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Yeah!

2:04

This is In the Bubble with Andy Slavitt.

2:07

How are you today? Stay

2:10

tuned in the next few shows. Next

2:13

Wednesday we're going to have a pretty major announcement

2:15

for you. I don't want you to tune in for it and

2:17

tell your friends, your neighbors, your

2:20

pets, your enemies, the

2:22

people who bring up the grocery stores to tune in next week for

2:25

our major announcement. Very excited

2:27

about today's show. It's

2:30

with David Leonhart. He writes

2:32

a very influential newsletter. I think it's

2:34

the most widely read email newsletter.

2:37

It's called The Morning. He's just written a new book.

2:39

It's actually his first book. I don't know what you're going to talk

2:41

to him about that. But man,

2:43

times are weird. Times

2:46

are weird. I'm guessing you're feeling

2:49

this sense of upheaval, of

2:52

what is up, what is down, what's

2:54

going on around the world. Are we getting

2:57

into wars? How should we

2:59

do this? If

3:01

you're affected by what's going on in the Middle East,

3:03

I feel for you, no matter

3:06

who you are, no matter where

3:08

your people are or if you're there yourself,

3:11

it's some horrific stuff and

3:14

it's going to get worse and

3:17

I don't think we've got a clear sense

3:19

or path out. But I would

3:21

also say you never have a clear

3:24

path out and somehow they

3:27

emerge and you just got to hope we end

3:29

up making the right choices. You've

3:32

got to hope that the

3:34

good people of the world will prevail

3:36

and you got to hope that people will understand each other better

3:38

at the end of this. But

3:41

man, I know it's scary. I

3:43

know it feels awful. To

3:47

some extent, I think American

3:49

weakness allows

3:52

us to happen. I think

3:54

the fact that we can't elect a Speaker

3:58

of the House for weeks.

4:01

The fact

4:02

that there's so much infighting. The

4:05

fact that we turn against each

4:07

other instead of support each other during

4:10

a pandemic. The

4:13

fact that we have people that don't support

4:16

and believe in our democracy. You

4:19

asked me, Andy, how are all these things linked? When people

4:21

see that, they go, oh,

4:23

now's a good time to invade Ukraine.

4:27

Now's a good time to

4:29

set up a major attack against Israel,

4:31

a country that is not going

4:33

to be as well protected. Now might be a good

4:35

time to attack Taiwan. It

4:38

emboldens people with

4:40

bad ideas. And

4:43

I'm not here to tell you that the US is always

4:46

right. Far from it. If you

4:48

listen to this show, we've

4:50

talked about a lot of things we need to get better

4:53

at.

4:55

But man, we have a

4:57

country where you can speak

5:00

the truth, where you have basic

5:02

freedoms, where you have the ability

5:04

to change and improve if

5:08

we take advantage of it. And

5:11

so David Leonhard is a very

5:13

interesting guest in this context because

5:16

he went about the question of why are

5:19

we on the decline? And

5:22

look, all empires decline and

5:25

maybe this is our time to begin our decline.

5:28

I don't know. History will tell.

5:30

I think how we treat

5:32

the planet, how we treat each other, how

5:34

we assert our values in the world, we'll have a lot to

5:36

say about it. How

5:38

we deal with inequality, we'll have a lot to say about it

5:41

in my opinion. But

5:44

it's unknown. What is

5:46

clear though is since the

5:49

1980s in the face

5:51

of massive amounts of economic growth, there

5:55

are underlying signs of our decline. Our

5:58

division, it's our inequality. It's

6:01

our carelessness with one another.

6:05

It's our lack of empathy.

6:09

It's the very different lives that

6:11

we lead. And I am

6:13

not going to sit here and blame one

6:15

political party or the other

6:17

people who are screwing it up. I

6:19

think what David does quite nicely is he says, fine,

6:21

go ahead and point out

6:24

what the other side is doing

6:26

wrong. That's easy. That's the easy part.

6:29

But maybe in the process, just ask yourself

6:32

what your tribe in our

6:35

very tribal society is

6:37

getting wrong or could do better or

6:39

has lessons to learn from. And man,

6:41

I find it really valuable in talking to David

6:44

to reach a conclusion

6:46

that if we don't do that, if

6:48

we don't somehow adjust and say, hey,

6:51

we may have the best of intentions, what

6:54

we're doing is clearly not working the way

6:56

we want it to. We don't get there.

7:00

So that's the conversation with David.

7:03

Email me,

7:04

Andy Dotz-Lavitt, to lemonautomedia.com.

7:08

Listen to this show. Enjoy it. Please

7:10

come in and listen next week for our special

7:12

announcement. I'm excited

7:14

to bring you David. Here he is. David,

7:27

welcome to The Bubble. It's great to be here, Andy.

7:31

All right. As I said in my introduction,

7:33

I think you're one of the most influential

7:36

writers today around

7:38

what goes on around the world. And you've done some really serious

7:41

work and some step-back work,

7:43

which has just been a delight to read in your book.

7:46

But we have a couple things going on at the moment that we probably should

7:49

start with. Yes. Let's

7:51

talk about the Republicans in the House and Congress.

7:55

What lessons are we learning

7:58

from the situation? anybody

8:01

winning? Is there anybody emerging? Or are we simply

8:04

seeing that there

8:07

is a faction that's basically

8:09

splitting off from the

8:12

majority of Republicans and that

8:14

what we're witnessing is we're only witnessing because

8:17

it's such a close margin that

8:19

Republicans have that really empowers a

8:21

small minority. And how does this

8:23

work itself out, this whole splinter party

8:26

thing that we're seeing here?

8:30

This wouldn't happen as you

8:33

point out without the Republican

8:35

Party being so, having

8:38

such a narrow majority, right? I

8:40

mean if the Republicans had a 40 or 50 seat

8:42

majority then this faction probably

8:44

wouldn't be big enough to be determinative. But it's

8:46

not just about that because we've

8:48

had narrow control of the

8:50

House before, many times

8:53

in our history. It's not that unusual. And obviously

8:56

we've had and have narrow

8:58

control of the Senate today. And

9:01

what really stands out about

9:03

this is whatever you think

9:05

of the substance of what

9:08

the call it hard right

9:10

faction in the House wants, which

9:13

is much, much lower government spending in

9:16

a couple of targeted areas, or more than a

9:18

couple. They don't all agree on everything, but basically

9:21

it seems pretty clear they want much less spending

9:23

outside of Social Security and Medicare. That's

9:27

a policy view and people have policy

9:29

views. But what's striking about it

9:31

is the unwillingness to compromise.

9:34

And so contrast it with past

9:36

versions of the Republican Party where there also

9:39

were pretty deep differences. I mean the

9:41

Republican Party of the 50s and 60s had much deeper

9:43

differences than today's Republican Party does internally.

