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0:31

It's hard not to add a

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side of hot, crispy hash browns

0:35

to your favorite McDonald's breakfast. It's

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even harder not to eat said

0:41

hash browns before you get

0:43

home. Hello

0:47

and welcome to iWay with Jameela Jamil, our podcast

0:49

against shame. I'm going to make this brief because

0:51

I like everyone else have had a chest infection

0:54

for what feels like about 400,000 years. And

0:57

it's just making my voice too sexy, as you

0:59

can hear. And I just don't think that's fair

1:01

for other podcasters out there. So, you know, I

1:04

love to be fair. Okay, my guest

1:06

this week is Annie Samblad and she

1:08

is known as the human lie detector,

1:11

which I think is one of the coolest

1:13

and most interesting and scary job titles I've

1:15

ever heard of. She has

1:18

spent her life learning every single micro

1:20

expression. I'm talking about the ones that

1:22

happen within 1 25th of a second.

1:26

She can spot all of them and

1:28

know if someone is bullshitting her. She

1:31

can read so much about every emotion someone's

1:33

having just by the tiny little expressions in

1:35

their face, the tiny curls of their lip

1:37

or the tiny smile that they may have.

1:40

Things that most of us don't even know to look out for.

1:43

But once you see it, you can't unsee it. She

1:46

had, you know, I think a difficult childhood, I would

1:48

say, which she goes into a little bit in

1:50

this episode. And it made her want

1:52

to grow up and make sure that, you know, she

1:54

was lied to a lot. She wants to make sure

1:56

no one else has ever lied to again. And so

1:58

she's made it her life's work. to train

2:01

and teach huge companies how to spot

2:03

bullshit so that when they're in negotiations,

2:05

like fake negotiations, they can figure out

2:07

the integrity of the person they're going

2:09

into business with and she also helped

2:11

people when it comes to deciphering in

2:13

love and relationships. She has a new

2:15

book out, it's called Diary of a

2:17

Human Lie Detects, facial expressions in love,

2:19

lust and lies. It was recently released

2:21

and people are loving this book. I

2:23

am loving this book. It is fascinating

2:25

and you should definitely read it but

2:27

in this episode we just give you

2:29

a kind of taste of what

2:31

it is that she's talking about, why

2:34

she has chosen this subject as her

2:36

life's work and why it's

2:38

so important for our mental health to be able

2:40

to feel safe when we know that we are

2:42

not being ghastly all the time. It's

2:45

empowering, it feels like having my agency back

2:47

to know some of these things. It's

2:49

tricky because once you

2:52

see it you can't unsee it but I also

2:54

think I would rather be able to see it

2:56

than not especially given how chaotic and ridiculous the

2:58

world is and how much bullshit there is flying

3:00

everywhere out of the media, out

3:03

of people's mouths. It's hard to know

3:05

which politicians to trust and

3:07

so her work has made me feel a

3:10

bit more prepared for

3:12

the year and the years ahead. So

3:15

listen to the episode, tell me what

3:17

you think and go follow her work.

3:19

This is the fascinating Annie Zamblad. I'm

3:22

sorry my voice has been so sexy. Annie

3:38

Zamblad, welcome to I Weigh. How are

3:40

you? I'm wonderful, thank you for having

3:42

been. Good to see you, Tamila. So

3:44

good to see you. I'm so fascinated

3:46

by you. I think you have the

3:48

most bizarre and interesting life

3:51

and career of anyone I think I've ever

3:53

had on this podcast. This is really saying

3:55

something after four years. That's saying a lot.

3:57

Would you be able to talk to me

3:59

about about why you have

4:02

chosen this line of work. Yeah.

4:06

So I had a hard

4:08

childhood and spent a lot

4:10

of years feeling like

4:13

my feelings, the things that were written

4:15

and shown to me and the things

4:17

that happened to me were, I was

4:19

getting excited quite simply. So there

4:22

was trauma and there was this idea

4:24

that the things that I saw were

4:26

then, I was told, didn't happen

4:28

very shortly afterwards. It wasn't even

4:30

that it was months later, it

4:32

was very quickly afterwards. And

4:35

I grew up in a place where

4:38

feelings weren't given much attention.

4:41

So England? I know. I'm

4:43

pretty Chicago, actually. Right. Fascinating.

4:46

I thought it was just us. Just you. No.

4:49

No, there are other oppressed peoples, too. So

4:53

I became obsessed with sort

4:55

of what was between the

4:57

surface. And I became very

5:00

focused really early on

5:02

in my childhood about who I could

5:04

trust and who I couldn't trust. And

5:07

so I was and continue

5:09

to be hypervigilant. It's

5:12

just something that was layered into me

5:14

in the beginning. And

5:16

so I left home at the age

5:18

of 16. I went on a rotary scholarship.

5:20

And that was my version, really, of running away from

5:23

home. I kind of knew

5:25

I wouldn't survive on the streets. I really needed to

5:27

get away. And so I

5:29

went to Sweden. I'm an American kid and

5:32

grew up in the US. I learned Swedish

5:34

when I was 16 years old. And

5:37

I spent the next 25 years

5:39

moving around from country to country. I

5:41

studied as an anthropologist in Sweden. And

5:45

I learned eight languages,

5:47

mostly through immersion. Wow. I'm

5:49

not that great at languages. So I spent

5:51

years of my life not understanding what people

5:53

are feeling. And I think that was my

5:56

way of dealing with trauma was to

5:58

keep stimulating my brain. and

6:01

stimulating my communication skills. Because

6:03

it was harder to decode people when

6:05

you can't understand their words, you're really

6:07

then having to rely on their body language.

6:09

Well, you really have to. Yeah, and I

6:11

spent years of my life just staring

6:14

at people's faces. And I

6:16

was utterly convinced. I mean, it's been sort

6:18

of this lifelong thing to tell me that

6:20

I can't do something, that I become obsessed

6:23

with doing it. And I

6:25

think it was because there was such

6:27

a disconnect between what I saw and

6:29

felt and what I was told that

6:32

I saw and felt. And I think

6:34

probably around the age of 10 or 12, I

6:37

learned about the work of Paul Ekman, who

6:40

started to scientifically code the

6:42

facial expressions. And his work of

6:45

categorizing the universal facial

6:47

expressions of mankind was really based

6:49

on the work of Darwin. And

6:51

Darwin's work, of course, was going

6:54

from tribe to tribe, categorizing these

6:56

facial expressions. And the

6:58

reason he was able to do it is

7:00

because it's innately wired into us humans. It's

7:02

a species thing. It has nothing to do

7:04

with culture. So the great irony of my

7:07

life is that I don't specifically work with

7:09

cultural differences. I work with the pieces of

7:11

us humans that are universal. Right. How has

7:13

that... I mean, I would love

7:15

to get into how that has worked

7:17

within your career. But emotionally,

7:19

has that led to you feeling

7:21

more safe? That's a really good

7:23

question. And I think, yes, absolutely.

