2:00

very closely with not only your story

2:03

and your father's story in season

2:05

one with the Durham

2:07

murders in North Carolina

2:09

in season two but also your

2:12

distillery and in season

2:15

one you know when I met you

2:17

you were building this distillery and

2:20

really just trying to get it launched and get it off the ground

2:23

you and your son stone and

2:25

at the end of that season it was

2:28

kind of perfect timing because it

2:30

had officially opened and and did

2:33

really well you had a lot of success with that season

2:36

two and sort of a time

2:38

in between those two seasons things

2:41

changed and we discussed

2:43

in season two you know you having legal

2:46

troubles and big

2:49

altercation with the

2:52

building owners at

2:54

the distillery and so things have

2:56

changed now and you moved on and

2:58

I don't think a lot of the audience knows about

3:00

that so tell me where

3:02

we are right now and and how

3:04

this building that we're in even came to be

3:07

here's where we are shown

3:09

when I said I'm moving on a minute

3:13

the distillery has took so much out of our

3:15

quality of our lives not mention

3:17

money

3:18

my son has been having to

3:20

operate heavy equipment which he loves

3:22

doing that's the only thing you can

3:24

do make this enough money to pull yourself out

3:26

of a hole that we have got ourselves into

3:28

so the distillery is over

3:32

I've been for my lawyer

3:34

to negotiate

3:36

a deal to walk away give me all

3:39

back everything in there that's mine

3:42

forgive and forget and move on

3:45

I won't be burning down no houses I

3:47

won't be threatening to burning that house contrary

3:49

to popular beliefs I want

3:51

my life back so the stiller

3:54

is over and it seems it just

3:56

a turd this morning they feel the same

3:58

way sure they do They get that

4:00

damn building back after

4:02

now that it's viable and

4:05

I'm not gonna waste any more time worried

4:07

about it It's called spilt milk and

4:09

I was taught clean up spilt make and move on

4:12

because you can do nothing about spilt milk,

4:14

right? So where are we now

4:16

though? right now here

4:18

at sugar hill distillery and This

4:22

owner have made me an offer son

4:25

until you get your stuff straight You

4:27

have the keys in my place because I don't make whiskey

4:29

here

4:30

much. I'm more into beer Make

4:33

you product get it on the shelves.

4:35

Say you step. Yeah, and this place

4:38

is awesome. I mean I To

4:40

me I loved the the the the

4:43

distillery that you built with stone

4:46

had so much charm and character and

4:48

it had a connection to your father

4:51

because he robbed that building a couple times in the

4:53

70s and that was obviously

4:56

an understandably special to you guys

4:59

but

5:00

this place is More

5:03

what I think people would expect it's

5:05

got the restaurant and it's it's nice and

5:07

clean and you know We're sitting back here in the in

5:09

the with the stills and

5:11

you got all these big shiny steel

5:14

stills back here and it's just kind of more a professional

5:17

operation

5:19

And it's been good because I mean since you moved here

5:22

a couple months ago eight

5:24

months ago people you

5:26

know, we did and we did a Official

5:29

launch that's another thing has changed is Rock

5:33

solid is no more

5:34

True. What is it now? Red

5:37

clay should have been red clay start with Rock

5:40

solid was just there,

5:43

you know, I wrote my first I didn't write my

5:45

first book I put together my first pile

5:47

of stories that me and my father and my son

5:50

talked about every week and Charlie

5:53

rocks on it because we considered him rocks out

5:56

of gangster to rise. He stayed solid.

5:58

Okay,

5:59

that's what we're

5:59

So I'm gonna come from letter and

6:02

George's Dixon Moffitt because there's a mafia

6:04

everywhere you go But George's Dixon Moffitt

6:06

is unique. It was the first and

6:09

it is the original and in my opinion

6:11

is most interesting because Let's

6:14

face it 15 years of good

6:17

run is Pretty

6:20

damn impressive for corn. What do they call

6:22

them cornbread redneck? Whatever

6:28

Pretty good run for them boys to keep rubbing to

6:30

knickers get my quarter Yeah,

6:32

and I was just fortunate enough and

6:35

I call it fortunate I still do to

6:37

be a kid raising that without

6:40

picking up the side effects

6:42

of

6:44

Harming anyone or

6:45

take you one ain't mine. I Don't

6:49

count the arm robberies and stuff. I've been trying

6:51

to be my daddy They were businesses

6:54

insured like I was trained toes So

6:56

I always do it for a business this year don't

6:58

never get a man. You see what I'm

7:00

saying. That's a really good quote

7:04

I don't count the arm But

7:07

but

7:08

red clay now is The

7:10

official brand of whiskey. It's been rebranded

7:13

same same whiskey same recipe that

7:15

your family's used for Since

7:17

the Civil War we don't know no other but

7:20

it's it's red clay. You can't make them up Yeah,

7:23

and the idea now is to and

7:25

you're working on getting this in liquor

7:27

stores and in bars

7:29

and distributed That's that's the plan, right? We

7:32

just got an order for 1000 bottles

7:35

of whiskey in 2000 bottles

7:37

each of the brandy's so yeah, I say and I've

7:40

been that's why I stay is here six months left

7:42

having anyone I've been busting my butt.

7:44

Sure. It takes a hell of a lot of process

7:46

peaches and apples Firm

7:48

minimum this still them over and over

7:50

you have to live it breathe it like a golf game

7:53

You got to find that I'm on home. Think

7:55

about where you're sleeping Nothing. It

7:57

takes you a laugh over. So that's

7:59

we last seen each other except for that event

8:02

August 4th through 6th, 7th. I've

8:05

been here every day except Sunday.

8:08

Every day

8:09

making the whiskey, the brandies.

8:13

I got the order up. And

8:16

that's another thing, I kind of mentioned it

8:18

briefly and you mentioned it just now, but

8:20

the event we did here at

8:23

Sugar Hill Distillery to relaunch

8:26

your whiskey brand and to officially

8:29

launch Red Clay as a whiskey brand

8:32

was such a success.

8:35

It was amazing because we came

8:37

here and had songwriters

8:40

come down from Nashville that

8:43

had written songs inspired

8:45

by the podcast

8:48

and your story and your father's story and hundreds

8:52

of people showed up. There was a line for...

