0:01

It wasn't a completely crazy thing to call it

0:03

donut economics, because some people

0:06

say, this is a very serious model.

0:08

We're talking about the future of life on earth. How

0:10

could you name it after American drunk fruit. A

0:13

lot of people are intimidated by economics,

0:15

but no one's afraid of donuts. You might love them or hate

0:18

than being're not afraid. And it just tells you

0:20

this is a playful space. And so people showed

0:22

up and started playing. Welcome

0:27

to How the Citizen with Baritune Day, a

0:29

podcast that reimagine citizen as

0:31

a verb, not a legal status. This

0:34

season is all about how we practice

0:36

democracy, what can we get rid of, what

0:39

can we invent, and how do we change the culture

0:41

of democracy itself. We're leaving

0:43

the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground

0:45

with inspiring examples of people

0:48

and institutions that are showing us new

0:50

ways to govern ourselves. When

0:58

I first heard economist Kate ray

1:00

Worth describe her theory of donut

1:02

economics, I thought it sounded

1:04

delicious. It

1:07

was twenty eighteen and I was at this big,

1:10

fancy conference all about bold new

1:12

ideas to solve some of our most pressing

1:14

problems. Ted it was the

1:16

TED conference. Okay, there were talks

1:19

on AI mitigating the impacts

1:21

of climate change, y'all. Tracy

1:23

Ellis Ross even made an appearance. So

1:26

when Kate got up on that stage and

1:28

started talking about sweet fried

1:31

dough, it caught me off guard.

1:33

But the vision she shared for a new

1:36

circular economy that works for

1:38

everyone, I was like, yum.

1:41

Literally, economics,

1:44

as we traditionally know it is

1:47

all about one thing, growth,

1:50

and we don't just hear it from economists.

1:53

We hear it from politicians and journalists

1:55

all the time. We need to grow

1:57

our GDP. We've got a max

2:00

homage this and optimize that. We

2:02

have to produce more and consume more. They

2:06

all say we need to keep the economy

2:08

growing, But looking around,

2:11

I can't say that what we're growing is

2:13

actually good. You

2:19

know it, and I know it. We can't

2:21

maintain endless growth, at

2:23

least not in a healthy way, and that

2:26

fact seems to be obvious except

2:28

when it comes to our economy. I

2:32

mean, when something grows endlessly in

2:34

our bodies, we call that cancer

2:36

and rush to get it under control so it doesn't

2:38

destroy its host. So why

2:41

would we insist that our economy can

2:43

grow endlessly without destroying us

2:45

the people who live within it, and destroy

2:47

the planet that we live on. So

2:50

if endless growth isn't the goal, what

2:53

is. How About we prioritize

2:55

people and the planet instead of just

2:58

profit. How About we meet the needs

3:00

of everyone without exceeding the limits

3:03

of our only planet. And how

3:05

about we find ways to thrive in that

3:07

space between an inner boundary of human

3:10

need and an outer boundary of planetary

3:12

limits, a space, oddly enough,

3:15

that's shaped like a donut. This

3:18

is what donut economics is all about.

3:23

We've talked about the economy a lot

3:25

on this show because, as

3:27

we said in season two, it's hard

3:29

to citizen when you can't pay the bills. Now,

3:32

in that season, we explored how

3:34

wealth inequality stifles democracy.

3:38

We talk to historians, organizers,

3:40

and entrepreneurs. We learned about

3:42

cooperative economics, social franchises,

3:45

and other business models that put people and

3:47

the planet at the center. Kate's

3:50

theory of donut economics gives

3:52

all these beautiful solutions an umbrella

3:55

to live under. It helps those

3:57

of us who are frustrated by an economy

4:00

that only works for a select few find

4:02

and connect with one another so we can

4:05

build something better together. Kate

4:09

first coined the term donut economics

4:12

a decade ago, and her twenty seventeen

4:14

book of the same name, Donut Economics,

4:17

Seven Ways to Think Like a twenty first Century

4:19

Economist, is an international bestseller.

4:22

From promoting regenerative design

4:24

practices to encouraging play

4:26

and experimentation, Kate has envisioned

4:29

a new cyclical way our economy

4:31

confunction. In

4:35

that time, the donut has spread far

4:38

and wide. In twenty twenty,

4:40

Amsterdam announced it would start embracing

4:42

the theory of donut economics,

4:45

along with cities like Barcelona and Philadelphia.

4:48

And the donut isn't just trickling down

4:51

to borrow a term from economics,

4:53

It's bubbling up in communities

4:55

around the world. Kate's

4:57

even created a lab, the Donut

5:00

Comics Action Lab, to support

5:02

people turning this theory into action.

5:06

So you're in for a sweet

5:08

treat of a conversation after

5:11

the break, Kate Rayworth on how

5:13

we build an economy that works for the people

5:16

and the planet. Kate

5:26

Rayworth, Welcome to How to Citizen. Hi.

5:29

It's a big, big pleasure to be here. I'm really

5:31

delighted. I'm very very much looking forward to this

5:33

conversation. All right, so I want to

5:35

dive in right off the bat. What is doughnut

5:37

economics. So the first thing I'm going to completely

5:40

disappoint you. There was no pastry involved, just

5:42

misdirection, false advertising,

5:44

the classic neoliberal economic

5:47

thinking already. Yeah,

5:50

See, the best donuts are conceptual.

