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Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Released Monday, 5th June 2023
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Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Mary Shelley Brings Frankenstein to Life

Monday, 5th June 2023
Good episode? Give it some love!
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Episode Transcript

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0:00

The History Channel original podcast.

0:04

History This Week, June 10th, 1816.

0:13

I'm Sally Helm. Lightning

0:19

above the lake. A

0:23

group of famous friends is gathered

0:25

at a villa in Switzerland. The

0:27

poet Lord Byron has rented the place.

0:30

He just moved in today. His guests

0:32

include his lover, Clare Godwin,

0:35

his doctor, John Polidori, and

0:37

also the poet Percy Bysshe Shelley,

0:40

and Mary Godwin, who is Shelley's

0:43

lover. It's

0:45

a summer alpine vacation, but

0:48

there is no sun sparkling on

0:50

the lake. 1816 has been unusually dark

0:52

and dreary. Some

0:56

are actually calling it the year without

0:59

summer. A volcanic eruption

1:01

in Indonesia has spewed so

1:03

much ash and lava and sulfur

1:06

into the air that a massive cloud

1:09

is drifting across the globe and

1:11

distorting the weather. There's

1:14

frost when it should be warm, dark

1:17

clouds when the day would normally be

1:19

bright. And so

1:22

these

1:22

pleasure-seeking poets are

1:25

stuck inside, trying to pass

1:27

the time. They've

1:30

gotten their hands on a book of ghost

1:33

stories, which feels right for

1:35

the gloomy setting. And after

1:37

a couple of days of rain, Lord

1:40

Byron comes up with an idea, a

1:43

challenge. He says, we will

1:46

each write a ghost

1:48

story.

1:51

At that moment, Lord Byron

1:54

is the most famous writer in

1:56

the English-speaking world. He

1:58

might reasonably.

1:59

expect to win his own challenge.

2:03

But not to be underestimated

2:05

is 18-year-old Mary

2:08

Godwin, who's about to have an idea

2:10

so ghostly that

2:13

it will tip over into

2:14

horror. The

2:16

title of her story remains iconic

2:19

to this day. Frankenstein.

2:22

Today, a monster is born.

2:29

How did Mary Godwin draw from her

2:32

life to write this famous novel?

2:35

And why have we now been talking

2:37

about her creation for more than 200

2:39

years?

2:48

Hey, babe. What you got there? This is a check from Carvana.

2:50

I just sold my car to them. I went online and Carvana

2:52

gave me an offer right away. Then they just picked up the

2:54

car and gave me this.

2:55

That's a big check. Well, obviously,

2:58

you could put this towards your next car, or we could finally

3:00

get that jacuzzi, or I could start

3:02

taking tuba lessons, or I could quit my job

3:04

and write my memoir.

3:06

Or I can put it towards my next car with

3:08

Carvana. Sorry, your check, not

3:10

mine. Sell your car to Carvana. Visit

3:12

carvana.com or download the app

3:14

to get a real offer in seconds.

3:19

Mary

3:24

Godwin learns to read by tracing the letters

3:26

on a tombstone.

3:27

Her dad takes her to the graveyard

3:31

where her mom is buried and teaches her how to

3:33

read. This is a true story

3:36

on her mom's grave. Wow. I

3:38

know. It's true. It really is

3:40

a true story.

3:43

This is author

3:45

Charlotte Gordon. She's a very famous author.

3:48

She's a very famous author. This is author

3:50

Charlotte Gordon. She says

3:52

it is almost too fitting

3:55

because the works that Mary will later write are

3:58

so much about death. The

4:00

monster at the center of her most famous novel,

4:03

Frankenstein, is made of

4:05

human cadavers.

4:08

And Mary's own birth was

4:10

haunted by death. Her

4:12

mother died of complications

4:15

after the delivery. Not

4:17

only that, the two shared

4:19

a first name. So when

4:21

Little Mary traces the letters on that

4:23

tombstone, she is actually tracing

4:26

her own name.

4:28

So it's Mary Godwin,

4:31

Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin. And

4:34

her mother's most famous accomplishment

4:36

is chiseled right there on the headstone.

4:39

Author of A Vindication

4:42

of the Rights of Woman. Mary

4:44

Wollstonecraft was one of the first writers

4:46

in English to advocate for women's rights

4:49

to money, education, and independence.

