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shopify.com/ system. I'm

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very weiss. And. From The Free

0:33

Press this is honestly. When.

0:37

I met my wife Nellie Bulls She

0:39

was not the Tgf Queen Free Press

0:41

readers know and love today. And if

0:44

you're not yet reading Tgf, pause this

0:46

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sign up right now for the best

0:50

Friday column that exists in the world.

0:54

Okay, now that you're back, where

0:56

many of you might be surprised

0:58

to learn is that Nellie, You're

1:00

very devoted, often unhinged, always funny

1:02

and also little sarcastic News narrator

1:04

was for a very long time

1:06

and certainly when I met her.

1:09

Swimming. Along with the progressive left. Before.

1:12

I met Nellie in twenty eighteen in the

1:14

New York Times cafeteria. She was nothing short

1:16

of a media darling. She. Had

1:18

all the right ideas, she wrote all

1:20

the write stories times readers ate it

1:22

up and her career was soaring. But

1:26

then she let me. Just.

1:28

Getting will kind of cause that's part

1:30

of the story for sure actually. But.

1:33

The other part of it. Is. That Nellie

1:35

is a reporter. And. Being

1:37

a reporter. And great one. Forced.

1:40

Her to confront reality. And.

1:42

The gap between what a

1:44

movement claimed it's aims were

1:47

and what the actual an

1:49

excuse the phrase lived experience

1:51

of their policies actually what's.

1:55

A Here's the thing. People. Usually

1:57

change their minds when they're adults. They.

1:59

Don't Do it. The x politically issues specially

2:01

not when their jobs are at risk,

2:03

especially not when their friends and social

2:06

acceptance and prestigious on the line. And

2:08

if they do, they tend to do

2:10

it quietly. They don't tend

2:12

to change their minds in public. But.

2:15

Nelly did. And. Though she would

2:17

despise the idea of Me calling that

2:20

braves. Trust me. It

2:22

was at it is. Now.

2:25

These new book and it's her

2:27

first book. Morning After the Revolution.

2:29

Dispatches from the Wrong Side of

2:31

History is a collection of stories

2:33

from these past few years. These.

2:36

Past few years in which the world seem

2:38

to have lost its might. These

2:40

are the stories people told her not to write. To

2:44

the said to her don't go to

2:46

Seattle's autonomous zone. There's nothing to see

2:48

their they said don't report on the

2:50

consequences. Of. Hormone therapy for kids? Simply

2:52

not important. They asked

2:54

her why she was curious. About

2:57

the business district in Kenosha that had

2:59

been burned to the ground. But

3:01

as Nelly Rights quotes, I became a

3:04

reporter because I didn't trust authority figures.

3:06

As a reporter, I spent over a

3:08

decade working to follow that curiosity. He

3:11

was hard to suddenly turn that off.

3:13

It was hard to constantly censor what

3:15

I was seeing to close one eye,

3:17

and tried very hard not to notice

3:20

anything inconvenient, especially when there was so

3:22

much to see. It

3:25

was that curiosity that got the job at

3:27

the New York Times in the first place

3:29

was also that same tree ah city the

3:31

got her kicked out of the club but

3:33

I would say that it gave her a

3:35

place in a new club the one that

3:37

we at the Free Press actually think that

3:39

the majority of Americans and then. Zone

3:43

Today show for the first time.

3:45

My wife Delhi Bulls. I

3:48

ask her, what is it need to walk away

3:50

from a movement that was one central to your

3:52

identity? How does it feel

3:54

to be accused of being a right winger? When.

3:56

You don't feel you are. How does

3:59

it feel to lose friends? Why

4:01

did the last become so dogmatic?

4:03

Why people join mobs? And finally,

4:05

most importantly, how did everyone seems

4:07

to lose their minds? And how

4:10

do we get back to sanity?

4:13

As an unabashed wise guy, I will say

4:16

this is a conversation you won't wanna miss.

4:18

Stay with us. This

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episode is brought to you by Shopify.

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today. That's shopify.com/ system. The

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5:57

evils, Very. Was feel son.

6:00

They say that could work at our house

6:02

but wealth of the honestly to pleasure. To

6:04

be here? Well, We're here for

6:06

an auspicious occasion, which is the home

6:08

birth of our tie A knot. Ah,

6:10

that's two months away. But

6:13

you birth something else which is

6:15

this incredible new book, your first

6:18

book and. I. Happen

6:20

to sort of like lived alongside

6:22

you. For. The whole just

6:24

station of the book in the

6:26

book sort of begins were a

6:29

relationship dead end. It's is really

6:31

civilian emotional to sit here. In.

6:33

Our home. With. Our baby

6:36

in the other room and other Biljana

6:38

like of. I'm putting a back to

6:40

the person that I met in Twenty

6:42

team. Really? Before

6:44

Er Bb as the revolution as

6:46

you call it was beginning so

6:48

let's go back inside. It's

6:50

Twenty eighteen We met in the

6:53

near times cafeteria. for the first time on

6:55

assist floor. Who were you when I

6:57

met you and your reporter at the New York

6:59

Times? On. I.

7:02

Was a very confident.

7:04

Young. Reporter The Times rising

7:06

up doing really. Well and

7:09

having fun! I had started as

7:11

a tack reporter in San Francisco.

7:13

I was out in New York

7:15

meeting with editors because I'd. Started

7:17

doing bigger features. Teachers are taxed

7:20

on politics and bigger topics and.

7:23

I. Was having a blast those

7:25

those whatever struck my mind as

7:27

interesting or whatever my curiosity have

7:29

landed on that dates I would

7:32

pitches and editors would say yes

7:34

and I was also the racism

7:36

and. Yeah. I was.

7:38

I was. Doing very well at the

7:40

job that I. Always. Had wanted.

7:43

It. And then what? One thing you're right

7:45

about in the book and that you told

7:47

me this early on it was for youth

7:49

A New York Times. It was like reaching

7:51

a limp s three last week before you

7:53

got the job top I would be embarrassing

7:55

our media. Yep, before I had the chance

7:57

I would. Look. In the mirror with winners.

8:00

Into the woman who would become my editor

8:02

and who was a boss. I would look

8:04

in the mirror and I would say us

8:06

know it was in the New York Times.

8:09

I know it is the New York Times

8:11

arms. Nellie near does. Is it

8:13

going for like I would like her

8:15

says like is if I was obsessed

8:17

with the split It it's I believed

8:20

in the literature. Of it's and

8:22

in the slogans. As almost

8:24

religious gospel, I believed in

8:26

them. When they said

8:28

the truth is hard I thought yeah, the truth

8:30

is hard. All. Of the beautiful

8:33

romance we have a round the

8:35

life as a journalist. I.

8:37

Really believed it and I saw it as a call it. And.

8:40

So when I joined. I.

8:42

Didn't see it as getting a job Assad. Is

8:44

joining and some. A slice?

8:47

a monastic order. Yeah, so so with

8:49

him and dirty now it's just for

8:51

yeah, I did. I did when I

8:53

met you. I was already soyuz on

8:55

the isle at a paper. I had

8:57

written some pieces about it l criticizing

8:59

the excesses of me to talking about

9:01

anti semitism on the Far Less which

9:03

was of course heretical to do. and

9:05

I remember when I read your controversial

9:07

controversial new dared that I could not

9:09

country are so you worth it was

9:11

more than you. nothing controversial. You were

9:13

the golden girl. It was like or

9:15

any time there was. A presentation at

9:17

the New York Times of Alice how

9:19

spectacular the reporting was. And look at

9:21

all of these amazing young reporters out

9:23

breaking the stories like you were literally

9:25

like in the desk you know of

9:27

the publisher when he was doing that

9:30

as he said as exactly but. I.

9:32

Think it's a time. It was. Really

9:34

hard for you to imagine that The New

9:36

York Times as anything other. But.

9:39

Those slogans and I remember when we met

9:41

saying to you maybe like second or third

9:43

day like this is gonna have an impact

9:45

on your career and you looked at me

9:48

like I was kind of crazy. Yeah.

9:50

I thought you were crazy. I'm. Basically.

9:53

Market Paper was. I went from.

9:56

A few very easy. Successfully

9:58

years to. Then. Towards

10:01

the end of Twenty Nine, Teams the middle

10:03

of twenty nineteen and is. What?

10:06

We now in see is. A revolution

10:09

was rising. It resisted having a name

10:11

of course I I hate the term like

10:13

from the Woke movement or whatever exists so

10:15

flattening and I think the early days of

10:18

work were actually kind of cool and interesting.

10:20

But what? Whatever you want to call the

10:22

revolution that we all just have seen over

10:24

the last five years. When.

10:27

Not started coming. I

10:29

wanted. To. Cover parts of it, I

10:32

wanted to. Report on the it

10:34

was really interesting. I had been

10:37

be rewarded for doing reporting on

10:39

really interesting moments that were happening

10:41

and finding interesting characters and this

10:43

was really interesting. I was are

10:45

becoming kind of obsessed with what

10:48

was going on. It was amazing.

10:50

You see groups. Of anti fascists taking

10:52

over neighborhood and Seattle. All of the stuff.

10:54

was going on at the same

10:56

time and the hills and. We

10:59

were falling in love and. These

11:02

two. Things. started

11:04

making it impossible for me

11:07

within the paper, Both my

11:09

curiosity about avenues of reporting

11:11

that. We're going to necessarily help.

11:13

Let's say, Joe biden his reelection chances

11:16

or something like that, which. Was

11:18

at a that but. And. Starting

11:20

to date you that's can simultaneously Then

11:23

all of a sudden made life was

11:25

harder for me there and and I

11:27

had an editor. A great guy.

11:30

Say. To me. In the office

11:32

in front of a group of colleagues, all of us having

11:34

a drink. I. Can't believe.

11:37

You'd go on a date with Very

11:39

West and I was like trying to

11:41

laugh at her own his letter and

11:43

he said she's nazi. She's

11:45

a fucking Nazi. Service.

11:49

And. I was like.

11:53

What did you think in that moment is you didn't

11:55

tell me about that? At all at the

11:57

time because you don't want to upset the during beta.

