0:15

Pushkin before

0:21

we start a warning. Our

0:23

investigation looks into power and

0:25

the porn industry. This episode contains

0:28

adult themes. In

0:33

previous episodes, we've told you

0:35

about men at the top of porn,

0:38

their ambition, their power battles,

0:41

their relentless efforts to remain

0:44

unknown to the world. We

0:47

looked at how they cornered the most lucrative

0:49

parts of the adult business, either

0:51

by owning tech platforms or production

0:54

studios or both. Porn

0:57

profits flowed to owners

0:59

and middlemen, but not

1:01

so much to performers. Now

1:04

we're going to tell you about the company

1:07

that reset the ballot, the

1:10

company that, whether it intended

1:12

to or not, managed to shift

1:14

money and power back to performers

1:17

in a huge way. You

1:20

may have heard its name. He became

1:22

so popular during the pandemic. Even

1:25

my mother had heard its name. We're

1:27

talking about Only Fans. Only

1:30

Fans as a social media platform just

1:32

like those you use already, but which

1:34

allows you to set a monthly subscription price,

1:37

ensuring that any media you upload is

1:39

fully hidden until your fans pay your subscription.

1:44

We are not the average demographic.

1:46

We are on the more mature

1:48

sides of your typical webcam

1:51

broadcaster, This

1:53

is Peppermint. It's the stage

1:56

name she uses for the adult enterprise

1:58

she runs with her husband, Dusty, also

2:01

a stage name. Our shows

2:03

can run anywhere between four to eight

2:05

hours eight hours

2:08

time. All of that is sexual

2:10

engagement. We have amazing conversations

2:12

with our viewers. We like to dive deep into

2:15

the meaning of life and relationships

2:17

and sexuality. We

2:19

met at a pawn event in la

2:22

where Dusty and Peppermint were promoting

2:24

their business and meeting fans.

2:27

They're mainly known for their live video

2:29

work on campsites those

2:31

a tower shows that can include

2:33

sex, fire, spinning, acrobatic

2:36

yoga, and cooking,

2:39

trying to promote real sex between

2:41

real people rather than a fantasy

2:44

scenario created by a studio. Over

2:48

time, they've branched out selling

2:50

clips on video platforms and reaching

2:52

their most loyal supporters through an

2:54

only Fans account. So with the explosion

2:57

of people turning to only Fans,

2:59

turning to content creation, turning to

3:01

online work, I think there is a

3:03

lot more acceptance of it in the

3:05

mainstream audience. Only

3:09

Fans is a platform that launched in

3:11

twenty sixteen. It's basically

3:13

a special kind of social media

3:15

site. It lets you message

3:17

followers or upload videos

3:20

or posts, just like Instagram

3:22

or Facebook. The twist with only

3:24

Fans is that your content lives

3:27

behind a paywall. Visitors

3:29

pay you to view it. They can

3:31

even pay you to produce media just

3:34

for them. This seemingly

3:36

small difference the paywall

3:39

changed how a whole generation of

3:41

online stars earned their living. Influencers,

3:45

musicians, fitness instructors,

3:47

but especially porn stars.

3:50

Only Fans made the industry's most

3:52

famous performers seriously

3:54

rich. Some have earned millions

3:57

and allowed them to make videos

3:59

at home on their own terms.

