0:01

Welcome to the Head Shepherd podcast . I'm your host

0:03

, mark Ferguson , ceo here at NextGen Agri

0:05

International , where we help livestock managers

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get the best out of their stock Before we get started

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, and now it's time to get on with this week's episode . Welcome

0:41

back to Head Shepherd . We're getting a few scanning results coming

0:43

out of Australia , with a few gaps in

0:45

where lambs are being

0:47

conceived , which sparked a

0:49

conversation around heat stress . So if you've

0:51

done a bit of reading and checked out what

0:53

could be happening , yeah

0:55

, we looked at .

0:57

We were discussing this in our live hub event

1:00

last week and I came across a

1:02

paper which is the review of the

1:04

impact of heat stress on reproductive performance

1:06

on sheep . So obviously answering

1:08

some questions for us . So basically , heat

1:10

stress is classed as anything below 12 degrees

1:13

and over 32 degrees . You can

1:15

probably assume that heat stress

1:17

will disrupt fertility and use , semen

1:19

quality in rams and embryonic development

1:21

in lambs . So it's like an overreaching

1:23

effect really on fertility

1:26

. So in this paper I will preface

1:28

this by saying that if nighttime temperatures

1:30

drop significantly , a lot of these

1:32

effects aren't as significant . Unfortunately

1:34

the paper doesn't tell us what that significant drop

1:37

is , but luckily for us we're

1:39

having the author of the paper on the podcast in a

1:41

few weeks so we can ask him then . But

1:43

back to the results . If we start with the use

1:45

, trials show that the heat stress

1:47

most effects use in the five days leading

1:49

up to ovulation and the first five days

1:51

after ovulation . Heat stress after

1:54

day eight of ovulation didn't affect

1:56

fertility . So heat stress also

1:59

reduces the duration of estrus

2:01

. How much it's shortened depend on the timing

2:04

of the heat stress , with trials showing a reduction

2:06

in estrus behavior between eight

2:08

to five hours , so eight to five hours

2:10

less time that they're standing and cycling

2:13

for the REM . And it can also impact

2:15

the whole cycle length , making it longer by

2:17

nearly two days in some cases . One

2:19

trial showed that for every additional day

2:22

above 32 degrees that's

2:24

prolonged exposure lambing percentages

2:26

decreased by around 3% . So

2:29

a lot of this is down to , like , the follicle development in

2:31

the youth and that being disrupted . And

2:34

you know these are all of the knock-on effects

2:36

and because of that there's also a knock-on

2:38

effect on lamb birth weight because

2:40

of poor placental development and

2:42

everything that goes alongside that . And

2:44

then there's also effects on lab

2:46

survival and growth , with

2:49

heat stress in various parts

2:51

of pregnancy . And then , finally , the semen

2:53

quality . As

2:55

we know , it's sort of the 60 days leading up

2:57

to mating where the semen's being made . So

3:00

heat stress in any part of that

3:02

60 days can cause issues with

3:04

the amount of sperm motility and

3:06

structural abnormalities . So there's

3:08

a lot going on and there's so many numbers

3:10

and figures that I could throw at you

3:13

, but we're going to have William on the podcast in a few

3:15

weeks . So , yeah , that should be

3:17

not too short , but a bit of a teaser

3:19

for you .

3:21

Excellent . So , yeah , it's going to be great to have that chat . We're

3:23

hearing plenty of reports and I

3:25

remember Brett Smith on the live mentioning lighter

3:27

birth weights , and that's obviously been then shown

3:30

in that paper as well . So , yeah , lots of interesting area

3:32

there . Obviously , people can throw

3:34

some questions . Jump on the hub and put some questions into

3:37

us . We've got that interview coming

3:39

up so if you get in quick , we can tailor

3:41

those questions we ask so that if you've got any burning

3:44

things you'd love to know , we can make sure we ask those

3:46

questions . So jump on the hub and put those

3:48

in there . That'd be awesome . This week on the podcast

3:50

, we welcome back Rob Bell . Rob's the co-founder

3:52

and CTO at ProAgni and

3:55

we have a really great chat around managing

3:57

the rumen fermentation process , really , which

4:00

is what we're doing when we're managing ruminant nutrition

4:02

. He's

4:07

a really great guy to explain some pretty complex science in a way that all of us can understand

4:09

, which is fantastic . So I really enjoyed this chat with

4:11

Rob . As I mentioned in the podcast , if

4:14

you haven't gone back and listened to his weiner

4:16

one , we talked about weaning process

4:18

. That was a great podcast as well . Most people

4:20

enjoyed that , but this one's a really , really great

4:22

foundation in how to manage room and nutrition

4:25

and and why managing ph

4:27

is a really important part of that . Right , I will

4:29

get underway with the interview with rob bell .

