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Fire and Casualty Insurance Company in affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. Should

2:00

be noting that as of this recording, we do

2:03

not have a verdict in the trial of Karen

2:05

Reed. So keep that in

2:07

mind and context when you're listening and what

2:09

we are aware of right now. We're going

2:11

to take a look back on the last

2:14

day of trial before closing arguments. And

2:17

then in our next segment here this

2:19

morning, we're going to be looking at closing

2:21

arguments and talking about

2:23

what was discussed. And

2:25

I don't know. When this verdict will

2:28

come in, Stacey, this

2:30

may be airing after there is one. We

2:34

do this quite often to try to guess how long

2:37

is it going to take? So as of right now,

2:39

we don't know how long,

2:41

how many hours of deliberation is it

2:43

going to take to get a verdict

2:45

in the trial of Karen Reed? Honestly,

2:50

if I were

2:52

one of the jury members, I would walk into

2:54

that room and go not guilty

2:57

let's get her on a DUI charge.

3:00

Let's get her on involuntary manslaughter and

3:03

go with that. So to me, before

3:06

you hit the record button, you said, you know, I

3:08

wouldn't be surprised if we got a verdict today when

3:10

they same day that they

3:12

started deliberations. I wouldn't be surprised

3:14

by that either. I would

3:16

be very, very surprised

3:18

if they went a couple days. I know

3:20

there's a lot of evidence, a lot of

3:23

testimony that took place. There was 31 days

3:26

of a trial, but I think these

3:28

people are exhausted and I don't think it's been

3:30

proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that she

3:32

did this. Yeah,

3:34

I think I agree pretty much with everything

3:37

you said there. I will say I thought

3:39

Lally did pretty good on closing arguments, but we'll

3:42

talk about that in our

3:44

next statement or in our next segment. So

3:48

you're here saying how long, how many

3:50

hours? I'm

3:54

going to go five hours. Okay. And we're about

3:56

like one in right now, right? Are we there

3:58

yet? Did they give it to the... the jury?

4:00

Okay. So we're

4:03

one and you're gonna say five. So that would put

4:05

us at today if they

4:07

stayed in the evening

4:09

hours. Okay.

4:14

What do you think? I'm

4:20

gonna guess and I know off the

4:22

air I just said it would be surprised if it happens today and

4:24

I would not be surprised if it happens today. But

4:27

I think the odds are more in favor of... I'm gonna

4:31

say tomorrow. So I'm

4:35

gonna say tomorrow around one o'clock in the

4:37

afternoon. So every many hours that would be

4:39

I'm gonna guesstimate probably that's like 10 hours

4:41

of deliberation or so. I'm gonna I don't

4:43

know it depends what time they get in

4:45

and what time one o'clock falls out. I

4:47

just feel like it's gonna be midday tomorrow.

4:51

Could be wrong. Tomorrow if you're gonna

4:53

sleep on it. Yeah and then tomorrow means

4:55

today if you're listening to this show. So

4:58

the 26 is what I'm talking about

5:00

because we're recording it in the evening hours

5:02

of the 25th. So

5:05

I'm gonna go with 10. I think when

5:08

we when we dealt with

5:10

Chad Daybell it was just

5:12

such a clear-cut case they

5:14

were back within what two

5:16

hours? Yeah. I think the

5:18

paperwork is gonna take longer

5:20

than deliberations. Yeah. And I

5:22

think that's what Daybell's was too. They had

5:24

a lot of paperwork to do. I don't

5:27

think there was any deliberation. They just went

5:29

guilty everybody. Okay good. Let's work on the

5:31

paperwork and it took two hours. I'm

5:34

thinking that's probably where we are unless

5:36

there's one holdout. I don't know and

5:38

I think there I mean there could

5:40

be here. I'm convinced. Yeah and I

5:42

will talk about the the

5:44

closing arguments here in our next segment but I

5:46

I don't know I have some thoughts on all

5:48

that. Let's wrap up the

5:50

last day of a trial though and what

5:53

happened there in the pivotal

5:55

moment in the Karen Reed murder trial

5:57

the defense arrested its case in chief

5:59

after presenting expert test testimony that challenges

6:01

the prosecution's narrative. Reid, a Mansfield woman,

6:03

is charged a second-degree murder and the

6:05

death of Boston police officer boyfriend John

6:07

O'Keefe, whose body was found outside of

6:09

Canton home in January of 2022. The

6:13

defense final witness, Dr. Daniel

6:15

Wolf, an expert

6:17

in accident reconstruction from ARCA,

6:19

testified that there is not

6:21

enough evidence to definitively determine

6:23

what happened to John O'Keefe.