9:46

Or think about today's Democratic Party where you have Bernie

9:49

Sanders and Joe Manchin,

9:51

right? And I'm just picking two people,

9:54

right? We could have picked Elizabeth Warren and Kyrsten

9:56

Sinema. And yet the Democratic Party is not

9:59

going to be a party. party manages,

10:02

and Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are great examples,

10:04

they try to push the party to the left, push,

10:07

push, push the party to the left, and then they

10:09

also are willing to cut a deal. And

10:11

the fact that we have seen so many

10:14

Republicans who are just completely

10:16

unwilling to cut a deal, who are willing to play by the

10:19

normal rules of American politics,

10:22

are just sort of willing to tear the whole thing down

10:25

is what I find deeply worrisome.

10:28

And also, of course, some of these Republicans

10:30

are the same people who continue

10:33

to promote or at least tolerate lies

10:36

about what happened in the 2020 election. And

10:38

it's this just whole notion of they,

10:40

on a basic level, don't believe

10:43

in the American system of government. It

10:46

may be enough to say that in some respects, there

10:48

are more things that they don't have in common in

10:51

terms of their core belief than they have

10:53

in common. And the reason I

10:55

say that is because the reason

10:57

that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren

11:00

can get on the same page and strike

11:02

a compromise as Sanders camp

11:05

famously did with Biden and lead up

11:07

to the general election is

11:09

because the end of the day, they value winning and

11:12

beating the other side way more than

11:15

they do, whatever their differences are.

11:18

And I think what you have is people on

11:20

the far right, and this is not the case so far on

11:22

the far left, although it could end up happening,

11:25

who essentially say, we have such differences

11:29

and these differences would be worth understanding

11:31

a little bit better, that I don't

11:33

care if we win. I'm not trying to pull this

11:36

thing in a direction and when I

11:38

would rather lose than

11:40

win in a way that doesn't get

11:42

us the things that are important to us, it doesn't seem to be

11:44

important to you. And that

11:47

feels like in other countries

11:49

that results in a splintering off of

11:51

the party. A country

11:54

that's easier to do when you've got proportional representation

11:56

and coalition governments, etc., which we

11:58

don't have here. That's one of the

12:00

things that feels different.

12:02

I don't know if that difference, by the way, is

12:04

policy. I don't think that

12:07

what separates them is simply how big do

12:09

they want the government to be. I actually

12:11

think it's... I agree. It's something that is

12:13

maybe deeper and more intrinsic, which is how

12:16

fed up they are on the

12:18

extremes with anything resembling

12:20

what we have today and this

12:22

sort of strong notion that they are from

12:25

populist districts who

12:28

are, as you say, and as others

12:30

have said, ready to kind of burn

12:33

the whole thing down, even how they're feeling.

12:35

And that does get to some of the things in your book, too. Yeah.

12:38

I think that's right. I don't think this

12:40

is about policy. I think it's about basic

12:43

belief in and faith in the American system.

12:47

And we see that with January 6th. We see

12:49

that with the lies about 2020. And

12:53

we've seen it with this incredibly extended

12:56

process to pick the next Republican

12:58

speaker. And what we're getting into

13:01

really is this sort of conversation

13:03

about when do countries reach

13:06

a point where

13:09

populism and,

13:11

you know, I'll

13:13

just say anti-democratic, but, you know, I'm

13:17

trying not to pick words that actually sound judgmental. I'm

13:19

trying to pick words that sound descriptive, become

13:22

attractive. And I think, you

13:24

know, this leads a lot into

13:26

the, ours was The

13:28

Shining Future, which is the book you've written about

13:31

what's happened to the American dream. And

13:33

so a lot of the things we're seeing seem symptomatic

13:36

of something deeper. What

13:39

is that thing that is deeper? I

13:42

think the thing that's deeper is that living

13:45

standards really have stagnated for

13:48

a majority of the American population. And

13:51

depending on exactly what measure you

13:53

look at, you can say they've grown slowly or

13:55

they've not really grown much at all,

13:57

or they've even declined. I

14:00

don't think we want to too much focus

14:02

on is the sign, you know, slightly positive

14:04

or slightly negative. What we want to say is living

14:06

standards are not rising at the speed that

14:08

they used to and they're not rising at the speed

14:10

that they are for relatively well-off

14:13

people. That's true both of the

14:15

top 1% or the very, very rich,

14:17

but it's also true about a more basic

14:20

or a larger in numbers sense

14:22

class gap. There's no perfect measure

14:24

of class, but a four-year college degree is

14:27

the best one we've got, I think. If you

14:29

look at almost any of these measures by a four-year

14:31

college degree, income, wealth, life

14:34

expectancy, which I think is the most telling

14:37

measure that there is, various other social

14:39

measures, the family

14:41

structure, the number of kids growing up with two

14:43

parents, loneliness, mental health,

14:45

whether you file for disability and what's happened

14:48

to those numbers in the workplace. We

14:50

really have this incredible class

14:52

divide and the problem is

14:55

that it is just breeding so much frustration.

14:58

You'll often hear politicians

15:01

or government officials or

15:03

pundits, the kind of rooms, Andy,

15:05

you and I are often in and you'll hear

15:07

people say, why are people so angry? The

15:09

economy is growing, GDP is high, unemployment

15:12

is low. Well, I actually

15:14

think the anger is quite rational

15:17

even though it can take destructive and

15:19

hateful forms. When

15:21

you look at income growth, when you look at net

15:24

worth and then when you look at life expectancy, to

15:27

me this is the signature stat. It's

15:29

the first chart in my book and I don't have many charts in my

15:31

book. It's a book of history more than economics.

15:34

In 1980, the United States had a typical

15:36

life expectancy for a high-income country

15:39

toward the middle. Since 2005 or 2006,

15:43

we've had the lowest life expectancy of any high-income

15:45

country, lower than all the

15:47

countries of Western Europe, including Greece and Slovenia,

15:50

which are substantially less wealthy than us, lower

15:52

than Canada, lower than Japan, lower than South

15:54

Korea and Australia. That's

15:57

consistent with a lot of the economic data and it's

15:59

just so alarming. in a 13-year

16:01

gap from the top to the bottom. That's

16:03

right. So what's driving that is that class gap,

16:06

right? Life expectancy has continued to rise

16:08

for college graduates. If you're

16:10

the top 1%, your life expectancy is 89. It's

16:13

really good. Yeah. And it's risen

16:15

a lot. And that's what the most fundamental

16:18

definition of the American dream is. Yeah.

16:20

Because here's the thing. Like, as you describe

16:23

this, the beginning of your description really starts

16:26

with an economic description.

