0:15

Pushkin. As

0:20

you'll know by now, we made

0:22

a series to investigate where

0:24

power lies in the porn industry. This

0:27

episode, like all the others, contains

0:29

adult themes, including references

0:32

to disturbing and illegal content.

0:39

Around two years ago, I

0:42

discovered that the world's biggest porn

0:44

company had a secret owner, a

0:47

man who lived like a shadow for nearly

0:49

a decade. Finding

0:52

him turned out to be my

0:54

gateway into the maze of the pornography

0:56

business. The discovery

0:58

that set us off to report on four decades

1:01

of breakneck change in the industry, and

1:04

when you boil it down, each

1:06

era involves money moving from

1:08

one wealthy pornographer to

1:10

another. But today thanks

1:13

are different. With platforms

1:16

such as Only Fans, it has never

1:18

been easier for performers to shoot

1:20

content on their own terms

1:22

and sell it straight to fans on

1:25

demand, which yes,

1:28

equals more money for them, So

1:30

all good, right, Not so fast.

1:34

I specialize mostly in fetish stuff,

1:36

so financial domination just

1:39

bitchy braddy stuff. That's

1:41

Ali Knox. She's creative

1:43

and bright, like many performers

1:45

we've met in the series, and to

1:47

make a living, she hasn't just

1:50

relied on being a Dominatrix. She

1:52

has carved out other personas too,

1:55

thank you for being here playing with me today,

2:00

So I thought I tease you a little today, to

2:02

play a little bit. Fans

2:06

also love to watch Alie smoke weed.

2:09

Would she buys legally at her local dispensary

2:11

in Las Vegas. She could make her

2:13

own videos smoking weed, and

2:16

she had platforms where she could sell

2:18

them. In her words, she

2:20

was sovereign and when we say

2:23

her, fans loved it. Ali

2:25

can make around a thousand dollars

2:27

a month reselling mostly

2:29

old videos of her getting stoned,

2:32

or she could until payments

2:34

companies got cold feet. A

2:37

few months ago, probably January

2:40

February. I started noticing that my videos

2:42

were being rejected. So if I would upload something,

2:44

the platform would say, no, you can't have this,

2:47

you had drugs in it, or you had smoking. We don't

2:49

allow this anymore, or you violated the terms and

2:51

why. It took her quite

2:53

a lot of digging around, but in

2:56

the end, one of the platforms she used

2:58

most got back to her. They

3:00

were scared of losing access to

3:03

the big credit card networks. I

3:06

can't put any videos of me smoking

3:08

weed on the internet any or MasterCard

3:10

has come through and said that there can be no drug use, even

3:12

though again it's legal. This

3:14

might not sound like such a big deal. Portant

3:17

performers have for years not been

3:19

allowed to drink alcohol in their films. This

3:22

was surely just another

3:24

one of those rules, a way to tighten

3:27

up standards and protect people on

3:29

set. But for Ali,

3:32

losing a big chunk of her livelihood

3:34

didn't feel like added security.

3:37

So now if I can't do that, I gotta go find where

3:39

I'm going to make that thousand dollars. Because my

3:41

mortgage hasn't changed, my car payments

3:43

haven't changed. So am I going to have to go to

3:45

the street? Am I going to have to escort?

3:47

Am I still going to have to start crossing on my boundaries? And

3:49

all of those things happened when credit card

3:52

processing fucks with our income.

3:54

What's so odd about Ali's

3:56

situation is that it comes

3:58

after she found a degree of independence.

4:02

She could make and sell her own content

4:05

just as long as she had a payment

4:07

channel. I had no idea when I got in the

4:09

industry that my biggest, my

4:13

biggest hurdle was going to be like how do I

4:15

get paid? I thought I was going to

4:17

meet a crazy agent or I was going to

4:19

be unsafe on a porn set, all the things that people

4:21

tell you, I never knew that my biggest risk was going to

4:23

be how I can pay my bills. She

4:26

is trying to use crypto, but

4:29

it's tough. She first has

4:31

to convince people to use it, which can

4:33

take days, then arrange for the payment,

4:36

then wait fifteen minutes or so

4:38

to confirm the transaction. It's

4:41

far from ideal for impulse

4:43

purchases. And this

4:46

is what Ali Knox has in common with

4:48

the biggest porn companies in the world.