8:54

It blowed me away. Yeah, it was crazy. There

8:57

was a line for people wanting to get pictures

8:59

of you and all that. I'm still in the house today. I

9:01

could not believe that

9:04

all those good decent people

9:06

come from wherever and stood

9:08

in that hotline just

9:10

to be able to have Louis camaraderie

9:12

take a picture and conversate

9:15

with me for a few minutes. That's humbling. I

9:17

don't care who you are, I don't give a damn what

9:19

you think of yourself. If that don't get you,

9:21

boy, if it don't bring you down to earth, you

9:24

ain't human. Yeah. It's

9:26

amazing that people... I

9:28

had so many people telling me that

9:30

day and thanking me for doing this

9:32

project and thanking

9:34

me for telling your story and

9:36

working with you to tell your story and

9:40

hearing how it had affected so many

9:42

different people in so many ways on pretty

9:45

deep levels. Their relationships with

9:47

their families, with

9:49

their kids, with their parents, man,

9:52

that was... Yeah, you're right.

9:54

I mean, you have to be in all of that. The

9:57

reason that we're here today... and

10:00

have microphones on is because

10:02

since the end of

10:04

the second season of the podcast, which

10:08

profiles the Durham triple homicide

10:10

in Boone, North Carolina, Watauga

10:13

County, you know, the first time

10:15

that I interviewed you for

10:18

season one,

10:20

it was one of the first times I interviewed you and

10:22

we met at the distillery that you were just

10:24

building and a bunch of sheriffs

10:28

from North Carolina came up, you remember

10:30

that? And I think there was a GBI agent.

10:33

Sure. They were asking you a bunch of questions

10:36

about had your father ever

10:38

committed murders in North Carolina

10:40

and they were really, wouldn't give

10:42

any details and wouldn't mention names,

10:44

never mentioned the name Durham. And

10:47

we didn't really know what that was about, but

10:50

luckily, you know, I was there to record

10:52

that conversation. And two

10:54

years later, it would come back and we hear about

10:57

this case being closed,

10:59

this 50 year old cold case being closed

11:01

by the Watauga County Sheriff and it made

11:04

national news. I mean, it was, you

11:06

know, Fox News and ABC. And

11:09

I mean, just, it went everywhere. CNN

11:12

reported on it. Not me on my feet.

11:15

You and me both. First time I have been that surprised

11:18

since, I mean, it

11:20

was right up there where here, my father got another death sentence.

11:23

That's how it affected me.

11:25

And I mean, I think you even, you

11:28

were even interviewed by USA Today, weren't you? Yes,

11:30

yes I was. Yes, it was big. And

11:33

of course, so many people were reaching out

11:36

and we kind of felt like,

11:39

that was the whole reason for season two was

11:43

let's talk about this because

11:45

you have pretty strong feelings then and

11:47

you still do about your

11:49

father's alleged involvement in that murder. And

11:53

to kind of remind

11:55

people what happened, I mean, this family,

11:59

mother, father, and 18-year-old

12:02

son were murdered in their homes.

12:04

It was very brutal. They were strangled, tortured,

12:07

and drowned in the bathtub. And

12:09

that crime,

12:12

that murder, has sort of been a stain

12:14

on that town for 50 years. And

12:17

so closing that was a big deal. Billy

12:20

Wayne Davis, who has since

12:23

passed away on Christmas Day of,

12:25

I think-

12:26

The-

12:30

Yes, 2022. Yeah. Christmas Day, he

12:32

passed away

12:33

before that. Before that anniversary, 50-year anniversary

12:36

of them. Right. Right. When I say

12:38

them, that poor, rinsed couple,

12:40

I don't want to say them. That's so different, but Mr.

12:42

Miss Fleming.

12:45

So

12:46

he was interviewed

12:49

by Watauga County

12:51

sheriffs and the SBI, which

12:54

is kind of like the North Carolina

12:56

version of the GBI.

13:00

As well as Bob Ingram, who

13:02

I interviewed in the first season. He

13:04

was one of the guys who was involved in

13:07

investigating that Fleming murder

13:09

case.

13:10

And

13:12

they get a confession out of Davis

13:16

saying that he, along with your father and two

13:18

others, were responsible for that

13:20

murder in Boone, North Carolina in 1972. When

13:23

you say they, who do you mean?

13:27

Billy Wayne Davis. I mean, who do you mean got

13:29

the confession? Well, as

13:31

what we've learned from the news is

13:34

Bob Ingram and the Watauga

13:36

County sheriffs' department. You

13:38

have an issue with how

13:40

that all went down. You were

13:42

kind of vocal about that in

13:45

the second season. What

13:47

is your issue with that

13:50

confession and why are you so

13:52

adamant still that your father had nothing to

13:54

do with that

13:56

murder?

13:57

Listen. I

14:00

don't want to keep you here until this time next

14:02

week.

14:04

So I'll keep it short. Bill

14:07

Wayne Davis knew nothing. He

14:10

told him for six months that he knew nothing. After

14:12

they left my distiller in 2019, Bob Ingram says, let

14:19

me talk to him because I can talk

14:21

to anybody. You heard him say it. If

14:24

you go back and listen to, I think,

14:28

it's season five of Durham.

14:30

Second season. You hear Bob Ingram say.

14:33

Episode five. Thanks, sir. Four

14:35

or five. You hear him say. Here's

14:37

how he done it. Now, he covered his butt when he said this. He

14:42

said, I just sat there, and I just started

14:44

telling him every detail of the range

14:47

murder. And then I went

14:49

on into the Durhams. When

14:52

I got through, he said, now, you've done

14:54

your homework while you're here. And

14:57

I said, were you driving

14:59

the car the same way at the Riz?

15:02

And he looked at me, and

15:05

I told him, I can tell

15:07

the parole board you

15:09

cooperated or not. And

15:12

he said, I was driving. And yes,

15:14

it was the same. So Bob takes

15:17

off with that, goes back and tells the sheriff. The

15:20

sheriff goes, if there's this Davis and

15:22

David cooperated. Cooperated.

15:24

Not the first time, right? Not the first time. I

15:26

told him about the second time the sheriff went back.