4:33

Welcome rob bell back to head shepherd thanks

4:36

, sir , good to be uh back on head shepherd excellent

4:38

mate .

4:39

We don't get many people . Two goes . You must have been all right

4:41

first time but um , we've . We have had

4:43

great feedback on on the weaning

4:45

episode . If you haven't listened to that , anybody out there

4:47

jump on and listen to rob's chat

4:49

on on weaning . But today we thought we'd sort of

4:51

focus , I guess , more on general nutrition and , uh

4:54

, depending on where people are , there's

4:56

I guess there's always different

4:59

seasonal systems , but particularly

5:01

our new zealand listeners have

5:04

been through a pretty tough dry time

5:06

in parts of Aussie too

5:08

. I guess it's a pretty broad topic

5:10

, but I guess key strategies

5:12

during dry times . Rob , what are we looking at ?

5:15

When you reached out to have this conversation , ferg

5:17

, I really thought about it from a perspective

5:19

of going back to the core principles

5:22

of how those animals work and just sort

5:24

of trying to paint a picture of what we need to consider , what we need

5:26

to think about and it doesn't matter whether it's wet , dry

5:28

or in between . I guess we've been conditioned

5:30

over the years to think about these animals as you

5:33

know , herbivores . You know they

5:35

eat grass and digest grass . But you

5:37

know , the way I think we should be thinking about it is they're

5:39

a little bit more specialised than that and they're

5:42

more of a what we'd

5:44

call , say , a fermentable . So what

5:46

they actually digest is is the sludge

5:48

and the and the byproducts of bacterial

5:50

fermentation . So if we think about

5:52

everything in context of what we put down an

5:54

animal's throat and how it impacts on fermentation

5:57

, how does it influence bug populations

6:00

, and then the resulting outcome of that

6:02

fermentation is what really drives both

6:05

the production and the profitability of enterprises

6:07

, and it doesn't matter whether it's here in New Zealand

6:10

or anywhere in between . A ruminant , basically , is

6:12

a ruminant that relies upon a

6:14

really diverse microbial population to

6:16

drive fermentation that drives

6:18

the byproducts of growth and protein

6:21

. So these bugs and these bacteria

6:23

sit in that foregut of the ruminant and

6:26

produce around 80% of all the energy

6:28

and all the protein that the animal uses . So , going

6:30

back to those cores around , you

6:33

know whether it was dry feeding or production feeding

6:35

supplementation around . You

6:37

know how well does that product . Ferment is

6:39

most probably the key consideration at every decision

6:42

point .

6:43

Yeah , good point and yeah

6:45

, I guess the key factors there are

6:47

. Well , for

6:52

most of the time it's digestibility of that feed in terms of grass , and then energy

6:54

content , protein content if it's a supplement . But it's all about

6:56

making sure that you've

6:58

got a healthy room and

7:01

make sure it's buffering appropriately with

7:03

roughage if you haven't got it . So , yeah

7:05

, I mean , particularly this time of year where people are going from

7:07

maybe a concentrate-heavy

7:10

feed where they've got a bit of rain , they'll be going on to setting

7:12

them out onto something that's 85-plus

7:15

water and they're actually

7:17

running around and actually need a bit of roughage . All

7:19

those things have got to keep being considered .