4:51

It doesn't matter if you're the owner

4:53

of porn Hub or one woman

4:55

enterprise. The Visa and MasterCard

4:58

networks can hobble your

5:00

business. Payment companies,

5:03

in the end set the limits

5:05

of how any porn business can

5:07

make money. So

5:14

who are the people taking

5:16

these kinds of decisions? Who

5:18

decides what everybody from

5:20

Alley to the owners of the biggest

5:22

porn sites in the world can put

5:25

on the Internet. In

5:27

our final episode, we

5:29

pull back the curtain and meet

5:32

the real rulers of porn. I'm

5:36

Patricia Nelson, I'm Alex

5:38

Barker from Pushkin Industries

5:41

and the Financial Times. This

5:43

is Hot Money

6:15

Act one the Windowless

6:17

Room.

6:23

In previous episodes, we explained

6:26

Visa and master Card were powerful

6:28

enough to cripple Pornhub and mind

6:31

Geek, and how payment

6:33

networks, day by day influence

6:36

what can be made on a commercial porn

6:38

set. The real mystery to

6:40

us was how did they

6:42

get into a position like this. It's

6:45

not like these payment companies want

6:47

to be seen as pawn regulators. They

6:50

didn't ask for the job, and they don't

6:52

like talking about it. Both companies

6:55

declined to do an interview with us, but

6:59

we did manage to track down two

7:01

guys who used to be on the inside.

7:04

Two guys who between them, spent

7:06

a total of thirty years at Visa.

7:10

First meet a dapper suite

7:12

called Stanley Skogland I

7:16

was the enforcer of Visas rules

7:18

for a number of years.

7:21

Stanley In left Visa around

7:23

a decade ago, but he

7:25

witnessed the crucial

7:27

period for our story, the moment

7:30

that Visa and master Card became

7:32

the reluctant rulers of porn land.

7:35

How step by step the companies

7:38

waded into porn regulation. It

7:43

started with the explosion of the Internet.

7:46

Payments suddenly went from in person

7:49

transactions to virtual ones.

7:51

They relied on trust, on everybody

7:54

playing by the rules, and

7:56

in the early days, pawn was

7:58

the big test. It wasn't

8:01

just the credit card scammers. People

8:03

would pay for pawn and then if

8:05

their partner found the credit card bill, a

8:08

lot of them were denial knowledge

8:10

and demand a refund. Porn

8:13

was a hot topic, not from a moral

8:15

point of view, but because it was so

8:17

desirable. But also people didn't

8:20

want to get caught

8:22

using pornography. That's why it

8:25

became a big thing, you know, from a

8:27

fraud perspective. So the banks

8:29

then took that to VA

8:32

said you have to do something about this. This has

8:34

to stop because we're inundated. In

8:36

the early two thousands,

8:39

Stanley reckons porn made up

8:41

roughly ten to fifteen percent

8:44

Visa's online transaction volumes. It

8:47

was too big to ignore, and

8:50

along with the fraud, Visa

8:52

and MasterCard realized they

8:55

had to work out ways to deal with content

8:57

too, the really bad

9:00

stuff like videos

9:02

of child abuse. For some

9:04

reason, those people who

9:07

are interested in that, they

9:09

found the Internet a very useful place very

9:12

early on. Unfortunately,

9:14

it would always be clandestine,

9:16

it would never be obviously child

9:19

pawn, you know, inc come here and buy

9:21

your images. So it was quite deceptive.

9:24

I would say. It meant VISA

9:26

had to build up its intelligence, find

9:29

some way to track the Internet

9:31

and the site selling pawn. But

9:34

who was going to do that well?

9:37

In the mid nineties, the man

9:39

in charge of risk at VISA was

9:41

a well regarded former FBI

9:44

agent called Dick

9:46

Held. And no, Dick

9:49

Held wasn't his cover name. Dick

9:52

Held really was the guy who

9:55

started to figure out how to

9:57

regulate Internet porn. There

10:00

was no obvious solution. Visa's

10:03

initial idea was just to

10:05

set up a special porn monitoring

10:08

team worked from a windowless

10:10

room deep inside

10:13

Visa's headquarters in the San Francisco

10:15

Bay area. Did you ever get in the room? And

10:18

this is where we want to introduce

10:21

VISA guy number two, Kevin

10:24

Smith. You

10:27

heard from him in an earlier episode.