7:27

I was reading this beautiful

7:29

quote that it was about

7:32

how much of love is lost because

7:35

between the words, the things we say and don't

7:37

mean and the things we mean and don't say.

7:41

And I am able to see

7:44

exactly in the moment if somebody means

7:46

their words or if somebody doesn't mean

7:48

the words because I'm looking for when

7:50

the facial expression matches the words.

7:53

And so if somebody says they love me, I

7:56

can see on their face clear as day, Oh,

7:58

yes, you do. How

8:01

can you see that? They will pucker their chin.

8:03

They'll take those soft. If someone

8:05

isn't watching this, can you sort of

8:07

describe it if they're just listening? Yeah.

8:10

So with love, when we're telling somebody that

8:12

we have great depth of emotion for them,

8:15

if I were telling you and declaring my

8:17

love for you for the first time and

8:19

a little bit concerned that maybe you were

8:21

going to reject me, I would

8:23

pucker my chin because there is no

8:26

love without vulnerability. And so all

8:28

your vulnerability is in your chin? Our

8:30

achy-breaky heart is on our chin. Can

8:32

you, even when you do it- But what if you're, okay, so

8:34

this is just the first time someone says they love you, not

8:36

every time they ever- Well, I mean, I- This is like that

8:39

first time that you're extending that life.

8:41

Anytime I'm really feeling like I'm making a declaration.

8:43

I would even say, you know, I would even pucker

8:45

my chin sometimes when I say to my kid, you

8:47

know, my son will say, well, how come I can't

8:49

stay out until two o'clock in the ring? Because I

8:51

love you, because I love you, because you're not replaceable.

8:54

Right. And I worry and I can't sleep when you're not

8:56

home. Oh, that's so funny. And is that for

8:58

everyone? Yeah, it's just universal. It's like, I describe

9:00

it like a, our chin is like a smooth

9:03

grape. And when we pucker

9:05

it, we turn it into this little raisin, this dimply

9:07

raisin. As soon as you do it, you feel it

9:09

in your solar plexus. You're like, oh. If

9:11

you make this sound, oh. Oh.

9:14

Oh, you automatically do it. Oh, yeah. Oh,

9:17

oh. Oh, that's so funny. I don't

9:19

think I've ever noticed that. With

9:22

nine billion people on the planet, is

9:24

there no variation? No, not

9:26

unless we have some kind of facial paralysis. Or

9:29

if you're not feeling the feeling, then

9:32

you don't make the micro-expressions. So everybody

9:34

makes these big same facial expressions with

9:36

more little. We're actually trained out

9:38

of them by our parents. So we're not

9:40

trained into the facial expressions. We're trained out

9:42

of them. How are we trained out of

9:44

them? Look me in the eyes when

9:46

you speak to me, Janila. Look me in the eyes when

9:49

you answer, mama. Like, the right, right, right, right, right. When

9:51

you talk to me, look me in the eyes, be polite.

9:53

And we lose this sort of, this is what we

9:55

naturally do. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,

9:58

tick, tick. Babies will do that. that

10:00

to look over your hope. So I teach my

10:02

students look me on the face, right?

10:04

Not looking in the eyes. Look, watch, watch my

10:06

and when you get to a really important piece

10:09

of a negotiation or a date, you're going

10:11

to want to shift your gaze down here

10:14

to see how they respond to you. So

10:16

if someone were to learn these things, they

10:18

would be able to potentially fake these things.

10:21

Well, you can't fake the micro expressions, they're

10:23

up to a 25th of a second. And

10:25

they precede the thought process. I

10:27

mean, I can try and I can like hold

10:30

the disgust face, I can hold

10:32

the vulnerability face, the timing's off. So

10:34

you would automatically be like, what the hell

10:36

is this girl doing? Oh,

10:38

this is fascinating. Okay, so I have had

10:40

a problem with my facial expressions my whole

10:42

life, right? And I've been told off my

10:45

facial expressions my whole life, I have quite

10:47

a dead face. And also,

10:49

I sometimes don't make the

10:51

correct facial expression for the

10:54

like scenario. And I think that

10:56

yeah, we have a large neurodivergent

10:59

audience as well, I think. And so

11:01

maybe they would also wonder that given

11:05

that sometimes social cues or

11:07

facial expressions aren't always totally

11:10

natural, or necessarily societally fitting

11:12

neurotypical, what does it

11:14

mean for them? Is that a separate

11:17

case? Yeah, so first of all, I'm

11:19

not an expert. And being neurodivergent, I

11:21

am fascinated have always been fascinated by

11:24

I have friends, loved ones, students, family

11:26

members, a lot of people that I'm

11:28

really, really close to that are on

11:30

the spectrum that have autism. And

11:33

so what I'm seeing with from

11:35

my own experience is that the micro

11:38

expressions all match, you know, that there

11:40

is universal as directions. When

11:42

men are around, it's a change of blood flow

11:44

and muscle movement. It's the same, like, it's not,

11:46

you know, when you're sad or when you're angry.

11:48

And if you do that, you need to see

11:51

somebody above my pay grade, right? But I mean,

11:53

that's when it I use that example, because it's

11:55

so clear that when you're aroused, you get an

11:57

erection and you can't fake it. But

11:59

I don't know what that person is thinking. I

12:01

don't know if there's a naked man in front

12:04

of me with an erection. I'm not 100% sure

12:06

he's thinking about me, but I know

12:08

for a fact he's aroused. Just like

12:10

if I see in a moment his

12:12

pupils dilate, there's a change in blood

12:14

flow and muscle movement in his body and his pupils

12:16

will dilate. And I know

12:19

he's aroused by just watching his pupils.

12:21

You have to look for a movement. And is this

12:23

like you if you look to the left, it means

12:26

you're lying or something like that? Or that creates the

12:28

side of the brain. Yes, I think there's some studies

12:30

about that. I've never found it to be true. You'll

12:32

watch me as soon as I start thinking I

12:34

look up, but I've never found any

12:36

correlation with where I look and whether or

12:38

not I'm telling the truth. Interesting.

12:41

Yeah. So with neurodiversity, for example,

12:43

I do see what is so

12:46

interesting to me with my students

12:48

that have autism is

12:50

that their parents will sometimes if

12:52

they have neurotypical parents or one

12:54

neurotypical parent, the parent will often

12:56

be frustrated because they're not feeling

12:58

what they're supposed

13:00

to be feeling. So that's ridiculous.

13:02

We can't be in charge of

13:04

what other people are going to

13:06

feel all the time. That's crazy.

