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I'm Teresa Aou. Welcome to

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In The Making, where I

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have conversations with creatives, solopreneurs,

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and experts that explore the

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0:53

designer, animator, and tinkerer,

0:55

Kelly Anderson is all

0:57

about transformation. Her paper

1:00

engineering work is full of

1:02

magical tactile items like a

1:04

book that becomes a camera

1:07

or a wedding invitation that

1:09

becomes a playable record. It

1:11

is absolutely amazing. Kelly's

1:14

career has also transformed as

1:16

the creator economy opens up

1:19

new ways of connecting with

1:21

clients, customers and fans. Welcome,

1:23

Kelly. I'm so glad you're

1:26

here. I'm happy to be here. Thanks

1:28

for having me. Our theme

1:30

this month is transformation, which

1:32

characterizes so much

1:35

of your paper engineering work.

1:38

What is it that

1:40

intrigues you about turning

1:42

paper into 3D objects?

1:45

It's like one above origami. You

1:47

know, I love origami, but this

1:49

is another level. Yeah,

1:52

I love origami too. I think the

1:54

thing that is so interesting to me

1:56

about paper is that we live

1:58

in the super high tech. context where we

2:01

assume that paper can do nothing, but

2:03

you can roll paper

2:05

into a cone and make sound,

2:08

something that you can control. You can

2:10

use paper as an ingredient

2:12

in a paper record player. And

2:15

I kind of, you know,

2:17

I feel like at once like out

2:20

of touch with my time and then also

2:22

kind of bringing back the

2:24

exact thing that I think people need in

2:26

this moment. Yeah, I have conversations

2:28

all the time with creatives and many

2:31

of them actually start with pen and paper,

2:33

you know, or pencil and paper because

2:36

the original way

2:39

of creating art, I think, you know,

2:41

before they bring it into a digital

2:43

tool, they always start sketching,

2:45

they say in their little sketchbooks or

2:47

just a piece of paper they find

2:49

around. So I think it's so important.

