0:00

And I remember just flying in that night as the Chunuk descended.

0:04

And then as soon as we jumped out, I just remember seeing from my corner of my eye in the woods, we

0:09

had Army Special Forces taking positions to protect us.

0:14

I'm like, oh, my God.

0:17

Three weeks ago, I was stayed at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan, right?

0:21

And now I'm on a 7200 ft top of the mountain.

0:25

Like, what is going on? A civilian job and serving our country in

0:31

the United States Army Reserves with training deployments

0:34

each year ranging anywhere from weeks to months.

0:37

In other words, going back to civilian life.

0:39

No longterm commitment, though. The Navy has come to rely on those

0:43

with nonmilitary careers to help staff its missions.

1:03

Welcome to heroes behind headlines.

1:06

I'm your host, Ralph Pazulo.

1:09

Our guest today is Navy Reserve Lieutenant Commander Tim Sanchez.

1:14

Tim is currently a Senior Director at Robertson Ryan Investments.

1:19

Prior to that, he was the Director of

1:21

Global Listings at the New York Stock Exchange.

1:25

Also for the past 20 years, he's been

1:27

a commissioned officer in the US Navy Reserves.

1:32

Since 911, Tim has been recalled to active duty

1:35

three times and deployed to Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Bahrain.

1:41

Today he's going to talk about the challenges

1:43

of serving in the Reserves and the shocking

1:46

things he discovered while being deployed as a

1:48

Supply Corps officer in Afghanistan in 2012.

1:52

We're honored to welcome Navy Reserve Lieutenant Commander

1:56

Tim Sanchez as today's hero behind the headlines.

2:06

I continue to serve in the Navy Reserve

2:08

as the rank of Lieutenant Commander today.

2:11

Yeah, still doing my monthly duty. Fantastic.

2:16

Two or three weeks a year, active duty, 911.

2:21

Ralph was really the catalyst that

2:23

made me want to do something.

2:25

And so when I woke up and saw what

2:28

was taking place, I just remember getting so emotional,

2:31

like a lot of Americans and angry and sad.

2:35

And then I saw the buildings collapse. And I remember I told my wife at the

2:40

time, I'm like, I got to do something.

2:42

I said, I don't know what it is, but I'm just not going to sit back.

2:47

Like, this is too close to home. I want to do something and go back even further.

2:52

When I was a freshman in college, I

2:55

wanted to join the US Army ROTC Program.

3:00

My parents were dead set against it, but I wanted to

3:05

join as an officer because I had a lot of family members that have served, but none of them went to college

3:11

and they all served in the enlisted ranks.

3:13

Nothing wrong with that. It's honorable service, but I just

3:17

wanted to do something different. I want to be an officer.

3:20

So that didn't work out my freshman year, but had always

3:22

been in the back of my mind, I wanted to serve.

3:25

And then when 911 occurred, that was it.

3:28

Then I approached the various branches and I was very

3:32

adamant that I wanted to seek out an officer's commission,

3:36

but not necessarily walk away from my career.

3:40

So that's what I was looking for. Ralph I wanted to serve as an officer.

3:43

The Navy came back, and given my business

3:46

background and the fact that I had an MBA, they said, look, you would be great.

3:50

We can give you a direct commission. We'll put you into the Logistics Supply program.

3:58

And I took it. So I was never a prior active

4:02

duty officer, was always in the reserve.

4:05

But it allowed me to continue to support my

4:08

family, pursue my civilian career, but at the same

4:12

time build a career in the Navy.

4:15

In 2006, I volunteered for my first deployment, went

4:20

out to Kuwait, spent a little time in Iraq, but mostly Kuwait, in more of a support role.

4:27

And then in 2012, I sat down with my wife at the time,

4:32

and I said, you know, I really feel like I feel guilty.

4:36

I said, There are a lot of my friends that are going out on multiple tours, and here I am

4:40

making a pretty good living, comfortable back home.

4:43

I want to do something again. And she was on board, to her credit,

4:47

she never stopped me, never created undue burden

4:52

or encouraged me not to go. She was very supportive.

4:56

So I went to the detailing office and I

4:58

said, Look, I want to volunteer again, but I

5:01

want to do something that's going to be meaningful.

5:03

I don't want to be in a support role. Like, I want to do something that I can look

5:06

back on later in life and be proud of.

5:09

And they said, Great, Afghanistan. I said, all right, well, I'll do it.

5:13

But then they told me, they said, you're going to be at Bajrama Base.

5:19

It's a massive facility. They call it a Fob Forward Operating Base,

5:24

and there's 500 people that live there.

5:27

It's like a city. You'll be safe. You'll never have to leave.

5:31

There'll be an occasional martyr attack, but it

5:35

never, ever hits anybody, and you'll be fine.

5:39

So that was that. I was working for the New York Stock Exchange at the time.

5:43

In New York? Well, two offices, one in New York.

5:46

I worked out of a booth on the floor, and then I worked out of the Menlo Park

5:51

office in the Bay Area and Global Listings.

5:53

So I worked for the exchange itself.

5:56

And my role was to basically it was

6:00

twofold manage the relationships with the C suite

6:04

executives of West Coast listed companies.

6:08

I got to hopknow with a lot of important people

6:10

throughout my career at the exchange, and then I would

6:13

also go after the private companies that were going to

6:15

go public and persuade them to list on the New

6:18

York Stock Exchange as opposed to Nasdaq.

6:21

So it was a very comfy, high visibility position.

6:25

Paid well, had a good, comfortable life.

6:29

But I informed the exchange and the CEO of

6:32

the time, Duncan Nederauer, to his credit, he was

6:35

probably the biggest supporter of veterans on Wall Street.

6:38

Fantastic. Yeah, he was a huge supporter.

6:41

So he was very supportive of my pending deployment.

6:45

But I still had no idea what I was going to do.

6:47

All I knew was it was going to be Afghanistan.

6:50

So the day came, I said my goodbyes, I packed my gear

6:53

and left my wife and kids and was sent to Fort Jackson.

