0:02

This is the In Focus Podcast from

0:04

the Hindu. Hello

0:13

and welcome to another edition of the

0:15

In Focus Podcast. I'm your host, Jee

0:17

Sampath. India

0:20

is seeing an increase in ghost shopping

0:22

malls according to a new report by

0:25

Real Estate Consultancy Nightfrank India. The

0:28

report titled Think India Think Retail

0:30

2024 has found that

0:33

in 2023 there was straight

0:35

13.3 million square feet of

0:37

ghost shopping infrastructure across 29

0:40

cities leading to a loss of

0:42

about 798 million US dollars. Now by definition a

0:47

ghost shopping mall is one where the

0:49

vacancy rate of retail space is above

0:51

40%. If we counted only

0:54

the 8 tier 1 cities

0:57

in India, the pan India

0:59

vacancy rate across all categories of malls

1:01

stood at 15.7%. Also while tier 1 cities had

1:03

271 shopping malls in 2022, the

1:05

number has

1:11

come down to 263 in

1:13

2023. So what

1:15

is the reason behind this phenomenon of

1:18

ghost shopping malls and high vacancy rates?

1:21

Is it because offline shopping is

1:23

giving way to online purchases? Is

1:26

it due to weakening consumer demand? Or

1:28

is it because of bad planning

1:30

of these shopping centers? Or are

1:32

there other industry specific dynamics at

1:35

play? We discuss all these

1:37

questions about India's retail sector in

1:39

this episode of In Focus and

1:41

we have with us Mr. Gulam

1:43

Zia, Senior Executive Director at Night

1:45

Tramp India. Mr. Zia,

1:47

thank you so much for joining us and welcome

1:49

to In Focus. Good afternoon,

1:51

Sampradat. It's a pleasure to talk to you

1:54

and to be a part of this platform.

2:00

focus on that report that we

2:02

recently released is we are

2:04

very pleased to be a part of this

2:06

discussion because when we put together our

2:08

analytics and data into a

2:11

report, we would love to see

2:13

people debating, discussing, contesting

2:15

and if it is good,

2:18

appreciating. So this is something which

2:20

I would love to be a part of. So over

2:22

to you if you want to start the

2:24

barrage of questions that you would have in mind.

2:28

Great, great. Thank you so much. Thank you.

2:30

Thank you and it's really pleased to have

2:32

you with us here. So recently we had

2:34

to start with, I mean, I just want

2:36

to set a personal context to this entire

2:39

barrage of questions. You know, recently I happened

2:41

to visit a mall in Noida that used

2:43

to be a really happening place before the

2:45

pandemic. Obviously I can't take the name of

2:47

that mall now. Now when it wears a

2:50

really deserted look, most of the shops are

2:52

shut and the only major hub of activity

2:54

in that mall was the supermarket in the

2:56

basement. Now I assume this is

2:59

part of this phenomenon of ghost shopping malls

3:01

that your report refers to. Now

3:03

I'm just curious what's behind this phenomenon

3:05

of ghost shopping malls and how big

3:07

a role did the pandemic play in

3:09

this? I'm making the pandemic up because

3:11

a lot of people assume that the

3:13

pandemic led to some kind of, you

3:16

know, a real shock for the various

3:18

shopping malls because of restrictions, lockdowns and

3:20

so on. Well,

3:23

since we're talking about

3:25

the COVID or the pandemic,

3:27

so let's start with that.

3:29

You know, something which

3:32

COVID did to all of us is

3:35

to make us realize that we

3:38

can be in our comfort zones

3:40

of our houses or wherever we

3:42

are and

3:44

order things and consume. That

3:47

whole while it was e-commerce was

3:49

always there, but

3:51

dependency of e-commerce, on

3:53

e-commerce was something which was

3:56

vividly, you

3:58

know, it's grilling. to us. We know

4:00

exactly how we survived those years and a half

4:02

or so during COVID. So on the

4:09

other side, very sure that

4:11

people who hooked up to

4:13

e-commerce are today

4:15

looking at brick and mortar retail

4:18

as something which they can live

4:20

without unless there's a strong reason.

4:23

And that is exactly where things

4:25

are now completely hinged. What

4:28

is that strong reason? Why, how would

4:30

you pull people out of their comfort

4:32

zone of e-commerce and bring them into

4:35

a shopping center, a physical experience?