2:52

Tell me about your process. How

2:55

much is digital and how

2:57

much is it working with paper

2:59

and scissors? Yeah,

3:01

I jump back and forth

3:03

pretty radically between like analog

3:05

materials and digital materials and

3:08

definitely believe in that idea

3:10

that I

3:12

think Robin Sloan coined it. It's like

3:14

kind of like dancing the flip flop

3:16

where you go back and forth and

3:19

find new possibilities that don't exist in

3:21

one realm or the other. So I

3:24

kind of have to giggle a little bit

3:26

when people ask me about my process because

3:28

it's very non-linear. It's almost

3:30

frantically, you know, back and forth between

3:32

those two realms. But if

3:34

I were to work on a pop-up project,

3:37

for example, I might start

3:40

by looking at other pop-up

3:42

books, seeing how other artists

3:44

like use the basic mechanisms

3:46

in that pop-up book toolkit

3:48

and then imagine what it

3:50

could be. And I

3:52

tend to start, like you were

3:54

saying, the same way where I am just

3:56

working with paper and pen, completely

3:59

un- mediated material for bringing

4:01

it into a vector

4:03

application like an Adobe Illustrator to draw

4:06

exactly like where those cut and fold

4:08

lines will need to be. I

4:10

love that back and forth. Your newest

4:12

work involves Resograph printing

4:14

and animation. That sounds

4:16

so cool, but I

4:19

am not the one to describe it

4:21

for sure. Can you tell my audience

4:23

what that is and why it

4:25

resonates with you? It

4:27

looks like a copy machine. It looks like

4:29

it would be super boring. But

4:31

it's kind of like if you took a

4:33

silk screen studio and like trapped them in

4:35

that beige box. So the

4:37

process is most similar to silk screen

4:40

and that it's burning a stencil. But

4:42

it's doing it in this kind of

4:44

like fast food way. So

4:46

with silk screen, you need the silk

4:48

screen. You need to burn an image out

4:50

of it and then you can press ink

4:53

through it. And with the

4:55

Reso, it does all of that like within

4:57

the box of the machine and it uses

4:59

rice paper to create the stencil. It's a

5:01

lot faster and more immediate. And

5:03

so if you start printing and you're like, you know

5:05

what? That color

5:07

combination, the saturation isn't perfect. I

5:09

need to tweak something. You

5:12

can tweak it in your file and then send

5:14

it again. And so it's really, really good for

5:17

experimentation. I

5:20

discovered this technique just by playing

5:22

around with my friend's machine and

5:24

wondering, wouldn't this be possible? Where

5:27

I create animation frames in

5:30

the typical way. I usually use After Effects,

5:33

honestly. Sometimes I do like a Photoshop like

5:35

GIF. But then

5:38

you can take those frames, you

5:41

can arrange them on a contact sheet,

5:44

and then you can print them out on the Reso. So

5:46

the Reso has an 11 by 17 printable area. So

5:49

just imagine a grid with rows

5:52

and columns of frames. Once

5:54

it's printed, you scan it back in

5:56

and sort of reconstitute those frames, but

5:58

they carry with them. that

6:01

little bit of analog noise and

6:03

wiggle and the little dots

6:05

from the print releasing from

6:09

the drum, the stray hair that fell

6:12

into the printer. I like

6:14

to say that it's a way of laundering

6:16

animations that feel too digital or

6:18

too cold, and it's a way

6:21

to make them feel more organic,

6:23

more touchable. The reason is so

6:25

fun because it has all of

6:27

these fluorescent colors and spot colors,

6:30

cornflower blue, fluorescent orange. So,

6:32

yeah, it's fun. I've been

6:34

teaching classes online for a

6:36

couple of years now. It's

6:39

a weekend workshop and people come and I

6:41

tell them they have to bring some kind

6:43

of moving image, whether it's an iPhone video

6:45

or an animation they crafted. We

6:49

prep the art together. It takes like three

6:51

hours for everyone to do it on their

6:53

computers. But then we'll print

6:56

it in the print shop, scan it back in,

6:58

and then they put it back together again. And

7:00

at the beginning, I was kind of like, because

7:02

of the technique I came up with, and I

7:05

was like, what do I do with this? And it

7:07

really has been so fulfilling

7:09

to share it with other people and see

7:11

what other people's spins are

7:14

on it and what potential people

7:16

see in the medium. So I

7:18

think that there's sometimes a tendency to be

7:21

a bit proprietary about things, but I'm really

7:23

happy that I opened it up because now

7:26

I see that there's like way more

7:28

possibility for exploration than I would have

7:30

imagined if it was just me making

7:32

it. Yeah, yeah. There's

7:35

nothing like collaborating and also sharing

7:37

your process sometimes with

7:40

others. I heard you say in

7:42

interviews that writing about your work

7:44

can help you find your next

7:47

project. How does that work? Are

7:49

you journaling or is it being published? Are you

7:51

thinking of doing a book? What do

7:53

you mean by that? I was thinking

7:56

in particular of

7:58

the first project that got me in into

8:00

paper engineering, which was

8:02

this wedding invitation project

8:05

where we made a wedding

8:07

invitation that was literally a paper record

8:09

player. And it was one of

8:11

those things where I was just following my intuition.

8:14

We thought, oh, this is cool. This will be cool. That

8:17

feeling, this will be cool, doesn't feel

8:20

like a serious, professional

8:22

instinct. But it's

8:25

actually the thing. And I don't

8:28

think I would have realized that until

8:30

right after that record player project came

8:32

out, I was asked

8:34

to give a TEDx talk.

8:37

And so I was like, all

8:39

right, well, I really need to figure out why

8:41

it was cool. But

8:44

it was actually really helpful

8:46

for me because I realized

8:48

that there was a whole

8:50

lot of really interesting questions

8:52

there that I had intuited

8:54

but hadn't explicitly written

8:56

an artist statement about or anything. And it really

8:58

helped me figure out what I was doing and

9:01

why it was important and helped

9:03

me get to the next project.

9:05

So shifting to careers, I

9:07

know you studied studio art and art

9:09

history in graduate school at Pratt when

9:12

you got to New York. What

9:15

did you think your career was going

9:17

to be like compared to how it

9:19

turned out or where you are today?

9:22

I think in high school, I had

9:25

seen some video about Andy Warhol living

9:27

in an artist's loft factory, hanging out

9:29

with the Velvet Underground with the Mylar

9:31

balloons floating around. And I was like,

9:34

I want to go to New York and do that. I

9:39

studied painting. I didn't really know.

9:42

I had associated design with advertising. And

9:45

I was like, oh, it's for advertising.

9:47

I don't want to do advertising.