13:09

No, totally. But I think it's just the

13:11

fact that I'm thinking about, and I think

13:14

this is specifically for girls in particular, we've

13:17

learned so many faces that we're

13:19

supposed to make. And this

13:21

podcast being videoed has been

13:23

a huge wake up call

13:25

for me about how often

13:27

I'm making the wrong face

13:30

for what I feel. So

13:32

it's like I look like I'm smelling shit all

13:34

the time. Right. That's a no-be. And then

13:36

I can see myself start, but

13:39

I'm not thinking though. I'm thinking, yes,

13:41

it's just my brain is thinking. I

13:43

don't know really what the disconnect is,

13:45

but I've learned so many facial expressions

13:47

for when I'm actively listening to someone

13:49

or when I'm trying to communicate friendliness

13:51

or any of these things. And so

13:53

I wonder if someone would

13:56

just, I mean, it is technically disingenuous.

13:59

So I guess. So I would

14:01

see that. Okay. Right. And

14:03

so what I look for often is the no face. That's

14:06

the face we do and we don't want something.

14:08

It makes perfect sense. I'm not going to eat

14:10

that. Somebody comes with the airplane with your baby

14:12

and you're like, oh, that smells terrible. It actually

14:14

shuts off the sense of smell. We

14:16

sprinkled it that minute. It shuts off

14:18

our nostrils. And

14:21

if we really dislike something, we'll actually tuck

14:23

our chin and that will close off our

14:25

throat. So it's basically saying, no, I will

14:27

not eat that. You don't get to come

14:29

inside. No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. And

14:32

that's the big macro expression. It's got

14:34

three pieces, the wrinkle here,

14:36

the lifting of the nasolabial for

14:38

all and lifting the upper lip.

14:40

It's that like seventh grade girl. That's a bully.

14:42

That's like, they were going to wear that. Yeah.

14:45

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

14:48

That's what you're saying. Oh,

14:51

that's so interesting. And it just leaks. It's like,

14:53

it's like the eye tick, you know, that I

14:55

get sometimes when I'm stressed where it goes

14:57

boom. It's almost like this little jolt of

14:59

electricity. But what we'll do very gently when

15:02

we're uncomfortable and we can be uncomfortable with

15:04

anything, it doesn't mean I hate you or I

15:06

don't want to do this. It's just as soon

15:09

as we deepen what I call the nostril shadows.

15:12

So that's it. I like to put

15:14

easy language on it because I spent a

15:16

lot of time teaching my children and

15:19

I work a lot in workshops teaching people.

15:21

And if I start talking about the nasolabial

15:23

for like, nobody's going to remember that after.

15:26

Right. And also shadows. That's

15:28

the no face. So watch what happens when I make

15:30

it when I do a smile to mask it. It's

15:33

just the Oh God, I live in LA. Everyone

15:35

smiles like that here. No. They

15:38

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the love of home. This

18:21

is so fascinating. Okay, so can I

18:23

ask, does this in your

18:26

personal life make other people

18:28

nervous around you?

18:31

So it's either of the extremes.

18:33

It's either like, oh my God,

18:35

you can see everything. Let me

18:38

tell you everything I've

18:40

ever experienced. And

18:42

that's generally the boys. The boys,

18:44

the men will say, okay,

18:46

you can see everything anyway. It's

18:48

almost like they're going to a

18:51

psychologist. I've been storing up these

18:53

problems. Let me tell you

18:55

what they are. I mean, I cannot tell

18:57

you how many times I've walked off the

18:59

stage, had someone wait till

19:02

I'm by myself and then come over

19:04

and told me that they were sexually

19:06

assaulted. Yeah. Yeah, as a child and you're the first

19:08

person I've ever told me. And these are, you know,

19:10

50 year old men. Fucking

19:12

fascinating. And also just

19:15

the fact that so many massive companies

19:17

have worked with you in your

19:19

life because it's such a big part

19:22

of negotiation, being able to recognize someone

19:25

else's intentions and honesty when you're going

19:27

into business with them, which I think

19:29

extends obviously as with your

19:32

work to our interpersonal relationships. But I

19:34

think that's just something I would never

19:36

have considered happened in a boardroom that

19:38

they have a facial expression analysis.

19:41

They don't. And for years and years I worked

19:43

as a strategic advisor and nobody knew I did

19:45

this. I had three ring ups in the world

19:47

that I knew that I could

19:50

code. And everybody knew when

19:52

I lived in Southeast Asia, everybody knew that I

19:55

had something. The only other people

19:57

who can see that I'm doing something funky.

20:00

are like the secret service,

20:02

kind of the bodyguards of

20:04

people, of very, you

20:06

know, people that need bodyguards.

20:09

They take one look at me and I'm

20:11

sure it's that I hold my gaze

20:13

too long and I'm tracking, I'm going up

20:15

and down the face rather than just

20:17

looking somebody in the eyes and I'm

20:19

looking too long. And I can see it

20:21

almost instantly. They register, you know, they

20:23

start getting itchy and they give me this

20:26

look like you're made. And so do

20:28

you, can you ever switch it off? No,

20:31

never. Does that get exhausting? I

20:33

really think. Yeah, I have a

20:35

friend who says that he can

20:37

see the, you know, the dead in

20:39

the room and

20:42

that he can see other people's relatives and

20:44

that he's constantly getting messages. And

20:47

I'm not the person to say scientifically

20:49

whether that's possible or not, but

20:52

I do witness this person go

20:54

through that. Being overwhelmed. And being

20:56

scarily accurate with strangers all the

20:58

time who they didn't need to

21:00

talk to and weren't, like getting money

21:02

from. They were just blurting things out in like

21:04

Starbucks. And so I

21:07

find him to be like a constantly

21:09

exhausted person because he's just always receiving

21:11

codes of information. And that's exactly the

21:14

same for you just in a much

21:16

more literal, physical way. Yeah,

21:20

it's utterly overwhelming. What do you

21:22

do at a party? I

21:25

really find at a party. I

21:28

don't go to a lot of parties, but there was

21:30

a section in my book

21:32

that I wrote about my friend with a big brain

21:35

who likes to give me this, you know,

21:37

a glass of champagne because I so rarely drink.

21:40

And he knows that I'm so

21:42

unfiltered. I mean, I see so

21:44

much of humanity all over the

21:46

place. So he likes to get

21:48

me a little bit of champagne and he likes

21:50

to have me code everybody in the room, especially

21:52

the men. And he used to take me to

21:54

parties and he'd say, I want to know who

21:56

to invest in. That guy, that guy, that

21:58

guy, go have a good conversation. and tell me if

22:00

he's genuine, tell me if you believe him, tell me

22:03

if he's a sociopath, that

22:06

kind of thing. And it's not that

22:08

difficult to get a pretty quick

22:11

read. What you need

22:13

to remember is that I can see the feelings,

22:15

not the thought process. So I can

22:17

see if somebody responds to something with empathy or

22:20

kindness, or if they sneer, or if

22:22

they show arousal or

22:25

pleasure in someone else's pain and

22:27

suffering. That's a big problem for

22:29

me. Or if they show kindness

22:31

and empathy when you talk about something in

22:33

my life that's hard or my kids life. But

22:36

coming back to this feeling of it being overwhelmed,

22:38

I mean, I've had a lot of guilt,

22:40

I've raised my three children as human

22:42

lie detectors. And realizing as

22:44

they got to be teenagers, the

22:47

burden that they carried around

22:49

on their shoulders by being able to see

22:51

all these grown up, see through all the

22:54

grown ups around them. And also you can't

22:56

lie to your children. Not even a little bit.

