0:02

Postscript media, podcast

0:04

for a changing planet. And

0:07

can you describe your driving your context

0:09

within what you're calling so people couldn't understand

0:11

that the love is still alive?

0:13

I am in the car. We are heading back from

0:15

the inauguration of the new governor of

0:17

Pennsylvania. He's driving me as he should,

0:21

and we're heading home. And then he's off to drive.

0:24

Better than men. High centered high centered. Thank

0:27

you. This

0:32

is hot buttons, a show about the future of fashion

0:34

and culture on changing planet. I'm Christina

0:36

Binkley. I'm a contributing writer at Vogue Business

0:38

in The Wall Street Journal. This week, we

0:40

have the Honor m pleasure of talking with

0:42

Gisele Fetterman, and we can't wait to get

0:45

to know her better. Rachel

0:50

Kimby of Circular Services Group is in New

0:52

York. Rachel, how's it going? It's going great.

0:54

Really excited to be here. I'm trying to

0:56

contain myself. I'm trying to be cool. ZIPSTILL.

0:59

I'm so excited.

1:01

And the CEO of thrifter, Sheila Kim Parker

1:04

joined us from South

1:05

Salem, New York. Hi there.

1:07

I am so so excited. We

1:09

are we're trying to maintain our collective

1:11

cool and composure. You're always composed.

1:15

I can imagine you ever losing them

1:17

voucher. Okay. Let's

1:19

get to it. Jazelle Fetterman just had a

1:21

hell of a year. She has charged through a

1:23

bruising campaign supporting her husband's bid for

1:25

the US senate while deflecting attacks

1:27

from the right with the kind of disarming self

1:29

confidence that she's become something

1:31

of a pop icon. She's been outspoken

1:34

about sustainable fashion, thrifter, and vintage,

1:36

but she's a lot more than that. And she's dedicated

1:39

her life to the kind of service on behalf of those

1:41

in need that we're just in awe and

1:43

so thrilled to have her join us

1:44

today. Welcome to Zelle. Thank you so

1:46

much for having me. You know, I have to

1:48

say that one of the things I I think that

1:51

I I may have been slowing the uptake because I absolutely

1:53

watched every minute of

1:55

you and the senator's campaign. It

1:58

was it was often

2:00

hilarious. The whole grocery store Fetterman

2:02

things. I used to live in in

2:05

Southeastern Pennsylvania, so I'm familiar with

2:07

those grocery stores. But

2:09

it was also You

2:12

know, there were heart rending moments watching

2:14

what was going on with you in the senator's

2:16

health. And and then

2:18

very late in the game, I became familiar

2:20

with the fact that you are really

2:23

into thrifting and reuse. You've made a commitment,

2:25

I believe I've read to where ninety

2:28

percent of your clothing will be

2:30

thrifted or previously worn by somebody

2:32

else. I know this is a

2:34

very small part of what you do in your

2:36

life, but I wonder if you could

2:38

just start by telling us a little bit about how

2:40

you came to this point and how long you've been doing this?

2:42

Sure. So I've been doing it forever. You know, came to

2:44

this country as a young immigrant, my family was

2:46

undocumented from fifteen years.

2:49

And my mom who in Brazil had

2:51

a PhD in ran hospitals here, she was

2:53

a domestic partner, and she mostly

2:55

claimed houses and hotels. And

2:57

several of those homes had kids who were

2:59

just a little bit older than So I

3:01

would get their hand me downs, which for me it was

3:03

Christmas. I mean, I loved it. I've always

3:05

loved hands me downs. So

3:08

I have a very special memory

3:10

of that time. It was I remember

3:12

all the kids in school had Benoton track

3:14

suits. And they were, like, eighty

3:16

dollars. And I was, like, we could never. And then

3:18

my mom brings home a Bennon check

3:20

suit, and it was red, and it was

3:23

fabulous. So I have, you know, really

3:25

happy memories from that time. I never looked at

3:27

it as a negative. It was a very positive.

3:30

But, you know, learning about it's

3:32

mostly women who work in these factories who

3:34

really suffer and how awful

3:36

fast fashion is for not only

3:38

the people but for the environment, It

3:41

was something I've always just stuck with, you

3:43

know, and I had, like, my childhood part

3:45

that was a great connection for

3:47

me. So for me, I always choose

3:49

second hand parts. I think it's a lot more fun.

3:52

It's a lot more interesting, and

3:54

it's a win win for for everything.

3:56

I also love knowing that someone else wore

3:58

what I'm wearing. Like,

4:01

I've won that they had these great memories

4:04

in this piece. Or I'll make

4:06

new memories in it. So I I

4:08

always loved used clothes.

4:10

Where do you shop all over from

4:13

the goodwill to, like, the

4:15

hidden church markets to

4:17

thread up or the real real.

4:20

I love the exchange places. I

4:23

love it all. I love the challenge

4:25

of thinking I won't find anything in

4:27

this place, but I will find something

4:29

amazing in there. Well, I hear

4:31

Washington, D. C. Has some really

4:33

great thrift jobs. I

4:35

noticed I'm just curious about the reaction that

4:37

you get when you well, for instance, on your first

4:39

day in the sent it and when

4:41

you posted a photograph of yourself in

4:43

a blue a blue

4:45

dress that I think you said you paid twelve dollars

4:47

for. I'm pretty sure I saw that on vogue dot

4:49

com. I think it really got picked

4:51

up. So what's the reaction you get?

4:54

Do you think that people are starting

4:57

to follow you as kind of an influencer?

