0:00

History That Doesn't Suck is a bi-weekly

0:02

podcast delivering a legit, seriously-researched, hard-hitting survey

0:04

of American history through entertaining stories. If

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you'd like to support HGDS or

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enjoy bonus content, please consider giving

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at patreon.com/History That Doesn't Suck. Hello,

0:36

my friends, and welcome to an

0:38

epilogue of History That Doesn't Suck. I'm

0:40

your professor, Greg Jackson, joined as always

0:42

by Kelsey Dines. Hey, y'all. And

0:45

today it is time to wrap up World

0:47

War I. Yes, it is. After

0:49

almost a year. Yes, after, yeah, pretty

0:51

much a calendar year. But of course, Happy

0:54

New Year. Yes. It is when this comes out, at

0:57

least it is January 1st. January 1st. Because.

0:59

Especially 2024. We release every other

1:01

week, no matter what. So

1:05

Happy New Year or whenever you listen to this. Yes.

1:08

So first of all, a little bit of

1:10

business, though, before we conclude. Yes,

1:12

get into concluding World War I.

1:14

A reminder that as

1:17

we've fallen into the tradition of

1:19

doing, we will start the new

1:21

year with a few second edition

1:23

episodes of earlier episodes will continue

1:26

marching through the revolution. So through

1:28

January and into February, you can

1:30

expect just a few of those.

1:32

So we will be back on our

1:35

regular story driven

1:37

history in a chronological fashion

1:39

of the United States on

1:41

February 26th. Yes. Do

1:43

enjoy those. I love revisiting. I

1:46

like the remasters. The second editions are a

1:48

lot of fun. So I

1:50

know you haven't heard it yet because I haven't even

1:52

recorded it as we're having this conversation. I'm gonna record

1:54

it later today. I am so

1:57

thrilled with how Washington's

1:59

crossing Bella has. I've

2:01

been excited for that one. Yeah. I

2:04

like to listen to the older audio and then

2:06

the new one and try and figure out where the new stuff that

2:08

could happen. Well, per usual,

2:10

of course, the nuts and bolts. I

2:13

mean, the history is the history. Yeah. This

2:16

was one in particular where as I was working through

2:18

it, I went, oh, I have learned my craft. Okay.

2:21

Let's reword here and reword there. And

2:23

just so many, as I

2:25

keep finding so many places where I didn't see

2:27

how I could fit details that now I do

2:29

see how I can fit. Yeah. I

2:32

had a little more practice. Oh yeah. So

2:34

now it's just packed all the more. I

2:36

mean, who doesn't need to know exactly how

2:38

many casks of rum the Hessians had and

2:40

didn't drink at Trenton. But I digress. Let's

2:43

not get into that. Let's talk about World War

2:45

I. Let's do it. Okay. Oh,

2:47

and yeah, we've got nothing to

2:49

note from listeners this

2:52

time around. So yeah. Diving

2:54

in then. Muzarr

2:57

Gon. We need to get through Muzarr

2:59

Gon. We need to talk about this armistice and

3:01

of course the Treaty of Versailles. Some pretty heavy

3:03

episodes. Yeah. They were some pretty

3:05

heavy ones. So Muzarr Gon. Do it. Kelsey,

3:08

you were mentioning before and I always appreciate some of

3:10

the things that you bring up. You're

3:12

a well-educated person. You better

3:15

be. You're my former student. So

3:17

I'm responsible and part of the art. True. If

3:19

I'm not, it's your fault. But I love

3:21

that you help rescue me from PhD world

3:24

a bit where, you know, as you

3:27

read through the scripts or listen through, I like

3:29

knowing the things that either you kind of pause

3:32

on or you don't need a second pass because

3:34

it tells me, okay, that's either it needs more

3:36

now or epilogue. Yeah. Let's

3:39

discuss it. So pulling

3:41

from that, you mentioned the 100 Days Offensive. So

3:44

let's go ahead and situate that. The

3:46

100 Days Offensive, to remind everybody, that

3:49

was a enormous multi-pronged

3:53

attack. That

3:55

was all of the allies. They're hitting

3:57

the Germans simultaneously. So... Always

4:01

happy to have an excuse to use my French as

4:04

I quoted, Félle des Nantes-Fors, tous le

4:06

monde à la bataille, everyone to battle.

4:08

So it's the British, it's the French,

4:10

it's the Americans. I

4:12

tried to mention the 100 Days of Fence as much

4:14

as I could, while of

4:17

course maintaining the fact that this

4:19

is a American history podcast.

4:21

A single part of, yes.

4:24

So I am genuinely very

4:26

happy with the overall coverage that we

4:28

managed to give the Great War. It

4:31

was great having Deputy Provost Kat

4:33

Brown come on and talk Russia with me.

4:35

Yeah. But that

4:38

said, there are plenty

4:41

of significant battles that the British

4:43

are engaged in, the French that

4:46

I either mentioned the name in these

4:48

episodes, or we did simply blow past

4:51

them because in the American

4:53

story, it's the Musagone. So it's a

4:55

piece, right? There's the big 100 Days

4:57

offensive and the Musagone is just a piece.

5:01

So many ways we can go from here. Let's talk politics

5:03

for a sec. Oh, boy. Yes. Not

5:07

literal politics, but just

5:09

the politics of the

5:11

alliance. So

5:13

it's worth recalling

5:16

that Félle des Nantes-Fors did not

5:18

want the Americans to carry out

5:20

the attack at Sainte-Mielle. And that

5:22

was, I'm sure you remember, Kelsey. Yeah,

5:24

I do. There was nearly a

5:26

fist throw. Oh,

5:29

blackjack's clearly not a guy you want to piss off. But

5:32

the attack went forward. They made their compromise. The

5:35

Americans go to the Musagone. But let's again remember

5:37

that they are a part of

5:39

this big 100 Days offensive.