22:58

And also I think what I wanted to touch

23:00

on is that, you know, as much as you

23:02

have worked training people within the world of business,

23:05

I know that like a large part of your

23:07

passion is to arm people, women especially, but I

23:09

think everyone with

23:11

this tool, which I think is so important.

23:14

And you know, I'm sure

23:16

there have been other periods

23:18

of dishonesty throughout history, but

23:20

because of the prevalence of

23:22

AI and unbelievably boldly dishonest

23:25

politicians and media figures

23:27

and social media, meaning

23:29

that the lie gets halfway

23:32

around the world before the truth has a

23:34

chance to get its trousers on. Like this

23:36

feels like the time where we most need

23:38

to be able to decipher honesty when it

23:40

comes to who we choose to go to

23:42

bed with or who we choose to live

23:44

with or who we choose to work with

23:46

or who we choose to vote for. I

23:48

agree with you. I think on both sides

23:50

of the aisle is so incredibly disheartening.

23:52

I mean, I think there

23:55

were certainly times in my life where

23:57

I thought one party was somehow

24:00

more honest than another one. And I'm

24:03

looking at these politicians and thinking, the

24:06

more you know, the more upsetting it

24:09

is in general. And so there

24:11

are certain things that we look for. We look

24:13

for in dishonesty and deception. We look for the

24:15

words not matching the micro-expressions. Is

24:17

somebody nodding a lot while they're saying, no, I

24:19

did not have sexual relations with that woman? That's

24:23

a problem. No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no,

24:25

I didn't. That's the easiest

24:27

one to see. And that's not even

24:29

universal. I mean, the micro-expressions are universal

24:32

to our species. Nodding and shaking heads

24:34

are actually depend, I'm an anthropologist. Anybody

24:37

who spends time in Sri

24:39

Lanka or India, or you know, there's lots of

24:41

places in the world where they have different head

24:43

movements. But if you have a

24:46

British man who's lived in England his entire

24:48

life, for example, and he's saying, I did

24:50

not, you know, I am not the father

24:52

of that child. Well, nodding. I

24:55

would maybe take a second look at that.

24:57

And so the micro-expressions say that, it shows

25:00

us where to dig. It's

25:02

not definitive lie detection, but

25:04

if somebody says every time I'm talking

25:06

about working with Tom, I'm growling, then

25:09

there's something that you're gonna wanna ask more questions

25:11

about. And I know that we touched on ways

25:13

in which this can be a bit exhausting to

25:16

you and you can't turn it off, but I

25:18

also think when it comes to mental health, I

25:20

think one of the reasons I wanted to talk

25:22

to you and ask you about the book and

25:24

to teach all of us what

25:26

you know, just like a little bit of what you know is because

25:28

I do think that my mental

25:30

health has been helped by learning how to

25:33

decipher some

25:35

of these things. And mostly, you know, I could

25:37

feel then, I feel a bit

25:39

safer. My cortisol isn't always activated because I'm

25:41

not always in fight or flight because I

25:43

have some sort of sense of agency. Like

25:46

I know what's going on. Something

25:48

that I still struggle with a lot and

25:50

I think a lot of people do is,

25:52

you know, what we refer to as the

25:54

gut instinct. And I

25:56

know that that's something that you feel very passionately about. So could

25:59

you talk more about that? to me about that.

26:01

So our good instinct is basically our

26:03

primitive brain, our paleo-mimalian brain

26:05

that is telling us, you know, what

26:07

is dangerous and what is safe. And

26:11

in particular, I feel like

26:13

women are trained to disregard that

26:15

and that no, you're being judgmental.

26:17

You're not being kind. You're seeing

26:19

things as black and white. That

26:21

didn't really happen. You're hysterical. You're

26:24

crazy. You're over emotional. And

26:27

what I am trying to do with

26:29

the remainder of my life is to

26:31

teach people the words and the science,

26:34

so the vocabulary and the science for

26:37

what they're seeing right in front of

26:39

us that our brains are interpreting anyway.

26:41

So, you know, if you see somebody crying,

26:43

regardless if the tears are streaming down their

26:46

face, you know that that person is sad.

26:48

You see the full macro expression, the entire

26:50

puzzle. And so a

26:52

foil, I'm not safe. And you

26:54

see it, but you may not

26:57

really be super aware of the fact

26:59

that they're tempting their eyebrows and they're

27:01

showing what I call a line of

27:04

sorrow, which is this skin loses gravity.

27:06

Darwin talked a lot about like when

27:08

humans are so I brag. Yeah,

27:10

it's this fold of skin that

27:12

comes down really minutely. And

27:15

then the purple, the chin neck pushes

27:17

the lower lip up and out. And

27:20

so if I can teach you the words in

27:22

the cabin, you're looking, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking,

27:24

oh honey, you look, you look sad.

27:26

And you know, or if I say, how are

27:28

you doing today? And you say great. And you

27:30

pucker your chin. I know for a fact,

27:32

you're not doing great. That's my instance proof

27:35

that you're feeling vulnerability. I

27:38

don't know why you're feeling vulnerability. I

27:40

would have to ask, but I

27:43

know beyond a shadow of a doubt,

27:45

I can identify the feeling in real

27:47

time. And so when we're looking

27:49

to see if we're on a date with

27:51

someone, for example, when we're talking about something

27:53

that's hard for us emotionally, physically, or

27:56

financially, that person, if

27:58

they're connected and deepened, conversation and their

28:00

focus on they should be showing some compassion,

28:03

vulnerability in in their chin, they

28:05

should be mirroring our what we're talking

28:07

about. Now, I think they're not

28:09

it's possible they still care about you, but they're

28:11

thinking about something else, but they're not feeling emotionally

28:14

attached or connected in that moment. And

28:16

people have a very hard time thinking that first

28:18

of all, they just don't know. And second of

28:20

all, like the timing and the movement, your gut

28:23

will tell you when something's off. So if I

28:25

can teach you the science, and somebody is leaning

28:27

over you and saying, I'm so happy to hear

28:29

you got that promotion. And they're

28:31

growling at you like a dog. Just

28:33

ever so slightly and you said that's only

28:36

a second right, but it just

28:38

goes really fast and tiny quick smell. If you're looking

28:40

at it, if you're looking for it, and if I

28:42

just say, if I say I heard you got I

28:44

heard you got that deal you were looking for. And

28:47

if you're if your eyes are already there, you see

28:50

it, even if you're just not

28:52

trained. God, I've never noticed that before. I've

28:54

never because it must be so subtle. Also,

28:57

not to be really silly, but just to

28:59

be perfectly honest. What about when

29:01

people have had loads of Botox and fillets?