5:53

It's just about the shape. So

5:55

if we put it in the simplest of terms, we need

5:57

to meet the needs of all people in

6:00

the means of the living planet. So

6:02

imagine a donut with a hole in the middle,

6:05

and think of humanity's use of earth resources

6:08

radiating out from the scent of the donut in

6:10

every direction. So that means that the hole in

6:12

the donut is a place where people

6:14

are left falling short on the essentials of

6:16

life. It's the place where people do not want to be

6:18

because you don't have the resources to have good

6:21

healthcare and education, decent housing,

6:23

energy, food, clean

6:25

air. You don't have political

6:27

voice, income, access to transport,

6:30

right, the essentials of life that ensure

6:32

that everybody has a life of dignity,

6:35

community, an opportunity. So

6:37

leave no one in the hole, and then

6:39

there's a big butt as we collectively

6:42

seek to meet the needs and

6:44

some of the wants of people. We use ours

6:46

resources. We transform land to grow

6:48

food, We withdraw water from lakes and rivers,

6:51

We burn fossil fuels, we cut forests,

6:53

we take fish from the sea. We start to put pressure

6:56

on our planetary home. And so just

6:58

as we want to leave no one in the all, we

7:00

also don't want to overshoot the outer crust of this

7:03

donut. Because the outer crust

7:06

is what's known as the planetary boundaries,

7:08

and these are the life supporting systems

7:10

of our planetary home. Like if you think of your body,

7:12

our bodies have a digestive system and nerveless

7:15

system, and we need to keep all of these

7:17

systems imbalance in health working

7:20

together. So our planet has the same She has

7:22

a carbon cycle, she has nutrient cycles,

7:25

she has a web of life, and we need

7:27

to keep these imbalance in working well

7:29

together. So I like to say to people, what do you think is the

7:31

shape of economic progress? Because if you

7:33

listen to an economist, if you listen

7:35

to a politician, the shape

7:37

apparently is growth

7:40

endlessly, no matter how rich nation

7:42

already is. I'm in the UK or in the US, we live

7:44

in two of the richest countries in the history of humanity,

7:47

and yet our economists, our politicians

7:50

think that the solution to all of our problems lie

7:52

in yet more growth, endlessly. There's no end

7:54

in sight. Now, there's something utterly absurd about

7:56

that, and I think we really need to take seriously

7:59

what is the shape of aggress? That is

8:01

a practical and delicious metaphor,

8:04

and it just makes sense. There's a floor below which

8:06

we don't want to fall into that inner hole. There's

8:08

a ceiling beyond which we risk

8:11

the whole system. Now, one of the things

8:13

you've done in your book is you've you've highlighted

8:15

these seven key concepts that are

8:17

designed to have us actually build this out.

8:20

You've got changing the goalpost

8:22

and shifting our perspective on what economics

8:24

actually is. You've got things like designing

8:27

to redistribute. So can you give

8:29

an overview of what these concepts are and

8:31

how you landed on these seven So

8:33

I first sketched this doughnut on a

8:36

little scrap of paper that you do ten years

8:38

ago, okay, and I was working at OXFAM

8:40

at the time when we published this discussion paper, Like

8:42

you know, well, this is an interesting idea, and it had way

8:45

more resonance in the world and traction with people

8:47

than I had possibly imagined. It was clear

8:49

that really help people empower

8:52

themselves in debate about saying this is a

8:54

vision of an economy, and now I can advocate

8:56

for really different policies, and I feel strengthened

8:59

in that. So if we put this as

9:01

the goal of what they want the economy to be, then

9:03

it invites this really exciting

9:06

question what kind of economy

9:08

would actually help get us there? And it was really

9:10

clear to me that what I didn't want to do is try and come up with

9:13

a list of policies because

9:15

that's not going to be relevant across countries,

9:17

and who knows what crisis might be around the corner

9:20

and what might happen next. So what I wanted to do is put

9:22

forward a set of principles. So the subtitle

9:24

of my book is seven Ways to Think like

9:27

a twenty first century economist, and that was really important.

9:30

It was not claiming to have defined the answer,

9:32

but it's like ways to think. What if

9:35

we become systems thinkers,

9:37

which just means we understand that things

9:39

have feedback loops, right, What if we

9:42

recognize we live in an have inherited

9:44

in economic system that's deeply divisive

9:46

through legislation, through privilege, through inheritance

9:49

captures value and opportunity in the hands of a few. So

9:52

how could we make a distributive economy

9:54

in all the different ways you could do that? To

9:56

bring it close home right to how to citizen?

9:59

What if we would to realize that the character of humanity

10:01

put the center of economic theories gives

10:04

us the most narrow version

10:07

of who we are, and we actually

10:09

need to nurture the very best

10:11

of human nature and we imagine ourselves.

10:14

Where these principles came from first was

10:16

so I studied economics at university, right, and

10:19

I was like thirty years ago, and

10:21

I was really frustrated because the issues

10:23

I cared about social justice, environmental

10:26

integrity just was on the margins of the

10:28

syllabus and you had to kind of beg

10:30

and knock on the door and try and reframe

10:32

them to make them even show up

10:35

in economics. And when I came

10:37

back to economics many many years later, I then read

10:40

all the economics I had never been taught.

10:42

So I read feminist economics, ecological

10:44

economics, complexity, institutional

10:47

behaviorally comes and there are amazing ideas there,

10:50

and I wanted to bring them together and get them to dance

10:52

on the same page. So I'm just starting

10:54

by recognizing that what I'm doing is really celebrating

10:57

the work of many diverse elders

10:59

economics elders and people who would never

11:01

have called themselves economists but have hugely

11:03

influenced these ideas. So in

11:05

one way, it's a stretch, and yet the

11:08

ideas go back a

11:10

long way. Regenerative

11:12

thinking goes back in Western tradition,

11:14

it goes back decades. In other cultural

11:17

traditions, it goes back millennia.

11:19

So is it a stretch or is it a term I

11:21

sometimes think of donate economics is a bit of a Western

11:24

mindset recovery program. Instead

11:28

of twelve steps, it's seven ways. Because

11:32

you can't just appropriate an

11:34

indigenous culture's wisdom and

11:36

say, oh, well, we'll just take that, thank you very much, to make

11:38

that us. You have to find your own way towards

11:40

the wisdom that it already frets. I think, yeah,

11:43

this new way of being, a new

11:45

way of thinking, it sounds

11:48

really optimistic, it sounds

11:50

really beautiful. And

11:52

when we talk about redistribution and collaboration,

11:56

I'm like, oh, that sounds a one more socialist,

11:58

but it's not totally a socialist

12:01

thing you're proposing. Where does this live

12:03

in the tradition? And how have you

12:05

seen people willing to break our

12:07

own sense of imagination because

12:10

it sounds so different from the way

12:12

we're used to conceiving of ourselves. Actually,

12:14

funny enough, when I came to the US in twenty seventeen,

12:16

where my book first came out, I was surprised

12:18

by how quickly people go, oh, zero communists,

12:21

that's what we do here. That's what we do here. It's a

12:23

very binary world. Your weather's here against

12:25

as your capitalist your common Yeah, I know, now,

12:27

I know. So what I aim

12:30

to do in the book and in the way I

12:32

present these ideas, if we just kind of push those old

12:34

isms aside, because we quickly talk past each

12:36

other. If five people say capitalism,

12:38

I'll bet you they don't have common definition. If

12:40

they say socialism, they don't become And

12:42

I like using a newer language, which is,

12:45

we've inherited the degenerative world, we need to

12:47

make it regenerative. We've inherited a divisive

12:49

world, we need to make it distributive. Now, what

12:52

kind of economy would have half

12:54

a chance of bringing about these dynamics.

