0:00

There's these funny reels I see sometimes. It's like what

0:03

life feels like when you don't have a crush on

0:05

someone and it's so boring and stuff that I think

0:07

a lot of us even find our entertainment in it.

0:09

The entertainment. It's exciting. Oh

0:12

my God, did they watch my stories? Oh

0:14

my God, we matched on this app

0:16

and I can speak

0:18

for women. It's like the fantasy. We love it. And

0:22

it gives us this maybe like this little

0:24

pep in our step and something to, feels

0:26

like something to live for, but it's like,

0:28

but that's still the codependency of I have

0:30

something to live for if this

0:33

person that I don't even know might potentially

0:35

like me because it's still that Disney princess

0:38

within us that just wants to be chosen.

0:40

Right. And really we've taught people

0:43

that if you're not chosen, if you're not

0:45

chosen, there's not evidence of the recognition of

0:47

your value. Right. So even relationally

0:49

we say- And then we take this person. You

0:53

who I have put on the pedestal of

0:55

like my value of myself, if you don't

0:57

choose me, then this is

0:59

evidence that my dad never loved me. Right. That

1:01

is literally what we do. You're just the same.

1:04

Exactly. And I always say

1:06

to people that when you lose something that you

1:08

place your value in, it's to remind you that

1:10

it doesn't live there. Welcome

1:23

back to the highest self podcast. My

1:25

name is Sahara Rose and on this

1:27

podcast, I love to take spirituality and

1:29

matters of the heart and make it

1:31

really modern, grounded, fun, and relatable into

1:33

your life. For me, the

1:36

spiritual journey has been the journey back into

1:38

love. My own

1:40

divorce and heartbreak taught me more about

1:42

myself than anything in my whole entire

1:45

life. And I would definitely say I

1:47

was a spiritual person before, but it wasn't until I got my

1:49

heart shattered. Shattered, completely

1:51

ablaze, crying, grieving, releasing,

1:54

healing. That I was

1:56

like, oh shit, this is really what the spiritual journey

1:58

is about. And I

2:00

would say nothing else brings you to

2:02

your knees than heartbreak. And

2:04

I would say right now as a collective,

2:07

we're all going through it, whether you're in

2:09

a relationship or not, because, you

2:11

know, back in the day, it was like, kind

2:13

of like, ah, you like this person, they live

2:16

in your town, you get married, you have kids,

2:18

you don't question it too much. It was really

2:20

clear what the rules were. Whereas now our society

2:22

has shifted so much, we are more isolated than

2:24

ever before. So this one person is kind of

2:26

meant to be our emotional companion,

2:28

romantic partner, financial partner, business partner, someone we

2:31

raise our children with, and we're also always

2:33

supposed to have fun and dive deep into

2:35

spirituality. And we're both on separate growth journeys,

2:37

which should be growing at the same exploration

2:40

at the same time in the same location

2:42

and have great communication, but also really good

2:44

sexual compatibility. Like it's a tall fucking order,

2:46

you know, and I think a lot of

2:48

us are struggling with it because first of

2:51

all, none of us have seen it. You

2:53

know, we've all come from, you know, looking

2:55

at our parents' relationships where there was a

2:58

lot of unspoken stuff under the rug and we're

3:00

kind of, you know, grew up watching

3:04

Full House being like, I want that family

3:06

and are very quite far from it. And

3:09

is that actually what we really want? And I

3:11

think the opportunity right now is so many of

3:13

us have stepped into, hey, I don't want to

3:15

have a Shady 9to5 corporate job that I feel

3:18

zero connection with. I'm going to create my own

3:20

career. Hey, I don't want to just go

3:22

to this church because my family's always gone to this church. I

3:24

want to find my own spiritual practice. Well,

3:26

I feel the next invitation is looking at our

3:28

relationships and redefining what

3:31

do I actually want relationship for

3:33

and what are the patterns and limiting beliefs and

3:36

blind spots I'm coming in with? And

3:38

how can we be honest about the

3:40

ways that both of us are shifting

3:42

what both of our expectations are as

3:44

they change and grow and see if

3:46

we can continue to support each other

3:49

to be living our highest selves, to

3:51

be stepping into our Dharma's while also

3:53

recognizing that in relationship, there is an

3:55

element of sacrifice that naturally does happen

3:57

without also going into patterns of codependency,

4:00

which we're going to be talking about on

4:02

this podcast. So there's so much nuance when

4:05

it comes to relationship. And I feel like

4:07

it teaches us more about ourselves and our

4:09

soul paths as anything else. And

4:11

someone who I have been learning about relationships

4:13

from for like five years now, since I

4:15

met him back in I think 2018, we

4:17

were both speaking at a wanderlust conference and

4:19

I met him and I'm just like, Oh

4:21

my god, like literally best is we could

4:23

talk for hours. And he is you probably

4:25

have followed him on social media before create

4:27

the love and what I love about everything

4:29

he shares is first of all, he's a

4:32

straight man. So it's very helpful opinion to

4:34

have. Or like, tell us your ways you

4:36

can talk. What do you guys think? You

4:38

know, but on

4:40

top of that, he you know, he's a he's

4:42

a father, he's a husband, and he really is

4:44

a and he's also gone through his own breakup

4:46

and coming back together with his wife and, and

4:49

they just came out with a book together

4:51

called liberated love all about codependency. And here

4:53

on this podcast, we've talked about narcissism, we

4:55

talked about people pleasers, but we haven't really

4:57

talked about sometimes our side

4:59

of the street, you know, how, how

5:02

maybe how we were able to even

5:04

be a fit to be in these

5:06

relationships. And I feel like that's the

5:08

next stage of that healing journey of

5:10

okay, we can recognize those patterns and

5:12

other people, but what are those patterns

5:14

still within myself that makes me continue

5:16

to choose the same

5:18

archetype of person, which then affirms this belief

5:20

that everyone is like that. Or if we're

5:23

in relationship, continue to be in this pattern,

5:25

that's not serving us. And then

5:27

one day getting to this place that we're

5:29

like, I'm packing my bags and leaving, but

5:31

instead, giving the opportunity for the relationship to

5:33

have a death and rebirth within itself with

5:35

that same person. And before we drop into

5:38

this episode, be sure to hit subscribe wherever

5:40

you're listening to this podcast. That is the

5:42

best way to stay up to date on

5:44

the latest episodes. We've got this in video

5:46

format. So if you're just hearing my voice,

5:48

be sure to also watch our fabulous outfits

5:50

on video as well on Spotify, YouTube, or

5:53

the Apple store. This is the best way

5:55

to stay in the flow with future conversations

5:57

and also allows the podcast to reach more

5:59

people. So hit subscribe so I can keep

6:01

vibing with you on all future episodes. Now

6:03

let's get into this one. So

6:06

without further ado, let's welcome Mark Groves

6:08

to the HiSL podcast. Oh,

6:10

hi. Oh, hi. Beautiful intro.

6:13

Well, thank you for being here. Thank

6:15

you for having me. I'm so excited. We

6:18

are reunited after too

6:20

many years. We've been on some separate

6:22

journeys. Yes. And I'm so

6:24

excited to be able to come back at

6:26

this point in both of our lives, but

6:28

to also witness just your utter transformation and

6:31

what I, you know, I was just like, damn,

6:33

I can't wait to talk to her because there's some fire.

6:36

And what you said about breakups, I think it

6:38

was like that was a catalyst to my own

6:41

transformation at the original part of my journey of

6:43

wanting to understand relationships was why

6:45

am I so good at talking about everything about my

6:47

feelings? I was in sales. I was really good at

6:49

sales. It didn't make sense from a skill set perspective.

6:52

So I thought there's something more going on here. And

6:55

I now am a firm believer that there is

6:58

probably no more potent energy

7:01

of transformation than heartbreak. And

7:04

it's something that I used to be

7:06

like, like when I was in it, I'm

7:08

like, Oh, I wish no one has to experience this at now. I'm

7:10

like, I wish you do, you know,

7:13

because it teaches you so much. And I hope

7:15

that from that heartbreak, you're able to, you know,

7:17

create art from it in whichever way. And

7:20

I love how you were able to come back together

7:22

with your now wife and write this book. So I

7:24

want to talk about co dependency because I think most

7:26

of us wouldn't like openly

7:28

identify as being codependent. Like we

7:30

think of a codependent person as

7:32

like a hyper super people pleaser,

7:35

no sense of boundaries, no sense of

7:37

self. However, a lot of us, including

7:40

myself, I recognize had codependent tendencies, especially

7:42

that's the way a lot of us

7:44

women have been taught to relate. We

7:46

were taught that a relationship is dependence

7:49

on a man. And even men have

7:51

been taught a relationship is to provide

7:53

for her, which are

7:55

these kind of like archaic

7:57

structures of financial bondage, which

8:00

was what marriage was based on. And now, even

8:02

though it's not like that, we're still kind of

8:04

operating from that in the back burner of like,

8:06

yeah, we want true sacred union conscious love, but

8:08

there's still a lot of codependency there. So can

8:11

you share, first of all, like, how would you

8:13

define codependency? And how can we recognize that? Yeah,

8:16

it's such a beautiful point

8:18

in time, because we're really, a lot

8:20

of us are excavating old world relational

8:22

skills, which marriage, you know, you alluded

8:24

to that marriage was not about love,

8:28

you know, mostly historically, and there's a book

8:30

by Stephanie Coons called the history of marriage,

8:32

and she essentially breaks it down that like

8:34

really marriage was about getting more in loss.

8:37

So we use the skills that we needed

8:39

to keep that type of relationship together are

8:41

not the skills that are going to

8:43

allow a relationship that's about

8:45

mutual liberation, mutual expansion to come alive,

8:47

especially if I'm afraid of you as

8:50

a woman, if I'm in a relationship

8:52

with a woman, and I'm afraid that

8:54

if she develops her voice, she becomes

8:56

powerful, I might lose her. Okay,

8:59

well, then let's keep this same power dynamic

9:02

where relationships were really structured more around male

9:04

needs. And you actually being too much to

9:06

needy to whatever is actually a great narrative,

9:08

because then you won't use your voice, and

9:11

you won't leave me. So codependency,

9:14

we define in the book as

9:16

any relational dynamic, where

9:19

we source safety from something or

9:21

someone, at the expense of

9:23

our own needs, our own sense of

9:25

well being. And, and

9:28

through that, the really key words are at

9:30

the expensive. So I

9:32

think most people can relate, even if you're,

9:35

you know, in the pattern that

9:37

we're talking about, where we're maybe the woman is

9:39

raised to take care of everybody and forget about

9:41

her dreams and her passions, etc. And,

9:44

and then you have the other person in

9:46

the relationship, who is the provider, there's

9:49

still a sense of self abandonment in both.

9:51

Because even if I'm the provider,

9:54

but I'm not maybe I'm staying in a job

9:56

I hate, maybe I feel like there's not a

9:58

lot of emotional safety. in the relationship

10:00

and there's not space for me to be anything but the

10:02

person who pays the bills, there can

10:05

still be a sense of self abandonment. We

10:07

don't tend to see it on the other

10:09

side. We think of codependency generally, the term

10:11

is that was popularized years ago on

10:13

the idea of being a relationship with an addict. So

10:16

that's where it really came from because a

10:18

lot of people in relationships with addicts, it

10:21

is all about the other person. So

10:24

really, when you look at where this

10:26

behavior comes from, it's usually when we're

10:28

kids, not just culturally and from movies

10:30

and everything, we learn these

10:32

romantic stories, quote unquote, or like

10:35

the famous Jerry Maguire line, you

10:37

complete me, which everyone romanticized that

10:39

line. And I

10:41

remember thinking like, I got to take notes, that's a good one.