4:52

So Little Mary's first words

4:54

are her mom's name,

4:56

which is her name, and vindication,

4:58

and woman. It's not

5:01

like a dog and cat, you know? When

5:03

she was alive, not everyone had

5:06

been ready for Mary Wollstonecraft's ideas,

5:08

to put it mildly.

5:10

She was called a whore. I think

5:12

a hyena and petticoats is one of the

5:15

famous horrible things they said. But

5:17

Mary Godwin had been brought up to

5:19

revere her dead mother. Mary

5:22

Wollstonecraft's books were all over the shelves.

5:24

There was a gigantic portrait of her on the wall,

5:27

pregnant with Mary. Perhaps

5:29

it's no wonder that by the time Mary

5:31

is a teen, she has embraced

5:34

her mother's example. Mary

5:36

had already decided from the time she was a

5:38

little girl that she was going to carry

5:40

forward the revolutionary

5:42

ideas of her mom. Her

5:47

father, William Godwin, is a radical

5:49

in his own right, a famous anarchist.

5:52

They get along really well,

5:54

but Mary does not get along

5:56

with her stepmother,

5:57

who favors her daughter, Jane, Mary Wollstonecraft.

6:00

stepsister over Mary.

6:03

Jane's mother signs her up for French and

6:05

singing lessons. Meanwhile, Mary

6:08

and her stepmom can't stop fighting. It

6:11

gets so bad that Mary is sent away

6:13

to Scotland. But if

6:15

the plan is for that trip to calm

6:17

her down and make her follow the rules, no.

6:22

Scotland during this time period would

6:24

be like going to San Francisco

6:26

during Haight-Ashbury. It was a radical

6:29

hotbed of revolutionaries who were protesting

6:32

the English government. Mary

6:34

feels right at home. She

6:36

buys a tartan, the plaid cloth

6:39

symbolizing Scottish freedom. Kind

6:41

of like a tie-dyed t-shirt in 1970. And

6:44

she comes back to England and she wears

6:46

the tartan all the time as like

6:48

a declaration of what a radical she is. It's

6:51

back in England that

6:52

the 16-year-old Mary meets a

6:54

21-year-old poet who,

6:57

like her, wants to remake

6:59

the world. He is Percy

7:02

Bish Shelley.

7:04

And when he meets Mary, here's what he sees.

7:06

She was small, but she had reddish-goldish

7:09

hair that was apparently

7:11

one of her great beauties. And she was

7:13

very, very, very pale. And

7:15

there's descriptions of her during

7:18

this time as being kind of

7:20

magical-looking. Mary's

7:23

father invites Percy to dinner at

7:25

the family home in London, where

7:27

Percy gets a sense for what this pale,

7:30

red-haired teenager is like.

7:32

She was quiet,

7:34

but intense. There was nothing shy about

7:36

her, but she did not speak unless she had

7:38

something to say. And Percy Shelley, who's

7:40

he at this moment? You know, the first word that

7:42

comes to mind is lunatic. He

7:45

had been kicked out of college for atheism.

7:47

He had written a whole screed against

7:50

Christianity. He, too, was at constant

7:52

war with his parents. Percy

7:55

is a philosopher, a poet,

7:58

and not all that down to earth.

7:59

He had great ideas like, let's

8:02

put revolutionary messages in glass bottles

8:05

and throw them into the water, and

8:07

then they'll wash up on beaches and people will be inspired.

8:10

This is classic Percy, like incredibly

8:12

idealistic and not a practical bone in his

8:14

body. Mary is into it. His

8:18

hair was a little too long. He often

8:20

wore his shirt open so you could see his sexy

8:22

throat and, you know, chest. To

8:25

older people, he looked a little sketchy, I think. But

8:28

to a young woman, he looked super exciting.

8:29

So when she meets Percy,

8:32

it's pretty much love at first sight for

8:34

her. And she lets him know by

8:37

taking him to her favorite place, her

8:40

mother's grave. She says to him,

8:43

I love you. We are

8:45

soulmates.

8:50

At this moment, June of 1814,

8:54

Mary and Percy are in the grip of

8:56

a powerful movement called romanticism.

9:00

In some ways, romanticism is a reaction

9:03

against the Enlightenment, with its emphasis

9:05

on reason and order.

9:08

The romantics, on the other hand, prize

9:10

things like individual conscience

9:12

and imagination.