4:02

Most Only Fans creators are and

4:04

big stars, but more like Peppermint

4:07

and Dusty, the PM

4:09

has allowed them to generate a modest

4:12

study income. It made

4:14

it easier than ever to make money from porn

4:17

until the moment Only Fans announced

4:20

that porn wouldn't be welcome

4:22

anymore. Can you tell us about the day

4:25

that Only Fans banned

4:27

porn? We had actually been

4:30

on a trip up to the mountains, and

4:33

we had gone just to a different locations so

4:35

we could shoot some new content specifically

4:38

for only Fans. I

4:40

opened up the app on my phone and I

4:42

see Twitter, and I see all these

4:44

posts about only fans banning porn. So

4:48

I remember driving down the mountains

4:51

seeing our follower account just drop

4:54

literally in half, which means we also

4:56

lost half of our income. I think

4:58

that these rules and these changes

5:01

almost affect the smaller creators more

5:03

so. The platform that totally

5:05

transformed the pawn industry decided

5:08

to ban pawn to

5:10

become a safe for work service. Then

5:13

just one week later, Only Fans

5:15

changed its mind. Pawn was

5:18

okay again. They canceled

5:20

the cancelation. It was

5:22

so farcical. Only Fans

5:24

made headlines around the world. And

5:27

what about them when they reversed the

5:29

band? How did you feel them? You

5:32

always kind of sit there and wonder when

5:34

it's going to happen again, and you

5:36

know what's going to be the next trigger. Why

5:38

are they going to do it this time? What

5:45

happened? We decided

5:47

to seek out only fans and where it came

5:49

from a close knit family

5:52

from Essex, the New Jersey

5:54

of England. They're

5:56

the most miscast porn barons you can

5:58

imagine, and yet

6:01

they somehow confirmed power

6:03

and porn is all about

6:05

the payments. I'm

6:08

Alex Barker, I'm Patrician

6:10

Nelson from Pushkin Industries.

6:12

And the Financial Times. This is

6:15

hot Money,

6:45

Act one financial

6:48

domination. We

6:52

set out to follow Only Fans to

6:54

its source and it brought

6:56

us to a big gated house on

6:58

the south coast of England, the home

7:01

of Danny Harwood. Danny

7:04

was the very first creator to join

7:06

Only Fans when it launched. Hi

7:09

everyone, my name's Danny. Welcome

7:11

to my Only Fans page. Come enjoy

7:14

me have a little chat. Can I see all

7:16

my sexy selfies? And

7:18

let's have some fun boys. But

7:22

before we get to that part of the story,

7:25

we have to tell you how she first met

7:27

Tim Stokely, the mind

7:29

behind Only Fans. It

7:34

all started about twelve years

7:36

ago. Danny was in her late

7:38

twenties making her living as a glamor

7:40

model and one day a

7:42

man called Tim walked into her

7:45

life with a mad cat plan to

7:47

transform her into goddess

7:49

Danielle. So can

7:51

you tell us when and where

7:54

you first met him?

7:57

He contacted me for a photo

7:59

shoet, having seen me

8:01

on TV, and

8:05

he turned up in

8:08

a all roy suit with

8:11

a briefcase and

8:14

a copy of The Financial Times under his

8:16

arm. It was just a bit who

8:19

is this guy? Tim was carrying

8:21

a Financial Times because his father

8:23

was a banker. His brother was a

8:26

banker, and Tim may

8:28

have become a banker too if

8:30

he didn't have other interests

8:32

he wanted to pursue. He

8:35

was starting a new business, a

8:37

fetish side called glam Worship.

8:40

He sort of looked like he was just about

8:42

to go for a board meeting, not a photo

8:44

shoot. That he was young, a fairly

8:47

good looking guy, and just

8:49

very smart and very well spoken.

8:51

And he's like, right, okay, Danny,

8:54

and if you just

8:56

like just sit over there, and

9:00

he's like, just look at the camera.

9:03

He was so wonder prepared. He was

9:05

so nervous. This

9:07

was Tim's first shoot for glam Worship.

9:11

Danny was the first model. He

9:13

used his briefcase as

9:15

a camera stand. And here's

9:17

the extraordinary part. The origins

9:20

of Only Fans can be traced straight

9:22

back to the kink the website

9:25

served this fetish

9:27

for financial domination. Out

9:30

of the photoshoot would emerge Goddess

9:33

Danielle her Page told

9:35

visitors it was the luckiest day

9:38

of their pathetic existence. Girls

9:40

would talk about financially

9:44

dominating men. That's

9:46

what the fetish was. So the

9:48

woman is in charge and therefore

9:50

they should give their money to

9:52

the woman, and because they're not

9:55

worthy of that money. Financial

9:57

domination, the art

9:59

of the finndom is not something

10:02

we have made up for a Financial

10:04

Times podcast about money and porn.

10:07

We promise, Hello, slaves,

10:11

Well, you've probably been watching

10:13

me for quite a while now, haven't you seeing

10:16

me grow from strength to

10:19

strengths? By

10:22

now? I have lots of loyal little

10:25

followers, lots of loyal submissives.

10:30

Some people will literally pay

10:33

for the thrill of becoming a financial

10:35

slave. Tim was gripped

10:37

scenarios for Danny to perform to her fans

10:40

or pay pets. Danny's

10:43

financial slaves never actually

10:45

handed over all their money even

10:48

if they wanted to. They probably couldn't.