9:50

So I think the most surprising thing about

9:52

my career is that I'm definitely

9:54

a designer, but

9:58

I've gotten too much. master's

10:00

degrees before I figured that out.

10:03

I had to get into the real world

10:05

and realize that, oh, I'm not

10:08

super interested in making really

10:10

expensive one-off objects for rich

10:12

people to buy. I'd prefer

10:14

to make multiples. I'd prefer

10:16

to make things that,

10:18

you know, can live online for

10:20

free. It just seemed like a

10:22

more hands-on and active way to engage

10:25

with the world. I didn't want to hide in my

10:27

studio for 11 months out of

10:29

the year and then just come out and say, ta-da, I have

10:31

a show. Yeah, I

10:33

also heard you speak

10:35

about the difference between being

10:37

an artist and being a designer because people

10:40

have asked you, are you an artist or

10:42

a designer? Can you explain a little more

10:44

about that? I think the

10:46

difference in being an artist

10:48

or being a designer is almost like about

10:51

the scope of the problem you're

10:53

dealing with. So design

10:55

is very much tuned

10:58

into the specific parameters of

11:00

a problem. Like if you're designing a pen, you're

11:02

going to think about like, okay, how

11:04

big is the human hand? How does it feel?

11:07

What can I do to promote the ink flow

11:09

here? And when

11:11

you're an artist, it's almost like the

11:14

scale of the problem is thinking about

11:16

all of visual culture in this moment.

11:18

And how do I react to that?

11:20

Where do I find my place in

11:22

that? I think my career is kind

11:25

of interesting because I kind

11:27

of do both. I get up in

11:29

the morning because of the

11:31

design part of my brain that I'm like,

11:33

okay, here's the problem. I need to

11:35

go at this task. But, you know, there is

11:38

an element in my work where it's

11:40

kind of philosophical and I zoom out and

11:42

I'm like, what is it that we're losing

11:45

touch with as everything becomes like

11:47

a little bit more digital and

11:49

black box? And I feel like

11:51

sometimes in your practice, it's really

11:53

relevant what the distinction is and

11:55

sometimes it isn't. Now, a big

11:57

shift for creatives has been to

12:00

move to subscription-based platforms

12:03

like Patreon or Subzac where

12:06

people can support your work directly.

12:08

What is it like to create

12:11

for your Patreon subscribers rather

12:14

than for a client, let's

12:16

say? I keep a

12:18

sketchbook. This is actually an

12:20

idea that I'm stealing from

12:22

teacher Dean Dixon, who's another

12:24

really great designer artist type

12:27

that I admire. She

12:29

was saying that she always keeps a

12:32

sketchbook full of ideas, kind of like

12:34

laying in wait for the right opportunity

12:36

to come along, the right client project.

12:38

You pretend like you just had a

12:40

lightning-bulb moment, but it's really been sitting

12:43

in a sketchbook for five years. I

12:45

started this monthly mail club, Patreon, where

12:47

people can sign up. Every month I

12:49

make a different experimental project. It's

12:52

kind of like a way to

12:54

metabolize that backlog of ideas. The

12:56

idea can be as simple as

12:58

I noticed in this

13:00

pile of translucent

13:03

vellum that there's a really interesting atmospheric

13:05

effect when you print on the vellum

13:07

and then stack it together. It almost

13:09

looks like you're going through the fog. I

13:12

noted that and I was like, oh, I want to do a

13:15

project with that. I don't know why, but I want to do it.

13:18

I made this transparent national geographic where

13:20

it feels like you're moving through the

13:22

forest, like you're going through the jungle,

13:24

moving away vines and it's foggy

13:28

and then it comes into focus. Do you

13:30

feel like you can do whatever you

13:32

want or are your subscribers coming

13:34

to you for a certain thing when

13:37

it comes to the Patreon community and

13:39

the work that you're doing there? Yeah,

13:42

my most important consideration in keeping

13:44

everyone happy is that it

13:47

should feel like the price point makes sense. It's $24 a

13:49

month, which a book or a set of cards or

13:56

basically the types of things that

14:00

I want to make like fall within that range. But

14:02

there are definitely months where I feel like,

14:04

oh gosh, am I sending enough? And then

14:06

other months where I just completely blow the

14:08

budget. So that's kind

14:10

of the main consideration. How

14:13

big is your Patreon community? It's

14:16

about 400. And so there's

14:19

usually about 25 that drop off every

14:21

month and then 25 new people

14:23

who sign up. And so yeah, it's a lot

14:25

of packages to bring to the post office. I

14:27

just recently figured out that I can drive a

14:30

car into the back of the post office and

14:32

put things in a bin back there, which is

14:34

going to make my life a lot easier

14:37

because I was literally biking

14:39

to the post office with

14:41

a dangerous amount of packages.