6:58

Because at the time, if you were going into

7:01

a combat environment, the Navy would send their enlisted

7:05

sailors and officers to Fort Jackson, and the army

7:10

would own you for 19 days.

7:13

And they taught you everything you need to know.

7:17

Well, that's what they told us. The reality is you're not going to

7:20

learn a lot in 19 days. Right. But it was the army who trained us.

7:23

And up until our fly out date, I had

7:28

no idea what I was going to be doing. Wow.

7:32

It was kept a secret. And then a few hours before we left,

7:35

I was told, oh, your orders were modified.

7:38

You're going to Camp Integrity in Afghanistan.

7:42

So, of course I'm looking at my phone.

7:44

Where the hell is Camp Integrity? I couldn't find anything.

7:48

The only thing I could find was Camp Integrity Blackwater Academy.

7:52

I'm like, oh, shoot, this isn't what I signed up for.

8:00

So we fly out. It's like a 24 hours trip.

8:03

They took us from South Carolina to

8:08

Georgia I don't know where in Europe.

8:10

And finally we arrive in Kazakhstan for a layover

8:13

for three days at an Air Force base there. And then we flew into Canadahar.

8:18

I eventually get to Cabo, and I'm greeted by

8:24

four of my now brothers for life who were

8:27

there to pick me up at the airport. And all I remember was they

8:31

said, okay, here's your ammo. Lock and load.

8:33

If something goes down, you're responsible for this quad of the vehicle. You're going to get out.

8:39

We're going to set a perimeter. This is our crash bag.

8:42

If somebody gets hurt, this is the medical.

8:44

And I'm like, Wait, what's going on?

8:47

Yeah, what am I doing here?

8:50

So within minutes, we're outside the wire in

8:53

a convoy, and I'm like, oh, my God.

8:56

This is not what I had in mind.

8:59

So I show up at Camp Integrity. And long story short, I was attached to Sajida.

9:04

A because the military loves acronyms.

9:07

The Special Operations Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

9:11

It's a fancy name for the Special Ops

9:15

Command in Afghanistan, led by a two star.

9:19

And so that was where the United States

9:23

orchestrated and executed their campaign involving our US.

9:29

Special Forces, army Special Forces or Navy Seals?

9:32

So it's fascinating. It's fascinating.

9:35

It was a small four acre compound.

9:37

We had other government agencies working there.

9:42

I was able to get a firsthand look at what our best and brightest do within

9:48

the soft community, and it was fascinating.

9:51

So that was my journey to Afghanistan.

9:54

I just remember being overcome with fear day one.

9:57

I wasn't going to admit it to anybody. I don't think anybody ever does.

10:00

But I was a strange place.

10:04

Yeah, absolutely. And Camp Integrity, it turns out, was what, exactly?

10:10

So Camp Integrity was what we like

10:12

to describe as a secret squirrel compound.

10:15

There are some compounds we could talk about

10:19

it now because we're no longer in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there are certain compounds that

10:24

not all of the military has access to.

10:26

These are the most secret bases within

10:31

a base where our Special Forces Special

10:34

Operations conduct their piece of the war.

10:38

So Camp Integrity was a camp that was actually

10:41

leased by the Department of Defense from a company

10:46

at the time called Academy, which was formerly Blackwater.

10:52

When I figured that out, I thought, this is strange.

10:56

Yeah. What the hell's going on? Why can't we be on a regular basis?

11:00

Was it part of a bigger base? No, that was completely separate.

11:04

No, it was off of there's this road

11:08

on the north side of Kabul International.

11:11

Kaya and we were on the outskirts

11:16

of Kabul International in a standalone compound.

11:21

It was a literal square.

11:25

I think it was maybe two acres

11:28

surrounded by these very high walls.

11:31

Compared to other bases, the facilities

11:34

and the accommodations were really nice.

11:36

I'm not going to lie. The rooms that we lived in were incredible.

11:41

But it was like a small, little

11:43

prison compound and surrounded by guard towers.

11:49

But the guards weren't our people.

11:51

They were Afghan contractors.

11:54

Which was terrifying, of course, because you were

11:59

a sitting duck whenever you walked around.

12:02

You don't know these people. You don't know them.

12:04

And in fact, after I left, it turns out that

12:06

they did a biometric scrub of the phones and whatnot,

12:11

and some of the guards that the head guard was

12:14

communicating with the Taliban and feeding them a lot of

12:18

critical, sensitive information about the movement of the 200 or

12:23

so of us that lived inside that camp. Wow.

12:27

And sure enough, I think it was within 30 days after I ended up leaving Afghanistan, the camp was hit.

12:34

Tim landed in Afghanistan in 2012 at the height of

12:37

the surge in US forces ordered by President Barack Obama.

12:42

Within weeks, he went from an executive on

12:45

Wall Street to working as a supply officer

12:47

on a secret base in Afghanistan.

12:50

The transition was abrupt in a number of ways.

12:54

He went from the one week of training

12:56

he received every month as a Navy reservist

12:59

to being deployed in an active war zone.

13:02

Because of the dramatic uptick in US troops

13:05

on the ground, his services were needed.

13:08

According to the Navy, and I quote, as a

13:11

reservist, there is no formula for determining who will

13:14

deploy or when, where or for how long.

13:18

It comes down to what occupational, specialties and operational

13:22

units are needed at any given time, and who

13:26

is best qualified and ready to serve those needs.

13:29

End quote. When members of the Navy Reserve get deployed,

13:34

they are considered to be on active duty

13:36

and earn active duty pay and benefits.

13:39

Typically, Navy reservists are called up

13:42

every five years for a year.

13:44

For someone like Tim, who worked on Wall Street, the

13:48

money he was making as a reservist didn't come close

13:51

to paying the taxes on a civilian salary.

13:54

But like many reservists in the army,

13:56

navy, Air Force, Coast Guard and Marines,

13:59

he wasn't doing it for the money.

14:03

And the biggest threat was blue on green or green

14:06

on blue attacks, where you're walking right next to an

14:11

Afghan soldier and he just decides at that moment that

14:17

he's going to take out as many people as he can because the Taliban have already paid his family off.