10:51

The tech was still clunky, almost

10:54

hacked together. Danny's pay

10:56

pets could buy her stuff from an

10:58

Amazon wish list or send

11:00

checks to a numbered postbox.

11:03

But the pay pets could never get

11:05

Goddess Danielle's personal

11:07

attention. They couldn't ask

11:09

for her custom videos or directly

11:12

fill her bank account with money. The

11:15

flaws were obvious. Tim

11:18

launched other ventures, hoping to solve

11:20

them. Many other ventures,

11:23

and after some painful trial and error,

11:26

in twenty sixteen, something

11:28

new came together a

11:30

sight then actually worked Only

11:33

Fans a platform

11:36

that combined interaction, tailor

11:39

made content, and a direct connection

11:41

between the fan and the performer, including

11:45

yes payment, with only

11:47

Fans taking a twenty percent cut.

11:50

Danny was one of the first to

11:53

hear Tim's idea, It's like, so

11:55

people can tip you on that. I was like, what,

11:58

they can tip you? It's like yeah, I was like, okay,

12:01

that's a game changer. This

12:04

was the start of a new era.

12:06

If video streaming made pawn

12:09

three, Only Fans was one of

12:11

the sites that began to

12:13

turn the tide. People were

12:15

paying for pawn again, actually

12:18

getting their credit cards out, and

12:20

not just to pay pornographers, a

12:22

studio or a website owner. They

12:25

were paying the performers direct.

12:29

It was a slow start, but

12:32

as new features were introduced, partly

12:34

on Danny's advice, the

12:36

money started rolling in through

12:39

Only Fans. Danny found

12:41

a way to tap her Instagram and Twitter.

12:43

Following I went from earning

12:45

one month between three and six thousand

12:47

dollars. My next earnings was twenty two

12:50

thousand. Tim asked Danny

12:52

to spread the word, so she spoke

12:54

with friends at the Glamor TV channel

12:56

where she performed Girls as this

12:59

website, you have to join it. You look

13:01

at my bank statement. To look at the statement.

13:04

This is what I'm being paid, this is what

13:06

you could earn. They're like, wow, so quickly

13:09

find them up. Danny told

13:11

us that performers started leaving

13:13

because they were earning so much money

13:16

from their only Fans accounts and

13:18

keeping most of it going into the changing

13:20

room. One day and my boss

13:22

had put these posters up in the changing room

13:24

walled saying that you're not allowed to

13:27

film any content for only fans,

13:29

otherwise you're going to get the sack. They hated

13:31

it. Danny says she eventually

13:34

became the first to have a million dollar

13:37

page to her and

13:39

for many established performers, the

13:42

control only Fans provided was

13:44

a sort of liberation. It

13:47

gave them freedom and

13:49

the power that comes with money.

13:52

They were being paid well enough to

13:54

have leverage in the industry, something

13:57

that in an age of free porm

13:59

was sorely lacking. Today,

14:04

Danny is still on the platform,

14:06

not as God as Danielle, but under

14:09

another name. She crowned

14:11

herself to the Queen of Only

14:13

Fans. After all these

14:15

years, she is still friends

14:18

with the Stokely family, and

14:20

that's who we spoke with next.

14:23

That's after the break act

14:34

two, The Stokelease. We

14:39

hopped in a car with our producer Pete

14:41

Sale and headed to bishop Stortford,

14:43

a rural commuter town to the northeast

14:46

of London. It's near the home

14:48

of the Stokelease, but not a typical

14:50

spot for a company headquarters, which

14:53

I should Where are we going and why? I

14:56

don't even know how to pronounce it. The Bishop's

14:59

destroyed great

15:03

staff podcasts

15:05

already. We're

15:07

in the car. We're on our

15:10

way to meet up with Tim and

15:12

guys Stokely. We

15:19

are walking past the only Fans

15:21

headquarters, which are in a converted

15:24

barn called Fish Barn. It

15:27

looks like the south of Sweden, but

15:29

we're just next to us are a couple of

15:31

grain silos. It

15:34

feels pretty rural. There's a thatched

15:36

roof over there. Who's not

15:38

why you expect businesses not make me think

15:40

adult content. We were greeted by

15:42

the founder, Tim Stokely and

15:44

taken to a conference room overlooking

15:47

a pond. My first podcast. Yeah

15:50

yeah. Tim doesn't often do

15:52

recorded interviews. He has

15:55

a bit of a playboy image in the press.

