0:03

Welcome to In the Making. I'm

0:05

Teresa Aou. Join me

0:07

for conversations with creatives, solopreneurs,

0:10

and experts as we explore

0:12

the unique challenges and surprising

0:15

rewards of the creator economy.

0:18

Fun fact about me, I love talking

0:20

to people. I'm curious about

0:22

other experiences of life, and that's why

0:25

I love hosting this show.

0:28

It gives me a reason, an excuse

0:30

to talk to really interesting

0:32

people. That desire to

0:34

know and understand others is

0:36

empathy, and it isn't just

0:39

about being nice. Having

0:41

empathy and putting it into practice,

0:44

starting with yourself and the people that

0:46

you interact with, makes you a better

0:48

designer, a better business owner. And for

0:50

me, I feel like the most important

0:52

thing is that it makes you a

0:54

better human. Michael Ventura is

0:57

someone who thinks a lot about empathy,

1:00

but he's not what you would expect. He

1:02

ran a branding and creative agency for

1:05

over a decade with a long list

1:07

of recognizable brands as clients. He

1:09

consults for Fortune 50 companies and

1:11

executives, but instead of being a suit

1:14

in a boardroom, he's talking about empathy

1:16

and purpose. Michael, I

1:18

am so honored to have you with

1:20

us today because driving empathy is a

1:22

big part of my life, my passion.

1:26

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. So

1:29

what is empathy and how exactly

1:31

did it start showing up in

1:33

your work with brands? For

1:36

me, where it began was running a

1:38

brand and strategy practice. When

1:40

you go out and you meet clients and

1:42

you meet their customers and you understand stuff,

1:44

the tendency at some points is

1:46

to go back to the studio and shut the door and say,

1:49

all right, we heard enough. We

1:51

know best. Let's go design and build this thing.

1:53

And anytime we did that, our

1:56

work was less successful than if we

1:58

took the extra time to go. ask

2:00

those five extra questions or to go meet

2:02

that person that was going to be a

2:04

little more inconvenient. And so once

2:06

we started to realize that was important, we

2:09

said, this needs to become a process. This

2:11

needs to become something we build a method

2:13

around and that we do uniformly well across

2:16

the team. And so that was sort of

2:18

how this began, probably now close to 18

2:20

years ago. Empathy

2:22

is so often misunderstood. And,

2:25

you know, people talk about seeing

2:27

the world from someone else's perspective, standing in

2:29

someone else's shoes. How do we move it

2:31

beyond standing in someone else's shoes? Because Michael

2:34

standing in Teresa's shoes is not the same

2:37

as Teresa standing in Teresa's shoes, right? Agreed.

2:39

All my own bias, all my own lived

2:41

experience. And so what I might want in

2:44

a situation you're going through could be different.

2:46

And so that behavior is

2:49

called effective empathy with an A. It's

2:52

a type of empathy, but it doesn't always get it

2:54

right because, again, it comes with my bias. The

2:56

kind of that I focus on is something

2:58

called cognitive empathy, which I think of as

3:00

instead of the golden rule example, we just

3:03

talked about something that's more like the platinum

3:05

rule. And what I mean by that is

3:08

what do you want in this

3:10

circumstance and situation? And what is it like

3:12

for you? And how do I meet you

3:14

there as opposed to insert my lived experience

3:16

into where you are? Yeah. And

3:19

that takes asking questions and slowing

3:21

down. And often the

3:24

thing we don't as humans like to do the most,

3:26

which is change my behavior based on new information. I

3:28

could learn a lot about you and not

3:31

change anything about how I interact with you. And

3:34

so the benefit of empathy only comes

3:36

when I uphold it. Until

3:38

you put it into practice, it's kind

3:40

of a neutral thing. Yeah.