10:43

I'm going to drop that and I'm going to let you complete

10:45

me. That's not hot. If I

10:47

said that to you now, you'd be like, I want

10:49

to complete you. Complete yourself. I'd

10:52

be like, red flag. You

10:54

know, I need you. You can never leave me

10:56

is such now we'd all be

10:59

like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like I need

11:01

to have every song. Right.

11:03

And you think about actually, it

11:05

sounds unromantic, but what a beautiful

11:07

thing to be like, my happiness

11:09

is actually not dependent on you.

11:12

However, our relationship actually contributes to

11:14

my well-being. You

11:16

know, I'm I'm still great. And if we broke

11:18

up, that would be devastating for me, but I'd

11:20

be okay. And there's

11:22

actually something that's incredibly liberating about that. It

11:24

doesn't sound romantic. If that was your wedding

11:27

bow, no one in the audience would be

11:29

like, I'm sorry, what? You

11:31

know, unless someone has lost themselves in

11:34

relationship, forgotten about themselves, the most common

11:36

thing I see through, I mean, I'm

11:38

talking I've seen thousands and thousands and

11:40

thousands and thousands of comments and questions

11:43

is how do I really

11:45

what it comes down to is if it's through a breakup. I

11:49

forgot about me. I forgot about what I wanted.

11:51

I forgot about my dreams. We often

11:53

pursue all those things when we break up. And

11:57

I'm like, well, what happens if we created relationships that the

11:59

actual relationship is like, purpose of the

12:01

relationship is for both people

12:03

to come alive, for both people to

12:05

step into their healing, their voice, their

12:07

potential, that actually through the material that

12:09

is created in the friction of our

12:11

relationships. And this can be done as

12:13

a single person. This can happen through

12:15

the way you date, like turning

12:17

dating into this adventure of like

12:19

what comes up for me? We actually think

12:22

when we're dating and we get triggered that

12:24

there's something wrong with us that we got

12:26

triggered, but it's actually material that's being asked

12:28

to work with. And

12:30

we're like, wow, I thought I had that figured

12:32

out. That person didn't text

12:35

me back and now I'm cascading. And

12:37

it's like, what a gift. What

12:39

a gift because you still need to learn

12:42

that there's something about someone replying to you

12:44

that is correlated to your self-worth and your

12:46

value. And if you keep pursuing people who

12:48

don't reply to you, that is coming from

12:50

a place of believing you're not valuable. And

12:53

so you start to take pieces of

12:55

yourself back. And

12:57

I know this will resonate with you because of

12:59

the way that you see the world in your

13:01

work is that I think about

13:03

it, my wife and I do, that like what

13:05

a gift it is that your lineage is

13:08

trusting you with this. That

13:10

like maybe for the first time you're

13:12

the one who's like, you know, there's some

13:14

bags that I'm not interested in anymore. And

13:17

maybe I gave some to my kids. I'll take a

13:19

few of those back that

13:21

like what a gift that is to think about,

13:23

you know, so it's called codependency, but it's

13:25

really, you know, like what are

13:28

the frictions that we're experiencing in our relationships

13:30

and how do we forget about ourselves in

13:32

these experiences? So

13:36

I feel like during the holidays is

13:38

actually the best time to focus on

13:40

the thing that you've been putting off.

13:42

So for lots of you guys, it's

13:44

speaking, whether it's one day creating your

13:46

own podcast like this, please have me

13:48

on or speaking on stages, writing books,

13:50

creating social media content, creating a personal

13:52

brand around your wisdom. But

13:54

for a lot of us, the speaking part is a

13:56

little bit scary. We stutter, we feel like we're not

13:59

good at telling stories. lose people. We just

14:01

don't have that confidence to show up on

14:03

camera the way that we want to, but

14:05

you know that you have an important message to

14:07

share. So this is you. I'm really excited

14:09

that my course, Seek with Soul, is available

14:11

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14:13

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14:15

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if you check out the testimonials, people

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14:31

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14:33

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14:36

Speaking as my forte, I love doing it.

14:38

I've been doing this podcast for over seven

14:41

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14:45

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in a way that anchors into people's hearts

14:49

because we don't need any more of this

14:51

like super cerebral TED talk of like, Hey,

14:53

I have a vision and listen to me

14:55

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14:57

like instead to actually feel like

14:59

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SWS 25. You can find all of

15:19

that in the show notes. Shake

15:31

your ass for your ancestors. So

15:34

I had this thought one day it was

15:36

last summer and I was like, you know

15:38

what, I love work music. I love me

15:40

some little John welling out, but I don't

15:42

love what he's saying. I kind of have

15:44

to block it out. You know what I mean?

15:46

It's a little bit misogynistic and extremely disrespectful, but

15:48

I like the beats. So

15:50

I started to think about like, what would I want

15:53

to be shaking my ass to? And this line came

15:55

to me, shake your ass, be an ancestors, do

15:58

a dance, be an ancestors. Work

16:00

your back for your ancestors Make

16:03

it clap for your ancestors So

16:05

I got on the mic and I just went

16:07

all out just having fun with myself talking

16:09

shit saying the stuff And

16:12

I kind of just like let it be for a few

16:14

months I came back to it later and I was like,

16:16

oh I like this energy. I'm into this

16:19

So I started producing a beat for it I

16:21

was like, I really want like trap beat like,

16:23

you know, like trap twerk music But like

16:25

a little bit of dancehall in there as well

16:28

So started working on the beat and put

16:30

it together and ended up using the exact first

16:32

take that I did on the song Which is

16:34

a song you're listening to in the background right

16:36

now Shaky ask for your ancestors, which is on

16:38

my new album. My body is an altar There's

16:41

a lot of people's favorite songs on there We

16:43

actually shot the music video live at my album

16:45

launch party DJ set performance at Envision Festival. It

16:47

was so much fun I threw Furbies in the

16:49

crowd for everyone who was twerking. I was like

16:51

you've got a Furbie you got a Furbie I

16:53

got Tamagotchi. I kept that I couldn't let that

16:55

baby go But if you love this

16:57

music that you're listening to right now, you're gonna

16:59

love my new album. My body is

17:01

an altar It really is music for

17:03

the embodied baby girls. So you can

17:06

listen to it on Spotify Apple music

17:08

on YouTube There's a gorgeous music video

17:10

art piece to my body is an

17:12

altar And this music really

17:14

shifts your consciousness speaks your soul not

17:16

just in the production But the lyrics

17:18

melodies and it gives you the embodied

17:20

experience of this frequency So you can

17:22

find those links all in the show

17:24

notes And I'm so excited to see

17:26

you make some reels make some stories

17:28

Shaking your aspirin ancestors making them proud

17:30

thrown it back to making it clap And

17:32

of course getting paid for your ancestors because

17:34

a lot of us have had women in

17:36

our lineage Who did a lot of unpaid

17:38

labor? So it's time for us to get that

17:41

abundance back for them You know what?

17:43

I mean and do it so you can

17:45

stream the album right now. My body is an altar I

17:47

am so excited to see you hands out to it. And

17:49

thank you for being part of the mind-boggling I'm

17:52

so excited to be part of the

17:54

mind-boggling And I'm so excited to

17:56

be part of the mind-boggling Yeah,

18:02

it's crazy how you don't recognize

18:04

how much of this is ancestral.

18:06

I didn't recognize until my divorce

18:09

how much the story of betrayal

18:11

as, you know, especially for a

18:13

woman was seen as a commodity, you know,

18:15

in like Middle Eastern culture, as well as

18:17

in many Indian African cultures. A

18:19

woman is like a trophy

18:21

that like your rank in society

18:24

gets a certain youth and beauty

18:26

of women. Youth and beauty

18:28

is what you have for a man's

18:30

money, protectorship, status and society. And it's

18:32

like a trade off. And

18:34

you know, I was sharing with you that my grandmother

18:36

was 11 years old when she married my grandfather who

18:39

was 27. And my great grandmother

18:41

was 10 years old, married my great

18:43

grandfather who's 40 something years old. And,

18:45

you know, and beyond that, they had

18:48

multiple wives even then in the Middle

18:50

East. And the way that like for

18:52

me, I'm like, Oh, that's so crazy.

18:54

But that's not even that long ago.

18:56

Like, that's my dad's mom. Right? Like,

18:58

that is freaking crazy. And

19:00

then to think, Oh, well, that has nothing to do with me.

19:03

And like, even if I was

19:05

born and raised in the United States, it's still

19:07

in my lineage and in my programming. And

19:09

I even recognized through like doing deep

19:11

healing work that there was this like

19:13

underlying resentment within me, that for us

19:16

women, we always have to sacrifice. We

19:18

always have to give our women are

19:20

this commodity to birth the child of

19:22

this man who's like really

19:24

only for his lineage to continue on

19:26

for him to have access to more

19:28

land and resources and you're just this

19:30

tool for him. And

19:33

that resentment for me that I

19:35

was subconsciously holding on to actually had me

19:38

want closeness, but also not,

19:40

right? You know, like, Oh,

19:42

I want you here, but not too close because

19:44

I secretly am actually holding on to this resentment.

19:46

And actually wasn't until I told you I sat

19:49

with MDMA therapy, that that

19:51

allowed me to see that it was

19:53

almost like this hatred in my heart.

19:55

That was like a black tar over

19:58

my heart. black

20:00

tar didn't let me to fully feel.

20:02

So if my ex was distant

20:04

or separate to me, you know, I would go into

20:07

what I do wrong. And I was like, you know

20:09

what, I can't fully emotionally

20:11

regulate with this person. So let me

20:13

just like, focus on my own

20:16

thing. And that's kind of what our society tells us to do.

20:18

That's their thing and your thing. But I

20:21

think in true conscious relationship, it's, you know,

20:23

taking ownership that we all have to do

20:25

our own deep inner healing work. But also

20:27

we do bring on all these patterns that

20:30

is going to affect the other person, especially

20:32

if you're living together and creating a life

20:34

together. So my question for

20:37

you is for people who are like,

20:39

unsure of what their maybe ancestral wounds

20:41

are, how can we become more clear

20:43

of that? Yeah, in the

20:45

book, we walk people through discovering the

20:48

context of, you know, why

20:50

they do what they do relationally. And,

20:52

you know, I don't think that context is

20:54

necessary to change because you can know that you

20:56

do something and not know why, and

20:58

then know that you need to change it. So

21:01

a behavior can be separate of that. The

21:03

reason context is really important is because it

21:06

allows us to have compassion. So we now can put

21:08

the pieces together to see, Oh, it's not my fault.

21:10

And you know, a lot of the times someone will

21:12

come to me and say, you know,

21:14

they have a behavior that maybe they feel shame

21:16

about the repeated patterns of picking people that they

21:18

can't say no to someone who's toxic. First

21:21

thing I say is like, when they're like, I

21:23

can't believe I do that is I say, well, how could

21:25

you not like this exactly the

21:27

perfect behavior for survival that you learned

21:29

and it got you here to this

21:32

opportunity now, even through the

21:34

introspection, you're alive, like you now

21:36

are are stopping. And you're

21:38

asking a question that means you can now

21:40

create choice. So that's really

21:42

is like this insertion of choice. And

21:45

awareness is one part. The other part,

21:47

you know, I think about, okay, well, what's

21:49

the material that's coming up or lineage you

21:51

talked about? Well, look, we'll

21:53

hear someone say something like, well, the reason I

21:56

have anxiety is because I inherited it. My mom

21:58

had anxiety, my dad and my it's in my

22:00

family. It's not actually anxiety

22:02

that's in your family, it's behaviors that are

22:04

in your family. So they're just behaviors and

22:06

ways of being that lead to the experience

22:08

of anxiety. But anxiety is a symptom. And

22:11

I would say for a large part, a

22:13

lot of the time anxiety, which is

22:15

an inhibitory feeling, which means that it's

22:17

because it's a feeling that comes up

22:19

when we're not connected to one

22:22

or more of our core emotions. So

22:24

if I don't have access to anger,

22:26

grief, disgust, these

22:28

are all joy, it'll show

22:30

up as another feeling anxiety.