15:57

His instagram is full of glam shots of

15:59

Abitha and sharp cut suits, but

16:02

when we met him, that's

16:04

not how he came across at all. He

16:07

was almost shy, hardly

16:09

the guide that was once called the King of

16:12

homemade porn. He

16:14

first ended up in the adult industry

16:16

in part because the financial crash

16:18

hit the job market in the city of London.

16:21

Since he couldn't follow his father and brother

16:24

into banking, he tried something

16:26

else, starting internet businesses

16:29

from scratch. Lots of his ideas

16:31

failed miserably, but the ones

16:33

in the adult business pointed him

16:35

in the right direction. A lot of

16:37

the models we were working

16:40

with were getting inundated with

16:42

private requests asking

16:44

to produce these tailored custom

16:47

videos. The seed of

16:49

Only Fans was planted when

16:51

Only Fans launched. It was intended

16:54

to be for everyone. There was no

16:56

homepage with porn stars, no

16:58

search function to find them. There

17:00

still isn't. It was really

17:03

designed to be an add on service

17:05

for the social media profiles that people

17:08

already had. It allowed them

17:10

to monetize their online following,

17:13

but the creators, musicians,

17:15

or influencers or fitness instructors

17:18

had to bring their own fan base with

17:21

them, and the first ones to

17:23

do it were the porn stars.

17:27

I think the adult industry is typically

17:29

ahead of the curve when it comes to new tech, and

17:31

I think content

17:33

behind a payball model

17:36

really really suited. How did you raise

17:38

the money for it? That was my father,

17:41

Guy, Guy Stokely is

17:43

a former merchant banker. If

17:45

Tim is an unlikely pornographer,

17:47

Guy is a complete fish out of

17:49

water. Before only fans

17:52

Guy was retired. He's mild

17:54

mannered and ever so polite. Tim

17:57

phone me and said, I've got this really

17:59

good idea, Dad, and I

18:02

kind of explained that the premise of

18:04

paid social media, and

18:07

he told me about it, and I said, yeah,

18:10

that's interesting. Picture

18:13

that thought bubble coming from Guy's head.

18:16

Oh god, not again.

18:19

There was a healthy amount of skepticism.

18:21

Guid invested in some of the previous platforms.

18:24

Some have gone really well, some really

18:26

badly. After many attempts

18:29

that to convince him, I remember Guy

18:31

saying, okay, okay,

18:33

but this is the last one. The

18:36

early days for Tim were a hard slog.

18:39

He sent hundreds of emails to performers

18:42

and influencers trying to explain

18:44

how much money they could make on Only

18:46

Fans. I remember receiving one

18:48

email from one influencer saying,

18:51

this is hands down the most stupid

18:53

business idea I've ever heard in my life.

18:56

Only Fans launched in twenty sixteen.

18:59

One thing that really put the wind in

19:01

its sails was a clever referral

19:04

program giving creators a cut

19:06

of other people's earnings if they brought

19:09

to the platform. Guy thought

19:11

Tim's goal of half a million pounds

19:13

revenue in twenty seventeen was

19:16

totally ridiculous. They ended

19:18

up with two point four million

19:20

pounds. A lot of the

19:22

creators were adult performers and

19:24

sitting with the stoke. Please, that's something

19:27

you can easily forget. They

19:29

don't seem like pawn. People

19:32

mentioned nudity, and Guy almost

19:35

starts to blush. I didn't think

19:37

of it as being adult. I wasn't interested

19:39

in adult, but it

19:42

was about sporting. Tim. This

19:44

was genuinely a family business.

19:47

Tim was CEO and guide, the

19:49

chief financial officer and supportive

19:51

father. Tim's sister and his

19:53

two brothers were involved. Two. But

19:56

then in twenty eighteen, at

19:58

a point when only Fans was growing

20:00

fast and showing it had real potential,

20:03

the Stoke please did something surprising. They

20:06

decided it was time to bring in an outside

20:08

of fester. They sold only

20:11

Fans but stayed on as the executive

20:13

team. Within a year

20:15

of selling, their platform

20:17

just exploded in popularity.

20:20

Only Fans is massively a part

20:22

of the pop cultures. Igeist right now,

20:25

Cardibi's on the platform, Chris

20:27

Brown, Now, why are you tipping this? Rich man?