10:29

He's a payments expert and Kevin

10:32

loves payments. His

10:35

face lights up when

10:37

talking about pin codes and

10:39

zip zap machines, the things

10:41

that would take imprints of credit cards

10:43

in the nineteen eighties. For

10:45

seventeen years, Kevin worked

10:48

her Visa, often handling issues

10:50

related to high risk merchants, in

10:53

other words, pawn and

10:55

that's how he knew about

10:57

the windowless room. It was this strange

11:00

thing. It was. Yes, everyone knew of it, but

11:02

it was it wasn't clandestine's secret.

11:04

It just wasn't talked about. I

11:07

mean, it's if you look at it in hindsight, it

11:09

just didn't sound right that Visa

11:11

actually had this group of people that

11:14

were manually going

11:16

out there trying to find violations

11:19

and get them shut down. I

11:21

mean, it's a horrible job, incredibly

11:24

laborious and manual and probably

11:27

highly ineffective, which is

11:29

why you needed to find a more technical solution

11:31

to address it quickly. By the end

11:33

of the nineties, Visa shut

11:35

down the pawn room. They

11:37

pretty quickly realized that

11:40

way madness lies. They

11:42

knew they could never effectively screen

11:45

all the horrors of the Internet, and

11:48

they realized there was a much

11:50

better option. They could delegate.

11:55

They could outsource spying on porn

11:57

to somebody else and payment system

12:00

the banks and billers and service

12:02

providers, and the Visa and MasterCard

12:05

networks. But to outsource

12:07

anything, Visa needed

12:10

rules for others to apply, and

12:13

when you're a global business on

12:15

an issue like pawn. That's

12:17

easier said than done. If you look at

12:19

it a child pornography. Everyone

12:21

agrees that it's horrible,

12:24

nobody wants to be associated with it. But

12:27

actually there are many countries around the world that don't

12:29

actually have any legislation that says, in this

12:31

jurisdiction child pornography is illegal.

12:33

For a company like Visa operating

12:36

across the globe, even defining

12:39

what is outright illegal and

12:41

definitely shouldn't be processed

12:44

can be tricky. Visa's

12:46

main regulations run to something

12:48

like nine hundred pages. Pawn

12:51

is a tiny, tiny fraction

12:53

of that, but it played a special

12:56

role in how the rules developed.

12:59

Pawn was one of the first areas

13:01

where card companies built an

13:03

enforcement system to manage

13:05

risky online business. When

13:08

Visa and master Cards started to clamp

13:10

down in the early two thousands,

13:12

one adult payments veteran told

13:15

us it was like the sheriff coming

13:17

to Pawntown. Real regulation,

13:20

registration rules, supervision

13:23

requirements, even find

13:28

The unique nature of porn also

13:31

made Visa and master Card deviate

13:34

from a cherished principle. These

13:37

payment networks succeed

13:39

by being everywhere, and they

13:41

can only do that by supporting

13:43

all lawful commerce without

13:46

taking immoral stance. Neutrality

13:49

is good for business. Porn

13:52

was the exception. In the two

13:54

thousands, Visa decided

13:56

that since their brands gave porn sides

13:59

credibility helping consumers

14:01

trust them, they couldn't

14:03

ignore what the porn sides were selling,

14:06

even if it was strictly legal.

14:09

MasterCard took a similar approach. This

14:12

is Stanley Skogland. Again, those

14:15

decisions we took, they were never

14:17

taken lightly, because you know, Visa

14:20

cannot be a police man of the world

14:22

trying to say you can buy this, but you can't buy

14:24

that. You know, you can see how that could go wrong

14:27

quite quickly, but especially in these

14:29

instances where it was violence,

14:32

where it was borderline underage

14:35

kind of simulated rape. So

14:37

there were areas where the

14:39

legality of it wasn't

14:42

necessarily what made Visa

14:44

take action. This is all

14:46

encapsulated and Visa Rule

14:49

one point three point

14:51

three point four a ban

14:54

on selling images that are illegal

14:56

in most parts of the world, like

14:58

beastiality or non consensual

15:01

mutilation, but also

15:03

on top of that, a much broader

15:06

catch all clause brand

15:08

protect literally a

15:10

ban on anything that might bring

15:13

Visa into disrepute, and

15:15

out of these decisions emerged

15:18

a system for keeping pawn

15:20

in check, the apparatus

15:23

of control we see today

15:25

in the pawn world. This

15:28

was our takeaway, but we wanted

15:30

to put it to people who had seen the system

15:33

from the inside, so we asked

15:35

Kevin straight up, the Visa

15:37

and MasterCard ruled the pawn industry,

15:41

probably, yes, And the

15:43

reason for that is that there are there

15:45

are some significant names in the

15:47

industry, and they are

15:49

incredibly influential, but

15:52

at the end of the day, that they are influential

15:54

over their own content. Visa

15:57

MasterCard cut across all

15:59

of these, and yes,

16:01

perversely, Visa MasterCard

16:04

invertently has become the

16:06

semi regulator controller of this industry.