5:41

And we even had the French 4th

5:43

Army fighting directly on the American left.

5:46

So all that said, let's

5:48

recollect that French Prime

5:50

Minister Georges Clémenceau and our Allied

5:52

Supreme Commander, Félle de Nantes-Fors, both

5:54

of them, but especially

5:57

Clémenceau, the tiger. The tiger.

6:00

Letiigre. He is,

6:02

felt like a little bit much

6:04

actually uses French, you know, nickname. Yeah. Thought

6:07

we translate the English the tiger. The

6:09

tiger. I do like Letiigre. Yeah, it

6:11

carries. But he does

6:14

not like blackjack. At this point,

6:16

he is convinced blackjack sucks that

6:18

the American forces are being basically

6:21

poorly managed, poorly handled. I

6:23

find it so ironic that at the same

6:25

time, we've got Philippe Petain, who's saying, Oh,

6:27

yeah, you're gonna make it nowhere blackjack. This

6:29

is you'll be lucky, you know, if

6:32

by Christmas, you can start scratching through

6:34

the first line of the multi

6:37

layered defenses here. So we've got

6:39

the Hindenburg line, Hindenburg line itself

6:41

actually has defenses in front of

6:43

it. You know, this is like,

6:46

it's a very large

6:50

defensive structure. Well, one of I don't

6:52

remember which source I read it in,

6:54

but one historian compared it to a

6:56

honeycomb, right? Like just layer after layer.

6:58

Well, you've been in this for years,

7:00

and not a lot of movement, right?

7:02

So what do you do? You build

7:04

more trenches. Yes. And the Germans, especially

7:07

this was their last line of resort

7:09

that they're thinking. So this Hindenburg line

7:11

was like, Yeah, this thing breaks were

7:13

screwed. That's where they threw all of

7:15

their manpower, every fence.

7:17

Yes. So so here we are

7:19

that they're at their

7:22

last. But that means yeah, they built this thing up.

7:24

This is who it is

7:26

intense what they've got. And of course, let's

7:28

also remember the ground, right? This is, as

7:32

was one American journal put it, I mentioned

7:34

it in what episode 142. This was months

7:36

ago now. So I don't remember which

7:39

which general but that it was

7:41

like a natural fortress. Like basically,

7:43

God had come down and made

7:45

a fortress. And the Germans

7:48

are holding it now. They're like, this is our

7:50

Yes. Plus machine

7:52

guns. So it's

7:54

hard fighting. You've got picked on who's

7:56

telling blackjack. Yeah. Good

7:58

luck. You can't do anything. There's no Meanwhile,

8:01

there's the tiger who's, you know,

8:03

like, these Americans, they suck, they should

8:05

be doing more. All the while,

8:07

Blackjack saying, my men are getting slaughtered and that's

8:09

how your men are progressing elsewhere. Anyhow,

8:12

so that's the politics. So it's adding

8:14

to the, that ongoing friction

8:16

that we caught through the entire coverage of

8:18

the war, going all the way back to

8:20

when Blackjack and the American Expeditionary Force first

8:22

arrived in France in 1917. And

8:26

there the Allies, you know, the French, the Brits

8:28

are both like, great, just throw your boys into

8:30

our lines. We'll train them quicker.

8:32

We'll get them on the front. And

8:34

Blackjack struggling with, and I'm very intentional

8:36

wanting to mention this right now, struggling

8:39

against that in part because

8:41

one, he does question, will they care

8:44

about his men's lives, right? Yeah, it doesn't feel

8:46

like they're actually going to do anything

8:48

to save them. They're just going to use them

8:51

to throw at the Germans. Exactly. So

8:53

he's not going to let his doughboys be cannon fodder.

8:55

I'm sure the French and British would frame that differently,

8:57

but that's a genuine risk, right? Yeah,

9:00

that was his worry. So, and

9:02

another worry is for all the

9:04

blood and treasure America is about to spend in

9:06

war to use that, that's a very common phrase.

9:09

He wants to make sure that, frankly, America

9:12

gets credit for that. So we

9:15

don't want to put in all this effort and all

9:17

these lives to just kind of be pushed aside. Precisely.

9:21

So to make sure that that is not

9:23

the case, that that's all part of why

9:25

he's so adamant that no, there will be

9:27

an American army. So he keeps building, right?

9:29

We've got corps and divisions and all the

9:32

structures, all the structures, building

9:34

up slowly until finally we've

9:36

got an army that happens

9:38

in Samiel and then at

9:40

Muse Argonne, the American First Army

9:42

continues on and even organizes the American Second.

9:45

So this is really like the culmination of

9:48

what he's been working for the whole time.

9:51

And he manages to do it without punching failed non-ful.

9:53

She was a great accomplishment. It

9:55

probably was. Oh no, 100% it was. Yeah,

10:00

I'm... I don't know if I would have had so

10:02

much restraint. I deliver that with some sarcasm, but that

10:04

is a 100% compliment. And

10:07

you know, it's one of the things I do love... I

10:10

love about history. It's one of the things I enjoy bringing

10:12

into the story. And of course,

10:14

I'm so grateful to Riley, to Arby,

10:16

Will, who all helped me

10:19

tear through various sources. I

10:22

can think of at least

10:24

one or two specific encounters

10:27

between Félgne-Fosche and Blackjack that

10:29

Will dug them up. He's

10:31

the one who tore through the

10:34

memoirs and journals and whatnot

10:37

and found Blackjack's personal

10:39

account. Ah, here's where they

10:41

nearly went at it. Fantastic. Because it was

10:44

a great, you know, firsthand account. But...