12:00

They told us what a couple months later? Yeah, In.

12:04

The moment. I was getting

12:06

a little bit used to people saying.

12:08

Really inappropriate things to me about you

12:10

and about. My. Curiosity

12:13

about somebody supporting topics and

12:15

I. Thought. I

12:18

thought I wanted to get out of the situation. I

12:20

want to just like get him turned on. guess any

12:22

kind of he be really was. On

12:24

it but. I

12:26

was embarrassed. I was super

12:28

embarrassed. I. I didn't want to

12:30

be on the outs. And I didn't. Want

12:34

to Not please? The editors around

12:36

me, I wanted to please them. This.

12:38

Was the only place ever thought I would be. So

12:40

it was sort of like. This.

12:43

Is a person a muted. Have

12:46

an arrest for the rest of my life.

12:48

As an editor I would do I do

12:50

like I was I was panicked maybe I'm

12:52

and also did want to get him in

12:54

trouble. Because I've really liked him in I

12:56

like him like a that's what's so crazy may be,

12:58

but I didn't want to get. Him in trouble

13:00

I didn't want to like report hammer

13:02

something that that me now us Now

13:04

I know that's not our like visitors

13:06

I know I guess I could have

13:08

gotten here the salary. I

13:12

lost.big that I was just of but.

13:14

This is. I mean I think this is one of

13:16

the things that is. That. I admire

13:18

so much about you is. You. Don't

13:20

name him in the boss. You don't

13:23

need any of the people that did

13:25

things that are just now with distance

13:27

that we see as being like to

13:29

so wildly inappropriate. I think like the

13:32

seem that comes through in everything that

13:34

you do the hell is you are

13:36

total openness and curiosity about the world

13:38

and. It was weirdly

13:40

that curiosity that be team

13:42

your chilies he'll. More does always

13:45

get in trouble. Even now just me or I

13:47

got worse. I. Can't help myself with it.

13:49

But the thing, that system really. As

13:52

after the Nazi comment. It.

13:54

Was almost explicit set coverage

13:56

at the. Times in the coverage

13:59

it every mainstream. Liberal.

14:01

Publication. Had

14:04

to explicitly help. Turbines

14:06

relax up and it became like. It.

14:09

Has to help the party. And.

14:12

That used to be maybe subtly. Are you

14:14

know, journalism always in liberal. It's not like

14:16

that's not a surprise like I thought. My

14:18

politics the didn't just great. But

14:20

it became much more. Explicit

14:23

and stated and this is what's exactly

14:25

that for people, right? sell? One example

14:27

I really remember and this is a

14:29

chapter in your new book. Was

14:32

during. The rioting of the summer of

14:34

the only twenty right there with peaceful Blm

14:36

protests. But then of course there were violent

14:38

riots and violent riots that left whole city

14:41

is or at least parts of cities destroyed

14:43

in their wake. And your business reporter at

14:45

the time and I remember you saying this

14:47

a really interesting business or a the Us

14:49

I want to go to Kenosha. Because.

14:52

The whole the whole story. that was the

14:54

go this oh all the small business owners have

14:56

insurance. It's no big deal and you were

14:58

skeptical about that. Tell us about the decision to

15:00

go and report that story and then what

15:02

happened because is really what I remember in the

15:05

wake of you coming back with the story.

15:07

That you did. So.

15:09

I've. Been wanting to find different

15:12

under reported. Bits.

15:14

Of. All. The. Little

15:16

explosions were see. Around the country

15:18

and. Kenosha. Was really interesting

15:21

one because into New Shirt

15:23

the wealthy white commercial district

15:25

always very well inferred and

15:27

had a come from commercial

15:29

Business association. That's when they

15:31

saw others. Protests

15:33

hurting him to riots and for a more

15:35

they boarded up immediately was often a spic

15:37

and span done I think the last one

15:39

business down there and with it was pretty

15:42

tight. And if they did lose a

15:44

business. He had interests.

15:46

The neighborhood that ended up being burned

15:49

was the multicultural. Primarily. Not

15:51

white, the poor business

15:54

district and they're. All.

15:56

Of the small businesses were under insured, We're talking

15:58

about little like cell phone shops. This or

16:00

not, they were all vastly under insured.

16:02

Just most people are thinking. About out a

16:04

straw for loss, total loss or thinking maybe some will

16:07

steal a cell phone case or to and will have

16:09

to like it up in of get. That reimbursed

16:11

for they're not thinking catastrophic loss

16:13

and so. The. District

16:15

that was burned was this poor? Minority own

16:17

district and the city was scrambling to

16:20

try to figure out how did. Pasted

16:22

a rebuild and so I wanted to

16:24

go and see with my own eyes

16:27

what happened there. I wanted to see.

16:30

What I'd only seen through. Super

16:32

partisan media. so. At the

16:35

time. The only media coverage

16:37

out of these cities was either right

16:39

wing media that was saying like. And.

16:42

He for destroy the entire city kenosha

16:44

like. I have like a city is a

16:46

clear you seem a huge years of course.

16:48

And. Then left wing media that's like a

16:50

peaceful protest. like a fiery but peaceful see

16:52

an ashtray and I wasn't going crazy with

16:55

are like there's what what's actually going us

16:57

So pitch that group is a strike. Ago

17:00

and. I come

17:02

back with that story and basically. I

17:04

mean to sound so petty now, but it's recently

17:06

slow rolled. It's basically that. You

17:09

were not have space. To run a story

17:12

about what happened in Kenosha, Words were not enough space

17:14

and. More than

17:16

explicit lies about what was happening in

17:18

Twenty Twenty. How the mainstream.

17:20

Media control the narrative was by

17:22

not covering it that was most

17:25

important than to to the north.

17:27

And it was to all of us collectively. Agree to

17:30

ignore it. The editors were like

17:32

we're just not enough space until after the election

17:34

sorry and those the while. And

17:36

I reminds most meaningful

17:38

actions, reflects and bikes.

17:40

At until you say what do you

17:42

mean until after the election. Yeah.

17:45

Dot point I was getting. Frustrated.

17:47

Nervous. Getting. Upset about

17:49

the various. Schemes. A

17:51

paper was trying to do to

17:53

either soften my reporting or. Slow

17:56

down This kind of reporting any

17:58

reporting that wasn't again, Conducive

18:00

to. Specific. Policy

18:02

and specific A Election Goals.

18:05

We were on different sides of the paper

18:07

right? so I was on the opinion side.

18:09

You're on the new size but we saw

18:11

different versions of the same story which has

18:14

things that if seared to the convenience. Politically.

18:17

Hope for Narrative sort of sailed

18:19

and. Yeah. And funny thing that

18:21

didn't was scrutinized. have the added slow rolled

18:24

etc. Now Canosa was once way I really

18:26

remember you doing the the other story I

18:28

really remember now with the story that you

18:30

did about I don't remember if the end

18:33

of the day the name without our shop

18:35

sad as it off haunt him as don't

18:37

in Seattle yes which read from a little.

18:40

Price. As why I would.

18:44

This was a time when the mainstream. Media toyed

18:46

with the idea that righteous vigilantes

18:48

were good. Very good. And. Only

18:50

the weak kneed would question whether the

18:52

protest should have a little edge. That

18:54

reason of danger, people's hearts are always

18:56

in the right place. To

18:58

protest was fiery. But. Peaceful is how a

19:01

now famous Cnn Tehran described one nt

19:03

for outing the correspondent was reporting as

19:05

a backdrop of raging fires As the

19:07

word peaceful sat on the screen, the

19:10

same looked comically unfeasible. We don't have

19:12

time to finger wag it protesters about

19:14

property. Said. Black Lives Matter Cofounder

19:16

Lisa Garza, Ignoring.

19:18

Destruction of a local business became official policy

19:21

for New York based media. David Remnick, the

19:23

editor of The New Yorker, voted meditation. At

19:25

the height of the protests, asking who

19:27

really is the agitator here. Besides

19:30

Martin Luther King Jr. even looting insisted

19:32

is an after catharsis the form of

19:34

shocking the white community by abusing property

19:36

rights. Then King quoted Victor Hugo to

19:38

deepen is point. If a soul is

19:40

left in the darkness, sins will be

19:42

committed. The guilty one is not he

19:44

who commits the sin, but he who.

19:46

Causes. The Darkness. That's. The

19:48

kicker to Remnick sesay. Npr held

19:51

a friendly que in a about the importance

19:53

of riots and as a protest tactics with

19:55

the author of a book titled simply in

19:57

the sense of looting. Nicole.

19:59

hannah jones the creator of the 1619 project,

20:01

and by then the most famous American

20:03

reporter agreed. Violence is when an

20:06

agent of the state kneels on a man's

20:08

neck until all of the life is leached out

20:10

of his body, destroying property which can be replaced

20:12

as not violence. To use the

20:14

same language to describe these two things is

20:16

not moral, she told CBS News. Anyway,

20:19

Antifa itself was just fun. Masked

20:22

vigilantes have always saved the world, became the

20:24

media's line. Another prominent Times

20:26

reporter tweeted, if your grandfather fought in

20:28

the war against Nazi Germany or Imperial

20:31

Japan, they were Antifa. Writer

20:33

and director W. Camus Bell did a special

20:35

at Antifa for CNN. Antifa

20:37

is short for anti-fascist, he said. Picture

20:40

a table. On one side of

20:42

the table is Hitler and Mussolini, and on the

20:44

other side is the popular performer, Rafi. Which

20:46

side of the table are you sitting on? I'm

20:48

with Rafi. In a video

20:51

called The Real Antifa, the Lincoln

20:53

Project, a lobbying group for Democrats spearheaded

20:55

by former Republicans, showed clips

20:57

of World War II soldiers while

20:59

a gravelly voice narrated or read,

21:01

anti-fascism. It's not a cable news talking

21:04

point, it's an American ideal that should

21:06

be memorialized. Or

21:08

perhaps another way of putting it, loot

21:11

and burn everything. Fuck this,

21:13

who the fuck cares about looting? wrote Imani

21:15

Gandhi, an editor with the Progressive Rewire News

21:17

Group. Stop killing us. Maybe

21:20

destroying small businesses was good. Small

21:23

businesses aren't unionized. Small businesses

21:25

aren't accountable. All those little burned

21:27

out shops are part of the structural problem. Bas

21:30

Karsunkar, president of the nation, a

21:32

major leftist magazine, said essentially that

21:35

it was bad tactics, but good

21:37

politics, to end small businesses. So

21:40

if by attack small businesses, you mean

21:42

encourage the looting of them? Sure, that's

21:45

technically counterproductive. But

21:47

we should aim to undermine small

21:49

business owners with pro-worker legislation, unions,

21:52

and to reconstitute them as worker

21:54

controlled state firms or co-ops. A

21:56

writer from the Progressive Magazine, Jacobin, joined

21:59

in. We shouldn't fetishize mom

22:01

and pops. They offer lower wages,

22:03

skimpier benefits, and inferior labor protections.