22:34

And so when we don't have

22:36

access to our voice, that

22:38

means I don't have access to choice. If

22:40

I don't have access to choice, I

22:43

can't direct my life. That's going

22:45

to show up as anxiety. So if

22:47

I never witnessed my mother, if I'm a

22:49

woman, I look up my matrilineal line, or

22:51

I'm a man, I look up my patrilineal

22:53

line, I see like when was the last

22:55

time that a woman had access to real

22:57

choice? Where she

22:59

didn't have to depend on a man, where

23:02

she didn't have to give up her sovereignty. And like

23:04

when you're 11, and you're born,

23:06

and you're married into a 20,

23:10

that's not choice. Right.

23:12

So when we as

23:14

adults wake up to like, why do why

23:16

am I tolerating this? My

23:19

the compassionate lenses, how could you

23:21

not? And there's

23:24

something being awoken through the frustrations,

23:26

the betrayals, that is saying, although

23:28

we might not have choice in

23:31

the acute nature of whatever is waking up,

23:33

right, like a betrayal comes out of nowhere.

23:36

What I always notice about betrayals, which I think

23:38

is really fascinating, my own experience of betrayal and

23:40

some big ones, is

23:42

that my experience of being betrayed was

23:45

always preceded by my own betrayal of myself.

23:48

And that might not have been conscious, right? It

23:51

could be that I just I learned throughout my

23:53

childhood and my family lineage to bypass a

23:55

red flag and alert. And if we

23:57

just learn that it's just normal for

24:00

us to stay in circumstances because

24:02

there's no intuitive connection to body.

24:06

That's why they're saying the longest journey is from the head to

24:08

the heart. Because it's so

24:10

short, literally, but it's

24:12

so long because we have to go through

24:15

the grieving process of like, you

24:17

gotta think generations. Like, you only

24:19

look back at three. But,

24:22

you know, this is embedded in culture.

24:25

And this is embedded in many cultures.

24:27

So part of the healing that comes

24:29

together and we're talking in this heteronormative

24:32

version of like my wife and I, or you and

24:34

your partner, is like,

24:36

what a beautiful opportunity. Like, when

24:38

my wife accesses more of her

24:41

voice, it makes our

24:43

relationship more powerful. It

24:45

makes me now get feedback from

24:47

a powerful woman who says, I see

24:50

this in you. A month ago, my wife said to me,

24:53

I see you hiding. Like, I

24:55

see you not living the thing you know. And

24:57

I was like, what? What are

24:59

you talking about? But it was like, it

25:02

was so beautiful to be witnessed. And

25:04

so beautiful to be witnessed in something that

25:06

I knew to be true, but I wasn't

25:08

living. And she was holding me to my

25:10

integrity. And that was a gift.

25:12

When I was 20, and if you're listening or watching

25:15

and you're an ex-girlfriend of mine, I did not see

25:17

it that way. And I, you

25:19

know, what a lesson that is that we have

25:21

to learn through the frictions of our previous relationships.

25:24

So I think the saying I'm

25:26

gonna take responsibility for it. Like

25:28

I might've inherited it. I might not have had a choice

25:31

in it, but it's mine. And

25:33

I'm actually going to be the first in however

25:35

long to actually step fully into

25:37

my power. And when relationships

25:40

are thinking about who's

25:43

got the upper hand, or I'm

25:45

not gonna text them back, or here's five ways

25:47

to get six people to do two things, you

25:49

know, not that the

25:52

skill sets aren't important because communication does

25:54

require a sense of, like

25:57

I can't just go into a conflict with my

25:59

partner and not have some. awareness of how to

26:01

structure a language that is that

26:03

is inviting and curious and and

26:06

not blaming. So

26:08

there's a competence part of it. But then there's the

26:10

other part, which is like, as soon as you're thinking

26:13

about power, you're lost. As soon

26:15

as you're thinking about upper hands, you're actually not

26:17

in your in your center. And

26:19

so this is like, when my wife

26:21

and I got back together, there was a lot of

26:23

rage from her. There was a lot

26:25

of distrust for me. Now, the rage from her

26:27

wasn't at me. But it was

26:29

at the fact that she was

26:31

seeing all the structures of how women

26:34

have been silenced. And I remember

26:36

sitting in the backyard, when

26:39

we first got back together, and she was like, I just need

26:41

to clear. And I was

26:43

like, all right. Like, I sat

26:45

there. And she let let

26:47

it go. And I didn't

26:49

personalize it. But

26:51

I was like, I can be part of

26:54

holding this space as a man for

26:56

her rage. And I

26:58

saw that as a gift. And I also felt the grief

27:00

of that. And I also felt the grief of male

27:03

lineage that exploits that through power.

27:05

How was she sharing that? She

27:07

was yelling. She was yelling, she

27:10

was expressing through her body. But

27:13

I didn't get defensive because it wasn't mine.

27:15

But I could see the

27:17

ways maybe I like

27:20

we have it, we talked about in the book, this

27:22

moment where we talk about these things

27:25

called codependent hooks. Codependent hooks are things

27:28

that we unconsciously do in order to

27:30

try to keep people close. So

27:33

when we were coming back together, Kylie was

27:36

going to fly into Vancouver, and I offered to

27:38

pay for her flight. And

27:40

she said no. And when

27:43

we had the conversation about it, she was

27:45

like, it didn't feel clean. And

27:48

she said to me, though, what's wrong

27:50

with me that I can't receive your

27:53

offer. And at the same time,

27:55

what came to me, which I never I

27:57

didn't even notice this, but because she was bringing this

28:00

I was like, huh, when

28:02

I offered to pay for a flight, I heard

28:04

this voice within me that was like, I call

28:06

it like my little golem, like my pineshes. And

28:10

it said, if she accepts

28:12

that you pay for it, you've got her. And

28:16

so when she presented this to me, I

28:18

said to her, actually, and she refers

28:20

to like the body's

28:24

experience, which doesn't matter if you're male

28:26

or female, the body's experience of that

28:28

intuitive sense is the somatic canary in

28:30

the coal mine. Because

28:33

for the first time in her life, she

28:35

didn't feel crazy because I said to her, actually,

28:37

I think what you picked up on was this

28:39

thing that I just dismissed because I was like,

28:41

that's ridiculous. I would never, that's not why I'm

28:43

offering. And she was like, I

28:46

remember we just had this moment where she cried because she

28:48

was like, I've

28:50

been told my whole life, there's something wrong

28:52

with me that I'm trying to move away

28:54

from this or I don't trust it. Because

28:57

it came with conditions. Now

28:59

listen, there are going to be inherent

29:02

power structures that happen when one person's

29:04

paying and the other's not, right? So

29:06

we're not saying those don't exist. But

29:09

what doesn't exist is the explicit communication

29:11

about what do we feel like we

29:13

have to give up or what do

29:15

we think we're getting. So we start

29:17

to take what's implicit in these ways

29:19

that men and women have maintained

29:23

some sense of stay close to me. We're

29:26

bringing that forward so that

29:28

it's not unconsciously or silently manipulating. So all

29:31

of a sudden, like right now, my wife,

29:33

we have a one year old, so she's

29:35

not working. So I'm

29:37

paying for things. And so

29:39

we're able to say, what does that feel

29:41

like for you? It doesn't

29:44

feel like you can't use your voice as much. How

29:46

do I help facilitate that? That's not true.

29:49

What financial set up do you need an account

29:51

that has this amount of money that allows you

29:53

to feel some? So I'm not taking it personally.

29:56

We're actually working on like

29:58

generations of stuff. And

30:00

as soon as we can depersonalize it, that's

30:03

where the real magic starts to happen.

30:05

Do you know what I mean? I really

30:07

want to talk about this

30:10

idea of money and paying for people

30:12

and codependency because I think that this

30:14

is where a lot of these codependent

30:16

structures come from. I

30:19

had this dream the other night, which is

30:21

so perfect. You're hearing that. I

30:23

like it. I'm ready. And in this

30:25

dream, there was this elder councilwoman and she had

30:27

a group of us women, but it was also

30:29

a friend of mine and her male partner. And

30:32

she was telling us, she said, the reason

30:34

why you women have had to go through

30:37

these heartbreaks and these initiations is because you

30:39

have learned as the feminine that to be

30:41

in relationship with someone is to depend on

30:43

them. And the new paradigm

30:45

of relationships is to break through these

30:47

codependent patterns. Now in the

30:49

dream, the man, my friend's partner

30:52

was saying, no, don't listen to her, to

30:54

his partner. So it was

30:56

him not wanting to give up that control

30:58

of, well, if I pay for you, then

31:00

I get to choose. And

31:02

also like I was sharing with you how a lot of the

31:05

dating advice out there, like I was telling

31:07

you about the Sprinkle Sprinkle. I couldn't believe

31:10

it, man. Again, like she shares some

31:12

interesting things, but the concept of it is how

31:14

to be a sugar baby, you know,

31:16

how to Sprinkle Sprinkle Sprinkle. It's funny,

31:18

but it's teaching you how to be a gold

31:20

digger because her idea is that

31:22

men will lie to you, betray you,

31:25

break your trust. You're going to end up heartbroken. You're going

31:27

to end up doing all the emotional labor. So

31:29

you might as well get the bag because

31:32

as women, her belief is that historically

31:34

we've always been paid for and provided

31:36

for simply for being and that

31:39

you being pretty and in your feminine energy

31:41

is enough and that you should have your

31:44

bills and your lifestyle taken care of for

31:46

that. And don't

31:48

put love on a pedestal because love will

31:50

go away, but your survival

31:53

and safety is more important. She's

31:55

hitting on this really true

31:58

root chakra, I think. conditioning

32:00

slash biological thing that a lot of

32:02

women have of like, it

32:04

feels good to be provided for, I feel safe, I feel

32:07

taken care of, I feel invested, and I feel like this

32:09

person wants a future in me. They feel

32:11

taken care of. But at the same

32:13

time, there's no such thing as free lunch, like

32:16

they say in economics, and oftentimes,

32:19

you think that, oh, someone providing for me and

32:21

me being in my feminine will be enough, but

32:23

then that person may have this concept of well,

32:25

because I'm paying for you, you don't get to

32:27

choose. You don't get to decide where we

32:29

live and what our life looks like. You don't get to

32:32

know what's really going on in my

32:34

extramarital affairs. And, you know, if there's

32:36

anything my lineage has taught me is

32:38

like, that's actually not what you really

32:40

want. But I think we're in this

32:42

really interesting place right now where,

32:44

you know, there are more college

32:46

educated women than men and slowly,

32:48

there's more female homeowners than men.

32:51

And women are starting to out earn men.