12:56

And so far I've found that people

12:59

just go farther with you and engage more

13:01

in it without having to put

13:03

on a big label. Thank you for that. There's

13:06

one of your ways and your method about nurturing

13:08

human nature. And some

13:11

of what we've been taught is that human

13:13

nature is selfish, purely

13:15

self interested. We are these rational

13:18

economic actors out to optimize

13:21

our financially measurable

13:23

potential in the marketplace of

13:26

everything, whether it's food or ideas,

13:28

or labor or love even And

13:31

so you're proposing and reminding. I

13:33

would even say, in terms of the vision of return, that

13:35

we can be wired and are for cooperation,

13:39

mutual aid, and empathy. And

13:41

that's very much in line with how we see citizen

13:43

as a verb here. Once

13:46

we remember, right, once we're prompted

13:48

with this other vision of how we can be,

13:50

how do we bake that back into the economics,

13:53

because the way our economic system is built

13:56

only recognizes this little slice of how

13:58

we show up. First of all, I was

14:00

really fascinated when I was writing the

14:03

chapter in my book about Nurture Human Nature

14:05

to read economists

14:08

who had done research on

14:10

what effect it has on students when they're taught

14:13

the model of humanity at the center

14:15

of mains to economics. So first, the character,

14:17

as you just said, is rational economic man,

14:20

and he's never actually drawn in the textbooks.

14:22

But once I drawn the donut and I'd realized the pa of pictures,

14:24

I drew a little picture of him, you know, on toilet

14:26

doors. There's kind of men's women to that little man who

14:28

stand, so I took that the icon.

14:31

Yeah, so he looks like that. He's

14:33

a man. He's got no dependence. He's not raising

14:35

kids. He's standing alone. He's got his own opinions

14:37

and he's an independent, thank you very much. He's

14:40

got money in his hand, he's holding

14:42

a dollar sign. He's got ego

14:44

in his heart, says me, on his chest.

14:47

He's got a calculator in his head. He's constantly

14:49

calculating the prices and the opportunity costs.

14:51

He knows prices forwards and backwards and everywhere

14:54

in the future. And he's got nature at his feet.

14:56

You can imagine him standing, you know, on a

14:58

pinnacle of the living world domain beneath

15:01

him. Yeah,

15:04

and that is essentially the character

15:06

that gets written into the equations and into

15:08

the models. Now, researchers like Robert

15:10

Frank and others in the US found that

15:13

the more that students are told that

15:16

he is like us, we

15:19

actually become more like him. So from

15:21

year one to year two Tier three of their studies,

15:23

over time, students more say economic

15:25

students more say they value competition

15:28

over collaboration, They value self interest

15:31

over altruism. This is what it means to

15:33

be a good economic player. Now

15:35

that's devastating. We create

15:37

this narrow caricature

15:40

and then students actually start to mimic

15:43

him. So who we tell ourselves

15:45

we are shapes who we become. It's

15:49

predicated on that lonely man

15:52

theory of the world, which is we

15:54

need growth to provide opportunity.

15:57

That opportunity will come

16:00

at the expense of the planet.

16:02

That's just that's what we know how

16:05

to do, and we can't. We

16:07

can't meet everyone's needs

16:11

and not also throw

16:13

the planet into some disarray.

16:15

It's impossible, Kate, to meet

16:18

everyone's needs

16:20

and not like there's eight billion

16:22

people. That's a lot of needs, does

16:24

it scale? I can see someone saying

16:26

okay on a farm in Vermont, cool cool,

16:28

cool, and an old indigenous

16:31

community that's agriculturally based. Okay,

16:33

okay, But we got eight billion people who

16:35

want their iPhones, want their conveniences,

16:39

want their meals to show up ten minutes

16:41

before they order them. How

16:43

are we gonna satisfy all

16:45

of those needs and still

16:48

maintain a balance ecologically

16:50

on this planet the way you defined it? Oh?

16:53

Okay, Right, So first of all

16:55

you said everyone needs, but

16:58

then you said, like, you're gonna have an iPhone and

17:00

my meal is going to be at the door with delivery room,

17:03

and it's going to have mothers around everyone.

17:05

It's going to have my favorite kind of anti vite.

17:07

So let's just step So, what are our needs

17:10

right as humanity? And we've had

17:12

a long conversation about this internationally.

17:14

Let's go back to night

17:16

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It's

17:19

been going on and on. So we recognize

17:21

that every person on this

17:23

earth has a claim to food

17:26

and water, and education and healthcare

17:28

and shelter. Right, So there

17:30

are essential rights, there are essential needs that

17:32

need to be met so that we have the capability to

17:35

have dignity to participate

17:38

as an active citizen in society.

17:41

And I agree to have opportunities you just said

17:44

now, right now, the richest

17:46

one percent of people in the world own half

17:48

of the world's wealth. So I

17:50

don't think we can take right now as a

17:52

good indicator of whether or not we can do

17:54

this, because this is a crazy starting

17:57

point. Yeah, I

17:59

think there's such an opportunity

18:01

to say, how are we going to meet

18:04

everyone's needs? How are we going to with appropriate

18:06

technologies and smart solutions,

18:10

And there are such great ways you can do it. Let me give an example.

18:12

We need to use fresh water

18:15

to grow food. Now, historically we've

18:18

done that with spray irrigation, Like you

18:20

just have these hoses spraying all over fields

18:22

and it does massive waste of water. Take

18:25

the same hose and you punch little holes

18:27

and you have drip irrigation, precision irrigation.

18:30

You can grow so much more food with the same

18:32

amount of water, or the same amount of food with so much

18:34

less water. So technology

18:37

and governance and public

18:39

provisioning and smart

18:41

design enables us to

18:44

do so much more with few resources.

18:46

And then the economic question is a layout

18:48

back, what kind of economy will bring those

18:50

technologies into existence and make sure that they're

18:52

accessible to walk And then I'm going to go back for the

18:54

very first thing you said in that question. He said, we need

18:56

growth to have opportunity. I don't. I

18:59

don't know. I think we need opportunity to have opportunity.

19:02

And it seems like a lot of the growth that's been

19:04

going on in the world is giving a few

19:06

very rich white men a lot of opportunity, but

19:09

many, many other people are losing opportunity

19:11

of it. So I don't at all think

19:13

that growth is

19:15

tied that. I don't see evidence that growth

19:18

as we know it is tied to opportunity.

19:21

Years ago, I saw a

19:23

man speak named al Noor Lada,

19:25

and he talked about infinite economic growth

19:28

in the context of biology

19:31

and said, you know, when we have cells that grow

19:33

infinitely without end, by

19:35

definition, that's malignantly

19:37

cancerous and it destroys the host. But

19:40

when we design that into our economy, we

19:42

aspire to that. Yet

19:44

the evidence is that we're destroying the host.

19:47

And so there is something not

19:49

sane about the pursuit of

19:52

infinite growth. So I want

19:54

to dig into the lab, the

19:56

donut economics action lab.

20:00

It sounds so profound and kind of

20:02

silly at the same time. So what is it

20:04

and how did it come about? So

20:07

I see myself first and foremost as an advocate.