15:28

After Bob, what done is magic. Right. Davis

15:31

concurred. Right. But let's

15:33

some clarity here, because

15:35

Bob got a confession, allegedly,

15:37

from Davis. Using his superpowers.

15:40

Yes, sir. Went to the. By

15:44

his old mouth, he offered him parole.

15:47

Right. But then went to the Watauga County

15:49

Sheriff's. They went and spoke with Davis.

15:52

And he said, no,

15:54

the first time, right? He said, no, adamantly

15:56

for three times they went and seen him before

15:59

Bob Ingram.

16:00

Now, after Bob Ingram came back and told them

16:02

that he got a confession, they went

16:04

back to see Davis. The next month, Davis

16:07

said, yeah, yeah, I was driving, they done it,

16:10

because they had a deal. Here, Stoney

16:12

is talking about the fact that Watauga County,

16:14

North Carolina, sheriffs visited Billy

16:17

Wayne Davis in prison to question

16:19

him about the Durham murders, to which Davis

16:21

denied any role in. Then, Bob

16:23

Ingram visited with Davis and solicited

16:25

the confession. When Watauga County went

16:27

back to see Davis again, he seemed

16:30

to again confess that the sheriff wasn't

16:32

satisfied and for a third time visited

16:34

Davis. This time, he

16:37

once again said he was not involved in the murders,

16:39

but the sheriff closed the case anyway. All

16:42

of those interviews with Davis were recorded but

16:44

have yet to be released to the public by Ingram

16:47

or Watauga County Sheriff Len Hageman.

16:49

Stoney had arranged to meet with Davis himself,

16:52

but one week before that scheduled meeting, Davis

16:55

died in prison on Christmas Day, 2022.

16:59

When that happened, immediately,

17:03

me and three others, including you said,

17:05

what they're asking for are the tapes they

17:07

said they couldn't release until Davis died.

17:10

Right. Now, and the tapes that you're talking about are

17:12

the interviews, the recorded interviews

17:15

before interviews between Bob Ingram

17:18

and Davis and

17:21

also the recorded interviews of the sheriff's department

17:23

in Watauga County. Three

17:25

of them were sheriff's, one of them. So

17:29

those are the interviews that you're talking about. And yeah,

17:31

we went back and we said, hey, because

17:33

I was actually told in an interview with the sheriff

17:36

that, like you said, I can't

17:38

give those out

17:39

while he's alive.

17:41

Then he died and I went and said, hey, what about now,

17:44

as well as some other people? Can we hear those interviews?

17:46

And they said, we don't have them. And

17:49

Bob Ingram said, I gave them

17:52

to the sheriff's department. I don't have. So

17:55

what do you make of that?

17:57

Well, it's called bullshit. Excuse me.

18:00

Bullshit, bullshit. Now,

18:03

the hometown writer there, Terry Harmon,

18:05

who's become a friend of mine. Terry Harmon

18:07

is a local historian from Boone, North Carolina,

18:10

who I interviewed in season

18:12

Even then, he raised questions about

18:14

the validity of Davis' confession and

18:17

Billy Burt's role in the murders. He's

18:19

been investigating the case for a book he's writing.

18:22

Terry has been making the same request, and

18:24

the sheriff told him he's thinking about it

18:27

all his time. It

18:29

stinks, high heaven, because

18:31

after he told so many people, can't

18:34

do it till after Davis dies, and

18:37

then, Davis dies, I'm

18:39

thinking about it, as if he's still investigating.

18:44

And then goes on further to say, I ain't got

18:46

him. And then, just last

18:48

month, do some kind of thing called

18:51

Blue Ridge Runs Red, and some

18:54

newscast I've seen, it

18:56

showed Bob Ingram putting the damn

18:58

tape that Davis in there and playing it for him.

19:01

Just like when he...

19:03

It's the Shane interviews that we have now.

19:05

We have the four Shane interviews. The sheriff released

19:08

those, I guess he said, well, I'll release the Shane

19:10

interviews. They're not quite in them now.

19:12

All that was pissed me off, because the first three

19:14

interviews, Shane knew nothing. It

19:17

tells a bigfoot. Stoney's talking

19:19

here about his youngest brother, Shane, who

19:21

provided information to Bob Ingram through

19:23

a series of interviews about his father's

19:25

role in the Durham murders.

19:27

Though Stoney feels it may

19:30

be the other way around, with Ingram providing

19:32

the information

19:33

to Shane. And the last one, who

19:35

was Bob brought him back in, lo and behold,

19:38

he must have had a vision from Bob, because he knew

19:40

their names, the inside of the house, the cars

19:42

he drove, the front of the law, the whole shaboom.

19:45

And that's what Bob took to the sheriff

19:47

and said, damn, Davis, we don't need him, because he

19:49

got his son telling all the details. And

19:52

the sheriff took it on himself to circumvent

19:54

the DA, the grand

19:56

jury, due process, and just Case

20:01

solved and closed. That's the first I've ever heard

20:03

of that. Even Joe Chapman when he closed

20:05

the case of dolls it mean you first done. He

20:08

went to the DA who went to the officials.

20:11

They run it through the circles, found

20:13

the validity of it to be true and

20:16

together done it. Not Bob

20:18

Ingram. It just it just sucks.

20:21

So I'm here to straighten

20:24

it out. Irrefutable.

20:28

That's why we're here. So

20:30

we're gonna go to a commercial when we come back.

20:33

We're gonna talk about what you've learned

20:35

since the end of season two

20:37

of the podcast. We'll be back.

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22:54

I'm sitting here talking with Stoney Burt

22:56

once again, and we

22:59

are discussing the Durham murder

23:02

case again from Boone, North Carolina, which

23:04

of course was closed officially

23:07

in February of 2022. Since

23:09

the end of

23:12

that podcast, the second season of the

23:14

podcast that we did, you

23:16

have learned some new information. You've stood

23:20

very firm on believing

23:23

the fact that your father was not

23:25

involved in that

23:26

murder in Boone, North Carolina.

23:29

Yes, sir. My common sense was talking at that point.

23:31

And what is it now that's talking? Damn facts.

23:34

And it was there all along. I had just forgotten

23:36

it and misplaced it. So tell me, tell

23:39

me about that then. You go back and listen

23:41

to episode 13 of season one. You'll

23:43

hear me call you and say,

23:45

Sean, I'm ready to talk about my mother. Yeah.