16:28

And

16:29

I think a lot of Democrats,

16:32

whether center-left or just

16:34

left, kind of view everything through the lens of policy.

16:38

And so people hear that and say, well, wait a minute. Imagine

16:40

a world where all of a sudden wages

16:43

at the lower end are moving up. And they are. They're

16:45

moving up pretty rapidly. And we have a huge investment in

16:48

industrial manufacturing, which

16:50

has begun and is underway through a lot

16:52

of the things passed in the last couple of years. And

16:54

I think if you play that out, David,

16:56

though, do you think that

16:59

more economic prosperity for

17:01

non-college educated graduates is the

17:04

entirety of the issue or is, in

17:07

fact, some of the issues around

17:09

it, like the resentment that builds

17:12

when you see people gaining faster

17:14

than you, the resentment that builds around

17:17

immigration and government programs

17:19

for people at the lowest end, the resentment that

17:21

builds, quite frankly, let's just call it what it is around

17:24

race. When there are more people

17:26

that don't look like me, live like me, whether it's

17:28

religious faith, zip code,

17:31

whatever it is. And to me, those are

17:33

economically rooted issues,

17:35

but they're also, I think, cultural

17:38

issues, which I know you want to pay a lot of attention to.

17:41

In other words,

17:42

if people say, here's great policies to solve

17:45

the economic problem at the bottom of the ladder, do

17:48

you really think that changes things or is there

17:50

something multicultural that's much harder?

17:53

I think there are two important subjects to

17:55

think about. So I do really think the economic

17:58

stagnation is the kindling for me. broader

18:00

societal frustration. And we haven't

18:02

actually lived through a period in

18:04

which the economy was really good for an

18:07

extended period for most people. You're right,

18:09

for a couple years we've had pretty decent,

18:13

at least before taking into account inflation,

18:15

wage increases toward the bottom. But inflation

18:17

has really eaten away at a lot of that.

18:20

And it's also coming after a time in which

18:23

many years in which that wage growth was really quite

18:25

bad. We haven't gotten to a point

18:27

of, wow, we've had a decade

18:30

or two decades in which things have really

18:32

been quite good for working class

18:34

and poor people and we still see this frustration.

18:36

Okay, let me just push one thing. Yeah. And

18:39

I know I wanted to keep going, but I want to... There's a little

18:41

bit of a kind of debate on this thing. Good. A

18:43

lot of what you talk about is not just culture and money, but power.

18:46

And it seems to me that for a

18:48

long, long, long time, the bottom

18:50

end of the economic spectrum had no power, very

18:53

few jobs, hard to get earnings

18:56

growth. What does seem to be happening,

18:58

and maybe it's an early sign, is

19:01

there are more forms of power accumulating

19:04

at the lower end, meaning there are

19:06

more jobs available, more choices of what to do.

19:09

I think a greater appreciation for people

19:12

working lower skilled jobs,

19:14

and in fact, more threats to people working

19:17

some of the early college educated jobs. So

19:20

I wonder if that factors into your thinking at all.

19:23

Will that power that accompanies

19:26

this help, or is it not real,

19:29

or is it still just too little relative

19:31

to the kind of wealthy college educated?

19:33

I think we don't know yet, and I promise I want to get to

19:35

the cultural part of your question, which is a really important question.

19:38

I think we don't yet know. It also would have been

19:41

very tempting if you and I were having this

19:43

conversation 25 years ago

19:46

in 1998, which we're both old

19:48

enough to remember, to have said,

19:51

ooh, the economy seems to be shifting in

19:53

ways that things are really good

19:55

for people at the bottom. Their wages have grown

19:58

quite nicely for the last couple years. So

20:00

labor markets really tight, businesses

20:02

are going to have to keep paying them, the workforce

20:05

is aging, and it just ended

20:07

up being ephemeral, right? And we

20:09

very quickly went back to this economy

20:13

in which inequality was growing. I

20:15

am not yet ready to pronounce that the last,

20:17

we're now in this similar period where it's been

20:20

pretty decent for a couple of years. I'm not

20:22

yet ready to pronounce that we're in some sunny

20:25

new economic era, in part because

20:27

the power dynamic, as you know, hasn't really

20:29

shifted yet. We see more interest in labor unions,

20:32

but we don't actually see any meaningful increase

20:34

in the number of workers in labor unions. And

20:36

I think they are the most important thing in the economy

20:38

for lower income and working class

20:41

workers. That's something I think I underestimated

20:44

how important it was earlier in my career. And as

20:46

I've spent more time reading the evidence and reporting

20:48

on it and talking to people and reading history, I

20:50

think it's really more important. So

20:53

it would be great, I

20:55

think, if we were in a period

20:57

where we didn't really need to make any more policy

21:00

changes to have inequality to kind of... I

21:02

don't think we're there. Yeah, I don't think so either.

21:05

I don't think so either. Fascinating though how

21:07

the leading candidate for the Republican and the

21:10

Democratic presidential nominations in

21:14

the case of the auto workers,

21:17

both identified with and

21:20

tried to be the champion of

21:23

the union and the working people.

21:26

I don't think if you'd have told me that in the middle of Bill

21:28

Clinton's presidency when neither

21:31

presidential candidate would have come anywhere

21:33

near that, that I would have seen how that

21:35

would be possible. And so it's

21:37

an early sign, but a sign that,

21:40

you know, look, there's a version of this which looks like

21:42

ugly populism and there's a version of this which

21:44

looks like actually power being reinstated

21:47

going to Mexico, neither party

21:49

now thinks it was a really good idea. Yes.

21:52

That feels like a shift. That feels like a shift. No,

21:54

it does feel like a shift. And one of the things, you

21:56

know, as an author and you're not sure

21:58

what the environment is when your book comes out, when

22:00

you're writing it. One thing that I feel quite

22:03

fortunate and good about is I'm trying

22:05

to write a book that argues that a bunch

22:08

of those trade policies, a bunch of those labor

22:10

policies have not worked

22:12

over the last several decades. And it

22:14

feels like the book is coming out at a time

22:16

when many people, mostly on

22:19

the left, but also some people on the right.

22:21

I mean, you see this group, American Compass, you see

22:23

a statement signed by actually sitting members of Congress,

22:25

Republicans, not the ones paralyzing the house right now,

22:28

saying labor unions are important. And so

22:30

I do think there is a reconsideration

22:33

of economic policy that is appropriate and justified.

22:36

And I think President Biden embodies

22:38

that in many ways.

22:41

And to some extent, what I've tried to do

22:43

is for people who are saying, wait a second, why

22:45

is Obama governing differently from

22:49

Obama to some extent and Clinton very clearly,

22:51

what I've tried to do is write a history that

22:54

tells the story of how

22:56

we got here to help people better

22:58

understand, oh, this

23:01

is why we see these things in the political system.