4:59

I think I mean, one I think people are

5:02

mostly, like, really curious. Like, oh,

5:04

you could find nice things. You know, like, oh,

5:06

I don't like that dress. Found that in a place, so I

5:08

think a question as a perspective of what

5:10

they thought you'd find in these spaces.

5:12

But what was funnier was it

5:14

was like day three of orientation and

5:16

someone in the hallway comes and says, I saw the

5:18

piece about your thrifter dresses.

5:20

Your outfit today And I

5:22

was like, it was actually from a swapped me,

5:25

that I was wearing in, like, day three.

5:27

I went to, like, some random college

5:29

swap me that I like, invited to. And

5:32

I was like, that's too much. I think the world's not

5:34

ready for swap me

5:36

plugging.

5:38

I know. Have you converted

5:40

your your kids and your husband into the thrifting

5:43

lifestyle or not

5:43

yet? So my daughter and well,

5:46

only, like, goodwill, the bins.

5:48

Like, that's her favorite place in the world are the VINs.

5:50

She just loves moments and events.

5:52

And my youngest will wear anything I talk and

5:54

see. My oldest is fourteen and

5:56

you know, he's more specific particular

5:58

on what he chooses. But my daughter

6:00

will only wear goodwill

6:02

bins, like, that's her go to. Fourteen

6:06

is a that's a that's when the peer pressure

6:08

really kicks in. Yeah. And he's really

6:10

cool and, like, you know, if you

6:12

think her, I don't think he'd be influenced by that. I think

6:14

he just likes a big look.

6:16

So, like, I found the purple thing that I brought

6:18

home that he was like, okay, I wear that.

6:20

But mostly, he wants to find exactly what

6:22

he's looking for whereas I'm much more

6:24

adventurous. On what

6:26

I find. I love the stories

6:28

about you wearing thrifted to your

6:30

prom and to your wedding. Because

6:33

now thrifting has become so mainstream,

6:36

but, you know, I feel like, you

6:38

know, even ten years ago, it it wasn't as

6:40

popular in Notion. And so the

6:42

fact that you embrace it then is so great.

6:44

And I also love, you know, whenever you talk about

6:46

thrifting, It's not just

6:48

about the climate impact,

6:50

which is massive and the waste impact, which is

6:52

massive, but you always bring up the people involved

6:55

no surprise Gisele your orientation

6:57

around human rights. It's amazing that

6:59

you've you've been able to kind of be

7:01

such an evangelist and a champion

7:03

for secondhand. Thank

7:05

you. I mean, I love women. All my heroes

7:07

are women, and and to think that I

7:09

can pick something to wear that has directly

7:11

hurt women. I just can't do

7:13

it, you know? I just can't do it. And

7:16

it's fun. Right? Because you

7:18

have that great quota. We have to have bread and

7:20

roses both, and it's and, you

7:22

know, I love that also that you advocate for the for

7:24

the fun and joy of things like not everything has to

7:26

be serious. It can be something that we just do to

7:28

make ourselves feel a little bit better, to find joy in

7:30

this world. Fashion can also just be

7:31

fun. It's so much fun. And I remember,

7:34

so Pennsylvania has this big political

7:36

event called PE Society. It takes place

7:38

every December in New York. Where

7:40

everyone comes closer to Pennsylvania to

7:42

New York and they attend these parties and they

7:45

network. And I wore it was a

7:47

dress from an exchange place. It's

7:49

this beautiful sea New York dress

7:51

and I was in the elevator and it will then

7:53

said, oh my god, I I have the same dress

7:55

and she was from Pittsburgh. I said, did

7:57

you sell it to Avalon Exchange? Because then

7:59

that's what I bought it. No

8:01

way. Uh-huh. And she was like,

8:03

no. I think they stole my closet. But there

8:05

was, like, that moment. So she was, like, like,

8:07

what right.

8:10

There was that moment of, like, wait, are

8:12

you bragging? You know, that

8:14

And I am. I mean, it's a flex.

8:18

So I think I've got enough people off

8:20

guard at first. Now I think they expensive.

8:23

Gisele, I I wanna

8:25

come back to to thrifting and

8:27

your evangelism of

8:29

of resale and and back up a little

8:31

bit about I mean, for us

8:33

that that's the the funnest thing to talk to

8:35

you about, but I wanna put in perspective like

8:37

how much you've accomplished and

8:41

additional sort of causes you're

8:43

interested in and and you're a

8:45

nutritionist by trade. Is is

8:47

that right? So following the footsteps

8:49

of your mother, that's amazing. And you you

8:51

launched a nonprofit that has

8:53

provided over twenty four million pounds

8:55

of food. To those in

8:57

need and saving

8:59

food from landfills, so so

9:01

you tied those two together. And

9:04

it feels like you've made the

9:07

position you're in now, your

9:09

own. And you're

9:11

able to draw attention

9:13

to these causes that are close to you, like food and

9:15

security and opening free stores

9:17

in a shipping container

9:19

that I wanna visit so

9:20

badly. It looks like so much fun.

9:22

No. Please accounts. That was

9:24

actually in the it was a landfill shipping

9:26

container. It had been decommissioned as No

9:28

kidding.

9:29

It's so In addition, okay, let me add

9:32

some other things though. Providing access

9:34

to swimming, marijuana legalization,

9:36

LGBTQIA rights,

9:38

and now clothing reuse. You've cofounded

9:41

Freestore fifteen 104.

9:43

Is that right? Food for Good

9:45

PGH and 412 food

9:47

rescue. Do you consider

9:49

yourself an entrepreneur?

9:50

No. I think I think I'm

9:53

really good at venturing

9:55

entrepreneurs. Because like I host

9:57

an entrepreneur program for

9:59

women. I think I'm more than

10:01

confident, but I think I'm really good

10:03

at supporting entrepreneurs. So

10:05

if if that is an entrepreneur very entrepreneurial.