10:47

It's one of the times that you can actually get into the head

10:49

of somebody that you're talking about

10:51

and know what they're feeling because they talked about

10:53

what they were feeling. And this is what makes

10:56

history come to life. This is when it stops

10:58

being names and dates. You

11:00

realize, here's this massive, bloody,

11:02

awful, deadly war

11:04

raging. And you've got

11:07

these generals who care deeply about all of

11:09

that. I was

11:11

struck very much reading

11:14

about Blackjack sobbing

11:17

in the back of his car, more

11:19

or less. Maybe praise isn't the

11:21

right word. I understand the man was

11:23

Christian in his... I

11:26

don't remember his precise denomination,

11:28

but he probably wouldn't consider himself to pray

11:30

to his wife like in a... Anyhow,

11:34

but he's talking to her, right? He's talking to his

11:36

deceased wife. Which I think is a fairly common thing

11:38

to do. Yes, yes, it is. But,

11:40

you know, so here he is sobbing in

11:43

the back of his car, talking to his

11:45

deceased wife about all these

11:47

doughboys that are dying. He's wracked

11:49

with fear, concern, right? The

11:52

things to show you, this guy's human. Or

11:55

all the hardcore facade that

11:57

he puts on for the doughboys as a general.

14:00

getting shot at. Yeah. And probably

14:03

being told certain things from

14:06

his leadership that makes

14:08

him feel like, well, we're in

14:11

the right here. And let's recollect

14:13

that to go ahead and jump

14:15

to the Treaty of Versailles. That

14:17

was one of the points that

14:19

the German delegates actually made as they

14:22

were confronted with these very

14:24

harsh terms. And they're feeling this bait and

14:26

switch. They came to the table on Woodrow

14:28

Wilson's terms and now they're looking

14:31

just going, these are not the 14

14:33

points. No, this is very different. But yeah,

14:36

we'll table that for the most

14:38

part. But the thing I want

14:40

to point to is the count

14:43

fires back that our people were

14:45

convinced we felt that we

14:47

were fighting a defensive war. Again,

14:50

I look at the evidence and say,

14:52

well, that's quite that way. But that's

14:54

what they'd been told. Precisely. Yep. They

14:56

didn't really know it otherwise. Anyhow,

14:58

the humanity of the soldiers, I'm glad we were

15:01

able to get to that in 1914 and it's

15:03

something to keep in mind throughout all

15:06

of this. Particularly,

15:09

as we do seek to understand the

15:11

armistice and the treaty, I

15:13

do want to go down that road. But first, there are

15:16

just two other things I want to mention specifically about Musargon,

15:18

and then we'll get to those. So one

15:21

is, I want to talk about

15:23

Blanc Montreux, but I could

15:25

not figure out a way to work it into the story.

15:27

I tried to work this into my coverage of Musargon,

15:30

but it was so it

15:32

was such a click out.

15:34

There was just no seamless way. So here we are.

15:38

This ridge, it's on the left, it's

15:40

under the French 4th Army. Now, as

15:43

I was able to work into the Musargon a little

15:45

bit, we know that

15:48

the Harlem Rattlers are fighting over there. Also,

15:51

we have some other Americans that are fighting over there under

15:54

the command of Major General John

15:56

Lejeune. I think I'm saying

15:58

Lejeune correctly there. Marines,

16:01

feel free to let me

16:03

know. I'll double check it before I say his name

16:05

in the next episode. I know I checked it in

16:07

previous episodes. I heard

16:10

different pronunciations among Marines, however,

16:13

in some conversations.

16:16

Beauty of language. Yes.

16:18

So that's...anyhow, so

16:21

General Lejeune, he's such

16:23

an incredible figure. He was at

16:25

Bellowood. He's now the commander of

16:28

the U.S. 2nd Division, but he's fighting under the

16:30

French. So he

16:32

has this incredible victory. Some

16:35

historians call this the

16:37

most brilliant tactical victory in the whole

16:39

war. And he's totally left out of

16:41

the narrative, though. That's true. I've never

16:44

heard of him. Well,

16:46

so he... So I'm excited. Well, I'll tell

16:48

you, every Marine listening right now is beyond

16:50

excited because he later becomes the 13th Commandant.

16:54

Commandant's the title of your...basically

16:56

the leader of the Marines, right?

16:58

The very top. So

17:01

in many ways, he even...well, he basically

17:03

saves the Marines as a branch,

17:05

keeping it in existence. So he becomes

17:07

Commandant just after World War I and

17:10

really is the preserver of the Marines.

17:13

But before he does that, why does he

17:15

become the Commandant? Because he's a badass in World

17:17

War I, right? Bellowood. And

17:20

now to this Blanc-Mont-Brige,

17:22

he's forgotten for two

17:24

reasons. One, again, he's fighting under the French,

17:26

but two, he does everything

17:28

Blackjack doesn't want him to do. So as

17:31

we've mentioned in the

17:33

episodes, Blackjack is a believer in

17:36

the rifle. He believes in the traditional

17:40

old-school way of fighting. The Brits and the

17:42

French are both saying, dude, no. Well,

17:44

you've got to move on a little bit.

17:46

It's trench warfare and it's artillery. Yeah. No,

17:48

we tried that early on. It leads to

17:50

a slaughter. It didn't work. Blackjack's a stubborn

17:52

man. So he's still pushing, you know, people...you

17:54

got to get out of the trench, you've

17:57

got to advance. It's the riflemen that win

17:59

the day. Well, Lejeune

18:01

is over there with the French going, yeah,

18:03

artillery is pretty awesome. Let's

18:06

rely on artillery. He

18:08

crushes it. So not only is he not

18:10

with the main American army, but the

18:12

last thing Blackjack really wanted to do, I suppose,

18:14

is toot the horn

18:16

of- Of somebody that just did everything he

18:18

didn't want. Not just somebody

18:21

who didn't do what he wanted, but

18:23

a Marine who didn't do

18:25

what he wanted. You've even got the

18:28

separate branches conflict. Yeah,

18:30

okay. So we had that.