23:48

And then you'll hear me tell you that

23:51

my mother, when

23:53

I got out of prison, was going to Harrow Church in December

23:55

of 1979. And it didn't go

23:57

over well with me. You

24:00

hear me tell you that yeah, you're here. We tell

24:02

you that the first visit me here want to see my father

24:05

after I got out She spoke

24:07

up and bragged about looking out the window

24:10

my bedroom Linda by the way that

24:12

she was looking out And

24:14

seeing him blow Charlie Martin's head off And

24:17

I call it his name right there in your podcast Right.

24:21

I remember now That

24:23

was on a Thursday night. They were the third we

24:29

Not our lounge owner Says

24:31

Billy you see Charlie. Yeah, you

24:34

need to take care of him soon as Papa That's what I

24:36

said I'm repeat myself of what we

24:38

said on episode 13 and and

24:40

we you and I talked about this off

24:43

the record well before You

24:45

even called me and said I'm ready to talk about my mother.

24:48

Yeah, but I didn't relate that While

24:50

all this is going on with unit that didn't come

24:53

back to me now. They didn't come back to

24:55

me Because I'm human

24:57

and let's face it shown my mind has got so

25:00

many memories I can't pull it up like

25:02

a computer but more when he hears now hits Now

25:06

you heard me say We're

25:09

sitting in the bridge room Shawn and my mother speaks

25:12

up and tells my dad that she walked him

25:14

below Charlie's head off She

25:17

didn't know us Charlie And

25:20

my dad looked there. He said I'll be down.

25:22

Are you? And My

25:24

mother up the rest of me looked at me. He said damn

25:28

What

25:28

about that? How

25:30

the hell she do that? My mother

25:32

was bragging about her I

25:35

guess being rock-solid

25:38

That's another part of my 22 year old Past

25:42

that I've had to come to terms

25:45

with and when you say bragging she was bragging

25:47

to your mother in your eyes I think

25:50

she forgot I

25:51

wouldn't think about what it was. I

25:54

was hearing Yeah, you say people

25:56

do that if I'm talking to you and

25:58

I'm trying to impress you all you And,

26:00

uh, and a bystander,

26:02

a visitor sitting right here beside us, I

26:05

don't necessarily consider what he's

26:07

thinking. It makes no difference to

26:09

me. I'm trying to make

26:11

my point with you. Well,

26:15

that was the way it was. What she didn't

26:17

understand was she already

26:19

knew that I knew about Harold. She

26:22

come to me trying to explain it to me. Son,

26:25

I just, I need to talk to you, mom. I

26:27

really, I really don't want to talk about it. But

26:30

son, I love it. Mom, please

26:32

don't be. Damn it, mom. Hey, he

26:34

killed, he hired daddy to kill over 30

26:36

damn people. He just had burned up five

26:39

kids. I know it was an accident.

26:41

He was cocaine out of his damn head, but damn it, mama.

26:45

Can't you pick somebody worth a damn? That

26:47

was mine and her relationship. And

26:50

after that show, it went downhill to

26:52

the point where finally I just couldn't

26:55

be around her because she got worse

26:57

and worse with her. I

26:59

don't know how to put it with her. I

27:02

don't know words like narcissism, all

27:04

that stuff. If people talk about, I just

27:07

do know when somebody ain't real.

27:10

My mother's not real. My daddy's

27:13

real.

27:14

Everything he done was done with his eyes wide open.

27:16

He never excused himself. I

27:18

got a paper showing where he was sitting

27:21

in his damn prison cell and they raided

27:23

it. And when you raid a prison

27:25

cell and you got more than the

27:27

right amount of letters or pictures since they sent it all home.

27:30

So I got everything in his prison cell

27:32

from 1989, I believe it was.

27:36

And one of the things

27:38

I got in the mail was just a London

27:40

newspaper and it showed every man on death row, Atlanta

27:43

constitution. What's this doing

27:45

in here? And then I wrote it at the top of it. I got

27:47

it right here. He says, all

27:49

these son of bitches want to claim they

27:52

were poor. They were bees. But

27:55

why don't they just tell it

27:58

just like me. as

28:00

hell, done what they done, damn

28:03

everybody wanted to have an excuse. Well

28:06

that was my dad, he didn't

28:08

believe in excuses. He

28:11

done what he done with his eyes wide open, he was

28:13

never nothing to

28:15

blame, he had to pay the price

28:17

he knew it, he made his maker, that's

28:20

the difference with my dad and my mother. My

28:23

dad had retch on, he didn't

28:26

lose sleep, they didn't have to

28:28

put him with a psychiatrist, he

28:30

grieved over the ones he

28:32

killed for kingpins, looking

28:35

back he shouldn't have, he didn't grieve

28:37

over snitches, he would have done it again the day

28:39

before he died, even though he was saved,

28:42

if it was a snitch he'd do it for nothing. That

28:45

was my dad, he was honest in his

28:47

brutality.

28:48

Okay, so

28:51

let's talk then about going

28:53

back to the Durham case. There's a

28:56

color brown now, I'm getting sideways, I'm getting

28:58

sideways here. You do,

29:00

you have a tendency to do that. Okay,

29:03

I'm labeling back now. So

29:06

you learned information, we came

29:08

out with the second season, you were adamant

29:10

that your father was not involved in that, for many

29:12

reasons, the

29:15

way this murder was played out is not how

29:17

he would have done it. And you're

29:19

not the only one, by the way, you mentioned Terry

29:21

Harmon, who is a local

29:23

historian in Boone, he

29:26

has serious questions and actually I think at this point,

29:28

it's safe to say, does not believe your

29:30

dad had anything to do with this. I

29:32

can't put words in his mouth, but that's what I think. Yeah,

29:36

or

29:36

he certainly has big... I

29:38

told you, if you ever

29:41

lose your day job, so I go into therapy, fought you

29:43

enough for it, I told him, Terry, if

29:45

you ever lose your job, go into investigation

29:48

because you're pretty damn good man, because

29:50

he is undercover stuff.

29:52

Yeah, and let's talk about that, because

29:55

that's why we're here, right, in this episode.