20:10

And when I was working at oxfand that was when I drew this

20:12

donut and the reaction to it

20:14

was amazing, and I

20:16

had a realization that the best

20:19

next act of advocacy I can do

20:21

in the world is to actually leave my job here

20:23

and go and write a book. And I published the book,

20:25

and I was just giving lots and lots

20:27

of talks, and after

20:30

talk people will come up to me and say, I love the book,

20:32

and I'm doing this. I'm a teacher. It's

20:34

not on the curriculum, but this is what I know my students

20:37

need to learn anything. Damn, I love that. Teacher

20:39

counselor's mayor starting getting such how

20:42

can I do this in my town? Can I do this my city?

20:44

Entrepreneurs? I'm taking this into my meeting community

20:47

members like, wow, people aren't doing

20:50

this. They started making funny glasses

20:52

in the shape of donuts. What would the world look like through

20:54

donut lenses? What would the world look

20:56

like through donut lenses? Delicious?

20:59

And how did that feel? Key

21:01

to see people engaging with the donut on

21:04

that level. It still

21:06

amazes me. I still have to do that Is this really

21:08

happening? Is this really happening? Am I sitting

21:10

in the European Union in a very formal assembly

21:13

of people called donuts for EU? But

21:15

also it was a wonderful affirmation

21:18

that it wasn't a completely crazy thing to call

21:20

it dont economics, because some people say, this

21:22

is a very serious model. We're talking about

21:24

the future of life on Earth. How could you name it after

21:26

American junk food? Okay?

21:29

And I know, and I'm sorry, and I tell the doctors. You

21:31

know, I say to people promised, don't eat donuts. This

21:33

is the only one that's good for us. But the

21:36

unexpected benefit of giving it this

21:38

name is that, you know, a lot of people are

21:40

intimidated by economics or disinterested

21:42

or walk away if you say, I'm an economist. But

21:45

no one's afraid of donuts. You might love them or hate them,

21:47

but you're not afraid. And it just tells you this

21:49

is a playful space. And so people showed up

21:51

and started playing Yeah.

21:53

So I realized, gosh,

21:56

this is really exciting. People are

21:58

starting to do it. To

22:00

find a way to bring them together. So

22:03

I found a fabulous co founder

22:05

called Carlotta Sam and I thought I don't

22:07

want to make the donut institute. That just sounds

22:10

heavy and ridiculous. But when I thought

22:12

of an action lab, suddenly it felt

22:14

really light and playful, and it just it

22:17

really works, because yes, it's all

22:19

about action. You know, I really believe

22:21

that twenty first century economics is going to

22:23

be practiced first and theorized

22:25

later, the theories following, but the practitioners are running

22:28

way ahead. And it's a lab because

22:30

every practice is an

22:33

experiment. It's an experiment popping

22:35

up in the middle of an old system, and not

22:37

all of them will succeed and breakthrough. So

22:39

what does it mean for a city to adapt

22:42

the donut? For example, in Amsterdam,

22:44

what changed because they said, we

22:47

want to be a donut city. Great question.

22:49

So the city of Amsterdam wanted

22:52

back in twenty twenty nineteen, wanted

22:54

to introduce a policy committing

22:56

to become a circular city, meaning that

22:58

it would be a city where sources don't get used

23:01

up and thrown away, that they get used

23:03

again and again. And they told

23:05

us, you know, we were beginning to think about kind of

23:07

creating a circle economy in a very technical

23:10

materials way, and we gradually

23:12

realize it's not just about material

23:14

flows. It's about people, it's

23:16

about jobs, it's about social equity, it's

23:18

about transforming how we live as well.

23:21

So they adopted the donut

23:23

as like the vision level of

23:25

their policy. The aim is for Amsterdam

23:27

to be a thriving, inclusive, regenerative

23:30

city for all residents

23:33

within planetary boundaries. And they

23:35

followed up with goals, so saying, we aim

23:38

to be a circular

23:40

city by twenty fifty. And I love that.

23:43

That's like Kennedy the mood shot. Right, we're going to get

23:45

to them, and we don't know how we're going to get there. The point

23:47

is to figure it out by trying, but to

23:49

be fifty percent circle by twenty

23:51

thirty. They've given themselves that goal.

23:54

Now that's that's more exciting to me because

23:56

it's within seven

23:58

years now and that's

24:01

a significant shift. So

24:03

they had these ambitions and then they said, right, we're going to start

24:05

exploring this through housing

24:08

and construction, through textiles

24:10

who knew Amsterdam is a denim hotspot,

24:13

and through food and said, let's start

24:15

experimenting in these areas. For example, in the city,

24:18

there's one district where every

24:20

building that's built there has to be a

24:22

circular building, which means it's made of materials

24:24

that have been or can be or will be reused

24:27

and reusable, and that just changes the way architects

24:30

design. When the regulations were first introduced,

24:32

at first it's like, you know, more

24:34

rules, But then they said, once we actually

24:37

took into account what would it mean

24:39

to design in a circular way, you suddenly

24:41

find you're at the forefront

24:43

of your field and you're

24:46

surrounded by cities like

24:48

yourself who are going to need to do this too. And

24:50

suddenly you find yourself at the front and that you're

24:52

going to be able to teach and get contracts

24:54

and skills and spread that information to

24:56

others. So one interesting

24:59

thing that's happened is the city Amsterdam have had elections,

25:01

right and in fact, the person who was really known

25:03

as the champion of bringing the donut into the city

25:05

of Amsterdam, she wasn't reelected.

25:08

So you think, oh, is this going to die now?

25:10

But there are new city politicians elected

25:12

at politicians and civil servants

25:14

working within the city who are committed

25:17

to it, and that's been really interesting for us to

25:19

see. I'll say one more thing about amsterdamn

25:21

When I first was going there in like twenty seventeen,

25:24

twenty eighteen, when my book first came out. The

25:26

places I was going were public

25:28

halls and theaters in the city center, the kind

25:31

of the place where all the tourists go, and I was getting talks

25:33

in front of an audience. And last

25:35

time I went, I was out in two of the neighborhoods

25:38

where tourists never go. Lower income

25:40

neighborhoods are really truly multicultural

25:43

neighborhoods in community centers,

25:46

working on the nitty gritty of how is

25:48

this market going to reduce the

25:50

waste that's generated here every day when we sell

25:52

tons of fruit. It was a beautiful

25:55

experience of this idea

25:57

has landed and that's a really symbolic mark.

