0:00

You're

0:01

listening too. Mamamia Mia Podcast.

0:04

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional

0:06

owners of the land we have recorded this

0:08

podcast on. The categorical people

0:10

of the We

0:13

pay our respects to their elders, past, and

0:15

present, and extend that respect

0:17

to all aboriginal and Carren islander

0:19

cultures. Sophie here, before

0:22

we get into today's episode, I wanted

0:24

to let you know about a very special

0:26

bonus episode, which will drop today

0:28

where we get into all of the dirty details

0:30

you didn't know you could ask about sex

0:32

between two

0:33

women. Follow the link in our show notes

0:35

to listen. When I was forty three,

0:37

I would have said I know exactly who and what I

0:39

am, and I am not a lesbian. And one

0:41

year later, I fell in love with this woman.

0:49

Hi, and welcome to her with me

0:52

in Sophie Shes. Mommy, this

0:54

podcast which explores what happens

0:56

when you discover unexpectedly

0:58

that you are attracted to women.

1:01

Karen's was forty three when she

1:03

attended a local book club and met Shes

1:05

woman who would unlock something deep

1:07

within

1:08

her. People could probably see my heart

1:10

pounding. That's how nervous I was.

1:12

It was back in the nineteen nineties and

1:14

Karen was fight with a huge life

1:16

changing question. Was it

1:19

just her or was

1:21

she a lesbian? Shes

1:28

and pioneer went on to write one of the most

1:31

prolific pieces of Queen literature.

1:33

A groundbreaking book called women who love

1:35

women now in its third edition.

1:38

The book started as a way for Karen

1:40

to feel less alone and it has now

1:42

helped thousands of women feel the

1:44

same around the world. Today,

1:47

still living with her husband in what

1:49

Karen defines as a redefined marriage,

1:51

she joined me from our home over in

1:53

the US to talk me through this

1:56

incredible life

1:57

story. Karen,

1:59

thank you so much for joining us.

2:01

Can you start by painting me a picture

2:03

of what your life was like before

2:06

her? I live very much

2:08

Pollyanna life little white

2:11

picket fence, two children, Shes very

2:14

into crafts, eye painted,

2:16

things like that. We moved to

2:18

New York, and it was almost like, I

2:21

believe it was supposed to happen. We were painting

2:23

our house and I spread some newspapers on the table.

2:25

And there was a note on it, writer's

2:27

group. And I had just left my writer's

2:30

group in Buffalo. And he said, I have to go

2:32

to this. I left the paintbrush out. I left

2:34

the king can open. In my pain

2:36

closed. I ran down with four fact blocks,

2:38

made a left turn. That's where

2:40

Tony was. And we

2:43

started talking. We became friends I didn't

2:45

have a good friend like that before. It was just

2:47

very strange. Our friendship was

2:49

based on such openness and such honesty. That

2:52

we told each other everything. We were comfortable

2:54

in each other's homes or with each other's families.

2:56

And one night, we're having 50, and I looked across

2:59

the table, and I thought, Oh my god.

3:01

I am in love with this woman. A few

3:03

days went by, you know, I couldn't wait to see her and

3:05

I couldn't wait for her to leave when we would hug each

3:07

other. I felt if I felt like

3:09

this, she had to feel the same way. And

3:12

so I told her what I was feeling and she didn't

3:14

reciprocate my feelings. And

3:17

after a while, I kind of went on a quest

3:19

to find out. Was it her or was

3:21

it me? Was I lesbian? And

3:24

it was a very difficult time for me.

3:27

And I started writing as a catharsis

3:30

for myself. And eventually my

3:32

writing became the book married women who loved

3:34

women and now third edition married

3:36

women who loved women and more. And

3:38

it's helped a great many women. It's

3:40

become a catalyst for many

3:42

women who were going through similar discoveries

3:45

as mine. I realized I'm a pretty

3:47

gutsy person, and this was the most difficult

3:49

thing I ever went through in my life. I

3:51

lived in New York, I didn't know one

3:53

lesbian, or I thought I didn't. I

3:56

didn't know anybody in the community.

3:58

I didn't know where to turn or who to talk to.