22:06

Delighted by the warm press reception,

22:08

random members of Antifa started releasing

22:10

their own statements and appearing on

22:12

news shows. Their faces backlit to

22:15

keep anonymity. The use of

22:17

violence is a tactic of how we keep our

22:19

communities safe, an anonymous member told

22:21

Nightline. The whole point of protesting

22:23

is to make people uncomfortable, said

22:26

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. A

22:29

Slate magazine headline read, nonviolence

22:31

is an important tool for protests,

22:33

but so is violence. The

22:36

rhetoric at the time was, at best,

22:38

heated. Even occasionally exceeding

22:41

the ever-polite Trump, one

22:43

prominent activist in media darling tweeted at

22:45

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, I'm

22:47

going to be the person who watches the life leave your

22:50

eyes. So, this

22:53

hardcore, I mean, the

22:55

rhetoric was insane. The rhetoric

22:58

was wild, and now, of

23:00

course, it's being memory-hold. All of it's

23:03

being memory-hold. Like, obviously, the stuff ran

23:05

Antifa, and people pretend like, well,

23:07

at the time, the context for that section

23:10

is, people were pretending

23:12

Antifa wasn't real, and the media's job

23:14

was pretend Antifa wasn't real. And

23:17

if Antifa was real, it was good. That

23:20

was sort of the move with constant

23:22

things, right? It wasn't just about Antifa.

23:24

That same rhetorical move is, the thing

23:26

doesn't exist, the thing doesn't exist, the

23:28

thing doesn't exist, but when it's proven

23:31

that it exists, it was good. Now,

23:34

you, unlike many people, actually

23:36

saw Antifa with your own

23:39

eyes in many of the

23:41

stories that you did, whether it was in

23:43

Portland, if I recall, and then, of course,

23:45

in this Chaz Chop Seattle, Autonomous Zone. So,

23:47

in that summer, a group of

23:50

anti-fascists took over a neighborhood

23:52

of Seattle. Actually, it was a gay neighborhood. And

23:55

they set up borders, they

23:58

installed their own security system. Them. And

24:01

they said with in these blocks

24:03

are no police and know ambulances

24:06

and know outsiders without our permission.

24:08

This is a new city, isn't

24:10

new lands? To be taught him a zone. And

24:13

the Mayor of Seattle endorsed

24:16

it, Embraced it, She.

24:18

Supplied. It. She. Brought

24:21

in porta potties, And brought in

24:23

census to help them build their borders

24:25

of their new cities she thought of

24:27

as kind of pond and. I

24:30

mean, needless to say, All

24:32

of for text messages from that

24:34

period mysteriously disappeared and were just

24:36

accidentally deleted afterwards and she has

24:39

promised better data retention rec. Madder.

24:41

And Madder a better record retention

24:43

methods in the future, but. You.

24:45

Sea breezes and so what was

24:47

it that moment was? That.

24:50

We were being told that the Black

24:52

Lives Matter protests had no and he

24:54

said elements and know sort of violent

24:56

elements that they were all just peaceful

24:59

and any. Part. That

25:01

was violent was probably. A

25:03

conservative right wing. white supremacists, Trying

25:06

to undermine the Blm movement and

25:08

so. That was kind of the. Explanation

25:10

for what you were seen on Tv.

25:13

And. What you're seeing was. Cities

25:15

ten lit on fire and into chaos

25:18

and and and violence and also beautiful

25:20

protests and also lil like peaceful think

25:22

it was. it was a mix but

25:24

it was a mix that included. Violets

25:26

and. Seattle

25:28

gave away the lie because

25:31

they're you. saw the. Complete

25:33

and Public alliance. Us in Chief

25:35

and Blm know what isn't even

25:37

wise. It's interesting and why is

25:39

it important? Say it was implied

25:41

it says in chief of the

25:44

leaves in. Violent.

25:47

Protests. And the free zone of

25:49

more violence, The idea that. That.

25:52

We're not going, just talk, About or false

25:54

in chief of brings that in and

25:56

says this is now on the table.

25:59

and LM had a

26:01

softer reputation. It was nonviolent marches.

26:04

It was being embraced

26:06

by corporate America, glossy magazines.

26:09

And so every major brand. Yeah.

26:12

And so Antifa was tricky for the brand, but

26:15

it was very useful for the actual tangible

26:17

actions and to make that

26:19

protest a little bit fiery, which made

26:22

it a little more dramatic and made it a

26:24

little, you know, give it that

26:26

energy. And so at

26:28

the time, basically the mainstream

26:30

press, including the New York Times, was

26:33

openly lying about the connection between these

26:35

groups. But I went to these places.

26:37

I went to Seattle. I went to

26:39

Portland. I went to Kenosha. And the

26:42

Alliance was completely real. They were all

26:45

working together as one movement for

26:48

that period of time. And

26:50

how do I know it's Antifa? Antifa,

26:53

they say they're a leaderless autonomous

26:55

movement. They all dress alike. They

26:58

carry guns. They mask their faces. It's

27:02

a so-called leaderless movement that

27:05

is extraordinarily disciplined and

27:07

extraordinarily organized. I

27:10

remember, and I think one of the

27:12

reasons that these stories that you did,

27:14

whether about Kenosha or Seattle, were so

27:16

complicated is the caricatured

27:19

two-dimensional story we were all meant

27:21

to believe, was that these protests

27:24

were made up of marginalized minority

27:26

populations. And they were fighting the

27:28

man to put it in their

27:31

language, you know, the cis-het, white

27:34

heteronormative, blah, blah, blah. We could throw

27:36

in more jargon there. But actually what your

27:38

stories revealed is that it was so much

27:40

more complicated. And the character that

27:42

brought that to life for me was

27:44

this Muslim gay cafe owner

27:47

whose cafe, unfortunately, happened to

27:49

be located in the center

27:51

of this autonomous zone. Tell

27:53

me a little bit about him and what you discovered through

27:56

his story. Ok. So Basically, when

27:58

I was in Seattle, I was in Seattle. Yeah,

28:00

it'll I end up spending time with

28:02

a few small business owners including Frazzle

28:04

Khan and. He

28:07

basically described. To me. How.

28:10

Because he had joined a lawsuit against

28:13

the city to say to the city.

28:15

You. Guys either. Oh. Me some

28:18

cash back for the broken windows.

28:20

Or. You gotta move the

28:23

borders of your new autonomy zone because

28:25

delivery vehicles and no longer come in

28:27

to. Pick up your ovaries. Orders

28:29

or something. My does is crossing my

28:31

windows are being smashed. It is a

28:33

disaster. The city has to help rights

28:35

so bunch of business owners. Had gone

28:37

to get into this law suits because

28:39

he had joined that. Then then he

28:42

was targeted more and. Target. I

28:44

mean, We're. Talking about young

28:46

white men with. Large.

28:48

Guns who were very intimidating and very

28:50

scary and and it wasn't crazy to

28:53

be scared of the they would smash

28:55

your glass again as soon as your

28:57

places and they were marching around and

28:59

night I'm in you'd see these shaky.

29:02

Videos that were coming out of these

29:04

Autonomy Zone Seattle in particular nights and.

29:07

It. Was. People opening

29:09

the trunks of cars, handing out

29:11

long guns to difference or new

29:13

security operators. I mean where you have a

29:16

vacuum of power? what do you think is gonna

29:18

happen? So. When I was there

29:20

I am. I'm wandering around and make it

29:22

out and said Saudi with visitors what's going

29:24

on Guess is and he died. A couple

29:26

different security forces happen that you've got. This.

29:29

Because really sweet Blm security

29:31

team who wander around and

29:33

do like were with the

29:35

alarm and. You've

29:38

got. The. Paid security. And

29:41

they are. Wearing. Like.

29:44

Bullet proof vests and they're like the guys who

29:46

guard bank space athletes who are there and there

29:48

was. You're a nurse and you pay me a

29:50

little bit. We never and the Blm guys ross

29:52

I submitted this paid security was saying pay me

29:55

and all guard you. And then you

29:57

have. So it's like basically Seattle's her Sins

29:59

of Warlords. And. We're we're like paying off on

30:01

one on percent and everyone and need maybe have

30:03

to pay off a few these different security teams

30:05

and then of the third team is the anti.

30:07

For team who are. These

30:10

his squarely looking, very. Pale

30:12

white guys with some. Wander

30:15

and also saying. They're providing security in

30:17

their monitoring. They the kind of modest

30:19

means of the closest. But yeah

30:22

we were. You have a vacuum. You have all

30:24

these groups. He was just crazy. but it was

30:26

as reporter it was. So.

30:28

Rich. So sure you are in

30:30

in American city in a progressive

30:32

American city and there's basically different.

30:35

Like. Warlords being. Paid. Off by

30:37

people like side socks on. At

30:40

this is being portrayed by

30:42

the local government as. Could.

30:44

Show up in the city, But.

30:46

It turns and and what happens. I

30:49

mean basically people were shot and

30:51

one. Young. Person were sought. Trusted

30:54

opened. And then another young person

30:57

was shot and died. and then. says.

30:59

Was. Shut Down The. Father

31:02

of that young men. As.