23:03

This is why we see these things in the

23:05

economy. As a reader, there's sometimes

23:07

when there's some complicated story that I don't really

23:09

understand, and I'll read a long magazine story

23:12

in the Atlantic or The New Yorker or The New York

23:14

Times Magazine, and then I'll feel like, oh, now

23:16

I get this story. Now I can actually engage

23:19

with the individual news stories. And I've basically

23:22

tried to do that with my book for

23:24

the American economy and the American political

23:26

system. Yeah, I said it. Well, I think you did it with the morning

23:28

as well. Thanks. All

23:31

right, we'll be back after a quick

23:33

break. I want to get into a little deeper

23:35

about populism and how

23:37

both parties are responding to it. And

23:40

let's

23:40

be just part of it.

23:54

So something I do actually pay a lot of attention to is

23:57

my bedsheets. I only get so many hours

23:59

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them count. So when I say I

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25:16

Hey there, it's Mary Harris and I host

25:19

Slate's daily news podcast, What

25:21

Next? It's a show I made because

25:23

I was grappling with this question. Why

25:26

is the news everywhere and I have no

25:28

idea

25:28

what to pay attention to?

25:30

My daily short podcast is here to help you

25:32

make sense of things, from fleshing out new angles

25:35

to uncovering

25:35

stories that have largely gone unreported.

25:38

When the news feels overwhelming, I'm here to help you answer,

25:41

What Next? So, let's try

25:43

it for whoever you're listening.

25:56

Thank you. It's

26:00

interesting. I talked to somebody who is

26:03

connected to the RNC

26:05

and to some of the Republican campaigns and

26:08

one of the things that he told me was that

26:10

they're doing a whole bunch of message testing now ahead

26:13

of 2024 and

26:15

the messages that test by far

26:17

the best are the anti-corporate messages. Yeah.

26:22

Anti-big tech, anti-insurance company, anti-pharmaceutical

26:25

company. I'm not sure about fossil

26:27

fuels. I don't know if that was included

26:29

in there or not. But this

26:31

is a place where the electorate

26:34

has gotten to on the Republican

26:36

side and certainly we're seeing

26:38

the Democrats who have,

26:41

as you pointed out, for some time

26:44

run on and favored cultural

26:47

issues and sometimes it

26:50

could be argued the expensive economic issues for particular

26:53

people on the lower end of the spectrum. People

26:56

starting to take notice and to pay attention.

26:59

I think the election of Trump in 2016

27:04

caused this kind of weird and

27:07

somewhat delayed soul searching on

27:10

the left and I'm not sure that that's fully been done

27:12

and embraced. But at

27:14

some level, I think it's

27:16

very hard to escape the conclusion that

27:19

if you leave people behind and

27:22

someone does a good job speaking to them, whether

27:24

they do anything, policy wise

27:26

or not, just

27:28

feeling that I'm the one that's going to make you feel heard,

27:31

that that's going to have consequences.

27:34

I remember reading a couple decades ago how demographics

27:39

were so in the favor of the Democrats and

27:42

that Republicans who were basically a

27:44

party of a shrinking, kind of well-off

27:47

corporate, laissez-faire

27:49

base as how they define themselves,

27:51

Democrats had reason to feel optimistic. I

27:54

think that when the world's broken into

27:56

down, not that way, but by uncollege

27:59

educated and college educated,

28:02

and race tends to be a little bit more valuable

28:04

there, it gets a little bit more confusing

28:07

and complicated for Democrats if they don't adjust

28:09

to it. I think that's an incredibly important point,

28:12

Andy. And so the story

28:14

that I think Democrats have

28:16

sometimes told themselves is, this

28:20

is all about race.

28:22

And

28:24

there is a lot of truth in that story

28:26

because, look, I mean, I've written

28:28

this, Donald Trump is a racist, large

28:31

parts of the Republican ... I mean, he said many racist

28:33

things over the course of his career. I

28:35

can't obviously look inside his heart, but

28:37

if you say a lot of racist things, I'm comfortable saying

28:39

you're a racist. And Donald Trump has been in

28:42

his career. The Republican Party is

28:44

very comfortable race-baiting,

28:47

playing footsie with people who clearly are

28:49

white nationalists. And that appeals

28:52

to a distressingly large number of

28:55

voters. I think the mistake

28:57

that the Democratic Party has made, and it

28:59

tends to be among fairly well-off

29:02

Democrats, is

29:05

saying it's all that. The

29:07

only people who aren't voting for us

29:10

are either so rich that they're

29:12

selfish or they're ignorant

29:15

and bigoted. Right? So

29:18

what are they missing? So what are they missing? Tell us what

29:20

they're missing. So here's what I think

29:22

they're missing. So again, I just want to emphasize this.

29:24

Yes, there is huge truth in there, right? We

29:27

live in a terribly racist society

29:29

in many ways, and the Republican Party is often

29:32

comfortable or promotes that. But

29:34

here's what I think is really important to look at. Over

29:38

the last several years, roughly

29:40

five years, we have seen a very

29:42

clear shift among Asian

29:45

American voters, particularly

29:47

in large metropolitan areas, among Latino

29:50

voters, particularly in the South, Texas,

29:52

and Florida, but also nationwide. And

29:55

although the numbers are smaller, among black voters,

29:58

we have seen a shift away from the Democratic Party.

29:59

party and toward the Republican party.

30:03

Now I never bought the

30:06

very, for the political left, kind of convenient

30:08

argument that the only way people don't vote for us is

30:11

because they're wealthy or they're

30:13

ignorant and bigoted.

30:15

But if you were tempted by that argument,

30:17

because sometimes people put fancy social

30:20

science around it, which I don't find persuasive,

30:22

but I would really ask you

30:24

to reflect on what's happened over the last five

30:26

years. So what's the why part? Because

30:29

I think large numbers of working class voters across

30:31

every race, white, black, Latino, and Asian, look

30:34

at the Democratic party and think it is disdainful

30:37

of many of their views. Many working class

30:39

voters across races have complex feelings

30:41

on abortion. They don't want these

30:44

six week bans, which are basically total

30:46

bans, but they're also comfortable with the idea

30:48

that there will be some restrictions. Many

30:50

working class voters across races really

30:53

care about border security and are quite

30:56

worried about the levels of immigration we've seen.

