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course we'd love to hear your comments and

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we love to hear your thoughts on cases

0:29

we should cover. As you know it's not

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going to be all Murdoch all the time

0:33

doing cases throughout the South East. We've done

0:36

a few of those and we're working on

0:38

some. other ones are. Getting lots

0:40

of feedback and ideas, Yes,

0:42

loss of I'd. Tap. Think and

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cases that people like us to cover say

0:47

we are looking into than we have not

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gotten back to you. Please send us reminder

0:51

because we're getting so many. We will

0:54

there be on it. Was looking to have

0:56

guessed that to know about the case, whether

0:58

be turned ease former law enforcement et cetera.

1:00

So what else do you have for a

1:03

seat in. What we got some

1:05

feedback from or last episode were

1:07

recovered: Alec Murdoch's ah. Federal.

1:09

Financial Crime Sentencing

1:11

and. Someone. Has

1:14

told me they'd do not believe that Alec

1:16

Murdoch is going to be eligible for the

1:18

first step act. He probably will only qualify

1:21

for. The. Fifty two days a year

1:23

of that time that you get basically as

1:25

long as you just don't. Burn. The

1:27

downtown. Ah, but the first step act.

1:29

You have to have a criminal history

1:31

and a category zero. And. Right

1:34

now at Murdoch has a for. Also.

1:37

Another thing that would preclude you

1:39

from participating in this ah first

1:41

step act would be. Creating.

1:44

Substantial financial harm. To.

1:47

People when that happened. Which has

1:49

happened Sam Anyway, just some feedback

1:51

on apps. And hundreds be Relic Murdoch. That's where

1:53

we have our guess today because I like as you know,

1:55

failed the. Polygraph. The Feds gave

1:57

him about the money. Crimes

2:00

and so we've got a guest to

2:03

is written a book about the history

2:05

of the polygraph and light a doctor.

2:08

Let's. Bring our guests are met

2:10

cut white lie. He is

2:12

writer and editor for Wired

2:14

Ah Books Magazines features. Podcast

2:17

videos you see is a Ted Talks

2:19

you can find this on you tube.

2:22

Ah, and the book that we're talking about

2:24

the day that I. Got. On

2:27

Friday and blew through the weekend as

2:29

was so intriguing. A tremors in the

2:31

blood. Death. Murder. Of session and the

2:33

birth of a lie detector or thanks for joining

2:35

us are met appreciate it, thanks you guys, thank

2:37

you for having. I would it

2:40

does it. Start off with the basics I

2:42

said how did she the com interested in

2:44

this app Polygraph subject. Though

2:46

you like the consider started out with an

2:48

interesting true crime or was books in making

2:51

a murderer? I don't you remember that out

2:53

and in a eight? And

2:56

that case, ah up in the North of

2:58

America. And in the second season of that

3:00

size, the even every day threesome a good

3:03

upbringing, fingerprints and passed. Away

3:05

he gave them the under a brain

3:07

scan. Websites designs on devices tell whether

3:09

or not he's lying about the matter

3:12

that he allegedly committed and. I.

3:14

Am I? backgrounds in psychology and

3:16

neuroscience and watching this thing play now

3:19

on screen hours like this doesn't make

3:21

any sense. This is on be true.

3:23

I'm. So I did some

3:26

digging and I ended up writing a

3:28

story for the Guardian about the kind

3:30

of new signs of like the Texans.