6:27

O'Keefe, let's take a listen

6:30

to that testimony. What

6:33

was your conclusion following that

6:36

testing? What was your conclusion with regard to whether

6:40

or not it was consistent or inconsistent with

6:43

the damage to the truck and the tail

6:45

light? Was it consistent or inconsistent with making

6:47

contact with John O'Keefe's head? At

6:50

or above 15 miles an hour?

6:52

So strictly speaking to a damage

6:55

perspective, the 15-mile-an-hour interaction between the

6:57

hybrid head form and the test

6:59

tail lamp produced significantly more damage

7:02

than that of the subject vehicle.

7:04

So that indicates that, again,

7:07

the damage on the subject

7:10

tail light was less than that of the

7:12

test tail light. So if we were to,

7:16

if I were to ask you whether or not there would

7:18

be more or less damage to the tail light, if you

7:21

increase the speed to 24 miles an hour, what

7:24

was your conclusion? Well, you're

7:26

talking about significantly more kinetic

7:28

energy. So if you just think about it from,

7:31

again, a kinetic energy standpoint, kinetic

7:34

energy is equal to one half

7:36

times the mass and the

7:38

velocity squared. So if you're squaring that velocity and

7:40

you're going from 15 up to 24 miles per

7:42

hour, you're going to

7:44

get a significant amount of more energy

7:46

associated with that. I

7:48

could pull up my calculator, but you're probably looking

7:50

at two and a half more times energy

7:52

than the 15 mile an hour test.

7:55

Which means two and a half more times the damage to

7:57

the tail light? Certainly. Which you did not

7:59

see in your review. view of the materials, correct? Correct.

8:01

So what is your opinion or conclusion as to

8:04

whether or not the damage to the tail that

8:06

was caused by striking John O'Keefe's head? From

8:10

a damage standpoint, it was inconsistent.

8:13

Here you go. Prosecutor Adam Lally questioned

8:16

Wolf about the omission of O'Keefe's

8:18

shoe and hat at his

8:20

reconstruction report. Wolf acknowledged this, but maintained

8:23

that these omissions did not affect his

8:25

overall conclusions. Wolf described an experiment where

8:27

he and colleagues used an air cannon

8:30

to launch a cocktail glass tail light,

8:33

replicating the damage found on Reed's vehicle.

8:35

He explained, we aimed at a portion

8:37

of the tail light where

8:39

the clear and red met because that's

8:41

where the damage seemed to emanate from.

8:43

When asked about the respondents' hearing, Reed

8:46

said, I hit him three times. Wolf

8:48

admitted he was unaware of this, as

8:50

well as the presence of O'Keefe's DNA

8:52

on Reed's tail light, despite this Wolf

8:54

stood by his analysis, stating, absolutely not.

8:57

When asked if this new information

9:00

changed his conclusions, following Wolf, Dr.

9:02

Andrew Wrenchler, a

9:05

biochemical engineer, an

9:09

accident reconstructionist took the stand. Wrenchler's testimony

9:11

focused on the inconsistencies between the injuries

9:13

O'Keefe sustained and the damage to Reed's

9:16

SUV. The injury to O'Keefe's head was

9:18

not consistent with being struck by a

9:20

vehicle. In that scenario, there would be

9:22

damage to a person's spine, Wrenchler explained.

9:25

He further noted that a car driving

9:27

at 24 miles per hour would

9:30

cause significant damage to both the tail

9:32

light and O'Keefe's arm, which was

9:34

not observed in this case. I would

9:36

expect to see significant trauma, more so

9:38

than simply the abrasions diagnosed in this

9:40

case, Wrenchler said. Let's take a look

9:44

at that testimony. If

9:48

you were to presume, for purposes of my

9:50

question, that an

9:52

arm was struck by a

9:54

vehicle tail

9:57

light traveling 24 miles an hour, what were

9:59

there about? When do you expect

10:01

to see pattern

10:03

abrasions with no bruising? Objection.