31:04

Lawsuit against the city and he. Alleges

31:07

that there's. That basically the

31:09

kid was put on a folding

31:11

table and basically bled out and

31:13

then finally was. Thrown. Into a

31:15

car and and brought to the hospital but it was too

31:17

late and. Your. Family ambulances

31:19

wouldn't go into these places. A

31:22

nun. You. Try to figure out

31:24

who shot him, who killed him? An.

31:27

E L. The evidence is all cleaned up by the time

31:29

the cops get in there, there blocks from getting it. Everything's

31:31

picked up from cleaned up and. Know

31:33

like sitting back up straight the idea

31:35

that. Some. Major. The

31:38

Police in a city. Would sort

31:40

is. Step. Away. And

31:43

allow for this to half. And I mean

31:45

it. It reminds me in a way of

31:47

like what's happening like campuses across the country

31:49

right now. But look back, like how do

31:52

you understand and maybe it's impossible to know.

31:54

Why they seem to decisions they dead.

31:57

Why they allow this to happen. Why

31:59

would these. Via the porta potties.

32:01

Why would they allow for total

32:03

anarchy in their cities? I.

32:06

Sense that there was a real police.

32:09

After. The. Rifle.

32:11

Horror that people felt. Watching

32:14

the video of George Ford. There.

32:16

Was a real belief. That.

32:18

Nothing could be worse. Than.

32:20

American Police. An. American

32:23

police are so. Bad

32:25

that we oughta try. Everything.

32:28

Anything. Why? Not. And

32:31

so. It. Was a

32:34

movement that said reform root of

32:36

Time for Reform has passed the

32:38

time for from all these reforms

32:40

body cameras in help. You. Know

32:42

all these reforms didn't do it. And

32:45

so. He i think it was

32:47

true believers who thought a revolution my bring

32:49

a better answer. And so

32:51

you had. These autonomy zones

32:53

embrace by the city, embraced by

32:56

it's the elites. And then you

32:58

have more broadly a movement to be

33:00

fun, abolish the police which now is

33:02

famously be walked back but at the

33:04

time to question. It was considered.

33:07

Crazy. I remember like. Being.

33:10

In situations where. I.

33:12

Would be like. Well. Maybe

33:15

the police is a be like. To.

33:17

Funded a little but does

33:20

not fall list and. That

33:22

was considered a crazy thing to

33:24

say. A dinner like that was

33:26

the as the extent of where

33:28

where the rhetoric went with in

33:30

mainstream. Media's and within the Reporter

33:32

community, which is a very tight

33:35

knit lockstep community, right? The. Rhetoric

33:37

had gone so extreme that

33:39

anything says to the right

33:41

of abolish was fascist. I

33:43

remember really distinctly you going

33:45

to report this story about

33:47

tears top and me being

33:49

like. There's. An unbelievable start like

33:51

this is. the six had of saying like

33:53

a tumble. For Joan Didion would have. Written. About

33:56

it's incredible and you had

33:58

a really different reaction. From

34:00

some people are times of not

34:02

this story specifically what was it.

34:05

Basically. When. I

34:07

was heading to report that story them when I

34:09

came back and we publish their stories. The.

34:12

Tatami became much more intense. I.

34:14

Had colleagues. Mean it,

34:16

it sounds so petty. Know this up there were tweeting

34:18

means a single. Race Fun! It was on twitter

34:20

and they were tweeting really mean things about

34:22

me. And it was the

34:24

first time when I realized, oh, this

34:27

kind of social shaming? That's. Happening

34:29

quietly in the cafeteria over

34:31

drinks. Or whatever this is going to

34:33

become public. This is going

34:35

to become. A thing

34:38

a have to deal with in the public sphere. And.

34:41

I could. Not. Have

34:43

as memorized all the mean

34:45

tweets. Let's say I was

34:48

assassins and as anyone report

34:50

such as and. Shop is

34:52

a monster and I'm. It

34:55

was really nasty. Was a middle school

34:57

but like the party as middle schoolers

35:00

you can imagine a resident real nasty

35:02

like on a good writers and. They're

35:04

not really good at being mean. Yes, Yes!

35:07

And. The. Person who's.

35:09

The. Leaves of Soldier of

35:12

Censorship is. Of.

35:15

Low. Level wire cutter writer right

35:17

who was in the all company

35:19

slacks leading brigade is against the

35:21

clock supporters and the top party

35:23

supporters was that again the market

35:25

might argue with her or that

35:27

was what I did was easy

35:29

thing and dislike. This will do

35:31

is open to make any saying

35:33

rely on a hierarchy. Yes and

35:35

what happened because of slack in

35:37

because of Twitter was there was

35:40

just a total flattening of that.

35:42

It was a very bizarre. Thing.

35:44

That the paper allowed. To happen and in some

35:46

ways encouraged to happen. Say more about

35:48

that because I think that times, if

35:50

you know so. and Suzan Mazur. Internally.

35:53

To why. Because.

35:56

The. Leadership of the Times. The.

35:58

Top leadership didn't move. Obviously

36:00

they had the old school values

36:02

they had this. They wanted good

36:04

journalism like. The. Broader

36:07

movement was. Beyond. Controlling

36:09

and within that movement you

36:11

could rise up, see could

36:13

rise up among your colleagues

36:15

by going after. A reporter

36:17

for stepped out a line and you

36:19

are plotted a new and you sort

36:21

of rose and prestige among among the

36:23

chord of reporters. and so it was

36:26

a good career move to do that.

36:29

It. Was even if the bosses

36:31

didn't love it, it was good.

36:33

He rose in the estimation. Of

36:35

your follies and I'm.

36:38

And I knew that. I knew

36:40

that the people. Who were doing these things? To.

36:43

Me or to others. For. Good

36:45

of when within the context the paper. And.

36:51

I. Knew that I was going to lose. And.

36:56

I also knew that. The

36:59

pressure you have as a reporter when

37:01

you're doing controversial stories, which I often

37:03

do, is enormous. You're you're going into

37:06

the really you're you're you're in battle.

37:08

You're doing an investigation the person may

37:10

not. Like. If you're writing about

37:12

something that isn't flattering, you get

37:15

push back and I throughout my

37:17

career I've written stories where. I.

37:20

Get pushed back because. I

37:22

am. Because

37:25

my personal because it looks as he can think

37:27

you're right because I make a lot but I

37:29

make a low this races or a report as

37:31

I didn't want me to write about or

37:33

whatever like it's that's the job of a reporter.

37:36

is your in the arena were and in

37:38

you're not pleasing everyone and that's okay. And

37:40

and you gotta be tough. But

37:42

I could only do that. From.

37:45

A place where my colleagues

37:47

and my editors are standing

37:49

behind me and you can

37:51

only do that if you

37:53

know that. You're in

37:55

an institution that will keep you. Protect.

37:59

their had here Yeah, that will have your back

38:02

and I was increasingly

38:04

aware that that wasn't the case and that

38:06

actually My

38:09

colleagues were the ones who were going to make my

38:11

life very very

38:13

hard They were

38:15

going to publicly criticize my stories. They

38:17

were going to engage with the nastiest trolls

38:20

Then they were going to use every private thing I

38:23

did within the newspaper my story list,

38:25

which we have to you know

38:27

We had a communal story

38:30

list among my cohort of

38:32

business tech reporters Where

38:35

you say what you're working on here is here the business stories.

38:37

I'm doing here the various other stories. I'm doing that

38:40

would be Leaked made

38:42

public everything I said in every meeting

38:44

would suddenly be shared with outside

38:47

I started getting calls from reporters

38:49

from other publications who

38:51

had knowledge of things that only

38:53

could be known if my colleagues were

38:56

telling them and I had

38:58

nothing to be ashamed of I was proud of my work proud

39:00

of the things I was saying which was pitching more stories

39:03

But I was realizing oh

39:06

wow this world is going to tighten

39:08

around me And at

39:11

the same time then was honestly very influential

39:13

for me was the Donald McNeil situation Where

39:16

I saw this times

39:18

man Donald McNeil who'd been there his

39:20

whole career. He devoted himself to the

39:23

newspaper and Without

39:25

getting into the details because it's like silly and

39:27

too much and bizarre honestly I

39:31

saw his life get

39:33

destroyed by this movement in

39:35

a very irrational way and I saw

39:39

him get his entire reputation

39:43

destroyed very

39:45

very gleefully and

39:49

I just saw this really kind of

39:51

noble man Ruined

39:53

by this movement and it upset

39:55

me. I was Pissed off

39:57

for his sake, but also I was thinking. Okay,

40:01

So. Let's say make it through this period of time.

40:03

Let's say I just. Muffled.

40:05

There and muscle through. Then

40:07

What? This movement, once

40:09

it wants to destroy your

40:11

reputation, it will succeed. If

40:14

you want to stay within one of

40:16

these institutions, If you understand

40:18

the old procedure world yes said you

40:21

have to make accommodations. To it If

40:23

you want to protect your reputation, your career. Yeah,

40:25

and if you don't. It. Will

40:27

destroy your reputation, your career. And at

40:29

that point I hadn't been cancelled. I

40:31

had all my my bits and

40:33

bobs something I was doing. still

40:36

pretty confident. And I was sort of like.

40:38

I'm. Gonna get out. I want to sit around

40:40

here until they figure out how to cancel me

40:43

and some real with. I'm sure I'll say something.

40:45

Like. I. Don't know

40:47

I told somebody is nice hair caught

40:49

a couple ago like was that illegal?

40:51

a probably like i don't you started

40:54

or paranoid and so I. Started.

40:56

To realize. Okay,

40:58

There's really not. An option for me to stay. I.

41:01

Think that this story. That you're

41:03

describing and story. I lived through

41:05

the story. Down winning author. They're

41:07

all versions of the same thing,

41:09

which is you out yourself either

41:11

intentionally or inadvertently in some way

41:13

as some kind of heretic to

41:15

this movement. Then the target is

41:17

put on your desk and services,

41:19

especially the case if you are

41:21

of the wrong identity. In some

41:23

way, they find a way to

41:25

go after you. and I remember.