10:07

I think you're an entrepreneur. It

10:10

does. I I had the same

10:12

thought. Your activities to

10:14

now have been very Pennsylvania focused and

10:16

even braddock focused, the town where you

10:18

live. Any thoughts

10:20

now of going national with some

10:22

of these? Freestore has gone national.

10:24

It's been the different

10:26

communities that have reached out. So we have, you

10:28

know, one in a reservation. We

10:31

have, you know, them popped up in different

10:33

places. Nothing specifically branded, but

10:35

I worked and bought them to to

10:37

this place. Foreign food

10:39

rescue is national. We're in

10:41

several cities. I

10:43

really encourage people to dream big, but I've

10:45

never been that person. I

10:47

think and I've analyzed myself in

10:49

therapy to figure out where this comes

10:51

from. But I I think it's that I lived

10:53

in limbo, but I

10:55

lived in limbo for so long being undocumented

10:58

that I didn't know what tomorrow looked like. Right?

11:00

So if people would ask me, like, the

11:02

worst interview question for me was where do

11:04

you your in five years. Because I'm

11:06

like, I don't know. Like

11:08

so I get encouraging young people to

11:10

dream really big, but for me, it was

11:13

always struggle. And what I've learned in

11:15

therapy is that poverty

11:17

and trauma kills their long term

11:19

vision because you're in survival

11:21

for so long. Right. So I'm

11:23

very good at present. Like, I'm

11:25

very good at today. I'm not

11:27

really good at next year or

11:29

like the big planning

11:30

ahead. I'm not very good at that. And everyone

11:32

should go to therapy. Yeah.

11:35

Yeah. It's

11:35

gonna be PSA. What are you

11:37

planning for the next six months? So

11:39

I'm, you know, I'm in the fire academy. I'm

11:42

actually becoming a church on fire. I just

11:44

saw that. That's wild. I

11:46

responded to my first two fires,

11:48

this past Friday. No. Wow.

11:51

And in May, I'll graduate from the

11:53

academy. So I'll do some

11:55

of that. And

11:57

working on you know, I I always wanna

11:59

work on things that are highlighting and bringing

12:01

voices to the historically

12:04

ignored. And that's what I care

12:06

about. It's I think my work will always focus on

12:08

that in some way. But

12:10

I don't know where it'll take me. I

12:12

I'm learning DC now

12:14

and finding my way

12:16

there. And I just I really believe it to

12:18

leave it and, you know, ballooning where you

12:20

are planted. And I been planted in

12:23

different spaces, and I think that's

12:25

on the way to

12:25

bloom. And hopefully, I'm able

12:28

to do that in this new role

12:30

as well. You've said that you enter every room

12:32

wondering who is missing and how we can

12:34

bring them in. I love that and everything that

12:36

you do seems exactly in that

12:38

purpose. What have you found in DC? Who's missing in?

12:40

Who are who do you wanna bring in?

12:42

Or are you bringing? Or is it too

12:43

early? Or is it too early?

12:45

Yeah. It's too

12:47

early. I'm still learning a lot, but I

12:49

would say that, like, my first, you know,

12:51

orientation training, the biggest shock

12:53

to me was, like, If

12:55

someone is being nice to you, they could be a

12:57

foreign information officer. So

12:59

my daughter and I I'm literally,

13:02

like, the friendliest person

13:04

in the world, and I wanna be friends with everyone.

13:06

I want everyone to like me. And I'm

13:08

like, I have to look at everyone. Sideways.

13:11

This is not I'm a pisces. I'm

13:13

a built for

13:14

this. Wow.

13:17

So I'm learning. I would

13:19

like to tell

13:19

you about how you deal with that? Did

13:21

they give you questions? Yeah.

13:24

Be very aware. Like, if someone is at

13:26

coffee every morning, they probably are

13:28

waiting for you and they will slowly

13:30

enter your life and -- Oh my god. --

13:32

gotta get information. And it happened

13:35

that way. It's like a real dream.

13:37

So, you know, I have a lot to

13:39

learn, but the spouses have

13:41

been really wonderful and welcoming

13:43

and the gays have,

13:45

you know, welcomed me with open arms.

13:49

So I'm making friends. Hopefully none of

13:51

them

13:51

were. Or an information office first.

13:53

I have to say, I absolutely love,

13:56

you know, you you have at the top of your

13:58

Twitter profile, this quote, oh, that

14:00

gentleness. How far more potent it is than

14:02

force. You've also talked about being

14:04

radically soft, and I

14:06

love this idea that

14:09

nice does not correlate with

14:11

being weak, that you can be

14:13

tough and powerful and also be

14:15

nice. How did that kind

14:17

of floss a fee and

14:19

and and point of view evolve for you over your

14:20

life? Because I'm sure that it was

14:23

an evolution. Definitely. I've always

14:25

been really vulnerable. Right? I

14:27

really believe like, stay soft.

14:29

It's it's my voice will shake.

14:31

If I'm in a situation, I will probably

14:33

start crying if someone is mean to me. But that's

14:35

okay. And it took me a long time to learn that

14:37

was okay. Like, I wouldn't be really

14:39

uncomfortable if people would call me, like, an activist or

14:41

an advocate because didn't

14:43

feel like looked or sounded like

14:45

to me what an activist was.

14:48

I'm very gentle and very soft and

14:50

I've learned the time that it is a strength

14:52

of mine. It is a vulnerability

14:54

that allows me to see things

14:56

differently and respond differently.