3:43

Yeah. So empathy is

3:45

obviously going to make all of us

3:47

kinder to each other, but what does

3:49

it mean for us as creatives, as

3:52

humans? So you

3:54

can't design for what you don't

3:56

know, right? It's not just what do I

3:58

think you might do. want, which

4:01

is easy, right? That's lazy empathy. I could sit

4:03

at my desk and like be given some user

4:05

persona and say, Oh, this person who's this demographic

4:07

and lives in this place and has this many

4:09

kids, this is what they probably want. And then

4:12

I designed something for them. Maybe

4:16

what is harder, but more effective is to

4:18

get out of your chair or to go

4:20

make that phone call, talk to them. What

4:22

do they want? And they will surprise you

4:24

every time you ask that question. And they

4:27

will show you that the thing you thought

4:29

is probably 80%. Right?

4:31

Cause if you're at a certain

4:33

point in your career, you've got some good tools

4:36

in your toolbox, you can make some decisions that

4:38

feel well-informed, but you're not going to get that

4:40

a hundred percent accuracy until you go and do the hard

4:42

work. A hundred percent. We

4:44

can't make tools or create

4:47

tools that we imagine that our customers

4:49

and users want. We have

4:51

to create tools that they do

4:53

need and want that serve them,

4:55

but not what we imagine

4:57

will serve them. That's right. Yeah.

4:59

There are plenty of patents that

5:02

are collecting dust because some

5:05

inventor in a room had a hairbrained idea

5:07

that they thought was brilliant, but never actually

5:09

talked to anybody and so it solved a

5:11

problem of one. Yes.

5:13

Yes. So somatic empathy

5:15

is a little bit more, we can dive into

5:18

that real quick, cause it's a fun one and

5:20

it actually has a lot to do in the

5:22

design world, particularly in like industrial design and user

5:24

experience to some degree as well. What is the

5:26

lived experience of someone else and how can we

5:29

build that into an experience we're creating? So take,

5:31

for example, the automotive industry. When

5:33

you are designing a vehicle, if you're working

5:35

at, you know, one of the big five,

5:37

right, there's a whole group that's building clay

5:39

models of these cars at scale

5:41

and those clay models are designed to kind

5:43

of like see all the curves and all

5:46

the shapes, but also to understand before they

5:48

get into bending metal and welding stuff together,

5:50

what's it like getting in and out of this car?

5:52

If you're six foot five. What's

5:54

it like getting in and out of this car? If

5:56

you have a bad knee or you have

5:59

crutches, right? All of these things might

6:01

impair your ability to use this vehicle

6:03

at its maximum. So somatic empathy is

6:06

about understanding the physical lived experience of

6:08

someone else and how do you take

6:10

that information into a deeper

6:12

understanding of them. Michael, I'm curious

6:15

to know what does it mean to

6:17

have empathy for yourself? Because you talk

6:19

about that, that it begins with you.

6:22

Yeah, it's paradoxical, right? Because when you

6:24

think about the idea of empathy, we

6:26

always think about it for someone else.

6:29

But if you don't understand yourself, you're going

6:31

to have a really hard time understanding someone

6:33

else. If you haven't done that work to

6:35

understand your blind spots, your biases,

6:38

what are the things that have informed the person

6:40

you've become? Are you happy with those things? Are

6:42

there some of those things you're still working through

6:45

to let go of? And

6:47

we've all got a version of that, right? Whether you've

6:49

done it with a therapist or you've done it in

6:51

a ceremony or you've done it somewhere else in your

6:53

journal, whatever it might be, right? We're all kind of

6:56

a work in progress. And so when

6:59

you turn that lens inward and you start to

7:01

ask those questions of yourself, do you increase your

7:03

ability to empathize with other people who might be

7:05

going through the same thing? So I'll give you

7:07

an example. Unfortunately, most

7:09

of us at this age in our

7:12

life have lost someone we love, right?

7:14

And so when someone else around

7:17

us loses someone we love, it

7:19

doesn't mean that we think they're going through

7:21

it the same way we did, but we

7:23

can empathize with how hard it is because

7:25

we've been through it ourselves, right?