41:27

Really Really. Clearly a moment that I would

41:30

like. This is not going to go well

41:32

for Nelly. and it was when some like

41:34

sub editor or copy editor. Read

41:37

one of your stories and excuse to

41:39

have him pulling the white gays and

41:42

we don't need to go into that

41:44

story. But the reason I bring it

41:46

up is because one of the things

41:49

that was happening at this time the

41:51

report on in your new book is

41:53

the rise of I'm a part of

41:55

this movement let's say that describes itself

41:58

as the Anti Racist. And

42:00

one of the best chapters in the book,

42:02

the one The Atlantic, recently excerpted, is

42:04

about you going to one

42:06

of these sessions with white

42:09

women who feel really guilty about being

42:11

white. And they're presumably in

42:14

this training session to learn

42:16

how to be good anti-racists. And

42:19

I remember you being astonished

42:22

by what you encountered in this training session.

42:25

Can you tell us a little bit about what those

42:28

few days were like and how you

42:30

think it sort of emlamizes this broader

42:32

movement in the way that it functions? Yeah.

42:35

So then after I

42:37

left the paper, I

42:39

only had my one skill set. So I decided

42:41

to write this book basically doing

42:43

all the stories I would have wanted to do for

42:45

the paper. And one

42:48

of those was on the rise

42:51

of the modern

42:53

conception of anti-racism. And

42:56

what that is is

42:58

a sort of therapeutic model

43:01

of activist work. And so

43:03

just to back up on it,

43:05

I basically become really interested

43:07

in the work of this one

43:09

woman, Tema O'Koon, who had created

43:12

a list of

43:14

white supremacy characteristics, white

43:17

traits. And the list was

43:20

super popular. It was accepted

43:22

as gospel at a place like the

43:25

Times or a place like NPR or

43:27

in any university. It was so accepted

43:29

that the Smithsonian Museum made a poster

43:31

of it. And what the list said

43:34

was that there were certain white traits. And

43:36

these were very white. And they were things

43:39

such as sense of urgency,

43:41

worship of the written word, individualism,

43:45

objectivity, punctuality,

43:48

being on time. And

43:52

this was accepted as

43:54

anti-racist. I mean, even

43:56

saying it out loud, writing about

43:58

it, I was like, this feels racist. Even

44:00

right, it's crazy. But yes this was

44:02

this was the premier anti racist thinking

44:04

and so well if that under serve

44:06

I got that. Lets report on this.

44:09

One. Not like let's keep the kibbutz

44:11

and I'm. When I discovered

44:13

through reporting on heard the

44:16

the list it's creation and

44:18

it's popularity. Most. Importantly,

44:20

That anyone can make a list of crazy things? Why did

44:22

it when. And. It

44:26

one because. For. A long

44:28

time the work of anti racist. Action

44:30

Work of. Making the world less

44:32

racist speaking were better for people

44:34

of different races. making the world

44:36

more equal was hard work. And

44:39

involved making incremental changes involve getting

44:41

a lot of people together to

44:44

petition for small local changes for

44:46

laws to change really hard because

44:48

cover either As all this stuff

44:51

A it involves tried to organize

44:53

of groups of white women in

44:55

Berkeley to do letter writing campaigns

44:58

to get Congress interested in atrocities

45:00

happening in third world countries. This

45:02

kind of work. And

45:05

the List and the New Movement that

45:07

Rose said. You. Don't need to

45:09

do that anymore. Actually, The

45:12

work of Anti Racism, the works of

45:14

equality and justice is worth it. Just

45:16

has to happen. Inside you. And

45:19

it's worth it. You just you just work on

45:21

yourself. And it says sit

45:23

with your some. Are you

45:25

write? You went woman in particular.

45:28

Sit. With yourself. Work on

45:30

your own internalized whiteness, which is

45:32

manifest as. You. Perfectionism.

45:35

Your. Objectivity. You always

45:38

feel like you're late. That's. Part of

45:40

your internal whiteness. Release.

45:42

That. And it turns out. That.

45:45

A lot of people. Really

45:47

sound that appealing? And. That

45:49

that was a lot more

45:51

intuitive and interesting. To people.

45:55

Then, the heart of noxious work

45:57

of doing legislation And so minute.

46:00

The Nice: These folks. Will

46:02

say explicitly. It is not

46:04

a white person's job to. Expand.

46:08

Let's say the Boardroom. It's.

46:10

Your job to try to dismantle the boardroom.

46:13

It's not your job to sort of raised

46:15

things up. that's implying that you know where

46:18

things should go. That's implying that you that

46:20

that there's a standard that should. Be met

46:22

or something like that. A school should that.

46:24

A math class should be better. Why? Why

46:26

like that? Don't get involved with that. That's

46:28

not right. It's. A

46:30

You need to change your expectations of the

46:33

world and change yourself. And so I went

46:35

to Rub De Angelo. Inspired

46:37

course he was a speaker but era

46:39

other. Or is a lot more than

46:41

just turns off with it's and. Did.

46:43

A chapter on. Being.

46:46

In that in that class and on this

46:48

the work of. Excavating your

46:50

and turtle. I won't of

46:52

how in read part of one of the

46:54

exercises that you describe. In the book. The

46:57

facilitators will tell you and this is

46:59

a coat Before you can abolish whiteness

47:01

you need to feel your white skin

47:03

you need to activate. It is hop

47:05

on your white skin that your foot

47:07

massage work with each till carefully than

47:09

slats the bottom of your feet. Then

47:11

you need to sign your spine of

47:13

dignity and then any right? This is

47:15

not a joke. You were asked to

47:17

sway like snakes. you're told you should

47:19

begin to rock and when you push

47:21

yourself too far to the edge just

47:23

rock and place and you three communal

47:25

hums to settle the nervous. System. To

47:29

read that. It sounds almost

47:31

like it is. Seal.

47:35

Your white skin. Tap

47:37

on your wait till

47:39

there's something. so the

47:41

survey and retrograde about.

47:44

Like Reagan fine whiteness in

47:47

that way. It's very disturbing.

47:51

Yeah. A big part of the movement

47:53

is. Identifying deeply with

47:55

your race, identifying. Deeply as

47:57

flights and it's a very.

48:00

Logically powerful, Experience

48:02

going into an anti racists.

48:05

Training course. And.

48:07

I'll. Say there's a reason that it. Has.

48:12

Succeeded. So well. and it's not just

48:14

because it's more fun to do and more

48:17

fun to serve, sell, flagellate, them this to

48:19

work on legislation which insert yes it is

48:21

of course but also in that. Part.

48:25

Of the a terrorist his work is you have to identify

48:27

as white and you have to say. My.

48:30

Wife does not neutral. It's

48:32

not that there's. A.

48:34

Person who is black or brown and

48:36

then I'm service neutral Non race. Is

48:38

that why it is also race and

48:40

and I think that there is an

48:42

element of truth. To. The

48:44

idea that. White. People

48:46

would america to. Live and

48:49

going to pretend like race doesn't exist. But

48:51

if you're not white, I don't think you

48:53

have that privilege. I don't think that you

48:55

can pretend raced as exists because it comes

48:57

up even. Bring it up. People see you

48:59

as as racial and a lot of the

49:01

anti racist movement was saying we got to

49:03

change that. Everyone has a race

49:05

we all have color wheel of this

49:07

or that but what that looks like.

49:10

In. Real life is having a group

49:13

of white people get around and start

49:15

to identify very strongly as. What?

49:18

And. Try to define.

49:21

Whiteness. Which. Is such

49:23

a strange modern creation? Of course

49:25

in. I'm half Greek has.

49:28

Irish. The Greeks weren't considered white. The Irish

49:30

she was controversial for a little. I mean

49:32

this is these as these are modern categories,

49:34

but. Whatever, there are categories, they are

49:36

the thing we. Live

49:39

with now but. The work

49:41

of the course was so. Powerful

49:44

or disturbing or. Have

49:46

we want to describe it? Because.

49:50

That kernel of truth draws you. And let

49:52

me give one example that I thought was.

49:55

Really stuck with me. You talk about

49:57

one woman in this course. It's. You

50:00

mean about her very existence that

50:02

perpetuates whiteness? makes her feel shame

50:04

and fear and I'm just gonna

50:06

read to things that she said

50:08

in the course the darkest place

50:10

I go is thinking it would

50:12

be better if I weren't here

50:14

it would be at least one

50:17

less person perpetuating these things. There's

50:19

another woman in the group the

50:21

talks about the harm in the

50:23

suffering that she's causing her non

50:25

white husband because as she puts

50:27

it, she's constantly perpetuating toxic whiteness

50:29

at him. Because.

50:32

What? The. Movement says. Is

50:35

that? have to acknowledge your whiteness and have

50:37

to try to fight it? But there's nothing

50:39

you can do to escape it. And

50:42

you're whiteness is inherently harmful. An

50:45

inherently. Toxic. To.

50:48

People worldwide and so

50:50

what it creates is

50:52

an ideology that says.

50:55

Actually, Races. Shouldn't

50:58

mix and actually. Why?

51:00

People do more harm. Even if you love

51:02

your husband very much, you're harming him. And.

51:05

You're probably harming your trial. And.

51:08

There's. No. Like. Path

51:10

out other than just just

51:13

working for ever to dismantle.

51:16

Quote. Unquote, Whiteness.

51:19

And. What else is why it was so. Important.

51:22

Report on. Because

51:24

this. Psychological.

51:26

Therapeutic anti Racists movement

51:29

took. The. Smarts

51:32

the hard work, the time the money,

51:34

a bunch people who wanted to make

51:36

the world better and said this is

51:38

the way to do it. My.

51:40

argument now after have been taken the courses

51:42

and sort of being stepping back is. I

51:46

don't think this really improve people's lives a

51:48

whole lot. I don't think this actually makes

51:50

things better. For people of color, this doesn't

51:52

make things better for people who are. In

51:55

a shitty situation? let's say in a. Bad

51:58

public school and. The need to

52:01

school to be better doesn't improve

52:03

things it didn't bring. Kids will

52:05

benefit to folks and I think.

52:07

It. Was allowed to proliferate and grow.

52:10

In that direction because no one was.