26:00

Yeah, and I should say the city

26:03

government of adoptive. But what's really exciting as

26:05

well, coming back to how to citizen, a

26:07

whole network of community organizations in Amsterdam

26:10

said, well, we can see that what we're

26:12

already doing is helping

26:14

bring our city into the donuts. So they created the Amsterdam

26:17

Donut Coalition, which is a civic network,

26:20

and they every year whole Amsterdam

26:22

Donut Days saying how

26:24

are we doing? I love the way you're smiling.

26:27

That's the way a smile is like, is that is really happening?

26:29

There's a what it's just it's called

26:31

donut. Who can be mad? You

26:33

know what I mean? Like if it's socialism

26:35

Day, you're going to draw a line in the sand, and

26:37

then some people will be very excited and some people

26:40

will be very annoyed. But it's donut

26:42

Day, which is just like a great sugary

26:45

trojan horse for kind of new ideas

26:47

to find their way in. I'm glad you went

26:50

to the coalition because I think the impetus

26:52

for the first example, it sounded

26:55

top down, like the government declared, the

26:57

mayor, you know, the city leader said we want

27:00

them to be and it kind of to

27:02

borrow another old economic we have thinking trickle

27:04

down to the people, but you

27:06

also have folks in community. It

27:08

sounds like bubbling these things

27:10

up. And so, in terms of whatever you've seen

27:12

in the US, are there other ways

27:15

that people have taken bites of the donut

27:17

and implemented them in their neighborhood, community,

27:20

city levels that give us even

27:22

further ideas of what that change

27:24

actually looks like. And it's new in the

27:26

US, it's been happening, even though donuts is

27:29

our thing, even though oh there's so much

27:31

to kin, there's so much you

27:33

have a National Donut Day. I mean, I

27:35

just can't wait till you

27:37

know national whole

27:39

other meaning no. So in the

27:42

US, right where you are, there's

27:44

CALDEC California Donut Economics

27:47

Coalition, And in fact, they were one of

27:49

the first groups to form when

27:51

we launched Donate Economics. So it's a group

27:53

of volunteers who just joined

27:55

our community on our platform don't Economics.

27:57

Anyone could just join to be a member with got

28:00

a map, who's nearly Oh look there's

28:02

fifteen people. Wow, wow,

28:04

let's connect. Or they can post an event saying

28:06

hi, as these guys did, Hi, We're in California,

28:09

anybody else out there? Should we get together online?

28:11

What do we want to do together? So they got together

28:13

and they want to change the narrative

28:15

about the economy. What is a thriving

28:18

economy in California? To make

28:20

visible ongoing projects because

28:23

again, like in Amsterdam, there's so much already

28:25

happening. We can weep over what's

28:27

going wrong in our economies and we can point

28:30

to what's already in motion and

28:32

help piece together those many fragments

28:35

of a new next economy. They're

28:37

emerging. If we make them visible, we get more of a

28:39

sense of it. And then I'm going to jump

28:41

to another one, which is in North

28:43

Carolina, So the Swanna Noah

28:46

Watershed. Many of these groups are forming

28:48

around a city or a town or a

28:50

state, and this is one that's formed like a bioregion,

28:53

formed around a watershed, which is profoundly

28:56

natural. And so they've come together.

28:58

They said, Yeah,

29:00

working with nature is telling us the boundaries,

29:03

not where some colonial with

29:05

append or a nice straight line. And this is your

29:07

about no nature saying this is a watershed,

29:09

so this is a coherent ecosystem, right,

29:12

So how do we restore the ecosystem

29:15

of this place and respect the health of the whole

29:17

planet? Yeah, and how do we bring

29:19

about social justice in this place? They

29:21

are showing through solar projects, through

29:23

tiny homes, through get out the vote,

29:26

through investing in minority enterprises, moving

29:28

capital to people who have been historically marginalized

29:31

from it. So it's wonderful

29:33

to see it. It's just starting in the use. There's

29:35

a lot more have been happening in Europe, and I think

29:37

it's great proof of the power of peers

29:39

per inspiration. So like when Amsterdam

29:42

began, within six weeks Copenhagen City

29:44

Council said what we want some of that, we're going to do that. People

29:46

are inspired by people like themselves. They can

29:49

see themselves in that story. The

29:51

idea of seeing yourself in the story,

29:54

and even the examples you've shared, you

29:56

know, we're in a season where the story has

29:58

been about inflation, has been about

30:01

promises of growth and a certain

30:03

narrow view of what economic

30:05

life looks or feels like. Do

30:08

you have or have people who've picked up

30:11

this approach, Do they have a narrative

30:13

strategy as well, in terms of working with

30:15

media to tell different economic

30:18

stories that kind of recognize

30:20

more of our humanity, not just this

30:22

rational man we're all hiding inside

30:24

and letting drive the vehicles of our lives.

30:26

How important is that work? And have

30:28

you seen people explicitly say we

30:31

have to talk differently too and

30:33

journalistically cover this differently? So

30:36

much so those two The

30:38

first one is the growth narrative,

30:41

and people often say, well, can't

30:43

we growth is good, so can't we just reclaim growth

30:45

and say want something else to grow? And I don't

30:47

agree with that, because I very much agree with

30:49

what you said earlier. In nature,

30:52

nothing succeeds by trying

30:54

to grow forever. And if within

30:56

our own bodies something tries to grow,

30:58

we understand that as cancer and we go

31:01

very quiet. So why can't

31:03

we take from our bodily understanding

31:05

to our human body, to our planetary body

31:07

that same understanding in nature

31:09

in our children. In the plants we grow,

31:12

things grow, and then they grow

31:14

up, and that's what means they mature. Like I

31:16

have fourteen year old teenagers, right, they're both now

31:19

taller than me. They've been growing two inches

31:21

a year, and in fact, this is the first year they grew slightly

31:23

less than two inches, because they're starting to top

31:25

Yeah, few, is that? Thank you very much? Few?

31:28

Because if they carried on growing two inches a

31:30

year, like people want the economy to grow two percent a

31:32

year. And by the way, that compounds, my kids aren't compounding.

31:34

They're just two inches, they would literally

31:37

within a decade they could not come in

31:39

my home, literally and metaphorically,

31:41

they would not belong in my home. They could not sit at my

31:43

table. They would be monstrous.

31:47

So things that we care about

31:49

and love, we

31:51

want to see them grow. Yes, it's a wonderful, healthy

31:53

phase of life, but then they must grow up.

31:56

So for me, it's really important to reframe

31:59

that and to talk about thriving that

32:02

is health. But can I come back to the other one

32:04

about who we are? Right? So,

32:06

economics, when it's taught, they say, welcome to economics.

32:09

Here's the plan and demand, here's the market, right, and it

32:11

puts the market in our vision, which means we're immediately

32:14

who we are is consumers

32:16

or producers, were either shopping or

32:18

working, or shopping or working or shopping or working.