4:39

And a lot of things go into it. Your question was

4:42

what is behind a

4:44

phenomenon of whether you call it go

4:46

small or whatever else you want to

4:48

name it. You know, it's not just

4:51

one thing. It's not just one pandemic.

4:53

It's not just lack

4:55

of proper design

4:57

elements, lack of right mix

4:59

of retailers or physical

5:01

infrastructure to reach, connect, park, a

5:03

lot of those things go into

5:05

it. And then we're

5:08

talking about an experience and experience has

5:10

to be more than

5:12

what you would enjoy ordering something

5:14

at home and

5:17

consuming it. So

5:19

the whole idea since your question was

5:21

about what are the reasons, the

5:24

idea of multiple things coming into

5:26

it and affecting

5:28

the situation on ground and

5:30

hence amount of noida,

5:33

whatever one that you're referring to,

5:35

all likelihood may have seen more

5:37

than one of these reasons to

5:39

come into place. So it

5:41

is not just COVID but also

5:43

lack of proper brandings

5:46

or proper retail experience,

5:49

lack of maybe parking etc. I want to believe

5:51

most of them have given proper parking. So may

5:53

not be a reason but physical

5:55

connectivity would also play an important role

5:58

and above all. an experience

6:01

of visiting a mall, it is

6:03

not just about consumption. So

6:06

you have a lot of those even management,

6:09

the importance of even management also kicks

6:11

in. So if you want a

6:13

buyer to come to your mall every

6:16

once in a month, at least if not every

6:18

week or a fortnight, then you

6:20

have to ensure that there is a unique

6:22

experience every time which brings him or her

6:24

back to the mall every time. So

6:27

it is not simply consumption, it's

6:29

not simply buying something, it's

6:31

much more than that. We all

6:33

knew that recreation, maybe you know,

6:35

FEC is family entertainment centers or

6:38

theaters or a

6:40

lot of those FNB options, etc.

6:43

But over and above, you know, a

6:45

simple experience of shopping. So for example,

6:47

if I have to go buy myself

6:49

a good pair of sports shoes, it's

6:52

not just that sports shoe I'm buying. I'm

6:54

going in because I want to perhaps see a

6:56

movie or if I have a

6:58

family, I would want them to enjoy an hour

7:00

or two of good time in the game zone

7:03

or above all, maybe have a good

7:06

lunch or a dinner. So

7:08

this is not just a pair of shoes,

7:10

it's much more than that. And

7:12

then of course, coming to the specifics of the shoe

7:15

that I want to buy, it's once

7:17

again, it's a touch and feel. I want

7:19

to try that before I actually pay that

7:21

money. Well, e-commerce gives you that option to

7:24

replace exchange or whatever. But

7:26

that said, you still would not be

7:29

so pleased with an experience of, you

7:31

know, getting a delivery, sending

7:33

it back, waiting for it to come back, a

7:35

change one or a replace one. All

7:37

those things are still not very comfortable.

7:40

Of course, a lot of them actually go check

7:42

out a particular product and come home and order

7:44

it on e-commerce. That's also a possibility and which

7:47

is also happening a lot. But

7:49

that said, coming to Morn is

7:51

much more than just consumption. And

7:54

hence, as I said, if you're talking

7:56

about a specific case, it could

7:58

be multiple reasons for the failure. of a

8:01

mall to turn them or turn it

8:03

into a gross mall. I hope

8:05

I answered that question at length. Right.

8:07

Thank you for that. I really appreciate

8:10

that. Yeah, that was a really comprehensive

8:12

sort of overview of the various factors

8:14

that could be responsible for this phenomenon.