14:58

And I remember, like, crying about something

15:00

with my grandma, which happened all the time. I was

15:02

always crying. Like, give

15:05

love because that's what's inside

15:07

of you. Like, that's what's in there. And what

15:09

you're getting from other people, it's what's

15:11

inside of them. And it it was

15:13

like a very simple piece of wisdom, but it

15:15

was a really good perspective for me.

15:17

And then one day, I was crying about something else. And my

15:19

grandma was like, she's actually a look at you. You are so

15:21

cute. Who cares? That's

15:23

all you mean to him. And

15:25

I was like, okay, grandma. So I hear

15:27

that voice. You know, she's passed a sentence,

15:29

but I always hear her voice. Like, she just

15:31

said, you're so cute. Who cares if these people

15:33

are making? It's so important to have

15:35

that voice in your head. It's and

15:38

I have to say I had a personal experience

15:40

with you before

15:42

you arrived at where you are a few years

15:44

ago, where you were soft and gentle

15:46

with me. Yes. I sent

15:48

you a re I was running a

15:50

business of excess inventory and return

15:52

mystery boxes and sent

15:54

you a mystery box and you posted it

15:57

online and you responded

15:59

personally to me and you were so kind

16:01

I did not expect a

16:02

response.

16:03

Thank you. I really you know, I do all my social

16:05

media, all my emails. I've never had an assistant.

16:08

Where do you have do you seem to fit thirty

16:10

six hours in a twenty four hour period.

16:12

Yeah. I'm I'm very confused. And

16:15

two dogs, ZABHD

16:17

is definitely my superpower. And

16:20

I thrive under, like,

16:22

chaos. Like, my inbox at all times

16:24

has, like, three thousand unread

16:27

four hundred on med techs and anything

16:29

else less than that would be too

16:32

normal. And I probably wouldn't be able

16:34

to function

16:34

So, DHDHD is definitely

16:37

my superpower. Howard Bauchner: Can you talk

16:39

a little bit about because

16:41

speaking of unread letters and emails, I've

16:43

always been curious about this your your you've

16:45

been asked this to death, but your

16:48

the way you met John and just that

16:50

story, but also I'm really curious,

16:52

you know, how

16:54

did he respond? How did he even

16:56

find a letter or

16:58

tell us

16:58

more? And was it an actual

17:01

Fetterman? describes it as like like snail

17:03

mail. But I I only do handwritten And

17:06

I still put hearts over my

17:08

eyes and It was definitely a handwritten

17:10

letter. I still do all my thing who's

17:12

handwritten form. I think the

17:14

art of handwriting a letter is an

17:16

art we're losing and I don't wanna

17:18

lose it. So I read an article and

17:20

I'm going through its funnel, so I might lose you guys

17:22

for a minute. I

17:24

read an article about this

17:26

young mayor who was working to revitalize this

17:28

kind of forgotten city.

17:30

And these are all the things I care about. Right?

17:32

Like a city that

17:34

had contributed so much to this country. It's

17:36

the reason skyscrapers exist

17:38

because of the steel mill in

17:41

this community. And it gave so

17:43

much to America, and then it

17:45

was left behind, and it just

17:47

felt so wrong. And

17:49

just like how can a person be discarded?

17:51

How can a place be discarded?

17:54

And I just I read that story. I felt the

17:56

connection. I felt what a

17:58

good guy, and I went on about my

18:00

life. And then a couple weeks

18:02

later, that name came up to me

18:04

again. Braddock, and it was talking about

18:06

that the seal that built the Brooklyn

18:08

Bridge came from

18:10

this area. And I'm

18:12

Brazil, Gisele believe signs

18:14

and I thought this was a sign. So I

18:17

said I'm gonna write a letter and reach out and

18:19

again I do a lot of letters. I write to

18:21

people to thank them to say I

18:23

enjoyed meeting them. I have like

18:25

an hour dedicated a day just to write

18:27

letters, mostly thank you letters. I I

18:29

buy a lot of stamps. And

18:32

I I sent off a letter. The letter

18:34

went to his to like

18:36

the borrower manager who eventually passed

18:38

it on to him. It called me

18:40

when he received it. It was actually on his birthday.

18:42

I remember that because it was he said it's my

18:44

birthday today. And he said, well,

18:46

why don't you come visit? If you're

18:48

interested in seeing the town. So

18:51

we planned I I was really busy at the time.

18:53

He was really busy, so I came to visit, like,

18:55

three months later. of

18:57

course, you fall madly in love with me when I

19:00

arrived. Of course. Of course. Obviously. But

19:02

that's how it happens. That

19:06

is

19:06

wild. So anybody single out there who's

19:08

listening to this, get rid of your Tinder account

19:10

and start writing

19:13

hear you, Christina. Noted.

19:16

And we

19:17

have a lot of great papyrus. And

19:19

then a

19:19

year later, your marriage How did the proposal

19:21

happen? Was it love at first sight? It

19:23

wasn't love at first sight. I definitely fell in

19:25

love with Braddock first. I saw this

19:27

community that, you

19:30

know, ninety percent of the

19:32

people left. Right? And ten percent

19:34

stayed behind. And I just thought, like, what

19:36

strength did it fuck? To

19:38

stay behind and to fight for your community.

19:40

And I just really fell in love with

19:42

Braddock. I've only ever lived in really

19:44

popular cities, big cities. I

19:46

never knew that abandonment existed.