14:23

And so he knows his family's set for life and

14:25

he's going to be a martyr, so he's going to

14:27

turn his Aka on the closest soldiers next to him

14:32

and take them out as he goes out.

14:34

And that happened. Yeah, there were a lot of those incidents.

14:37

Yes, a lot of them were reported and I'm sure a lot more weren't reported. Yeah, absolutely.

14:42

Yeah. So it was an eye opener from day one.

14:45

And then within three days after I was

14:49

able to get my bearings and adjusted the time I was working in the military.

14:53

You have the numbered departments. Right.

14:57

It was a joint. So J One through nine, I was in J four.

15:03

The logistics sell. And I remember the colonel who was ahead in

15:08

charge of J Four, he said, oh, Sanchez, you're

15:12

going to be working closely with General Bulldog and

15:17

he's heading up the ALP effort in Afghanistan.

15:21

I'm like, what is that? Don't worry about it.

15:24

You'll get up to speed, you're going to help out with logistics.

15:29

So I quickly learned that ALP stood for Afghan Local Police.

15:33

And this was an initiative started by General Don Bulldog.

15:36

And his idea was you can't rely

15:42

on the Afghan National Army to govern

15:46

Afghanistan because Afghanistan is a tribal land.

15:50

They respect nation, state construct. Right.

15:53

So it's all about the tribe that you belong to.

15:56

Loyalty is with the tribe, not to borders or

15:59

to a flag or an army or constitution.

16:03

And so the 300,000 troops at the Afghan National Army,

16:06

a lot of them were pulled from the North Kabul

16:09

area, from the heavy postune areas, and it wasn't working

16:15

because you can't put them into the other parts of

16:18

the country where they're not part of the trial.

16:20

So the ALP was the solution.

16:23

It's where we would go in and find local

16:26

villagers with the blessing of the elders, draft them

16:30

into the Afghan Local Police, which essentially was a

16:33

militia, and they would be the first line of

16:35

defense against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

16:37

And they would guard their village in province, but we would equip them, we

16:41

would outfit them, equip them, arm them.

16:44

But it was a project that fell

16:46

into the lap of Special Operations.

16:50

So Army Special Forces and Navy Seals were responsible

16:53

for going around the country to these villages and

16:56

recruiting these young men and then training them.

17:02

And they had the highest casualty rate. These guys were getting mowed down left and right.

17:07

I bet they were the first line of defense.

17:11

But Ralph, within three days, I was on

17:13

a blackhawk Chinook helicopter C 130 flying around.

17:17

I had seen all four corners of

17:20

Afghanistan in my first two weeks wow.

17:24

Which is unheard of for a reservist,

17:27

especially someone who's not a combat guy.

17:30

But here we were being dropped into these small bases.

17:34

I remember one was perched on the

17:37

side of a mountain at the 7200 foot elevation overlooking the Pakistani border.

17:43

And I remember just flying in that night as the

17:46

chunk of descended and the flood light came on.

17:51

And we had, like, two minutes to unload 20 people.

17:55

The helicopter kept hovering.

17:57

And then as soon as we jumped out, I just remember seeing from my corner of my eye in the woods, we

18:04

had Army Special Forces taking positions to protect us.

18:09

I was like, oh, my God.

18:12

Three weeks ago, I was stayed at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan. Right.

18:16

And now I'm on a 7200 foot top of a mountain.

18:21

Like, what is going on?

18:23

Yeah, it was fascinating.

18:26

So whenever we would travel around to these bases, we

18:32

made sure that the ALP uniforms would show up.

18:35

We would give these guys some cash to pay for food.

18:40

This is their first paycheck. And then we would have these containers that

18:44

would show up with the weapons container.

18:48

20 foot containers full of AK, forty seven

18:51

S and PKMS with all of the ammo.

18:55

And I was responsible for coordinating this.

18:58

I was essentially an arms dealer, and it was surreal.

19:02

Where were the arms coming from?

19:04

It's a good question. To this day, I'm not really sure.

19:07

I didn't ask the question. But they were always AKS and always AKS and PKMS.

19:14

Those were the weapons that we armed the Afghan Local Police with by the thousands.

19:20

We would pop these containers open, and then

19:22

you walk in, and it was just a

19:26

treasure trove of weapons and ammo.

19:28

And these containers will show up in these small villages.

19:31

And did this Afghan National

19:33

Police have a command structure? They did.

19:36

So there was a general in Kabul who

19:38

was the head of this command structure.

19:44

And then he had other colonels around the country that

19:49

were hand picked to head up the provincial command.

19:54

And then it kind of fell down to the local village level.

19:59

But it was just so corrupt. I mean, we would go into some of

20:02

these villages, and I can remember showing up

20:06

somewhere out by Hurrah or Farah in the

20:09

southwest corner of Afghanistan near the Iranian border.

20:15

I remember the local villagers set up this meeting.

20:18

We had these elders show up and the Colonel, who

20:21

was like, the man showed up late with his entourage.

20:26

Three white Toyota trucks roll up into the compound

20:30

and the guy is high as a kite. I mean, he was on that hash.

20:36

And in that particular situation, like a week later,

20:41

all of the weapons and ammo we gave them, because we're able to trace the shells during one

20:47

skirmish, it turns out the Taliban were using the

20:51

weapons that we gave them. Right. That was one thing about Afghanistan, one thing

20:56

I could say about the Iraqi insurgency, it

20:59

was religious base and they were devout.

21:02

I'm not saying I agree with their beliefs, but you could

21:05

tell people were dedicated to one side or the other.

21:09

Absolutely. It was a conviction they held based on

21:13

their interpretation of the Quran in Afghanistan. No.

21:19

They'll sell their mother to the highest bidder.

21:23

As a J Force staff officer assigned to the

21:26

Special Operations Joint Task Force in Afghanistan, tim helped

21:30

manage the $180,000,000 budget for arming and supplying the

21:35

Afghan Local Police, or ALP, a force established by

21:40

US Army Special Forces in 2010 to serve as

21:44

a locally based village or community selfdefense force.