8:16

When I take your point that, you know, it's no

8:18

longer just about consumption. It's

8:20

an experience that draws people to

8:23

the shopping mall. And also secondly,

8:25

when during the COVID times, there

8:28

was a lot of dependency on online, but

8:30

that's not really the case. Now people really

8:32

want some kind of an experience, which is

8:35

often with their family. So there are a lot

8:37

of other factors which could play

8:39

a role. We will come to those individual factors

8:41

later in this. But before

8:43

that, I want to actually ask you about

8:47

this classification in this report, which I

8:49

found quite interesting. You divide shopping malls

8:51

into three grades, grade A, B, and

8:53

C. So, and grade A

8:55

malls are, of course, the best quality

8:57

and they are thriving as per the

8:59

numbers in your report. Grade B

9:02

have a little bit higher vacancy rate and the

9:04

grade C ones are the ones which have a

9:06

hard choice between either shutting down

9:08

or, you know, repurposing themselves

9:10

into something else and so on. So can

9:13

you talk a little bit about how do

9:15

you make this classification? Like how

9:17

do you decide what differentiates A and

9:19

B and C? The

9:22

grading that we've done is

9:25

based on a couple of parameters. First of

9:27

all, the size of a center. You

9:30

know, we don't call, first of

9:32

all, you stop using the word mall. We

9:34

call them shopping centers because

9:36

that's what is a globally acceptable term.

9:39

And when we're talking shopping centers, there

9:41

are multiple factors at play. First, the

9:43

site, we all know that only

9:46

if you have a certain size, you can

9:48

accommodate many of those

9:51

desired elements into a mall,

9:53

you know, like a theater,

9:55

like a big box retailer

9:57

or entertainment centers, et cetera.

10:00

So, if your mall is a certain

10:02

size then beyond, that the possibility of

10:04

getting all of it in place is

10:06

high. So, that's where

10:08

size assumes significance. Now,

10:10

a small mall can also

10:13

be a great attraction if

10:15

it is once again your focus is proper.

10:17

So, failure of success does not

10:20

depend on size and all to start

10:23

explaining what is the importance of size.

10:26

Now, another thing that is also playing

10:28

an extremely important role in grading is

10:31

are the facilities, like do they have

10:33

enough number of car parking there to

10:36

cater to the possible flow

10:39

of individual of

10:41

traffic etc. Also,

10:43

assume significance as the

10:45

infrastructure connect, you know, you

10:48

may have created a certain mall in a

10:50

location which is absolutely remotely

10:53

located etc. So, while lot of

10:55

those sectors are there but most

10:57

important of them is size and

11:00

for size I would say anything more than

11:02

500,000 square feet we place them in eight

11:04

grades and

11:06

anything which is less than 100,000 square

11:09

feet is what we place in C

11:11

grade and in between we have these.

11:14

So, the whole idea of grading is starting

11:16

with size but there are other factors which

11:18

are also going into it and

11:21

that's exactly what since your

11:23

question was also about the

11:26

survival of grade A malls.

11:29

I think that was also a question that you

11:31

had asked. Now, survival as

11:33

I said is not just completely

11:35

dependent on size alone, you know, because you can have

11:38

a smaller mall with better retailers there

11:40

and especially if it look at a

11:42

few of these luxury malls which are

11:44

absolutely super luxury high end focusing on

11:47

UHNI spend etc. These are not

11:49

really very large ones, you know, because you don't

11:51

need such a big facility

11:54

when you're focusing on a certain

11:56

specific market segment. So, the

11:58

idea remains that The

12:00

size is not just the reason for

12:03

a success or a failure of a model.

12:05

Would it be fair to say that the

12:07

super luxury malls would refer to targeting US&Es?

12:11

In general as a rule, they are located

12:13

in very high premium locations, not in remote

12:15

locations or out cuts, but in the center

12:17

of the city, is that the trend that

12:19

you've noticed? Absolutely.

12:21

Because the last thing you expect

12:24

is to get a consumer

12:27

of that pedigree

12:30

to travel long distance just

12:33

to reach to that mall. Look, one

12:35

thing is very fairly established that these

12:37

individuals who are in that category have

12:40

access to global markets. They are mostly global

12:42

citizens. They could be purchasing and consuming the

12:44

stuff from anywhere in the world. Why

12:47

would they still come to

12:49

their own city's luxury mall?

12:53

Main reason is got to be minimal

12:55

time spent on the road to reach

12:57

that destination. Hence, absolutely

12:59

right. Your perspective that you

13:01

spoke about, it has to be very

13:03

centrally located close to the domain, close

13:06

to the micro market where you will

13:08

find US&E in the close proximity. Right.