32:21

Right, But then let's think of ourselves in

32:23

relation to not just the market, but

32:25

in the state. And in relation to the state,

32:27

we may be a public servant, a teacher, a doctor,

32:29

regulator. You may be a resident or a

32:31

citizen, a voter, a protest

32:34

all crucial roles that we can play

32:36

in relation to the state, and we should

32:38

recognize that we inhabit all of these, but

32:41

just this marketing state. That's the sort of

32:43

twentieth century ideological boxing

32:45

match of economics, and most economics

32:48

goes like, are you a free market let's say, fair

32:50

capitalist or your state's loving socialist?

32:52

You commit you right, and it's

32:54

so boring, and it

32:57

completely misses two other fundamental

33:00

ways that we provision for our needs and wants. It's

33:02

not just through the market, it's not just through public goods.

33:04

Let's start where we all start every day in

33:07

the household. That's the space of

33:09

unpaid care. That's where

33:11

we may be a parent, a partner, a relative, a child,

33:13

caring free each other. Our

33:15

children are parents, sometimes both. This

33:18

is the place of the cooking, washing and cleaning,

33:20

sweeping, raising the kids. And that's traditionally

33:23

the domain of women, and it's traditionally

33:25

unpaid and underrecognized and overexploited.

33:28

And so we must also name that space

33:31

the space of care. And the fourth

33:33

one I want to add the commons right

33:36

where we get together, not through the market,

33:39

not through the state, but as a community. We

33:41

come together and we co create goods and services

33:43

that we value. And it might be a neighborhood

33:45

garden on the corner of your block, it might be

33:47

Wikipedia, it might be a singing

33:49

group, a reading group. And

33:52

it's not a free for all. We follow rules together.

33:54

There are norms of how we behave, and if you

33:56

don't behave, you'll be told off or

33:59

punished. Or you might even be told to leave.

34:01

So I often show these four forms. There's the market

34:03

and the state, and the household and the commons,

34:06

and I invite people just to describe

34:08

themselves. What have you done today? Oh, I've

34:10

been a consumer because I bought something. I'm a producer

34:13

here, I am at work. I'm a parent and a child

34:15

actually I called my mom. And I've been in

34:17

the commons because I'm going to my singing group tonight.

34:19

And I've been a voter and a resident.

34:22

Wow, I'm weaving through all

34:24

these identities all the time, So

34:26

I think it's so important to name them

34:28

and then ask ourselves what kind of values and

34:31

norms underpin each one of

34:33

those different ways. But

34:37

if the journalism about the economy

34:40

solely focuses on the one quarter

34:43

of our presence as members

34:45

of a market, that members of a state,

34:47

not members of a household, and members of a commons,

34:50

then it's actually that complete journalism.

34:53

Yeah, for us as practitioners of just living

34:55

people, it's kind of

34:57

looked back over the week. Was I good

35:00

member of the commons this week? It was I could

35:02

remember my household this week? And not merely

35:04

you know, we have this end of your tax ritual.

35:07

But do we have an end of your commons ritual? And

35:09

if your state rich or and if your household ritual.

35:11

So there's just there's new practices that emerge

35:14

in new ways of talking and writing, and

35:16

videograms have to jump in. I love the idea that

35:18

you're like, oh, I've done my tax return. Oh

35:20

but I haven't done my commentary. Yeah, but

35:22

but doing your commons return should be a celebration,

35:25

right, Yes, I need to return to the commons.

35:27

Right, I did my tax return, but I'm gonna return to the comments.

35:29

Yeah that I'm gonna want like four donut

35:32

days a year. It's

35:34

a quarterly celebration after

35:41

the break. Kate Rayworth on a

35:43

time when the donut didn't quite pan out?

35:48

Are there places where donut economics

35:51

didn't quite work the way you'd

35:53

hoped it would as someone tried to implement some

35:55

piece of it. No one has ever asked me before

35:58

good. Yeah, So

36:02

what did happen quite early on was a lot of businesses

36:05

so, oh, we would love to be a donut business, or

36:07

we think we are doing a business. Can we be a don a business? Can

36:09

we put that on a website? And I just thought,

36:11

whoa, this could get greenwashed, very

36:14

married donut washing. Yeah, donut

36:17

washing. So we actually

36:19

closed the space for business for a long

36:21

time because we didn't want it to be done

36:24

in a way. We thought, oh, that's not what we had in mind,

36:26

because if it gets donut washed and greenwashed,

36:28

then the concept gets really denigrated

36:31

for many people. Yeah,

36:33

and there's a lot of incentive for a business, as

36:36

we've seen with d EI

36:38

work, as we've seen with climate

36:41

friendly and carbon zero,

36:43

net zero sustainable. Yes, of

36:45

an organic to some degree, Yes it's

36:48

pr but it doesn't reflect the practices

36:50

underneath. So are you still in that posture

36:52

of businesses can't really brand

36:55

themselves as donut businesses or or where are

36:57

you now? Oh, we're definitely in a place

36:59

that you can't brand yourselves as donut business But what

37:02

we are in and now is we've been working with

37:04

a group of companies over the last year and

37:06

a half and we've created at all and

37:08

we welcome any company to use

37:11

it internally and explore it. So we say, but

37:13

if you want to talk about your business

37:15

and the donut, please don't come out and say you're a

37:17

donut business. But we invite

37:19

you to tell us. And this is where we

37:21

focus on the deep design of your business

37:24

because here's the thing. We think that in the

37:26

twenty first century, the most important design

37:28

is not going to be the design of your products. I mean that

37:30

really matters, right, whether it's made from

37:33

regenerative and sustainable materials,

37:35

whether it's ethical in its supply

37:37

chain, and its payment and care of everybody

37:39

who was involved in making that product. But

37:41

what really matters beyond

37:44

the design of the products is the design

37:46

of the business itself. So number

37:48

one, what is its purpose? Why

37:51

does it even exist? What is it in service of in

37:53

the world too? How

37:56

does it network? So all the relationships with its

37:58

employees, it's supplies, customers,

38:00

its industry, allies in government.

38:03

Does it live out its purpose through its

38:05

networks or are they quite exploitative?

38:07

Three? How is it governed? Who is in the room when decisions

38:10

are made, who has voice in those decisions making? What

38:13

are the metrics of success and how a middle managers

38:15

incentivized? Does it really line up? And how does it reflect

38:17

your purpose? And now we're going deeper. So we've gone

38:20

purpose networks, governors. Now we go deep to

38:22

ownership. How is this company owned

38:24

Is it owned by the employees,

38:27

by a founding entrepreneur, by a family for

38:29

three hundred years. Is it owned by venture

38:31

capital, by shareholders, by the state as a

38:33

cooperative. Because all these different

38:35

ownership models take us to the fifth one,

38:37

how is it financed? Where is the money

38:40

coming from and what is that money expecting

38:42

and demanding and extracting. How much of the profits

38:45

are we invested in your purpose and how

38:47

much are taken out for the owners of the company.