21:48

The ALP units were recruited from local

21:51

communities of key areas where Afghan government

21:54

influence or control was minimal.

21:57

The recruits were selected and vetted by the

22:00

villager community leaders and were also screened by

22:03

the Afghan National Police and Ministry of Interior.

22:07

In practice, however, Tim found a situation that was

22:10

less than ideal and one that he found shocking.

22:14

Specifically the fact that ALP units were being armed

22:18

with foreign made weapons like AK 47 and PKM

22:23

machine guns that would later end up in the

22:26

hands of the enemy, the Taliban.

22:29

What was even more disturbing to them

22:31

was even though US officers knew this

22:34

was taking place, they let it continue.

22:37

It sounds incredible, but we were,

22:40

in effect, arming our enemy.

22:44

I think the mistake we made as a country, this is above

22:48

my pay grade, but I'm entitled to have my own opinion.

22:50

Sure. I think we went in with the American mindset,

22:56

thinking that people in that part of the world

22:58

would see things or process things the way we

23:02

do, and that just wasn't the case.

23:05

And anybody, if they're being completely honest with

23:07

themselves and set aside their political label, if

23:12

they've served in Afghanistan, I'm going to talk

23:15

about the big bases and never left. But if they actually have been outside of

23:18

the wire and really spent time with locals,

23:23

local village elders and soldiers and the police

23:27

and civilians, they would agree that Afghanistan, the

23:32

experiment was never going to work. It was doomed to fail.

23:35

It was just a matter of time. And the only thing that kept it alive

23:38

for 20 years was the fact that we

23:40

pumped the trillion dollars into the country.

23:42

So, of course, the decision makers out there didn't want

23:45

to stop that gravy train, so they kept it alive.

23:48

But they were never going to stand on their own.

23:50

2ft and two weeks into my deployment

23:53

there, I quickly figured that out. This is a waste of time. Yes.

23:57

So here we are, we've got this whole program where

23:59

we're training these people and we're giving them arms and

24:02

two weeks later those arms are being aimed at us

24:06

in battle, the arms that we gave them.

24:10

So why don't we just scrap the whole

24:13

program and say, hey guys, this isn't working.

24:18

But instead, I'm sure we continued it.

24:20

We absolutely continued it. And really all we were doing is we

24:23

were creating and arming these militias that were

24:28

only growing stronger in their determination to beat

24:32

us and kick us out of their country. And so we gave them everything, uniforms,

24:38

weapons, ammo, paid their salaries, housed them.

24:42

We did all these things and we were just building up a

24:45

force that was going to turn around and try to kill us.

24:50

So it was just a losing proposition to begin with.

24:56

But that's what I did while I was out there.

25:00

And I like to think that I will say that I did

25:04

meet a lot of great people, a lot of great men. Never met women because you're not allowed

25:07

to meet with the women out there. But I worked with incredible local Afghan interpreters,

25:12

some local colonels and majors who were really

25:17

good people who want the same thing that

25:22

we want for our own families. I want to live in peace, I want to be

25:26

able to provide for my family and I want them

25:28

to have a better life than what I had.

25:30

And Afghanistan had been in war for forever. Yeah.

25:34

They never really had a time to speak Alexander the Great. Yeah.

25:38

And that's all they've known. That was what motivated me to keep me going.

25:45

Every day while I was out there is, OK, I've encountered some good guys.

25:50

Let's just try to see if we can help them.

25:54

So you were surrounded by Special Operators, right.

25:59

How many of them did you feel understood that as well?

26:03

Or was it 100%? 100%.

26:06

I found in my time and I've served

26:09

in three different locations in the Middle East.

26:12

By far, our Special Operators are the most

26:17

intelligent, well read, knowledgeable, professional soldiers, sailors that

26:25

we have in the Department of Defense. They're amazing.

26:28

Don't get me wrong, the trigger pullers

26:30

probably killed a lot of bad guys in their time, but incredibly intellectual.

26:35

And they had a firm grasp of what they were up against.

26:39

And many of them, as we were smoking cigars

26:41

late at night, would share their honest opinions.

26:45

But they were professional fighters,

26:49

so they did their job. And it just reminds me of one other aspect of my

26:54

experience that first month, especially in the Navy, I can only

26:59

speak for the Navy, but there are a lot of sailors,

27:04

officers who want to be Navy Seals, but there are only

27:08

a few navy Seals to get to where the Trident and

27:11

the Navy Seals, like the Army Special Forces community.

27:15

It's a fraternity. It's a special fraternity.

27:17

In my first month, they did not accept me.

27:20

And I kind of figured it out quickly.

27:23

I'm not one of them. I'm just going to be as real and transparent, tell

27:27

them about my life, my family, what I do back

27:30

home, and maybe they'll accept me, maybe they won't, but

27:34

I'm not going to pretend I'm one of them.

27:36

Even though they outfitted me with their gear, I knew

27:40

that I was never going to be a Navy Seal.

27:42

And I think once they understood that I wasn't one

27:45

of those guys yeah, you weren't trying to pretend that

27:49

you were on the same level as them. Absolutely.

27:53

And that's when I was accepted by some

27:56

of the Army Special Forces and people that

27:59

we travel around the country with. And it was just an interesting observation

28:04

that I respected their craft, I respected

28:08

their dedication and their fraternity, and I

28:11

wasn't trying to insert myself into that.

28:14

So how long were you deployed in Afghanistan? Tim?

28:18

I think I was out there a total of something like nine months.

28:23

It was supposed to be an eleven and a half

28:25

month tour, but I had early relief coming in an

28:30

active duty major in the army, and from a career

28:35

standpoint, it was more important to him to spend as

28:39

much time as he could, whereas that wasn't my motivation.

28:43

So I volunteered to put in a request to have my

28:48

orders cut short if necessary, and it worked out great.

28:51

And what was it like leaving Afghanistan

28:54

and then coming back to the United States and rejoining your family, too?