13:12

Now, going back to this phenomenon of

13:14

ghost malls with high vacancy rates, I

13:17

was just wondering the social side of

13:19

it. What has been

13:21

the impact or could be the impact of

13:24

job losses? And when they

13:26

shut down, there is also economic dislocation

13:28

of the smaller retailers who probably have

13:30

found a home in these smaller

13:32

malls. I mean, of course, size, as you said,

13:35

is not the only factor. But I did also

13:37

notice in my whatever anecdotal, this is that the

13:39

malls which are in the ghost

13:41

malls are of borderline cases are generally

13:43

the smaller malls. So in terms

13:45

of job losses and economic impact,

13:47

what are your thoughts or observations?

13:52

You see, ultimately, it's

13:54

about consumption. And

13:57

most of these smaller malls are.

14:00

essentially dependent on retailing or

14:02

consumption of produce alone, merchandise

14:05

alone. It is because as

14:07

I said, I think to answer your

14:09

previous question, I had explained that

14:11

you need a certain size to

14:13

throw in other attractions like family

14:16

entertainment center, theater, etc. And

14:18

hence, in this case, there are

14:20

at least if you're talking focusing on

14:22

smaller malls, smaller shopping centers, the

14:25

chances of relocation of

14:28

consumption is much higher than what I really

14:30

mean by that is that if

14:32

a retailer has put his or her

14:34

merchandise in a certain mall and

14:36

if the mall is not really doing well,

14:38

relocating that store to

14:40

some other maybe a high street

14:43

or another mall is always possible.

14:46

So, it does not really directly

14:48

result into loss of jobs as

14:50

far as the objective of

14:52

a mall itself is concerned. Of

14:54

course, the job losses will be there

14:56

from the management perspective, those who would

14:58

be using or maintaining

15:01

the facility, etc. They

15:03

will have a problem because they will

15:05

have to find another such facility to

15:07

find a job into. But

15:09

the job loss from the retail

15:12

sector itself will not be that

15:14

cumbersome or that I

15:16

would say difficult because people will find

15:18

their own stores if not in this

15:21

particular center in any other center. So,

15:23

it's not something which has a huge impact

15:26

on the job front. Jobs are many

15:28

more available all over. Right.

15:31

Of course, I mean, as you said also the

15:33

report points out that the retail sector as a whole

15:36

is not doing badly. It's just

15:38

this particular phenomenon of ghost shopping

15:40

malls and the trends related to

15:42

it which could lead to job

15:44

losses in case of closures and

15:46

so on. Now, one another important

15:49

or interesting category

15:51

which I found in the report

15:53

was this how you segregated everything

15:55

into tier one and tier two cities when

15:58

it comes to vacancy rates. and go

16:00

smalls and so on. So, are there any

16:02

particular trends that you have noticed with regard

16:04

to tier one and tier two cities because

16:06

they are different market, different kinds of demographics

16:08

there. What sort of in your

16:11

view are the important trends with regard to

16:13

these two? Well,

16:16

the most small that we are talking about,

16:20

if not all, majority of them are

16:22

in the tier one cities. Very, very

16:24

interesting to note that. And

16:26

the reason of that is simple, you

16:29

know, in typical tier two cities that

16:31

we are talking about, we have captured,

16:33

we have worked in 21 of those

16:35

tier two cities besides eight tier one

16:37

cities. What something

16:39

which is very interesting that emerges is that,

16:42

that in these tier two cities, the

16:44

number of centers, shopping centers or

16:47

malls are very less. The

16:49

densities are very, very, very low, which

16:52

means most of these cities will not have

16:54

more than two or three malls.

16:57

Now, out of those two or three malls, chances

16:59

of at least one or two malls surviving is

17:01

extremely high. Now, in stark contrast,

17:03

if you look at NCR alone, the

17:06

number of gross malls itself is 14.

17:10

And similarly, when you come to Mumbai, it is about

17:12

10 or 11. So, which

17:15

means that a huge number

17:17

of these centers are

17:19

in actually almost, I would say most

17:21

of them would be in tier one

17:23

cities, which is a big

17:25

differentiator. And simple aspect or simple reason

17:27

of that is, because there are

17:29

not many malls in tier two cities, the chances

17:32

of failure are also much lesser. And

17:35

typically in a tier two city, a

17:37

mall may not be comparable to a

17:40

great a mall of a tier

17:42

one. A tier two city may have

17:44

the best of the malls actually just

17:46

comparing or equivalent to a great

17:48

mall of a tier one city,

17:51

but would be doing a thriving business

17:54

for a mall of options. So, The

17:57

consumers Or the buyers of

17:59

that. Article appeared to city

18:01

don't have exposure to multiple options

18:04

leg you have an for Ncr

18:06

and eleven reasons. And

18:08

that is a big differentiate them. So. Since

18:11

you question was. What

18:13

are the most important? Said so busy

18:15

know them better was working to do this

18:17

is exactly I would want to put a

18:19

growth. And. The divorce laws are

18:21

mostly concentrated india in one city.