18:32

The other thing I want to mention, and my

18:34

gratitude to David, he's a patron of HTTPS, and

18:37

he's a Native American. He

18:40

gave me more details after I talked about

18:43

the code talkers of World War I, which-

18:45

Yeah, I didn't realize that there were code

18:47

talkers in World War I. I hear about

18:49

the ones in World War II- Totally. As

18:52

if it's this new idea, and they were

18:54

the first ones, they came up with

18:56

it for World War II, but obviously that's

18:58

not entirely accurate. No, and I'm sure we

19:00

would have talked about it more had it

19:02

caught on earlier in the war, but it

19:04

happened so late in the game. Yeah. And

19:09

you can see World War I actually paving the path

19:11

for World War II, both in the

19:14

code talkers, but also we had Colonel

19:16

Billy Mitchell with the US Air Service

19:18

talking about this crazy idea that

19:21

maybe we could have troops with parachutes jump

19:23

out of planes, right? The paratroopers. Now

19:26

it didn't happen, but all

19:28

these new approaches

19:30

that this industrialized,

19:32

technologically advanced 20th

19:34

century, well,

19:37

basically the germ for all these things, they

19:39

are there. We've got the basic

19:41

tech. Of course, technology will advance more by

19:44

the time it gets to World War II. But

19:46

this is kind of where they start building off

19:49

of a lot of these things. Exactly, exactly. So

19:51

David gave me greater statistics and just a bigger

19:53

view of Native

19:56

Americans fighting in World War I. So I

19:58

wanna share a little bit of that. did not

20:00

know that there were 10,000 Native

20:02

Americans volunteering in the Red Cross. There

20:05

were 12,000 who volunteered. Let's again

20:07

emphasize that word volunteered, not drafted.

20:09

Yeah, volunteered. Volunteered. 12,000

20:12

volunteered as soldiers. And

20:15

I also was not aware he mentioned that the

20:18

traditions of indigenous

20:21

peoples in battle, that they've

20:23

kept that going. Wow. So,

20:25

even in World War I, World War II, I

20:27

got the impression still to today, I'll

20:29

be a little bit vague there just to make sure

20:31

I don't misrepresent what David's saying. Yeah.

20:35

But like counting coups, stealing horses, in the midst

20:37

of battle, these are things that they still try

20:39

to do. And we'll, I'm sure

20:41

get to this in World War II, but Joe

20:44

Medicine Crow managed to complete

20:46

all of the tasks in

20:49

battle in World War II. So, anyhow,

20:51

that will be a story for a later day. But, you

20:54

know, just a broader picture across

20:57

the history of the world, you

20:59

often have marginalized groups

21:01

participating in a war in a

21:04

way to demonstrate their valor, their

21:06

humanity, their contribution to the nation,

21:08

or whatever it may be. And

21:11

that is, there's no exception to that in

21:13

US history. When we think about the

21:16

courage of black troops in the Civil War, the

21:18

courage of black troops we've heard about here in

21:20

World War I. Right? Same

21:23

thing here with native troops. So,

21:25

I just sometimes

21:28

wonder if listeners, you know, think

21:30

or wonder like, oh, why is there always

21:32

like an emphasis on the extreme valor of

21:34

troops from minority groups? You're

21:36

going to find that in the history of

21:38

pretty much every nation. This is

21:40

the moment where many of them are going, I'm

21:43

going to prove. I'm going to show you. Yeah,

21:45

I won't only need, I will exceed. Anyhow.

21:47

So, I want to say thank you to

21:50

David. Let's take a quick break

21:52

and time for some Armistice, good

21:54

boy. Hey,

22:01

HTDS fans, Professor Greg Jackson here. Your voices

22:03

have been heard and we've added more dates

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and cities to the history that doesn't suck

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country and we can't get everywhere, but

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I'm thrilled to have new stocks in

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the Chicago area, Indianapolis, Louisville, Norfolk and

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Ashland, Virginia, and Washington, D.C., to name

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a few. And that's just through March.

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So come out and let me tell

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22:24

States' first 100 years from the founding

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musicians. So please go

22:35

to htbspodcast.com/tour for dates and

22:37

ticket info. That's

22:39

htbspodcast.com/tour. Thanks for all the

22:41

enthusiasm. I hope to see

22:44

as many of you out

22:46

there as I can. Well,

23:13

we're back. We're back. Yes.

23:15

Let's talk armistice. Let's talk

23:17

armistice. So I think,

23:19

again, broad strokes, big picture things that

23:21

we want to take away crucial

23:24

to all of this is knowing that

23:26

the armistice is not the official end.

23:29

Yes. Right. Like, I always

23:31

kind of had that thought that, oh, the armistice, this is

23:33

really the end of it. But it's

23:35

kind of just a limbo period.

23:37

You have no idea. Yeah. If it's

23:40

the end, I try to be very

23:42

careful in my wording to always say

23:44

the silencing of the guns. Yeah. Things

23:46

like that. Because it is

23:48

not the end of a war. For

23:50

instance, technically, North and South Korea are

23:52

still a war. There's an armistice. But

23:55

the end of the war, there's never a

23:57

treaty. Yeah. So that's why we've got the

23:59

the needle tri zone between North and South

24:02

Korea. I've actually been there once

24:04

when I was really young. I

24:06

got to visit South Korea and I

24:09

mean it's quite extraordinary to see the

24:12

barbed wire that I mean,

24:14

yeah, yeah, that is a defended line

24:16

that is not not

24:18

a border like what you'd see if you were visiting

24:22

Canada or Mexico. It's

24:25

intense. Yeah. So, you know,

24:27

that's going to help us understand when we get

24:29

to the Treaty of Versailles what, you know,

24:31

the blade that dangles over the

24:33

Germans if they don't

24:35

sign the treaty. Yeah. As I

24:38

mentioned in again, in the Christmas

24:40

episode for World War One, the

24:43

troops, they're not going home for

24:45

Christmas. Nope, they're still there. They have

24:47

to be vigilant and prepared in the event

24:50

that the Germans are not honoring the

24:52

armistice. And if the treaty goes south, the last

24:54

thing you want to do is have

24:56

sent all your troops home and then have to

24:59

bring them all back precisely. Yep. Okay.