29:59

Tell me the tell me about the

30:02

information that you learned regarding

30:05

your father and Charlie Martin

30:08

that relates to

30:10

The Durham murder case and why

30:13

you say your father not only wasn't

30:15

but couldn't have been Involved

30:17

in that. Okay to tell you that

30:19

I got a brief to tell you this the reason we done

30:22

episode 13 Is that my brother

30:24

and my mother? Shane Was

30:27

so jealous and

30:29

for no other reason than what I call can able

30:31

Jim is they were so jealous of the podcast

30:34

that we done And my books that

30:36

I wrote and did not mention my brothers

30:38

or my sister I've done it because I knew if I'd

30:40

have mentioned the name they'd sue me and I also

30:43

done it I respect because but they'd

30:45

always said if you can't say that good just don't

30:47

say nothing at all, son So

30:50

I purposely left that out. Like I tell you

30:52

not to use my mother's name And

30:55

ain't good enough Shane come to my stillery

30:58

We're writing the book me and mom About

31:02

the truth of dad. I said define

31:04

truth Well, let me

31:06

put it this way Dad

31:08

is your hero. Mama's mine Why

31:12

they gotta be a hero Shane? Are

31:14

you saying

31:15

so he gave me one page to look at I?

31:18

read that one page and it was so far

31:20

and Mars like She

31:23

was 11 when he married her and

31:25

he left her with $30 that she Worked

31:28

five jobs and had to walk

31:31

uphill both ways in snow and then

31:33

only no no And I said

31:36

Shane let me tell you something and you tell

31:38

mom if y'all won't write

31:40

a book Praising mom

31:43

to high heaven on all four. Just don't get

31:45

my opinion on it But

31:47

you're not gonna write a book Building

31:49

her up step it on him. Don't

31:52

do that away I'll put a stop to it

31:54

and you won't have the way I did

31:56

Well,

31:57

he told me go to hell

31:59

I called you up and I said, Sean, I'm ready to talk about my

32:02

mother. So when I told

32:04

you about her telling my

32:06

dad, she watched him blow

32:08

Charlie Martin's head off. And I

32:10

told the world that she was going with Harold

32:12

Jackson and taking my brother's sisters. I stopped.

32:15

I said, enough. So the

32:17

question was,

32:19

you learned information about

32:22

your father's involvement in,

32:24

in Charlie Martin's death. And tell

32:27

me about that and why that

32:30

in your eyes makes it impossible for

32:32

your father to have been involved in the

32:34

Durham murders.

32:35

I learned by going back to

32:37

my original book, put together in 2013, page

32:41

one safe state, one six nine, that Charlie Martin

32:45

was abducted

32:48

from

32:49

respecer's night out lounge on

32:52

February the third, Thursday

32:54

night. It was never seen again. I

32:57

already knew this. I

33:00

had forgotten it. I'm

33:03

human.

33:06

And the way,

33:08

and they're not smart enough. They ain't going to sit here and take

33:10

credit for remembering it. I got a text of

33:12

a guy named Terry Harmon, who's

33:14

a, just a, just a epitome

33:17

of a Mayberry good citizen right there in

33:19

Boone. And he's been writing

33:21

the book on the murders because

33:23

it's fascinating his whole life. And

33:26

he's come down here and seen me a couple of times. I

33:28

think he's seen about everybody involved. You,

33:30

the, the, the Rens family and

33:33

everybody likes him. And I think everybody that

33:35

meets him trust him. He's a man of integrity. I

33:37

can tell you that he texts me and he said,

33:40

Sony, have you seen this? And show me a picture

33:43

of Charlie Martin's tombstone. Anyone

33:46

on the side, his

33:49

wife has confirmed that if I were the third

33:52

is the day he won't miss Charlie

33:54

Martin. Charlie Martin's widow has

33:56

confirmed it. She's still living.

33:59

And I.

33:59

said this to him I said son of a

34:02

be there you

34:04

know

34:05

now I remember I told about

34:08

it in my damn podcast and I wrote

34:10

about it in my book let me go back he said

34:12

all you don't have to is on page 116 169 I've done

34:14

done it so Terry been able

34:18

to look objectively without emotion had

34:21

already nailed what I should have gotten the

34:23

first month but here it is eight

34:25

months later and I'm having Terry tell me so

34:28

I'll forever be in all of

34:30

his investigative views

34:33

so to put it very plainly

34:38

Charlie Martin was killed

34:40

by your father on February 3rd 1972

34:42

the same

34:46

night that the

34:48

Durham murders were committed and you know that's

34:50

a five hour drive yes from

34:53

me I want to set the stage a little

34:55

bit because that's from from the

34:58

winder area that's that's a good

35:00

five hour drive keep in mind that

35:02

would have happened that on a Thursday

35:04

night see rich best result Wednesday Thursday

35:06

Friday 30s 30s it was a dead

35:09

night perfect

35:10

time for him to say Charlie my car what my cyclone

35:12

won't crank I'm gonna give him a right to stay them what you

35:14

did so

35:17

keep in mind I had to be between 10 and 1

35:19

because

35:20

Reese opened at 9

35:23

and closed at 1 well

35:25

the murders happened between 10 and 1 didn't

35:28

it I think the Durham murders was

35:31

around between 9 30 and 10 o'clock okay well

35:34

it's a possibility but

35:36

it's not just that he goes on in the

35:38

Jim West report and the newspapers say

35:41

the following Friday night 11 he got Carolyn

35:44

Cooper for the same reason

35:46

and reason shown in Jim West report right

35:49

here she was setting information

35:52

her brother Jim Baird was so that

35:55

is a given we're

35:58

gonna go to a commercial and

35:59

We'll talk more about this when we come back.