32:53

And at the same time, they're wanting a

32:55

man who can provide for them. Then a

32:57

lot of these men are feeling like, you

33:00

know, you're making more money than

33:02

me, it doesn't make sense for me to

33:04

have to provide for you when there has

33:06

been this feminist movement that has allowed you

33:08

to, you know, equally and now even out

33:10

earn me. And then there's a

33:12

lot of blame on the feminist movement being

33:14

the thing. So I'm curious, what

33:17

do you see with like, there

33:20

is this beautiful, chivalrous thing about men, you know,

33:22

taking care of dinner and taking care of dates

33:24

and things like that. But then a lot

33:27

of women would are choosing to just be with

33:29

someone who could provide a lifestyle for them

33:31

rather than love. So I'm curious your take on

33:33

this conversation. A lot of layers of grenades

33:35

and that one I like it. Yeah. The

33:38

first part I'll say is that when we resign

33:42

to the idea of becoming a

33:44

sugar baby, which I'm

33:46

not shaming anyone's choice of that if that's what

33:48

you choose. But you

33:50

are definitely exchanging something. And I think

33:53

of Carolyn Mase works where she talks

33:55

about the prostitute archetype. And so

33:57

regardless of our gender, we can start to

33:59

sell ourselves. out for things. Now

34:02

we have to just give historical context which

34:04

is the recognition that if my

34:07

root chakra needs of shelter and food and that

34:09

are taken care of then I have a baseline

34:11

of safety and then I can make more choices

34:13

if we think about it from a nervous system

34:16

perspective. I'm more resourced, I've got more space. So

34:19

a lot of the times the reason that people

34:21

can't leave relationships but especially in

34:23

relational structures that are historic women

34:26

is because there's no financial safety so

34:28

we know about the histories of financial

34:30

abuse things like that. So we have

34:32

that layer of understanding that truly it's

34:34

hard to be in choice when you

34:36

don't have your baseline needs covered. So

34:39

we have to start to create more

34:41

resources through getting a second job through

34:43

creating some sort of sideline income that

34:45

allows our nervous system to expand so

34:47

we can think about exiting a relationship

34:49

if that's what we need to

34:51

do. So there's that layer

34:53

of that now then you have this

34:55

idea of like if I'm in my

34:57

feminine and I'm being provided for but

35:00

I'm also making more money than most

35:02

men that's going to be a strange

35:04

paradox to try to hold. Again it's

35:06

also this idea that being in your

35:08

feminine is about receiving financial support versus

35:10

maybe the structure of the man's actually

35:13

true essence of his masculinity and providing

35:15

is actually a bedrock of support for

35:17

the woman to fully step into her

35:19

power. When men are in insecurity they

35:21

have a hard time being with powerful women because

35:24

there's a feeling that her power in some

35:26

way inhibits my self-worth

35:28

which is correlated to my ability

35:31

to provide. So the

35:33

man has to dismantle where his

35:35

self-worth lives. Now I'll say the

35:37

sort of extreme versions of these

35:39

is that often a woman will

35:41

go into this hyper providing, hyper

35:43

independent, hyper financially successful

35:45

role from a place of wounding.

35:48

Never will I ever need a man, never will I

35:50

ever depend on a man and a man

35:52

can do that too like never will I need someone, never

35:54

will I depend on someone. I'd say that's the the

35:57

paradigm swing of the response.

36:00

response to the exploitation of

36:02

money and power that has happened in

36:04

relational structures and in society. We

36:07

have to bring all that into context because a

36:09

lot of the time what is actually happening is

36:12

the woman is not open. She's

36:14

not open because she said in the mind,

36:16

when someone says to me, I'm afraid of

36:19

commitment, I

36:21

always say to them, you're not afraid of commitment, you're afraid

36:23

of where commitment leads. If I'm

36:25

afraid to be in a relationship with

36:27

a man who I

36:30

might need them, now

36:33

I open myself up to wounding exploitation,

36:37

the loss of my voice, my power. These

36:40

are all just important things to start

36:42

to play with because sometimes I'll get

36:44

asked can

36:46

standards be so high

36:48

that they're actually a way that no one can meet us.

36:53

I can never know someone's own subjective experience

36:55

of that but what I can say is

36:57

when you get in touch with

36:59

the deeper senses of your body, then

37:02

you'll know if that's true or not.

37:04

You can just feel into yourself or

37:06

my standards actually walls. Did I become

37:08

hyper individuated because the opposite of codependency

37:11

is overt individuation. That's not healthy

37:14

either. You have a bunch

37:16

of islands walking around with no one experiencing

37:18

connection. I think

37:20

of Harvold Hendricks and Helen Hunt's work where they talk

37:22

about we're wounded in relationship, we're

37:24

born in relationship, we're wounded in relationship

37:26

and we heal in relationship. What

37:29

we need to learn how to do and really what

37:31

our book is about is about honoring two paths

37:34

as their own, that both people

37:36

are sovereign beings and recognizing

37:39

the innate wisdom in one versus the other.

37:42

There's no longer this idea of

37:45

control or exploitation or anything

37:47

like that. We

37:50

talk about it being that there's a

37:52

mutual positive regard. I like

37:54

this idea of a deep sense of reverence. I

37:57

think about that in the context because often

37:59

what it... I'll hear men say in

38:01

response to some of the things men

38:04

say about relational structures and healing

38:06

them. Oh, you're just pandering

38:08

to female audiences, just pandering to

38:10

women. What about men? And

38:13

my response to that is that it's

38:16

actually really important that when there's

38:18

been an exploitation of any kind,

38:20

that there is actually reparation and

38:23

accountability that's taken, even

38:26

if you're not the person who did it, because

38:28

the woman has likely experienced that. And

38:33

in what way is it pandering to

38:35

acknowledge the exploitation of power that has

38:38

clearly happened, like if you're paying attention,

38:40

still happens. So that's

38:42

a long answer to that.

38:45

Really what needs to start to be done

38:47

is the recognition that if we're thinking about

38:49

power structures, we have to start thinking about

38:52

availability. We have to start thinking about wounds

38:54

and we have to start thinking about how

38:57

do I be in a relationship with someone else

38:59

and hold on to myself? And

39:02

how do I actually co-create a space with

39:04

them that is about also

39:06

honoring them? So there starts

39:08

to be a recognition that you're a human who has

39:10

needs. I'm a human who has needs. I

39:13

don't want you to give up what you need and what you

39:15

want to be in a relationship with me. I

39:18

actually want our relationship, even as friends, right?

39:20

Because liberated love is not just about romance.

39:23

Even as friends, I would never want you

39:25

to compromise what you desire. Like

39:27

it is actually in my greatest intention, and I

39:29

know you know this from me, that you are

39:31

the most powerful version of Sahar. Like that, I

39:34

actually can't think of anything better. I remember when I

39:36

saw you like stepping out

39:38

of the divorce, I was like, shit, I want

39:41

to get on this train. This

39:43

is like, she's on fire. Because

39:45

that to me is actually a gift that's healing for

39:47

you, but that's healing for the world. Think

39:50

about how many people now have been touched by your story.

39:53

So I'm curious, you know, most

39:56

of my friends make more money than their partners,

39:58

you know, because a lot of female entrepreneurs

40:00

and I've tried

40:02

dating people who like

40:04

don't make as much money as me or nearly as

40:07

much money as me and it was

40:09

never a problem for me. Yeah. But

40:11

it's always ended up being a problem for them. So

40:14

even though I don't want to be in

40:16

this in this model and for me it's

40:18

I don't need a man for money because

40:20

I've created a life you know outside of

40:22

my lineage I find that

40:24

this continues to come up of men

40:27

being intimidated and then coming

40:29

up with some sort of excuse on why it can't

40:32

work. So I'm curious how you have seen relationship models

40:34

work where women are making more money. Well,

40:36

I think it does require that there is space

40:38

for the vulnerability of the male to explore what

40:41

comes up for them instead of that

40:43

it's a you know if they have

40:45

the capacity to do that but instead of

40:47

that it's like a rejection of that there's

40:49

actually curiosity to like because on a deeper

40:52

level it's really that you're like who am

40:54

I if I'm not taking care and then

40:56

this idea that they're not doing enough. Right

40:59

and then we and if I'm not taking care of you

41:01

then I don't have control right.

41:04

So I have to actually go into the

41:06

deeper basis of that the what

41:08

makes our relationship secure is

41:11

that I become the type of man that you're

41:13

not going to want to leave because

41:15

I actually want to participate

41:18

in a relationship that's co-creative that

41:20

doesn't use control mechanisms. Right

41:22

and I do notice like in those relational

41:25

dynamics sometimes the woman can have a hard

41:27

time actually paying for things. I've seen that

41:29

too actually being the quote

41:32

unquote more of the provider because

41:34

then what does that mean because there is

41:36

such a deep cultural messaging that there ends

41:38

up being a sort of sense of disrespect

41:41

or disgust towards the male. It's

41:43

much like we want men who are

41:45

really emotionally intelligent right. That's the common

41:48

narrative that we have yet

41:50

in the research when a man is emotional

41:54

he's seen as the

41:56

woman feel exactly. So I

41:59

am Brene Brown. about that. In

42:01

her research she saw that when men cried

42:03

the woman actually lost trust in him. So

42:05

we have this narrative like we want more

42:07

emotionally intelligent men who did it but then

42:09

when you actually look at who women choose

42:13

that's what creates what men

42:15

want to become. So if you see what women

42:17

are choosing

42:20

that's what motivates men because

42:23

they want to aspire to be like the

42:25

person who gets the most mates. Yeah

42:27

and on the flip side men say oh

42:29

yeah I want a woman who's like in

42:32

her full power and in her voice

42:34

and yeah and then they're like exactly right

42:36

they go for someone who you know submissive

42:39

me makes them feel powerful and then he will

42:41

even cheat on them too. Yeah

42:43

like I think if we're really getting down

42:45

to like what can we personally do about

42:48

it it's

42:51

that we can't worry about trying to get

42:53

a man or a woman to change what

42:55

we need to do is get

42:58

so centered in ourselves that we're actually not

43:00

even focused on those men we're not even

43:02

focused on those women because

43:04

there is an energetic and a knowing

43:06

that starts to happen when you're so

43:08

rooted and I do think it's an

43:10

important point of inquiry is like is

43:13

there any part of me that through

43:15

my financial independence has actually created a

43:17

way to prevent myself from opening

43:19

up and in becoming interdependent

43:21

with someone. And I actually just

43:24

in the smallest way using

43:26

it to prevent vulnerability and

43:29

dependency and I would I would imagine

43:31

that the answer is probably

43:33

yes and that means

43:35

and not for everybody but I'd say like

43:37

99% of course right

43:39

because the motivation of it is wounding. So

43:42

we've seen so many women be

43:44

left with nothing so can

43:46

we if we can be with that

43:48

truth then we can recognize that actually

43:50

we're part of the dynamic that they're

43:52

picking up on that there is

43:55

actually a way that we're trying to create a

43:57

hierarchy and protect ourselves and so

43:59

if we can actually bring that the

44:01

relationship now we can heal the wound

44:03

that occurred through financial exploitation. So how

44:05

can we have the conversation

44:07

of sharing finances coming from

44:09

this place of independence and

44:12

interdependence? Right. This is the

44:14

answer to it all, right? Well, the

44:16

first part I think is being able

44:18

to create the type of relationship that

44:20

can hold the reactivity that will

44:22

come from that conversation. Because

44:24

if you say to let's say a woman who's

44:26

created that type of financial independence, or

44:29

you're doing that in some way to prevent

44:31

yourself from depending on people, there might be

44:33

a reaction like, of course I am. Have

44:36

you seen what happened in society? Have you

44:38

seen, right? And so can

44:41

a man hear that and

44:43

not make it about him? And instead be

44:45

like, tell me more about

44:47

that. Like, what has that been like

44:49

to witness? What was

44:51

that like for you to see

44:54

that your mother didn't have a choice? Like,

44:57

what can I do to help

44:59

build trust in that? And

45:01

that there's a plan together that comes

45:04

from that. That's

45:06

where the healing really begins. Because

45:08

this idea that we're just going to pretend

45:11

that these dynamics don't exist, or that there

45:13

isn't wounding in these spaces. And

45:16

like, what was it like for a man to

45:18

think that his only value and his ability

45:20

to provide procreate and protect,

45:24

right? Like, that is also, we

45:26

I think in consciousness,

45:29

we forget that we're mammals. So

45:31

there's like, there's like sort of an

45:33

arrogance to awareness. And it's

45:35

this idea that I'm not a mammal with a nervous

45:38

system. And that's why there's really no

45:40

healing without the healing of the nervous system, because

45:42

you're still, you're still a human

45:44

with a lower with a brainstem. You

45:46

know, and so when you get triggered,

45:49

you're beautiful, critical thinking prefrontal cortex says

45:51

the Zia like there's no blood perfusing

45:53

to this part of the brain anymore.