14:43

Wow. Yeah, that's great that you figured

14:45

that out. Being an artist is

14:47

a lot about schlepping things places. Like if

14:50

any young listeners are like, do I want to go

14:52

to art school? Think about how much you like carrying

14:54

things and make your decision that

14:57

way. I

15:01

can imagine. Yeah, I think it's great

15:03

to hear you talk about pricing because

15:05

I know it's such a challenge for

15:07

a creative business. It does

15:10

sound like a bargain. Twenty four

15:12

dollars, you said, considering how

15:14

much work you actually put

15:16

into producing the work and then

15:19

schlepping, like you said, all of that

15:21

to the post office and getting them

15:23

out. Yeah, it's not the most lucrative

15:25

thing that I do every month. So

15:29

why do you do it? Why do you do

15:31

the Patreon stuff? Does it bring you the most

15:33

joy? It keeps your creativity

15:35

going because you're doing those projects

15:38

that don't fit anywhere and they're in

15:40

your sketchbook, right? Yeah,

15:42

I'm doing it in

15:44

part to connect with people. I

15:47

really love mail. I love receiving things in the

15:49

mail. I like the

15:51

idea of sending people little surprises

15:54

like they're just like little gifts

15:56

they weren't expecting. I'm also doing

15:58

it because I need

16:00

to construct some kind of system for

16:03

myself this year to make sure that

16:05

I keep making new work

16:07

and keep on experimenting, that I can't rely

16:09

on the external pressure of a job to

16:11

do that. You know, I think I'm going

16:13

to look back and be proud of what

16:16

I created. There's definitely a

16:18

wide diversity of things I'm able to play

16:20

with. Absolutely. Yeah,

16:22

I want to get into some things that are outside of that

16:24

$24 price range though. There's

16:28

a lot of materials I want to experiment with

16:30

that I just are not on the table

16:32

right now. So you're doing

16:34

so much. You just mentioned client

16:36

work, your Patreon, you're also an

16:38

author, you write books, you speak,

16:41

you teach. What

16:43

is your ideal mix of

16:46

the type of work that will fill your

16:48

days? Yeah, I mean, I get really

16:50

bored if I'm doing the same thing over and

16:52

over again. Even

16:54

the same work, I really like

16:57

the uncertainty of will

17:00

this work? If I don't

17:02

have that question to motivate me, it's really

17:04

hard for me to want to work

17:06

on something. That is not

17:08

a good business plan. It's a lot better to

17:10

get really good at a certain style and then

17:12

have people come to you for that style. It's

17:15

also a good business plan to have

17:19

a variety of activities that

17:21

you use to make

17:23

your life work. So there are

17:25

some years where I'm asked to give

17:27

so many talks. And

17:30

so that's income and that's great. But then there

17:32

are other years where that doesn't happen. And

17:35

I never want to find myself in a

17:39

panic that something has dried up.