36:25

So,

36:30

Stoney, we've talked about the fact that Charlie Martin

36:32

was killed on the night of

36:55

February

37:00

3rd, 1972, the same night that

37:02

the Durham murders were committed

37:04

a five-hour drive

37:07

away in Boone, North Carolina,

37:09

and of course that night horrible weather,

37:11

snowstorm, blizzard conditions, so

37:14

potentially even making that a longer

37:16

drive than the normal five hours

37:18

because I've done the drive and

37:21

you know you have to go through the mountains. So, getting

37:25

to there from the Winder area is

37:27

going to be a long drive if you

37:29

were to commit then a murder which is

37:31

seemingly happening at the same time

37:34

or in the same time frame roughly

37:36

that Charlie Martin's murder was being committed in

37:39

and then you'd have to drive you know I

37:41

guess my point is even if

37:44

it's only a similar line or utility frame

37:46

well it takes preparation for a murder sure

37:49

and I'm just I'm just saying this have to be putting

37:51

the wheel fast I'm just saying

37:53

well was down-mudded I'm

37:55

just saying for if

37:59

someone is to make the argument that okay, well,

38:01

he could have been a part of both murders.

38:04

I think even, I think

38:07

that's impossible. Number one, because

38:09

of the distance, the preparation,

38:11

as you mentioned, the weather was

38:14

a factor and.

38:17

It is supposed to Charlie's body. Yeah.

38:19

If you were, if he was in a whale dynamite,

38:21

yeah. On

38:24

the same night. Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. You

38:26

damn sure don't, you damn sure don't

38:28

kill somebody. And then wait two, three

38:30

days for them to stop you with a damn body in the trunk.

38:33

You know, you get into where you,

38:36

and that night was spontaneous because

38:38

Reese said you say Reese was like, Ruth,

38:40

he had people call him. And when Reese

38:43

got the call that Charlie

38:45

Martin, when he was cooperating with

38:47

police officers, he immediately

38:49

told daddy, cause he knew that Charlie knew shit

38:53

and recent hired that he did it. He just

38:55

told daddy, you need to get rid of now. Reese didn't have

38:57

him killed. Understand that he didn't

39:00

say do this. He was a messenger. He just

39:02

said, you need to take care of that. So let me ask

39:04

you this. What kind of information

39:06

would Charlie Martin have had that would. Well,

39:09

according to Jim West report, Charlie Martin

39:12

was set to meet him and Howard Austin, that

39:14

very night and arcade to

39:16

give them information

39:18

on whiskey steals and information

39:20

on where Willie Hester,

39:22

his cousin was buried. Right.

39:25

Which of course was killed by your father. Yeah.

39:28

And he was found in a 79, 78. And

39:31

you showed me the, the Jim West report,

39:33

which, you know, I knew

39:36

about that. I was aware of that from

39:39

the time that we met really and started season

39:41

one, but you would never let me read it because

39:45

for whatever reason you said I wasn't. It's awful.

39:47

I'll do murders. It's awful. Yeah. And

39:50

even when you showed it to me, when we did season

39:52

two, you let me read that entire

39:54

report, which I did front to back, but

39:56

you wouldn't let me even take a copy of it. No.

39:59

Um, so.

39:59

Yeah, and it does. I mean it lays

40:02

out in chronological order. I there were a

40:04

couple little clips I'm just point of view the

40:06

harshest point of view they are

40:08

True. No, and that was directly

40:11

written After an interview.

40:14

Well, it is with we were in

40:16

the Barrie County jail John Robert Austin

40:19

was a sheriff Jim West had billow

40:21

ain Davis there off human immunity after

40:23

my dad's bank robbery got turned over St.

40:26

Davis One of us is gonna die I

40:28

don't know whose family is gonna get first You've got to do

40:30

something put me right away if you

40:32

will put him away on one of these murders You

40:35

get muted everything you tell me

40:37

will be immunity This

40:39

is that report Davidson's way is talking

40:42

and your John Roberts Not

40:44

a second to him. What do you call that woman with that

40:46

thing in her mouth talking? She's over

40:48

there. What is it court court record?

40:50

Is it a manographer? Yes John

40:53

Roberts not for that's a report.

40:56

That's the report. It is done like that.

40:58

The words are is that

41:01

yeah Done by John Robert the sheriff's

41:03

the novaker. Well, and there's no there's

41:06

no doubt about that I mean I read the report

41:08

and it's if there are a report to

41:11

the letter in Shane's interview. Did you remember that? Yeah,

41:14

so

41:16

The reality is and I guess to put this in

41:18

in the most simple terms possible

41:22

We Spencer relayed the message

41:24

that he received from Ruth Chansey

41:26

No from his own snitch, we

41:29

spent him we Spencer had way more money

41:31

the route He wouldn't in whiskey Reese

41:33

was in business. He has

41:36

slot machines pool tables. The

41:38

man was a genius He did not kill

41:40

people what my dad does for him was their

41:42

business, but he did not hire my baby kill

41:44

Charlie Martin He just simply told my

41:46

dad it just come to me from my

41:49

source Charlie is working with the law.

41:52

I know Charlie's in with you on

41:54

some things You need to take care of soon as

41:56

I did he said how soon he's as soon as possible

41:59

immediately Charlie, my

42:01

cyclone won't crank when you give me a ride home.

42:03

So,

42:04

Reese, relay the message to

42:06

your dad that Thursday,

42:08

February 3rd, 1972. Charlie

42:13

Martin needs to be dealt with in

42:15

his words. And

42:18

your father does that night, which

42:20

we know now that it's been confirmed

42:22

by Charlie Martin's widow that

42:25

he was killed the night of February 3rd. Yes.

42:28

Your father put him in a well that night

42:31

and I did it. Where? In

42:33

Gwinnett County. In Gwinnett County. And

42:37

simultaneously in that same

42:39

few hours, roughly between 9 30 and 10, 10 30,

42:44

it's been narrowed down to in Boone,

42:46

North Carolina, five hours away. Give

42:48

or say. Troy Hall was giving them people that that that's

42:50

how yeah. Troy Hall was doing that himself.

42:53

He didn't hire Jack Doodley. He didn't have to turn.

42:56

I thought about it.

42:57

He hired no one that would

42:59

not have stayed a secret. Nobody's that

43:01

smart. Look, my, my father's ordered

43:04

little organs. They were as smart as they come

43:07

in no way that would have stayed. Troy Hall

43:09

done it. The phone call tells it all.

43:12

He had to make up a phone call to give himself

43:14

out of my where he was. And then because of the

43:16

experience of law enforcement, they went for it. But

43:19

even Bob England said it.

43:21

That's preposterous.