29:01

I had been deployed once before, and

29:03

I had experienced that transition back to

29:06

civilian life, and that was a challenge.

29:09

But the Afghanistan transition, I found was more

29:12

difficult because there were things going on within

29:15

me that I wasn't aware of. I thought, okay, well, this is fine.

29:18

I'm going to go back home like last time. I'm not out here shooting people, kicking down doors.

29:25

But I realized I had some issues that I

29:31

didn't think were there, but sure enough, they were.

29:33

So it was a difficult transition for me to go

29:37

back because they don't really prepare you for that.

29:40

One of the things that I think a lot

29:44

of Americans aren't aware of is that with the

29:48

Iraq and the Afghanistan wars, 45% of the forces

29:53

used to prosecute those wars were weakened warriors.

29:59

These were Reservists National Guard members.

30:02

We're not active duty. This isn't our career.

30:06

We have a life in the civilian private sector.

30:10

We have families and whatnot, and we're plucked out and

30:14

sent to support these wars, or worse, sent out to

30:18

support these wars, but that wasn't our profession.

30:22

We didn't eat, breathe and sleep.

30:24

At when you're fighting wars and half of the

30:29

ground forces are made up of these weakened warriors?

30:32

What happens when you send them back home?

30:36

The US military reserves date back to the beginning of

30:39

our nation, when militias fought in our war of independence

30:43

prior to the creation of a regular army.

30:46

Today, our reserve components, which include army, Navy, air

30:51

Force, coast Guard and Marines, have about one 1

30:55

million members and comprise over 45% of our total.

31:00

US military force reserves comprise more than

31:04

a third of the approximately 7750 US.

31:09

Soldiers who served in the Afghan war.

31:12

They fulfilled all kinds of important jobs,

31:15

including helicopter pilots, combat soldiers, doctors, nurses,

31:20

and essential support officers like Tim.

31:23

Since the launching of Operation Enduring Freedom in

31:26

2001, 2461 US service members died in the

31:32

Afghan conflict and 200 were wounded.

31:36

Somewhere between a quarter and a half of those

31:38

were members of the Reserves and National Guard.

31:43

I'm sure the VA talks to you for a couple of

31:46

hours as part of your three day sort of interim stop

31:53

before you fly home, but what's that going to do?

31:56

That's not going to help you. So you kind of have to figure it out on your own.

32:00

Hence the high suicide rates and the PTSD collateral

32:06

damage that we still are facing years later.

32:11

And it's not just the soldier or sailor going home.

32:13

It's their family that's impacted, of course, their loved ones around them.

32:17

It's their community. Everybody's impacted, and they don't realize why.

32:21

Well, like, for you to have experienced what you have

32:24

experienced, you had a career, you had your job.

32:28

You're hearing about the war in Afghanistan and what's going

32:31

on and why we're there, and it's kind of all

32:34

makes sense the way it's explained in the news.

32:38

And then when you go there and when you see the way

32:41

you did very first hand how the war is being waged right.

32:47

Just to come back with those big questions in your head,

32:54

it must be very difficult because in a way, it sort

32:57

of undermines your whole structure in terms of how you see

33:05

the world and how you see your country right.

33:07

And your role in it. Right. Absolutely.

33:12

You come back and people are very generous and supportive.

33:15

Of course, everybody thanks you for your service and

33:18

your family's proud of you and this and that.

33:21

But you don't want to talk about it because you

33:23

see what goes on out there and you come home

33:27

and you're like, was it really worth it?

33:31

Was it worth the price I paid leaving my family?

33:35

It took a toll on my marriage. Now divorced, it's a long time marriage.

33:40

I'm not saying that was the only reason for the marriage to break up, but it certainly had a role

33:45

in my relationship with my kids and the anger and

33:52

the attitude towards my because it's human nature.

33:56

We hurt the people that are closest to us can't help.

33:59

I didn't know why, but I remember when I was out there, Ralph, I developed.

34:04

A friendship with the camp doctor. And I remember we were smoking cigars,

34:09

of course, me and the camp doctor. Not exactly the healthiest thing to do, but over cigars one

34:15

night, I told him, I said, you know, doc, I said,

34:19

I don't know why, but whenever I come back from being

34:21

out side the wire, man, I just want to take off

34:25

my battle rat on my kit, and I just want to

34:28

sleep on my rack for like an hour or two. I just feel so exhausted.

34:31

And it happens every time I leave. He goes, you know why that's taking place? I'm like?

34:35

No, I have no idea. I'm honest, like, why?

34:38

He said, It's because your body is

34:41

pumping so much adrenaline, you're afraid even

34:44

though you don't think you are. But there's a fear every time you step outside of

34:48

the safety zone, your head is on a swivel.

34:51

You're looking alert. Every trash sheep on the side of

34:56

the road could be hiding an IED.

34:58

You don't know who's around you.

35:02

And so your body is just on overdrive with adrenaline.

35:07

And when you come back into the safe confine, it shuts down, and it's a drug.

35:14

And that's why when I got home, I struggled

35:20

physically because there was no experience that could replace

35:25

what I experienced going outside the wire.

35:28

Back in Afghanistan, I would catch myself watching

35:31

these Discovery and other TV programs that showed

35:36

the IED patrols in Afghanistan combat and anything

35:41

military related in Iraq or Afghanistan.

35:44

I would watch it because I would get, like, a little hit, and it kept me going.

35:49

And it also explains why we had a lot of soldiers

35:53

who weren't told to go back to Iraq or Afghanistan.

35:57

They often volunteer, of course, because there was

36:01

nothing back home stateside that could replace the

36:05

adrenaline rush they experienced in combat.

36:08

And so they needed that because they didn't know how to function in a peaceful environment.

36:13

Yeah, that's why a lot of tier one operators, the hardest time is coming back here

36:19

when they have three months downtime, right.

36:23

And they find themselves jumping out of planes

36:25

and riding motorcycles and getting drunk and doing

36:30

crazy stuff, but then they jump at the first opportunity to go back. Exactly. Right, exactly.