7:27

And so in that same vein, where

7:30

are the ways you can turn that

7:32

lens inward and learn more about yourself

7:35

so that when you see it in

7:37

someone else, it doesn't mean they're having

7:39

the same experience, but that you can

7:41

appreciate the complexity of it and you can meet

7:43

them where they are. Now, if you're looking at

7:46

yourself with empathy and seeing yourself

7:48

a little more clearly, what do

7:50

you do with that information?

7:54

So how do we practice this

7:56

act of self-observation enough where

7:58

we notice things and we... can respond

8:00

instead of react, right? We've often heard

8:02

people talk about that. Like if

8:05

you take that extra beat, if you take that extra breath,

8:07

if you take an opportunity to

8:09

really observe before you act, you'll

8:11

make a more thoughtful choice. Right.

8:14

When, and so when

8:16

we're out there trying to build better

8:18

brands or creative or stories,

8:22

the ability to take a

8:24

step back once it hits the world and

8:27

just observe it, right, and to watch it

8:29

and to see what it does and where

8:31

it lands and who's excited about it and

8:33

is this working? And

8:35

also having, you know, the conviction

8:37

to put it out there, but the light grip to

8:40

let it go, if it's not working and to try

8:42

to shift into something else that, that might serve you

8:44

better. Yeah. I love that

8:46

answer. So in

8:48

thinking about applying empathy to

8:51

ourselves, was there a

8:53

time you realized that you didn't

8:55

understand yourself that ended up being a

8:57

turning point for you in your life? Running

9:00

a studio, you

9:03

are solving all day, right?

9:05

Like I am wired as the CEO

9:07

of that firm for 17 years,

9:10

client emails with an issue, solve it, move on

9:12

to the next problem. Employee walks in and says,

9:14

Hey, I'm having this challenge, solve it, move on.

9:16

Right? Like that's just like you're in that rhythm

9:18

all day long. And then

9:21

I would come home and my wife is an

9:23

artist in a goldsmith and she works in a

9:25

very solitary way. So I come home and

9:28

she starts telling me about her day and

9:30

maybe her day didn't go that well that day. And

9:32

so I immediately shift into how do we solve this?

9:34

What's going on? What's the problem? Where's the root cause?

9:36

How do we figure? And we

9:39

were having this issue for a little while

9:41

in our relationship. And at

9:43

some point I realized that

9:45

through her help and her, and her, you know,

9:47

sort of pointing it out to me, I

9:50

don't want you to solve this. Oh my

9:52

God. I was just going to tell you that

9:54

as a woman, many of us, we just want

9:56

to be heard. And so, and so

9:58

you said the perfect word because This is

10:00

where we landed was now we have

10:02

this shorthand where do you

10:04

want to be heard? Do you want help or do you want to hug? And

10:08

just like which of the three are we going for here and

10:10

then I know how to show up better. I

10:13

think that is the secret to good

10:15

relationships. If

10:18

they figure out the language and

10:20

what you need from the other

10:22

person because like you said, it's not always

10:24

what you want. Yeah, and

10:27

deconditioning ourselves is

10:29

hard, right? Because if you've been doing that

10:31

and been getting rewarded for it at your

10:33

job, you think that that

10:35

just translates to someplace else and it doesn't always.

10:38

And I need to be present and

10:40

thoughtful and in the moment

10:43

and shift out of that other behavior and shift into this

10:45

one. Yeah, yeah. So

10:48

there's a real curiosity in empathy.

10:50

If you feel there's a natural

10:53

place for it. I know

10:55

I think I'm a naturally curious

10:57

person and that's why I care so much

10:59

about empathy. One of the easiest

11:02

things to say and the hardest things to

11:04

do is learning how to ask

11:06

better questions. We're all busy. We're doing a

11:08

million things in a given day. So, for

11:10

example, we've all sat on a Zoom waiting

11:13

for that like fourth person to join the

11:15

call. And so there's three of us there

11:17

and we're like, you know, talking about the

11:19

weekend. And I say, you know, Teresa,

11:21

how are you? And you say, I'm fine. I

11:23

went to a soccer this weekend or whatever you

11:25

say. Right. Because how are you

11:28

is a question that we all just default to. Yeah.