25:01

So this is a, it's

25:04

a cease to the fire. It's a

25:06

ceasefire. It's a ceasefire. Trying to say that as awkward as

25:08

I can. So it's a ceasefire. And

25:11

that's that for now. Another

25:13

crucial piece is understanding

25:15

the terms upon which the Germans

25:18

were willing to come to the table. So

25:20

Woodrow Wilson's 14 points. French,

25:23

the British, yeah, they're thinking, oh,

25:26

this idealist American, all self-important,

25:29

thinks he's got it all figured out.

25:31

Yeah. And you know how those history

25:33

professors are. So, you

25:35

know, he's, I mean,

25:37

joking aside, while I always enjoy

25:39

ridding my own profession. He's

25:45

a thinker, right? He is a philosopher. So

25:47

it's no surprise that he, he's not just

25:49

going to say, okay, war is over, but

25:51

he's sitting there trying to think through how

25:53

can we not have this happen again? Exactly.

25:56

And regardless of how right or wrong he is.

25:58

Yeah, that's the that's the goal. that

26:00

he has. So yeah, that's the whole deal with his

26:02

14 points. He genuinely

26:05

believes deep in his bones if these

26:07

14 points are adhered to, this

26:11

is going to prevent war from ever occurring again. And

26:14

yeah, they are kinder, they are softer to

26:16

Germany than what France or Britain wanna do

26:18

who they see Germany as

26:20

nothing but the aggressor. Just the enemy.

26:22

Who has put millions

26:26

of their sons, of their husbands, their husbands, uncles, nephews,

26:28

you name it right in the ground. This is a

26:30

much more personal thing for them. It's

26:33

been four years of this. And

26:36

I think it's easy for them to kind of

26:38

dismiss Wilson and say, well, you have no

26:40

idea what this is. Even as you say

26:42

that, Kelsey, as we say that, I

26:46

just don't know if any of us

26:48

today can completely grasp, the

26:52

resentment that would boil in the

26:54

hearts of people some

26:58

of these allied leaders. And

27:00

we've watched so many people

27:02

die because of it. We see

27:04

that in, well, in train

27:07

carriage 2419B, as

27:10

they meet in the Compiègne Forest, my

27:13

mind goes to those final hours

27:16

as they're working in the

27:19

early dark hours of

27:21

November 11th itself. And the

27:24

Germans say that dismantling their navy and

27:27

so forth, as they're seeing this, that it's not fair and

27:30

the British lose it, right? Not

27:33

fair, not fair. Yeah. And

27:35

are just screaming at them about all their

27:37

ships that had been sunk. And yeah,

27:41

this is an emotional. They're all

27:43

very emotionally invested. I

27:47

think it's just a heartbreaking tale. I

27:50

am able to simultaneously

27:53

understand, intellectually

27:55

at least. I

27:57

think of Thelma Foch seated in that

27:59

train. train car. It's not like these

28:03

four Germans have

28:05

personally carried out this work of death,

28:07

but they personified Germany for him in

28:09

this moment, right? Yeah.

28:11

Well, they're representing Germany. Exactly.

28:13

So he's looking at Matthias

28:15

Erzberger, who, you know, this

28:17

very level headed German politician,

28:21

and he's not seeing that level headed

28:23

politician, he's just seen La

28:25

Boche. Right. We've

28:27

used that word enough. Yeah. I

28:30

trust everyone knows that one at this point after

28:32

this last year of episodes. Yeah,

28:35

he just sees La Boche and he

28:37

is ready to eviscerate them. Yeah, he's

28:39

angry. Yes, as much on paper as

28:41

he can just as he's tried to

28:43

on the battlefield. My

28:46

heart breaks for Erzberger. I mean,

28:48

thinking about what's it like to

28:50

sit down to negotiate, to then hear

28:52

that your government has ceased to exist.

28:55

Do you still negotiate? Do you still represent the

28:57

German people? Yeah. What do

28:59

you do in that situation? And

29:01

of course, ultimately for him

29:03

to be murdered a

29:06

few years later. He

29:08

did his best for journey. And

29:11

you know that... He could only do so

29:13

much. There was no real

29:15

negotiating happening. No. I mean, it was

29:17

all... It was. It was the

29:19

expression putting lipstick on a pig. Yeah. No

29:24

big movement was going to

29:26

happen. But that unfortunately is...

29:28

That's a parallel you can take right

29:30

into your own

29:33

life. I have no interest in commenting on any particular

29:35

anything. I'm not trying to do that. But

29:38

history is full of

29:40

examples of the level-headed

29:42

trying to do right, working

29:45

within the limitations of

29:47

a situation while the

29:49

citizenry either simply angry

29:51

or not

29:54

understanding the full context. Maybe

29:56

not even their own fault. I mean, think about

29:59

the things that... German government's been telling them

30:01

for years to set them up

30:03

to have the perceptions that they did. As

30:06

far as the Germans knew, they were winning the

30:08

war. I mean, they're holding territory in France. Yeah,

30:11

they didn't realize it was so dire for

30:14

them. Exactly.