52:13

Covering. It critically and no one

52:15

was. Was. Saying. Wait

52:18

a minute. Does. This really do anything

52:20

to make something better for like a

52:22

Hispanic guy who is oh, wanting X

52:24

y Z improvement in his life? No,

52:27

not really and I think that it's

52:29

hard to. So many facets of the

52:31

last few years and and the movement

52:33

that. I used to see

52:35

as my movement. Which. Is

52:37

progressive, Politics And you

52:40

see it with Black Lives

52:42

Matter. Corporate Rights. Black Lives

52:44

Matter. It's a very good name.

52:46

For. A. Major. Fundraising

52:49

operation. And. It

52:51

was a major fundraising operation that raised

52:53

money. Off. Of the

52:55

names and faces literally. Have

52:58

murdered black children, What? Exactly

53:00

did. That. Big nonprofit

53:02

do with that money. To. Report

53:04

on that to ask that. Was.

53:07

Considered. White. Supremacy.

53:09

Was. Considered racist. It

53:12

was. Not. Allowed within

53:14

the mainstream media and and it took

53:16

a few years until finally you saw

53:18

some in the liberal media starts report

53:20

on what did happen with his finances.

53:22

Would it would? It was years after

53:25

all the money had been rest. Of

53:27

the spaces and as Daves A and you

53:29

see the parents of those kids safe. We're.

53:32

Not seeing a penny of that's why are you

53:34

reason this money off of my child like tamir

53:36

rice is my end of may arise as love

53:38

I quote I mean Islam is like hunting This

53:40

kid is. Shot. Within seconds

53:42

of the cops pulling up to a

53:45

park, he's killed and Blm. Uses

53:48

this horrific moments to raise enormous amounts

53:50

of money is and and it doesn't.

53:52

Not only does not benefit family, which

53:54

you could make arguments that say sure,

53:56

this isn't about giving has to the

53:59

mob or what. whatever, although it probably

54:01

ought to be, but it's

54:03

about doing these real changes. Well, what real

54:05

changes happen? The

54:08

leaders of BLM go and buy themselves beautiful

54:11

party homes. They

54:13

buy, basically, they just have

54:15

a lot of fun with the cash. And so

54:18

by not covering it, by not reporting on

54:20

it critically, by ignoring it or just celebrating

54:23

it blindly and saying anything else is

54:25

racist, you allow a movement, you allow

54:28

things that are actually toxic, that are

54:30

actually doing the opposite of good, that

54:32

are taking good intentions, that are taking

54:34

money from well-intentioned people, friends

54:37

of ours, people we like, nice,

54:39

kind people who want to help the

54:42

world be better, taking their money and

54:44

basically stealing it and basically using it

54:46

for whatever they want, whatever silly

54:48

ways. And it was time

54:51

and again in all of this branches of

54:54

progressive action that I often

54:56

support. No one wants to

54:58

mere rights to get shot. No

55:00

one wants people to wander around

55:02

saying racist things. It was time

55:05

and again, things that were, I

55:07

thought I wanted the same outcome,

55:09

but the process becomes this corrupt

55:12

nightmare. And to report on it

55:14

or question it is to be on the wrong side of

55:16

history, to be on the side of evil. And

55:19

that to me is the most frustrating part of

55:21

the last few years. One

55:23

of the areas where you have

55:26

policies that many sort of good liberals

55:28

are going along with thinking that these

55:31

are just, these are fair, this is

55:33

what social justice looks like, are

55:36

the policies that your hometown of

55:38

San Francisco has embraced.

55:41

And whether it's decriminalizing drug

55:43

use, open air, drug

55:46

sites, whether it's, well,

55:48

why don't you tell us the story of

55:50

San Francisco over the past decade? My

55:53

argument is basically that San Francisco is America,

55:55

but five years ahead. So you

55:57

can see where a lot of progressive policies.

56:00

Play out. You can see what it looks like. And

56:03

now, in

56:05

my hometown, you can see the backlash. So,

56:07

and the course correction and the reform

56:10

that's happening. But for many

56:12

years, the city of San Francisco

56:14

run at every level by progressives. Like, I'm not even

56:16

talking about this. There's not like

56:18

a moderate Democrat inside. Everyone's a progressive. Everyone's a

56:20

leftist. It's just sort of, are you Bernie

56:23

Sanders or Elizabeth Warren? It

56:25

became a city where the

56:28

ideals and the message

56:30

were all that mattered. And the actual

56:34

thing you were seeing, I hate to use

56:36

the phrase, but the lived experience of being

56:38

in San Francisco betrayed

56:40

the rhetoric. So, the

56:43

harm reduction and drug legalization, basically,

56:45

which is what happened there for

56:47

years, the harm reduction policies,

56:50

which were like, we're not going

56:52

to try to make people get clean from drugs.

56:54

We're just going to make it less likely that

56:56

they're going to very quickly die of the

56:59

drug. We're going to bring them food. You

57:02

walk around the city of San Francisco and

57:04

there are blocks and blocks where,

57:07

as you're walking, you're passing

57:09

people who are just on the sidewalk

57:12

slowly dying. It's always

57:15

been a reality of West Coast cities that

57:17

you would see people come

57:20

for the services to use drugs

57:22

and because it tended to be more lax than

57:25

the weather. But over the last few years,

57:27

you saw that accelerate and it

57:30

required coarsening yourself to live

57:32

in San Francisco. LA to some extent, but

57:34

we don't walk as much here. So, you're

57:37

not in it as much, but in San Francisco, it required

57:39

living in such a way that you

57:41

told yourself you were being

57:43

a good progressive by walking

57:45

past a person whose limbs

57:47

were rotting and who was very

57:51

clearly dying on the sidewalk.

57:54

And to walk past them was

57:56

the only proper solution. And

57:58

what I mean is that they were... getting tons

58:00

of services, they were getting tons of support.

58:02

You often have food next to them, they've

58:04

got a clean tent, they've got all the

58:06

supplies. But the adamant,

58:10

fierce empathy behind

58:12

policies that say we are not

58:14

going to force anyone to

58:17

get clean before we give

58:19

them support on the street. We are not going to force

58:21

anyone to stop doing drugs. We're not going to get involved

58:23

here other than to help and to support as

58:26

they slowly die. And our

58:28

job as the city and as doctors

58:30

hired by the city is just to

58:32

kind of support them and make it

58:34

as painless of death on that sidewalk

58:36

as possible. And that was the per

58:39

progressive take on what to do. And

58:41

it just, at a certain point, I mean,

58:43

my whole life I grew up in the city, I was

58:45

a reporter in the city, I obviously saw that my

58:47

whole life. And at a certain point, I

58:50

just called bullshit. And

58:52

I just was like, this, this isn't empathetic.

58:56

This isn't kind. This

58:58

is someone dying on the sidewalk, walking

59:01

past them, or leaving them some food,

59:03

or making sure they get a monthly

59:05

stipend from the city is not empathy.

59:08

It's slowly helping them die. And once

59:12

I noticed that, I started

59:14

seeing a lot of what else was going on in the

59:16

city. And you start

59:19

to see it's not hypocrisy, because they

59:21

are saying what they mean. And

59:23

they're doing what they mean. It's

59:26

that actually, maybe some of

59:28

the policies I used to believe in were

59:30

flawed. And maybe some of them were

59:32

not just flawed, but really wrong

59:35

and maybe kind of actually cruel. Well, when

59:37

we met, I remember one of our early

59:39

times we met, we were

59:41

talking about school choice. And it was an issue that

59:44

I had covered a lot when I was on

59:46

the editorial page, on the op-ed page of the

59:48

journal. And you were like, oh, I'm

59:50

against charter schools. And I was like, I

59:54

was like, why? And it was just

59:56

one of the things at

59:58

the time that it was like, okay, if you're

1:00:00

a good progressive, like you need to be on the

1:00:02

side of unions and you need to be against school

1:00:05

choice. And I think that you

1:00:07

maybe started to question that, you

1:00:09

know, when algebra

1:00:11

itself became something that was

1:00:14

verboten in a place like San Francisco.

1:00:16

Yeah. And this was a story

1:00:18

that I had wanted to, I wanted to do

1:00:20

this big San Francisco story at the time that

1:00:23

it became, it obviously wasn't going to be possible.

1:00:25

And I ended up, I first published it in the Atlantic. So

1:00:28

one factor was watching people die on the

1:00:30

street. And the other factor was realizing

1:00:32

some of the really insane policies

1:00:34

around education that were in the

1:00:37

city. The city decided

1:00:39

to drop accelerated eighth

1:00:41

grade algebra. And so eighth

1:00:44

graders could no longer test

1:00:46

into accelerated algebra, which had

1:00:48

been a real pathway for a lot of

1:00:50

kids who were good at math to get

1:00:53

into better high schools to then be more

1:00:55

competitive applicants for college, whatever, all the reasons

1:00:57

why you want to like be able to

1:00:59

take calculus senior year of high school and

1:01:01

all that. It was bad.

1:01:04

It was made illegal to teach

1:01:06

basically. And what happened then immediately

1:01:08

is that any kid from

1:01:10

a middle class family where the

1:01:12

family can afford to pay for tutors,

1:01:15

they would do just eighth grade algebra separately

1:01:17

paid by their parents. And it

1:01:20

just was an insane notion. This idea

1:01:22

that we should not allow accelerated courses

1:01:25

doesn't make sense. It only makes sense in

1:01:27

a punitive way. It only makes sense actually

1:01:30

in the way of how the anti-racist

1:01:32

movement says the

1:01:34

goal is not to improve the situation.

1:01:37

The goal is not to expand the

1:01:39

boardroom. The goal is to dismantle the boardroom. So

1:01:42

it only makes sense in the way of the

1:01:44

argument that says excellence

1:01:46

in math and

1:01:48

rewarding the excellent is not

1:01:51

the goal and actually is an evil

1:01:53

act. It actually is the

1:01:56

word of the day. It's racist. This

1:02:00

was having a my home town and I

1:02:02

ended up. Doing. A

1:02:04

story, not not just. On all these sort of

1:02:07

wacky things that were going on or very upsetting things with

1:02:09

the case of. The. What was

1:02:11

going on with overdoses and San Francisco.