36:35

They may even lie to their family that I was tapped to go back. I don't want to.

36:40

But the reality is they probably volunteered.

36:42

So that's the dynamic that existed for me.

36:46

And I can only imagine those that were involved with

36:50

even more intense combat, what they had to experience.

36:53

But that's not discussed. And when you're in a support role or if you're

36:58

not a trigger puller, you almost feel ashamed to talk

37:01

about it because you know that you've served with people

37:04

that have seen far worse or experienced far worse.

37:07

So, like, who am I to complain?

37:10

So you keep it quiet.

37:14

According to a study by the Rand Corporation published

37:17

in 2013, over 12% of reservists returning from the

37:22

war in Afghanistan have reported suffering from PTSD.

37:27

This doesn't include the many others who never seek treatment.

37:32

Symptoms include reexperiencing the traumatic event, often

37:36

in the form of nightmares, hyper, vigilance,

37:40

easily being startled, negative emotions and thoughts,

37:43

including self blame, and feeling detached from

37:47

others and their surroundings. What feeds this process and makes recovery difficult is that

37:53

one of the primary symptoms of PTSD is avoidance.

37:58

And the more someone avoids developing a healthy

38:01

coping approach to the trauma, the more their

38:03

beliefs about the impact of the trauma continued.

38:07

As Tim points out, this dynamic can

38:10

be even more impactful among reservists, many

38:14

of whom were never employed in direct

38:16

combat roles, but suffered combat trauma nonetheless.

38:21

And because of the terms of their service, they

38:24

were expected to return seamlessly to their civilian jobs.

38:30

So that was the experience.

38:34

What you see on television is not

38:37

the way it is out there. No, not at all.

38:40

It's a lot of downtime, and

38:42

then there's this flurry of activity.

38:46

I remember the second night I was there at

38:49

Camp Integrity walking into what we call the jock

38:52

to join Operations Center, and it was this big

38:55

room where the two Star sat with his staff.

38:58

And every night we had the Battle Update

39:02

brief, and that's when people will update the

39:06

two Star about the high value targets that

39:09

were captured or killed in any missions.

39:12

And this, that, and the other. I remember sitting in that room the second day I

39:16

showed up at Camp Integrity and watching in real time

39:22

a drone attack, and the two Star was approving it.

39:28

And I just remember sitting there, and the guy that took me in there for the

39:32

first time is like, Check this out. He goes, this is really cool.

39:36

He was excited. I'm like, what's going on?

39:39

He goes, Just watch. And I just remember seeing these two guys on

39:44

a dirt bike, some mountain somewhere in Afghanistan.

39:48

And I hear all the radio chattered. I'm like, oh, crap, is this what

39:53

I think is going to happen?

39:55

And then our missiles had a camera, so as they got

40:00

closer to the target, the target could hear the missile.

40:04

They would always turn around and look straight

40:07

at the missile a second before impact.

40:10

Well, and you would see the pink mist.

40:15

I don't know, even now, looking back years, I saw so many of those.

40:18

That's just so different from video. Like, that was real life.

40:22

Those two guys are gone, gone in an instant.

40:25

And it's just one thing that sticks out of my mind.

40:31

It was just an incredible, life changing experience on so many levels.

40:37

And just see firsthand the problems that

40:43

take place with these chai boys.

40:46

That's a whole another topic. I'm sure you've heard about chai boys and

40:52

what happens there, and it's just heartbreaking.

40:56

It's just a heartbreaking country all the way down. Yes.

40:58

Well, why don't you explain that a little bit. It's something that Americans don't

41:01

hear about for whatever reason.

41:03

The media that covered the war, I guess, had an

41:07

unofficial deal in order to get access with the Department

41:10

of Defense that they wouldn't report on it.

41:13

But there was a book, I believe.

41:15

It's called The Kite Runner. Yes, years ago best seller.

41:20

And I would encourage your listeners to go back and read it.

41:22

It's fascinating, but it touches on that dark side of

41:28

Afghan culture, and essentially what it is is that the

41:33

wealthier village elders or the leaders in a community so

41:36

Afghanistan doesn't believe in, obviously, premarital sex or anything like

41:41

that, but in their mind, it's okay to purchase a

41:47

young boy from a poor family, have him dress up

41:51

as a girl, wear makeup. These are young boys, the ages, 12, 13, 14

41:56

years old, and they were the ones that would

41:58

serve the tea and food in these settings.

42:03

But essentially, these were boys who were owned

42:07

by important elders, and they were raped.

42:12

That's what happened. And in their mind, they justified it because

42:16

they weren't having sex with a woman, it

42:19

was okay to violate a young boy.

42:22

And when I first saw this, I remember the first time I

42:27

went to one of these shuras, and I saw this young boy.

42:31

Clearly, it was a boy, but dressed like a girl with makeup.

42:34

I mean, I was sick to my stomach

42:37

when they told me, and these are guys these were Afghans who we would work with.

42:41

No, it's participating. The thing is that it's everywhere.

42:44

It's pervasive right throughout the entire it's

42:47

not restricted to a certain province.

42:50

It's not something you see occasionally.

42:53

It's everywhere. It's just accepted practice everywhere.

42:57

And the Taliban does it as much as anybody else. Yeah.

43:00

I had a friend who was

43:02

training the Afghan National Army.

43:05

He was one of the first trainers to go

43:08

in, and they would get these guys in, and

43:12

they appoint, like, a sergeant or something like that.

43:15

And at a certain point, somebody came to him

43:19

and he said, hey, when you tell the sergeant

43:23

to discipline somebody, do you know what they're doing?

43:29

And he was like, Well, I assume

43:31

they're giving them, like, latrine duty or

43:34

telling them to clean up the garbage.

43:36

And he goes, no, they're sodomizing them.

43:40

That's what they do. And he was like, oh, my God, that can't be.

43:46

And he goes, yeah, go talk to them.

43:49

You got to tell them. And he went and he spoke to them.

43:53

He lined up his six sergeants, and he

43:55

says, hey, guys, you can't do that anymore.

