0:00

You're

0:01

listening too. Mamamia Mia Podcast.

0:04

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional

0:06

owners of the land we have recorded this

0:08

podcast on. The categorical people

0:10

of the nation. We

0:13

pay our respects to their elders, past, and

0:15

present, and extend that respect

0:17

to all aboriginal and torres strait islander

0:19

cultures. Sophie here, before

0:22

we get into today's episode, I wanted

0:24

to let you know about a very special bonus

0:26

episode, which will drop today where we get

0:28

into all of the dirty details you didn't

0:30

know you could ask about sex between

0:33

two

0:33

women. Follow the link in our show notes

0:35

to listen. I have never experienced

0:37

that safety before. Yeah. It 50's

0:39

like home.

0:46

Hi, and welcome to her with me

0:49

Sophie Kaisha. Mama Aimea's podcast

0:51

which explores what happens when

0:53

you unexpectedly discover you're

0:55

attracted to women. Sarah

0:58

was in a twenty year marriage with

1:00

three

1:00

kids. When one day, a light

1:02

bulb went off. I think I'm

1:05

gay.

1:05

I was so happy me. I was actually quite

1:07

relieved thinking there's nothing wrong with

1:09

me. I'm just gay. The

1:12

marriage was one filled with abuse

1:15

and turbulence. And after making a decision

1:17

to

1:17

leave, everything suddenly

1:20

started to make sense. It was

1:22

astounding how differently

1:24

I saw the world. On one hand,

1:26

I was, wow, this is so

1:28

amazing, but I also had this

1:31

joy and I didn't know what to do

1:33

with

1:33

it. Now in her fifties, the

1:35

writer and mother has begun coming

1:37

out to those around her. She tells

1:39

us all about the hurt her sexuality

1:42

has caused how her coming out

1:44

journey hasn't always been smooth

1:46

sailing, but why she would

1:48

do it all over again to find

1:50

herself For the first time in my

1:52

life, I had no clue what

1:54

the hell I was doing. I had no

1:56

idea what was coming next.

1:58

And that kind of excited me She's

2:01

now dating a woman for the first

2:02

time, and she joins us to give a

2:04

raw and honest account of the other side

2:07

of what can happen when you finally meet

2:09

her. Heads up this

2:11

episode does include some descriptions of

2:14

sexual assault and domestic violence.

2:16

That may be distressing to some listeners.

2:18

If this raises any issues for you or you

2:20

just feel like you need to speak to someone, please

2:23

call one-eight hundred respect that one

2:25

eight hundred 737732.

2:29

Okay, Sarah. So I like to start

2:31

off all of my interviews with the same

2:33

question. When did you first meet

2:36

her? It was about four years ago,

2:38

I think, now. And it

2:40

kind of happened abruptly where I

2:42

was in a nineteen year

2:44

marriage which disintegrated. And

2:47

the first person I came out to was

2:49

my ex husband. Which in

2:51

hindsight was the worst thing

2:53

I could have done, but

2:55

it happened in a moment right

2:58

after I rejected sex with him. And

3:00

he stormed out of the room and I

3:03

had that light bulb moment. I

3:05

was so happy. I was actually quite relieved.

3:08

Thinking there's nothing wrong with me. I'm

3:11

just gay. And I followed

3:13

him out and sat down, had

3:15

a conversation with him, and as

3:18

I was talking with him, I said

3:20

the in

3:23

my head because I just

3:25

saw the horror in his face, the pain.

3:28

And I think I'll never forget that he left,

3:30

he got drunk, came home,

3:33

and he told me he could fix it,

3:35

and what I know

3:37

now as rape. He tried to

3:39

rape me. And later on,

3:41

my therapist, you know, explained to me that was

3:43

rape, which I didn't really know what rape was.

3:46

And all this happened with not

3:48

even having one experience with a woman.

3:51

I just knew. And same as when

3:53

I came out to a couple of close friends,

3:55

it's like are, babe, it's a phase.

3:58

You get over it. And plus,

4:00

you never had an experience with anybody

4:02

in I said that's what makes

4:04

it more definitive for me that

4:06

I haven't had an experience and it's

4:08

something that I'm wanting that

4:10

I'm resonating with But

4:12

yeah, that's how I met her. I

4:15

think it's really interesting what you touched

4:17

on then because I know a lot of other

4:19

women have experienced

4:20

it. I know I did. It's being in

4:22

a position of I'm not sure what I am, but I

4:24

know I'm not that.