3:32

Another was recession. That story was found

3:34

with a lot of parallels between the

3:36

the science of live Saxon and I

3:38

say science and sort of invest com

3:40

his hands and that kind of history

3:42

of science will see the signs that

3:44

was links the original light is how

3:46

to the polygraph machines and. So

3:49

I kind of went down this rabbit hole

3:51

and I spent the next couple years. Basically,

3:54

taking into the history of the polygraph

3:56

finding what he problems with that and

3:58

then okay been incredible some sequence that

4:00

were like woven into to

4:03

the history of this machine and this

4:05

machine that's had a massive influence on the justice system

4:07

and continues to have a massive influence on the justice

4:09

system particularly in the States. And I

4:11

will tell you people if you're true crime fans

4:14

this has many

4:16

stories that he covers in in depth

4:18

about situation you know

4:20

crimes that were committed or maybe

4:23

not committed by the people that were the

4:25

light attacker was used against and so you'll

4:27

enjoy it even if it's not from the

4:29

historical perspective of how it all came together

4:31

but a lie detector it's over a

4:34

hundred years old and the

4:36

two main people that started it was police

4:38

chief Gus Vollman got together with a rookie

4:40

officer John Larson the

4:42

eventually Leonard Keeler Larson was

4:45

a cop with a PhD and explain

4:49

how the the Valmer

4:51

the police chief and John

4:53

Larson got together and their

4:55

basic idea of what

4:57

they were going to come up with which would

5:00

be called the polygraph. Yeah

5:03

so basically to take you

5:05

back to the time the polygraph was invented right so policing

5:07

in the kind of 1890s early 20th

5:10

century was a very unscientific

5:12

profession I can put it that way so it

5:14

was a lot of kind of famine

5:17

ties and people kind of

5:20

getting you know confessions beaten out of them

5:22

with sticks and fists and Vollmer

5:25

was a veteran

5:27

of the Spanish American war and he wanted to

5:30

make policing a bit more humane and he wanted

5:32

to also make it a bit more scientific he

5:34

was based in Berkeley California and

5:37

the resource they had available to him being in Berkeley

5:39

was a lot of kind of smart young college graduates

5:41

and he was basically the person who decided to kind

5:43

of try and bring those sorts of people into policing

5:46

and then to try and bring in new

5:48

technologies to help solve crime so you've got

5:50

things like fingerprinting people and things like radios

5:52

so they'll communicate people in maps of crime

5:54

so that you can identify hot spots and

5:58

then one of the other things he bought in was Yeah,

6:01

he brought in it's college cop A because

6:03

it is this Phd student or John Larson.

6:06

And. He was. A criminologist, he

6:08

wanted to try and prevent crimes for

6:10

happened and together they can tablets idea

6:12

to an icicle, see what they could

6:15

use blood pressure to tell when? come

6:17

on the line. That was the sort

6:19

of genius seed that became the polygraph

6:21

machines. Reading. Some of

6:23

your articles at this situation at

6:25

Berkeley's. Itself as like

6:28

it might be a terrible time to be

6:30

a student there been is it really? use

6:32

this solid grasp on the scenes to uncover

6:34

lots of different crimes as they get started

6:37

out with some stolen jaw race. Can you

6:39

tell us a bit about that? Yeah.

6:42

I mean to be honest like I studied

6:44

psychology and even today if you're a psychologist

6:46

or just like student at undergraduate you will

6:49

get experimented on. This is gonna put a

6:51

sign of adolescents. And

6:54

but yes, The.

6:56

Boston bomber built this machines that was kind

6:58

of is very good. I'm ramshackle, a machine

7:01

someone at Imitated at the time described it

7:03

so the mix was going. an alarm clock

7:05

on a wireless. Maybe I will sort of,

7:08

but press a coffin. it looks very. Ugly.

7:10

I'm betting where they built this machine and

7:12

yeah one the first isn't the used on

7:15

with this case of a series of tests

7:17

or women's dormant in bad it invested and.

7:21

It takes me a bunch of the the women

7:23

and stay in a storm had that think they're

7:25

missing and the teach the cool with actions. As

7:29

I'm see the investigating officer sort of I

7:31

think grew tired of interviewing. Dozens

7:33

of of women and can solve the case over

7:36

the last. Animals like you deal with it with

7:38

this machine. you've got. And

7:40

that was the best as the polygraph was used

7:42

on an oxy. The

7:45

first person that the Uk government was that

7:47

one could margaret Taylor or he was one

7:49

of the victims of this crimes I guess

7:51

is as is normal empties into the or

7:54

me sort of. The. First media was

7:56

in see that the victims time. Get.

7:58

married on schedule inquiries And

8:01

this is a bit of a side note, but Larson

8:03

actually then ended up eventually marrying this woman. So

8:05

that's sort of an early sign that maybe in a

8:08

polygraph exam, the sort of power imbalance is

8:10

not quite what it should be. And he

8:12

brought her back in and asked her if he loved

8:14

her. She loved him. And she

8:16

actually lied. According to that test, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's quite

8:18

an interesting story actually.