11:32

A quick hack for anyone who's listening, you can try

11:34

this today while you're waiting

11:36

for that fourth person who's late. And it's always the same

11:38

fourth person. You know who I'm talking about. You

11:41

can say, what's it like to be

11:43

Teresa today? Same

11:46

benign curiosity, way better answers every time because it

11:48

just hits your brain in a different spot. You're

11:50

a little more curious. You're a little more, you

11:53

know what, how is Teresa? It makes you think

11:55

differently because you can't go to the place in

11:57

your brain where you've got that other answer. Or

12:00

the standard, I'm fine, how are you? You

12:03

can't say, what's it like to

12:05

be Theresa today? Fine. And it's so like,

12:07

you're still thinking in a different way, because

12:09

there's a little layer underneath there that's just

12:11

kind of poked at. Where can you just

12:13

shake up your patterns of questions and

12:16

repetitive behaviors? In

12:18

order to get to something that's just a

12:21

little more interesting, people love to be interesting.

12:23

Very few people want to be interested. And

12:26

I actually think being interested gets you a

12:28

lot more information, a lot more understanding, a

12:30

lot more empathy. I love it. Thank you

12:32

for that. So I've

12:35

watched a lot of your talks and you

12:37

always bring in the breath. Like you always ask

12:39

your audience, take a deep breath, take

12:41

seven seconds, inhale, hold

12:45

it for seven seconds, and then exhale.

12:47

But I find that really useful. I

12:50

do that myself, is to take a pause.

12:53

If you're listening right now, hit pause for seven

12:55

seconds and actually do it. When's the last time

12:57

you took a deep breath? When's the

12:59

last time you stretched? We sit at machines

13:01

all day long for so many of us,

13:03

myself included. So

13:06

yeah, like walking the dog is a part of my job

13:08

at this point, because if I don't get out and go

13:10

take the dog for a walk, then

13:12

I'm sitting at the machine longer. And

13:14

sometimes that little 30-minute spin

13:17

around the block actually gets

13:19

my brain moving in a different way. Come back with

13:21

a new idea, have some oxygen in

13:23

my blood again. Like all that stuff matters. We

13:25

kind of forget. A lot of us, for

13:28

many years, especially when we

13:30

were full-time in offices, treated

13:32

our bodies basically like lifts

13:35

and Ubers just moving our brains and mouths in and out

13:37

of common rooms. We just go, all right, now I'm going

13:39

to move here and talk, and now I'm going to move

13:41

here and talk, and now we don't even get that move.

13:44

Yes, I know. I

13:46

sat stationary on Monday, eight

13:49

hours straight. Honestly, I did not even

13:51

get up. So I hear

13:53

you, and I agree. This question

13:55

is applicable to my listeners,

13:58

those who are creatively... marketing their

14:01

businesses through storytelling. How

14:03

do you start recognizing themes in

14:06

your life to figure out how

14:08

to tell your own story? Yeah,

14:11

the first thing that comes

14:13

to mind for me when you ask that is what

14:15

are people responding well to? Because

14:20

we often as creatives put a

14:22

lot of stuff out there and

14:25

we don't really know what's going to hit. And

14:28

so I look for clues all the time. I

14:30

look for, where

14:32

did that get a lot of engagement? When

14:34

did someone like, were there a lot of

14:37

comments on that particular post I wrote? Did

14:39

people share this thing more than that thing?

14:42

Do clients get really excited when we started talking

14:44

about this idea? There's data everywhere.

14:47

If you look for it. If you look for

14:50

it. Yeah, but most of us are like kind

14:52

of only looking for the data we're looking for.