10:06

Or just what would he expect to see? What

10:08

would you expect to see? So

10:11

again, I would expect to see

10:13

significant trauma to the skin, to the bone,

10:15

to the tendons. I

10:18

wouldn't expect to see just abrasion,

10:20

pattern abrasions. I mean, abrasion by

10:22

very definition means that it's trauma

10:24

to the skin which is created

10:27

through rubbing or grinding

10:29

or friction. So

10:31

it's basically something rubbing against the skin

10:33

that basically wears away that top layer

10:35

of skin. It's not blunt force trauma.

10:37

If you have blunt force trauma that

10:39

produces a contusion or a bruising. It's

10:42

not a laceration type injury or a

10:44

cutting injury that actually produces a cut

10:47

or significant laceration. It's really just

10:49

rubbing along the skin. So that

10:52

would be inconsistent if you have an arm

10:54

that's actually struck at 25 miles an hour.

10:57

You're going to have significantly greater

11:00

damage, especially if there's a tail light

11:02

that shatters. So

11:04

you have the tail light coming in, it's hitting

11:06

the arm and it's moving forward into the arm.

11:09

So if that actually cause

11:11

fracturing of the tail light,

11:13

then parts of that tail light are going

11:16

to be pushed into the arm and likely

11:18

embedded into the arm as the vehicle continues

11:20

forward and pushes the arm out of the

11:22

way. I

11:24

didn't see any of that. Basically just

11:27

superficial abrasions which all appear

11:29

to have a similar amount of force.

11:32

There's not a difference. That's the other thing.

11:34

If you had a tail light shatter and

11:36

explode on an arm, you would

11:38

have some areas where you would have

11:40

very deep contusions or lacerations, others lighter

11:43

areas. But when you look at the

11:45

abrasions that were noted in this case, they

11:47

all appear to be of the same force,

11:50

generally the same direction and the same

11:53

severity, which would be inconsistent, in my opinion,

11:55

with being struck at 25 miles an hour.

12:00

How do you think the jury's taking all of this? You

12:05

know, I don't I don't know I

12:08

these are the dudes of biomechanical engineer

12:10

he understands

12:12

movement I

12:15

I listened to him and thought yeah, he's

12:17

making some sense here Yeah, but again, I

12:20

keep wavering back and forth I

12:22

just this case has me so

12:24

confused and I keep saying it

12:26

we are never going to know what happened now to

12:28

that poor man We're never

12:30

gonna know a verdict. I don't care how

12:32

this jury comes back. Yeah, we're not gonna

12:34

know Yeah, the verdict is not going to

12:36

determine what actually happened to John O'Keefe no

12:39

matter that's that's just the thing I mean,

12:41

we don't know either way I

12:44

do not believe he was beat up in the house.

12:46

But as far as exactly how he died Out

12:51

there he was struck by Karen

12:54

which I'm saying could or could not be a possibility

12:57

It doesn't even require that and

12:59

it doesn't require any sort of you know fight

13:01

in the house either Could

13:04

be just somebody slipping and falling and hitting

13:06

their head getting back up, you know kind of

13:08

concussed falling back down again Laying

13:11

there in the snow eventually

13:13

dog comes over however

13:18

What gets me and why I think there likely

13:20

was some sort of a vehicle strike is the

13:23

Microscopic pieces that were found in his clothes

13:25

of the taillight. No, do I

13:27

think there's a possibility hard one to refute? Yeah, do

13:29

I think there's a possibility that? The

13:34

police planted more evidence yeah, I do

13:36

I think that that

13:38

could have actually happened and it's because

13:40

they I think Possibly they wanted to

13:42

really make sure that You

13:44

know Karen Reid was held responsible for what happened.