9:14

Their art pulses with emotion.

9:17

It exalts in the wildness of nature.

9:20

And it doesn't shy away from

9:22

the problem of death. So

9:25

Mary and Percy are standing in a graveyard

9:28

with her declaration, we

9:30

are soulmates hanging in

9:32

the air.

9:33

It's kind of the most romantic situation

9:35

possible. Percy looks

9:38

at Mary and says, I

9:40

feel the same. They are in

9:43

love. Now, the only

9:45

thing left to figure out is how to move

9:47

forward as a couple.

9:52

That is not going to be easy. Percy

9:54

has an estranged wife and two

9:57

children. Mary knows this. She

10:00

says, because you're married, we will have to run

10:02

away together. And that's what they

10:04

do. The couple runs off

10:06

to Paris, which creates a scandal.

10:10

Mary's family members are not happy, except

10:13

for one person. Her stepsister,

10:15

Jane, the pampered sibling with the

10:18

French and the singing lessons. She

10:20

actually joins them in Paris. When

10:23

they return to London, she changes her name

10:25

from Jane to Claire because she thinks

10:27

it sounds romantic. And eventually,

10:29

she gets tired of being

10:32

the third wheel. Claire wanted her own

10:34

poet. She wanted to have an exciting

10:36

affair. And there was probably no one

10:38

more famous during this time period than Lord

10:40

Byron. Lord Byron.

10:44

A hugely acclaimed poet, a

10:46

true celebrity, also known

10:49

for his shocking personal life. He

10:51

was really a scandalous guy. Byron

10:55

has had countless affairs

10:57

and at least one child out of wedlock.

10:59

He's had relationships with men

11:02

and women and an incestuous

11:04

dalliance with his half-sister.

11:07

One of his former lovers called him, mad,

11:10

bad, and dangerous to

11:12

know. He was another

11:15

rule breaker and extraordinarily

11:17

handsome and charismatic. Just

11:19

what Claire is looking for. She

11:22

propositions him by letter. And

11:24

he's like, sure. So they begin

11:26

an affair.

11:30

To Byron, it's just a fling.

11:33

But Claire has other ideas. So

11:35

she makes some plans. She

11:38

finds out that Byron is going to go to Geneva

11:40

for the summer. Then she convinces

11:42

Percy and Mary, who now calls herself

11:45

Mary Shelley, to bring their baby's

11:47

son on their own vacation with her

11:49

to Lake Geneva. She

11:51

has a feeling that Byron will be interested

11:53

in the Shelly's, this up-and-coming

11:56

poet and his mistress, the daughter of

11:58

famous radicals.

11:59

So in May of 1816, they all travel

12:02

to Switzerland.

12:08

Lord Byron shows up in typical

12:11

style. He was obsessed

12:13

with Napoleon, so when he arrived in Geneva,

12:16

he's got this carriage that he has designed

12:18

to look exactly like Napoleon's carriage.

12:21

He's also brought his menagerie.

12:24

Eight dogs, some monkeys, a falcon.

12:27

And tagging along is a young man

12:29

named Dr. John Pollardori. He's

12:32

supposed to be keeping track of Byron

12:34

to make sure Byron is writing. And he's

12:36

kind of an unhappy fellow. He wants

12:39

to be like them, but kind of isn't. And

12:41

is really put in this place of being this

12:43

kind of uncomfortable observer.

12:46

So what is the vibe around this party

12:49

in Lake Geneva? How are people talking about them?

12:52

There was one hotel that all the English

12:54

usually stayed at in Geneva. And

12:57

so that's where they're all staying initially. A

12:59

hotel where the British aristocracy

13:02

come to see and be seen.

13:04

And they find this group scandalous.

13:08

Adulterers. Ruined women. Poets.

13:12

The newspapers call this group of friends the

13:14

League of Incest. And every

13:16

time the two young women enter a room,

13:19

everyone is quiet. People turn their

13:21

backs on them. It's horrible.

13:24

So the whole group says, in effect, well,

13:26

if you don't want us, we don't want you.

13:29

They leave the hotel and camp to a

13:31

pair of vacation homes across the lake.

13:34

They're not far apart, 100 yards apart, and

13:36

they spend all their time together.