18:24

And not be are two. Very

18:26

different, really fascinating. and Youtube and what

18:28

it is like recounted in theater toward

18:30

one might expect him and about the

18:32

dramatic for the the smaller more as

18:34

ordered beard to seduce of the my

18:36

remote ghost was evident as you said

18:38

dog you to greatest joys and greater

18:41

competition in their tier one cities In

18:43

the metropolitan centers it is. I do

18:45

that to be that it was as

18:47

a deal one cities read other the

18:49

fight for survival is harder than under

18:51

under Gore. The smaller mods are in

18:53

danger of becoming boost once and so

18:55

on. Know or. One other things with

18:57

so fond on a big in the

18:59

forward of introduction to the report or

19:01

not in the context of making these

19:04

malls more wire balloon not just gold

19:06

coast mother but also integrates sea monsters

19:08

in do for as the ones which

19:10

are looking at a daily a high

19:12

vacancy rate I found it interesting or

19:14

to him which was used strategic recalibration.

19:18

I was just wondering what exactly does it break

19:20

down into when you talk about statistically calibers up

19:22

with i'm a mall or know that I find

19:24

that and I'm not really are getting. Rich

19:26

would fall under lots of

19:28

on a weekend.sights. Who.

19:30

Are too high a number of five because it's

19:33

not really working from is what kind of a

19:35

sad as it recalibration would I want to go.

19:39

People to bulletin I would want to

19:41

tell you that if you're already in

19:43

the coast in. The

19:46

chances of revival need that much

19:48

more difficult. You

19:51

know, and said something important when

19:53

you're talking about the calibration or

19:55

determination. of you talking about

19:58

you know and using on him of

20:00

life in an asset which

20:02

was perhaps doing good earlier and

20:05

for one reason or the other it

20:07

may not be doing as good now.

20:10

So what do you do? You know there

20:12

are examples in Mumbai we

20:15

have seen it, a certain mall was

20:18

very great mall for a long

20:20

time and suddenly a new mall

20:23

came up in the vicinity which

20:25

was much better planned, freshly

20:28

designed, better specifications and so on

20:30

and much larger. So here

20:33

it was a big challenge for the older

20:35

mall to redefine itself

20:38

or to rejuvenate itself.

20:41

So maybe a different concept like for example

20:43

in this case they

20:45

focused more on ladies wear or

20:47

ladies products etc and

20:49

you know the whole idea that

20:51

that's one segment which

20:54

does not completely depend on

20:56

weekend foot forward only because

20:58

ladies are there throughout the week and

21:01

that's a bit differentiator that this

21:03

particular mall identified rejuvenated and is

21:05

doing a great business. So both

21:08

are surviving. So the

21:10

concern that typically emerges is

21:12

that if you are performing

21:14

mall and maybe

21:17

a slightly older one and if you

21:20

have age maybe another 10-12

21:22

years later a new mall comes in the

21:24

closed vicinity in the same micro market and

21:27

then you have a huge challenge to keep

21:29

yourself you know relevant in

21:31

a market which is now catered to

21:33

by somebody else who is

21:35

better prepared, better designs, better experiences

21:38

etc. So what is it

21:40

again the USB that you are creating

21:42

is exactly what we are defining what

21:44

we are talking about that how do

21:47

you recalibrate yourself, rejuvenate yourself to

21:49

remain relevant in the market and

21:51

that is as I said that's possible

21:53

only in cases where you are still

21:55

in the big category like your vacancies

21:57

are into 50 and 20 percent range.

22:00

If you have already lost

22:02

the whole battle by,

22:04

you know, gradually moving closer to the

22:06

go small category, you have

22:09

already earned a bad name for yourself. So

22:12

then to bounce back and recalibrate is

22:14

going to be that much more difficult.