7:21

Yeah , it

7:25

really gets back to to , I think about how we understand the measurements that go against . You

7:27

know the parameters . So , whether it's megajoules of energy , whether

7:29

it's crude protein , if we understand what

7:32

that actually means , I think it gives us an insight on

7:34

how to select and choose

7:36

what sort of components we need to add

7:38

to to round out the fermentation pattern

7:41

. And I always think about it a little bit coarsely

7:43

, I guess , is that if we we understand what a megajoule

7:45

of energy is , as you know , if we took our mobile

7:47

phone and lifted it a meter and then dropped

7:49

it , that's effectively jewel

7:51

. It's about a measure of energy and work

7:54

. And similarly , I like to think

7:56

about it then in terms of a heat side

7:58

of things , is it's how well does something burn

8:00

to raise , raise water temperature , and

8:02

so start to think about it from

8:04

its digestibility , like

8:06

you said . So things like NDF in that

8:08

feed can play a really important role in total

8:11

intakes . And then the digestibility , so

8:13

how much of it is actually being utilized

8:15

from an energy perspective . And

8:17

then , if we think about the protein side of things , is

8:19

, you know , animal requirements for protein

8:22

, in my opinion , get overdone considerably

8:25

a lot of the time . A newborn animal . 20%

8:28

, 22% is where it sort of peaks

8:30

out at and as we get down to a dry

8:32

animal in a dry phase of production

8:35

, we're back to 7% and 8% crude protein

8:37

levels . But the real key , important point

8:39

around that is crude protein is only actually using

8:42

a multiplication of the nitrogen

8:44

component of that food to give us a number

8:46

. So if we understand that it's actually

8:48

only a reflection of nitrogen , not a reflection

8:50

of the quality of that protein

8:53

and proteins made up of essential

8:55

amino acids , basically that work

8:57

together to give us our building blocks for production

8:59

and our proteins , which are

9:01

meat , milk , wool and and fiber and

9:03

new progeny , so understanding that energy

9:06

is not energy and protein is not protein , we need

9:08

to think about it from that perspective of how's

9:10

it going to interact within that fermentation tank

9:13

of the animal and what are those bacteria

9:15

species going to do with that in terms

9:17

of the style of fermentation that it'll produce

9:19

. And I guess the classic that when we

9:21

see concentration feeding of high

9:24

grain diets , we start to drop highly

9:26

fermentable carbohydrates in there and they are

9:28

fantastic for fermentation , but the byproducts

9:30

of fermentation then become a real risk to

9:32

the animal and the profit of the business

9:34

through things like subclinical and clinical lactic

9:37

acidosis , where dead sheep , dead

9:39

cattle are a real common outcome

9:41

from that . So understanding when

9:44

we make a decision , how well does it ferment and how do we manage

9:46

that fermentation , is critical .

9:49

Yeah , and I reckon we're definitely

9:52

about to get to grain feeding . I guess just one thing

9:54

I think people have maybe thought , when they've

9:56

seen really high production of legumes

9:58

, that that's because of the protein component of that feed

10:01

that's driving that production , whereas really it's

10:03

often that's the digestibility

10:05

of those legumes what's driving the

10:07

production of those feeds , and

10:09

so people kind of get this link from protein

10:11

to production , whereas there's

10:13

definitely a link from legumes to production . But most

10:15

of that's about lack of fiber and

10:17

stuff in those legumes and they can really easily digestible

10:20

.

10:21

Well , I mean , you take a feed test and one of the first

10:23

numbers I always look for is NDF , so neutral

10:26

detergent fiber , because it's a real indicator

10:28

of intakes . So

10:30

the rough rule of thumb is 120

10:32

divided by NDF gives us percentage of body weight

10:34

intake . So

10:36

a dried , paid off mature type

10:39

of pasture with an NDF of 60%

10:41

. 120 divided by 60 is only 2%

10:44

of body weight intake . Where we cut

10:46

something back to like a rapidly growing

10:48

legume where NDFs

10:50

could be sub 30 . We're starting to see three

10:53

4% of body weight intake . It's a huge

10:55

difference in intake as

10:57

a result of that .