20:29

I think I'm gonna start a holy fans

20:32

Please do it? Lonny Love, Michael B. Jordan's

20:34

mustache. Beyonce even name

20:36

dropped only fans in a song if

20:42

she might start at only fans. During

20:45

the pandemic, it reached two million creators

20:48

and one hundred and eighty million users,

20:51

A significant proportion of them were

20:53

buying or selling pawn. Only

20:56

Fans gave the tired old pawn

20:59

industry a new lease of life,

21:01

and everything on the site was behind

21:03

a paywall, so much harder for

21:05

children to access. But with

21:08

the success came a lot

21:10

of bad press for Tim. There

21:12

were, of course stereotypes about the bling

21:15

essex man making millions from pawn,

21:18

but also unease over only

21:20

fans, normalizing pornography,

21:23

making it seem just like any

21:25

other career a

21:28

lot of men and women saw the huge

21:30

payout to top porn stars and thought,

21:33

I can give this a try. But most

21:36

couldn't build a big enough following, and

21:39

some probably realized porn

21:41

wasn't something you can just dabble in and

21:44

regretted trying anyway.

21:47

It's fair to say Only Fans

21:49

really caught a cultural moment and

21:52

courted plenty of controversy.

21:55

We of course focused on

21:57

the business side and the money.

21:59

What you need to understand is what makes

22:02

Only Fans different. It succeeded

22:04

not just because it could take money,

22:07

but because it could pay it out. It

22:10

built a financial bridge from

22:12

fans credit cards straight to the

22:14

bank accounts of creators. The

22:16

bigger Only Fans became, the

22:18

more its reputation was associated

22:21

with a pawn revival, and the

22:24

more nervous banks got moving

22:26

its money around the world. So

22:29

nervous one bank even

22:31

stopped providing a personal bank account

22:33

to Tim's brother, a former banker,

22:36

just because he was involved

22:38

in running Only Fans. It's a very

22:40

strange way to act, but it was, you

22:43

know. That's what happened. Then,

22:46

in the summer of twenty twenty one, the

22:48

dam burst Only

22:50

Fans. The platform that changed

22:53

the adult industry announced it

22:55

was going to ban pawn Performers

22:59

were totally stunned. Only

23:01

fans will prohibit the posting of any

23:03

content containing sexually explicit

23:05

kind act. That leaves a lot of people worried

23:07

about what's going to happen into the At

23:10

least tens of thousands of creators

23:12

on the platform, who, particularly during

23:14

the pandemic, have made a lot of

23:16

money from the safety of their haunts.

23:18

Hiss, think back to the decision to ban

23:21

explicit content, and

23:22

yeah, what were you trying

23:25

to achieve when

23:27

you first made that announcement. Well,

23:29

it certainly wasn't a strategic move

23:33

really, Yeah, absolutely,

23:36

Here, we have to

23:38

pay out hundreds of millions

23:41

of dollars to creators globally

23:43

each month. You know, when

23:46

you have to move that amount of money, you depend

23:48

upon large investment banks, and we

23:50

were seeing an increasing amount of wires

23:53

being flagged, with some investment

23:56

banks citing things like reputational

23:58

risk. The precise trigger

24:00

of their decision remains unclear. Here,

24:03

Tim is describing the choice

24:05

as a practical matter. His company's

24:08

transfers were being flagged, marked

24:11

down for extra checks by banks

24:13

moving their money around the world. A

24:16

lot of banks don't want

24:18

to be associated with porn. The

24:21

abrupt announcement completely

24:23

through the industry. The uproar

24:25

from performers was deafening. Big

24:28

stars or less well known

24:30

performers like Peppermint and Dusty. They

24:33

relied on only fans for their livelihoods,

24:35

and they were furious. And

24:38

after a week of mayhem, only

24:40

Fans reversed its decision.

24:44

Porn went from banned too okay

24:46

again all inside seven days.

24:49

People who earn money on the website only

24:52

fans may have a bad case

24:54

of whiplash tonight, what a walk back.

24:56

I guess The question is has the damage already

24:58

been done? Some users really saw this as

25:00

a move of only fans selling

25:02

out. Only Fans said its original

25:04

decision to ban porn was due to pressure

25:07

from banking and payment services, but now

25:09

it has secured assurances necessary to keep

25:12

things as is. To

25:14

everyone watching, the handling

25:16

looked totally botched. It

25:18

was mocked on social media and compared

25:21

to Domino's trying to ban Peter.