8:22

And it's sort of got this sort

8:24

of, almost like rom-com style meet

8:26

cute sort of thing of him strapping her up

8:28

a lie detector and saying, you know, do you

8:30

love me and all this kind of stuff. But

8:34

anyway, so they thought that they'd

8:37

use the machine to kind of solve this crime. And

8:39

they pinned the crime on a

8:41

woman called Helen Graham. And

8:43

she confessed and all seemed good. And then a few

8:46

months later, she sort of tried to recount her confession.

8:49

So even back then, there were

8:51

these problems beginning to emerge, even with the first

8:53

few cases lie detector was actually used on. And

8:56

there's two big cases that you

8:59

go into great detail and very interesting

9:01

detail that show both

9:03

sides of the polygraph in a way. One

9:06

of them, I guess the combination

9:08

kind of broke some of the people that

9:10

were involved with the beginning of

9:12

the polygraph. One of those cases was

9:14

Henry Wilkins in 1922. So it's only like

9:16

a year after the invention

9:19

of it. And I know

9:21

that the cases, you go

9:23

like I said, you cover it amazingly. Give

9:25

us a synopsis of that and why that

9:28

became a centerpiece of your story.

9:31

Yeah, so you're

9:33

right. So it's May 1922 at

9:35

San Francisco and Henry Wilkins

9:38

is the mechanic. He's

9:40

like a German immigrant and he's driving back from

9:42

a camping trip with his family. He's

9:45

got his wife in a car and his two kids

9:47

and they get pulled over by bandits

9:49

basically and kind of held up at

9:51

the roadside and in

9:53

the kind of struggle, his wife gets shot. And,

9:57

you know, he rushed to the hospital, but she. And

10:01

when the police come, he kind of says, you know, there

10:03

was these three guys and they held us up. And then,

10:05

you know, when they tried to grab her jewelry, I reached

10:07

my own gun and then they tried to shoot me and

10:09

she jumped across and saved me, but she got shot. So

10:11

that was the kind of story that they told the police.

10:14

Anyway, it kind of, over

10:16

the next few weeks and months, that story

10:18

sort of unravels. And it turns out that

10:21

maybe Henry Wilkins was actually involved in his

10:23

own wife's death. So, you know, he,

10:25

the police identified two suspects and in a police

10:28

lineup, he claimed that he never met the

10:30

suspect and then it transpires later in the

10:32

week that actually used to work with

10:34

one of them. And then when they follow him

10:36

after a meeting, they see him meeting these suspects

10:38

or one of their brothers. So it's all very,

10:40

it starts to not look very good for Henry.

10:42

And that's when the polygraph gets called

10:45

in. And the

10:47

reason that I chose to focus on this case is,

10:49

well, for a couple of reasons. First, because it's a

10:51

bonkers case. Like I wouldn't, I don't want to get

10:53

into all the twists and turns of it, because we'll

10:55

be here all day, but, you know, there's gun fights

10:58

and, you know, love triangles

11:00

and all sorts of mad stuff going

11:02

on. And then the

11:05

second reason was that this was the first, it

11:08

was one of the first times the polygraph had been used in the

11:10

murder case. And it was one of the first significant

11:12

cases where the polygraph sort of failed, I think. So

11:14

it would have been used in a couple of murder

11:16

cases up until this point and it sort of got,

11:19

you know, the right answer and addresses come as an

11:21

inlet. What was found on

11:23

the polygraph kind of matched up with what

11:25

the jury found and what the police had

11:27

found. Whereas with here, what happened was

11:29

that the evidence seemed to point

11:31

overwhelmingly in terms of like Henry being

11:34

guilty, but the polygraph actually found him innocent and,

11:36

you know, he walked free and though

11:38

he did eventually go to trial, he was found innocent.