4:00

And what was interesting and I always

4:02

tell story one of the first readings I

4:04

was doing a woman came to me sobbing

4:07

and clutching the book. And it was

4:09

a really nasty weather out side. I mean, if

4:11

I weren't the speaker, I I wouldn't have come.

4:13

But she came up to me and she said,

4:16

I had to thank you. I would have come through any

4:18

weather, any conditions to tell you. Your

4:20

book saved my life. She

4:22

thought she was the only married woman who had ever

4:24

fallen in love with another woman, and

4:27

she didn't know where to turn, who to talk to.

4:29

Shes thought the only thing she could do for her husband and

4:31

children was kill herself. She

4:33

had planned her suicide for a night when she

4:35

knew her family was gonna be home late. And

4:38

she was walking home from work for what she thought

4:40

would be the last time Shes passed a

4:42

bookstore and they were just putting my book in the

4:44

window. And when she saw the title, Shes

4:47

knew she wasn't alone and she changed her

4:49

mind. And now, this is many years

4:51

later, I still get those pencils when I tell that

4:53

story. So I know I was supposed

4:55

to write the book.

4:56

Karen, I wanna go back to childhood

5:00

family dynamic. You just

5:03

made a comment then that I thought I didn't

5:05

know any lesbians. I was the same. I

5:07

say, alright, there were no lesbians around me

5:09

growing up and very naive. We

5:11

know now there would have been. There just wouldn't

5:13

have been people comfortable to talk

5:15

about

5:15

it. What was your family situation like?

5:18

My family is Jewish. We

5:20

would go to synagogue to Temple for holidays.

5:23

And I remember asking my dad once because I had

5:25

a lot of Catholic friends how come they go to church

5:27

every week and we don't go to synagogue. And

5:29

my dad said, good comes from in

5:31

here. And he touched his chest. He

5:34

said, it's not in any house of worship.

5:36

It's from inside. And I always that

5:39

was my growing up. And

5:41

my parents were very much ahead of

5:43

their time. You know, my dad

5:45

did the dishes and my mom did the

5:47

work that would generally be considered man's

5:49

work and they shared, they camped,

5:52

they went to various things, and

5:54

they encouraged if I said I wanted to

5:56

paint my father came home with a paint

5:57

set. I wanted to build a cradle

6:00

for a doll that I had. It was one of these little

6:02

genie dolls. He took me to the hardware store.

6:04

That was what my family was like. Did

6:06

you ever have feelings of is there something

6:09

wrong with me when you were discovering Shes

6:11

this attraction, this connection with your

6:13

best friend, Tony? It was just a such

6:16

a powerful thing and it was just a

6:18

sudden

6:18

thing. You know, looking back in hindsight,

6:20

I would say, I could appreciate a woman's

6:23

body. Because I'm a painter.

6:25

You know, and I thought that was a natural thing.

6:28

The feeling that came through me was just

6:30

something I had never ever experienced before.

6:33

Was it a sexual feeling as

6:35

well as an emotional

6:36

connection, or was it just one or the other

6:38

at the start? think it was an emotional

6:40

first because I I had no idea what

6:43

else it would be. It's funny

6:45

because when I did my book, one of the questions that

6:47

I asked and I interviewed over a hundred women,

6:49

was when you first realized you were attracted

6:52

to another woman, was it an emotional connection

6:54

or sexual? And almost

6:56

everyone who identified this list being

6:58

said, it was an emotional connection. We

7:00

grew together. And those who identified

7:03

as bisexual

7:04

said it was a physical attraction.

7:06

So you went on and got married. How old

7:08

were you when you met your husband? I

7:10

was sixteen and I married

7:12

at nineteen. And we had two

7:14

children, a girl, and a boy, you know, two years

7:17

later and two years after that, Shes very traditional.

7:19

And I really never thought further ahead.

7:22

And then it was just out of the blue.

7:24

So eventually, I went to

7:26

the gay and lesbian center in Manhattan. It

7:29

was the most difficult thing I ever did.

7:31

There's no parking in Manhattan, and there was

7:33

a space right there. And I thought,

7:36

I'll drive around the Carren. And if it's

7:38

still there, then I'll go in. And I drove around

7:40

the and it was still there when I came back.

7:42

I said, let me do this again. Anyway,

7:45

I thought, okay, I have to get into this building.