38:49

Now, if we take these five design trates

38:51

of purpose, networks, governance, ownership,

38:53

and finance, it tells us so

38:55

much about what any company can

38:58

be and do in the world. You've

39:00

mentioned tools twice now, once

39:02

with regard to businesses that want to have

39:05

this deep internal design, and another for cities

39:08

or communities that want to roll these out. Do

39:10

these tools have more specific names or places we

39:12

can find them. I just want to make sure that our listeners

39:14

know where to go to find these and so

39:16

they can start using them. Yes. So

39:18

the tool for cities and places, it's a

39:20

tool called Donut Unrolled and

39:23

it's on our platform at donut economics

39:25

dot org. Oh, it's that English spelling

39:27

dug h and ut so

39:30

Donut Economics dot org and

39:32

then for companies, it's a new tool called

39:34

Donut Design for Business, also

39:36

on our platform. So let's

39:39

imagine a world where we've unrolled

39:41

donuts all across the planet and

39:43

businesses are more deeply and conscientiously

39:46

designed to allow us to thrive within

39:48

these boundaries. How does the world

39:51

operate then? And I'm thinking

39:53

of practical things like do we still have a stock market?

39:55

Are credit cards products that

39:58

we know and use on a

40:00

regular basis? Do we have

40:02

poverty in this future?

40:04

Down that world? There's a three great questions,

40:06

So I'm going to go in reverse order. We don't have poverty

40:09

because by definition, no one

40:11

is falling short on the essentials of life. No one

40:14

is left in that hole. So we have figured

40:16

out a way to provision for the essential

40:18

needs of everyone. But the other thing you

40:20

said, it's really interesting. You said, I'm going to go for some basics

40:23

like will we be using credit cards? And will

40:25

there be a stock market? You kind of

40:27

put your finger right on it. What

40:29

does this mean for finance? Yeah,

40:32

finance is designed the moment

40:34

with an inbuilt expectation

40:37

and demand for a return. It's

40:39

designed completely

40:41

different to everything else on

40:43

this living planet, which, because

40:46

of the second law of thermodynamics, deteriorates,

40:50

dies, rots rusts.

40:54

But money, money accumulates undestly,

40:56

and there's a deep I mean, I can't answer

40:58

your question as a super practical level because I

41:00

don't know, but I

41:02

can answer it at a big existential level. What

41:04

would mean for money to be designed

41:07

so that it actually worked with the

41:09

cycles of the living world rather than how this utterly

41:11

opposite design was expected to accumulate

41:14

endlessly. And it's a really big question,

41:16

and I wish this is what students in

41:18

business schools and in economics departments

41:20

were grappling with rather than

41:23

just taking well, of course, the design of money is this

41:25

way, and shareholders expectations and needs it that

41:27

way, and so we need businesses that cut those corners to

41:29

meet them. So we need to flip it on its head. How

41:31

does money come in service to life rather than

41:33

life serving money? I

41:36

am very glad you name that.

41:38

It's something that I have conversations

41:41

about in my own house with my partner Elizabeth,

41:43

who's an EP on this show, and a company that wants

41:45

to do good. But so I had to exit to the markets.

41:48

Is going to be pulled in a direction and finance

41:51

that bottom layer that you shared. Even

41:53

in terms of business design, where does the money come from?

41:55

If we practiced more donut economics,

41:58

how could that help us citizen?

42:00

How could that support small

42:03

d democracy in ways that help us thrive?

42:05

Dont economics will make us remember every

42:07

day that I move in the market,

42:10

and in the state, and in the household, in the commons.

42:12

So yeah, maybe a customer and I'm a

42:14

career and a child, and I'm a commoner,

42:17

and I need to develop all

42:20

the values and skills and attributes to

42:22

do well in all of these So it makes me care

42:24

about these different ways too.

42:27

So don't economics brings us to this

42:29

question of distributive design. So how

42:31

can we create that rich life of

42:33

democratic engagement, democratic

42:35

enterprise, and democratic design of the places we

42:37

live? How can we ensure that we invest

42:39

in the health and education opportunity of every

42:42

person? And donuts help us answer

42:44

those questions. I love it. Thank you.

42:47

If you were called on as you were

42:49

about to be, to define citizen

42:51

as a verb, what would it mean to you? How

42:53

would you define it? I would say be an action.

42:56

You know sometimes people say to me, oh, I love your optimism,

42:58

and I'm like, I didn't say that, And actually,

43:00

don't be an optimist if that makes you relax.

43:03

Oh we've got this sorted. People from ingenious,

43:05

we're inventive. Stop worrying. No

43:08

no, no, no, no, it's not going to get sort. But

43:10

also, don't be a pessimist if it makes you give up, and it

43:12

makes you say it's too late, and it's too hardware,

43:14

too many, it's too unequal, it's too difficult, because

43:17

by giving up, you'll make it true. Yeah,

43:19

be in action. And to me, when I hear that

43:21

word citizen, I think it calls

43:23

us into actions. So just ask yourself,

43:25

how do I travel and eat

43:28

and bank and

43:30

keep my home? And how do I invest

43:32

and diverst and protest and volunteer,

43:35

and how do I inspire? And how do I tell to

43:38

me? That is how to citizen?

43:40

Right on, Kate Rayworth,

43:42

You've been fantastic. Thank you.

43:45

It was one thing to watch you do the Ted talk. It's

43:47

another to engage more directly with you. And

43:49

I'm so glad to see how far these

43:51

ideas have come since I saw you share them

43:54

on that stage, and that people are unrolling the

43:56

doughnut all over the world. We're

43:58

going to shift to our live audience QNA,

44:01

and I've got to start there.

44:03

You are welcome to the stage, brother Wesley,

44:06

get to see you. Tell us your name, where

44:08

you're at geographically, if you're cool sharing, and

44:10

go ahead and hit us with your comment

44:12

end or question. My name's Wesley Faulkner.