4:26

Yes. And I feel like you really experienced

4:29

that unfortunately in such a

4:31

traumatic way, and I'm very sorry you went

4:33

through

4:33

that. Can we just revisit how it

4:35

felt for you watching

4:37

that horror on his face? So

4:40

he was angry at that

4:42

revelation of your feelings. It's

4:44

indescribable and being

4:47

such an empathetic person, I immediately

4:50

absorbed his energy and his pain

4:52

and that's something that I still deal

4:54

with to this day. And

4:56

it was not very pretty

4:59

after that and it hasn't been and

5:01

I don't think it ever will be. I have to

5:03

put myself first. You know, for

5:05

the first time in my life, I had to put myself

5:07

first at whatever cost,

5:10

and it did cost me a great shit

5:13

ton, and it still

5:15

is and still does. Right? It's a

5:17

comic debt that I'm still paying, but

5:19

it is what it

5:20

is. I can certainly relate to your

5:22

story where your feelings go in this

5:24

direction, and there's this

5:27

misunderstanding that you're just like, oh, well, that's it.

5:29

Bye. I'm done. And it's not you live

5:31

with this pain and this guilt because it's

5:33

not really a choice you made

5:35

whilst it's following, you know,

5:37

the message that we're all taught to do is

5:40

to be who you are, love yourself,

5:42

put yourself first when you do

5:43

that, but you do live with that guilt. Don't you?

5:45

Absolutely. I mean, that, you

5:47

know, love yourself mantra

5:50

is just thrown around so easily.

5:52

And really, it's not easy at all.

5:54

I guess it's a fluctuation, isn't it? You have

5:56

moments where you do absolutely love yourself

5:58

and there are moments where you can't even look in the mirror.

6:02

Over the years, it's something that I've learned to embrace

6:04

rather than deny. Can we

6:06

go back to your early

6:08

years? And what did

6:09

they waiting look like for Was it very

6:11

straightforward with your sexuality?

6:14

No. Not at all. No. I'm from

6:17

a European background on first generation.

6:20

And dating for me was non existent.

6:23

I had very strict upbringing. You

6:25

didn't bring any boys home until you were gonna

6:27

get married, basically. You

6:30

had a job, you found a man,

6:32

you build this home, you

6:34

have children, and you have a

6:36

family. And I

6:39

told that line really, really well.

6:41

I was reluctant golden

6:43

child of the family. I still am to

6:45

this

6:46

day, which I really really hate. Little

6:48

do they know that they have a rainbow child?

6:51

So there were never any inklings towards

6:54

women during your teenage years

6:56

or early

6:57

twenties? I know that there was something different

6:59

about me even in my early teens.

7:01

And I could never put my finger

7:03

on it because I think I buried

7:06

that side of me so deep

7:08

and so well and concrete

7:11

that I even had

7:13

no idea and

7:15

I sort of explored feelings

7:17

within myself in my late teens and

7:20

I would only get off on women, you know,

7:22

when I masturbated. I just

7:24

never thought anything of it. I thought, oh,

7:26

everyone must do this. Every woman must

7:28

do this. It's okay. And I never questioned

7:30

it. I never thought it was me

7:32

being

7:33

gay. It just you know, it happens

7:35

and then you just move on and go on with your

7:37

life. I'd like to talk a little bit about

7:39

your marriage because you did touch on then it was

7:41

very straightforward. You didn't really date you

7:43

dated to get married, to become a family,

7:45

and do all of that. So talk us through

7:48

sort of the dynamic of your marriage

7:50

in those early years.

7:51

Look, I thought I found the love of

7:53

my life and, you know, you get

7:56

caught up in having children. I had three

7:58

children and I'm just

8:00

so blessed and I love my kids

8:02

as all mothers do. There

8:05

was always a thorn in my side and

8:07

never understood it and I never explored it.

8:09

Sex was always vanilla. I was okay

8:12

with that. I think this is what I'm given,

8:14

so I'll deal with it and you just deal

8:16

with it. I didn't feel

8:18

very sexual at all, and he thought that

8:20

I had a problem. I put it down

8:22

to the fact that I had three children,

8:24

I was running a house sold at

8:27

work, deep down I

8:29

knew something was missing, something

8:31

just didn't add up. It just didn't

8:33

feel normal. Obviously,

8:35

I rejected him a lot of times,

8:38

sexually. And he thought, you

8:40

need to go and see a sex therapist or

8:42

something. Did you believe that something was

8:44

maybe wrong with you as well? Absolutely.