11:42

For John Lawton, that was a real sort of

11:44

blow and it really like changed the way that he

11:47

thought about this machine he'd invented. He started to think

11:49

of it as sort of a Frankenstein monster that he'd

11:51

unleashed on the world. He spent

11:53

basically the rest of his life trying to undo the

11:56

damage, trying to put this machine back in the

11:58

box that he'd inadvertently released. it from? I

12:01

think they're called counter measures where people

12:03

try to find ways to beat the

12:05

polygraph test and it appears as if

12:08

maybe in this case he did. What

12:10

are those and what are some of the

12:12

ways that people have tried to beat polygraph

12:15

tests? Yeah, the way

12:17

a polygraph works is it looks for a

12:19

difference between your response to control questions and

12:21

your response to target questions. So a control

12:23

question might be, is your name

12:25

Henry? And a target question might be,

12:28

did you kill her? Right, so

12:31

the theory that it works on is that if you're asked

12:33

the question about the crime and you did the crime then

12:35

your pulse will go up, your blood pressure will go up

12:37

and those changes will be measurable and you'll be able to

12:40

spot them on the chart. So that's

12:43

the theory. So counter measures try and mess

12:45

with that. So counter measures might try and

12:47

for instance exaggerate your response to the control

12:49

questions so that when the target questions come

12:52

around the difference isn't as big. So you

12:54

can do that by clenching

12:56

your muscles. So if you like clench your butt

12:59

while you're being asked a control

13:03

question then don't do that. When you get asked

13:05

a target question then the responses will look the

13:07

same. So that's one thing you can, people

13:10

have tried kind of like pinching themselves or putting a

13:12

pin in their shoe and then stepping on it when

13:14

they get asked these control questions. So anything

13:16

that's going to amp up your physical response

13:19

to the control questions so that when you get

13:21

asked the target questions the difference between two responses

13:23

in this bit can be used as a counter

13:25

measure. Let's talk about

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15:38

job in telling the story of the

15:40

Wilkins case and the other big one

15:42

that you had a lot of focus

15:44

on was one that really tore Larson

15:46

apart later in life and

15:48

that was the

15:50

case of Rappaport.

15:55

That was like the opposite of the other

15:57

one where Henry Wilkins was guilty and Rappaport

16:00

Or probably was innocent,

16:02

explain that case in a nutshell. Yeah, and it's

16:04

not even, I'm not even sure. To be honest,

16:06

I'm not sure whether he was innocent or not.

16:08

So the second case, this is in

16:10

Chicago, so it's 10,

16:12

11 years later, kind of mid 1930s

16:15

in Chicago. And

16:17

Joe Rappaport is, he gets

16:20

basically accused of killing

16:22

this guy called Max Dent. So Max Dent

16:25

was sort of a drug pusher and sort

16:27

of low level police informant, basically. And then

16:29

Joe Rappaport gets accused of

16:31

killing him because the

16:35

motive was supposedly that Max Dent who was about

16:37

to testify against him. And

16:40

he goes to trial, gets found guilty, gets given

16:43

the death penalty. And

16:46

at this point, by this point, Leonard Keeler,

16:49

who we've not talked about yet, so Leonard

16:51

Keeler was sort of John Larson's protege. And

16:54

he was this kind of high school kid when they

16:56

met. And he's the one who really was responsible for

16:58

popularizing the lie detector and spreading it across America. He

17:00

was trying to make some money off of it. Yeah,

17:03

so he was the one who was kind of trying

17:05

to turn it into a commercial project, I guess, trying

17:07

to make money out of it effectively. Whereas Larson was

17:09

more about the pure science. Keeler was the showman, the

17:11

salesman. And

17:14

so by the mid 1930s, Keeler was living

17:16

in Chicago. Larson had been in Chicago, but

17:18

then had to leave in disgrace for a

17:21

bunch of slightly lurid reasons, but

17:23

I get into it in the book. And

17:27

basically what happened was that Matt Perport was

17:30

on death row. And the governor

17:32

of Illinois, Henry Horner, kept giving

17:34

him stays of execution. He

17:36

was being pressurized by Matt Perport's family and

17:39

the community to not execute him. So he

17:41

kept giving him stays of execution. After I

17:43

think three or four of these, he eventually

17:45

said, right, okay, if this guy can pass

17:47

the lie detector test that says he's innocent,

17:50

I'll commute the sentence, I'll let him live. So

17:54

Keeler kind of goes on to the

17:56

jail with the polygraph equipment, starts Matt Perport in.