19:48

Like, I've never seen in a city that

19:50

was abandoned. So I knew

19:52

that it was a really good man. Like, I was like, this

19:54

is a good art and that's how I left

19:56

that visit. And then we stayed in

19:58

touch. He, you know, checked in to make

20:00

sure I had arrived home because I had

20:02

driven in. And then I invited him to

20:04

come visit my work. So he came

20:06

out to New York and New Jersey and

20:08

and visited my work, and then it's about from

20:10

there. But I believe

20:12

he wasn't first site. I

20:14

mean, I don't know. Well, he did go

20:16

visit you at work when he was a mayor of

20:18

the town and presumably quite

20:20

busy. So something motivated

20:22

that visit. And I assume

20:23

your kids are in school in Braddock. You'll

20:26

be going back and forth. How are you

20:28

gonna work out this I

20:30

will remain in Braddock. My mom lives very close and

20:32

is very supportive of the kids.

20:34

I'll probably be in DC once or twice

20:37

a month. You know,

20:40

scheming, organizing, thinking what I'm gonna do there.

20:43

And he'll be home on

20:44

weekends, so mostly be gone during the week

20:46

as they vote pretty much every

20:48

week. Yeah. So going back

20:50

to the the thrift topic, I

20:53

I've sort of watched your journey and and

20:55

a lot of the things we talk about on on

20:57

the show and in in

20:59

fashion and sustainable sustainable

21:01

fashion in general is the fact that

21:03

awareness and consumer awareness along with

21:06

policy maker education

21:08

is so important, such a

21:10

touchstone. When we think about any

21:12

sort of systemic change, we

21:14

might want to see. And I'm I'm

21:16

leading a coalition of organizations

21:18

fueling a circular economy called

21:20

American Circular Textiles Group.

21:22

Our members are actually the real real thread up,

21:24

Brent the runway, and more,

21:27

Castle. So

21:28

together, we're working to advance domestic

21:31

circularity Sheila is a member of

21:33

Thrilling. We're

21:33

very early on, but

21:36

a lot of the things we're thinking about

21:38

is how to lend awareness

21:41

and visit to exactly what you're doing,

21:43

affordability, sustainability, like,

21:45

thrifting being the

21:47

first choice when

21:49

you think about buying something quote unquote

21:51

new for your wardrobe.

21:55

So you're doing such a

21:57

public service. By just existing and talking about

21:59

your love for thrifting. It's

22:01

it's just a tremendous

22:04

service. When

22:06

you think about the future

22:08

of and I think I

22:10

think and I'm sure you think you see a

22:12

world where everyone thinks Let's

22:14

drop second hand first. First

22:16

and foremost. Would you think

22:18

of any policies in

22:21

particular that would support

22:23

that?

22:24

I've been thinking I've been working on policy in regards

22:26

to food waste. Right? Because one

22:28

day, I would always say, I hate politics

22:30

and I do. But I

22:33

realized that all my nonprofits exist

22:35

because of policy failures.

22:38

Right? So that's when I made the

22:40

connection. I was like, hey, if we're doing a better job,

22:42

like, I don't need to exist doing this

22:44

work. So with food waste, I kind of

22:46

have that pretty mapped out, what that can

22:48

look like. I will think about what

22:50

this looks like for this work. But if

22:52

you need a mouthpiece --

22:54

Yeah. -- for any support, I would be honored

22:57

to to help with anything that you're doing with

22:58

that. Plus, I know someone in the Senate office

23:00

so I can, you know, make an

23:03

introduction and feel

23:05

Thank you, giselle.

23:06

But it's time to have the conversation.

23:09

Can you share a little bit

23:10

on the food waste side? I'm so

23:12

curious. Sure. Absolutely. So France,

23:14

in France, it's illegal to throw out

23:16

good food. So if you're a grocery store

23:18

or a restaurant, if you have

23:20

good food, it's illegal to the started.

23:22

In America, it is not. Some states

23:25

have tighter laws. Massachusetts have a

23:27

good law around food waste. But

23:29

what we're looking at is that if you have

23:31

good food, you have

23:33

to donate it to a nonprofit. So

23:35

the goal would be for restaurants,

23:38

warehouses, grocery stores to be matched

23:40

directly to a nonprofit. And

23:42

so that's their first place to

23:44

go. Right now, because there's

23:46

no plan, you know, who's

23:48

gonna bring the food somewhere in any

23:50

cases, they just started out and The other

23:52

issue in Pennsylvania is that garbage

23:54

is really cheap. It's so

23:56

cheap that other states bring their

23:58

garbage here. So there's not a second

24:00

five. There's no initiative for them

24:02

to be like, oh, well, garbage is cheap

24:04

to scrub it all out, but

24:06

there are laws that we can path that can

24:08

really cut down in the food waste that we see.

24:10

Currently, it's forty percent. So

24:12

forty percent of food is wasted, one

24:14

in six, one is seven

24:16

is food

24:16

insecure. I was a math major. It

24:19

doesn't add up. We have to do

24:21

better. It's shocking.

24:24

And I I think, you it speaks to what we talked

24:26

about earlier, which is your

24:29

determination to make

24:31

this a better place for

24:33

a better world for everybody. You

24:35

have this great quote. If I can't bring you with

24:37

me, I'm not going. And

24:39

we've talked about all the incredible work

24:41

you did leading and starting all

24:43

these nonprofits. I

24:46

loved what you did with the swimming

24:49

pool at the lieutenant

24:51

governor's

24:51

mansion. Would you mind sharing that story?