13:38

But the aristocratic hotel guests

13:40

are not done snooping. They

13:42

actually set up a telescope to keep those

13:45

poets in their disapproving eye. Until

13:49

storms sweep in and obscure

13:51

the view. Inside

13:54

those vacation homes, under threatening

13:57

skies, one of history's most

13:59

famous...

13:59

monsters will be born.

14:06

June 1816,

14:13

the year without summer. It

14:18

rains and it rains and it rains.

14:21

And you know you cannot keep a bunch

14:23

of romantic poets all cooped up without

14:25

something happening. It is during

14:28

one of those dreary days that

14:30

Byron throws down his famous

14:32

challenge.

14:34

We will each write

14:36

a ghost story.

14:39

They're really trying to create works

14:41

that provoke strong feelings in their readers.

14:45

And one of the strongest feelings that a reader can have

14:47

is fear and awe and trembling. Blank

14:51

pages on desks, ink pens in

14:53

hand, everyone gets to work. Byron

14:56

does start to write something and it turns into

14:58

Manfred, which is a long poem about

15:01

a magician. And Percy starts

15:03

to write something which turns into his

15:05

Prometheus Unbound. But it's

15:07

Mary who starts

15:09

writing immediately and really

15:11

does come up with a story that will

15:13

scare audiences for hundreds

15:16

of years after. Oh, so she wins the

15:18

ghost story challenge, we would say. Oh my God. Yeah,

15:20

the two men don't even write a ghost story. For

15:23

days, Mary writes, she's

15:26

totally absorbed by her story, which

15:28

is about making dead flesh

15:31

live again. She

15:33

writes and then she'll pass the notebook over to

15:36

Percy and he will make corrections

15:38

or changes and she'll either

15:39

accept them or not. When Percy

15:42

and Byron read her early pages,

15:44

they say, you're on to something.

15:47

She works feverishly on her manuscript

15:50

as the atmosphere around her starts

15:52

seeping into her scenes. The

15:55

dark, the cold in

15:58

the evening, she's gripped by.

15:59

Dr. Paula Dory's reading of lectures

16:02

on the life force. And she

16:04

ventures out into the Alps, then

16:07

pours what she sees there into

16:09

her journal. And so we have

16:11

these amazing descriptions of the journey

16:14

in the mountains, through the snowstorm

16:16

of the trees. Those passages,

16:19

almost unchanged, go right into

16:21

the novel. Never was

16:23

a scene more awfully desolate. The

16:26

trees in these regions are incredibly

16:28

large and stand

16:29

in scattered clumps over the white wilderness.

16:33

This bleak and forlorn and

16:35

powerful landscape where human beings

16:38

seem small and nature is very,

16:40

very, very big.

16:46

In Mary's book, one of those

16:49

small human beings tries

16:51

to bend nature to his

16:53

will.

16:57

The main character is Dr. Victor

17:00

Frankenstein. A very

17:02

brilliant young man who gets attracted

17:05

to the occult arts and

17:07

sciences. He realizes no

17:09

one has ever created life. And

17:11

that's what he wants to do. And he reads

17:14

and he studies and he keeps his ambition a secret.

17:17

He goes into graveyards and digs up body parts,

17:20

sews them together, and using electricity

17:23

creates a man who Mary

17:26

calls the creature.

17:27

The creature is brought

17:29

to life in this unnatural,

17:32

horrifying fashion. But

17:34

in his heart, he's innocent. And

17:37

right from the start, he feels

17:39

the world's cruelty. Dr.

17:42

Frankenstein takes one look at the creature

17:44

and runs away from him. So the creature

17:46

whose eyes are just opening doesn't

17:49

see anyone there. He's like, where's my dad?

17:51

And he starts going out into the countryside

17:54

looking for his father, looking for love,

17:56

looking for education.

17:57

He's lost like a child

18:00

a parent. And here again,

18:03

Mary is drawing from her own life.

18:06

Mary always felt implicated about

18:08

the death of her mom. You know, she herself

18:11

wouldn't have existence if her mom hadn't

18:14

given birth to her, and yet her mom dies

18:16

because she gives birth to her. It's this sort

18:18

of horrible collision of birth and death. A

18:21

collision that she'd experienced again

18:23

just a few years before. After

18:26

Paris, Mary and Percy

18:29

had a baby,

18:29

Clara, who was born

18:32

prematurely. The child only

18:34

lives a few days and breaks Mary's

18:36

heart by dying. Mary

18:39

has been plagued by dreams of Clara

18:41

for years. She wrote in her

18:43

journal, dreamt that my

18:46

little baby came to life again, that

18:49

it had only been cold and

18:51

that we rubbed it by the fire and it lived.