8:47

I thought this is shit.

8:49

I can't be like this.

8:51

I can't not enjoy

8:54

a healthy, varied, sexual life,

8:56

but my didn't. That just didn't

8:58

dawn on me that I was gay at all.

9:00

No. It didn't even come into the equation.

9:09

So at the start of this chat, we talked

9:11

about that experience of rejecting sex

9:13

and realizing there's that light bulb

9:16

moment. I must be gay. Let's

9:18

talk through that realization. Was there

9:20

a woman that you met after that, or was

9:22

there a first experience did you find

9:24

after that realization your attraction

9:27

to women sort of out in society

9:29

grew?

9:30

Once that light bulb turned

9:33

on, so did everything else.

9:35

It was astounding how

9:37

differently I saw the world. On

9:40

one hand, I was, wow, this

9:42

is so amazing. This is

9:44

so amazing. You know, I

9:46

laughed and I cried and I had just

9:49

terr inside of me, but

9:51

I also had this joy and

9:53

I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't

9:55

have any gay friends. Being

9:58

a big advocate for mental well-being,

10:01

I went to a therapist.

10:02

With the therapy, did you find that

10:04

your feelings were reassured, that what you

10:06

were feeling was totally

10:08

normal, and that like you were

10:10

told, you didn't actually have a problem.

10:12

Yeah, that was really difficult to

10:14

hear. There were a

10:17

lot of tears. We both cried,

10:19

I think, every session. I

10:21

had a lot of internalized homophobia. I

10:23

might still do to some extent that

10:26

I couldn't say gay for

10:28

a very long time. I couldn't say

10:30

I'm gay for a very long time. And

10:34

a few sessions in, I think was

10:36

just having a talk about something, and I

10:38

said I'm gay. And she said,

10:40

can we have a pause for a minute? Do

10:42

you know what you just said? And of course,

10:44

the cheese? It took

10:47

me a long time to get my head

10:49

around there. I really didn't know what

10:51

was happening. I really didn't know what

10:53

to expect. I try to come

10:56

into this with as little

10:58

judgment as possible. I mean, not

11:00

having any experiences at all with

11:02

anybody. What life

11:05

would be like after

11:07

this fact. And

11:09

the irony is that before

11:13

my light bulb moment, everything

11:15

was so structured. I had an answer to

11:17

everything. I was the go to person to

11:19

fix things. Now I was a mom of three and

11:22

I had all my shit together and, you

11:24

know, everything was great. And

11:26

for the first time in my life, I

11:28

had no clue what the hell I was doing.

11:31

I had no idea what was

11:33

coming next. And that kind of

11:35

excited me. I kind of freefell

11:37

into it, but it petrifies you at the same

11:39

time. Right? I was shitting a

11:41

brick. Yeah. Yep. So

11:43

let's talk about what it was like. For you

11:45

to go through those first experiences with

11:47

women and having that fear but also

11:50

having that heart and that desire

11:52

I didn't know where to start. You know, I was in

11:54

a marriage for nineteen years and I

11:56

was completely faithful, so I never

11:58

had any indiscretions and I

12:00

hadn't dated in over twenty years.

12:02

So I had no idea, like,

12:05

very close friend of mine's, that's it.

12:08

I'm taking me to a gay bar and you're gonna

12:10

kiss a girl tonight. Okay.

12:13

Let's do this and you know, we went

12:15

and we had a few drinks and then towards the end

12:18

of the night, it happened.

12:20

Someone in her twenties It

12:22

was absolutely gorgeous and

12:24

we kissed and I

12:27

will never forget that moment. I don't

12:29

know who she is. I never got her

12:31

name, which is probably a good thing,

12:33

but I just cannot get over

12:35

how soft she felt and how

12:37

mellow she tasted. And so how did

12:39

it feel inside? So the physical

12:41

side of it was beautiful. A woman's face

12:44

is soft and they're gentle. They smell

12:46

nice, but how did it feel for you inside

12:48

to finally take that plunge?

12:51

I said, yeah. I'm gay as fuck. There

12:55

was no denying it, you know. I

12:57

sort of did question was I buy?

13:00

Oh, no. I'm gay as gay as they come.

13:02

Jay's the heels. So, yeah, it

13:04

was no turning back from me, and it's something

13:06

that I wanted more of. So

13:08

I went online online dating. 'Out'

13:11

did you find the biggest difference

13:12

initially? And again, it's hard.