43:58

And they were like, well, that's

44:01

the way we do things here.

44:03

Like, what's the big deal in a

44:05

country that claims to be so religious?

44:10

It was widespread knowledge that on Thursdays, that's when

44:15

the boys, the men would get together, and you

44:19

get together with your friends, and you go out and have a drink after work, happy hour.

44:23

Well, their Thursdays were reserved for them to let out

44:28

some steam, so to speak, outside of their marriage.

44:30

And the only reason I bring it up is just because it's this contrast that exists in that

44:37

society, that culture, and it's perfectly accepted.

44:40

Of course it happens. It's the way they do things, the way they've been

44:44

doing things, and we're not going to change it.

44:47

No, but the thing is that what Americans don't understand,

44:52

which isn't explained to them by the media, is that

44:55

when you go into these countries, it is so different.

45:00

The people, their history, their experience, we

45:05

talk about their countries in our terms.

45:09

They don't see it that way at all. No.

45:12

Well, that speaks to and I'm sure you've encountered this

45:16

too we're so insular here in the United States.

45:20

We think the world revolves around us.

45:23

We value and judge things from a

45:26

material perspective, and we just assume that

45:29

if you're poor, you're miserable and unhappy.

45:33

And what I found in traveling around the world

45:35

is that, man, I've met families and young kids

45:41

who are just the happiest children on the face

45:44

of the planet, living in dirt huts.

45:46

And how do you process that as an American?

45:51

It's just so contrary to everything.

45:54

In fact, some of the happiest people I've ever met

45:57

are living out in the jungle, in a hut, or

46:03

in all different places in the world, perfectly happy.

46:06

They could care less. They have no TV, no radio, running water.

46:13

They grow their own plants. They hunt.

46:17

Perfectly happy. So let's jump forward to when

46:21

we suddenly pulled out of Afghanistan.

46:24

What was that like for you? Because you had made friendships there? Sure.

46:29

I had a lot of friends who were terps interpreters and just regular Afghans who work

46:36

for NGOs and places like that.

46:40

Great people, like, highly intelligent.

46:42

And suddenly you're going like, well, what the

46:45

hell is going to happen to them? Does anybody care?

46:47

And I'm sure it was like 100 times that for you.

46:50

Oh, my God. It messed me up.

46:55

It brought up so many feelings and emotions.

47:01

My family will tell you that I had a one or two

47:05

week period there where, man, I was just really messed up.

47:08

I had to reach out to my therapist and kind of talk it through.

47:12

I know it sounds all cheesy, but I wrote

47:15

a letter to myself, and I had to figure

47:18

out how to process the great thing about it.

47:20

And I'll answer your question, but the great thing about it is that I

47:26

remember posting something on LinkedIn openly.

47:29

I wrote something. And I just remember a lot of my friends who I served

47:34

with, we were just all looking out for just people I haven't

47:38

talked to in years, sending a text or an email.

47:41

Hey, you're good? Hey, man, you're good? You want to talk?

47:43

Everybody was going through the same same thing.

47:46

It didn't matter if you're a democrat, Republican.

47:48

Whether you supported Biden's decision or you were

47:52

dead set against the way he did it,

47:54

everybody was experiencing the same thing.

47:58

Because at that moment before the chaos ensued, I

48:04

remember a friend of mine from business school hit

48:06

me up, and he asked me for my thoughts.

48:09

And I just happened to be looking at some old photos

48:12

of Cobble, and a few photos in particular, flying over the

48:17

Green Zone and looking at the main road, the airport road

48:22

that leads from the Green Zone, the US. Embassy is a straight shot about

48:26

a mile to Kabul International.

48:29

And I remember telling my buddy, and I circled it

48:32

with my phone on my iPhone, and I edited the

48:35

photos, and he said, Dude, watch what happens.

48:38

You see this road and you see these gates up here?

48:43

This is where it's about to go

48:45

down, and it's going to get ugly. And Ralph, sure enough, the abbey gate,

48:51

that main road, it just unfolded.

48:54

But to answer your question, it was tough because I

49:00

thought I had been cool with my whole experience.

49:04

But all these emotions started to flood back in.

49:07

All I could think about was the faces of every

49:11

local Afghan I had ever met or worked with.

49:14

From the interpreters, to the soldiers, the officers to

49:19

our cooks in the defect in our dining facility,

49:22

to the cleaning crews that would clean our rooms.

49:27

Every local I could think of came to

49:30

mind, and it was just this fear, like,

49:33

what happened to them and their families?

49:36

Are they alive? Did the Taliban just go?

49:40

Because Taliban knew who was working. Of course.

49:43

Were they dragged out of their homes?

49:45

Were their daughters raped and killed?

49:48

The worst thought that could flood a mine flooded my mind.

49:52

And I just remember being glued to the television.

49:55

Twenty four, seven, I couldn't work, and I

49:57

was just glued to the TV set.

50:00

And it was just really tough to process because

50:04

I think we should have been out years prior. Biden and the DoD didn't exactly it's not the way

50:12

I would have done it, but they did it. They stuck to their promise of getting out of

50:17

Afghanistan, but it should have taken place years prior.

50:23

As Tim points out, the reasons for the

50:26

US military involvement in Afghanistan changed over time

50:30

and were never adequately explained to the public.

50:34

After the devastating events of 911, we went into

50:37

Afghanistan to find and defeat the al Qaeda terrorists

50:41

who had planned and executed the attacks and overthrow

50:45

the Taliban government that harbored them.

50:48

This was largely accomplished by December 2001, with

50:52

the help of the Northern Alliance, which was

50:54

made up primarily of Tajik and Uzbek tribesmen.

50:58

In early 2003, US.

51:01

Attention shifted to Iraq, allowing the Taliban to

51:04

retrench in the southern part of Afghanistan and

51:08

among the country's majority tribe, the Poshunts.

51:12

Five years later when us Attention shifted back

51:15

to Afghanistan, the Taliban had reestablished its control

51:19

over a good half of the country and

51:22

was challenging the USbacked government in Kabul.