13:47

I Don't

13:49

think she purposely did any of it. I think

13:51

she was angry. I think that

13:53

there was a fit of rage there I could

13:55

see you know the Reverse

13:57

quick and another thing John Judging

14:00

by how angry she was on those phone

14:02

calls, if I fucking hate you, she'd drive

14:04

ahead like 20 some feet, whatever it was.

14:06

And then, well, it said one more thing

14:08

to him and he's back there. Hits

14:11

it in reverse to go do that. Says it,

14:14

maybe he is coming up, and

14:18

it just doesn't see it happening

14:21

and gets hits by the car. And

14:23

then she doesn't even realize that she

14:26

hit him and she's blackout drunk and doesn't remember any

14:28

of it. Yeah.

14:31

Again, I don't think it was on purpose at

14:33

all. I just think it was, you

14:36

got a very unhealthy individual looking at the

14:38

relationship the way that she is and you

14:40

got two drunk people too. Go ahead, I'm

14:43

sorry. No,

14:45

that's okay. There's a bunch of drunk people.

14:47

And I just wonder if at

14:49

the end of the day,

14:51

they all realize that they're all

14:53

shit-faced drunk. They're all law professionals.

14:55

They need to maybe

14:58

not be drunk and driving. Maybe

15:00

it was shit, one of our own

15:02

fucking died because we were so shit-faced

15:05

drunk. We need to make this look

15:07

like it was an accident instead of

15:09

we were really careless. And they probably

15:11

heard, and they heard the fucking phone

15:13

calls and they heard the, I hate

15:16

you and how awful

15:18

she was. And they kind of put more and more

15:20

together. She

15:22

was an awful girlfriend, it sounds like. I

15:24

mean, in her whole obsession of, I

15:27

need more time over the kids. I

15:30

mean, fuck you. She

15:33

just seems like she was an awful human

15:35

being and did not understand the value of

15:37

John raising those kids. But that

15:39

has nothing to do with murder. But

15:42

I could see his buddies hearing that shit

15:44

and being like, she's fucking going down. Kind

15:46

of like they're like, she's fucked because

15:49

they realized more of what

15:52

they perceived to be a real shitty human

15:55

being. And then

15:57

it was pretty clear cut that she.

15:59

did hit him, I think, but I

16:01

think they really wanted to weigh

16:05

the scale to really make it look like it,

16:07

which you can't do because then it looks like

16:09

a fucking conspiracy. I

16:11

think that's what happened. That's my

16:13

guess. I don't know. I think

16:15

Proctor was up to some shit. Yeah,

16:20

Proctor, but I kind of once this

16:22

is done, I want to find out

16:24

what happens to him. There's some sort

16:26

of a trial. I want us to

16:28

follow that because I need

16:30

some closure on the Proctor piece

16:33

of this. The rest of it, I kind of

16:35

like, okay, I'd love to hear the verdict. I

16:37

need to know what's going to happen to him

16:39

because he is the most unprofessional human being in

16:42

a law enforcement position. Yeah. Holy crap.

16:44

I mean, these are just my speculations.

16:46

I have no idea. That's my guess

16:49

if we're trying to play clue here.

16:52

But yeah, I just think it's

16:54

a lot of middle. There's no

16:56

absolute this way or that way. There's a lot

16:59

of kind of in the middles here that

17:01

all came together at different pieces and different places.

17:03

And that's what we have. And

17:05

that's why it's so confusing because it's nobody

17:08

wanted this to happen and nobody

17:10

remembers it happening. That's

17:12

the thing. Yeah. So

17:16

the defense also called Dr. Frank Sheridan,

17:18

a retired chief medical examiner who testified

17:20

about the injuries on O'Keefe's arm Sheridan,

17:22

who had conducted over 12,000

17:24

autopsies. He

17:27

stated that the cuts on O'Keefe's arm were

17:30

more consistent with a dog attack than

17:32

a vehicle strike. No bruising here. We

17:34

have linear abrasions without any bruising. It

17:36

does not look remotely like an impact

17:38

from a motor vehicle, he said. Sheridan

17:40

explained that the pattern and type of

17:43

abrasion suggested they were caused by an

17:45

animal's claws or teeth. He used a

17:47

laser pointer to highlight clusters of abrasions

17:49

on O'Keefe's arm describing how most appeared

17:51

to be claw marks. During cross, Lally

17:53

asked Sheridan about the absence of any

17:56

other injuries, typical of a vehicle strike

17:58

Sheridan reiterated that the The injuries observed

18:00

were inconsistent with being hit by a

18:02

vehicle and more aligned with a

18:05

dog attack. Let's take a look.