17:41

I've noticed that it becomes

17:44

a cyclical thing where when it

17:46

rains, it pours. When I

17:48

get client work, it seems like everyone wants

17:50

me to work on something. I'm kind of

17:52

cramming in those projects,

17:55

book writing, the teaching, and

17:57

cramming them into the

17:59

next. negative space where other things aren't

18:02

happening. Yeah, it sounds like

18:04

you're very flexible. And I think most

18:06

artists are. They kind of go with

18:08

the flow and create their own opportunities

18:10

as well. I'm thinking

18:12

about what you said about using

18:14

Patreon to connect with people. What

18:18

is your approach to social media? Because

18:21

that's also a way to connect with people. I'm

18:23

guessing you're not really the type

18:25

to schedule posts

18:28

and optimize her algorithms,

18:31

unless I'm wrong. Yeah, I mean,

18:33

the algorithm is definitely frustrating. So I

18:35

think all of us feel like a

18:37

little bit disempowered by social media right

18:39

now because the algorithm is more heavy-handed

18:42

than it used to be. I

18:44

need to figure out how to schedule posts. Honestly, like

18:46

I haven't done that yet, but I noticed when I

18:48

post in the morning, more people see it. So I

18:51

need to get on that scheduling

18:54

post thing. I think I

18:56

use Instagram a lot like other creative people

18:58

do, and that I'll post things to my

19:02

main page that are kind of like

19:04

portfolio content. And then in stories, I

19:06

just post anything I pass, you know,

19:08

I'm like, oh, it's an interesting ripped

19:10

up poster on the subway, or I

19:13

heard the song I liked, or my cat's

19:15

doing something funny. I don't filter

19:17

that much. How do you feel

19:20

about the pressure to always

19:22

be online or be online

19:24

more? I think that I'm

19:27

kind of lucky in that I've

19:29

been lucky enough to have kind

19:31

of like a long career. And

19:33

so I've noticed that you

19:36

can go away and come back and

19:38

people will return to you. It's a

19:40

little bit disheartening because I know if

19:42

you're not on Instagram, for example, for

19:44

a while, and then

19:46

they tend to not reward you for

19:49

staying away. So

19:52

There's, you know, really, it's not your imagination.

19:54

It's definitely built into the app. So If

19:56

they want you to be there, they want

19:58

to participate, they're going to. The boy

20:00

people who post consistently and

20:02

post consistent content by it.

20:05

Is it doesn't mean you have to

20:07

live your life that way and edo

20:09

ultimately it's what keeps you have a

20:11

much keeps you for sold as a

20:14

creative person is the same. that point

20:16

to prevail in the long run and

20:18

so if you need to take a

20:20

break off a social media for in

20:22

a month to month some just go

20:24

draw trees or something at something you

20:26

can do. Specifics of do you

20:28

want commands or what are you

20:31

looking for in terms of engagement.

20:33

What? I'm looking to like just connects

20:35

with Kindred Spirits center. They post things

20:37

and people want to chit chat a

20:40

lot about it and not so it's

20:42

fine. it's just feel so soul. You

20:44

know Silverlake? go into a gallery so

20:46

it just talking to people so I

20:48

like that. So along those lines. Do

20:51

you have any other designer friends you

20:53

connect with or a team behind the

20:55

scenes? I see a week I have

20:57

a pretty good immunity in for a

21:00

plan. A really good community that comes

21:02

from Linked. To holding a

21:04

class of even kind of create

21:06

a space for people feel comfortable

21:09

to experiment that comfortable to have

21:11

new ideas and new opinions. You

21:13

know explore different aspects of themselves

21:15

and their creator. Practice finding your

21:18

people is like. Talk

21:20

about this a lot. but it's actually really really. Important.

21:24

To. Artists and she creative work safer.

21:26

From many years on a tight at

21:28

a school called the School for put

21:31

a competition which is an artist or

21:33

and school. They're really great space and

21:35

one of people who are interested in

21:38

you know the intersection as of art

21:40

and Technology and Design and Cultures. Part

21:42

of the reason why I live in New York. Honestly

21:45

as because I wanna be around

21:47

people who you know, For.

21:49

Whatever reason and their young lives

21:52

for like as moved as I

21:54

was by the things I was

21:56

reading a magazine and blogs and

21:58

scenes on. The. The coverage that

22:01

I saw all the things that

22:03

that made me want to become

22:05

an artist that you know and

22:07

when to hang out. I want

22:09

to find my people in talk

22:11

to them know if Arabs astrophysicist

22:13

Kelly what is your next transfer

22:15

me said I don't know exactly

22:17

I knew that the next really

22:19

big projects that coming out is

22:21

a collaboration with letter former kind

22:23

that earth interactive pop up book

22:25

about typographers he arm and about.

22:27

How letters get their she's like

22:29

why. Do we have? you know

22:31

the diversity of typefaces inner drop down

22:34

menu they come from. Like why does

22:36

you know Certain types of sheets and

22:38

flourishes remind us as different time periods.

22:40

So the question I had and eight

22:43

hundred coming out this with my an

22:45

art historian had is that we talk

22:47

about i a lot with painting. We

22:50

talk about it a lot with architecture.

22:52

We don't as much with. Places.

22:55

And gendered the potent containers of like

22:57

from the site guys and different areas.