30:17

But it's crucial to keep in

30:19

mind that this felt like a

30:21

bait and switch for them. It

30:23

did. Again, it's... Because

30:25

in many ways it was. I think understanding the end of World

30:27

War I, it's crucial to understand how the Germans kind of... Well,

30:31

they are not dealt with as they

30:33

expected to be dealt with. That

30:36

they feel this bait and switch and

30:39

none of this justifies the

30:43

horrific aggression of

30:45

Germany. No. But

30:47

it also sets up the

30:50

bad terms that we ultimately

30:52

end up wrapping this war

30:55

up. Yeah, it does. Too many prepositions there.

30:57

It sets up the bad terms upon which this

31:00

war wraps. Yeah. Boom.

31:04

There we go. English teachers, you're welcome. They

31:07

were twitching a little bit. That's

31:09

right. That's right. Let's

31:21

just go ahead and push right on the end of Versailles.

31:23

I think that we really did do an

31:25

excellent job covering the armistice itself. There isn't much

31:27

more to say there. Going

31:31

into Versailles itself and

31:33

just continuing that same thought process. I

31:37

think about the accounts comment

31:39

after he's read the 413 page. That

31:42

is a really long document.

31:45

Yeah. Right? And

31:47

he says, well, they could have just summed it up by

31:49

saying Germany ceases to exist. Yeah.

31:53

So again, I understand the impulse,

31:56

but I got to give it to Woodrow Wilson. I

31:59

think he was thinking. Thank you more. I touched on

32:01

this in the wrap up of 147. I want to

32:03

really emphasize it here though. My

32:06

mind goes back and I very

32:08

purposely, when I did the episode on the

32:10

causes of World War I, it was with

32:13

great intention that I start

32:15

that episode early on. I

32:18

take us to the

32:20

negotiation table at Vienna

32:22

in 1815 with Calleron

32:24

representing France. And

32:26

here France has been the aggressor. It was Napoleonic

32:28

France that has just waltzed all

32:30

over Europe, slaughtered, brought war

32:33

and devastation to the continent. And

32:36

now here's Tally Rall, meant to be

32:38

a mirror observer and

32:40

slick, smooth operator that he is.

32:44

By the time he's done, he's represented for France and

32:46

it's got a full voice and all that. But

32:49

one of the most important and

32:51

crucial things that happened at

32:54

Vienna, as they set up this concert, as they

32:56

called it, is that

32:58

they treated France not

33:00

as an entity to be punished

33:02

into oblivion, but as a neighbor.

33:06

Yeah, a bad neighbor of late. Neighbor that

33:09

probably had some issues. Yet

33:11

nonetheless, a neighbor who's not going

33:14

to disappear and they need to mend fences.

33:17

So they did not deliver

33:19

a crushing blow to France. And

33:22

while I understand that impulse at the

33:25

Paris Peace Conference that ends World War I

33:28

more than a century later in

33:30

1919, it's

33:32

my perception that they just, they won 80.

33:34

They went the exact opposite way. Instead,

33:36

they said, we are going to absolutely. Going

33:39

to destroy you. Yes.

33:42

Now, you know, it's, to give

33:44

a little more context, you know, I do understand,

33:46

Klimol, so he's not just

33:49

about punishing. I mean, there's a

33:51

part of that. Let's not forget it. I

33:53

think they all kind of felt that. And I'm not

33:55

faulting them for it. No, I would have done the

33:57

exact same thing. And not that they, again, they aren't

33:59

with you. out sin themselves. But

34:02

yeah, Germany carries the water in

34:04

my mind. As I look at all

34:07

the causes, yeah, you know,

34:11

France and Britain, maybe they should have taken a

34:13

swing. It's such a hard line. Yeah, but you

34:16

started the bar fight. France and Britain should have

34:18

walked away. Things they could have

34:20

done to avoid it. They were a little eager to

34:22

jump in, but yeah,

34:25

Germany's one that really kind of kicked that

34:27

off. But Clivenceau is

34:29

actually coming at this from a

34:31

strategic standpoint. It's not just about

34:33

crushing Germany. We need to remember

34:35

the imbalance in population, that

34:37

there are so fewer French than

34:39

there are Germans. And

34:42

that's all part of why

34:44

France brought hundreds of

34:46

thousands, about a half a million

34:48

colonial subjects to

34:51

France to fight the Germans. So

34:54

in his mind, the key

34:56

thing that is

34:58

to defame Germany,

35:00

to neuter it, declot it.

35:03

Make sure that can't happen again. Yes, and

35:05

the only way to do that, that

35:07

requires making them pay for the war

35:09

so they know that pain. It requires

35:12

cutting their military down to a little

35:14

more than a defensive force. So here's

35:17

Imperial Germany, millions of

35:19

soldiers. And with

35:21

the Versailles Treaty now says, your army

35:24

is about to drop to less than 10%. Yeah,

35:26

what do all those guys do now? Yeah,

35:28

they go home to a broken economy. So

35:32

this is also where we're

35:36

walking into how the Treaty of Versailles

35:38

contributes. And I do

35:40

think that it's important to be a careful historian

35:42

and not simply say, look, Treaty of Versailles, here

35:45

are all the problems that create World

35:47

War II. But it definitely plays a

35:49

part in that. 100% does.

35:51

Yes, it's a massive factor.

35:55

I really did like Margaret Macmillan's

35:57

points in her book Paris, 19th.

36:00

2019 that, you know, their

36:02

successors pay me choices.