24:54

Sure. So when, you know, my husband comes with tenant governor,

24:56

I'm learning this new space

24:58

and we learned that the role comes

25:00

with the man lieutenant governors

25:03

mansion. We're one of the few states that

25:05

still had a mansion for the governor and

25:07

the fellow governor. I thought it

25:09

was obnoxious because, like, I would

25:11

never live in a taxpayer funded

25:14

mansion. So I'm like, we don't want

25:16

that mansion. They were actually only second family in

25:18

the history of Pennsylvania to reject

25:20

living in the mansion. Wow. And it

25:22

came with a gardener and a chef

25:24

and I can't So John probably

25:26

would've benefited from

25:26

that. And

25:28

I can't do everything. I'm like,

25:31

I don't want this mansion, but

25:33

it comes with a pool. Big,

25:35

big I want the pool. And

25:37

the vision was that we would open it to

25:39

the public and teach some lessons

25:41

in water safety And

25:44

we would provide the

25:46

services to children who

25:48

historically have not had access to

25:50

swimming. And imagine me, like, brand

25:52

new second lady marching into

25:54

a room with all these attorneys in

25:56

government saying, hey, I have this

25:58

idea. Let's open up this school

26:00

and make it public and

26:02

they were really patient with me

26:04

and made it happen and

26:06

then it became the people's pool. And for

26:09

the last four years, thousands

26:11

of young people from Pennsylvania have

26:13

learned how to swim have felt welcome in a

26:15

swimming pool, have felt welcome in a

26:17

governmental space, have learned

26:19

to swim. Any idea what's

26:21

happening to it now? So we

26:23

made sure that no lieutenant governor could ever

26:25

live in this mansion again because there's no

26:27

more mansion. It's

26:30

now a Fetterman

26:33

building, which is great.

26:35

But the pool, we're not sure what the future will

26:37

be of the pool. But we did have four

26:40

amazing mirrors and we challenged the

26:42

idea of it's always been this

26:44

way. It can't be any

26:46

difference, but it can be

26:48

In particular, gizelle, you've talked about swimming comes with

26:50

a painful legacy of racial segregation

26:52

and that black kids

26:55

are three times more likely to die from drowning because of

26:57

it. And so, you know, you've been

27:00

such a powerful advocate for

27:03

Qual particularly through a race lens as you've

27:05

experienced. Unfortunately, we still

27:07

have violent strains of racism in the country.

27:09

Can you talk a little bit about

27:11

how you are doing, how your family is

27:13

doing, hopefully it's the minority of

27:15

your experiences these days, but we know

27:17

that there's still some

27:18

ugly, ugly behaviors out

27:21

there. Definitely. And, you know, what's what's

27:23

been sad, but also like I go

27:25

back to my grandma and my mind,

27:27

I get more hate mail than

27:29

my husband does. And for years, it was

27:31

my eyebrows. Like, do something about

27:34

those eyebrows. They're too ethnic, you

27:36

know, for for this statement. Most women would

27:38

kill for your eyebrows. And well,

27:41

thank you. But but yeah. I mean, I get, like,

27:43

ten times. No exaggeration of

27:45

of the hate that he does.

27:49

Simply for that. And I've learned

27:51

not to take it personally. Like, it's been

27:53

a process of learning to say,

27:55

no, it's not you. It's this

27:57

idea, it's this fear. But

27:59

I get to share my story. Like, the first

28:01

thing I tweeted when he won lieutenant governor was, hey,

28:03

Ben, so we needed your second lady, was a

28:05

farmland document of immigrant. felt so good to say

28:07

it out loud. And, you know, to

28:09

be able to put a face on This

28:12

is what it looks like. These are real people. These

28:14

are kids who go to school with your

28:16

kids. So I think I will always

28:18

be that little bit scared of the knock

28:20

on the door. If I'm not

28:22

expecting guests because I could

28:24

be deported, I will never lose

28:28

that part of me. It's something that's

28:30

very much always there.

28:32

And I think it gives me a

28:34

different perspective, a different lens and into

28:36

how I see things. But, yeah, I mean, I had that experience at

28:38

the grocery store and these

28:41

things still happen, but it

28:43

I think it showed the world like, I was a second lady in

28:45

Pennsylvania when that happens. Like, it

28:48

it doesn't matter where you are, what

28:50

you've achieved, some

28:52

people will always see you as inferior.

28:54

You know, I wonder if you could share a little bit

28:56

about how you internally

28:58

and emotionally deal with that because

29:01

you know, you're certainly not

29:03

alone in receiving death threats

29:05

and hate mail. And, you

29:07

know, with social media,

29:10

it's shocking how

29:12

often that happens to people.

29:14

And based on who they are, what their professions

29:16

are, it's all over. And it's a

29:18

terrifying experience when

29:20

it happens somebody. So tell me a little bit about how you

29:22

process that to

29:24

go on and you keep such a positive

29:25

attitude. You you know, your your whole

29:28

being is so positive

29:31

outwardly. And even as a mom, you

29:33

know, we we my

29:35

kid's school still has swastikas

29:37

drawn on them you know, every other

29:39

month and and, you

29:41

know, parents all across this country constantly

29:43

have to deal with their kids coming home with --

29:44

Yep. -- incidents around racism. Right.

29:47

Oh, I'm so sorry. You could have to see that. I

29:50

mean, I cry a lot. I think that

29:52

is a part of my process. It's

29:54

trying. But also, you

29:56

know, I've learned not to take it personally.

29:59

Right. And I also

30:01

try to think of, like, the

30:03

human side not that there was of an excuse, but I

30:05

try to think of that one time. This was a

30:07

child, a perfect little child that was born into the

30:09

world, into a home filled

30:11

with pates. Into a home who taught them to feel

30:13

these things and to believe these things.

30:15

I do try to think of that.

30:17

And It allows me

30:19

to, I think, have really difficult conversations

30:21

with people, but to also try to see

30:23

them as as humans. So I've

30:25

had conversations when people have said to me.