7:47

And I remember walking in and thinking, people

7:49

could probably see my heart pounding. You

7:52

know, that's how nervous I was. And

7:54

I never forget I worked in and I went to the

7:56

counter and I said, Oh, that's me amazing.

7:58

I had to whisper, I couldn't even say the word,

8:01

but I walked in. It was a circle and everyone

8:03

was talking. And when it ended, I

8:06

said to myself this now or never. And I

8:08

said to the woman next to me, could we go for coffee?

8:11

And I just needed someone to talk to

8:13

to find out what this was all about. It

8:15

was quite something we did a

8:17

lot of talking. And then one day, we went to

8:19

the park with our cameras with both into photography.

8:21

And when we had

8:23

goodbye, all of a sudden, it's like,

8:25

I was wet. I was wet. And

8:29

I said, Carren you hug me again?

8:31

I couldn't believe

8:32

it, and the same thing happened. And so

8:34

I knew there was something to the physical part

8:36

of it.

8:36

So how old were you when you went to this

8:38

meeting? I was forty four when

8:41

I realized. I was still forty

8:43

four. This is a few weeks later that I went to

8:45

this meeting. Actually, I was married twenty five

8:47

years at the

8:47

time. When I made my discovery. So

8:49

I just wanna go back to that. During those

8:52

twenty five years with your husband, you've had two

8:54

beautiful Carren. You obviously have a great relationship

8:56

to stay married for twenty five years, but

8:59

did you continually have those thoughts or

9:01

was this a case of you suppressed them

9:03

or they just didn't exist at this

9:05

time? Never in million years. Actually,

9:07

I say that in my book, when I was

9:09

forty three, I would have said I know exactly

9:11

who and what I am and I am not a lesbian.

9:13

And one year later, I fell in love with this

9:15

woman. And I don't know. Had she

9:18

reciprocated my feelings, I might not have

9:20

gone further, but because she didn't, I

9:22

needed to be writing about my 50, I

9:24

needed to be finding

9:25

out. And I found out. And I think

9:27

that's something that a lot of women are

9:29

scared about. You just said it then. Forty

9:31

three. I wasn't

9:32

gay. I was happily married. Forty four. I

9:34

felt like I was a lesbian. And so a

9:36

lot of women say, well, like, my feelings can't be validated

9:39

because I'm married. I'm married. Right? I can't

9:41

be. But we both know that you absolutely

9:43

can be. A lot of people feel it that way.

9:46

Yeah. When I interviewed women,

9:48

they fell into different categories. One was

9:50

women who knew they were different, but had no name

9:52

for it. One was women

9:54

who actually knew they were lesbian, but did not

9:56

wanna tell anybody they were keeping a secret.

9:59

And the third group was myself.

10:01

It just came out of the blue.

10:03

You said that you went to

10:05

the, you know, the lesbian class as

10:07

you whispered. What other resources

10:09

did you have available to yourself at

10:11

that

10:11

time. Did anything exist to help you?

10:14

Eventually, I started going to therapy because

10:16

I needed someone to talk to. And what was

10:18

funny is I met the therapist years later.

10:21

And I told her I had written the book and that I

10:23

was totally out now. And she said,

10:25

I need to buy your book. I need to use it in

10:27

my practice. And I've gotten that

10:29

response from a lot of therapists. Very

10:32

few resources. They were women's bars.

10:35

I found myself in one, and just

10:37

talking to people. When I tell

10:39

people my story, they shared their stories.

10:41

And they said, oh, I have friend who, I have a sister

10:43

who, I have a cousin who, and they gave me

10:45

phone numbers and they gave me contact information.

10:48

And so I started speaking to women to

10:50

find out their stories and they wanted to hear my

10:52

Strock. And I had women

10:55

calling me from across the country, and

10:57

I realized that friends had seen

11:00

Shes that I put out and

11:02

mailed them out to their friends. Shes

11:04

book is a benchmark book. It

11:07

had never come out before. And it

11:09

was terrifying because here I'm going through this

11:11

and I realized that I

11:13

needed this to be a book because as I

11:15

said, I was a getsy woman, but there

11:17

are a lot of women that weren't. But

11:19

to do this, I had to connect to my family.