51:26

Instead of trying to make peace and exit

51:28

the country gracefully, we increased our involvement and

51:33

essentially took sides in a tribal war in

51:36

a country we never fully understood.

51:39

Like Tim says, it was inevitable

51:42

that our effort would fail. What's tragic and so very sad is the terrible

51:48

toll of lives that were lost in the process.

51:53

And they knew that the cars I family,

51:55

and some of it was so corrupt. The cars.

52:00

I family in particular. I remember his family members had mansions on

52:06

the hillside overlooking Camp Integrity because that was

52:09

considered a fairly safe part of Kabul.

52:15

These were built with taxpayer dollars.

52:18

You look at the president, I can't think of

52:20

him, but the last president who fled when we

52:25

pulled out, he's now living in a beautiful palatial

52:30

villa in Dubai, and apparently he shipped out $300

52:34

million in an aircraft before he fled.

52:38

This is our money. I know we throw money around.

52:41

I mean, the money we spend in Afghanistan,

52:44

all the bases we built are the billions

52:47

and airstrips all over the country.

52:50

And I can't tell you we visited bases that

52:52

we built that were going to house the Afghan

52:55

national army or train their special forces.

52:58

These were huge campuses where we spent

53:01

because, of course, everything cost with contractors.

53:05

They win a contract, and they're going to charge the US.

53:08

Government ten times what it would cost. And these places stood empty.

53:12

They were never going to house people there.

53:15

We built camp Alpha at Bajram Air Base, where this

53:21

was going to be the headquarters for special operation.

53:24

And I remember going up there a couple of nights and

53:28

spending the night in these new dorms that we built.

53:31

This place was unbelievable.

53:34

Just the rec rooms.

53:37

We spent tens of millions, if not hundreds

53:39

of millions of dollars on just camp Alpha.

53:42

New camp Alpha. We never moved in there.

53:46

Brand new facilities, and it looks like a beautiful

53:49

state of the art junior college campus wow.

53:51

Inside of Bogram Air Base. Wow.

53:53

And this is much deeper than republican

53:57

democrat trump versus Biden versus Obama. Oh, yeah.

54:01

It's none of that. And if you go against the military

54:04

industrial complex, then you're not a patriot.

54:07

You're against the troops. You're against the veterans.

54:12

You're a red diaper DOPA baby because you don't want

54:16

to spend money to take care of our military.

54:19

It's BS. Anybody who wears the uniform knows there's so

54:23

much waste in the department of defense.

54:25

You could cut the budget by 20% overnight.

54:29

And if you force the DoD to operate, like

54:31

the private sector, we wouldn't skip a beat.

54:34

I would argue that we would actually have a more lethal military if they

54:37

were to incorporate private sector practice.

54:42

It was an interesting experience. And my hat is off to all of the

54:49

reservists and the guard members who are often overlooked,

54:52

who aren't professional soldiers or sailors, but, you know,

54:57

when their name was called, they packed up their

55:00

gear, they left their families, they did their part,

55:04

put their lives on the line. Even if they weren't Silver Star trigger pullers,

55:09

they did what they were asked to do.

55:11

And I hope that history will be kind to

55:17

us and recognize the contributions, not only those who

55:22

served, but their families who were left behind.

55:24

Because I've always said it that the people that

55:28

pay the biggest price are the family members, the

55:33

kids, the parents, the spouses who have to hold

55:37

down the fort and help heal the psychological wounds.

55:42

Absolutely. And they don't have the safety net or the network that

55:48

active duty spouses have where they can go on base.

55:53

And there's just this community, people who

55:56

are used to living this way. You don't have that on the guard, on the reserve side.

56:00

You've had over the last 20 years with these two

56:02

wars, hundreds of thousands of families that have had to

56:07

figure this out on their own and paid a tremendous

56:11

price, of course, and sacrificed a lot.

56:16

And I hope history is kind to us.

56:20

I'm glad I served. The contrast from what I left and what I jumped

56:29

into in Afghanistan was so extreme, and I'm sure that

56:34

experience has made you a richer I like it.

56:36

Intellectually and spiritually, right?

56:39

I think so. I think that it's helped me to grow quite a

56:42

bit and recognize mistakes made in the past and come

56:49

to value life much more so than ever before.

56:53

Yes, life is short, and don't

56:57

be afraid to ask for help. To the listeners out there, if there was any

57:02

part of my story that resonates with you, PTSD

57:06

is not reserved for the heroic trigger pullers, kicking

57:12

down doors, shooting people everybody can experience, and you

57:16

probably did, hasn't been recognized yet, but get help.

57:21

Talk to someone. The amount of resources that are available today,

57:27

it's never been as deep and wide in

57:31

terms of what's available to our servicemen and

57:33

women who have served in the Middle East.

57:36

So take advantage of it. Despite everything he's been through, tim

57:42

still serves proudly as a lieutenant

57:44

commander in the Naval Reserves.

57:47

He still trains every month, and he's ready

57:49

to take a break from his lucrative financial

57:52

services job and deploy again if called.

57:56

As someone who suffered from PTSD himself, he urges

58:00

anyone suffering from psychological trauma, whether it's caused by

58:04

a car accident or being in combat, to not

58:08

be ashamed, to seek help, to understand that you

58:11

don't have to live in the shell of pain,

58:14

depression, fear, and anxiety forever, and that it's never

58:19

too late to heal and men broken relationships.

58:23

We thanked him for representing all the reservists

58:26

who bravely serve our country, and we thank

58:29

him for his service and honesty in reporting

58:33

what he witnessed in Afghanistan.

58:35

We're proud and honored to call Tim

58:38

Sanchez today's hero behind the headlines.

58:43

Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Ralph Pazulo.

58:46

Our producers are Frank Hobbes, Ralph Pazulo and Apex Media.

58:50

If you haven't already, please download, review and subscribe.

58:54

And check out some of our past episodes,

58:56

such as is the epic battle of Mirbot and World War II's most infamous survival story.

59:01

And don't forget to tune in to the next episode of Heroes Behind Headlines.