30:58

Large parts of the Democratic party now basically believe

31:01

in something that isn't that different from open borders,

31:03

even though they reject that phrase. What they say is

31:05

basically, if you make it to this country, we should

31:08

let you stay, right? If you've made it here,

31:10

we should figure out a way not to deport you. And

31:12

a lot of voters, a lot of Latino voters,

31:15

a lot of voters of other races as well in

31:18

Florida and Texas, look at that Democratic

31:20

position and say, no, thank you. You

31:22

and I have talked a lot about COVID. One

31:25

of the post 2020 polls that tried

31:27

to ask why Latinos moved to

31:29

the right in Texas was they were frustrated

31:32

by lockdowns. And I

31:34

think it's not just that the Democratic

31:37

party has a set of positions here that are to

31:39

the left of where many working class people

31:41

are. It's that the Democratic party,

31:44

and particularly some of its loudest

31:46

megaphones in the media, in academia,

31:49

in Hollywood, have said to the other side,

31:52

your position isn't only wrong. It's

31:54

stupid. It's bad. It's

31:57

ignorant. It's ignorant. And people hear

31:59

that and they say that.

32:01

That's not my party. You're going to tell me I'm killing people

32:03

by trying to reopen this business or reopen

32:05

the school? No thanks, right? You're

32:07

going to tell me that I'm a terrible person because

32:10

I believe in border security? No

32:12

thanks. Yeah. And I

32:14

think I assume you'd add crime to that list as well.

32:16

I would add crime to that list. And you know, crime

32:18

has a really fascinating history. When crime

32:20

started to rise in this country, I tell

32:22

the story of the great Plymouth male robbery

32:24

outside of Massachusetts in my book,

32:27

which is just this incredible caper

32:29

of a bank robbery outside

32:31

of Boston in the early 1960s. And I tell

32:34

it because it's really the beginning of this huge

32:36

boom in modern, huge boom of crime

32:38

in the 60s and 70s. And I went back and I read

32:41

all these publications. And

32:43

Andy, I love the mainstream media. I'm in the

32:45

mainstream media, but it was so

32:47

dismissive during those early years of the

32:49

idea that crime was rising. And we now know,

32:51

in retrospect, it clearly was rising. And

32:54

we've had a version of that in recent years, which is crime

32:56

really did rise in the last few years. Then

32:58

it leveled off. And I just worry

33:01

that large parts of the left have just said,

33:03

you know, now crime is falling while ignoring

33:06

the fact that actually it rose a lot. And

33:08

as you just said, crime is an issue that a lot of

33:10

working class people really are

33:13

concerned about. And so I think it's

33:15

important for the Democratic

33:17

Party, if it cares about winning elections,

33:20

to really think about what are truly the

33:22

issues on which we absolutely refuse to

33:24

compromise, and what are the things

33:26

in which people of good faith might

33:29

actually be able to disagree and

33:31

still belong to the same political

33:34

coalition.

33:36

Yeah, no, it's fascinating. As I've said

33:38

to you before, David, and

33:40

I said in the introduction, one of

33:42

the things that makes you different,

33:45

and I appreciate about you, is it's

33:48

very easy to sort through and pick

33:51

in today's digital age the

33:53

opinion pieces or the articles in the New York

33:55

Times that have headlines that you know agree with

33:58

your point of view. And

34:01

it's also fine to read things where you don't know what your point of

34:03

view is and get informed. What

34:05

you do is this sort of special thing, which

34:07

I'm sure some love you for and some hate you for,

34:10

which is you make

34:13

it okay for people to question

34:15

why they might not be right in what

34:17

they believe for quite some time, why their orthodoxy

34:21

might change. I

34:23

think keeping an open mind in this climate

34:25

is really hard. I mean, we all think we have open

34:27

minds, but we're so cemented. And

34:30

all of us into our tribes. Do

34:33

you feel like you were able to

34:35

approach these issues with some sort of

34:37

plasticity and being

34:40

informed? Do you feel like you've had occasions

34:42

where you've had to say and have been

34:44

willing to say, oh, I thought about it one way. Now

34:47

I think about it a different way. Do

34:49

you think we've lost that?

34:53

Do I have you right? Yeah.

34:56

You certainly have what I aspire to. And I

34:58

am sure that I often

35:01

fail to live up to what I aspire

35:03

to. But I really do try to question

35:06

my own beliefs. I do try to give

35:08

readers evidence that is more and less

35:10

convenient. And

35:13

so I already mentioned labor unions.

35:15

I do think I paid insufficient

35:17

attention to the importance of labor

35:20

unions early in my career. And I sort

35:22

of thought of them as this kind of old fashioned

35:24

thing. And look, I've been in a

35:26

labor union. I've been frustrated by

35:28

how inefficient it was. I've been a manager

35:31

who had to manage people in a labor union. I

35:33

was frustrated by aspects of that inefficiency.

35:35

Labor unions have flaws. The thing is, if we have an economy

35:38

with powerful corporations and really weak

35:40

labor unions, no one can hold the flaws

35:42

of the corporation accountable. And

35:45

we end up with an economy like the one we have. So I think the

35:47

importance of labor unions is something that I was somewhat

35:49

off about. I think trade, which you also

35:52

mentioned, is something that I, like many

35:55

relatively privileged

35:57

Democrats... Educated people. Yeah,

36:00

I just think you look at the evidence

36:03

about what this massive boom

36:05

in trade, particularly with China, has done.

36:08

It's been really great for China, and I don't say

36:10

that dismissively. It's lifted huge

36:12

numbers of people in China and in

36:14

Asia out of poverty. That's a phenomenal...

36:17

And for US consumers. It's been good for US consumers.

36:19

It's been good for US consumers, but none of us is only

36:22

a consumer. That's the thing. Well,

36:24

I should say this. People who are primarily

36:26

impacted by trade as a consumer, but

36:29

their jobs are not threatened by

36:31

it. It feels... There was a lot

36:33

of short-term benefit. Yes. Things

36:36

were cheaper. People could afford luxury

36:38

goods, this sort of mass

36:40

standardization. But I

36:42

think at the same time that was happening, there

36:44

were a whole bunch of people going, well, I'm sure everybody else was getting

36:46

their jobs retrained somehow, somewhere. And

36:50

of course, leaving behind that there's

36:52

actual real impact to people who's primarily

36:55

not a consumer. That's not the only

36:57

way they interact with the issue. No, that's right. Can

36:59

I mention one other thing? Because a part

37:01

of what I'm suggesting for people

37:04

on the political left is ask which

37:06

issues you might be willing to compromise on. And

37:09

so I just want to give one example

37:12

that helps me think about this. I've written

37:14

a whole bunch of columns over the years

37:16

about how a successful and valuable and important

37:18

a tax on sweetened beverages could be, a

37:20

soda tax. I really believe

37:23

the technocratic merits for a soda tax are super

37:25

strong. Look at Singapore. Yeah.