18:00

fails a test and you know,

18:02

executed shortly afterwards. And the

18:04

challenge here is not so much whether or not

18:06

he was guilty. It's more like, you

18:09

know, he, he was

18:12

found, you know, this machine, this unreliable machine

18:14

was basically used to decide whether or not

18:16

a man lived or died. And that is

18:19

like hugely problematic. And yeah, for Larson, as

18:21

he said, it was sort of didn't kill

18:23

her, like what he did the test, he

18:26

was not even doing it the way you

18:29

were supposed to do it. He

18:31

was breaking all the rules. You're right. He

18:33

was breaking all the rules. He, if

18:35

you look at, I think the media kind

18:37

of does things a bit of a disservice. And I understand why

18:39

because if you actually were to

18:42

sit and watch a lie detector test being done in

18:44

real time, the way it should be done, it's

18:46

very, very boring and very, very long, because you're

18:48

meant to ask each question several

18:51

times, you're meant to wait like a minute

18:53

between each question to let the bodily

18:55

response settle down and takes ages. This is

18:58

like a four or five, six hour thing,

19:00

like a real marathon. Whereas obviously,

19:02

on TV, it's sort of like, you know,

19:04

people get strapped in and then, you know, 10 minutes later,

19:06

they're you know, they marched out

19:09

again, and with a piece of

19:11

paper saying, you know, they were

19:13

lying, whatever. And above all, it's meant

19:15

to be in a sort of, you know, neutral setting.

19:17

And you know, death row is not a neutral setting.

19:19

And while that report was being

19:22

put on the machine, you know, the lights

19:25

and the cell that he was in was flickering because they were

19:27

testing the electric chair. That

19:30

sounds like a calm environment. Yeah, really. You just

19:33

mentioned the media. And, you know, we see

19:35

these true crime TV shows

19:37

law and order and someone gets a

19:39

lie detector test and they fail. And

19:41

we also see headlines here

19:44

in the states that someone, you know,

19:46

passed or failed a polygraph test. And

19:48

you kind of get this assumption

19:52

of guilt or innocence based on whether

19:54

someone has passed this, but the reliability

19:56

is not as black

19:58

and white as what you're led to believe

20:01

in the media. Yeah that's right and

20:03

if you look at kind of the scientific work that's been done

20:05

on the accuracy of the larger sector it can be as low

20:07

as you know 40% sometimes you know it

20:09

ranges between 40% and 70% it varies wildly

20:11

depending on who's acting the

20:15

test and it's presented as this sort of

20:17

scientific machine that's

20:19

giving you like unbiased results but really it's a

20:21

lot of it's about interpretation a lot of it's

20:23

about who's doing a test who's being tested there's

20:26

a huge amount of bias in

20:28

the process as well ultimately it's

20:30

it's akin to you know reading tea

20:32

leaves or you know doing a palm

20:34

reading or something like that right like

20:36

it's operating at

20:38

that level and I

20:41

have to be quite careful when I talk about this because

20:43

obviously like it can be useful and it

20:46

can be you know it has obviously helped

20:48

you know bring people to justice but you

20:52

know I think when it is useful it's often as a sort of like

20:56

psychological prop in a way it's sort of

20:58

the illusion of science right

21:00

um someone I speak to about this an

21:03

academic cause it's sort of zombie forensics right

21:05

this you know it can't have

21:07

security theater airports it's there to make

21:10

the subject feel like they're under interrogation by a

21:12

machine that's going to wrap them out if they

21:14

don't tell the truth. Well as

21:16

a matter of fact you talk about I don't know if

21:18

a Chicago police or somebody was using like a copier or

21:21

something right and just telling the criminal to put the hand

21:23

in the copier and it would shoot out if they were

21:25

telling the truth. Yeah that's

21:27

right so that's actually in um uh

21:29

David Simon's book uh his non-fiction book and then

21:32

he he recreates that scene in The Wire uh

21:35

so yeah I think originally it was

21:37

in Detroit and then the Wire it's in Baltimore but

21:39

yeah they used to get the suspects to put their

21:41

hand on a Xerox machine and then they

21:44

would just get the machine to print out a

21:46

piece of paper with he's lying written on it

21:48

and uh that would be enough to sort of

21:50

you know convince them that they just had to tell

21:52

the truth it's sort of about the psychological pressure that

21:54

the machine or even the idea of a mission can

21:56

put on people. Well the guys who invented it

21:58

you know were you know ended up being against it

22:01

and they were even called it, I believe, a

22:03

psychological form of torture, which they were

22:05

hoping to get away from by having

22:07

this device. And

22:09

yet it's been 100 years of

22:11

this and it's basically, is it

22:13

basically still the same thing it's measuring

22:16

that it was in 1921? Essentially, yes.