30:28

Well, you, you know, you do such great

30:30

things. I don't have an issue with you as an

30:32

immigrant. It's the other ones.

30:34

Wow. And, like, how do

30:36

I have this conversation? Like, how can I

30:38

reach this person who

30:40

somehow I'm I passed to them than

30:42

everyone else does. I've had hope to say

30:44

to me on the campaign trail. Well, you

30:46

don't look like an undocumented person. You

30:48

don't look like one of those. You're

30:50

right? So I mean, like, I cry all

30:52

the way home and I feel dirty and

30:55

picky and drained,

30:57

but I have to use that opportunity

31:00

to try to open a conversation

31:02

to try to reach a place in their mind or

31:04

their heart where they can try to think

31:06

differently. And that only

31:08

happens having those relays of people conversations. You

31:11

know, now it doesn't happen because I think people

31:13

pretty much know who we are. But

31:15

for for so many years, everyone thought I

31:17

was the babysitter. I was always demanding when I

31:19

was out with my kids. Oh, for god's sake. Wow.

31:21

No one believed there were my kids, whose

31:24

kids IDs are you taking white kids into your roster? And I was like, I

31:26

can't handle these because I don't want

31:28

anymore. There's been

31:30

some really funny moments. I mean, not

31:32

funny, but I I have to make

31:34

it that way. And one of the best ones

31:37

was we were hosting an event at

31:39

our home. It was like this catered,

31:41

book signing, And there were all these guests that

31:43

came in. And I my house

31:45

was full of people, so I got a glass of

31:47

wine and I went to hide off in a pantry to

31:49

drink alone. And

31:51

a woman came up to me and said,

31:53

I saw what he did, and I'm gonna tell mister

31:56

Oh, he thought it was like a stack. Oh my

31:58

god. And And and I'm not

32:00

snarky or confrontational, but in that moment, it must

32:02

have been the line. I was like, please

32:04

don't tell him. I don't wanna get

32:06

fired. And I

32:10

did that because I knew that in the

32:11

next, like, ten minutes, I had to welcome

32:13

all these people

32:14

tonight. Oh my god. So ten minutes

32:16

later, my husband and I get in front of everyone and

32:18

say thank you for coming to our home and

32:20

being here. And She was obviously

32:23

mortified, came over apologized,

32:25

and and I think that was a much more important

32:27

lesson that she learned that day.

32:29

Than if I had handled that

32:32

differently. Right? Like, I was at a pool with

32:34

the kids and speaking Portuguese

32:36

with them, my children are bilingual and

32:38

this like young shit, beautiful

32:40

mom is like, how cool

32:42

that you teach their language? And I

32:44

was like, wow. Thank you. Like, I really appreciate

32:47

that. She's like, when I was looking to hire

32:49

help, I couldn't find anyone who

32:51

spoke another language. They're so lucky

32:53

to have you. And I and

32:56

I said, oh, thank you. I will make it be around.

32:58

I understand. We will I said that because

33:00

anyone with tiny kids

33:03

know that kids are gonna say mom a thousand

33:06

times. And that's what

33:08

it took. It's like four seconds for my

33:10

kids to yell. Mom mom

33:13

mom, and she came over and said,

33:15

I'm so sorry. Like, I I don't know why

33:17

I assumed. But so

33:19

I think I think every opportunity is an opportunity for

33:21

both parties to walk away with race and

33:23

dignity and that lessons

33:25

can be taught in ways that are really

33:27

gentle too. And I

33:29

don't have a different tone. Like, I

33:31

I couldn't be mean if I

33:33

wanted to. It doesn't exist in me.

33:35

So I've tried to find power

33:38

in this little bird voice

33:40

I have and and still

33:42

be effective

33:43

somehow. Well, it's it's clearly

33:46

a fact active. I mean, your your husband won

33:48

all sixty seven counties in Pennsylvania,

33:50

and they they know who you are.

33:52

And that was the first time in

33:54

thrifter. That's happened. And

33:57

then then while he was in the

33:59

hospital and I'm so sorry

34:01

that that happened and I'm so

34:04

relieved that that result was

34:06

positive because you saved his life, that you

34:08

saved his life, and that you knew

34:10

what signs to

34:12

look for. But only forty is before the primary when

34:14

he won. You were basically and

34:16

you've described it as having to act as

34:20

a surrogate. And the response was

34:22

because of the way you handled yourself,

34:24

really incredible, I think. And

34:28

what but what was that

34:30

like for

34:30

you? It's not every day you're

34:33

just asked to just step

34:35

in for someone and act as a

34:37

surrogate policymaker. It was

34:40

pretty wild. I mean, it all happened very

34:42

fast and This is

34:44

a person who would never

34:46

sign up for this, but it was really

34:48

easy in that moment because I love him

34:50

and because we believe in the same

34:52

thing. So It was easy to share his message while he

34:54

was recovering, but, you know,

34:56

having a stroke nationally

34:58

with the world watching and

35:02

having little kids that, you know, I had to tell my kids about

35:04

four minutes before the entire world

35:06

knew that their father had suffered

35:09

his stroke. So It was -- Yeah.

35:11

-- it was a lots of manage,

35:14

but, you know, we made it through and, you

35:16

know, we were no different than any other family

35:18

who goes for health crisis.

35:20

It's just we went through it under the lens of of the world

35:22

watching. Well, it led to people talking

35:24

about you sometimes, sometime

35:26

running for office. You say

35:29

you don't have any interest. Never. Never.

35:32

She

35:32

said no.