45:57

And so I think they're there we're talking healing on

45:59

a nervous system. system level, which

46:01

is primal, but it's also

46:04

actually sacred and ancestral. There's

46:07

this really interesting, there's a lot of studies looking at

46:09

this, but if you think about a pregnant

46:13

female at

46:15

that time has, let's say, a

46:17

daughter in the womb. By

46:20

I believe it's week nine, the cells that

46:22

will become eggs are in the daughter. So

46:25

in one woman, you have three generations.

46:27

Wow. So if

46:30

this woman's in a

46:32

state of exploitation,

46:34

dependence, her body

46:36

is actually programming the lineage to

46:38

prepare for an environment like that.

46:42

Wow. So now we

46:44

have so much more context to the

46:46

nervous system. And you know, when a

46:48

baby is in a mother who's in

46:50

a high stress state, the baby is

46:52

exposed to more circulating cortisol, and then

46:55

they call it secondary PTSD. So the

46:57

baby actually has a hard time producing

47:00

cortisol. And so they have

47:02

a harder time getting back into a regulated state. And

47:04

again, none of this is destiny, but

47:07

it's context and the context is important. So

47:10

I say all that because I really start to see

47:12

that the nervous system, although

47:14

it's this beautiful biological structure, I

47:17

also consider it to be a connection to soul,

47:19

to connection to history, a connection to ancestry, a

47:22

connection to, you know, the greater. This

47:26

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So I'm

47:28

curious if right now you have something on your

47:30

mind that you're continuously stressing over and maybe it's

47:32

something that you really need to get off your

47:35

chest. It's a conversation you need to have a

47:37

boundary, you need to make an action you need

47:39

to take, but you're kind

47:41

of stressing out around how you're going to say it,

47:43

how you're going to approach it. And it's eating you

47:45

alive. Well, if you have felt that

47:47

way, and I know I have many, many times throughout

47:49

my life, it's really important to go to therapy. This

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provides us a safe space to talk these

47:54

things out, get them off of our chest

47:56

because if we don't, they can actually affect us

47:58

inevitably. much more light

48:00

and free when we just express the things

48:03

that are on our mind. So if you're

48:05

thinking about getting started with therapy, I highly

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48:09

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48:11

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first month. That's BetterHelp, help.com/Sahara.

48:39

You can find that link

48:41

in the show notes. Totally.

48:51

And I feel like on this topic

48:53

as a woman, when I look at

48:55

the two options, option

48:59

one being, let's say I was in

49:01

a relationship and he asks me, is

49:03

there any form of independence

49:06

or resistance you have to trusting the

49:08

masculine? And this is why you have

49:10

created your own business

49:12

and you have your own bank account doing

49:14

the healing work on that. Reverse the

49:17

option of, you're right, I'm going

49:19

to completely let go of this and get

49:21

pregnant by you and rely

49:23

on you. And then let's

49:26

say an affair or he walks away or something

49:28

that happens. And then I literally have nothing.

49:30

Right. Then I'm like between these two

49:32

options of like not fully opening up

49:34

my heart to the maximum and like

49:36

literally ending up homeless. Right. I'll take the

49:39

first one. Exactly. And so I think

49:41

a lot of us women, we hear,

49:44

Oh, be in your feminine, receive, open your

49:46

heart, trust the masculine. And then we see

49:49

the woman around us who have three kids and find

49:51

out that he was eating and now are stuck on

49:53

their own. And we're like, I

49:56

can never be that. So it

49:58

feels it's like as much as we want

50:00

to, I think that reality hits of

50:02

like, we also just don't know, especially

50:04

because relationships these days are are so

50:07

fickle. So I'm curious, like

50:09

when when those feel like your two options,

50:12

like how can you start that, that

50:14

feeling? Well, those

50:16

are the two options that appear.

50:19

But there is a there are more

50:21

than two. Because imagine if actually

50:23

the experience we have is that

50:26

you tell me those are your two options. And

50:29

then I say to you, what would be a third? What would

50:32

allow you to maintain your sovereignty, maintain

50:35

your sense of choice, and

50:38

open up? What

50:40

would that be for you? Yeah, and I

50:42

would say, you know, potentially creating

50:44

a bank account that both people

50:47

put into that for the household options and

50:49

the shared things or you would, I mean,

50:51

I guess it would also depend on on

50:53

both of their finances, but maybe

50:55

he pays for like dinners out and dates

50:58

and things like that. But then they split

51:00

things like the rent. So she continues to

51:02

have her own resources in case something happens.

51:04

And I think having a conversation too, if

51:06

she's taking time off and cannot work because

51:08

she's raising children, you know,

51:10

that is a huge value that she's adding. And

51:13

I and I feel a lot of women, especially

51:15

if they're not married, they don't, they don't have

51:17

that I have friends who are single moms. And

51:19

I'm like, I can't even imagine right now. You

51:21

do the worst. So yeah, that's how I would

51:23

go buy it. But it does feel like

51:25

with a lot of the online

51:28

relationship information we get, it's either like surrender into

51:30

your feminine and just fully receive and like let

51:32

the mask you lead and it's just because your

51:34

heart is closed or like, yeah, that's, you

51:36

know, bypassing bullshit, right? Because we're really what

51:39

that thing is don't trust your intuition. The

51:41

reason that you're the reason that you're not

51:43

getting these type of men are creating these

51:45

type of circumstances is because you're not in

51:47

your feminine. So it blames you. Right.

51:50

Instead of what I would

51:52

recommend is one there's brilliance

51:55

in your in your reservations. So

51:58

already, I'm not gaslighting the woman's

52:00

experience. There's brilliance in any human's

52:02

reservations. So what's coming up for

52:04

you is material to be healed and worked with.

52:07

So what I would say is, instead,

52:09

there is no such thing

52:12

as opening your heart with

52:16

no guardrails. That's bullshit.

52:18

That's codependency. That's people pleasing. That's

52:21

actually not having discernment and choice.

52:24

Because there is like, again, oh, it's

52:26

your the problem to your relational

52:29

outcomes. Yes, you are

52:31

choosing them. But there

52:35

is a level of responsibility for both people

52:37

who are in relationship. And

52:39

you should never just give your heart to anyone.

52:41

I think of the archetype that

52:43

really kind of speaks to this is

52:45

I believe that people have both a

52:47

child and a warrior in them. And

52:50

if you're too much of a child, a

52:52

child will love everybody. A child will

52:54

forgive everybody. A child when is young

52:57

and its parent doesn't show up actually

53:00

internalizes that as a failure of

53:02

themselves. So a child

53:04

will get an event with someone who has

53:06

candy, right? Like a child

53:08

really will love all out, much like

53:10

a dog, right? Like a dog will love all out.

53:12

I feel like that's the maiden archetype for women.

53:15

Yeah. And then there's the warrior, which

53:18

is probably more the mother, right?

53:20

And so the warrior is

53:23

someone who cut shit, who's

53:25

like, hell no. But you

53:27

can't walk around like that, because

53:30

that's the independent, financially independent, Beyonce

53:32

archetype, which there's nothing wrong with

53:34

Queen Bee. But the archetype

53:36

really says like, I will, I'm not open

53:39

to anybody. If you violate me,

53:41

done. And we're saying like, how

53:43

do you actually be with both? To open your

53:46

heart, you have to trust what you're choosing. It's

53:49

like when you're starting to date somebody, we think,

53:51

well, if I bring forward that I'm starting

53:54

to really enjoy this, it

53:56

might push them away. It

53:58

doesn't push away aligned people. If

54:00

you're saying, you know what, if I'm gonna

54:02

continue to explore this, I actually need to know

54:04

we're not dating other people. I

54:06

don't wanna say that. I don't wanna be too

54:09

much. That'll push away the

54:11

wrong people. But if

54:13

you're really curating what you're opening to,

54:16

then you need to do that. And

54:18

so it's this same idea as like, of

54:21

course you can't fully surrender into your feminine.

54:23

That's the woman who walks down the aisle

54:25

with the person who's not aligned. That's the

54:28

woman who gets gas-lit and love-bombed. Because

54:30

she was told to bypass how she

54:32

feels because what's wrong with

54:34

her that she can't be

54:36

taken care of? And

54:39

I'm saying like, what happens if, because

54:41

this wounding can exist in any human,

54:44

what happens if we actually see a return

54:47

to your body, a return to your

54:49

knowing? I think we are

54:51

in one, an attack on women.

54:54

That's going on in the world right now. But

54:57

at the same time, we're in

54:59

a restoration and this recognition, and

55:01

it's, of course they always exist in these paradoxes,

55:04

right? That there's a

55:06

restoration of the sacredness of what it

55:08

means to be a woman. The sacredness of the womb, a

55:11

sacredness of the earth, which is

55:13

the womb. So how

55:15

do we restore what's sacred within

55:18

ourselves? How do we restore

55:20

what's sacred in our relationships to one

55:22

another? Because if you and I

55:24

treat the friendship that we have as

55:27

a sacred space between the two of us, then

55:29

the way we're gonna treat each other is

55:32

going to be very different. There's gonna be

55:34

a deep level of reverence, which we've always had for

55:36

one another. And so if

55:38

we could start to model that with ourselves and

55:41

with our friendships, avoiding

55:43

relationships isn't going to be the

55:45

solution. Moving towards them

55:47

as you build new skill sets and access to

55:50

your voice, that's the key is like, how

55:53

do I get more access to this? And

55:56

so in the book, we talk about this principle of

55:58

taking a sacred pause and then regarding.

56:00

regardless of relational status. What we're

56:02

really talking about is actually taking a moment

56:04

for your nervous system to thaw out, for

56:06

the patterns of what you've done, you start

56:08

to assess the inherited stuff. And

56:11

you start to say like, what do I

56:13

want? And you also recognize

56:15

how much you've been sourcing, how much

56:17

you've been giving up yourself, how much

56:20

you've been avoiding loneliness, rejection, abandonment, and

56:23

you start to trust yourself. So

56:25

when someone's like, how do I stop choosing unavailable

56:28

people? I'm like

56:30

going to a container, that's what we call

56:32

it, but like, which is really a agreement

56:34

that you create for yourself or with someone.

56:38

And actually say, here's our intention. Here's what

56:40

I want to do as a single person.