44:15

I'm currently in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. My

44:18

question is that if we move to a more

44:20

interconnected, circular, multiple

44:23

beneficiary economy, we're not all

44:26

altruistic. Some of us don't

44:28

necessarily feel that they need

44:30

to give as well as received, and

44:32

so they try to hoard. What is your enforcement

44:35

models? And if there is like

44:37

a rogue actor in this web of interconnective

44:40

economies, how does it self heal or

44:42

how does it repair? Well, that's a great

44:45

question, and the first thing it makes me think of Wesley's

44:47

You know, people always say make sure you don't design

44:50

for your five percent of fears,

44:52

that you design for the ninety five percent

44:54

of possibility. But you also have

44:56

to design to make sure that systems

44:59

don't get co opted or free

45:01

ridden or abused by that, because

45:03

that will undermine the whole. So

45:06

it's not about creating, for example,

45:08

businesses and enterprises that are just altruistic

45:11

and always really really nice and doing good. It's

45:13

about structuring them and designing them

45:16

so that there are boundaries

45:18

that prevent us from giving

45:20

into that worst attribute. I suppose

45:23

we can design to lock ourselves

45:26

in, to force ourselves to be free,

45:28

as Jean Jacques Rousseau would say, were forced to be free

45:30

because we've designed out the possibility

45:32

of giving into our weak

45:35

moment of cashing the whole thing in. And

45:37

I think this is the frontier of enterprise

45:40

design. Like Patagonia, many people know

45:42

it's no longer owned by the founder who

45:44

could have one day said our heck, it's been fun, but

45:46

I'm just going to cash it all in. Now now

45:49

created steward ownership, where now

45:51

it's held by an organization

45:53

that locking in the mission and ensuring

45:55

that's how and that's totally separated from dividend

45:58

right. So I think we can design enterprises

46:01

that hold us to the best

46:03

standards that we wanted to hold ourselves into.

46:05

I'm going to share a question on behalf of someone.

46:07

This is Sarah Hughes, who asks

46:10

which applications of donut economics

46:12

give you the most cause for hope.

46:15

So the number one thing that goes to

46:17

me cause for hope is just that amazing

46:19

creativity that bubbles up the connections.

46:22

That ingenuity

46:24

and creativity and persistence

46:26

of people to keep on reimagining.

46:28

That thrills me. Kate, You've been very

46:30

generous with your answers, your thoughtfulness,

46:32

and of course your time. You're helping liberate

46:35

us from a pretty narrow existence.

46:38

Very grateful for it. Thanks for playing with us, Thanks

46:40

for dancing with these donuts with us. Really

46:42

appreciate your time, your contributions and

46:44

helping us citizen. Thank you so much,

46:46

and bring on next National

46:49

Doughnut Day. Yes, let's

46:51

do that one. Let's do that one. I

47:00

just love how Kate and the Donut

47:02

Economics Action Lab are open

47:04

ended in their reproach. They create

47:06

tools and offer support, but at the end of

47:08

the day, they trust the people on the

47:10

ground. Remember Adrian Marie

47:13

Brown in our very first episode this season, trust

47:15

the people and they become trustworthy.

47:17

I feel like Kate's doing that. We've

47:20

been talking this season about building a culture

47:23

of democracy, a dope for it,

47:26

and I don't think we can do that without

47:28

also changing the economic

47:30

environment that creates that culture. So

47:33

much of what we take as day to day is

47:35

driven by economic interests. So

47:38

let's change those interests. Let's make them

47:40

sweeter. And

47:44

now it's time for some actions. As

47:46

always, you can find these at how to citizen

47:48

dot com and we've rouped them into three

47:50

categories. First up, internal

47:53

reflection. Can you live a

47:55

circular donut life? I

47:58

want you to identify what you

48:00

truly need to live and

48:03

then what you need to thrive. Do

48:05

you have those needs met right now? What

48:08

would you do with your time and your

48:11

energy if you didn't feel the need

48:13

to earn and spend more year

48:15

after year? Next

48:18

category, become more informed.

48:20

Let's digest some donuts. I

48:23

want you to check out Kate's Ted talk

48:25

from twenty eighteen, which I got to

48:27

experience live. It's

48:29

amazing. Also read

48:31

her book Donut Economics, Seven

48:33

Ways to Think like a twenty first century Economist.

48:36

It's available in our online bookstore

48:39

at bookshop dot org, slash shop

48:41

slash how to Citizen, and some of those

48:43

proceeds they support local independent

48:45

bookshops. So we're trying to be circular

48:47

ourselves, all right. Our last category,

48:50

publicly participate. Let's

48:53

find or start some donuts near

48:55

us. I want us all to go to the

48:57

Donut Economics action Lab community

49:00

at www dot donut economics

49:03

dot org. That's dug in

49:05

ut now. They've got all sorts

49:08

of things on this site. A membership map

49:10

which shows groups or networks near

49:12

you that you can join. For Rust in California,

49:15

it's cal Deck. But you can also do

49:17

other things like read firsthand experiences

49:19

from people all over the world who are

49:21

putting the donut into practice. If

49:23

you don't see something close to you, start

49:26

an event or an action in your area, put

49:28

it on the map yourself and check out

49:30

the tools Kate mentioned Donut Unrolled

49:33

and Donut Designed for Business. Will

49:35

link them in the show notes. If you

49:37

take any of these actions, please

49:39

brag about it online and use the hashtag

49:42

how to Citizen. Also tag our

49:44

Instagram how do Citizen. I

49:47

am always online and I really do see

49:49

your messages, so send them. You can

49:51

also visit our website howard is citizen

49:53

dot com, which has all of our shows,

49:55

full transcripts, actions, and

49:57

more. Finally, see

50:00

this episode show notes for resources,

50:02

actions, and more ways to connect. How

50:05

to Citizen with barrettun Day is a production

50:07

of iHeartRadio Podcasts and Row

50:09

Home Productions. Our executive producers

50:12

are Me barrettun Day Thurston and

50:14

Elizabeth Stewart. Our lead producer

50:17

is Ali Graham, Our associate producer

50:19

is Donia abdel Hamid. Alex

50:22

Lewis is our managing producer, and John

50:24

Myers is our executive editor. Our

50:26

mix engineer is Justin Berger. Original

50:29

music by Andrew Eapen with additional

50:31

music by Blue Dot Sessions, and our

50:34

audience engagement fellows are Jasmine

50:36

Lewis and Gabbie Rodriguez. Special

50:38

thanks to Joel Smith from iHeartRadio and

50:41

Leila Biena. Next

50:50

time on how to Citizen Kate's

50:53

theory of donut economics pushes

50:55

the bounds of our imagination. It

50:58

asks us to play an experiment

51:00

with new ways of being and new ways

51:02

of relating to each other. Our next

51:04

guest taps into that same energy,

51:07

but this time in the context of technology.

51:10

We are, in many ways living in a eugenics

51:12

imagination, a techno utopian

51:15

imagination. We're living in imagination

51:17

not of our own design, and so

51:19

imaginations can be corrupting and

51:21

limiting. And we don't have to wait to

51:23

be billionaires to be able to create

51:26

something new. Ruha

51:28

Benjamin Princeton Professor and

51:30

founding director of the Ida B. Wells

51:33

Just Data Lab on how justice

51:36

begins with imagination, Row

51:43

home productions