22:59

So it's a probable that A think

23:01

kids might like is that it's really

23:03

written for the a nice if is

23:06

for adults. Yeah yeah yeah but yasser

23:08

that lake you know I I have

23:10

a lot is half baked ideas. The

23:12

I haven't of half baked ideas to

23:14

last the rest of my life I

23:16

like honestly don't know if I'm going

23:18

live long enough to get caught in

23:21

his ideas on sale. I need to

23:23

either start knocking them out. Faster.

23:25

Or ah yes. And

23:27

no, Now clone myself or something. That's

23:31

wonderful. I mean some people have

23:33

no ideas. Honestly, a navy more

23:35

that I'm to slake. Really interesting

23:37

set may or may not be

23:39

possible and so when you're hurting

23:41

and something that places his as

23:43

possible, is it impossible? It's a

23:45

slate failure after failure to fiddle

23:47

either until he finally like I

23:49

got it, is assists. Yeah, yeah,

23:51

failure. It's always good when it comes

23:54

to. Learning. I

23:56

I think it's it's a must. Yeah,

23:58

yeah, I mean eighty. Honestly, artists,

24:01

especially artists, designers too, but

24:03

artists too large. I

24:05

don't think that they have the same value judgment

24:08

where they deem things a failure. I think someone

24:10

on the outside would be looking at it and

24:12

be like, oh, okay. You

24:14

spent a year trying to get that

24:16

to work and I think

24:19

artists call that process. Yes,

24:22

it is process. I love it. What

24:25

is your one word for

24:27

this year or next year, something that

24:29

will guide and inspire you? Ah.

24:33

I love that. Can you explain a little more about

24:35

that word? There are these

24:37

two researchers out of UC Berkeley

24:39

who are studying awe from the

24:42

standpoint of psychology and it hasn't been

24:44

studied as much as other human emotions,

24:46

but they're studying sort of like the

24:49

evolutionary importance of it, why we have

24:51

this emotion, why other animals

24:53

don't seem to have it. I

24:57

really like this idea of

24:59

awe as bringing on

25:01

the sort of feeling of vastness, but then

25:03

there's this discomfort that like, oh, the world

25:05

isn't quite the way that you thought it

25:07

was. It's something that

25:10

I really find a valuable emotion

25:12

and I almost kind of try

25:14

to chase it. I

25:17

have some projects in the works that if

25:19

I could get them to function, then I

25:21

think it'll do that. Well

25:24

congratulations because that

25:27

is exactly the word or feeling

25:29

that I had when I

25:31

saw your work

25:33

online, like the record player. I

25:36

was in awe of how you did that with a piece

25:38

of paper. So keep doing

25:40

what you're doing. It was such

25:42

an honor and delight to

25:44

have you on as a guest and thank you so

25:47

much for your time. Oh yeah, thanks for

25:49

having me. This was really fun. Thank

25:51

you so much to Kelly Anderson for joining me

25:53

today. I have never

25:56

met someone so multidisciplined.

25:58

I love that she's working. in physical

26:00

and digital spaces. And

26:03

I also appreciate that she's all

26:05

about discovering and trying new things.

26:07

She doesn't have all the answers, but

26:09

she delights in the process of figuring

26:12

it all out. One quick

26:14

thing before we get to the takeaways,

26:16

we need a huge favor from you.

26:19

Please take a couple of

26:21

minutes to fill out our

26:23

listener survey. You'll find the

26:25

link in our show notes,

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or go to adobe.ly slash

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ITMsurvey, and you'll automatically

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be entered to win one of

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the two 12-month Creative Cloud memberships.

26:37

Thank you so much. Now,

26:39

back to the key takeaways from this

26:41

episode. One, follow

26:44

your intuition. Even if it

26:46

doesn't feel like a serious, professional

26:48

strategy, that's where your breakthroughs

26:50

can come from. Two, keep

26:53

a notebook full of your ideas because

26:55

you never know when you can use

26:57

it for a future project for your

26:59

clients or for your own business. Three,

27:03

teaching a class does two great things.

27:06

First, it can foster community,

27:09

especially if you're not living somewhere

27:11

like Brooklyn. And second,

27:13

participants can inspire you with

27:15

new ways of thinking. Thanks

27:18

for listening to In the Making,

27:20

brought to you by Adobe Express,

27:22

the all-in-one content creation app included

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in your Creative Cloud membership. If

27:27

you like this episode, be sure to leave us

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a rating and a review, and

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subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

27:34

I'm Teresa Au, and I'll see you next

27:36

time.