16:09

Visa and MasterCard use

16:11

their direct power with restraint,

16:15

but they ultimately oversee the card

16:18

networks, the networks that create

16:20

that messy thicket of rules and best

16:22

practice, codes that left Alie

16:25

Knox unable to sell videos

16:27

of her smoking weed Will Naked, and

16:30

the ones that stopped Stoya, the

16:33

performer and author we've heard from

16:35

a few times in this series, from

16:37

working when she is on her period,

16:40

or even telling her fans that she is

16:43

whoever is the arbiter of

16:46

what can be done with

16:49

sexual media and

16:51

sexual performance? Like I have no idea who

16:53

they are? Did they take a philosophy

16:55

class? Like are they? Do

16:57

they have a degree in women's studies? After

17:01

the break, we'll see whether

17:03

there are any philosophers at

17:05

the heart of Visa's pawn operation

17:13

Act two? Playing God?

17:18

This series has been about power.

17:21

We've met a cast of secretive

17:23

pornographers, ruthless

17:26

bankers, supercharged

17:28

tech bros. And we've always

17:30

been led by the question who

17:33

rules porn, who

17:36

ultimately decides on what can

17:38

and cannot be made in this business?

17:42

And now, in slightly

17:44

absurd fashion, we've

17:46

ended up at the doorstep of Visa

17:48

and MasterCard, giant

17:51

financial services providers. But

17:54

who at Visa was actually deciding

17:57

on porn policy? Estoya

17:59

asked, are they moral

18:02

philosophers, women studies

18:04

PhDs? Kevin

18:06

Smith had the answer because

18:09

at one point he was

18:12

one of the people making these

18:14

calls. You've

18:16

got a number of individuals

18:18

playing god in a room. That's

18:20

how the process has worked. But it's offset

18:23

by the fact that you've got so many different disciplines

18:25

there to give you a balanced

18:27

and appropriate answer based on each

18:29

individual case, there's a whole raft

18:31

of individuals. It's almost like the Star Chamber

18:34

because I was involved in similar versions in

18:36

Visa in Europe. The Star Chamber

18:39

back in the Middle Ages was created

18:42

to supplement a normal court system.

18:44

In England, it sometimes

18:47

handled cases that were moral

18:50

issues rather than clear breaches

18:52

of the law, which might

18:55

sound a little familiar. At

18:58

its best, the Star Chamber

19:00

was flexible and judicious, drawing

19:03

in a wide range of opinion, but

19:06

under certain kings it became a

19:08

by word for arbitrary power.

19:11

It was secretive, It lacked you

19:13

process

19:17

so difficult to imagine, you

19:19

know, senior executives at

19:21

VISA sitting down at a table and being

19:23

like peeing

19:26

and other people, you know, sexy

19:28

or not. Yeah, it's a tough job. If

19:31

you're sitting there looking at

19:34

a review of potential non compliance

19:36

activities with the rules, You're

19:38

going to look at the content, You're going to look at ridiculously

19:42

sounding website names or

19:44

descriptors. It comes with the

19:47

territory. Maybe to you it makes

19:49

perfect sense, but I think to most people, kind

19:51

of most civilians, it

19:53

would be quite extraordinary that these types

19:56

of conversations take place at Visa.

19:59

Yeah, they probably don't realize that these conversations

20:01

are happening every day, not just on adult

20:03

but on every single merchant environment

20:05

you can think of. For

20:08

Kevin, making decisions

20:10

that could affect thousands of people

20:12

in the porn industry was just

20:15

part of the job routine.