14:55

We're like, I want to confirm that my idea

14:57

is the one that they're going to pick. And

14:59

so I'm listening and I only hear what I

15:01

want to hear. We've all heard that being

15:04

told to us at some point. You're only hearing what you want

15:06

to hear. Sure. How

15:08

do you open that aperture a bit wider? How

15:10

do you pay attention to the stuff

15:13

that's outside of your, that's

15:15

more in your periphery than in your main focus

15:17

and see what's happening there because people are

15:19

paying attention. People are looking at things. People

15:22

are sharing things. People are responding in different

15:24

ways. And all of that is

15:26

good information to help you start to orient

15:28

on a path to get more outcomes

15:31

that you're looking for. What advice

15:34

do you have for busy solo

15:36

printers and creatives, those who are

15:38

listening to the show, that

15:40

is a simple actionable step

15:42

that they can take today?

15:45

So do less. Think

15:48

about all of the things that you're

15:50

trying to do and do fewer things

15:53

and just do them better. That was

15:55

a mantra I gave myself years ago

15:57

because I Got

15:59

wrapped up. in. The. Hustle.

16:02

You. Know if you're not working twelve hours a day and

16:04

blah blah blah like in you're not working hard enough, That

16:06

is so not. The. Way I thrive. And

16:08

yeah, that was what For a little

16:10

while the world was showing me as

16:12

I thought the path to success. And.

16:16

It was wrong. They were wrong. Wrong. I

16:18

it maybe some people are wired that way.

16:20

I don't know. if not for me and

16:22

if it is for you than you. Keep.

16:25

Going but like for me, doing

16:28

less better was really important. Learning

16:30

to say no to the things

16:32

that sounded interesting but really weren't.

16:35

Gonna. Serve the goal and

16:37

with started to happen was.

16:40

The. Work I did focus on. I. Was

16:42

able to go deeper with and I was able

16:45

to actually. Do. Better

16:47

work and yield better outcomes. Because I

16:50

wasn't spread myself across a hundred different

16:52

efforts, I got focused on the things

16:54

that mattered. An iced and I hold

16:57

myself accountable to the. I. Think

16:59

it's very sound advice and

17:01

I have heard it from

17:03

other really successful. Executives

17:06

in my path, so I think

17:08

you have something there for sure.

17:10

What do you do though when

17:12

you feel everything is important to

17:14

explicitly when you're. So a printer. So.

17:17

I would encourage people to think about. What?

17:20

Are the criteria? Your.

17:23

Evaluating all of

17:25

these different pursuits

17:27

against and. Are

17:29

you using the same criteria for all of them? Because

17:31

if you say well, I'm doing this because I want

17:33

to make money and I'm doing this because it brings

17:35

me joy. in I'm doing this because it does something

17:37

else. It's. Gonna be hard to.

17:39

Apples to apples them. right? But if

17:41

you're able to say like these are my for

17:43

care about. I. Want to make a

17:46

certain level of income? I want to be

17:48

happy with the work I'm doing. I want

17:50

to see a long term career path for

17:52

this work out by whatever they are right.