37:28

Yeah, look at Singapore. You just look at anywhere that's basically

37:31

adopted one, Mexico. And I think the

37:33

political opposition to it overwhelmingly comes

37:35

from Coke and Pepsi and other soda companies that care

37:37

a lot more about how much money they make than about the

37:39

health of Americans. I just think soda

37:42

taxes are a great policy. I also

37:44

have come to think that

37:47

my positive writing about them had

37:49

an arrogance to it and a little bit of classism

37:52

to it. If you look at

37:54

polls and if you look at when soda taxes

37:56

appeared on the ballot, a lot of people

37:59

say, hey, you know what?

38:00

But a soda is

38:02

a small luxury for me. I like having

38:05

a Coke. And I don't want

38:07

you coming to tax it. And

38:10

the more I've thought about it, the more I've thought,

38:13

you know what?

38:15

I still think it's like technocratically

38:17

the right position. But I don't write

38:19

about it the way I used to anymore. I'm

38:22

more deferential to public opinion.

38:24

I'm particularly deferential to public opinion

38:27

among people who are less fortunate than I am. And

38:29

I think what I've been saying, here's where I push you back a little bit, is your job

38:32

isn't to be popular. I mean, I think you can

38:34

acknowledge that it may not be the right time. But

38:36

I think for you to say, here's why this is

38:38

still the right idea, and it may not be for 10 or 15

38:41

years. For 10 or 15 years,

38:43

you may look like an idiot. People who

38:45

were pushing for cigarette bans and restaurants

38:48

and stuff looked like an idiot for a time.

38:50

But now they don't. So I'd say as a writer,

38:53

you know, you got to be willing to

38:55

stick with those things you think. And as you acknowledge,

38:58

you understand why it's hard. That's

39:00

a very fair critique. And I've not written something saying

39:02

a soda tax is a bad idea. It affects

39:05

the sort of volume and frequency of it.

39:07

And I just raise it because, look,

39:11

I would just ask other people to think, what's an issue

39:13

in which you genuinely believe

39:15

in, which you can also imagine

39:18

being part of a political coalition

39:21

with someone who feels differently? Can you imagine

39:23

being part of a political coalition with

39:25

someone who even if you believe in

39:28

complete reproductive rights and full

39:31

access to abortion at any point in pregnancy,

39:33

could you imagine being part of a coalition with

39:35

somebody who believes

39:38

in restrictions starting in

39:40

the second or third trimester? And

39:43

apply that to a whole series of issues. And if your answer

39:46

on issue after issue after issue after issue is no,

39:48

I couldn't, the problem you're going to have is

39:50

if you're on the left, you're going to end up with a very small political

39:53

coalition that is overwhelmingly made

39:55

up of quite privileged people. Okay.

39:58

So let me let me make the case to you.

39:59

think this is exclusively a problem

40:02

of the left. And in fact, why I think it's more a problem of the

40:04

right than the left. I think the right is done

40:06

to their benefit. They've

40:09

been better at being single issue voters, whether

40:11

it's judges or abortion

40:13

or what have you, and have been extreme

40:16

and firm and have been able to find the

40:18

issues that have gotten people to the ballot. But

40:20

that has also left them with a very uncompromising

40:23

bent, a la our earlier conversation that we

40:26

had around what's going on in the House. I

40:29

will say that if you want to look

40:31

at who's getting stuff done, and this will be my defense

40:33

of the left in some respect, pushing for

40:36

decades plus or more on

40:39

guns and finally walking away with a small

40:41

victory, smaller than they wanted, that

40:43

they built consensus and got a bipartisan bill done,

40:46

climate, saying we are not going to compromise

40:48

on climate, but we are going to compromise

40:51

with Manchin, who I think represented folks

40:54

who are saying, I don't think we should do this

40:56

with a carbon tax, which I think very

40:59

much like a soda tax is

41:02

clearly to me the right answer, but it's not

41:04

what the country was ready for. And they said, you know what, we'll do this

41:06

with positive incentives and build a new economy. Prescription

41:09

drug costs, which I think would

41:11

not have happened if the Democrats hadn't pushed

41:14

hard in an area that's very popular for

41:16

the public. And so I think that the

41:18

case that, and I'm curious how you would answer the question of

41:20

what case the Democrats have to make

41:23

against some of those positions

41:25

that you rightly, I think fairly pointed out,

41:29

is that like there are issues of really

41:32

strong, broad public consensus

41:35

vary 60, 70%, 80% want something done on guns. Why

41:39

did something done on prescription drugs?

41:42

Strong segments of the population who feel like,

41:44

yes, we are part of climate change and we need to do something.

41:47

Lots of argument for sure on what

41:50

costs we should take on in order to make, and how quick

41:52

the transition should be. But Democrats

41:54

have been right on those issues

41:57

and left to their own devices that for public has been in

41:59

charge.

41:59

We would be doing absolutely nothing about any of those

42:02

issues. Totally fair. And look, the

42:04

Democratic Party has been a much more functional

42:06

party for several decades now. I

42:09

mean, really, the only thing the Republican Party has gotten done is cut

42:11

taxes for rich people from a legislative

42:13

perspective, right? Obviously, the

42:16

appointment of Supreme Court justices has

42:18

allowed the rollback of reproductive rights. But

42:21

the Democratic Party has done much, much more. You just

42:24

gave a really good list. I

42:26

think I would ask Democrats

42:28

to reflect on the following.

42:31

Democrats basically

42:33

can't win a statewide election in something

42:35

like 20 states in the United States.

42:38

And as you just talked about,

42:41

Democrats thought, hey, you know what? Florida

42:43

is purple, but it's about to be blue. Instead,

42:46

it's become more red, not

42:48

just in the most recent election. So

42:50

I'm not just talking about places like Alabama

42:53

or Wyoming. Democrats basically

42:56

don't win statewide elections in North Carolina,

42:58

in Florida, in Texas, with

43:01

the notable exception of Sherrod Brown,

43:03

who I think is worth talking about because he's

43:06

not a kind of mushy moderate, but he's

43:08

also not a culture warrior. They don't win

43:10

in Ohio. And so

43:13

to some extent, I would answer your question with a question.

43:16

Why this can't be gerrymandering. We're talking about

43:18

full states, right? Why

43:21

is it that the Democratic message has become

43:25

so unpopular among the majority

43:27

of people in something like 20 states

43:30

that Democrats can basically never win? And

43:32

whatever the answer to that question is,

43:35

I would say if Democrats could unlock,

43:37

Democrats are on the side of public opinion on every

43:40

issue like guns, and somehow we can't

43:42

win. And then there's sort of a lot of, it must be

43:44

gerrymandering. Well, it's not just gerrymandering,

43:47

and it's not just Republicans cheating. It's

43:49

not just voting rights yet. It's right. Okay,

43:52

let's hold that thought. Let's do one final break. I

43:54

want to continue this conversation exactly where we're leaving it

43:57

off. And then I want to go to... beyond

44:00

the election cycle like what

44:02

gives us reason for optimism and

44:05

I'm going to really challenge you if you really believe it. Okay,

44:07

we'll be right back with David.