36:05

So yes, we shouldn't

36:07

just look at the Versailles Treaty and

36:10

blame everything as though the dominoes

36:12

had to fall, but the domino

36:15

would not. Yeah, it was a

36:17

big part of that. It

36:20

set up the hyper and it's interesting. We'll get

36:23

into this later. It's

36:25

not US history directly, but it ends up

36:27

being US history. It definitely influences. So

36:30

it's important to talk about it. Well, we'll

36:32

talk about how the Nazi regime, how

36:35

this ultra nationalism

36:37

that is Nazism, fascism,

36:40

it has an immense uptick

36:42

right after World War I,

36:45

in the midst of communists on the

36:48

far left, as we know, trying to set

36:50

up a Soviet state in Germany that fails,

36:52

we get the Weimar Republic. But

36:55

then on the far right, we've got these ultra nationalists

36:58

and their numbers are

37:00

skyrocketing amidst the

37:02

hyperinflation created by these terms

37:05

because the Weimar Republic is going to respond by saying,

37:07

okay, we got to pay this debt. Oh, we're just

37:09

going to print the money. There's no other way to

37:11

do this. Hyperinflation

37:14

kicks off fascism in Germany. The

37:17

Dawes plan, we'll get to this later,

37:19

but that's Vice President, US Vice President

37:21

Dawes. He's a former banker. He comes

37:23

up with essentially a plan that stabilizes

37:25

Germany. That happens. Boom,

37:28

Nazism starts to just

37:30

wither and die on the vine. And

37:33

it does. It's broken for the

37:35

most part. It's this more fringe party.

37:38

And then the Great Depression hits and boom, it's

37:40

skyrocketing. So again, those

37:42

are all, the details are to come,

37:45

but you can see

37:47

how the economic scenario

37:50

created by the Versailles Treaty, it's

37:52

contributing to... Well,

37:55

I think a lot of the Germans, as we kind of touched on

37:57

a little bit, a lot of the Germans view this as... because

38:00

they thought they were winning. So

38:02

they see it as a huge betrayal

38:05

by their government. Yeah, enormous. And

38:08

like, well, we could have won if you guys

38:10

hadn't given up, if you hadn't just... Ultimately,

38:14

they were wrong, but they

38:16

didn't know that. And there will be some revising

38:18

of history as well in the 1920s, in the

38:20

1930s, as they look back. And

38:24

it's within that context that Hitler is

38:27

going to start with all

38:29

of his atrocious claims, trying

38:32

to... Well, trying to, he clearly

38:34

succeeds in Germany and scapegoating the

38:36

Jewish people and

38:40

just all sorts of horrific lies that

38:43

allow him to continue to gain power.

38:46

But anyhow, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

38:48

We'll get there eventually. And yes, obviously,

38:51

again, I will cite

38:54

Professor Macmillan. That

38:56

is not what Clemenceau, what Woodrow

38:58

Wilson, what George intended to do.

39:01

No, none of them

39:03

could have foreseen that happening. But

39:05

it definitely contributed to that.

39:07

And it's these sorts of instances

39:09

where I contrast this

39:12

to the Congress of Vienna

39:14

and and the words of

39:17

Abraham Lincoln actually come to mind for me. With

39:20

mouths toward none, with charity for all.

39:22

When you go tooth for tooth, you do

39:25

that in... It

39:27

doesn't end well. It never does. You

39:29

have to go into it saying, I

39:31

get that I'm really angry at you

39:34

because of all this, but we have to find

39:37

a way to work together. How do we build

39:39

a better future? Yeah. Otherwise, it goes

39:42

another analogy. It's like a fishtail in a

39:44

car, right? Yeah. That

39:46

just keeps swinging and swinging. It

39:49

takes enormous strength to do what the

39:51

leaders of Europe did in Vienna in

39:53

1815. To

39:56

not pile all the blame. Yeah, to not pile the blame, to

39:58

not say, well, we're going to make a... We're just

40:00

gonna crush you. And again, I totally get the

40:02

strategic thought, the idea that we will neuter Germany

40:05

so that they can't. In

40:07

doing so. Yeah. Really,

40:10

Woodrow had it right on that

40:12

whole self-determination point, on allowing

40:14

nations to be themselves. And

40:18

of course, to bring this whole

40:20

circle, we should discuss Woodrow,

40:25

the idealist who in so many ways wouldn't

40:27

compromise, he would readily compromise on that

40:30

and many other points. Again,

40:33

trying to get into his head, right? It's

40:35

easy to point out where Woodrow became a

40:38

hypocrite. Yeah, and fell short. We

40:40

can do that all day long with- Of course, but

40:42

we could do that with everyone. Yes,

40:46

we could do that with any villain

40:48

hero, doesn't matter, right? It's

40:50

easy to do. To

40:53

understand whether or not we agree

40:55

or condone, is

40:58

to grasp how deeply

41:00

he believed in the idea of the League of

41:02

Nations. And in his

41:04

mind, if he could just get that across the

41:06

finish line, we're golden. The League

41:08

of Nations is gonna fix everything. It's gonna

41:11

solve it. All the problems we fix. We'll

41:13

all hold hands and sing kumbaya. So

41:15

it's okay, I can compromise on these other

41:17

issues, but I can't do is compromise on

41:19

the league. Which he then,

41:21

as we saw stubbornly, would not. He

41:24

compromised in Paris to get the league,

41:26

but he wouldn't compromise in the United

41:28

States to get the

41:30

Senate to approve the treaty. Which as

41:33

I just had this discussion with my students

41:35

this last week, as I'm teaching my Middle

41:38

East class and we were talking through during

41:40

the Iran nuclear

41:42

agreement under the Obama administration and discussed

41:44

the difference between binding

41:47

treaties versus executive orders

41:50

and so forth. Woodrow

41:53

Wilson's looking for a binding treaty. The

41:55

president, yes, oversees our

41:58

foreign policy and. Secretary

42:00

of State assists with that, but per the

42:02

Constitution, it's the Senate that approves the treaty.