25:24

The lack of any convincing explanation

25:27

at the time also fed all

25:29

sorts of conspiracy theories. Tim

25:32

actually insists the reversal

25:35

was enabled by an interview he did with me over

25:37

the phone last year. It was for

25:39

a piece in the Financial Times that brands

25:41

straight after the ban, where he named

25:44

some of the banks causing only fans

25:46

problems. After that article

25:48

was published, he said the

25:50

mood changed, the banks

25:52

gave him the assurances

25:54

he needed. Do you have regrets

25:58

on how you handled it? Looking

26:00

back? Not

26:03

on how it was handled. I don't think we had

26:05

much of a choice, but I

26:08

deeply regret amount of concern

26:11

an anxiety it caused. I

26:13

mean for a lot of people it was it's like being

26:15

cut down at the knees and

26:18

why should they trust any fans not

26:20

to do this again? And well, I you

26:24

know, I think what this, what

26:29

this put a spotlight on, was the

26:31

discriminatory policies within

26:34

the banking system, and that's where

26:36

the focus is. I think Tim

26:38

here is talking about banks making

26:40

life difficult for companies just

26:42

because they're associated with adult

26:45

content. The problem isn't necessarily

26:47

allowing pawn on a platform. Twitter,

26:50

for instance, permits adult content

26:52

on parts of its platform and hosts

26:55

lots of pawn without much trouble.

26:58

The issue start when a company

27:00

has so much pawn or

27:02

makes so much money from pawn it

27:05

starts to look like a pawn

27:07

company. After that, basic

27:10

finance dries up, banking

27:12

becomes harder and a lot more expensive.

27:15

There are lots of people in the pawn industry

27:18

who find it hard to believe that only

27:20

fans got cold feet for a mundane

27:23

reason like financing. They

27:25

are still convinced the whole pawn

27:27

band fiasco was actually

27:30

a publicity stunt, some

27:32

cunning plan that's that's entirely

27:35

false. I think we've perhaps been victim

27:37

to some you

27:40

know, unfair reporting, which

27:43

you know it has led to some criticism that

27:46

is based on moral outrage

27:48

rather than evidence or facts

27:50

or statistics. Couldn't you have had that

27:52

conversation with your financial partners

27:55

before, you know, if they were all happy? Couldn't

27:58

you have gone to your financial partners? I said, we could

28:02

we have handled it in a different way. Years

28:04

of course we could. Um,

28:07

but um, We're

28:10

happy where we ended. Huh. At

28:13

the end of our interviews, the Stoke Please

28:16

took us to their office. In there

28:18

was another brother wearing a wooly

28:20

jumper that looked like an early Christmas

28:22

present. There were ducks wandering

28:25

around a patio, crooked trinkets

28:27

on the desks. It seemed

28:30

just a setting for a charming family

28:32

business. But for only

28:34

fans. Something

28:37

didn't quite seem right, and

28:39

it wasn't. We'll be right

28:41

back Act

28:48

three, reading the fine print.

28:51

Within three weeks of us visiting, the

28:54

Stoke Please had left only fans.

28:57

Tim stepped down as chief executive

28:59

and guy and the rest of the family followed.

29:02

Just like that, the Stoke Please

29:05

had gone. We'll admit

29:07

it. We were confused. We

29:10

called them to ask what happened. We

29:12

didn't get much of an answer. Now,

29:16

the story of the Stoke These and only fans

29:18

that you heard earlier, that was all

29:20

true, the family business,

29:22

the way only fans democratized porn.