29:03

What do you do then? So this was

29:05

still new, this part the gobella doesn't move.

29:08

So you're not going to see as much

29:10

as anyone is listening. So it's the forehead

29:12

that this is the gobella, the space between

29:14

our eyebrows. And so people put Botox and

29:17

all sorts of places that that this will

29:19

still twitch. And you'll still

29:21

you know, as you were saying with Hollywood

29:23

has LA has the the people that are

29:25

all the time going, you still see

29:27

that nostril shadow even if they put

29:29

in fillers and done a lot of

29:32

work there, you're still gonna see it

29:34

differ from their baseline from what their

29:36

face looks like when it's neutral. Totally.

29:38

And so if you are trying to

29:40

figure out your gut is

29:42

telling you, I just don't trust this guy.

29:45

And he's like, let me tell you about all

29:47

the great things are going to happen if you

29:49

stick with me, he's gonna start twitching here if

29:51

his body will betray his words. So

29:54

really, it's the sides of the nose that

29:56

are going to like give away a lot

29:58

of your safety. Yeah, that's really a

30:00

lot of your safety. And so if

30:02

you are seeing it and you say,

30:05

Oh, he said all the right things,

30:07

and he's offering more money for the

30:09

same project than someone else, you're really

30:11

tempted to go to go with somebody

30:13

who's saying the right things, who's, you

30:16

know, who's maybe love bombing you,

30:19

who's, who's offering money or things

30:21

that you want, whatever it might be in

30:24

a, you know, in a business or a romantic

30:26

relationship. But if your

30:28

gut is there is telling you, hey,

30:30

there's something off, and you see that

30:32

every time he says something nice, he

30:34

twitches, then you know for sure, okay,

30:36

that was the proof I needed. Right.

30:38

So essentially, it's that you can't fully

30:40

control someone's access to their gut instinct.

30:43

But what you can do is affirm

30:45

that, that suspicion of a

30:47

gut instinct by giving them fact, so

30:49

that they have something to look on

30:51

that they can confirm maybe there is

30:53

no gut instinct of fear there. But

30:55

it can confirm any kind of uncomfortable

30:57

queasy feeling you might have about someone.

30:59

I think that's really important. I do

31:01

think that we all need to work

31:03

harder, we are being driven away from

31:05

our gut instinct in every way possible

31:07

with the distraction of the screens and

31:09

the chaos and the noise and the

31:11

anxiety and the medications and the foods

31:13

and all the different things that pull

31:15

us out of ourselves, like the amount that people

31:18

may drink or take drugs. There's

31:20

so many things that detach us from and

31:23

also, sorry, largely trauma, you know, where

31:25

you're like, is this a trigger? Or

31:27

am I actually unsafe in this moment?

31:29

Well, no, that's exactly it. We do

31:31

need to keep doing that work to

31:33

tune into ourselves. But it is fantastic

31:35

to have almost like mathematical or a

31:37

scientific account. Well, that was it. That

31:39

was for me when I realized in

31:42

my adolescence that there was a way

31:45

to prove that I was seeing

31:47

what I was seeing. And then

31:49

I could prove that my sixth grade

31:51

teacher who was a pedophile was a

31:53

bad man. And every time he talked

31:55

to any of the girls, he growled

31:57

like a dog. And I didn't know

32:00

what it was, and it was off, and I

32:02

knew something was off. And, you know, two years

32:04

later, I had a classmate that told me that

32:06

he was molested. And as a grown up,

32:08

we formed a team and went

32:10

after him. We found eight victims.

32:13

And we think they're up to 200. I'm

32:15

so sorry to hear that happen. Yeah.

32:17

You know, this being able to put

32:19

words on what I see and what

32:22

I know has been life-changing for me.

32:24

And the really interesting thing

32:26

that I think I kind of didn't

32:28

expect was it shows you who

32:30

the predators are, but it also shows you

32:32

who you can trust. It

32:35

shows you who loves you and who wishes

32:38

you well and who wants you to be

32:40

happy and flourish and

32:42

thrive and who, even when

32:45

their feelings are hurt, are still

32:47

concerned with your well-being. So without

32:49

further ado, can we give the

32:52

audience your kind of top five

32:54

steps to being able to recognize

32:56

the guys? Yes. OK. So

32:58

one of the things we're going to look for is

33:01

the facial expression of joy. If

33:03

someone is genuinely feeling happy, their

33:05

cheeks lose gravity. It has nothing to do

33:08

with the mouth. Their cheeks pop

33:10

up. And this skin right here bulges out

33:12

because it's got nowhere to go. Those are

33:14

called smile bags. I call them smile bags.

33:16

That's why they call it smiling, right? When you

33:18

make the eyes, it's probably smiling, even with the

33:21

rest of your face on. You can do the

33:23

fake thing. And that will leave this fairly flat.

33:25

So I can fake smile. Or

33:28

I can really smile and move out my

33:30

cheeks. And

33:32

again, it's not

33:34

necessarily relevant. It's relevant

33:36

if you really deeply care about someone, to see if

33:39

they're really happy or not. With

33:41

my child, if I have a four-year-old and they're going

33:43

like this every time, I'm thinking, what's wrong? They're

33:46

pretending to be happy when they're not. But a

33:48

grown-up, I might just be having a hard day. I'm

33:50

going to still give you a smile if we're friends,

33:52

even though I mean, I feel it in the depths

33:54

of my soul. So it's a social smile. But you

33:57

also touched on knowing if someone's happy for you. Yeah,

33:59

what I really love. Worry about is that

34:01

the informal triangles as the balls, the

34:03

chief, the apples in a then pop

34:05

up. When. I worry about

34:07

with that is whether a with

34:09

when they pop up and that

34:11

person is showing leisure. When. Some

34:14

in someone elses paint right? so

34:16

say they problem that needs to

34:19

match. I hate the other day

34:21

my boyfriends. Dropped coffee. All

34:23

the way down themselves. Not in a way

34:25

that banned him but it was over his

34:27

new fancy coast and that was his but

34:29

clumsiness event and that's how refiners he is

34:31

on your part of a thing and I

34:33

it's Lucky bus and lot of the other.

34:35

he was really pissed at me and that

34:37

fondly because in England but we have a

34:39

So called that it like a historic so

34:42

good even frames and lot of a Saturday

34:44

of the people falling over and us. I

34:46

guess being taught that it was funny and

34:48

finding it funny. I also did a circle

34:50

the Misery index. Am I a sociopath with

34:52

an. Usher your life outside

34:54

that something bad acid someone ally and

34:56

of night and I also know that

34:58

me laugh I nervously lost an uncle

35:00

see enroll like hi I'd I'd have

35:03

problems you know what? would the same

35:05

of Allah? Because I

35:07

know I'm not supposed to have that reps and

35:09

I can't stop and I get the terrible giggles.