42:04

Yeah. So if you can't

42:06

get... If you can't get them on board with it, it

42:09

doesn't matter. No matter. Yep. It's

42:12

toast. And as we know, he didn't.

42:14

The irony. Oh, it's so ironic. It's super

42:16

ironic. It's the only thing he wouldn't compromise on

42:18

and yet... Yep. So he gets his

42:20

Nobel Peace Prize for the idea and we get the

42:22

League of Nations. It's not like it doesn't exist, but...

42:24

No, but the United States is not a part of

42:26

it. It is not. It's

42:28

super, super is not a part of it.

42:32

I also think it's worth noting and

42:34

undoubtedly, it speaks

42:37

to just my own academic path

42:39

doing a minor field in the Middle East. I

42:44

did want to include Faisal and what

42:47

was happening in the former Ottoman territories,

42:50

but that wasn't just because there was a

42:52

connection in Paris. That Faisal was there and

42:54

I thought that was an interesting story to

42:56

tell. We're

42:59

laying deep, deep track

43:01

because of course, we will eventually, as we

43:03

continue with these episodes and we get into

43:06

the late 20th

43:08

century, we're going to see

43:10

the United States playing a larger

43:12

role in the Middle East and

43:15

understanding... I

43:17

don't have to lay that groundwork. Whenever

43:20

I teach my Middle East class, first, I

43:22

do kind of a crash course on Islam. Two

43:26

weeks of... No one's an expert, but... Understanding

43:29

the basics. I think you took one of those

43:32

classes from me. It was a lot more in

43:34

depth because it wasn't just the Middle East class.

43:36

Yes, yes. But... Yeah,

43:39

that's right. It was more specifically about

43:41

Islam. Wow. But

43:43

the Middle East one where it's much more history

43:46

and contemporary politics as opposed to getting into the

43:48

religious side of things. Yeah,

43:51

I do the crash course. Okay, cool.

43:53

Can you understand where people are coming from? Just some

43:55

context, some very broad context. And

43:57

then I jumped to World War I because...

44:00

I would argue, and I'm not unique

44:02

in this by any means, you

44:05

cannot understand the map of

44:07

the Middle East if you do not

44:09

understand the League of Nation mandates. So

44:13

we'll still even touch on that a

44:15

little bit in an upcoming episode once

44:17

we get through these next second editions,

44:21

as we'll see Iraq. I'll give a little hint

44:23

for where we're going to see Iraq get made

44:28

by the British. This

44:30

is just all crucial to understanding things

44:32

yet to come. So down

44:34

the road, you'll hear me say, as I said in

44:36

episode 147, right? Then

44:39

I'll make that reference. The

44:41

last thing I do not believe I

44:44

mentioned this in the episode, I always mention it when I teach

44:46

this stuff in class. Because again, I think

44:48

it's fascinating and it's worth

44:50

noting this contrast. So

44:54

we saw Faisal come and speak in Paris,

44:56

right? Trying to get an intonation, not going

44:58

to happen right then and there,

45:01

Woodrow Wilson was like, yeah, yeah. So would

45:03

you like one mandate or several for your

45:05

people? And there's Faisal still trying

45:07

to, ah, I'm going to try and negotiate and

45:09

navigate this. They weren't interested

45:11

in listening. Now, super not going to happen, but

45:15

when the mandate for Syria

45:18

and Lebanon, as it's called,

45:20

one mandate, when it is

45:22

created, the

45:24

people who are put in those boundaries, they

45:27

say, we don't want to be a

45:29

mandate. We want to be an independent nation. Okay, number one. Number

45:32

two, by any basic Middle East

45:35

history textbook will tell you this.

45:37

Yeah. I've

45:40

read this so many different times from different

45:42

historians. Number two,

45:45

if we have to be a mandate, we

45:48

want the United States to oversee us.

45:51

And I know that in modern day context,

45:53

you know, maybe a lot of us would

45:55

be like, wow, what? That seems odd.

45:58

But the Faisal, The

46:00

isolationists of the United States had no

46:02

history of being engaged

46:04

in meddling, for lack of

46:06

a better word. So

46:08

they saw of these great powers.

46:10

Who's going to be the least

46:12

annoying? Well, yeah. Who

46:15

seems to really live by their ideals of

46:17

all this. And as they looked at it,

46:19

it was America. So they

46:21

then said, if it can't be the Americans, we prefer

46:23

the... We'll go with the Brits. But

46:27

in the name of all that is good, if you

46:29

make us a mandate, if you make us

46:31

have someone look over us, do

46:33

not let it be the French. It

46:36

was the French. Of course. So the League

46:38

of Nations mandate goes to the French. And

46:40

then they later split the mandate. They split

46:43

Lebanon off of that mandate. They do all

46:45

sorts of different boundary changes. But they then...

46:48

The fact that you have a separate Syria and Lebanon,

46:50

two separate countries to this day, that

46:53

was the French who decided that they would be

46:55

different because Lebanon was intended to be a Christian

46:57

nation with Syria.

46:59

That was the French administrative mind. Lebanon

47:01

for the Christians and then Syria for the Muslims.

47:05

Yeah. All right. I think I've talked through all

47:07

the things. I think so. I'm going to shut up

47:09

now. I'm processing a

47:11

lot of things right now. Oh, no.

47:13

I mean, the idea is that we could all

47:15

smooth. All right. I

47:17

definitely just need to stop talking and let you

47:19

process. It's all good. It's just processing.

47:22

Sure, sure. Okay. Well, hey, thank you as

47:24

always for joining me. I'm happy to be

47:26

here. I'm happy to have you here. It's

47:28

a good match. Yeah. And I'm

47:30

looking forward to... Looking forward to some second editions. So, all that said, join

47:32

me in two weeks. I'd like to tell you a story. This

47:35

is some research been written by Ray Jack. Special guest, I hope

47:37

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