13:13

You said you hadn't dated for twenty years, so

13:15

it is hard to compare the two. But

13:18

Were there any stark differences that you

13:20

found immediately from dating women

13:23

that were different from what you'd ever known?

13:25

It was just so easy it

13:27

was really easy.

13:30

We didn't even have to have dialogue and

13:33

there was this knowing between the both

13:35

of us. Whoever I dated,

13:38

it was just comfortable. It felt

13:40

safe. I have never experienced

13:42

that safety before. Yeah. It feels

13:45

like home.

13:45

I often use the line. There is such

13:47

a relatability between women

13:50

when you're sitting in cross the table or if you're in

13:52

the bedroom and you instantly do feel

13:54

calm. Absolutely. I just didn't

13:56

feel threatened. I didn't feel

13:59

sexualized. My god went down

14:01

a little. 'Out' the biggest difference

14:04

you think between who you were prior

14:06

to discovering her? And who

14:09

you are

14:09

now. I think one of the biggest differences

14:12

is how I see the world now,

14:15

how I see myself how less

14:17

angry I am, how

14:19

more accepting and forgiving and compassionate

14:22

I am towards myself, first

14:24

of all, and then to others,

14:26

and despite everything crashing down

14:28

around me and in the literal sense it

14:30

did, I did experience financial

14:33

abuse in the relationship. And that's why

14:36

I ended it just for the record. I

14:38

didn't leave him because I was

14:40

gay. I left him because

14:42

of a whole range of other

14:43

reasons. Have you found on that

14:46

that it is very easy

14:48

for people to say, oh, she

14:50

left because she's gay? Without actually

14:53

knowing anything that happens behind closed

14:55

doors? Were you sort of almost tarnished

14:57

with

14:57

that? She left because she was gay? Oh

14:59

my god. Yes, definitely.

15:02

My own sister who I thought would

15:04

be okay with it, she

15:07

took his side and how dare you do this

15:09

to him? How dare you

15:11

split your family up? And you

15:13

can't tell mom and dad this will send them to an

15:15

early grave. And

15:17

I didn't talk to her for months that

15:20

was one of the biggest pains

15:22

that I had was that rejection

15:25

from my sibling who I thought

15:27

would be supportive We're great now.

15:29

She's actually my biggest ally. She

15:31

was the one pushing me to go out and date.

15:33

So,

15:34

yeah, it's really good now.

15:35

Were there other fractures in your relationships

15:37

around you with friends and family?

15:40

Yeah. Look, I did lose a couple of friends.

15:42

I'm quite an aware person. And I

15:44

knew that that would happen. And

15:46

I just had to let people know, and

15:48

that's okay. This is something that I had to

15:51

get

15:51

through, not them. That's great way to put It

15:53

actually follows on to my next question

15:55

is if there's anything you'd like listeners

15:57

to take away from your experience in this

15:59

conversation, Perhaps they're in similar

16:02

situation to

16:03

you. What would that be? So I realized

16:05

to understand my sexuality meant

16:08

to understand growth. Another

16:10

opportunity for me to grow. And,

16:13

you know, growth is not biased.

16:15

It doesn't know if you're gay straight.

16:17

Black or So growth is great. Yeah.

16:20

And it's uncomfortable. In so many

16:22

ways, it can hurt you and unfortunately,

16:24

people around you. And it's

16:26

dark at times. I'm

16:28

not gonna lie, but that's where the

16:30

nucleus of growth happens, doesn't it

16:32

in that darkness, So

16:36

when I was in a dark space and

16:38

it was dark for a very long time,

16:41

I had to make a conscious choice do

16:44

I let this consume me? Or do I let this

16:46

teach me? And once I

16:48

got my head around that sort of way of thinking

16:50

that perspective, it did teach

16:53

me. And what I

16:55

learned from that is it it hurt.

16:58

And then I allowed that hurt. I sat with

17:00

that pain. I actually invited

17:03

that pain in like a

17:05

friend and the depression,

17:07

the anxiety, that psychological diagnosis

17:11

all fell apart and

17:14

disintegrated. And through

17:16

it all, I do highly recommend

17:18

that you find a good therapist.

17:21

So with that growth thing, you know,

17:23

it's not pretty, but we don't

17:26

stop loving a rose because of its

17:28

thorns. You just may be really

17:30

emotional than talking about that growth because

17:32

I know how hard it is.