35:12

Doing. That sitting President see

35:14

Senator Mccain and think that's

35:17

hysterical. Know or somebody say my

35:19

grandmother has cancer in your life

35:21

of us is yeah is facing

35:23

not You are. You. Are

35:25

thinking i need to be socially appropriate

35:27

and then just losing your supposedly look

35:29

something like looked funny Chaos? To me.

35:31

That's funny. I think it's funny when

35:34

I fall over. Yeah, so but yeah

35:36

yeah. I do need to Alcatraz I

35:38

because he was. Like this is really unhelpful.

35:41

You. See you and then I love Nailed

35:43

I saying he hurt his point of he

35:45

burns himself deeply as he cut. Oh. My.

35:47

God. Yeah, none of that asymptote, right? you? run

35:50

out and says he says no faith

35:52

yeah no i wouldn't last night your

35:54

expresses or mattingly a time not dead

35:56

inside i'll let you keep going So

36:00

then we've got the no taste that we

36:02

talked about. Yeah. Right. It was slightly snarly

36:04

labial fold. Yeah. Yeah.

36:07

That sounded dirty. Sorry, labial

36:10

fold. Does that, is that

36:12

the vagina? Sorry, nasal. I

36:15

mean, it's not. So you have to

36:17

pull up their knickers or pull down

36:19

their knickers and have a look at

36:21

their vagina. And if their vagina is

36:23

cringing, then it means they're not happy.

36:27

Oh, fuck. I'm so sorry. I,

36:30

I've been up to 2am. I'm

36:32

trying really hard. Wait

36:34

a second. I have no, people are going

36:36

to remember it. Oh, totally. I mean, what

36:38

about the asshole? What does the asshole tell

36:40

us about someone else? It

36:43

means that they're tense. Like if

36:45

there's a clintic, so anger, anger

36:47

for example, is, so I get asked all the

36:49

time. I have men that come up to me after I've

36:51

spoken and they're like, my

36:54

wife says I'm crabby all the time and I'm not crabby. I

36:56

cannot tell you how many men. So

36:58

while making such a crabby. Yeah. And

37:01

I go, okay, honey, you're thinking about

37:03

work. Yeah, I'm thinking about work. And it's

37:05

almost like talking to a little kid. I

37:07

mean, and I was like, well, you too

37:09

can tell your wife that if you're angry,

37:12

you're going to have tight lips. But

37:14

that the forehead, the brows concentration

37:16

and problem solving is the same

37:19

as the brow of anger because there's a,

37:21

there's a piece of something is unjust, unfair,

37:23

wrong, needs to be fixed, needs to be

37:25

solved. These are our thinking muscles.

37:28

That's the base I make during debates. So

37:31

people think I'm looking at them like they're fucking

37:33

stupid. And it's not that I'm just trying to

37:35

solve the puzzle. If you're angry, your lips will

37:37

be tight and close. Yeah,

37:40

always anger always has a taste. I need to tell

37:43

my friends that because when they're, when we're in a

37:45

dispute, yeah. But imagine

37:47

if you do too much botox and then you

37:49

can't use your thinking muscles. Right.

37:53

So that's one of the reasons it helps with depression

37:55

because you stopped ruminating quite so much. You can't quite

37:57

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38:46

still. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.

38:51

Well,

38:54

it's also partially I imagine like facial expressions.

38:57

There was a lot of talk after like

38:59

year two of the pandemic where children were

39:01

wearing masks at a very developmental age and

39:04

they felt as though that was creating,

39:06

I guess slowing down their ability to pick up

39:08

certain facial things. Yeah, what kind of what our

39:11

parents do when they say, look me in the

39:13

eyes, look me in the eyes, look me in

39:15

the eyes, we're like losing all of this muscle

39:18

movement that we're supposed to be, this is

39:20

our original human movement. And they're not learning

39:22

how to recognize it in each other. That's

39:25

right. And as grown ups, most of it

39:27

I've lost is that earlier I can teach

39:29

somebody the better. My

39:31

youngest student is three. When

39:34

I work with her, she's like, duh. She

39:38

knows all the facial expressions. That's what she

39:40

uses. She doesn't have a fully

39:42

developed vocabulary because she's three. I

39:45

mean, she's faithful, she's very bright,

39:48

but they still rely on the facial

39:50

expressions. Yeah. And also, I guess there's

39:52

such a wonderful purity to how children

39:54

aren't holding that back yet, which

39:57

I really enjoy. Talk to me

39:59

about holding back. Okay,

40:02

that actually has a little bit of a

40:04

pucker on the chin, but the only reason

40:06

it's got the chin pucker is because it

40:09

takes a lot of muscles to get this

40:11

bubble right here. And it's because you're almost

40:13

physically holding the words inside of your mouth.

40:15

Yeah, it's the facial expression fighting our tongue.

40:18

Yeah. And I call Brock

40:20

Obama the king of suppression because he's forever

40:22

making the facial expression. I

40:24

have something to say that I'm itching to

40:27

say, and I'm not going to do it.

40:29

Yeah, I'm not allowed in a board meeting,

40:31

in any kind of work

40:33

meeting. I mean, you could see somebody in

40:35

a meeting make that facial expression. And

40:38

it may be that they have something really important to

40:40

say, but it's almost lunchtime. They

40:42

don't really want to eat. It's so funny you

40:44

say that because when you mentioned the Brock Obama

40:46

thing, I was also thinking about who I see

40:48

make that face the most. And aside from it

40:50

being English people in general,

40:54

women and women in business

40:56

scenarios, over and over again.

40:59

Women who are in a meeting in

41:01

a big board room meeting, or when

41:03

everyone's pitching ideas or in a writer's

41:06

room, or on set even, you

41:08

can see, or even when someone's doing their

41:10

hair and makeup, I can see that. And

41:12

they don't quite like it. And they want

41:14

to say something. But they're not going to

41:16

say it. And I see women do it

41:18

more than men because women are so incredibly

41:20

suppressed. And I think that may be

41:22

a good thing for us to all hear about to

41:24

know that maybe that's an opportunity to even if you

41:26

don't in the room, make someone

41:30

expose their true thoughts where maybe they don't

41:32

feel safe to maybe taking them aside and

41:34

saying like, Oh, I noticed that you maybe

41:36

had something you wanted to say. Yeah, what

41:39

did you think about that? You know, when

41:41

you were when so and so said this,

41:43

or when this topic came out, what do

41:45

you what do you think about that? And

41:47

people will almost always tell you, because they

41:50

have to physically restrain themselves from saying the

41:52

words. And I have

41:54

to I have to like, really hold back

41:56

and bite my tongue. And the

41:58

second you give me an opportunity. to tell you

42:00

what's going on. I am going to tell you. Oh,

42:03

we want to do the ocrac face. I

42:05

wanted to tell you. Yes, we still have

42:07

the ocrac face and the maybe face. Okay,

42:09

those are good faces. So let's do the

42:11

maybe face first. The maybe face is really

42:13

fun because I'm going to

42:16

show it to you. You tell me which cultures like to

42:18

make the maybe face all the time.