20:18

The same goes for Stanley. He

20:21

was more on the enforcement side, but

20:23

helped take decisions about businesses

20:26

that broke VISA rules. He's

20:29

not a philosopher, sorry Stoya,

20:32

But Stanley is a trained

20:35

sociologist, and as a

20:37

student he happened to take classes

20:39

in gender studies and the history

20:42

of ideas, so Stoya

20:45

wasn't that far off. Stanley

20:47

and Kevin, of course, wouldn't have

20:49

seen themselves as pawn regulators.

20:52

They were payments professionals, managers

20:55

of risk, and facilitators of commerce.

20:58

When they were at Visa, they dealt

21:00

with pyramid schemes and strange

21:03

frauds, with gambling, and

21:05

drugs, with things that pretended

21:07

to be drugs, all the crazy

21:10

things you can buy online.

21:13

In these cases, Visa and

21:15

MasterCard were trying to apply

21:17

a complex patchwork of local

21:19

laws within a global payments

21:22

network. But a Stayer explained

21:25

pawn seems to be different. Payment

21:28

networks do restrict things

21:30

that are legal, like menstrual blood

21:33

or cats. Is that

21:35

actually Visa and MasterCard? Here's

21:38

Stanley again, ninety

21:40

ninety nine percent. I

21:43

can tell you that that probably isn't the

21:45

case. Visasa Mastercard's

21:47

rules would not be as detailed,

21:50

they would not address these

21:53

issues, but that Visa would

21:55

say, yes, you can

21:57

you shoot at home, but you can't

21:59

insert an object into your body, or

22:01

you can't have animals in the

22:04

frame, or you can't perform

22:06

sex act while you're menstruating. No.

22:09

Now, Stanley is

22:11

right, Visa does not band

22:14

videos with menstrual blood, not

22:17

explicitly in its rules.

22:20

But Stoya is

22:22

also right. Menstrual

22:25

blood is not allowed on most

22:27

of the major porn platforms that take

22:29

credit cards. Why

22:31

the discrepancy? The

22:34

answer is quite revealing. When

22:37

Kevin and Stanley think about rules,

22:40

they mean the Visa and master

22:42

Card core operating rules,

22:45

the commandments. They

22:47

talk of them like the law. And

22:50

in these regulations, Visa

22:53

doesn't explicitly band blood or

22:55

smoking weed in videos.

22:59

Visa enjoys an arm's length

23:01

position from it all. But

23:03

at the same time, VISA

23:06

does encourage a whole chain

23:08

of people in the pawn payment

23:10

system to make judgments on

23:13

its behalf. They are told

23:15

to protect the brand. They

23:18

have to interpret the rules, monitor

23:20

science, and promote what Visa

23:22

would call best practices, and

23:25

in part to keep Visa and MasterCard

23:27

happy, those payment companies

23:29

and platforms ban menstrual,

23:32

blood and weed smoking in pawn

23:35

the example the performer Ali

23:37

raised, they're making all these arbitrary rules

23:39

to push us off the Internet, to push

23:41

us further and deeper underground. We're

23:44

constantly under threat of

23:46

censorship, of regulation.

23:50

Kevin and Stanley see that as different

23:52

from a Visa rule, but for performers

23:55

like Stayer and Ali, there

23:58

is no difference in practice or

24:01

in impact. It's very hard for us

24:03

to live stable

24:05

lifestyles. We didn't have to shoot from porn companies

24:08

anymore, we didn't have to shitty agents, and

24:10

then regulations came through and now are back

24:14

to being fucked. Visa

24:20

and master Card clearly don't

24:22

make all these decisions, but

24:25

they do shape the network and try

24:27

to shape an approach. We've

24:29

talked lots of payment people for the series,

24:33

but Kevin and Stanley, more than

24:35

anyone else, helped us understand

24:38

the mindset within the credit card

24:40

Woppoli, the psyche

24:42

of a reluctant ruler. Have

24:45

they eat them right people to be the

24:48

kind of ultimate quasi

24:50

regulators of Paul In

24:54

the absence of anyone else, I would say

24:56

yes, And that could be quite a ballsy

24:58

answer. But at the end of the day, I

25:01

think Visa master Card, through their

25:03

relationships, they have a good local

25:05

understanding of what's going on in this

25:07

industry. Actually, it's

25:09

challenges and it's constant evolution.