11:22

In the nineties, early nineties. When

11:24

people were buying the book, they were hiding it under their

11:26

coat or they were ripping off jacket and putting a different

11:29

jacket on the book so people wouldn't know

11:31

Now everybody is buying it. My

11:33

coming out and I think the book actually

11:36

saved me, you know, writing the

11:38

catharsis for

11:39

myself. It attracted a lot of women

11:41

to tell their stories that brought them over to me.

11:43

I want to go back to you. Just mention the

11:46

flyers that you were handing out. Can

11:48

you take us through that for those who aren't

11:50

aware of this

11:51

Strock. What made you want to do that?

11:53

When I started writing, I wasn't

11:55

out to many people. I was out to somebody from

11:57

my writer's group. We went to dinner,

11:59

and I said, what would you think if I wrote

12:01

my story? And she says, well,

12:03

truthfully, I don't think there's a big enough market

12:06

for something like that. A Strock a married

12:08

woman, loving woman. Anyway, I

12:10

dropped her off after we had dinner. And

12:12

early the next morning, she calls me and she says

12:14

Karen write the damn book. When she got

12:16

home, my husband was pacing the floor,

12:19

and he told her that his best friend's

12:21

wife had left his best friend

12:23

for another woman. And that was the first

12:25

time she had heard that other than in my story.

12:28

So I realized it might be a little

12:30

market for it, but then I wanted to write a short

12:32

story about it. And I did

12:34

that and miss Magazine was considering

12:36

it. The editor left and so it kind

12:39

of went into a draw. So I was at

12:41

a rightist conference and we were talking

12:43

about titles for books. And I was too

12:45

lazy to think of something, so I used the title that

12:47

I was gonna use on the short story, married

12:49

women who loved women. And all of a sudden, there

12:51

was a hush in the audience. And I looked

12:53

around, I thought, oh my god. There are about sixty women

12:55

here. I just added myself. Now, nobody's

12:57

gonna speak to me, and I'll be here all week.

13:00

All of a sudden, like, this woman raises her

13:02

hand and she says, how does a woman

13:04

make the discovery? Another woman says,

13:06

what kind of men have they married to? How do

13:08

children deal with it? And I realized

13:10

that their questions were universal questions.

13:13

You know, everyone had the same questions whether

13:15

they were gay or not or whether they

13:17

regain, didn't know it. That's

13:20

why I realized that a book

13:22

needed to be written. So I couldn't

13:24

find people to interview. They had women's

13:26

bookstores and I put up flyers.

13:29

I even left flyers if I went to a theater,

13:31

I left Shes flyers in the ladies rooms. I

13:33

don't know where they picked up the flyers because

13:35

I really didn't have them coded, but

13:38

people kept calling me. And it

13:40

reached a point where I had to talking

13:42

to people and put it all on paper. And

13:45

I realize there are a great many of us out there.

13:47

And it's a very normal Cachia thing.

13:50

If you're given three colors, red, yellow,

13:52

and blue, and you're asking what's your favorite color,

13:55

you're choosing from a limited palette. You

13:57

haven't seen chartreuse or orange

13:59

or purple. And it's the

14:01

same with years ago, little girls

14:03

returned around at about two years old and so you're

14:06

going to marry somebody like your daddy. They

14:08

didn't know they had choices. So

14:10

this is all very, very new when I was doing

14:12

this book. And now it's,

14:14

you know, it's a totally different category. Now

14:17

we had to add transcendent to the book

14:19

because so many women who thought they

14:21

were gay realized that they

14:23

weren't, that they were transgender.

14:25

So talk me through the process of

14:28

speaking to your children about this

14:30

because I do know that it's one of my

14:33

audience's biggest fears. It

14:35

was certainly one of mine as well.

14:37

The way I came out to my children is I came

14:39

out to each one

14:40

separately. And I had them read the introduction,

14:42

which I had started writing, which was my story.

14:45

And my daughter said, I never wanted to know what

14:47

you and dad were doing behind closers, and I don't

14:49

wanna know what you're doing, ma'am. And it was

14:51

funny because years later, my daughter says,

14:53

I think you and dad have one of the best marriage.