42:20

Yeah. Is there an act you think of

42:22

that does that? I mean, I think

42:25

of Al Pacino immediately in like Robert

42:27

De Niro. It's an Italian associated

42:30

facial expression. It's the kind of like upside

42:32

down smile for anyone who's listening upside down

42:34

you that you do with your mouth. Yeah.

42:36

So it's almost kind of creating a hill

42:39

shape with your mouth. And it can be

42:41

so each of these facial expressions, I put

42:43

one word on them because I think it's

42:45

a really easy simple way to

42:47

remember them. But we humans are

42:50

complex creatures. So if you try to

42:52

put words that when Al Pacino does it,

42:54

I don't know about that. You're gonna have to convince

42:56

me. It can

42:58

also be that like not bad, but

43:00

you're not 100% there. You're not 100%

43:03

accepting of what's are bought into what's

43:05

going on. And so

43:07

if you're trying to sell somebody a car and

43:09

they do that, you

43:12

have not succeeded all the way with your

43:14

pitch. Totally. But also on a date,

43:17

go with me here. Sorry, because this is just coming

43:20

off the top of the head. But on a date,

43:22

if you're seeing someone early stages of seeing someone, and

43:25

maybe you ask them how they feel about the

43:27

relationship or you express that you would like, you

43:29

know, a step further in the relationship, it

43:32

might not be as committed as

43:34

an Al Pacino on screen, several

43:36

seconds upside down smile,

43:38

right? It's gonna be a mic. What'd you say?

43:41

I was 20. This isn't really gonna be the

43:43

baby face. I use the word

43:45

micro expression, but the baby face and

43:47

also suppression. They take so many muscles

43:49

and they take so much effort. So it's a few

43:51

seconds. But is

43:54

there a way someone's trying to

43:56

conceal that they feel

43:58

maybe? Yeah, they will. don't

44:00

people are so unaware of the facial

44:02

expressions they make unless they're trying to convince

44:04

you know they're using it as a

44:06

punctuator with some cultures do

44:08

which you know they're like yeah I don't know

44:10

about that you know that might be like they're

44:13

actually trying to make the big facial expression but

44:15

if you're saying you know I'd

44:17

really like it if if we could both

44:19

get some time off work and maybe we could go away

44:21

for a couple weeks you know it would be really nice

44:24

to spend some more time together and the guy

44:26

is like no he's not totally

44:28

bought into it okay so there's

44:30

that piece so it's not it's not quite a

44:32

micro expression because it just takes too much effort

44:34

you have to hold it a little longer but

44:37

it's still gonna be fairly involuntary unless I'm

44:39

saying well he told me this and then

44:41

I was like I don't know about that

44:43

you know that's more of a punctuator right

44:46

but most of it that facial expressions I

44:48

work with genuine generally are just the universal

44:50

ones that yeah I keep I try to

44:53

keep it fairly clean cut

44:55

just because it you know those

44:57

are the ones that are going to be most useful

44:59

we can speak enough and see the really

45:01

big ones okay but that's that just means that

45:03

there's something you're not totally on the same page

45:06

with the other person okay and

45:08

so the fifth one is oh crap

45:10

oh crap and that is a piece

45:12

of fear that the whole mouth of

45:14

fear is this and it makes you

45:16

feel the next tendency jump and so you're

45:18

next so you almost look like you're making

45:20

the sort of triangle with your

45:23

you can see you can see the lower

45:25

teeth you know that's like I call it

45:27

a bit like but yeah it's like when

45:29

you're looking at something going oh shit like

45:31

you know the dread face

45:33

you're showing the like corners and the lower

45:35

teeth and often the oh crap face I

45:37

call it okay it's often just you know

45:39

it can be both but it's

45:41

often just one so yeah I'm

45:44

minus one yeah and mine

45:46

is always on my on my left side my

45:48

right you know it's just like yeah and oh

45:50

crap sometimes you know it often comes to the

45:52

sound yeah I

45:55

have no idea why and so

45:57

is that one that you feel like is

45:59

important for people to know because then

46:01

they can see if it's sincere or not.