1:02:13

More. People overdosed on Sentinel, the.of

1:02:16

Covert and San Francisco for

1:02:18

year, but. What? I ended up

1:02:20

from forty on was the Reformation movement and this was.

1:02:23

A thing that I made me really hopeful

1:02:25

which is basically a bunch of liberals got

1:02:27

together in the city and said. Enough.

1:02:30

Is enough. Were. Opening our

1:02:32

eyes and seeing the reality of

1:02:34

the world and see me overdose

1:02:36

deaths sore and seen kids struggling

1:02:38

in the southern schools are able

1:02:40

to learn. Accelerated math and

1:02:42

getting screwed for Roger. Whatever what we're

1:02:44

open our eyes and seeing the reality

1:02:46

what's happening in the city and will

1:02:48

make some changes. And so

1:02:50

all the sudden San Francisco had. An

1:02:54

internal liberal reformation you had

1:02:56

to the first time in

1:02:58

decades. A recall. Of

1:03:00

not just. The. School Board.

1:03:03

The. School board had gotten in particular

1:03:05

trouble because they had been talking

1:03:07

about how Asian parents are actually

1:03:10

secretly always. The premises be kind of

1:03:12

right a loading them I've yeah yeah this

1:03:14

is this is a whole thing But also

1:03:16

recall of the District Attorney. And. So

1:03:18

as for in. The

1:03:21

intensity of twenty forty forty forty one Forty

1:03:23

Forty Two. I saw in

1:03:25

San Francisco. A. Movement of

1:03:27

really identified with which was kind of

1:03:29

the moderate liberal standing up and say

1:03:31

enough is enough we want to be

1:03:33

based in reality we want to be

1:03:35

doing things that actually help people. Sunil.

1:03:38

I think people were here at

1:03:40

this conversation and will be talking

1:03:43

about size or Portland or this

1:03:45

by the De Angelo training or

1:03:47

how algebra as racist and think

1:03:49

okay. Oh, absurd, but.

1:03:52

Are you just not picking here?

1:03:54

Are you just picking up on

1:03:56

the most absurd excesses of the

1:03:58

American? Last, and. Aiming that it's something

1:04:00

bigger than it. Is what would you say

1:04:02

to the person Hill Plaza. I

1:04:05

would say that that's. Willful Ny

1:04:08

of town there, and I would

1:04:10

say that to pretend like Robin

1:04:12

the Angela wasn't an enormously in

1:04:14

central figure, that the list of

1:04:16

White supremacy characteristics wasn't enormously influential

1:04:18

even though you had to sassoon.

1:04:20

A museum in a poster of it's. To pretend

1:04:23

like the. Policies. Run

1:04:25

Homelessness and drugs were some fringe

1:04:27

silly thing when the entire American

1:04:29

West. Follows. This to

1:04:31

pretend like. This was.

1:04:34

Silly. Sideshows, Is

1:04:36

to lie. And. Maybe waterline now.

1:04:39

Maybe. You're embarrassed about it? Maybe want

1:04:41

to say. No. One ever said

1:04:43

abolish the Police. This is what people say. No, I

1:04:46

know, I'm aware. But. It has

1:04:48

it. And. I was there. And.

1:04:50

People did argue to abolish the police.

1:04:53

People. Did argue? That. Accelerated

1:04:56

Math is racist. Still argue that

1:04:58

I mean the memory holding that

1:05:00

we're we're we're seeing or the

1:05:02

attempt to. Pretend. Like these

1:05:04

arguments are more rational than they are.

1:05:07

I don't blame people. I. Probably

1:05:09

would too. After

1:05:18

the break more with my wife. Nellie

1:05:20

Bulls will be right back. The

1:05:32

last chapter of your book I

1:05:34

think is so beautiful. And vulnerable.

1:05:37

And it's really about your decision to

1:05:39

break away from the old world. And

1:05:41

I want you to tell us about

1:05:44

the class decision point you face about

1:05:46

whether or not to join in on

1:05:48

canceling someone who was a colleague and

1:05:51

as is now good friend of ours

1:05:53

and why decided not to. So.

1:05:57

My real and. With

1:05:59

the move. came when

1:06:01

I didn't cancel someone. And

1:06:04

before that, I'd canceled a

1:06:06

person or two. I'd been part

1:06:08

of it. I'd been part of whatever

1:06:10

the call of the day was. I hadn't

1:06:13

questioned it, and I'd done

1:06:15

it quite gleefully. Wow. And what's

1:06:18

gleeful about it? What's joyful about

1:06:20

canceling someone? In one of the

1:06:22

chapters, I write about canceling

1:06:24

a friend, and it was

1:06:28

a positive

1:06:30

experience doing it, because

1:06:34

I felt immense

1:06:36

camaraderie with my

1:06:38

community while I was doing it. I

1:06:40

felt like I was doing justice. And

1:06:44

the person that I was canceling was someone who

1:06:46

was just very similar to me, very closely

1:06:49

aligned politically, but had stepped out of

1:06:51

line a little bit. I

1:06:53

just want to read this line that I think is so true

1:06:55

and smart, where you say, a cancellation isn't

1:06:57

about finding a conservative and yelling at them.

1:07:00

It's about finding the betrayer in your midst.

1:07:03

Yeah, so I had been a very good

1:07:05

soldier of the movement, but

1:07:07

there was a day that came when

1:07:10

I couldn't join in a

1:07:12

cancellation mob. And it sounds

1:07:14

so—I keep saying this, but so silly.

1:07:17

But when you're in it, these feel

1:07:19

so—they feel like the most important thing in

1:07:21

the world. And basically, there

1:07:24

was a young man, a colleague of both

1:07:26

of ours, who had been involved with

1:07:28

an op-ed that got everyone really upset

1:07:30

that day. And we

1:07:32

were all supposed to tweet that the

1:07:35

op-ed put our black colleagues in danger

1:07:38

and basically called for this young man to be fired.

1:07:41

And I couldn't do it. I

1:07:44

have this anxiety response where

1:07:46

my arms go limp when I'm really

1:07:48

anxious. Like, it's like a

1:07:51

psychosomatic problem. And

1:07:54

I remember sitting in the

1:07:56

apartment, and my arms were limp, and I

1:07:58

was so sorry. sweating and I

1:08:00

was just like, this is so pathetic. I

1:08:04

can't believe I can't do this, but I just

1:08:07

couldn't cancel him. I couldn't tweet out the tweet

1:08:09

we were all supposed to tweet. And

1:08:13

because of that, I mean, also for

1:08:16

a listener, this

1:08:18

is the only point of mild bravery

1:08:20

in the entire book. It's all about

1:08:22

me going along with everything. And

1:08:25

the only thing I do to mildly

1:08:27

protest is just not do a

1:08:29

cancellation one time. So this

1:08:32

is my heroics. And

1:08:34

I just couldn't do it. And I didn't,

1:08:37

I didn't do it. And what happened? And

1:08:39

from that, several friends

1:08:42

reached out and on

1:08:44

that very day ended their friendships with me. It

1:08:48

was stunning, one very good friend. And

1:08:52

I realized that

1:08:54

I was done. That the movement

1:08:56

was done with me and I was done with the movement

1:08:58

and I just couldn't force

1:09:01

it anymore. And I think

1:09:05

part of what had happened was, I

1:09:08

think it was two things. I'm

1:09:11

really close with a lot of my family

1:09:13

members. They all have really

1:09:15

different politics. Some of

1:09:17

them are really conservative. I've

1:09:19

been real conservatives. I don't mean like never drummers

1:09:21

like your dad over here. I mean

1:09:23

like Trump might be a little soft people. And

1:09:28

we may or may not be thinking of the same

1:09:30

uncle. We love. And

1:09:32

I love my family members. And

1:09:35

I was having a really

1:09:37

hard time with some of the really

1:09:40

wild rhetoric that was being said

1:09:42

about folks like this. It

1:09:45

wasn't sitting right with me. So

1:09:47

there was that that was happening kind of in my heart. I

1:09:51

was like, I'm not gonna, I can't say this

1:09:53

about everyone who disagrees with me politically is

1:09:56

not like a Nazi who deserves to be

1:09:58

like, have their vote taken away. It

1:10:00

just isn't the case. They're just they just disagree,

1:10:02

but we can still all have a

1:10:04

nice Thanksgiving and So

1:10:07

there was that and then there was also

1:10:09

that I had really I mean we were together I'd

1:10:11

fallen in love with you fully and

1:10:13

completely and and You

1:10:16

were someone who this group was constantly

1:10:18

trying to cancel and constantly trying to

1:10:20

disavow and constantly disavowing and

1:10:23

so I had seen that

1:10:25

and I'd seen How

1:10:29

absurd it was and how

1:10:31

flattening this movement was now

1:10:33

how flat it wanted to make our lives

1:10:37

how uncomplicated when life is complicated and

1:10:39

politics are complicated and humans are complicated

1:10:41

like I Just

1:10:45

am not gonna like put

1:10:47

these strict ridiculous boundaries on

1:10:51

Who can be in my world and who

1:10:53

can't be so anyways, so those two factors

1:10:57

Made it so I just couldn't cancel that day.

1:10:59

I couldn't tweet the tweet. I couldn't tweet

1:11:01

the fucking tweet One

1:11:03

thing I needed to do it. I couldn't do it and

1:11:05

and then and then it was done and

1:11:08

then I was I was really out There's

1:11:11

a freeze that like Was

1:11:13

just sort of like in the water when you and

1:11:15

I were in college This

1:11:17

idea of like the personal is political the personal

1:11:19

is political We said it all the time and

1:11:22

in a way I I always think back to

1:11:24

this moment for us because it was

1:11:26

you sort of saying like actually no actually,

1:11:29

there are certain things in life that

1:11:31

are more important than politics and That

1:11:35

if you drag them into the

1:11:37

political realm and you force everything

1:11:39

through the sieve or the filter

1:11:41

of the political You

1:11:43

will live a great life

1:11:46

where everything is Same

1:11:49

and where there is no difference

1:11:51

or friction or Frigion

1:11:55

really yeah, and you

1:11:57

were sort of I don't know it was One

1:12:00

of those moments where I was like, oh wait,

1:12:02

that bromide that I've repeated so many times, I

1:12:05

actually fully reject that. Yeah. And

1:12:08

in a way, the idea of the personal being political,

1:12:10

it kind of is, but it's also like totalizing.