14:55

I know because you actually talk to each other. She

14:57

knows some gay, you know, and not bisexual. But

15:00

she says, because you talked to each other. So that was

15:02

like a blessing. I said, you know, you're

15:04

free if you wanna tell your friends about it. That's

15:06

fine. So she told one of your friends about it.

15:09

And then he came out to her because

15:11

she had shared my story. But my

15:13

son's friends were more into their theater

15:15

people and creative people. So he

15:17

was whatever it is, you know, it suits

15:19

your Strock. You wanna share it fine. I

15:22

started interviewing children for the book.

15:24

Not little one spent teenagers, all the

15:26

teenagers. Of everyone I spoke

15:29

to, and all their stories didn't make it into the pit.

15:31

But their biggest concern was

15:33

what will happen if one of you leaves? It

15:35

wasn't a concern about the sexuality

15:38

of the parent. It was what will happen to my

15:40

world. Will I have my same house?

15:42

Will I have my same room? Will I have to

15:44

move? Demand is a bigger concern

15:47

with children than sexuality of their

15:49

parents. Kids just need to hear the

15:51

truth. If you hide something from

15:53

them, the things they imagine might be far worse

15:55

than what you're hiding. And I think children

15:57

are much more aware than we give them credit

16:00

for as well.

16:01

Absolutely. Well, now it's no big

16:03

deal. It's basically their world.

16:05

It's healthy. What

16:06

about friends and social circles?

16:09

Back all those years ago, how

16:11

did that go down? We basically were

16:14

six couples that did a lot

16:15

together. And two of the girls

16:17

were my oldest friends from school. And

16:20

eventually, I came out to them and they were little

16:22

bit they weren't quite sure how to

16:24

deal with it. But as long

16:26

as I was dealing it, they were fine with it. My

16:28

neighbor, I used to walk with my neighbor, like, after

16:30

work every day would take long walk.

16:33

I came out to her. She came into the house

16:35

for me to help her with some sewing, and I said,

16:37

you have to hear this chapter, this paragraph. And

16:40

I read it without even thinking. And

16:42

she says, You're not gay. She says,

16:44

I work with gay people. I know exactly what

16:46

they look like and how they dress. And

16:48

I said, okay. Anyway, the next

16:50

time we took a watch, she said, Would you

16:53

look at that, man? What a great ass he

16:55

has in the toilet? He said, it's

16:57

okay. And I'm not gonna jump you.

17:00

I don't know what she was afraid of, but finally

17:02

Shes to me, we have similar

17:04

houses, similar families, similar lifestyles.

17:07

And if you could wake up one day and realize you

17:09

were gay, Shes same thing could happen

17:11

to me. And that's what her concern

17:13

was. And they said to her, wouldn't be such

17:15

a terrible thing? I

17:18

live by three and I believe

17:20

they were, like, gifts for doing this,

17:22

but the first is no expectations,

17:24

no disappointments, I just show up. The

17:27

second is no one knows what you're thinking

17:29

unless you say the words. And

17:32

the third one is It's not about

17:34

me. If I tell someone I'm

17:36

a lesbian and they can't deal with it, it's

17:38

their problem. I'm perfectly okay

17:40

with who and what I am. And

17:43

those three things have made my life much

17:45

easier, much simpler. That's put a big

17:47

smile on my face. I loved that last line.

17:50

My big question here, which everyone

17:52

would want to know, how do you

17:54

tell your husband that you are

17:56

gay after so many years? It

17:58

was difficult.

17:59

We sat and we talked, and then he

18:02

took a walk, like, for hours. You know?

18:05

At one point, we thought about separating,

18:09

but we were at a point where my daughter was looking

18:11

for an apartment. And I said, you know what?

18:13

Let's wait until she settles. Because

18:15

if she feels like she's gonna have to get a bigger

18:17

place, take care of father, take care of her mother,

18:19

that's not fair to her. And so

18:22

while we waited, we just started

18:24

talking. And it worked. I

18:26

know my husband, since I'm sixteen years old,

18:29

I wouldn't throw him away and he wouldn't throw me away.