46:03

Yeah so if you're talking with your team

46:05

and you say okay so we're working on

46:07

this project and I

46:10

want all of us to really pull a

46:12

couple of little bit you know longer days

46:15

and I want us to get it done by Thursday

46:17

and somebody on the team goes like this that's

46:19

what I'm saying I'm afraid of this

46:21

so again we can't see what they're thinking

46:24

and maybe because they they are afraid that

46:26

they don't have enough time they're afraid of

46:28

working with John or Cindy or whoever on

46:31

the team that they're not going to do

46:33

their share but it's showing like oh crap

46:35

this is it's a it's a piece of

46:37

fear it's not but it's like I

46:40

don't know that's gonna work uh-oh it's

46:42

a face. I think for parents this

46:44

is so helpful I think for team

46:46

leaders this is so helpful for organizers

46:48

this is so helpful and then

46:50

when it comes to love you

46:52

know which you talk a lot about love

46:54

and you know lust and lies etc how

46:57

would one because

46:59

I think a lot of people especially now that

47:01

we're meeting people not via you know face to

47:03

face where you kind of get a sense of

47:05

someone we're making them over apps and in pictures

47:07

and stuff you know it's it's more

47:10

detached like we look on people's social media which

47:12

is such a curated feed of who they wish

47:14

to project to the earth and then we project

47:16

all these ideas on for that so

47:18

so why is this work so important

47:20

when it comes to the dating world

47:22

into the world of love? So first

47:25

of all everything that's over

47:27

video or via social

47:29

media anything that has a layer

47:31

of there's

47:33

some kind of hinder in the connection

47:35

is problematic you know even when we're

47:38

on zoom it's there's there's less of

47:40

a connection than in person and the

47:42

micro-explanations don't necessarily match and the mirroring

47:44

that we humans do where we mirror

47:47

each other's facial expressions that's actually how

47:49

I know what emotions feel

47:51

like as a human being if we make

47:53

the facial expressions that sends a message to

47:55

the amygdala that then processes it so when

47:58

we have too much facial paralysis that's and

48:00

keep that process of emotional

48:02

intelligence. Even with

48:04

people who previously had

48:07

emotional, so there's your knowing smile, you're

48:09

like, I think that's it. No, yeah,

48:11

I was just, well, it's also, I

48:13

think I've spoken about this maybe before

48:15

in this podcast, but I find going

48:17

to the cinema very embarrassing because I

48:19

will mirror, I don't do this socially

48:21

so much, but in a cinema, I

48:23

will mimic the exact face the person's

48:25

baking. So if it's like a Leonardo

48:27

DiCaprio, Nicholas Cage movie, where they're having

48:29

like a meltdown for like half the

48:31

film, I, if you

48:33

look at me, I'm making the exact

48:35

same face of screaming, despair or anger,

48:38

or like fight scenes. Oh

48:40

my God, I'm fucking exhausted. So I had to have so much

48:42

popcorn and like so much cola, but

48:44

like I, yeah, I,

48:48

like during a fight scene, my boyfriend

48:50

actually like, he kicks his legs in

48:53

at the same time as the fight scene. So

48:55

it's actually quite dangerous to watch anything in bed

48:57

on the laptop if it's violent, because

49:00

he can't help it, he's completely unaware. And his

49:02

mouth is moving the whole time someone's talking. Like

49:04

we're both so active when we're watching

49:06

TV. And it's also like, you know, part of why

49:08

I think I've, you know, I've said everywhere that I

49:11

can't watch sex scenes because I find it too awkward

49:13

because I don't know what face to make. And part

49:15

of that is just that I'm terrified. I'm

49:17

going to make the same fucking faces, you

49:19

know, as the people on screen and it's

49:21

mortifying. Really funny. It's endless.

49:23

And so I tend to just watch things as

49:25

much as I can on my own. I

49:28

could like, there was a TV show called Gogglebox in England

49:30

that they always used to offer me to go on. I

49:32

was just like, no one can watch me

49:34

watch TV ever. No, no.

49:36

That's my personal purgatory or hell.

49:38

Yeah. But anyway, sorry, that's why

49:40

I was smiling. That's the life off. Just because there's

49:43

mirroring and then they're picking the fucking piss like me,

49:45

James. The mirroring's really important. The problem with Zoom is

49:47

that, well, I'm looking at your face now, but then

49:49

I'm not looking in the camera. If I'm looking in

49:51

the camera, that feels like I'm connecting with the audience

49:54

or you feel like I'm looking at you, then I'm

49:56

not actually, can't actually see what your face is. So

49:58

my mirroring would then be awesome. So you're

50:00

just kind of in this stuff or I just

50:03

look at myself and I'm like, oh, you know,

50:05

is my hair, it looks kind of funky today

50:07

or, or I look at my face because I'm,

50:09

I, it's an endless carnival of like what I

50:11

can do with my face. I, for whatever reason,

50:14

like a child interested in like, what

50:17

can I do? I can stretch my

50:19

face and do such strange things with

50:21

my face and I find that endlessly

50:24

entertaining. I think real work

50:26

just is going to help people, you know,

50:28

and already is helping so many people feel

50:30

a bit safer. I hope so. And as

50:32

tedious and exhausting as it is to maintain

50:35

one's safety all the time, I think

50:37

when it comes to women especially, you know,

50:39

like that sense of danger that we override

50:41

all the time, being able to

50:43

pick up on these sorts of cues or does

50:46

this person actually like me? Are

50:49

they cheating? You know, that, that, that whatever

50:51

that instinct is, that makes you want to

50:53

go through someone's phone, which I'd never recommend

50:55

doing. But

50:57

then their phone is maybe written all over their

50:59

face. You know what I

51:01

mean? And that is the thing that we

51:03

have this gut instinct and I would say

51:05

to anybody, anybody listening, but anybody really ever,

51:07

if your gut is telling you something, trust

51:09

your gut. But what about

51:11

when someone's got trauma? Because there

51:14

have been friends of mine who've been cheated on a bunch of

51:16

times and then are confused. And then

51:18

are absolutely paranoid. Well, and, and that's...

51:20

And maybe, maybe go to therapy for

51:22

the general trauma and then in the

51:24

meantime, before you feel completely safe about

51:26

your gut, learn these tools to

51:29

be able to interact with you to find it.

51:31

Well, and figure out why if you're, you know,

51:33

why are you picking people that you don't trust

51:35

to? You know, is there a

51:37

pattern and that's something that is good to

51:39

figure out in therapy too. Is there a

51:41

pattern where you're repeating some of these, these

51:44

romantic choices that, that on some deeper level

51:46

they're reminding you of some of

51:48

the scenarios you experienced as a child? Well,

51:50

when I first found out about your work,

51:52

I was so excited. And then I had

51:54

to ask myself, why am I

51:56

this excited? And I was like, oh, it's

51:58

because I've lived a lot. surrounded

52:00

by liars. Yeah. And so I

52:03

think it'll be interesting even to see who gravitates

52:06

so much towards this episode or towards your

52:09

book or towards your talks that you do

52:11

and people can come and see you. Well

52:13

it's been really interesting as

52:15

some of the people that have seen me

52:18

you know that I have a speaking career

52:20

and some people will line up afterwards and

52:22

just say thank you for putting on the

52:24

words on things that I always knew but

52:26

could never prove and so the

52:29

people that are hyper vigilant it

52:31

seems to me to be particularly easy

52:34

for them too because

52:36

they've been watching this their entire lives so now

52:38

all of a sudden there's words to put there's

52:40

vocabulary to put on the stuff that

52:42

they already know. And we just

52:45

touched on the surface of everything you go into

52:47

far more detail and depth in your work and

52:49

in your books and so everyone

52:51

should really get into the nitty-gritty and then

52:53

let this be the last year that we

52:55

all get lied to without realizing. Oh my

52:57

goodness. From your voice to my dear. It's

53:00

an election year in America and I think

53:02

maybe also the UK so if there was

53:04

ever a time we need to decipher bullshit

53:07

it is now. So

53:10

I so appreciate your work it's come at a

53:12

perfect time and perhaps 37 years

53:14

too late for me but I'd rather be

53:17

young now. I really

53:19

think you're so fascinating and your

53:21

work is really mind-blowing and very

53:23

empowering and so I

53:26

appreciate you. Likewise I appreciate you

53:28

too and all that you're doing. Thank you very

53:30

much for coming on today. Thank

53:32

you. Bye bye. Thank

53:35

you so much for listening to this week's

53:37

episode Iway with Jameela Jamil is produced and

53:40

researched by myself, Jameela Jamil, Erin Finnegan, Kimi

53:42

Gregory and Amelia Chappello and the beautiful music

53:44

that you are hearing now is made by

53:46

my boyfriend James Blake and if you haven't

53:48

already please rate, review and subscribe to the

53:50

show it's such a great way to show

53:53

your support and helped me out massively and

53:55

lastly at Iway we would love to hear from you

53:57

and share what you weigh at the end of this

53:59

podcast. Please email us

54:01

a voice recording sharing what

54:03

you weigh at [email protected]. And

54:06

now we would love to pass the mic to one of

54:08

our listeners. I

54:10

weigh having a loving and supporting

54:12

family. I

54:14

weigh being a psychotherapist

54:17

and a professional dancer.

54:20

I weigh being grateful

54:23

always. And

54:25

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54:27

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