56:42

I want to assess and figure this out.

56:45

And what comes up is,

56:48

I mean, it's crazy. It's wild the

56:50

healing that happens when we get that intentional.

56:52

Like I'm not gonna date for three months. And

56:55

all here someone say three months, like

56:57

I haven't dated in five years. I've

56:59

already been doing a sacred pause. And

57:01

I'm like, no, you haven't. And

57:04

my response to that always, when

57:06

someone says I don't have time, is like, you

57:08

don't have a choice. Like I'll be having the

57:10

same conversation with you in a year or two

57:12

years. Like this work is

57:15

important. And it allows

57:17

us to enter into relationships that are, like

57:20

there's a mutuality, you know what I mean? Yeah,

57:22

it's so real. So I remember

57:24

after my divorce, like it

57:26

felt like my right arm was chopped off

57:30

and I didn't even know how to be as like a

57:32

single person because I was in a seven year relationship. And

57:35

it felt like there's this

57:37

huge void in my life for like the

57:40

biggest figure in my life. And

57:42

I can't go back to like working or doing

57:44

anything until I've like figured out this problem, insert

57:48

someone else. And very quickly

57:50

I was just like, okay,

57:53

I'm just like gonna get on a dating app and like find some

57:55

of my Capricornis and just like find someone like move on. Obviously,

57:59

you know. I went on a day when

58:01

it was like two months after it. I

58:03

was so not ready in any way. And

58:07

I remember thinking I was like, okay, like they

58:09

say after three months or they say it's after

58:11

six months or like giving this like time where

58:13

I would like ask my friends, I'm like, when

58:16

does it stop hurting? Like around when, like as

58:18

if there would be like this moment that it's

58:20

like, and now you are totally healed and totally

58:22

over it. And what it

58:24

taught me was that, you know, thank

58:27

goddess, my spirit guides or whoever

58:29

else protected me from getting into

58:32

a relationship even though that's what

58:34

I actually wanted because

58:36

I would have just gone into a relationship that

58:38

had the exact same patterns and that version of

58:40

me would have played out that story or, you

58:42

know, whatever lesson it was I was learning at

58:45

that time and at that time. And, you know,

58:47

after a few months went by and

58:49

I would realize I'm like, oh, thank God, that person

58:51

I had like a huge crush on three months ago

58:53

never happened because I would have been stuck on this

58:55

idea of like what I share on social media is

58:57

too much and I would have done that or this

58:59

idea of like, what will whatever thing? And

59:02

as time went by, I'm recognizing

59:04

I am meeting new versions of myself

59:06

and new versions of myself. So the

59:08

longer I kind of wait to get

59:10

into relationship which doesn't mean to wait

59:12

forever, like they

59:15

will be meeting a totally different version of me. And

59:18

it wasn't this intentional thing like you talked

59:20

about in the book because I definitely,

59:22

like, and I think a lot of us who go through

59:25

big divorces and breakups, the

59:27

last thing you wanna hear is don't date because

59:29

you're like, well, I was so lonely in the

59:31

marriage. That what I

59:33

really want is romance and intimacy and

59:36

passion but I unintentionally entered into the

59:38

celibacy journey that I have been in

59:40

ever since. And it has been the

59:43

most liberating and healing thing, a liberated

59:45

love because it showed

59:47

me that had I gotten into, into

59:49

a relationship and even sexual relationship with

59:51

certain people, it's like as a woman,

59:53

you start creating those oxytocin bonds and

59:56

you start, you know, even like what

59:58

I feel society tells us to do. to do

1:00:00

is just have your situationship until

1:00:04

you find that person. But then what happens is you start

1:00:06

to try to make your situationship your relationship.

1:00:09

Yeah, inevitably. Inevitably, and

1:00:11

they went into it. And at

1:00:13

least a lot of them are honest that

1:00:16

they don't want that. And then women are

1:00:18

biologically now connected to this person. So for

1:00:20

me, choosing to abstain from being in any

1:00:22

kind of situationship has allowed me

1:00:24

to fully do that healing work on myself,

1:00:26

meet new parts of myself, not be tied

1:00:28

to someone that I knew going into it

1:00:31

I wouldn't have been a fit with simply

1:00:33

because I was lonely at that time. And

1:00:35

that's also what allowed me to travel. Like, you know, when

1:00:38

I, for example, I was telling you I was living in

1:00:40

London, I was like, oh yeah, I'm totally gonna like find a

1:00:42

British guy. I didn't. However,

1:00:44

if I did, when my place

1:00:46

was broken into in London, could I have just like

1:00:48

left the next day? No, because I would have been

1:00:51

in a relationship. So I do

1:00:53

feel that sometimes we are divinely protected even

1:00:55

in a way that like, you consciously

1:00:58

wouldn't have chosen from yourself that it's

1:01:00

like God protecting us of like, let

1:01:02

me create this energetic field around you.

1:01:04

And I've spoken to so many women that first I

1:01:07

was like, I've been cosmically cock blocked. Like why is

1:01:09

it working? Yeah. But

1:01:12

now I'm like, oh no, it was like the most

1:01:14

divine protection because now, you know, when you have a

1:01:16

crush on someone's like all you can see is the

1:01:18

good. And then you get out of the bubble, you're

1:01:21

like, I was like thinking there. And

1:01:23

because I didn't have that oxytocin bond going on,

1:01:25

I could just move on. So I love that

1:01:27

you recommend that. And I highly recommend for people

1:01:30

who, especially if they do have

1:01:32

that propensity to merge with someone to be

1:01:34

on, you know, whether it's a celibacy journey

1:01:36

or a not dating journey or whatever the

1:01:38

thing is to bring that power back into

1:01:40

themselves. Yeah. I mean, that's everything

1:01:43

you shared. So powerful, cosmically cock blocked.

1:01:45

I definitely can't remember that one. Yeah.

1:01:48

It's interesting because we either repeat the pattern

1:01:50

so we can change it or what you're

1:01:52

inferring or saying is that

1:01:55

we're not going to be allowed to repeat it.

1:01:58

Like I think of all relationships. challenges

1:02:00

as being this

1:02:04

opportunity to learn finally. Like

1:02:07

finally, finally will it be

1:02:09

enough? It's interesting how as humans we usually have

1:02:11

to wait till it's so bad that we have

1:02:13

to change. And I think you

1:02:15

start after you've experienced a dark night

1:02:17

of the soul, after you've experienced someone

1:02:20

betraying you, leaving you. I think the things

1:02:22

that are not optional, like when we don't

1:02:25

choose a dark night, you know, when we

1:02:27

don't, those are actually the hardest. Because we're

1:02:30

holding two things that are

1:02:32

opposing. One is that I didn't choose

1:02:34

this. Like why would I, I'm

1:02:37

not choosing this pain. I'm not

1:02:39

choosing this discomfort. It's like when

1:02:41

someone passes away unexpectedly. You're like

1:02:43

thrust into an experience, into grief.

1:02:46

And we live in a culture that is really grief-phobic,

1:02:50

pain-phobic. You know, the message we send to people

1:02:53

is that if you're sad, there's something wrong with

1:02:55

you. If you have anxiety or depression, there's something

1:02:57

wrong with you. And I'm like,

1:02:59

oh, whoa, whoa, like these are the exact

1:03:01

responses that are appropriate to the environment you're

1:03:03

in, to the experiences you're having within your

1:03:05

body. And can we

1:03:07

actually turn to them from a place of curiosity?

1:03:12

And instead of brokenness from a place

1:03:14

of like, wow, this is coming

1:03:16

up for me. Wow, okay,

1:03:18

what is inviting me to do? Man,

1:03:21

but I think of relational patterns that

1:03:23

just cause us to be like, how

1:03:26

am I still doing this? And

1:03:28

that's when the pattern is such,

1:03:30

it's not here. It's actually in the

1:03:32

nervous system. It's familiar. And

1:03:34

so to actually choose something different,

1:03:37

which the sacred positive, which is

1:03:39

really about cultivating literal space and

1:03:42

figurative space between stimulus and

1:03:44

response. And because

1:03:46

you've waited so, you've endured the storm. You've

1:03:48

allowed all your greatest fears like Kai when she

1:03:50

was in her sacred positive between our relationship, which

1:03:53

is really what you call a breakup when you

1:03:55

get back together. Otherwise, it's just a breakup. But

1:03:57

she was saying that I thought I was

1:03:59

going to die. I wasn't sourcing energy

1:04:02

from anyone. I wasn't texting,

1:04:04

sexting, doing anything. And

1:04:06

I actually thought I was going to die, even though that

1:04:08

was not a relevant thought. But

1:04:10

if you've always depended on people,

1:04:12

always tried to source from

1:04:14

the male gaze, for example, is the example

1:04:17

she gives, then

1:04:19

who are you without the validation

1:04:21

of someone validating your worth through

1:04:23

their desire? And

1:04:25

you're just a soul. You're just

1:04:28

a person. And our book looks through

1:04:30

things like masks we wear, blind

1:04:33

spots that we have, because these

1:04:35

are all ways that we

1:04:38

don't reveal ourselves. And

1:04:40

it's like how you can't just reveal

1:04:42

yourself to anybody. You

1:04:45

start to learn how to do it with

1:04:47

people who are trusted in that journey who

1:04:49

want to reveal themselves too. And

1:04:52

like if we could use the frictions of

1:04:54

our masks, of our reactivity, of our blind

1:04:56

spots to actually say, I

1:04:59

see this. I see this in you. How

1:05:01

do we heal that? How do you heal the abandonment

1:05:03

of a father? How do you heal maybe the reactivity

1:05:05

of a mother? How do

1:05:07

you heal cultural wounds? What

1:05:10

a gift that is in relationship. Like

1:05:13

it's not like you've just been healing like that you

1:05:15

had a betrayal. You're like,

1:05:17

holy smokes. This isn't

1:05:19

just mine. That's

1:05:21

why it's taken. I

1:05:24

acknowledge your commitment to your transformation. Thank

1:05:27

you. And yeah, and I think

1:05:29

that there's these funny reels I

1:05:31

see sometimes. It's like what life feels like when you

1:05:33

don't have a crush on someone. And it's like so

1:05:35

boring and stuff. But I think a lot of us

1:05:37

even find our entertainment in it. The

1:05:40

entertainment is like, oh my God, did they

1:05:42

watch my stories? Like, oh my God, we

1:05:44

matched on this app. And

1:05:47

I can speak for women. It's like the fantasy.

1:05:49

We love it. And

1:05:51

it gives us this maybe like this little

1:05:53

pep in our step and like something to

1:05:56

feel like something to live for. But it's

1:05:58

like, but that's still the codependency. I

1:06:00

have something to live for if this

1:06:03

person that I don't even know might potentially

1:06:05

like me because it's still that Disney princess

1:06:07

within us that just wants to be chosen.

1:06:10

Right. And really we've taught people

1:06:12

that if you're not chosen,

1:06:15

there's not evidence of the recognition of your

1:06:17

value. Right. So even

1:06:19

relationally we say... And then we think this person,

1:06:21

you know, you who I have put

1:06:23

on the pedestal of like my value

1:06:26

of myself, if you don't choose me,

1:06:28

then this is evidence that my dad never looked

1:06:30

me. Like that is literally what we do. You get

1:06:32

the same. Exactly. You

1:06:34

know, and I always say to people that when

1:06:36

you lose something that you place your value in,

1:06:39

it's to remind you that it doesn't live there. You

1:06:42

know, and that opportunity to

1:06:44

recognize that when someone walks out of your

1:06:46

life or doesn't choose you or goes to

1:06:49

you, which not saying any of those things

1:06:51

aren't painful, but if

1:06:53

like every ounce of who you think

1:06:55

you are or your self worth or

1:06:57

your wellbeing lives in that, thank

1:07:00

God, because that is

1:07:03

an opportunity to recognize it does not.