25:12

I mean, there is a shared responsibility

25:14

that says nobody wants to kill

25:17

the industry, but it needs to

25:19

make sure that as it moves forward, it's doing

25:21

so in a legally defensible

25:23

way. What

25:26

Kevin described is a murky

25:28

self regulating system that to

25:31

some extent keeps pawn

25:33

in check. When he was at Visa,

25:36

I can imagine he was more or less

25:38

trying to do the right thing, and

25:40

he worked in a system that by

25:43

its very nature involves

25:45

different interests that often balance

25:47

one another. Picture who

25:49

is sitting around the table. There

25:52

will be Visa executives whose

25:54

job it is to drum up more

25:56

business and encourage more transactions.

26:00

Then there will be people with a different

26:02

outlook, teams managing

26:04

risk, worrying about the brand

26:07

or the legal consequences of using

26:09

Visa's power. Visa's

26:11

aim, and frankly the aim

26:14

of the adult industry too, is

26:16

to try to find a balance where

26:18

money is flowing but the risks

26:20

in the system are managed. There

26:23

is a recognition that everyone needs everyone else.

26:26

The whole thing is symbiotic. If one of the parties

26:28

falls out, then the whole damn thing falls over.

26:31

Visa and master Card, almost

26:33

by accidents, have filled a power

26:36

vacuum and a regulation of porn around

26:38

the world. It's such

26:40

a peculiar position to be in, and

26:44

to Stanley, it carries obvious

26:46

risks. It's difficult

26:48

to judge went to intervene and

26:51

went to hold back. I mean, do

26:53

you think that Visa and master

26:55

Card. Do you think they realize

26:59

how how

27:01

much power they have, how people in

27:03

the adult industry see them as

27:06

their defector regulator. Yes,

27:10

I think you may be onto something

27:13

that if you have worked

27:15

in that position a long time

27:19

and you don't engage with the industry.

27:21

Yes, I think there's absolutely a risk

27:24

that you don't understand either

27:27

the de facto power you have

27:29

or how it is perceived, and perhaps

27:32

that is something would

27:34

benefit but Visa master Card to be

27:37

more kind of self critical in their

27:39

reflection of how

27:41

these programs and how this policies

27:44

are implemented. Is

27:47

there a better approach for

27:49

Visa and master Card. We'll

27:52

try to do some critical reflection ourselves

27:55

with a little help from the performers Stayer.

27:59

That's coming straight after the break Act

28:06

three ruled by Store.

28:12

We are near the end of our journey

28:14

through the porn industry, and

28:16

we're going back to the person who

28:19

set us off at the beginning, the

28:21

performer and artist Stayer.

28:24

Her advice was invaluable and

28:27

at least for us, totally

28:29

unforgettable. So if

28:32

you try to make a

28:34

podcast that's about all

28:37

of porn, it's going to be scattered

28:39

and messy and not make sense. You

28:42

are the financial times, I suggest

28:44

you stay in your lane. You

28:46

focus on the business aspect, you

28:49

focus on the finances. Stay

28:52

in your lane. At

28:54

that point, we had secretive

28:56

porn barrens in our sides, big

28:59

empires pumping out porn to the

29:01

world. Men who

29:03

lived in the shadows, fake

29:06

names, no real public

29:08

presence, people like Bernt Bergmeyer,

29:11

Pornhub or Stefan

29:13

Paco, the owner of X Videos.

29:15

We thought they were the

29:18

most powerful people in porn. But

29:21

what we realized is that

29:24

they aren't the masters of their

29:26

own fate. What we discovered

29:29

is that the real rule of s of porn were

29:32

much closer to home the

29:34

credit card networks, and

29:36

they were in plain sight. The

29:39

porn barons have immense power

29:42

and influence, sure, but

29:45

always within boundaries defined

29:47

by payment companies. Visa

29:50

and MasterCard have the last

29:52

word. These

29:54

were in MasterCard are truly

29:56

vast corporations. Visa

29:59

is the world's biggest financial

30:01

company, the single biggest,

30:04

and MasterCard is something like

30:06

the third and let's be frank,

30:09

fees are and MasterCard aren't wildly

30:12

exciting companies, even

30:15

for financial journalists. We

30:17

all use them every day, but give

30:20

them as much attention as the plumbing

30:22

in our house. But by

30:24

examining the pawn industry, we

30:27

saw the incredible power these

30:29

payment networks wheeled over

30:31

the Internet. Instead of the government

30:35

defining what is and is not considered

30:37

sexually acceptable, it's

30:40

a corporation. A

30:43

credit card company is

30:46

defining what is

30:48

and is not sexually okay.