18:08

...was standing with his arm outstretched like

18:10

this and was struck by the rear

18:13

of an SUV

18:15

only in his arm at 24 miles per hour. Are

18:20

the injuries in the exhibit 19 consistent with

18:22

that scenario? No, I do not think

18:24

so. Can you describe that? Well,

18:27

as I think I've already mentioned before,

18:29

one thing that's not there, that should

18:32

be there given that idea, that scenario,

18:34

is there should be bruising, at least bruising,

18:36

if not perhaps even more than that, but

18:39

bruising for sure. Secondly,

18:42

just the appearance of these injuries, their

18:44

pattern if you want to just call

18:46

it that, the way they're distributed doesn't

18:48

seem to fit the idea

18:50

of the rear of a vehicle

18:52

being the impacting object. And

18:56

at 24 miles per hour, would you expect to

18:58

see fractures or breaks in the arm? You

19:02

could do. There

19:04

are other factors involved, just depending. It

19:07

depends on a lot of things, but it's possible. I'd

19:11

like to direct your attention to the injury that Mr.

19:13

O'Keefe sustained to his head. Do you recall that injury?

19:15

To the head? To the head. Yes,

19:18

yes. Could you describe that injury for

19:20

the jury? Well,

19:23

there were a few minor injuries on the face, but

19:26

the major injury, and indeed the main cause

19:28

of death, was an impact

19:31

to the back of the head, slightly

19:34

to the right of the midline of

19:36

the back of the head, where

19:38

there was an elaceration. Elaceration

19:41

is another type of blunt force trauma, but

19:44

this is elaceration, it's where the skin is

19:46

actually opened up or split, so

19:48

you get bleeding from elaceration. So

19:52

there was an elaceration, as I said, in the back

19:54

of the scalp, in what's called the occipital

19:56

area. And beneath

19:59

that... when the skin was

20:02

moved away as part of the autopsy,

20:07

there was extensive bruising, hemorrhage in other

20:09

words, in the skull at that same

20:11

point. There was

20:13

a fracture that started at that

20:16

point in the skull but

20:19

traveled all the way forward to

20:21

the frontal areas of the skull. So

20:25

I say, have the impact,

20:27

the impact of sight is clear because

20:29

as I said, you got the laceration. That's

20:32

where the impact was. So

20:36

you have the impact with the skull,

20:39

hemorrhage there and the

20:41

skull fractures. Then the

20:43

brain itself had

20:45

injuries, significant injuries. First

20:49

of all, there was bleeding on the surface of the

20:51

brain and that's

20:53

a very common in situations like

20:55

this. Luke,

21:00

I am your father. The gentleman has

21:02

an upper respiratory issue of some sort

21:05

but he's an older man. I

21:07

gave him a little leeway but he sounds

21:09

like he belongs in Harry Potter. Yeah,

21:12

I mean, it did kind of seem like

21:14

someone else. Or Star Wars. Yeah, I was

21:16

thinking that like it was or a horror

21:18

movie. I could see this being a gentleman

21:20

on Halloween or something in the trial of

21:22

Michael Myers. I don't know. Yeah,

21:26

so he was on the stand. Yeah,

21:29

he's also noted that there was no

21:31

canine DNA found in O'Keefe's arm but

21:34

that did not alter his professional opinion.

21:38

I'm kind of not quite understanding

21:40

that of no

21:42

canine DNA if he was attacked

21:45

by a dog. I

21:48

mean, I would think you'd have something but

21:51

there is a pig DNA. So that does make

21:53

a little more sense. I don't know. Yes. You're

21:57

in the vet world. It's a wild pig. If

21:59

you get, not that was. a wild pig, but

22:01

no, I'm thinking like pig treats that dogs eat.