1:07:05

And what a, what a huge pressure

1:07:07

for someone to hold to be

1:07:09

in relationship with you, that they

1:07:11

need to be in relationship with you for you

1:07:13

to have wellbeing and happiness. That's

1:07:16

something I don't want to carry. I want to contribute

1:07:18

to and be part of someone creating that. Like

1:07:20

my life is enormously better because

1:07:22

I have my wife in it and my

1:07:24

son, but it

1:07:27

doesn't complete me. Sorry, Jeremy.

1:07:29

But it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:32

And I think it's that, you

1:07:34

know, this idea that a lot of

1:07:36

us women have of like, I need

1:07:38

to be chosen and like

1:07:41

it's, and I will say part of it

1:07:43

does come from this like deep feminine yearning

1:07:45

of like wanting someone to like fully love

1:07:48

you and see you and hold you and

1:07:50

all parts of you and only want to

1:07:52

be with you. And that's such a beautiful

1:07:55

thing. Yeah. However, it's that

1:07:57

we then place it upon

1:07:59

someone. that hasn't even earned that

1:08:01

role in our lives. Right, we

1:08:04

give it to people without discernment. Exactly. Like are

1:08:06

they actually a good fit for that honor? Right,

1:08:09

and they say that women

1:08:11

start men at 100 and men start women

1:08:14

at zero. Have you heard this? I actually have,

1:08:16

I think. I really, I was very fascinated by

1:08:18

it. Which is so true. Which is true, too.

1:08:20

So it's like when, for a woman, let's say she matches with

1:08:22

someone on a dating app and they're talking little, she's like, I've

1:08:25

found the one. Right. Perfect, you look at it pictures

1:08:27

like a million times, you're like texting it to all

1:08:29

your friends, you're so excited, you're like, he's it, he's

1:08:31

perfect. You're planning he's gonna be my date at this

1:08:33

wedding and this is what her life's gonna look like

1:08:35

and my wedding dress and all the things. And

1:08:38

the man probably feels nothing towards you. It's

1:08:40

that you're a stranger to him, you know?

1:08:43

So just the difference there. So then the

1:08:45

woman like, he texted me back all these

1:08:47

things like they mean so much for the

1:08:49

guy, it's nothing. Then as the woman gets to know

1:08:51

the guy, she's like, oh, he's not perfect. And he says,

1:08:54

and he's like, it starts to go down. As he gets

1:08:56

to know her, he's like, oh, she's kinda cool. Oh yeah,

1:08:58

I kinda like her, this is that. And then it reaches

1:09:00

this point that like, the woman might be over him and

1:09:02

he's like, oh, I actually finally like you now. I

1:09:07

think those are those also represent

1:09:10

that one side is generally more anxious.

1:09:12

Like women are more prone to anxious and

1:09:15

men are more prone to avoidant because I definitely identify

1:09:17

with a start at 100 more. Like

1:09:20

I was more like when I met my wife, now

1:09:22

wife, but when I met her. Is she more avoidant?

1:09:25

Oh yeah, yeah, like so avoidant that when

1:09:27

I asked her to read the book attached,

1:09:29

she didn't read it. And

1:09:31

I was like, babe, you're gonna

1:09:33

actually laugh when you get to the part

1:09:35

on avoidance because the irony has not lost

1:09:37

upon me that you've avoided this book. We

1:09:40

talk about attachment styles in the book because

1:09:42

we found that framework is actually just incredibly

1:09:44

helpful, but we overlay how the nervous system

1:09:46

is actually correlated to that. Which I really

1:09:49

felt. I can't like two of us anxious people just find

1:09:51

each other, you know? I'm like, why can't you love our girls

1:09:53

with love of boys? Like why don't we have to find the

1:09:55

opposite? We have to because

1:09:57

one invalidates our experience of the world.

1:10:00

And two, it validates the nervous system's

1:10:02

memory of what love is. So

1:10:04

we can't because it wouldn't

1:10:06

allow us to heal. So

1:10:09

do you think that we're choosing

1:10:11

this subconsciously if I want

1:10:13

to heal or we're choosing this like,

1:10:15

oh, my mom or my dad was

1:10:17

never there for me. So this is how I know love

1:10:20

or both. Yeah. So I

1:10:22

don't think that the universe ever makes mistakes in

1:10:24

those categories. I don't think in any, I

1:10:26

would be careful. Don't deliver me any

1:10:28

new lessons to be gentle. But

1:10:31

I think it's that, no, we have

1:10:34

a yearning to heal

1:10:36

something that's unhealed. So we

1:10:38

are drawn to dynamics that allow us to

1:10:40

learn to trust ourselves again. And

1:10:43

my wound that was in relationship

1:10:45

1.0 with my wife was that

1:10:47

nobody chooses me. And was that your

1:10:49

relationship with your mother? Yeah, there was

1:10:51

like an element that we had,

1:10:54

I have a sister and a brother, I'm

1:10:56

the youngest. And there was an element that

1:10:58

one, my mom's

1:11:00

overwhelmed. She has three kids, she's studying, she's

1:11:02

got so much stuff. And

1:11:05

it was like, how do

1:11:07

I stand out? How do I get what

1:11:09

I need? And

1:11:11

what we really want is a regulated mother, but

1:11:14

the world is not regulating, let's be honest. And

1:11:16

the other part of it is that I experienced quite

1:11:18

a bit of betrayal in my teens in

1:11:21

relationship with infidelity from partners.

1:11:24

And so there was a lack

1:11:26

of trust in the feminine. And if we

1:11:28

get really deeply rooted, and I was working

1:11:30

with Mark Wolin, who's the

1:11:32

world's foremost expert on inherited trauma. And

1:11:35

he said, I need to know your birth story. Tell

1:11:38

it to me. And I was like, well, I

1:11:40

was born, I believe, five weeks early.

1:11:43

And I was in a neonatal ICU for 10

1:11:45

days. And he's like, ah. So

1:11:49

my mom didn't touch me for 10 days.

1:11:52

I was in an incubator. And

1:11:55

we got to the recognition that like the

1:11:58

deepest narrative that lived and

1:12:00

that lived in me was

1:12:02

I'm terrified of being left by the

1:12:04

feminine. And that wound,

1:12:09

when I think about my whole life till

1:12:12

it wasn't, till Relationship 2.0, till the

1:12:14

pause and then Relationship 2.0, it

1:12:17

was that there's just some level of they're

1:12:19

not loving it. They're not ready to do

1:12:21

what I'm ready to do. Just like martyr

1:12:23

to like, you don't choose me the way

1:12:25

I choose you. You don't think about love

1:12:27

the same way as I do, which I

1:12:30

think more women can probably relate to that

1:12:32

type of narrative, which is probably why I'm

1:12:34

good at translating it. And it

1:12:36

was when I finally chose myself, when

1:12:38

I finally got to the place where I

1:12:40

actually just from a somatic

1:12:42

sense, but like, I was just done

1:12:45

with being disappointed. I was

1:12:47

done with recognizing that it's actually not

1:12:49

the person I'm in relationships fault that

1:12:51

they're avoidant or unavailable or can't fully

1:12:54

choose it. It's my fault that I

1:12:56

keep choosing to consent

1:12:58

and participate in these dynamics. I'm trying

1:13:00

to change them my whole life. Meanwhile,

1:13:03

I'm missing all these women who are like,

1:13:06

I'm ready to choose you. And I'm like,

1:13:08

nah, that sounds that

1:13:10

means you might leave me. So

1:13:12

I'm just going to continue to stay with people who I

1:13:16

will just live in the

1:13:18

disappointment. I got to prepare myself for it.

1:13:20

It's inevitable. But I

1:13:22

hadn't actually learned that I needed to learn

1:13:24

how to say no fully full body

1:13:27

no, because that's

1:13:29

the only way I can actually get to an

1:13:31

authentic yes. That way, when

1:13:33

I choose a relationship, there's no there's

1:13:36

no wound that's living in the joys.

1:13:38

It's actually a full body like I

1:13:40

choose this, I'm committed to this. And

1:13:43

that's what made relationship 2.0 so

1:13:45

much more powerful, was it wasn't coming from

1:13:47

a place we need to complete these wounds.

1:13:50

We did that in relationship 1.0. It's like

1:13:52

now we're actually coming from a place of

1:13:55

of true choice. And that's what

1:13:57

relationship can create for us. That's what makes

1:14:00

all these thoughts about finances and all that

1:14:02

stuff relevant informationally. But what

1:14:04

we're really trying to do is, is

1:14:06

to get to clarity. And

1:14:08

clarity comes from being able to trust. So if

1:14:10

you can't, if you can't say no to what

1:14:12

is not it, or you can't give voice to

1:14:15

your experience about your fears, then

1:14:17

your choices are always with small print. Does

1:14:19

that make sense? Yeah. And

1:14:21

I wonder if our relationship

1:14:24

with the parent of the opposite gender to

1:14:26

us is what defines whether we're anxious or

1:14:28

avoidant. Maybe the reason why

1:14:30

so many women are anxious is because

1:14:32

they have had these distant

1:14:34

father figures just because of the way our society structured

1:14:37

that men have had to like go off and work

1:14:39

and not be there with the family. So

1:14:41

I think a lot of women are just

1:14:43

yearning like exactly how you were for your

1:14:45

mom for their dads, you know, and

1:14:47

then and then a lot of men

1:14:49

grew up seeing their fathers like that

1:14:52

and continue this avoidant behavior. You

1:14:54

know, there's, there's two camps on

1:14:56

this in my perspective, and I'm

1:14:59

not decided on which one yet.

1:15:02

But Harvall Hendricks and Helen Hunt

1:15:04

talk about an Amago, that's a match. What

1:15:07

Amago really means is that you're drawn to

1:15:10

somebody who wounds you in a similar way

1:15:13

as the parent who wounded you the most. So

1:15:16

it's not necessarily a gender thing. It's

1:15:18

just who wounded you the most. Absolutely. So

1:15:20

you know, they're sort of a famous, I

1:15:22

would say it's like famous narrative about relationship

1:15:24

is you're drawn to your opposite sex parent,

1:15:26

right? Something similar. But

1:15:29

there's another belief, which I I'm

1:15:32

playing with, I'm not really in certainty about it

1:15:34

yet. But it actually is ringing quite true. Now

1:15:36

that I'm a parent, which is

1:15:38

that it really is all about

1:15:40

mom in the very early

1:15:43

part of our life, which is true, developmentally anyways.

1:15:45

So the way that a child develops their

1:15:48

nervous system is by co-regulating with their mother.

1:15:51

So there's not really a clear

1:15:53

line of when a kid can start to regulate,

1:15:55

but let's say it's around three years old. So

1:15:57

before that, a kid actually has no ability to

1:15:59

self-regulate. They don't they can't do it. So

1:16:01

the way that they calm their system is through

1:16:04

a parent Generally mom

1:16:06

so even when a kid is sleeping beside their

1:16:09

mother an infant When

1:16:11

the kid starts to come out of deep

1:16:13

sleep, the mother starts to come out of

1:16:15

deep sleep They're communicating on a completely like

1:16:18

not like another level right? We're talking to

1:16:20

it's a whole other level The

1:16:23

way that the breast milk is created is

1:16:25

through a communication of what the baby needs

1:16:27

like it's wild to me the magic That

1:16:29

is happening there and you

1:16:31

think about things and this will be a

1:16:33

controversial sort of subject But sleep training sleep

1:16:36

training is not in any way we were

1:16:38

designed I was sleep trained, but

1:16:40

it's really saying you're this little baby who's

1:16:44

You don't know that you're in a modern world, right?