17:54

but you decide what those criteria are. and

17:57

then you look at all of the things you're doing through

17:59

those lines and give them a bit of

18:01

a score, like actually like be a little

18:03

quant about it and say like, okay, so

18:06

this opportunity to do this new project with

18:08

someone, is this only about scratching

18:10

the itch of making money? Or does this actually

18:12

also like make me really excited and like scratch

18:14

that creative itch too and does it do this

18:16

and does it do this? Great, then go do

18:18

it because it's hitting all your boxes. And

18:21

the things that are only ticking one box, hold

18:25

off on those or backburn of them a

18:27

little bit because there's probably a couple that

18:29

tick all your boxes, but if you are

18:31

not measuring every opportunity by the

18:33

same criteria, you're never going to know. And figuring

18:35

out those boxes is kind of

18:38

like finding your purpose, right? I

18:42

think it's an ingredient. I think it's a

18:44

big ingredient. It's they

18:46

will, when you know what those

18:48

criteria are, those are

18:50

huge sort of legs

18:53

of the table. The table itself is

18:55

what I would think about as the purpose. It's

18:57

like when it was like, what are we putting

18:59

on top of all of those things? What are

19:01

we here to actually do? How do you find

19:03

your care about? Because we

19:06

don't slow it down enough to sometimes ask

19:08

that question. And so we just

19:11

do what we need to do to survive. And

19:14

I don't think having a purpose is

19:16

a privilege. I think everyone can have a

19:18

purpose and slowing down enough to ask yourself

19:21

those questions is an important

19:23

step. And if what you decide you're here

19:25

to do is be

19:27

the best parent that you can possibly be, and that's

19:29

all you want to do, that's a lot. And that's

19:32

amazing. And you should do that. And if it's to

19:34

be among the top

19:36

2% of the world, then go get

19:38

it. And finding that purpose is

19:40

a way to give you a clear path

19:42

forward and to inform your life and career.

19:45

I've been doing a lot of research on the idea of purpose

19:48

over the last year and a half, particularly

19:50

because as the world has changed

19:52

in this post pandemic life and

19:55

our work life and

19:57

our home life got a little more enmeshed because

19:59

of the remote. remote work and we're working a

20:01

lot. And if we can make

20:03

that work work for us and our

20:05

goals and ambitions, then we

20:07

feel a little more fulfilled. We feel a little more motivated

20:09

when we get out of bed in the morning. How

20:12

does self-empathy connect to purpose? This

20:15

next chapter of work that I'm focusing on

20:17

is how do you take that self-empathy and

20:20

ask yourself what do you do once you sort of

20:22

know what you're here to do? How

20:24

do you hold yourself accountable? How do

20:26

you measure progress and growth? How do

20:28

you do the hardest thing, which is say no

20:31

to the shiny object that seems cool and interesting

20:33

but is going to totally derail the

20:35

path you're on. What is

20:37

your purpose, Michael? The kinds of

20:39

work I focus on, whether it's through the

20:41

work with empathy and leadership development, whether it's

20:43

this purpose work that I've been researching now.

20:46

The theme for me is

20:48

helping others move through moments of

20:50

transformation and change to become better.

20:53

And if I can do that work and I

20:55

can leave this life knowing that I helped a

20:57

couple things nudge a little closer to the direction

20:59

they want to be, then I think I maybe

21:01

have done something right. My

21:03

last question is what

21:06

is one word that will guide you

21:08

this year? Grace.

21:13

I feel like that's one of the things that is

21:17

particularly missing in a lot of

21:19

the world these

21:21

days. Grace for each

21:23

other, grace for ourselves, grace

21:26

for slowing things down and

21:28

doing them the right way. You

21:30

know when you take the

21:32

effort to do something with grace and

21:35

dignity and poise and

21:37

carefulness, it's always better.

21:40

So give yourself the grace of that this year.

21:43

I love that word. Thanks so much for

21:45

joining me, Michael. Thank

21:48

you. You can learn more about

21:50

Michael and his work at michaelventora.co

21:52

and read his book, Applied Empathy,

21:57

the new language for leadership available at

21:59

bookstores. stores everywhere. I

22:02

loved hearing Michael's perspective on

22:04

empathy since this is my

22:06

focus of work at Adobe

22:08

but with a different lens

22:10

for individuals and organizations. My

22:13

key takeaways from our conversation today

22:15

were one, don't

22:17

just treat others how you want to be

22:19

treated. Ask them how they

22:22

want to be treated. Whether designing

22:24

a product, doing client work, or

22:26

creating posts for social, think about

22:28

your audience. That's applied

22:31

empathy. Two,

22:33

themes in your life can also

22:35

guide your greater purpose. Your life

22:37

already tells a story. It's just

22:40

a matter of categorizing and clarifying

22:42

that message. Three, you

22:45

can springboard from an empathetic understanding of

22:47

yourself to see a clear purpose and

22:49

a path forward in your life and

22:52

career. Thanks for listening to

22:54

In the Making brought to you

22:57

by Adobe Express, the all-in-one content

22:59

creation app included in your Creative

23:01

Cloud membership. If you like

23:03

this episode, be sure to leave us a rating

23:05

and a review and subscribe in

23:07

your favorite podcast app. I'm Teresa

23:09

Al and I'll see you next

23:11

time.