43:23

Everybody of today's law for, but says

43:26

Troy Hall did it. He did. He was 19 year

43:28

old. That's when you the most deadly. The man just

43:31

had wrote him out of the wheel. He

43:33

had to get that wheel to

43:35

think that for that day that he

43:38

heard he's written out of the wheel, he could contact

43:40

Billy bird of all people and have

43:42

him down there immediately to take

43:44

care of that for him and with

43:46

no money and not get killed

43:49

his damn self or messing with a man like

43:51

that. It's your liturgous. What's

43:53

more liturgous is my dad would

43:55

tell my young baby

43:57

brother that he fell so badly. my

44:00

mother treating him like she did cuddled

44:04

him, he said, not making him grow up. For

44:07

him to be telling my brother about such an awful

44:09

murder is unimaginable.

44:11

And

44:13

so you and I met here

44:15

with a Watauga County

44:19

Sheriff's deputy or investigator, Carolyn

44:21

Johnson. And you told

44:23

this information to her. I was here for that. She

44:25

told me the sheriff was coming. That's why I was

44:28

here. Yeah. I was here for that

44:30

conversation and you

44:32

presented this evidence, everything

44:34

in the Jim West report,

44:36

what the widow confirmed. Gave

44:39

her a copy of everything. And she did say,

44:41

and if I can pull it up, I'll play a clip

44:43

of it. She did say, it's

44:46

very interesting. It's very compelling. And it

44:48

does need to be looked into. She was going to pass that

44:50

information onto the sheriff. Has

44:52

the sheriff contacted

44:54

you or made any statement regarding

44:57

the information that he was given? No,

44:59

the next time I,

45:00

all along, I held out on

45:03

the grounds that I put

45:05

my conscience clean. I don't want it down a good law man.

45:08

I believe he was due until I seen him on

45:11

river runs, buzz runs red

45:13

and blue ridge. And when I see him grandstanding on there,

45:16

I now have a very low opinion to the sheriff. I

45:18

want him to know that I know

45:20

now that just like a lot of people

45:22

in his town does I've heard from him. Know

45:25

that he's human.

45:26

He wants notoriety. He wants to be real

45:29

late that he wants to be the man who saw the crime. I

45:31

now know that he is traded. He's in tell you really

45:33

for notoriety. Well, let's talk about then

45:36

you took that information

45:38

to another sheriff. Two

45:41

sheriffs. Okay. Tell me about that

45:43

and tell me, tell me about what the response

45:45

was and where that

45:48

information, you know, what's, what's the

45:51

situation now? What's is

45:53

that information being looked at seriously?

45:56

Well, yeah. Yes. It's like being like that seriously.

46:00

Who did you take that to? First I went to

46:02

the Winder sheriff, the one who was sheriff

46:04

then. And

46:07

he said, this is a no-brainer.

46:09

You should take this to Jackson

46:12

County sheriff because that's where he's from. She's

46:15

the one and she cares about

46:17

it. That's who you are. Janice Magnum. That's

46:20

where Charlie Martin lives. That's

46:23

where he's buried. I took it to her. Well

46:25

I called her. I said, Janice,

46:27

me and her know each other. We're not friends. We

46:30

close acquaintances. We like each other. She

46:33

knows I'm not a criminal. I know she's a good

46:35

sheriff. I respect her. And

46:37

that's it. I said, Janice,

46:39

would you like to close

46:42

two murder cases in your county? She said, who

46:44

is it? And I said, Charlie Martin and Carolyn

46:46

Cooper. She said, I most certainly would because

46:49

Charlie Martin is a, I'm

46:52

a friend with either his widow or one

46:54

of his people. I forget your high butcher words.

46:58

On Monday, bring what you got. So

47:00

I went down there and I showed her everything.

47:03

Everything. And she took it off.

47:05

And she said, okay, I'm going to get with the DA and I'm

47:08

going to get with the GBI and

47:10

get clarification on all this. And

47:13

thank you. And I left. And that

47:15

was four weeks ago. And she

47:19

called the Monroe sheriff and

47:21

talked to him about it. And he said, yeah, he was

47:23

pretty straight with me on the, on the, on

47:26

the Dawes murder. And he

47:28

told her how he went about closing it.

47:30

Give the DA grandeur, all

47:33

that information they

47:35

give him compared to what was there. So

47:38

that's where it's at. So when you call her, I hope it's finished.

47:41

Well, I spoke with her and here's

47:43

a little bit of that conversation.

47:45

After Stoney reached out to me just

47:48

recently about, about Charlie

47:50

Martin.

47:52

Of course, I reached out to

47:55

the chief deputy in White County

47:57

who was a GBI that worked on that case.

48:00

Bob Ingram. Yeah, Bob. I

48:02

reached out to Bob because I

48:04

don't have any records at

48:06

the sheriff's office about Charlie's disappearance

48:09

as far as the sheriff's office

48:11

having even a missing report

48:14

on him. We don't have anything.

48:16

I remember

48:17

when it all happened. I remember when he was

48:19

found.

48:20

So I reached out to Bob Ingram and

48:22

I reached out to some family because when he went

48:25

missing, they lived in Clark County.

48:28

He worked for the University of Georgia as a

48:30

maintenance guy. And

48:32

Bob was going to pick up the file from the GBI

48:35

and I got

48:37

a message that Bob got the

48:39

file and I intend

48:42

to meet with him. It's

48:44

odd, I think, you know, Stoney, there's

48:47

a difference to him.

48:49

Obviously, he knows his father was a murderer and

48:52

has done all these horrible things.

48:54

I think there's a difference to him of murdering

48:58

someone and torturing

49:00

someone in the way that the Durhams were.

49:02

So as odd as it might sound to say,

49:04

well, hey, look, he couldn't have been doing this murder because he was doing

49:07

another one. He justifies that because

49:09

the Durhams were so terribly

49:12

tortured before they were murdered. You

49:15

know, when Stoney came to me, I just really didn't know.

49:17

That's why I reached out to Bob. I didn't really know which way

49:19

to go. I didn't.

49:22

So clearly not the answer that Stoney

49:24

was hoping for yet,

49:26

but at least Jackson County Sheriff Janice

49:28

Mangum is checking on it.