18:32

People say, what's your lesbian? I

18:34

say, yes. There are a lot

18:36

of people in celibate relationships, whether

18:38

they're heterosexual or homosexual. That

18:41

could be in celebrate relationships. We're

18:43

brought up to think that everything has to be in

18:45

a pigeonhole. You know, if I shop

18:47

in Macy's and you shop in Sears,

18:50

Maybe I'm in the wrong

18:51

store. You know, people are so afraid

18:53

of stepping out of their little box and

18:55

they're afraid of anyone else who has stepped

18:57

out of the box. That it's life.

19:00

So to clarify for our listeners, you

19:02

are currently still living with your

19:04

husband. We're in a redefined relationship.

19:08

We have our own bedrooms. Anyone

19:10

have friends with knows what my situation is

19:12

and if they can't deal with

19:13

it, so be it. You know, if they can

19:15

deal with it, that's fine. And does this

19:17

dynamic of your relationship allow

19:20

other partners to come

19:22

in? One of the reasons it works

19:24

is because I don't share anything about

19:26

my husband and

19:27

I don't share much about myself. It

19:30

works for you. That's your dynamic.

19:32

It works for you. I love that. I think it's

19:34

very inspirational. You

19:35

know, there are a lot of women that think as soon as they

19:37

realize that they're gay. They think they have to

19:39

leave, but they have other choices. There's

19:42

not one choice. In the

19:44

third edition of my book, there's a chapter four,

19:46

would it should it could And I've interviewed

19:49

lot of women that I had previously interviewed

19:51

to see if they were happy that they made the

19:53

decision to stay or to leave or if

19:56

they were not happy with it. And

19:58

everyone's story is different.

20:08

You seem like a very well,

20:10

you're very courageous, you're very brave,

20:12

you've shown that from a very young age.

20:14

How did you get to that point of acceptance?

20:17

Because I think that's the biggest challenge

20:20

for women who are navigating through these

20:22

feelings of accepting this is

20:24

who I am and it is different from everything

20:26

I've ever

20:26

known. It was difficult. went through a lot

20:29

of crying jags. You know, I would just

20:31

break down so I would go out into the Carren sit

20:33

and the car and cry. I went to women's bars,

20:36

I don't drink, but I needed to

20:38

be near people who knew who I was.

20:40

I didn't have to talk to them. I just

20:42

needed to be in that environment. It

20:45

was over a period of time, but when I started

20:47

my catharsis with my writing, Things

20:50

seemed to fall into place. I

20:52

didn't just come out waving a flag and saying

20:54

yes, but eventually, I

20:57

guess I did, you know, with the book

20:59

coming out, I had to tell everybody, and

21:01

my story threads through the book. One

21:03

of the things that I found about it was that

21:06

I had originally written a short Strock. And

21:08

when I looked back at it, it

21:10

was very generic. You

21:12

know, I was keeping away from the real

21:14

issues. And when I did the book,

21:17

I realized it needed to be truthful.

21:19

And the only way people could take it truthfully

21:22

is if I was truthful about it, which

21:24

meant had to come out. You know,

21:26

people said, well, you could have written under a different name,

21:28

but it wouldn't have been an honest

21:30

book. And this book is an honest

21:32

book. You just made a comment then

21:34

when you were going out to gay

21:36

bars. You said, people knew

21:38

who I was. You could be your true authentic

21:41

self. I've found the queer

21:43

community here in Australia. I call it

21:45

my safe

21:45

space. I just feel like I live my most

21:48

authentic self and I'm so accepted

21:51

Did you feel that instant acceptance in

21:53

these environments?

21:54

I did. You know, it was a little uncomfortable because

21:56

I'd never been to a bar before. I just like,

21:58

it's a little drunk. But I started going

22:01

to women's conferences and

22:04

women's weekends. And it was just,

22:06

it's like letting your hair down. It's like being

22:08

free. It's an amazing feeling. And

22:10

I think had I not been allowed to do this? You

22:12

know, there's some marriages that are somebody I

22:14

interviewed said. Stay away from

22:16

all those people, don't attend any of

22:18

those things, and I'll buy you a new car. It's

22:21

never about us, some husbands can

22:23

deal with it, and some can't. One

22:25

person said, I don't wanna rock my boat.

22:27

I'm in a comfortable place. And if

22:30

she needs this extra to make

22:32

her life

22:32

happier, than Soviet,

22:35

you know, and those are the marriages that worked.