44:18

Hi, I'm June Diane Raphael. And

44:21

I'm Jessica St. Clair. And each

44:23

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44:25

all about life twists, turns

44:28

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44:30

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45:14

In 2022, the US Supreme

45:16

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45:19

Since then, it's been a barrage of

45:21

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45:23

headlines, there

45:24

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45:26

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45:29

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45:31

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45:34

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45:36

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45:39

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45:41

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45:57

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46:12

I agree that the first impulse of

46:16

the political left is

46:19

to grasp the...got all the polls favor

46:21

us on all these issues and I think

46:23

she pointed out not so cleanly, by the way.

46:26

But by the way, we are very tribal from at least

46:28

a zip code standpoint. There are obviously

46:30

strong Republican pockets here in

46:32

California and very strong Democratic

46:35

pockets in Texas and Ohio. So

46:37

one thing seems certain that a

46:40

lot of the motivation on

46:43

either side of this coming election is

46:45

to really vote against the other guy. And

46:48

that's kind of a despairing kind

46:50

of thought. I want to close by

46:53

something you said earlier which

46:55

is, hey, if you read my book,

46:57

it really has an optimistic message at the end which

47:00

I'm kind of like, you

47:03

know, I think he felt obligated not to

47:06

leave us. No, no. No,

47:08

no. But I wanted to see where this optimism comes from but

47:11

before that I want to talk about optimism itself. Yes.

47:15

Because optimism to some extent, as you say

47:17

in your book, has been an ongoing

47:20

feature of

47:22

our country over the

47:24

last couple of centuries. There's always

47:26

been big problems. There's always

47:29

been big divisions. We've

47:32

had enslaved people in this country. We've been

47:35

voting right to vote for 100 years. We've

47:38

had serious, serious,

47:41

serious structural racism through

47:43

the 1960s, 50 years ago and serious

47:47

ongoing racism and xenophobia and

47:49

antisemitism that goes on today. Yes.

47:52

Yet through it all, there has

47:54

been good evidence that there's

47:56

reason to be optimistic about not

47:59

just our own future but the future

48:01

of our kids and our grandkids and

48:04

it is a deeply different feeling as you

48:06

call you cause us at one point in the book to do a thought experiment

48:08

to say imagine if

48:11

you didn't feel like that was owed

48:13

to you or promised to you or part of this American

48:16

system we live in and

48:18

yet optimism feels to some extent like

48:20

a self-fulfilling prophecy

48:23

not entirely that there's a lot of facts at fault

48:25

but to some extent once you lose

48:27

that optimism there's a whole bunch

48:29

of stuff that follows economically you invest

48:32

less you take fewer risks you're

48:34

willing to offer people jobs to be

48:36

entrepreneurial and all the things that may

48:38

drive progress and economic growth

48:41

but also just your generosity to others

48:43

when you're feeling optimistic you're willing

48:45

to share your attitudes and community

48:47

are different when you're feeling under

48:49

threat when you're feeling pessimistic when you're feeling like

48:51

things are shrinking on you your attitudes

48:54

change so

48:55

maybe start there like what

48:58

is happening to the sense of optimism and

49:01

then I'm really going to challenge you to say and the

49:03

face of everything you said what

49:05

gives you the right to sit here and go yeah we should

49:07

feel optimistic

49:09

or at least we should have reason for

49:11

hope those are subtly different but I

49:15

do think that rising living

49:17

standards are creative virtuous

49:19

cycle and stagnant living standards create

49:22

a vicious cycle and I think

49:24

as you point out for so much of our history

49:27

people have been able to say well life

49:29

is getting better and so I'm willing

49:31

to be more generous to my fellow citizens

49:34

I'm willing to endure hard times I'm willing

49:36

to make sacrifices I tell

49:38

the story of my own family my great-grandfather

49:41

couldn't get a job as an opera singer

49:43

in Europe because he was Jewish

49:45

he moved to the United States he got a job as an opera singer

49:48

and then he got fired because he was Austrian and they

49:50

were firing all the Austrians and Germans in World

49:52

War one and he died alone in

49:54

New York at age 40 and

49:56

that's obviously a horrible story but

49:59

I when I think about that story and then I think about

50:01

my family's own trajectory since then that

50:04

gives me reason for basic faith in

50:06

this country. And you instead

50:09

think about communities where people

50:11

look back and they say, wow,

50:13

I think things really might have been better

50:15

for my grandparents. They didn't have

50:17

opioids. They had solid jobs. It

50:20

just engenders a very different feeling.

50:23

And I think that is why it is so

50:25

important for particularly those

50:27

of us who are fortunate enough to

50:30

really have had rising living standards, which is broadly

50:32

true of college graduates in this country, to

50:34

reflect on how corrosive it is

50:37

to American society to have

50:39

so many people who have not been

50:41

so fortunate.

50:42

That's so true.

50:44

And yet that doesn't leave me feeling optimistic. No,

50:47

that's fair. So here's something that

50:50

I hope will, a little story and a larger idea. So

50:53

this is one of my favorite chapters

50:56

in the book. In the early 20th century,

50:58

there was someone growing up in Jacksonville,

51:00

Florida named Asa Randolph. His

51:03

mom ran a little sewing business out of their home

51:05

and Jacksonville, his dad was an AME preacher.

51:08

His parents insisted that their kids read not

51:10

just the Bible, but Jane Austen and Charles

51:13

Darwin. And Asa Randolph eventually

51:15

makes his way to New York. He takes night classes

51:17

at City College. He becomes a street

51:19

preacher, a soapbox orator during

51:21

the Harlem Renaissance. And he starts writing.

51:24

And he decides, well, if I'm going to write, I need a more

51:26

august byline than Asa Randolph.

51:29

So he uses a version of his full name, which will be

51:31

familiar to many people, A. Philip Randolph.

51:34

And he eventually gets recruited to try to organize

51:36

a union of railroad workers,

51:39

maids and porters,

51:42

almost all black,

51:43

the largest employer of black Americans at the

51:45

time, the Pullman Railcar Company. And

51:47

this is like the greatest underdog

51:50

social movement in history. On the one side,

51:52

you have people trying to unionize at a time

51:54

in the 1920s when unions always

51:56

lost. They lost like every fight they

51:58

ever started.