22:16

So to answer specifically and

22:18

very single statement is

22:21

that rejuvenation is required

22:23

when the experiences are

22:25

old to be recalibrated, the buyer

22:28

need to be brought back and

22:31

given a conviction that this is a fresh

22:33

facility, even if it is way older than

22:36

what you would have anticipated. So

22:38

that's what we're talking about when we spoke

22:40

of recalibration. Right. And

22:42

if it's already a go small, then basically we'll

22:45

demolish it and make it into something else. Is

22:47

that what you're saying? Unfortunately, most of

22:50

the cases go small may have

22:52

to find another use. Now

22:54

another use we'll be talking about,

22:57

demolition and reconstruction could be one

22:59

of them. There are

23:01

cases where a few malls have given

23:03

way to a different usage. Like

23:06

for example, there are at least

23:08

a few cases in Pune and

23:11

Bangalore where a certain

23:13

mall converted itself into an A-grade

23:15

office space. You know,

23:17

very, the closest that you

23:19

can think of to a mall is

23:22

to put it to office use. You

23:24

know, because you have huge air condition spaces,

23:26

you have huge number of good number of

23:28

parking, which is typically more than what an office

23:30

space could ever provide. So

23:32

a lot of those things are already there. So

23:35

the closest conversion is

23:37

to move on from detail

23:40

to office stock. Now,

23:43

another thing that is happening is many

23:45

of the warehousing players, the

23:48

big warehousing players are keen

23:50

to find such places

23:53

and convert them into in-city

23:55

warehousing. The concept I'm sure

23:57

many of us are aware of, a lot of

23:59

these e-commerce players

24:01

and many others are offering you

24:04

10 minutes delivery. For

24:06

a 10 minute delivery, they have to be close

24:08

to where you are and that's exactly what

24:10

the concept of in-city warehousing comes in.

24:13

And many of these malls are

24:15

sitting ducks, are best suited

24:17

to convert themselves into a

24:19

good warehousing space to cater

24:21

to center city requirements. And

24:24

mind you, the rentals of that

24:26

warehousing space would be better

24:29

than the rentals that they would have picked

24:31

up while they were running as a retail

24:33

center. And that's where the upside

24:35

is also good. So as I said, there

24:37

are a few of these uses, ultimate usage

24:39

that you can put that property to. If

24:42

not, then you have to go for a demolition

24:44

and a car reconstruction. One case

24:47

we can think of that has happened in

24:49

Mumbai Island City in a prime location, no

24:52

amount of alternate users would give you as much

24:54

of money as demolition and

24:56

construction of a super luxury high-end

24:58

residential building. That's exactly what is

25:00

happening there. So here another

25:03

interesting aspect is, and this

25:05

cannot be just

25:07

broadly said that if it's a go

25:09

small, even if it's a decently performing

25:11

mall, but the value of

25:13

land, the underlying asset would be so

25:16

high that if I convert this into

25:18

a residential building, I may make much

25:20

more money, tons of more money than

25:22

I may actually demolish a fairly running

25:25

mall as well to give way to

25:27

a residential tower. So

25:29

that's also a possibility. However,

25:31

since you're focusing on the

25:33

go small alone, I

25:36

would say first choice would be to check if

25:38

you can convert this into an office building or

25:41

warehousing, if not the improvement

25:43

possible. If the retail itself

25:45

is not possible, then these two as

25:47

a class come closest to not

25:51

demolishing it and

25:53

putting it to alternate use. If

25:55

these two are not working, then demolition reconstruction

25:57

is the only alternative. I

26:00

appreciate your out leaving the various options fara.

26:02

Bottom line and I know full well on

26:04

goes on the thank you for that as

26:07

yes one last question before eligible so i'm

26:09

an to sort of take a step back

26:11

and as as investors that to see the

26:13

commercials the only real estate in a it

26:16

continues to be aggressively marketed to to to

26:18

to my knowledge at least the middle and

26:20

upper middle class is all over the country

26:22

as an attractive investment option of this is

26:25

going by e o by their whatever but

26:27

at the same time we also as but

26:29

it's report. Them to have fairly high vacancy

26:31

rates in the great be a great see

26:34

malls and on has also another they seem

26:36

point of it as a ghost more phenomena

26:38

so I see a contradiction here on one

26:40

and everybody's osteen listed on com isolated seated

26:42

of the future blah blah blah but the

26:45

same them that are also these idiots problems

26:47

in overtime to be i just because of

26:49

lack of of the of abuse of of

26:51

have more space shopping center space as you

26:53

put it so how does one on to

26:56

understand and little understand this contradicts and you.