17:35

And I know how oh god. I'm gonna

17:37

cry now. I know her area. Like, no.

17:39

It was really beautiful 'Out' you just said.

17:41

Like, yeah. But it just you

17:43

really hit a nerve there because We're

17:45

constantly encouraged to grow

17:48

in life, but then when you do

17:50

it, it comes with consequences as well.

17:52

And it is hard. And everyone talks

17:54

about the positives of growth and, you

17:56

know, the sunny side of growth, but not a

17:58

lot of people talk about the dark parts of

18:01

growth that come with it. So thank you so much

18:03

for sharing that. I want to ask

18:05

you 'Out' is your favorite thing

18:07

that a woman can do for you?

18:09

My favorite thing that a woman can do

18:11

for me is to see my soul

18:13

and to hold it. It's just to be

18:15

sane, isn't it? It's to be

18:17

sane and to be held. I mean,

18:20

we all say, yeah, everyone wants to be

18:22

sane, but I think People

18:24

need to be seen and to be held in

18:26

that spot. Mhmm. Not

18:29

just physically, mentally, emotionally,

18:32

spiritually,

18:33

you know, a billion year old hug.

18:36

People need to be seen and held.

18:38

So I would really love to hear about

18:40

where you

18:41

are at now in your life. Well,

18:43

right now, I'm in a really good

18:45

space. I just celebrated two

18:47

years with my partner and I

18:51

feel like I've known her my whole life

18:53

and a few other lifetimes. So

18:56

it's been amazing and I'm

18:58

smiling. And then have

19:01

to shave my legs every time I see her.

19:03

And I don't have to pluck my eyebrows every

19:06

time I see her. It doesn't

19:09

matter. And, you know, I can be wearing

19:11

a shitty singlet with no bra on

19:13

jockeys. It doesn't matter.

19:16

You know, we can just be. I've never

19:18

had a relationship where I could

19:20

just be. I would never

19:22

change my journey.

19:25

That would be the biggest injustice to

19:28

my spirit. And my

19:30

only regret is that

19:32

I didn't do this sooner. But

19:34

it's okay. I'm here now

19:37

and, you know, I'm embracing

19:40

Everything that comes along. I'm

19:42

giving myself permission to be fucking

19:44

happy. You all would have heard that

19:46

I did get quite emotional in there, and

19:49

I certainly know that some of

19:51

the topics that Sarah spoke

19:53

about then are so relatable

19:55

to us as women who have gone through similar

19:57

journey, and I truly hope that there

19:59

is a large group of you out there who got

20:01

as much from that interview as I know I did.

20:04

We shared some really positive experiences

20:07

over this journey, and I do know that a

20:09

lot of my followers and my readers think,

20:11

oh, it's been a smooth sale for Sophie.

20:13

That's certainly not the case and that's why that

20:16

last interview was Sarah. I

20:18

really hope can give an insight into

20:21

how personally challenging it

20:23

is to experience this. And that's not

20:26

to say that we are deflect staying away

20:28

from the pain and the trouble and the confusion

20:30

that we know it has caused our, perhaps

20:32

previous partners, our families, our

20:34

friends. But how important

20:37

it is to note that growth is

20:39

challenging and growth is

20:41

scary. So would I do it all over

20:43

again? Absolutely. I'm

20:46

so happy where I am in my life right

20:48

now. Most importantly, I'm so happy with who

20:50

I am. This has been my first ever

20:52

podcast series and it

20:55

was one that I wanted to do with purpose

20:57

and I know that we have succeeded in

20:59

doing that. Thank you so much

21:01

for joining me. If you have liked this

21:03

podcast, I know that you will love my next

21:05

book. Then there was you and it is available

21:08

on presale now. You guys

21:10

can head to my Instagram to find the

21:12

link, but there is also a link in the

21:14

show notes of this podcast. If

21:18

you want unlimited access to her

21:20

in a special bonus for this episode,

21:22

I'm joined by sex columnist Nadia

21:24

Bockady to answer all of your questions

21:26

about the signs to look out for when

21:28

a woman is into you. Take

21:31

a little listen to this teaser. I

21:33

straightaway go that eye contact. If

21:36

you hold an eye contact stare

21:38

with someone across a bar on a dad's

21:40

floor for like 234

21:43

seconds. She's interested in

21:45

you. 'Out' do you reckon, Nadia?