1:16:46

There's a baby monitor and all the things are happening

1:16:48

you're a baby in a cave and there's wolves out

1:16:50

there So if you cry you're trying

1:16:52

to get your mom to come get you and if mom

1:16:54

says I'm not going to I'm gonna train you I'm gonna

1:16:56

put my hand on you, but that I'm gonna still leave

1:16:59

you The baby is

1:17:01

learning when I cry no one comes so the

1:17:03

safest thing to do is not

1:17:05

cry now the majority of

1:17:07

us are sleep trained that Actually

1:17:10

was recommended by pediatricians

1:17:12

and and and that I

1:17:16

would say in large part there is an element of that

1:17:18

you think about and To

1:17:21

be fair the array and people will have lots I'm sure

1:17:23

in the comments will be lots of thoughts about the different

1:17:25

types of sleep training I interviewed an expert on this and

1:17:27

there she was like there is really no way To

1:17:30

like mitigate what's possible? But we also have

1:17:32

to have compassion and context for the world that

1:17:35

if you're a single mom with three kids

1:17:37

or you're like Overwhelmed parents it might be the

1:17:39

thing you need to do. So there's no

1:17:41

judgment on it It's just can we just bring

1:17:43

some compassion to the person who needs to

1:17:45

do that but also compassion to the child who

1:17:47

learns when I need something no one comes

1:17:49

and I think

1:17:52

if you add to that, especially in the United States

1:17:54

I'm Canadian and and it's a little different but I'm

1:17:56

now spend so much more time in the US and

1:17:58

so much more privy to it is

1:18:00

that maternity leave in the States is

1:18:03

ridiculous. It's like six

1:18:05

weeks, I think is minimum. But

1:18:08

in Canada, it's a year. So

1:18:11

I just think about how much we need

1:18:13

our mothers. And again, I think this

1:18:15

is a, we've said we

1:18:17

need women working because

1:18:19

that's equality. Sure, I can

1:18:22

understand that. But we've also

1:18:24

shamed the idea of a mother and

1:18:26

like a stay at home mom, you're not crushing it.

1:18:28

So there's like a woman can't win no matter which

1:18:30

way, because you'll get told you're

1:18:33

not being a boss and you'll be told you're

1:18:35

not being maternal. So there's like. And

1:18:37

then we've simultaneously made it so expensive that

1:18:39

a man's income at large can't provide for

1:18:41

family anymore. The way that it used to

1:18:43

be able to like 20, 30 years ago

1:18:46

on average, and then women are like, I would love to take

1:18:48

a year off. He's like, I would love for you to take

1:18:50

a year off too. I can't afford that. And then we're in

1:18:52

this conundrum. We end up in the same systems,

1:18:55

which if you think about it, which I've been playing

1:18:57

with this more, I'd be curious what the people think

1:18:59

in the comments, what you think is like, we're

1:19:02

sold this idea that it's feminism, that

1:19:05

it's like this reclamation of like, get

1:19:08

out there, work, crush it. But

1:19:10

really what you're doing is entering the system of

1:19:12

creating more and more production. So now we have

1:19:14

women in the workforce, which is great. I think

1:19:17

it's a beautiful thing. And

1:19:19

can we hold the complexities of this? Because

1:19:21

as you're saying, the

1:19:23

majority of to live today, you have to have

1:19:25

dual income. And

1:19:27

like now as a father, I'm just like, because

1:19:31

my father was married before he met my mom,

1:19:33

and he got divorced and then met my mom. He

1:19:36

was a single dad in the 70s. Like

1:19:39

that's wild to be a single. And I was talking

1:19:41

to him about it. He was like, it was hard.

1:19:45

And I'm like, I couldn't imagine when I see single

1:19:47

parents, I'm just like, this is why we need

1:19:49

community. You know, because

1:19:51

we're not meant to navigate divorces, breakups,

1:19:54

we're not meant to navigate these things

1:19:56

alone. We are communal beings. And

1:19:59

can we build communities? Because liberated love

1:20:01

just isn't about me

1:20:03

and my wife or you and your romantic

1:20:05

partner. It's a way of

1:20:07

being, which is saying, can we honor

1:20:09

the truth first? Can

1:20:11

through honoring the truth, can we honor each

1:20:13

other as individuals? Can

1:20:16

we then create a family community

1:20:19

connections that are about honoring people's

1:20:21

journeys? Because when someone

1:20:23

goes through a divorce and they're exiled from their family

1:20:25

or a pickup, which

1:20:28

is usually culturally and religiously based,

1:20:30

which are sometimes synonymous. What

1:20:33

we're saying is this culture does not

1:20:35

tolerate divorce. So don't even

1:20:37

think about it because look what happened to them.

1:20:40

But imagine a community that says to

1:20:44

even one or both people, tell

1:20:46

us about what you learned. What's

1:20:49

your experience? How could we love you? Because

1:20:52

I think the reason we don't excavate grief and

1:20:55

you know, you said it so beautifully at the

1:20:57

beginning that like you would never save

1:20:59

someone from a heartbreak now. And

1:21:01

I am a firm believer that

1:21:03

we try to save people from

1:21:05

feelings we don't know the value of. And

1:21:09

so imagine if we created

1:21:11

one relationships that are like, wow,

1:21:13

I love you no matter what happens with

1:21:15

us. And that being a lived truth, not

1:21:17

just words you use. And

1:21:20

then create families that are like that. And

1:21:23

then create communities that are like that. How

1:21:25

much wounding occurs because someone makes

1:21:28

a choice in life or is betrayed and

1:21:30

leaves a relationship and they're blamed for leaving

1:21:32

the relationship and not working on it. Again,

1:21:36

the community is saying, if

1:21:39

you want to keep relationships, you better

1:21:41

get in line. And

1:21:43

we are always asking this throughout our

1:21:46

lives. We're asking two questions, always, always,

1:21:48

always. Am I safe? And

1:21:51

like one of the greatest predictors of healthy corporate culture

1:21:53

is, am I safe? Am

1:21:55

I safe to be myself? And

1:21:58

number one always comes to mind. they had a number two. If

1:22:02

I have to give up number two for number one,

1:22:04

I almost always will till I

1:22:07

create a liberated relationship that's actually about

1:22:10

number two. Number two and one,

1:22:12

that actually the more you are you the

1:22:14

safer we are because we can trust each other

1:22:17

to tell the truth. So beautifully

1:22:19

said. And just for the last question,

1:22:22

I'm curious, how have you created more

1:22:24

of a sense of community around you

1:22:26

considering, you know, most of us don't

1:22:28

live on a block with all of

1:22:30

our friends. How have you created more

1:22:32

that sense of community, especially navigating parenthood?

1:22:35

Well, never has that become more needed

1:22:37

or apparent in my wife and I's

1:22:39

life. We're sort of living the questions.

1:22:41

I think it's Rilke or someone

1:22:43

who said that because, you know,

1:22:45

right now our families don't live right next

1:22:47

to us. We spend part of the year

1:22:49

with Kylie's family and some time with my

1:22:51

parents. But like I realized how

1:22:53

much we need each

1:22:55

other. Our modern societies have

1:22:58

said, go live in these places

1:23:01

in the city and away from nature.

1:23:04

And I now, you know, we see all these

1:23:07

memes and reels that are like, my greatest dream

1:23:09

is to buy a farm with friends. And

1:23:11

I'm like, that's not a joke. I

1:23:13

think we're all really living like that. And

1:23:15

I think we're really yearning for that is

1:23:18

like a return. And I think

1:23:20

digitally that's happening. It's like we are

1:23:23

exhausted from a nervous system perspective of

1:23:25

so much connectivity that's actually void of

1:23:27

like real true connection,

1:23:30

which is not to say. It's

1:23:32

voyeurism. It's not even, yeah, connection. Yeah,

1:23:34

which is not to minimize, obviously, the

1:23:36

beautiful things that can be realized through

1:23:38

technology. But to say both and like,

1:23:41

if we spend all our time scrolling, we're

1:23:43

not we're not being

1:23:45

with the world. We forget about the magic

1:23:48

of sitting by the ocean or sitting in

1:23:50

person and having a conversation. And I think

1:23:52

a lot of our anxieties are actually a

1:23:54

callback to that. They're like the canary in

1:23:56

the coal mine saying, Hey, get

1:23:58

back in to commune with

1:24:01

nature, with people, break

1:24:03

bread with people, break bread with people

1:24:05

you don't agree with. Now

1:24:07

we're just like, oh, my uncle voted for

1:24:09

this person, we don't invite him anymore. And

1:24:12

I'm like, invite him, don't let things

1:24:14

like politics or beliefs

1:24:16

about different things that we just all of

1:24:19

a sudden, we're not curious as much. And

1:24:22

it's much safer to just believe that

1:24:24

our ideology is the ideology. But

1:24:27

no human system got healthier

1:24:29

from a homogenous way of

1:24:31

thinking. Never, never.

1:24:34

Communities that have diverse thought

1:24:36

and diversity are always healthier.

1:24:39

I love that. Well, thank you so

1:24:41

much for sharing so much wisdom. This is

1:24:43

definitely an episode that people can continue to

1:24:45

come back to and where can listeners get

1:24:47

your new book, Liberated Love? Oh

1:24:49

my gosh, you can get our book wherever

1:24:51

you buy books. If you wanna support local

1:24:53

bookstores, you can go to bookshop.org. But

1:24:57

if you go to createthelove.com/Liberated Love, we

1:24:59

have all the links to all the

1:25:01

retailers, whichever one you wanna choose. And

1:25:03

there's also, if you put in your receipt, you

1:25:05

can get a copy of a meditation we created

1:25:07

with a workbook. And thanks so

1:25:09

much for having me. It's so great to

1:25:11

be able to be back in conversation with

1:25:13

you in person. Thank you. And

1:25:16

thank you to you who are listening or watching.

1:25:18

I just, I'm so grateful. I know you trade

1:25:20

time to hear me and I don't take

1:25:22

that for granted. We know it's gonna help

1:25:24

so many people. So thank you so much

1:25:27

for tuning in. If you love this episode,

1:25:29

share it on your Instagram story. This is

1:25:31

a really good way to spark these deeper

1:25:33

conversations with your friends, with maybe someone that

1:25:36

you're dating with your partner. The

1:25:38

only way that we can start to create

1:25:40

these relationships where we feel seen, heard, interdependent

1:25:43

while having a sense of self,

1:25:45

while also simultaneously going for what

1:25:47

I think a lot of us

1:25:49

want, more community and more support

1:25:51

is if we start the conversation. So

1:25:53

this is a really good episode to share and be

1:25:56

like, Hey, let's talk about it. Like, what did you

1:25:58

hear? What did I hear? And dive in. deeper

1:26:00

into these things that I feel like so

1:26:02

many of us we think on our own,

1:26:04

we don't necessarily then take that next step

1:26:06

of having that dialogue around. Be sure to

1:26:09

tag us on Instagram. You can find his

1:26:11

link and Instagram links below as well. And

1:26:13

I'm so excited to continue diving into this

1:26:15

journey with you. All right. I'll see you on the

1:26:17

next one.