22:19

So the only difference is that back then

22:21

you would have had physical

22:23

pens, all the equipment, the blood pressure

22:25

cuff and the thing that cables

22:27

and wrap around your chest would be connected to

22:30

physical pens and your movement would translate into the

22:32

movement of the pens. Whereas

22:34

now it's more likely to be connected to a

22:36

computer and the lines will be not on a

22:38

piece of paper, but on a chart. And

22:42

everything else is basically the same. They've

22:44

added kind of a sweat response that sometimes you'll

22:46

see on TV, like people will have something attached

22:48

to their finger that's measuring their galvanic sweat response.

22:51

So that's just another kind of weight,

22:53

another source of information. Even

22:56

now, a lot of the interpretation is still sort

22:58

of done by eye, by feel, you know, there's

23:00

no sort of objective way

23:02

of doing it. There were efforts to

23:04

create objective, you know, unbiased polygraph scoring

23:07

algorithms in the 80s, but polygraph examiners

23:09

didn't really want them. And I

23:11

think they kind of, you know, that's the kind of

23:13

tacit admission that what they do is more art and

23:16

science, right? It's more about interrogation

23:19

and personal,

23:21

interpersonal skills, I

23:23

guess, than it is about the

23:26

science of the machine. One

23:28

thing that polygraphs can be used for is

23:31

as an investigative technique. But

23:34

we often see these as part

23:36

of deals, if you're going to make a

23:38

deal with the federal government or that sort of thing,

23:40

it's a requirement to take and pass a polygraph test.

23:43

How do you see these

23:46

two different types of ways of

23:48

using a polygraph important?

23:51

Yeah, so there's something

23:53

similar that's been happening in the UK recently

23:55

as well, where it's been increasingly used to

23:57

assess people who are on probation.

24:02

A terrible offensive game used. And.

24:06

Like I think. That. It.

24:10

Can be useful in my case by think it

24:12

needs to be used with the eyes open about

24:14

me. Neither will have let me ask me. saw

24:16

this. Ad see that I think

24:18

in the case that are you guys have

24:20

been falling on his podcast. I

24:22

don't mind it being used in that scenario

24:25

because it's fairly low stakes in the sense

24:27

that you know the guys already in prison

24:29

and this is about when I was testing

24:31

whether or not. It's it's about

24:33

trying to extract more information from him, right?

24:35

And you know if you call that I've

24:38

mentioned from Mm. Okay, mistakes

24:40

a relatively low intended like no one's

24:42

going to die as a result or

24:44

or that nothing was. The problem

24:46

I have with is that you know if you

24:49

put too much weight on the school with and

24:51

you end up playing it was you people walk

24:53

free than that can lead to real really severe

24:55

consequences. of as a serial killer in their the

24:58

Pacific Northwest a man. I think

25:00

the seventies and eighties early nineties fc could

25:02

carry Ridgeway and the Green River. killer. he

25:04

was and. He.

25:08

Killed a bunch of women was burrow

25:10

animals polygraph test and possibly broadcast would

25:12

lead guy and went on to like

25:15

Kill Lies multi equal and that's when

25:17

problematic when the machine. As

25:19

the wrong with our and because it's a machine and

25:22

we kind of been I believe in science and we

25:24

trust trust machine modem interests. Are.

25:26

ourselves that it's sorta leads to

25:28

the wrong outcomes. Think. The

25:30

number some around two hundred. People.

25:32

That we know of unjustly

25:35

imprisoned. In. I think just

25:37

England alone due to feel polygraph system is

25:39

does numbers close. Yeah.

25:42

So that setting up statistics United States

25:44

has a bar and yeah there is.