18:55

I awaken to find no baby. I think

18:58

about the little thing all day.

18:59

There's this tremendous

19:02

yearning to heal death.

19:08

You can feel it all through the pages of

19:11

Frankenstein. But the creature

19:13

himself yearns to

19:15

live. He's been abandoned

19:17

by his father. But then he

19:19

stumbles across some possible

19:22

friends.

19:26

He comes across a little cottage off

19:28

in the wilderness somewhere, and he's by

19:30

now learned that people are scared when they see

19:32

him. So he hides himself from the cottagers,

19:35

but he listens every night as they gather

19:38

around the fire and read to one another

19:40

and talk, and he loves them all so much.

19:43

So much that he resolves to thank

19:45

them in person.

19:47

I persuaded

19:48

myself that when they should become

19:50

acquainted with my admiration of their

19:52

virtues, they would overlook

19:55

my personal deformity. Could

19:58

they turn from their door?

19:59

You're one, however monstrous,

20:02

who solicited their

20:04

compassion and friendship.

20:08

Finally he gets up his nerve and he's

20:10

hoping that they will accept him and he

20:13

starts bringing them little presents, starts

20:15

cutting them wood and leaving it by the doorstep.

20:18

And one day finally goes and

20:20

says, hello, I'm your friend. They

20:24

run screaming away and he

20:27

is so mad and so hurt that

20:30

he burns the cottage down. Mary

20:32

writes movingly about

20:34

the creature's sorrow. She's

20:37

very concerned about the

20:39

cruelty of man to man, how

20:42

we treat people who are not like ourselves,

20:44

like herself, in fact, and Percy.

20:47

They have been treated with incredible cruelty, as

20:49

was her mother. Her mother was exiled.

20:52

So

20:53

when the creature is shunned by everybody

20:55

because of what he looks like,

20:57

we're meant to feel sorry for the creature.

21:04

Mary shares that feeling of exile

21:06

with other women of her time.

21:09

It is an incredibly repressive time to

21:11

be a woman.

21:12

Women have zero rights and if

21:14

they do rebel, they end up

21:16

experiencing social exile or tremendous

21:18

poverty, etc. Mary

21:21

feels all this especially keenly

21:23

in the autumn of 1816 when she returns to London

21:26

to revise

21:28

her manuscript. But as

21:31

she is finishing her ghost story, there

21:35

is a plague of

21:37

female suicides. The authorities

21:40

in London instituted a law

21:42

where they will

21:42

give rewards to people

21:45

if they will stand by the Thames

21:47

and look out for young women who keep flinging

21:50

themselves into the river. This

21:52

epidemic sweeps up two women

21:55

that Mary knows personally. One

21:57

of them is Percy's estranged wife.

21:59

Mary is filled

22:02

with guilt at their deaths. I

22:04

often feel that Frankenstein itself,

22:07

the text is haunted by these

22:09

women, and Mary herself says that, that she

22:11

has these dreams of both

22:13

women, and feels their ghosts are

22:16

in the book. Charlotte

22:18

Gordon says, the ideas that

22:20

Mary Wollstonecraft fought for, the

22:23

vindication of the rights of women,

22:26

she thinks those ideas show up

22:28

in the novel, Frankenstein.

22:29

This is actually

22:32

a book about women. People think I'm

22:34

crazy when I say that, because

22:37

all of the women end up getting killed by

22:39

the creature. The women in the novel

22:41

are pushed to the sidelines or killed,

22:44

while the man at the center, Victor

22:46

Frankenstein, plays God

22:48

by creating life on his own. The

22:51

result is a creature who's

22:54

motherless, like Mary was. I

22:57

would say this is a dystopian novel

22:59

about a world

22:59

without mothers, and a world without

23:02

strong women. Unchecked

23:04

male ambition, says Mary Shelley, is

23:07

going to wreak havoc on the world.

23:14

Frankenstein is a scientist,

23:16

and a callous, absent

23:19

parent. He's a horrible

23:21

father, and he's also a horrible inventor,

23:23

says

23:24

Mary. What you're supposed to do when

23:26

you invent something

23:27

is prepare the world for its arrival,

23:30

and then shepherd it into

23:32

the world yourself, so that no harm

23:35

can be done. Frankenstein

23:37

does not do that, and the

23:39

shunned creature strikes

23:42

back.