22:37

To the women who are listening to

22:39

this, and I know that there will be plenty

22:42

who are aware of

22:44

their feelings, but they are scared

22:46

to do something about it. They don't wanna

22:48

rock the boat. Like you just

22:50

said, what advice would you have for

22:52

them? Nobody can tell anyone

22:54

else you must. When I was first discovering

22:56

myself, people said to me, you must

22:58

leave you marriage. You must do this.

23:00

And then somebody said, you're no

23:02

musts. You do what's

23:04

comfortable for you. Because once

23:06

the words are

23:07

out, they can never be taken back. And

23:09

I always remembered that.

23:11

I love that. There's so many things you've

23:13

said during this interview where I'm sitting here

23:16

just nodding away to myself.

23:18

No. I just hope it helps a lot of women out

23:20

there. I had a chance to be on the

23:22

Oprah show, and I turned it down. Biggest

23:24

mistake I ever made. Because the

23:26

title was I had a horrendous secret and

23:29

was estranged from my family and then they forgave

23:31

me. And it's not a horrendous

23:33

secret. So what I should have done is gone

23:35

on and said, while some people think it's

23:37

a horrendous secret. It's actually just another

23:39

dimension. So that was big

23:41

mistake I made because women would

23:44

have benefited by knowing there was a book

23:46

out there for

23:46

them. Do you think it's really important

23:49

for women to understand that different dimension?

23:51

Shes society can drugs were being under

23:53

for so long, the roles

23:55

that were perceived to have been given,

23:58

you are clearly a pioneer in the space

24:00

of shaking that up and saying

24:02

no. It is shaking things up and

24:04

it was at the time when I thought of the book,

24:06

I thought, you know, there are a lot of crises out

24:08

there. They could harm my family. They

24:11

could harm me. And then one

24:13

night I was sitting and it just

24:15

came to me. You're supposed to be

24:17

writing this book, and don't worry about what

24:19

will happen afterward.

24:21

Like it took the angst away from myself,

24:23

I took it away, and I was able to do this.

24:26

So what was society like towards

24:28

gay women when you were first experiencing

24:31

this? I can only come from where

24:33

I was. I went to the center.

24:35

I met somebody to talk to.

24:37

I learned a lot about what she had gone

24:39

through and how she was dealing with it.

24:42

When I came out, it was

24:45

near to the late nineties. You know,

24:47

I found out in the early nineties and and that's

24:49

when I started writing for myself. But

24:52

people who are terrified of saying anything.

24:54

This one woman interviewed in the middle of the

24:56

night, she said, you know, if I said

24:58

the word, and my neighbor was walking by

25:00

and heard me

25:00

say, lesbian, he'd shoot me with a shotgun,

25:03

and my husband would be okay with that. You

25:05

know, New York and California, the coasts

25:07

are a lot more current than Middle Shes.

25:11

People are still afraid. Well, that was going

25:13

to be my next question. What's the biggest

25:15

change you've seen? But you just said then people

25:17

are still a

25:18

fried. Acceptance, more acceptance among

25:20

families. Years ago, the biggest

25:23

concern really was if two women

25:25

were together or two men they'd never be

25:27

grandparents. And now so

25:29

much changed in that. It's like they can take

25:31

a step back and

25:32

say, okay, it doesn't matter. So

25:34

that's a very big difference. Knowing

25:36

all that you do now, Karen, and

25:38

all the experiences, the huge

25:41

amount of life experience that you've had

25:44

How do you feel within your

25:45

heart of discovering her? I

25:48

feel as though I was supposed to write it.

25:50

I can't say I'm fabulous writer. I just

25:53

I write simply and I don't point

25:55

fingers. I just tell the story. I

25:57

feel blessed. I really do that. I was

25:59

able to do this to make this

26:01

contribution. And it was funny because

26:04

when I finished the book, I thought, I guess,

26:06

this is what I was put here to do, you know,

26:08

to help women. But, like, the next

26:10

day I'm saying to myself, okay, what do I wanna do

26:13

now? You know, instead of

26:15

I finished and I'm good. I'm a very eclectic

26:17

writer. I continued writing. When I

26:19

was in college, I had a secret dream of being

26:21

a writer. I'd never written anything before.