51:59

They're not just trying to organize any workers, they're trying to organize

52:02

black workers at a time when Jim

52:04

Crow ruled. And Randolph and the

52:06

Porters and Maids endure failure

52:09

after failure over many years. And

52:11

finally, for a mix of reasons, Washington

52:15

becomes on their side. They keep organizing

52:17

people. They succeed. And

52:19

the Pullman Company realizes it actually has to negotiate

52:22

with them because the federal government is going to force them to. And

52:25

the Porters earn these huge

52:27

raises. I mean, 30% raises for the Maids, 15% raises for the

52:29

Porters, 40% reduction in hours, which just

52:35

makes you think about, oh my God, how many hours

52:37

were they working before? And

52:40

I like the story of A. Philip

52:42

Randolph, both because he's just a wonderful

52:45

character. There's this confrontation between

52:47

him and FDR in the Oval Office that

52:49

I describe. But also because

52:52

A. Philip Randolph had so much

52:54

more reason to be pessimistic

52:57

and to lose hope than we do today.

53:00

And instead of losing hope, he

53:02

basically responded by using

53:05

the American system to reform the

53:07

American system. And I think that's

53:09

the most hopeful message I took from looking over

53:11

the past century. The thing that has changed this

53:13

country is grassroots political movements.

53:16

It's true of the civil rights movement. It's true of the

53:18

labor movement. It's true of the women's movement. It's

53:20

true of the disability rights movement. It's true

53:22

of movements on the political right as well. And

53:26

so I really do think, I know

53:28

so many people think democracy is rigged. I

53:30

know the stagnant living standards make more

53:32

people feel democracy is rigged. But

53:34

I think the only solution to

53:37

our problems involves political

53:39

movements that try to lift the living standards

53:42

of most people and win people over

53:45

to those movements. And I think if that

53:47

could happen, I think the American

53:49

system remains flexible enough,

53:52

American democracy remains flexible enough that

53:54

the solution to our economic and

53:56

democratic problems is more

53:59

democracy.

54:01

So, I do feel that thread

54:03

in not

54:06

just this book but in putting in

54:08

your column. And

54:11

part of what

54:13

it tells me and I believe in this

54:15

is that leadership

54:17

plays a role, right? I

54:20

mean, if you look at Martin Luther King, you look at Mahatma

54:22

Gandhi, you look at people that were extraordinary

54:24

individuals that were able to help

54:27

overcome and were iconic enough

54:29

to draw people in. And your book

54:31

is full of them, not just A. Philip Randolph,

54:34

Cesar Chavez, Robert Kennedy, Paul

54:36

Hoffman, Grace Hopper, you

54:39

feature a lot of these people. What

54:41

I wonder though is if you were going to write this book about

54:44

who are the leaders who are most

54:46

influencing our world today, it wouldn't

54:49

be Ai-jen Poo, it would be Elon Musk, it

54:51

would be Jeff Bezos. You know,

54:54

it would be maybe, maybe it would be Steve Jobs.

54:57

It may be it's the way that the internet has restructured

54:59

power and capital

55:02

and influence and ideas

55:05

but none of that feels particularly grassroots

55:08

to me. And you

55:10

know, I think we looked at the internet as this potentially

55:13

very empowering tool for grassroots

55:17

and to some extent it obviously is. But

55:19

I look at the money and the power

55:22

that even drives some of those movements

55:24

and it's a mixed picture as to

55:27

where leadership is going to come from. I hope you

55:30

are correct and that the right kind of leaders

55:32

emerge. I hope that people step

55:35

up at times and in ways quite honestly it's

55:37

why I left what I was doing for a few months ago

55:39

joined by the administration at the

55:41

beginning of the pandemic was

55:43

why a lot of people I think are motivated

55:46

and driven to do whatever it

55:48

is that they think is the thing that they can do to contribute.

55:52

But I think this sense that I don't

55:54

think it's just being felt by non-college educated

55:57

folks, I think it's being felt throughout society.

56:00

that we have a handful of people, a very

56:03

small handful of people with so

56:05

much accumulated

56:07

power and wealth that they're influencing the outcome of wars,

56:09

let alone politics. Yeah, that's

56:11

true. It is true. And I think

56:16

we have some challenges we didn't have before

56:18

and I am not predicting that we are destined

56:21

to overcome our problems. I just think we have

56:23

the potential to overcome our problems and

56:25

I think when you look at the United States of the early

56:27

20th century in terms of income

56:29

inequality, in terms of the kind of barriers

56:31

that Randolph and others faced, I

56:34

actually think there's a lot of similarity in terms of just

56:37

how much of an obstacle the

56:39

Supreme Court was to a lot of this stuff.

56:42

And so I do not think it's inevitable

56:44

that we're going to overcome this. I just

56:47

think it's possible and I think there

56:49

have been more recent successful grassroots

56:51

movements that have won great victories

56:54

like the LGBT rights movement. I

56:56

mean the amount of progress that movement has made

56:58

quickly. No question. So I still think grassroots

57:00

political success is big ones, surprising

57:03

ones, are possible in in this

57:05

country today. Totally, totally agree. Climate,

57:07

guns, LGBT

57:09

rights, I agree and I do think that

57:11

is a real source of optimism. But

57:14

I had to challenge it because you're still going to challenging me

57:16

every single morning. David Leonhardt,

57:19

so good of you to be here. His book, Ours

57:21

was the Shining Future, it's the story of the American

57:23

Dream, is out, it's worth reading.

57:26

We're going to undergo some change of this

57:28

show soon and one of the things I'm going

57:31

to do is I'm planning to tell people

57:33

what I think are the 10 best resources for

57:35

being informed and

57:38

if you're thinking at a kind of ongoing

57:40

basis and I actually think your newsletter

57:42

The Morning from the New York Times, which

57:45

everybody can get, is one of the

57:47

ten things that I think is a must-do

57:49

source for understanding

57:52

the world these days and so I

57:54

thank you for that. Thank you.

57:57

First of all, thank you so much. That's really nice

57:59

of you today. And second of all,

57:59

Let me just underline anyone can get it. You

58:02

don't have to be a subscriber to the New York Times our

58:04

newsletter Like the daily podcast

58:06

is free to everyone whether or not you're

58:08

a subscriber Thank you

58:11

David. Thank you, Andy

58:25

Thank you David,

58:26

thank you for listening next week

58:30

We are scheduled to have Matt Iglesias

58:32

I think but it may be something else Stay

58:35

tuned. It's that's gonna be a good show. And as I

58:37

said, I've got a special announcement to make as

58:40

well then we have the mother

58:42

of all Covid

58:45

podcasts because we have basically

58:49

Bob Wachter, Eric Topol, Kaitlyn

58:52

Jettalina, Ashish Jha Andy

58:54

Slavitt all hanging out and rapping

58:57

in a way. I think you're gonna find really reflective

58:59

fun interesting and even

59:01

an announce of fun stuff That's

59:03

coming up in a couple weeks. So thank you for

59:06

being here. Have a great week I'll

59:09

be thinking about you until next week Thank

59:17

you for listening in the bubble if you like what

59:20

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