25:46

there are run. the

25:48

there were loads a taste of you look at

25:51

and the innocence project and think that out there

25:53

are other than several different types of the people

25:55

being coerced into confessing on polygraphs in and assets

25:57

handle a traveling at it was like treat them

26:00

And like you say, that those kind of, it's

26:03

really hard to tell whether someone's pulse is

26:05

racing because they're lying or because they're nervous,

26:07

right? You know, if you're afraid

26:09

of being wrongly accused, you

26:12

know, how are you supposed to determine whether someone's,

26:14

someone's stressed because they're afraid of being wrongly accused

26:16

or because they're afraid of being found

26:19

out, right? It's really, really difficult for a polygraph

26:21

machine to figure that out. Just a person that

26:23

sweats a lot has a problem with the... Yeah,

26:26

exactly. Or someone who's nervous for other

26:28

reasons, right? You know, and I think

26:31

being interrogated about a murder is

26:33

probably a pretty nervous situation to be in, regardless of

26:35

whether you do it or not. Do

26:37

polygraph examiners go through any

26:40

sort of training? Is there any sort of standard? Because

26:42

it seems to me that there could be some

26:45

polygraph examiners who are

26:47

better than others. Yeah, so there is an

26:50

organization called the American Polygraph Association. However,

26:52

it was not compulsory. So,

26:55

you know, there's nothing to stop you from going

26:58

out, buying a polygraph, going

27:00

to test people. You

27:03

can become a polygraph examiner, a licensed polygraph

27:05

examiner. I think it takes 12 weeks,

27:09

I think the course is. Oh, that's it? Yeah,

27:12

it's really, really quite straightforward. And

27:15

you know, you can

27:18

basically go from, you

27:20

know, being someone with no interrogation experience for

27:22

being a licensed, qualified polygraph

27:24

examiner in less than a year. Oh,

27:27

wow. It just blows my mind that all

27:30

these studies and all these

27:33

facts show that it's pseudoscience. And

27:35

I wonder if the people who tout it really

27:37

believe it, or do they have some

27:40

sort of other motive? I mean,

27:42

do they really convince themselves that they

27:44

know a liar? Probably

27:47

two things happening. I think there's probably

27:50

at the coalface. I think people probably do believe

27:52

that it works. And you

27:55

Know, I Think they probably do believe that they're getting the right

27:57

results. And I Think, to be honest, like a lot of the

27:59

time, they're probably. The ours is the problem is that

28:01

the like edge takes it's quite nice. You

28:04

know if you're going to use technology to you

28:06

in a central command staff or hundred films that

28:08

are still alive did you really really need to

28:10

be sure that it's like and of saturates certain

28:12

at cornerback and and I think the other reason

28:14

that proliferated the case. It's convenient, right?

28:16

As much more convenient for police

28:18

departments. He. Gets. And

28:21

such an awesome one on a polygraph machines. Than.

28:24

A T Tyrants Trial. Much more

28:26

expensive the table child as to unite said them in

28:28

a room with it. Is amref for two

28:30

hours and come out of the compassion. Write. The

28:34

book is fantastic. Tremors in the Blood, murder, obsession

28:36

and the Birth of the Lie Detector. I'm good

28:38

thank you very much for as been a time

28:40

with as really appreciate. It. Thank.

28:42

You I think there must have me And to. Ah,

28:45

Writer we are rap and this one

28:47

up please rate and share the episodes

28:49

of the youtube just subscribed to the

28:51

youtube channel should say and or check

28:54

out. The. Facebook page of Impact

28:56

of Influence A Good Scenery good am dead

28:58

when we hook you up to a lie

29:00

detector test is and question. Since I honestly

29:02

think that I would sell a lie

29:04

detector test and not, I think I

29:07

could pass that. That. Questions

29:09

like. In a. D.

29:11

Name or and you know yes and

29:14

what's your name. We in a d

29:16

like dogs that sort of thing. I

29:18

think that a pass that you automatically

29:20

as someone are you guilty as. Telling.

29:23

Your neighbor. To. Saying

29:25

that makes my heart. Race will I? I

29:27

think of in a smaller case when I

29:29

was married. Are you married and you walk

29:31

in rights? and they like. See.

29:33

Like where you been. Sometimes you feel like I'm

29:35

a guilty for a second. Yeah. right?

29:38

Exactly. I didn't do anything or in anywhere you

29:40

like what was I did I said i want

29:42

to go to the airport go to the Us

29:44

the metal detector Sometimes I like. That.

29:46

I accidently hide something in my say

29:48

some success with a mutt are over

29:50

there you go. Ah we villa talk

29:53

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that wouldn't the houses and killed

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