26:24

And all the papers came back in this first English

26:26

class, everyone had a a's and b's and I had a

26:28

c. So went to the teacher afterward,

26:30

the professor, and he said, what Carren I do to improve

26:32

my writing? And he said, honey, some people

26:35

are writers and some art, and you're not a writer.

26:38

I believed him and didn't pick up a pen for

26:40

more than fifteen years. This

26:42

was part of the reason I feel that I'm

26:45

a writer because I was supposed to do this.

26:47

But I'm a very eclectic writer now. I've written

26:49

books for Carren. I've written for young adults.

26:52

And I did another Elizabethan paranormal

26:54

cold tangled ribbons, which

26:56

I really like. I'm comfortable with who

26:58

and Shes I am. You know, I'd like to lose a little

27:00

weight. To lose a

27:02

mess. Now, Karen,

27:04

I've finished all of the interviews with

27:06

this same question. And so

27:08

far, everyone has interpreted

27:11

it differently, so take it as you will.

27:13

But what is your favorite thing that

27:15

a woman can do for you? Be themselves.

27:19

You know, step out of the box, and don't

27:21

worry about what other people are

27:22

thinking. Do what works for you.

27:25

Karen, thank you so much for

27:27

opening up and sharing part of your

27:29

story. Married women who love

27:31

women third edition

27:32

now, Karen Stroke. Thank you so

27:35

much for your time today. I was just

27:37

told it's going to be a classic It's

27:39

coming out as a classic addition, so it's very

27:42

exciting. Yeah. I don't use the

27:44

term Pioneer or Trailblazer live

27:46

but Karen is just that. I

27:49

have such deep admiration for her for

27:51

not only taking ownership of her sexuality

27:53

at a time where it was seen as taboo, but

27:56

for changing and saving

27:58

the lives of so many others in her

28:00

wake. Karen Strock is

28:02

exactly who I needed six

28:04

years ago when I was stuck in my own

28:06

self discovery journey. And I really

28:09

hope that she's bought some light and clarity

28:11

for you as well. If you wanna get your hands

28:13

on a copy of Karen's book, we have

28:15

popped a link in the show notes. If

28:17

you want unlimited access to her in

28:19

a special bonus for this episode, I'm

28:21

joined by sex columnist Cachia and

28:24

we talk all of out what to expect when

28:26

having sex with a woman for the very

28:28

first time. He is a snippet. When

28:31

you're beginning your queer sexual journey,

28:34

just the fridge up with a lot

28:36

of gatorade like a lot.

28:38

You're gonna need it. You're going to need it

28:40

and some snacks. Keep some snacks by

28:42

the bed and do some fresh wipes.

28:46

That's just a waste. Let's get these

28:48

biceps going. There's lots of

28:51

girls happening. Let's get

28:53

conditioned. There's a link to

28:55

listen at the top of the show notes. And

28:58

next week well, next week,

29:00

we with you probably

29:03

the most emotional interview I've

29:05

done for the

29:05

series. I shed

29:08

tears in this interview because it really

29:10

did hit a nerve and probably not

29:12

for the reasons you think once

29:15

that light bulb turned on.

29:18

So did everything else. It

29:21

was astounding how

29:23

differently I saw the world. On

29:25

one hand, I was Well,

29:28

this is so amazing. This

29:30

is so amazing. You know,

29:32

I laughed and I cried and I had just

29:35

just terror inside of me, but

29:37

I also had this joy and

29:39

I didn't know what to do with it. I

29:42

didn't have any gay friends. I

29:44

went to a therapist. I

29:47

had a lot of internalized homophobia. I

29:49

must still do to some extent. And

29:52

I Carren gay

29:54

for a very long time. I couldn't

29:56

say I'm gay for a very long time. If

29:59

you love Shes podcast, don't forget to subscribe

30:01

and leave us a little review while you're at it.

30:03

And if you have a story that you would

30:05

love to share, please email me at

30:08

podcast at Mamamia dot com

30:10

dot au. With unlimited access

30:12

to world class podcasts, stories,

30:14

videos, and events for women, so subscribe

30:17

to Mamma Mia and feel seen and heard

30:19

like never before. I'll see you next

30:21

week.