29:25

But we later learned that was only

29:27

one side of the story. Like

29:30

looking at a movie sets from a single

29:32

camera. It didn't explain

29:35

why the Stokelees left only fans, or

29:38

that crazy hokey cokey

29:40

over banning porn, or

29:43

why they sold their company when it was

29:45

doing so well in twenty eighteen. To

29:48

figure out what was going on, we

29:51

need to rewind and look out

29:53

of shot, and that starts

29:55

with the current owner, the guy who

29:57

bought only Fans from the Stoke Lease in

30:00

twenty eighteen. Now, plenty

30:02

of investors have attempted to buy

30:04

only Fans over the years, mainstream

30:07

investors. But when the Stoke

30:10

Lease sold, it was to a man called

30:12

Leo Radvinski, a

30:14

forty year old Ukrainian American

30:17

who made his fortune in the

30:19

pawn industry. We'd

30:21

love to have spoken to him, but he declined

30:24

he's not one for publicity. Here's

30:27

what Tim told us about Leo when

30:29

we visited. You know, he's been absolutely

30:33

joy to work with and such

30:35

a smart guy, and there's

30:37

a huge reason we are where we are. Remember,

30:41

in twenty eighteen, Only Fans

30:44

was a fast growing business,

30:46

but it hadn't really caught

30:48

fire. The good times were

30:50

ahead. So why

30:52

did the Stoke Lease give it all

30:55

up to Leo Radvinski.

30:58

Tim was kg with his reasons for selling

31:00

only Fans, but he did

31:02

give us a few clues. I mean,

31:04

what I can tell you is it's one of the best

31:07

decisions we made. It's very

31:09

kind of hands on and adds

31:11

so much value to the technical

31:14

part of the business. And then

31:16

he also works to an

31:18

extent on the payments side. We didn't

31:21

think much of it at a time Leo

31:24

os tech. He made his career

31:26

running a live video porn side called

31:28

my Free Camps. But when

31:30

we listened back, we

31:33

realized the intriguing part was

31:35

the second half of that sentence. Tim

31:37

said. Leo also worked on

31:40

the payment side, which

31:42

raises one blindingly obvious

31:45

question. Why was Leo, the

31:47

seasoned pornographer, helping a

31:49

family of bankers with payments?

31:56

So you know, I've been looking

31:58

for an explanation of why the

32:00

Stokely's sold Only Fans. I

32:03

think I found something,

32:07

But I have a little

32:09

confession to make. Yeah, it was that.

32:12

One of my new habits is reading

32:14

the terms and conditions on porn

32:17

sites. The legal fine print.

32:20

Well, you've sent me one. Should I read it

32:22

out loud? Go ahead? So it says

32:24

you may not create, upload,

32:27

post, display, or distribute

32:30

user content that is sexually explicit.

32:33

It doesn't sound like a porn site, right, No.

32:36

Well those are the original

32:38

terms and conditions for only Fans

32:41

from twenty sixteen, So no,

32:43

porn Only Fans didn't allow

32:46

explicit content from the start, nothing exactly,

32:49

and it more or less stayed that way

32:52

for a year and a half. After Only Fans

32:54

launched even though there

32:56

was lots of pawn on the site.

32:59

I mean, this really transformed how

33:01

I understood the whole Only Fans

33:04

venture. It may well have been crucial

33:06

to the entire business model. Was

33:09

claiming to be palm free,

33:12

and if you don't have palm, you don't have

33:14

payment trouble. The Stoke Please could

33:17

benefit from easier, cheaper

33:19

payment processing they'd get

33:22

like any mainstream platform.

33:24

Well that's a big advantage

33:26

in the porn business. I

33:29

mean, Only Fans stood out when it launched

33:31

because it only took a twenty

33:33

percent cut of a performer's earnings,

33:35

when most campsites take an

33:38

average of fifty percent or more.

33:41

So one of the reasons they could

33:43

offer that was cheaper

33:45

payment processing. And so the Stoke Please

33:47

just sidestepped higher costs by

33:50

denying there was any porn on

33:52

the site exactly. It's

33:54

amazing. So when

33:57

did they admit that there was born on the

33:59

side. In the spring of twenty eighteen,

34:02

and that's when the Stoke Please introduced

34:04

a new adult payment processor,

34:07

a different financial service men

34:09

to handle all the explicit

34:11

accounts, presumably a

34:13

much more expensive payment processor.

34:16

And people in the industry told me the

34:19

only fans. Around this time began

34:21

to struggle with payments in particular,

34:24

and within six months, Hey,

34:27

Presto the Stoke please had

34:29

sold only fans. And

34:31

remember Leo is known in

34:33

the pawn business as a master of

34:36

payments. You had to be to

34:38

run at pawn camsite. I mean,

34:40

there's lots of micropayments.

34:42

It's just in the nature of the business. And

34:45

suddenly you think

34:47

of all that, everything that Tim

34:49

said about selling to Leo just

34:51

made a lot more sense when the payments

34:54

side got more difficult they had

34:56

to turn to an expert. What I can tell

34:58

you is it's one of the best decisions we made.