22:04

And then it was transferred to him like secondhand

22:06

DNA from the pig treat that the dog just

22:08

ate. And then, you know, that's how it went

22:10

there. Is

22:14

their DNA always deposited in a

22:16

bite? I would think in this,

22:19

there's saliva and especially a

22:21

dog that is. He

22:24

is excited. I think you're going

22:26

to see saliva. So that's

22:29

a bit confusing, but I

22:32

don't know. You know, by the time

22:34

they got to him, was

22:36

the snow, did it

22:38

melt and it got washed away? I don't know.

22:40

It may not be a dog bite at all.

22:45

True. Yeah, I don't know. I

22:48

really don't. But the type of bites

22:50

look like it was from something big.

22:53

And I know you and I talked

22:55

about a coyote yesterday. The coyote is

22:57

not necessarily big. They

23:01

can be. They certainly

23:03

can be. We

23:05

got some down here that looked like wolves. Okay.

23:10

Um, I don't know how they are over there.

23:12

And shepherd maybe clocking in at 80, 90 pounds.

23:16

I don't think a coyote is 80, 90 pounds. I

23:18

do. Really?

23:21

Yeah. I've seen some that are certainly 80, 90

23:23

pounds. Yeah. Dear

23:26

God, what are they eating? Children.

23:30

Okay. No,

23:34

I don't know, but they certainly. What's up coyote

23:36

weight. Yeah. I've seen them that big without a

23:38

doubt. Well,

23:41

if you, if you believe national geographic, they

23:43

say 20 to 50 pounds. Okay.

23:47

Or 18 to 44. Wolf is

23:50

66 to 180. Yeah.

23:53

If it's a wolf, maybe. I think we,

23:55

I don't know. Maybe I'm completely off on

23:57

this, but I think we have some wolves

23:59

that may interming. with the coyote population and

24:02

you get hybrid kind of things. I don't doubt that a bit.

24:04

Is that a thing? Half coyote, half

24:06

wolf? I

24:10

don't know if those two genuses

24:13

can or kingdoms or cow wolf. I'm

24:15

digging into my DNA knowledge. Cow wolf

24:17

is a hybrid described from coyotes

24:21

and wolves.

24:27

It exists. Yeah, coy wolf. Yeah,

24:32

I assume they can reproduce. I don't

24:34

know if they can or not, but

24:37

somebody's having fun and making cow wolves or

24:41

coy wolves. Yeah. If

24:44

that's really a thing, it looks like they

24:46

occur in Ontario, Quebec,

24:51

Alaska. So they're

24:53

more of a Northern. Okay. Hard

24:56

to say. I actually vaccinated a

24:58

wolf once. It scared the living hell

25:01

out of me. Yeah. Somebody

25:03

in where I live, they actually

25:05

had a wolf as a pet

25:07

and it was a very large

25:09

animal, very large. And

25:12

we sedated it and vaccinated it and

25:15

sent it down its way. It was,

25:17

you know, we sedated because we don't

25:19

trust them. They're very

25:21

big and they're not domesticated.

25:23

Yeah. So, you know,

25:26

they want to eat you, they will. I

25:28

guess I'm completely wrong on the poundage

25:31

of coyotes. Yeah. Like

25:34

a record. What I've seen them in my

25:36

neighborhood. They're small. A record one was 75

25:38

pounds. So I guess

25:40

I thought I don't know. I mainly see

25:42

them from a distance. So

25:45

they look I guess bigger to me than

25:47

I I guess I think they are because

25:49

they're usually pretty far out there. No,

25:53

it doesn't mean that there wasn't some neighborhood

25:55

dog that came along and decided to start

25:57

chomping on him for some reason. Sure. He

25:59

had a bone to pick with them or

26:01

who knows that's that that

26:04

piece of evidence we

26:06

aren't gonna get an answer to and I

26:08

don't we just aren't yeah I I'm

26:10

gonna go with wildlife of some sort I just don't

26:13

know what and I

26:15

don't know that it really is anything to do with his

26:17

death I think

26:19

it is more so body in the road

26:21

or near the road animal

26:23

finds it and I that's my guess

26:25

I don't know I just I all

26:28

right our next segment we're gonna take a

26:31

look at the closing arguments and talk about

26:33

that stick around want to listen ad-free want

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