23:45

The creature starts his path of revenge,

23:48

and he's by now figured out who his father

23:50

is. And he goes to where

23:53

Dr. Frankenstein grew up,

23:54

and he kills members of Frankenstein's

23:57

family. And when

23:58

Frankenstein realizes that this is his life, he's a human being.

23:59

This monster is chasing him. They

24:02

have a big confrontation up in the Alps. All

24:05

men hate the wretched. How

24:08

then must I be hated

24:11

who are miserable beyond all

24:13

living things? Yet

24:16

you, my creator,

24:19

detest and spurn

24:22

me?

24:22

The creature says

24:24

he'll stop the killing if his creator

24:27

exumes more body parts and

24:29

stitches them into a companion.

24:33

The creature wants Frankenstein to make

24:35

him a partner because he's so lonely, please,

24:37

please, please make me a female creature. And

24:39

Frankenstein agrees and then he suddenly thinks,

24:42

wait, if I make a female creature,

24:44

I will have cursed the world with these dreadful

24:46

monsters. And I can't do it. And

24:48

that enrages the creature even more.

24:50

If you refuse,

24:53

I will glut the maw of

24:55

death until it be satiated

24:58

with the blood of your remaining

25:01

friends.

25:02

Ultimately, the

25:05

creature ends up killing everybody who was

25:07

important to Frankenstein, including his bride.

25:11

The book ends with the creature and the doctor

25:13

chasing each other across frozen wastes

25:16

at the far end of the world. By

25:19

this point, they're both human

25:22

and both monsters.

25:28

Frankenstein is published in 1818.

25:32

Its author is anonymous.

25:35

And Charlotte Gordon says it is not

25:38

an instant classic.

25:40

When the book is read, there are some people

25:42

who love it. If you're a novelist and a romantic,

25:45

you're probably going to like it. It certainly

25:47

didn't sell many copies.

25:49

But then it's mounted as a play.

25:54

The book becomes a smash hit when it's

25:56

on the stage. Some people hate

25:58

the play. say it's ungodly

26:01

the way this scientist takes on the power

26:03

of human creation. They're like, that

26:05

power should belong to God. And

26:08

when Mary reveals herself as the author

26:11

in 1821, many people are stunned. A

26:15

woman wrote this monstrous

26:17

thing? Decades later,

26:20

when the book is recognized as a masterpiece,

26:23

some scholars even assume that Percy

26:25

must have written it. Of course, he

26:28

didn't. It is Mary's

26:29

ghosts that haunt the novel's pages,

26:33

and her writing that has made the

26:35

story endure.

26:44

Thanks for listening to History This

26:46

Week. For moments throughout history

26:48

that are also worth watching, check your local

26:51

TV listings to find out what's on the

26:53

History Channel today. If

26:55

you want to get in touch, please shoot us an email

26:57

at our email address, historythisweekathistory.com,

27:01

or you can leave us a voicemail, 212-351-0410. Special

27:08

thanks to our guest, Charlotte Gordon, author

27:10

of Romantic Outlaws, The

27:13

Extraordinary Lives of Mary Wollstonecraft

27:16

and Mary Shelley. The voice actors

27:18

you heard throughout this episode are Jessica

27:20

Gillick and David Miller. This

27:23

episode was produced by Corinne Wallace.

27:25

It was sound designed by Brian Flood and

27:28

story edited by Jim O'Grady. Our

27:30

senior producer is Ben Dixtein. History

27:32

This Week is also produced by Julia Press, Chloe

27:35

Weiner, and me, Sally Helm. Our

27:37

associate producer is Emma Fredricks. Our

27:40

supervising producer is Mckamey Lynn, and

27:42

our executive producer is Jesse Katz.

27:44

Don't forget to subscribe, rate,

27:46

and review History This Week wherever you get your podcasts,

27:49

and we'll see you next week.

27:53

Hey, if you are in crisis, please

27:56

contact the 988 Suicide

27:58

and Crisis Lifeline. by calling 988 or

28:01

go to 988lifeline.org.

28:06

Copyright 2023 A&E Television

28:08

Networks LLC. All rights reserved.

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