35:00

It's not much value in speculating

35:03

where we'd be if we hadn't done it. We'd

35:05

love to ask Leo how he does

35:07

it, how he his bangs

35:09

and payment processors on side,

35:13

But like most of Pawn's biggest money

35:15

makers, he's not the

35:17

time to give interviews. Neither

35:19

would his new management team, who are

35:22

usually very media friendly. The

35:24

reason is partly Leo's

35:27

vision for the company. He came

35:29

from the porn world, but he always

35:31

saw the mainstream potential of only

35:33

fans. For him,

35:36

that's only fans' future fitness

35:38

instructors and musicians, and that

35:40

explains a lot. When we talk to

35:43

the Stokeleys about the decision to ban

35:45

Pawn last August, it never

35:47

seemed like they really believed

35:49

in it. In reality, it

35:51

was Leo's call to him the

35:54

mainstream promise of only fans was

35:56

not worth risking for Pawn, however

35:59

much money it made. He

36:01

has visions of bringing in mainstream

36:03

investors or even floating only

36:06

Fans on the stock market. Only

36:12

Fans has promised not to ditch porn

36:15

performers again. People like Peppermint

36:17

and her husband Dusty, who

36:19

we heard from earlier in this episode. I

36:21

mean, they say one thing and then a week

36:24

later they say another thing, and it makes one very

36:26

very hard to trust what's

36:28

happening with the site itself. When is this going

36:30

to happen again? So it makes it, you know, very

36:32

precarious. Peppermint and Dusty

36:35

stuck with only Fans because

36:37

it's an important stream of income and

36:40

it didn't seem right to be cutting

36:43

off loyal subscribers. It's felt,

36:45

in some ways like going back to an abusive partner.

36:48

You know, you don't want to really stay there,

36:50

but you're kind of stuck. You don't have a lot of choice.

36:53

I'm hoping that it means only good

36:55

things. You know, maybe Tim Stokely

36:57

was tired of having to

36:59

deal with the credit card companies and

37:01

all the legislation and the rules, So

37:04

handing the reins over to somebody else could

37:07

possibly be a good thing. That's

37:09

my hope. Indeed, there is a

37:11

weird parallel between all the people

37:13

we've spoken to and told you about

37:16

in this episode, Peppermint and

37:18

Dusty, the Stokely family, and

37:20

Leo Radvinski, the pornographer

37:23

trying to go mainstream.

37:25

You could even make a link to Danny, the

37:27

goddess of financial domination, who

37:30

had no way to be tipped by

37:32

her pay pets. What

37:34

all their stories taught us was this, if

37:37

you're not the master of your business's payment

37:39

system, very simply means

37:42

somebody else is in charge. Only

37:45

fans empowered performers

37:47

by giving them away to receive direct

37:50

payments from fans. But

37:52

because only fans doesn't control

37:55

its own payment system, it

37:57

is caught in a bind. It is reliant

38:00

on pornshy payment companies on

38:02

one side to take in money, and

38:04

on pornshy bangs on the other

38:07

to pay it out. That's

38:09

where to real power lies. A finance

38:11

world that seems to have a muddled

38:14

and bizarre relationship with the porn

38:16

industry and the money it brings.

38:19

What does this all mean for porn today?

38:22

That's our next episode, the season

38:24

finale. Instead of the

38:27

government defining

38:29

what is and is not considered

38:31

sexually acceptable, it's

38:33

a corporation. Hot

38:53

Money is a production of The Financial Times

38:55

and Pushkin Industries. It was written

38:57

or reported by me Patrician Elson and

38:59

me Alex Barker. Peter

39:02

Sale is our lead producer and sound

39:04

designer. Edith Russolo is

39:06

our associate producer. Our editor

39:08

is Karen Shakurji. Amanda

39:11

Kwong is our engineer.

39:13

Music composition by Pascal Wise,

39:16

fact checking by Andrea Lopez

39:18

Kusado. Our executive producers

39:21

are Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein.

39:24

Special thanks to Renee Kaplan and Ruler

39:26

Kalov at The Financial Times and Mia

39:28

Lobel, Lital Molad,

39:30

Justine Lang, Julia Barton and

39:33

Jacob Weisberg at Pushkin Industries.

39:36

Thank you to a similar Web for providing our

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