1:12:13

Yes. Because if you

1:12:16

make the personal political, then you have

1:12:18

to cut off that family member. Yeah.

1:12:21

Actually. So that was the end of that

1:12:23

era of my life really. And

1:12:26

it felt, I mean, it's the same

1:12:28

way that I felt the camaraderie of being

1:12:30

part of canceling people and

1:12:32

the camaraderie of being part

1:12:34

of feeling on

1:12:37

the side of justice. Releasing

1:12:39

myself from the confines of

1:12:41

that movement also felt good. I

1:12:44

think a lot of people who

1:12:46

have followed your work will

1:12:49

say, well, you've

1:12:51

changed, Nelly. You've changed. You

1:12:54

know, they may use a phrase like you've been

1:12:56

red pilled or you became red wing or you've

1:12:58

been mugged by reality or you grew

1:13:00

up and to be young is to be a

1:13:02

leftist, to be older is to be a conservative.

1:13:06

Have you changed? I don't grapple with

1:13:08

the person that says you've changed.

1:13:10

Is it true or is it not true? Of

1:13:13

course it's true that

1:13:16

I've grown and evolved

1:13:18

and that I see evidence. And

1:13:22

my ideas and politics

1:13:24

change based on evidence. Like

1:13:27

I used to be really

1:13:29

adamant about drug

1:13:31

legalization. And the more I

1:13:33

saw those streets in San Francisco, the first

1:13:36

less adamant I became. And then

1:13:39

now I think drug legalization is maybe not a

1:13:41

good idea. Maybe fentanyl should be illegal, which

1:13:44

I think technically it is in most places,

1:13:46

but it's not in practice. But

1:13:49

I reject the movement

1:13:52

that says, unless you are

1:13:55

for the totality and extreme

1:13:57

new random.

1:14:00

random fringe philosophy here,

1:14:03

random fringe political belief you need to

1:14:05

have. Unless you're for that, you're

1:14:07

out. You're right wing, you're

1:14:09

red pill, you're this. And

1:14:12

I just reject that idea

1:14:14

of these two random extremes. Just

1:14:18

because I didn't cancel a friend that day doesn't

1:14:21

mean all of a sudden, okay, yeah,

1:14:23

I'm also pro-life. But yeah, I also

1:14:25

think life can begin in a Petri

1:14:27

dish and now we have to, it's

1:14:29

like this idea that because you're not

1:14:31

for every plank of something that you're

1:14:33

completely on the out, you're right wing.

1:14:35

I mean, that is what the movement

1:14:38

says, certainly. And that is what my

1:14:40

critics say. And

1:14:42

that's their prerogative, they can say that. And they'll

1:14:45

scream it from rooftops. I mean, basically

1:14:48

anyone who strays

1:14:50

a tiny bit from whatever the absolute

1:14:52

progressive orthodoxy of the day is,

1:14:54

is labeled a right winger. And

1:14:57

it doesn't matter what your

1:14:59

politics are, actually. It just

1:15:01

matters that that little hair that

1:15:03

you strained and

1:15:05

you really wronged there. And

1:15:07

by doing that little stray, all

1:15:10

of you is suspect and all of you

1:15:12

is gone. And the biggest insult that

1:15:14

the community can think of is you're right wing. Which

1:15:17

is fine, I mean, it's just

1:15:19

funny because I believe in universal health care and

1:15:21

I'm pro-choice and all of these things. So it's

1:15:24

technically not true, but I'm sort

1:15:26

of like, whatever

1:15:28

labels you wanna throw at people,

1:15:30

they throw labels about everything. And

1:15:33

in a lot of ways, it makes a lot of the labels. Like the

1:15:36

movement ruined terms

1:15:39

like sexist or

1:15:42

racist or homophobic by using it to

1:15:44

describe everything. So then when we're actually

1:15:46

confronted with like a Nick Fuentes, we've

1:15:48

run out of words. We

1:15:51

don't have the words to describe him

1:15:53

because if everyone is

1:15:55

racist and toddlers are racist, then

1:15:57

how in the hell do you describe Nick

1:15:59

Fuentes? Your tongue

1:16:01

tied because you used

1:16:03

it up. And so

1:16:06

sure, yeah, the movement would describe me. I'm

1:16:09

sure at this point they'd call me homophobic. I

1:16:11

don't know. But, yeah, I

1:16:13

rejected. Well,

1:16:18

one of the things that you're doing is

1:16:20

building the free press with me. And

1:16:22

I guess I would love to maybe end there.

1:16:25

It's like, you know, I didn't have the same,

1:16:27

I don't know, I wasn't wearing the same

1:16:29

rose-colored glasses when I went to The New York Times.

1:16:31

I thought, can't believe I made it here. Let's see

1:16:33

how long it lasts. You thought, I'm

1:16:35

going to be here forever, and my new last name

1:16:37

is on Nellie Bowles in The New York Times. Well,

1:16:40

now you're Nellie Bowles of the free press, and

1:16:42

we're building this new thing. And we're

1:16:45

trying, I think, in our way to

1:16:47

uphold the values and

1:16:50

pursue the curiosity that led us both in

1:16:52

our way to become journalists in the

1:16:54

first place. But to do it

1:16:56

without the tightening

1:16:58

that I think you so powerfully capture

1:17:01

in morning after the revolution. So

1:17:04

how's it going? And how does it feel

1:17:06

to be part of a new

1:17:08

journalistic enterprise when, you

1:17:10

know, you were the girl that sat in front of the

1:17:12

mirror practicing saying on Nellie Bowles of The New York Times,

1:17:16

Letting go of the prestige mindset

1:17:19

is not easy, especially for

1:17:21

a good American girl

1:17:23

who's always been a good student and wants to be good

1:17:25

and wants to please. But letting

1:17:27

go of the prestige mindset is something we absolutely have

1:17:29

to do, because the old institutions

1:17:32

have rotted themselves out. They

1:17:35

are empty from the inside.

1:17:38

They have the names. They

1:17:40

have the gorgeous branding. The slogans

1:17:42

are hollow. And so you

1:17:45

have to release them. You have

1:17:47

to accept that hollowness and

1:17:50

live your life accordingly. And

1:17:53

I think starting our

1:17:55

own thing has been unbelievable.

1:18:00

The title of this book is Morning After the

1:18:03

Revolution, and that

1:18:05

implies that we're after it. I

1:18:07

think a lot of people in this moment are

1:18:09

looking at, they call it

1:18:11

this, at least at Harvard, the student in Nevada,

1:18:14

or they're looking all around the country

1:18:16

and evidence that the revolution is not

1:18:18

just after, it's

1:18:20

just beginning. How do you understand where

1:18:23

we are in the

1:18:25

life of this thing that you wrote about here

1:18:27

and that you continue to capture every single week

1:18:29

in your column for the free press? There's

1:18:33

two answers to that. But first, the

1:18:36

revolution didn't end

1:18:38

because it lost, it

1:18:41

ended because it won. It

1:18:44

doesn't need to be as loud as it

1:18:46

was. It doesn't need to be huge, thousands

1:18:50

and thousands of people in this street lighting

1:18:53

buildings on fire anymore because the

1:18:56

revolution that I'm writing about is now

1:18:59

fully ingrained in our American

1:19:01

institutions. It's the DEI

1:19:03

statement you have to write in order to

1:19:05

get a job at any university. It's

1:19:08

fully enmeshed in

1:19:11

our corporate life, in

1:19:14

every layer of American

1:19:17

liberal and American elite, every

1:19:19

museum job, it's won. It

1:19:23

doesn't need to be so loud. No.

1:19:27

As to what's happening on college campuses, obviously

1:19:29

that's a new explosion

1:19:31

of a

1:19:33

lot of what we've seen over the last years. It's

1:19:35

another iteration of it. I think

1:19:38

back a lot to the Antifa

1:19:40

movement. At

1:19:42

the time, it was considered, as

1:19:44

we've talked about, so controversial to

1:19:46

say that Antifa was part of

1:19:48

things because it was controversial to

1:19:50

say that the threat of violence

1:19:53

was part of things. The

1:19:55

win now, the reason why the revolution

1:19:58

is. done

1:20:00

and has won is because now in

1:20:02

all of those protests, there's

1:20:04

not an effort to downplay that violence

1:20:07

is on the table. And

1:20:09

you hear it in the rhetoric. You hear it in there's

1:20:12

only one solution, intifada revolution. You

1:20:15

hear it in glory to our

1:20:17

martyrs. This is the glorification

1:20:19

of violence, and these are calls for violence.

1:20:22

These are not anti-war protests. These are

1:20:24

pro-war protests, which is fine. You argue

1:20:27

for a war, argue for violence. The

1:20:29

media should at least call it what it is. But violence

1:20:33

is not controversial. And I

1:20:35

think now we're entering the kind

1:20:37

of post-revolution moment where all

1:20:40

of those goals that we saw have been now achieved.

1:20:50

Nellie Pauls, thanks for coming on, honestly. This

1:20:53

was a pleasure. Thanks

1:20:59

for listening. Please go check out Nellie's book.

1:21:01

And by check out, I mean buy it.

1:21:03

It's called Morning After the Revolution, dispatches

1:21:05

from the wrong side of history, wherever

1:21:07

you prefer to get your books. Also,

1:21:10

we are launching a new project over

1:21:12

at the Free Press, and that is

1:21:15

a monthly book club. This month hosted

1:21:17

by Nellie. We choose one new book

1:21:19

and one old one, and I think

1:21:21

you will love it. To find out

1:21:24

more about that, and to support our

1:21:26

journalism, go to the Free Press's website

1:21:28

at vfp.com and become a subscriber today.

1:21:31

I'll see you next time. Some

1:21:44

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