49:30

So where do you think this

49:33

case stands now, the Durham

49:35

murders? I mean, what do you think, what would you

49:37

like to see happen given

49:40

that you've provided this information? And

49:43

if the sheriff of Jackson County, Georgia

49:45

does close this case of Charlie

49:47

Martin, that would mean saying

49:50

that your father was responsible for his

49:52

murder February 3rd, 1972. What

49:56

would you like to see happen then? I didn't know

49:58

what I was actually into.

49:59

Until two days ago, I thought

50:04

My mother nor shame

50:08

or not Bob Ingram could

50:10

possibly get on the stand

50:12

and discuss any of this under

50:14

us They would have to commit

50:16

perjury or tell them to sit I would like

50:19

to be able to challenge it You know first

50:21

I tell you I'll pay for the light of test.

50:23

It's all up. That ain't gonna happen.

50:26

I Don't know how

50:28

to do it shown but

50:30

it needs to be

50:32

due process of some sort

50:35

now you can't just take and

50:37

say

50:39

Al Capone kills so and so so

50:41

let it be written so to be done you ain't ram

50:44

it season Egypt

50:47

Sheriff can't do that. I don't think

50:50

I mean he's done it but and a lot of

50:52

people raised the hell about it

50:54

Why won't he prove it? Why won't

50:56

he? Shut me up. Why

50:58

won't he why why did they

51:00

keep their head in the hole like an ostrich? What I was it

51:03

You will never hear Bob

51:06

Ingram let Shane get to where anybody can ask

51:08

you a question You know see Phil judges about my

51:10

mother to be asked a question you want to Because

51:13

it's hard to keep up with a lie and they wouldn't

51:15

speak three words until they told them to see them because

51:17

they're not Good liars. Nobody is nobody's

51:20

good enough liar to be held on a scrutiny To

51:23

be asked question by an intelligent man like

51:25

you or many other people

51:28

out there unbiased To

51:30

ask the hard questions. I will

51:33

I'll be questioned back to back about 50

51:37

Let's do it

51:41

Why is it so important to you that your father

51:44

is not associated with this particular crime

51:46

because you've told me and The world

51:48

at this point of so many murders

51:50

that he has been Involved

51:53

in and so, you know that I'm not trying

51:55

to say that he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer You

51:58

know that I'm not trying to say he wouldn't

51:59

cable anything. What I am

52:02

trying to say, what I'm gonna say is I

52:05

refuse to let especially

52:08

someone of Bob Ingram,

52:12

my mother most of all, Shane

52:14

and now the comrade the sheriff of

52:17

their moral fiber pump

52:20

themselves up like pompous asses by

52:23

putting another horrible

52:25

murder on my father the same way

52:27

the original Bob

52:30

Ingram seen with Jim West do is the

52:32

rinse trial but that kid all

52:34

these people show but he

52:36

did not torture any

52:38

of them if you take away the rinse

52:42

then you see a cold-blooded murder you don't

52:44

see a son of a bitch out there gleefully

52:47

torturing people you don't see it anything

52:51

you want to say to the people not not associated

52:53

with all this stuff just anything you think about

52:56

you know I do I do I want

52:58

to say so much I can't you

53:01

if I could if I could if I could put

53:03

a color to how grateful I am I had

53:06

to invent one people who treated me

53:08

so good I have not had

53:10

one person mistreat

53:14

me shown or talk down to me

53:16

hey you know I

53:18

thought I seen more bracelet is this don't earth

53:21

when I met with the rinse family but

53:24

this then I've come to find out

53:27

Sean this is a lot of decent people in this world and

53:30

all the people have come see me not

53:32

one redneck lab mouthful

53:35

has been with them they've been decent people

53:37

and I've come and learned this decent

53:39

people of all it was we'll come see you

53:42

know what y'all call the narcissist is a

53:44

savage people they don't give that nobody but

53:47

they're not going to see nobody so

53:49

when people come to this ole mission I take

53:51

you so serious and

53:53

I enjoy especially when the older folks I

53:55

can listen to stuff myself

53:59

I sincerely

53:59

Think every one

54:02

of them and it'd

54:04

be my idea of Some

54:07

level heaven for me to do this the rest of my

54:09

life. Just meet good people and

54:11

feel good about it That's a

54:13

good stuff of life Well

54:16

said well, that's Sony

54:19

and Sean Kind

54:21

and off and we got a little

54:25

Bloody Mary here and I'll toast to you Here's

54:27

the in the red clay. There we go. There we go

54:29

Cheers buddy till next time

54:50

So you've heard stony sharing

54:52

the information about his father's alleged

54:54

role in Charles Martin's murder on

54:56

February 3rd If

55:00

this case is closed and Billy Burt is

55:02

in fact implicated in that murder

55:05

And it almost certainly means that he was not

55:07

present at the Durham home as the

55:09

two murders happened during the same Approximate

55:11

window of time five hours away

55:13

from each other. I'll report back

55:16

when I know more But what do you think?

55:19

Let me know on social media at Sean

55:21

Kipe official or by visiting Sean

55:23

Kipe comm where you can find out more

55:25

about all of my Podcasts until

55:28

next time In

55:43

the red clay is a production of imperative

55:46

entertainment It was created written and

55:48

reported by me Sean Kipe and

55:50

I wrote and recorded the original music score

55:53

Executive producers are Jason hoke and

55:55

Gino falsetto story editor is

55:57

Jason hoke sound designed by Shane

55:59

Freeman, cover art and design by Gina

56:02

Sullivan.

56:03

Season 2 of In the Red Clay, Durham,

56:05

is a six episode series with new episodes

56:08

available every Monday. To keep

56:10

up with this and my other podcasts,

56:12

follow me on social media at Sean

56:14

Kipe. Have questions? Email

56:17

us at podcasts at imperativeentertainment.com.

56:20

If you like the series, tell your friends and

56:22

leave us a review. Thanks for listening.

56:28

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56:30

on the Mike Drop podcast. He's the co-CEO

56:33

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56:35

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56:38

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56:40

They trained you how to shoot your weapon, so we're gonna train you

56:42

on the things you've never been trained for, how to come home from

56:44

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56:46

from it, we try to rebrand it, reduce

56:49

or dismiss the cost. Mike

56:53

Drop. Raw. Unfiltered. Intellectually

56:56

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56:57

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