35:33

Never. You just

35:36

I don't know if you still have family in

35:39

Brazil, but obviously, you're still very close to

35:42

your home country, and

35:44

we were obviously all shocked

35:48

and to see the about

35:50

the insurrection on January eighth

35:52

clearly inspired

35:54

by our own America's

35:56

own attempted insurrection on

35:59

January sixth of last

36:02

year. Was it last year? God. Two years

36:04

ago. Two years ago. Fueled

36:06

by white nationalists in our country.

36:08

How are you? If you

36:10

still have friends and family there, how

36:13

are they doing? How is yeah.

36:16

How are you feeling about it all?

36:17

It was devastating. I mean, my family's all

36:20

still there. My mom is here, but my

36:22

father, my uncle and my cousins are all

36:24

still in Brazil. Thankfully none

36:26

would have participated in

36:28

such a thing. But it was heartbreaking

36:31

to watch. I think we're still covering from January sixth.

36:33

I think many of us still have PTSD

36:35

from that day and to see that

36:37

happen in my country -- in

36:39

both my countries.

36:42

Was just devastating. You know, growing up, there was always a joke America.

36:44

Brazil always copies America. Right? Brazil's always

36:46

trying to copy America. And, I mean,

36:48

we did it with the president.

36:50

We did it with the sense direction. And I think the

36:52

message should be we wanna copy all the good things, not

36:56

not this stuff. So it was it was

36:58

very sad to watch. I lived in in the

37:00

capital for a couple of years

37:02

and toward all the

37:04

buildings and just so much

37:06

history was destroyed,

37:08

the devastating. I was glad

37:10

to see the way they rounded

37:12

up the interaction that's right on

37:15

the spot and put them

37:16

under, I think, they in

37:17

some weird We can we can learn

37:19

from that too from that. Exactly.

37:21

We're not here. Yeah. We we do things a little

37:23

differently Gisele it

37:24

comes to that accountability. Yeah.

37:27

I'm just so grateful

37:30

you've spent this time with us

37:32

today and been so, you you know, open

37:34

to all of our prodding questions.

37:38

And I I just wanna encourage you though though you don't need it keep

37:40

on doing all the work you're doing

37:42

and stay yourself and

37:46

know that there's so many people rooting

37:48

for you and rooting for your husband and

37:50

and ignore the haters because

37:52

I can guarantee you they're many

37:55

more people even though the haters are

37:57

louder, that are -- Sometimes -- in

37:59

front of you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I

38:01

have it. I feel like I have three new

38:03

friends, and I'll be in New York City under the sun. So

38:06

we should go ahead. We got here. I'm in LA. We

38:08

gotta come out to LA. I got actually,

38:10

I got a flight to Washington DC. I have a fantastic

38:12

visit there. I have one last question for you

38:15

though, Jazelle, because I keep reading articles

38:17

that describe you as petite. And

38:19

I keep seeing photographs of you standing

38:21

deep next to people like

38:23

the vice president of the United States and you're

38:25

taller than she is. So how tall

38:27

are you and why do people keep

38:29

saying your petite? So I'm

38:32

five, nine and a half. And --

38:34

Whoa. -- even though yeah.

38:36

No. Everyone thinks I'm so petite.

38:38

It's like my my husband.

38:40

It's a a towel over.

38:43

That's it. So he really

38:45

makes everyone look very short, but everyone who needs

38:47

me to, like, Oh my

38:49

god. You're so tall. I can't believe it. It's funny.

38:51

My favorite is your approach taking pictures with

38:54

him that you will always favor the

38:56

outfit

38:57

over keeping his head in the don't

38:59

head in anything. The shoes are much more

39:02

important. first

39:04

time he was like, hey,

39:06

you you know, I I think you messed up. Like, you know, I thought

39:09

my shirt is my face has cut off.

39:11

And I was like, no, baby. But

39:16

look at

39:18

the shoes. That's perfect. Thank you

39:21

so much. I

39:23

know. My husband and I're at the same height, and I'm gonna try

39:25

to do that

39:27

too. I

39:31

was, I don't know, that's not gonna work. Maybe

39:34

sideways. Listen, anyway, this has been a great

39:36

pleasure to tell. Thank you

39:38

so much for joining us

39:40

today. I hope to meet

39:42

you. Thank you. Me too. Thank you so

39:44

much for

39:46

having me. That's

39:49

all for the show. Please support us by following us on Twitter at

39:51

hot buttons pod and on Instagram at hot

39:53

buttons dot pod. Or

39:56

send a link to friends or colleagues and go to Apple Spotify and give

39:58

us a rating. We're also streaming on Amazon music

40:00

and you can also find us on YouTube

40:03

now. We really appreciate your

40:06

support. If you wanna email us with story ideas, send a note

40:08

to hot buttons at postscriptaudio

40:10

dot com, or leave us a

40:12

voice mail at our new call in line. It's

40:16

5086225361.

40:18

Hot buttons is hosted by me, Christina

40:20

Binkley, Sheila Kim Parker, and Rachel

40:24

The show is produced by postscript media. Our senior

40:26

editors Anne Bailey, our engineers, Sean

40:28

Marquant, Steven Lacey, Scott Clavinna, and

40:30

Rachel Kibby are our executive producers.

40:34

Postscriptmedia makes podcasts at the intersection of

40:36

climate with culture politics, business,

40:38

and tech. Postscriptmedia is

40:40

supported by Prelude Venture Prelude is a venture

40:42

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40:44

across energy, food, agriculture,

40:46

transportation, logistics, and

40:48

advanced materials. Thanks for joining us. We'll catch up with you

40:50

next week.

40:56

Even her

40:58

freeze frames are nice.

41:02

Yeah. Even There

41:04

you are. Sorry. No more tunnels. No more tunnels.

41:06

No more tunnels. That's okay.