30:51

If you think about what the core goal

30:54

is on their part. It's

30:56

not necessarily you know, the

30:59

good of the community or society, whatever. It's

31:01

actually the protection of their brand and

31:04

no fault of this. I mean that that's what a company's

31:06

there to do, but that's not necessarily

31:08

the thing that we want to use as

31:11

our measure of whether pornography

31:14

is okay or what kind of pornography is

31:16

okay. Yeah, and it feels

31:18

like a really bad idea to be saying,

31:21

like, actually, I think the government should pay

31:23

more attention to born, but

31:25

I don't think that

31:28

MasterCard and Visa should

31:30

be the decision makers

31:32

on this. We

31:35

have spoken to people at these companies.

31:38

We can tell you with absolute confidence

31:41

that Visa and MasterCard don't

31:44

want to be the decision makers

31:46

either. They oversee

31:48

a system that sets standards

31:50

for world porn, but

31:53

they just hate doing it. They

31:55

are trapped in this thankless job deciding

31:58

and enforcing moral codes

32:00

on sex. It goes

32:02

against all their instincts. But

32:06

what's the alternative? A magic

32:09

in the reaction if they did explicitly

32:11

allow payments for videos that depicted

32:14

rape. So if the

32:16

question is who should rule

32:19

pawn, we probably

32:21

don't have much choice. Cryptocurrencies

32:24

are still too clunky and expensive

32:27

to usurp the role of credit cards

32:29

in pawn, and if crypto

32:31

did take over, there might

32:34

be no rules left at all. What

32:36

about governments. They

32:39

certainly have immense power over

32:41

pawn companies within their borders,

32:44

but we've talked to regulators who

32:46

are trying to tighten up rules around

32:48

pawn. They struggle to

32:51

get the big pawn platforms

32:53

based in far off jurisdictions

32:55

to even respond to their messages.

32:59

They don't have the leverage of Visa

33:02

and master Card or the global

33:04

reach, so in

33:07

practice Visa and MasterCard

33:10

remain indispensable. There

33:13

is nobody else. How

33:15

should these payment networks use their

33:18

power. There

33:20

are some areas where Stoya,

33:22

given the choice, might actually

33:24

have taken a tougher approach, like

33:27

what's so called faux sest. If

33:30

you've been on a porn site in recent years,

33:33

you'll have noticed that there's a craze

33:36

for sexual fantasies about step

33:38

relatives. Stoya

33:41

wants to see less of it around, But

33:43

then she also thinks

33:46

decisions like this deserve

33:48

an open debate, the kind of thing

33:50

a government would have when making law.

33:53

Call your senator and be like, hey,

33:55

I actually want to defend step

33:58

in sest porn because it's a fantasy, and

34:01

so we're talking about thought crimes, and

34:03

you know, I think I think Stoya is wrong.

34:06

I think she's being reactionary

34:08

and like over stepping. But

34:10

with payment companies in control,

34:13

it's impossible to have that kind of meaningful

34:16

debate. You know. It's not like

34:19

I can go down to the master

34:21

Card office and be like, hello,

34:24

I would like to have a civil dialogue

34:27

about this, Like that's not going

34:29

to happen. This might be

34:31

one of the things that can be improved.

34:34

The arbitrary nature of that power.

34:37

Visa and MasterCard maybe reluctant

34:40

morality police, but that's

34:42

no excuse for operating at

34:44

times almost by stealth

34:47

and issuing vague catch

34:49

all rules that are turned by payment

34:51

networks into bizarrely precise,

34:54

often inconsistent restrictions.