27:00

Will need talk about ah.

27:02

Commotion commercial spaces at the

27:05

high Sylvanus. a blast. We

27:07

do both officers as well as

27:09

he did his into that but

27:12

then I'm focusing on also stop

27:14

a known. As you say,

27:16

it also stops. I've done any the office

27:18

as. An. Asset class as much in demand.

27:21

So. If I have an option too tight.

27:23

Knit to maximize even when he's much in

27:25

demand. Even when so many people are sort

27:27

of gotten used to work from home, they

27:29

fighting for what for, Move raised in and

27:32

he pleases. You know that's exactly the

27:34

point I'm trying to drive across that. In.

27:36

Spite of all those local

27:39

home concerns last year vs

27:41

Scene but and Simpson off

27:44

office stock. Almost.

27:46

Speaking out. A den of

27:48

the Bedouin, it was legal. We live in. So.

27:51

Hit It is like all that is happening.

27:54

Lot of new demands are

27:56

emerging. And easy

27:58

money coming from. lot of, I

28:01

won't say completely new sectors, but

28:04

modern sectors to start with, like

28:06

for example, global competency center, GCCs that

28:08

you're talking about have taken huge

28:10

spaces in India. These are

28:12

the captive research centers of

28:15

large organizations

28:18

all over the world. This

28:20

is not an outsourcing, this is more of insourcing,

28:22

which is what is the new word. Second

28:25

too is India facing consumption, which

28:27

means that the office talks created

28:29

for the growing economy of India

28:31

itself. So India facing

28:34

businesses and GCCs have taken huge

28:36

spaces in recent times and

28:39

they shall, this expansion shall continue

28:41

because as the Indian economy

28:43

is growing from a 3 trillion to 4

28:45

to 5 to 10, etc., huge

28:48

consumption in world also will be

28:50

happening. Indians will be huge, will

28:52

be consuming a lot of products and

28:55

services as well as, as

28:57

I said, the high-end research work that are happening

28:59

in India have also been growing

29:01

at a great pace. So

29:03

overall office space requirement in

29:05

India has been growing unabashedly

29:08

and this number, as I said, has already reached the

29:11

historic best. So even if I

29:13

assume that in times to come to

29:15

keep up with the growth and the

29:17

macroeconomic perspective, the Indian GDP

29:19

growing at the rate that it is growing at

29:21

7, 8, 9%, I would

29:24

continue to generate new demand

29:26

for offices and that

29:28

once again to repeat NVI trade

29:30

in spite of work from home

29:32

culture. So the concerns are

29:35

in place, but the growth is fabulous and

29:37

if that work from home culture is also

29:39

reducing, which is what it is,

29:41

gradually shrinking, then we are

29:43

completely back in office without any worry

29:46

about or the shadows of

29:48

pandemic still casting on the overall requirement.

29:50

So we are back in business as

29:52

far as office is concerned. Right.

29:55

Thank you so much for that Gula. I

29:57

mean, I think going with what you just

29:59

described, I think many of these go small. I

30:01

think the option for them is

30:03

fairly clear. If the retail things are

30:05

not working for you, please convert yourself

30:07

into office space. Because as you said,

30:09

that seems to be a peaking. Thank

30:11

you so much once again for coming

30:13

on board with this show and sharing

30:15

your sharp insights and observations on

30:18

India's retail sector. Absolute pleasure talking to you,

30:20

Glam. Thank you so much. Thank you so

30:22

much. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure sharing

30:24

our thoughts and ideas with you as well. Thanks

30:26

a lot for inviting me on this platform.

30:28

Take care. Thank you.

30:33

In Focus will be back soon with

30:35

analysis of the biggest news issues. In

30:38

the meantime, you can find our podcast

30:40

on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher

30:43

and other platforms. Just

30:45

search for In Focus by the

30:48

Hindus. We'll see you soon.