35:01

We asked master Card for a recorded

35:04

interview. They were helpful

35:06

with background information, but in the

35:08

end end they declined if

35:11

we did have that conversation, we'd

35:14

probably start with some

35:16

optimism. We've tracked

35:19

a crazy era for the

35:21

adult industry. Pawn

35:23

has gone from being scarce and

35:26

expensive to being everywhere

35:29

and mostly free all

35:31

within a generation, and

35:33

in business terms, you can

35:35

finally see things kind

35:38

of coming back together. The

35:41

Internet is giving performers more

35:43

power and independence and

35:46

most importantly money. If

35:49

that can improve their working conditions,

35:52

that is surely welcome. We've

35:54

seen how Visa and MasterCard oversee

35:56

a regulatory system for pawn. But

36:00

who are these rules for. The

36:02

truth is they're not designed

36:05

to protect the performers. They're

36:07

not designed to protect the viewer. The

36:10

rules are there to protect the Visa

36:12

and MasterCard brands, but

36:16

it is the only system we have. How

36:19

could it work better? We have

36:21

one suggestion. This

36:24

series has been about how big

36:26

porn barons are reliant on Visa

36:28

and MasterCard, and how

36:31

Visa and MasterCard are reluctant

36:33

rulers of the porn barons. Those

36:36

two things have created a really patchy

36:38

system of rules and a

36:41

weird situation where tube sides

36:43

serving free porn have fewer

36:46

restrictions than sites taking

36:48

credit cards, even though

36:50

tube sides are easier for underage

36:53

people to access. If Visa

36:55

and MasterCards said to an owner, you

36:58

own tube sides, you own pay

37:00

sites, We're going to treat everything

37:02

you own as one. That

37:05

would be one way to be more consistent

37:08

and bring entire to standards on

37:10

moderation to help lower the

37:12

risk of unlawful videos

37:14

appearing on tube sites. Don't

37:17

underestimate the power of Visa

37:19

and MasterCard. When credit card

37:21

companies call, even secretive

37:24

pornographers would feel compelled

37:27

to pick up the phone because

37:29

right now they don't want

37:31

to talk. And that

37:33

brings me back to the

37:36

one moment where I thought I

37:38

heard the voice of the man who

37:41

was the start of this whole journey, Burned

37:44

berg Meyer or BB, the

37:47

ex Gorman Sax banker who

37:49

I revealed was the secret owner

37:52

of mine Geek. I

37:55

was so excited to find

37:57

his Hong Kong number. I

37:59

called. A man picked

38:02

up. I like to think it

38:04

was BB. Hello, this

38:07

is Patrician Nelson from the Financial Time

38:09

this Bergmire As

38:12

I introduced myself, and

38:15

that split second, maybe

38:17

he thought, what

38:19

do I say? Do I

38:22

have anything to hide from this reporter? A

38:26

millennium of shame about sex

38:28

and porn might have flashed across his mind.

38:31

But then maybe he reconsidered

38:33

things have changed. Porn

38:36

is everywhere, everyone

38:38

watches it. It's a business

38:40

like any other. Is

38:43

it time to explain what I do?

38:46

He paused and

38:48

then he hung

38:51

up. Hot

39:02

Money is a production of The Financial Times

39:05

and Pushkin Industries. It was written and

39:07

reported by Me, Patrician Neilson and

39:09

me Alex Barker. Peter

39:12

Sale is our lead producer and sound

39:14

designer. Edith Russelo is

39:16

our associate producer. Our editor

39:18

is Karen Shakurgie. Amanda ka

39:21

Wong is our engineer. Music

39:23

compositioned by Pascal Wise, fact

39:26

checking by Andrea Lopez

39:28

Kusado. Our executive producers

39:31

are Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein.

39:35

A Pushkin Industry's Special thanks

39:37

to Mia LaBelle, letal

39:39

My Lad, Justine Lang, Julia

39:42

Barton, Heather Faine, John

39:44

Schnaz, Maggie Taylor, Morgan

39:46

Ratner, Eric Sandler, Jake

39:49

Flanagan, Jordan McMillan, Mary

39:52

Beth Smith, Isabella Nervis,

39:54

Sean Carney, Carlie Migliori,

39:57

Maya Kanig, Daniela Lakhan,

40:00

Nicole Morano and Jacob Weissberg

40:03

at The Financial Times Special

40:05

thanks to Renee Kaplan and Ruler

40:07

Khalaf, Alista Key, Kendra,

40:10

James, Nigel Hansson, Molly

40:12

Eisner, Ronda Taylor, Breen

40:15

Turner, Nicholas Stansfield

40:17

Peter Spiegel, Philippa Goodrich,

40:20

Kevin Wilson, Carolina Vargas,

40:23

Manuela Saragosa tofer

40:25

foreheadge Laura Clark, Matt

40:28

Garrahan, Andrew Georgiades,

40:31

Petros Gion passes, Richard

40:34

Martin, Barney Jobson, Daniel

40:37

Dombie, Cynthia Omoreho and

40:39

voice Mihawark