11:00

Yeah , yeah , so yeah , moving on . Moving

11:02

on to grain , and I think this

11:05

year more than any I've sort of heard people that are

11:08

feeding grain , maybe not for the first time , but

11:10

certainly early on it , particularly

11:12

in New Zealand where it has been dry and in

11:15

places that would normally not have to worry about

11:17

feeding grain . But I guess a lot of people probably

11:19

fumbling and feeling their way on

11:22

kind of how much to feed , and I think we underestimate

11:25

, like people kind of think , well

11:27

, they've gone , all right , I haven't killed any to feed . And I think we

11:29

underestimate , like people kind of think , well , they've gone , all

11:31

right , I haven't killed any . But the subclinical acidosis can be as damaging

11:33

to productivity and profitability If you've got a whole

11:35

mob , that's sort of a bit crook versus

11:39

actually tipping some over the edge

11:41

. It's equally as bad or

11:43

can be as bad . I guess recommendations

11:45

around introducing feed

11:47

and I'm keen to hear about the role of

11:49

the pro-agony product in

11:51

introducing grain or maintaining

11:54

that healthy fermentation in the rumen .

11:58

I was taught a very good lesson early on

12:00

. It's dead . Sheep are cheap to feed . You know it's the

12:02

sick ones that cost us a lot of money . So

12:06

you know the cost of subclinical

12:08

acidosis I think is completely

12:10

underestimated . And

12:12

if we talk about it from a fermentation

12:15

perspective is is the rumen never gets bored

12:17

. It is just relying on being

12:20

this stable , comfortable environment

12:22

for bacteria , fungi , protozoa to do

12:24

their job , which is to to pull carbohydrates

12:26

apart and then reassemble them into volatile

12:28

fatty acids and new bugs effectively

12:30

. When we start to add highly fermentable

12:32

carbohydrates in there , as little

12:35

as 200 or 300 grams of grain

12:37

in a sheep can basically double

12:39

the number of bacteria

12:41

in that room . You start to talk

12:43

about 10 to the 6th , 10 to the 7th , so

12:46

pretty large numbers of microbes in there

12:48

on a dry feed scenario . If

12:50

we double that we start to get to 10

12:52

to the 14th . It's a huge population

12:55

expansion over a really quick timeframe

12:57

. So when we do that , those

12:59

bugs start to pull those rapidly fermentable carbohydrates

13:02

apart . They then start to release

13:04

compounds like lactic acid . That lactic

13:06

acid then changes the ruminal pH . That

13:08

ruminal pH changes the environment of

13:10

the rumen and bacterial

13:13

species are really sensitive to those changes and they

13:15

start to die . So when we start

13:17

to see a massive increase in fermentation

13:20

and an increased spike in lactic acid

13:22

production , rumen pH drops , bacterial

13:24

species die and they start to wash through the rumen

13:26

really quick . So the end result in that

13:29

is a smelly , grey

13:31

, runny feces and it's basically just

13:33

a bucket load of dead bacteria , which are

13:35

our profit drivers in the business . So

13:37

when we approach nutrition

13:39

, I think the first thing we need to think about is how do we stabilize

13:42

, how do we maintain fermentation , how do we

13:44

introduce changes to diet

13:46

carefully ? And for me it's always

13:49

about this stepping up of a little

13:51

bit often is a great way rather than a

13:53

large amount once . So typically

13:55

in a feeding program we'll start to feed at 50

13:58

, 70 grams per head per day increments just

14:00

to step those animals up . And it's as much

14:02

about the change fermentation patterns

14:04

as it is in the change of social behavior

14:07

within those animals . And I've become really reluctant

14:09

to increase increments

14:11

of grain much beyond sort of

14:13

75 grams per head per day until we have , you

14:16

know , 90 of those animals eating and eating

14:18

well , because we we need to educate

14:20

, train , uh , and I guess reinforce

14:23

the process that naive animals are the

14:25

ones that will absolutely die

14:27

. Because if you have 10% of the mob that aren't

14:29

feeding and they progressively

14:31

get hungrier and hungrier at day six or

14:33

seven or eight or nine and we're starting to see 300

14:35

, 400 grams of grain in front of those animals

14:38

on an individual basis a naive animal that

14:40

eats that , it's basically guaranteed to

14:42

die . So from

14:44

a practical standpoint I'm always about

14:46

slow , incremental adjustments

14:49

and frequency . So a little bit often

14:51

up to three or four times a day , is a great

14:53

way to step forward . The side

14:55

of subclinical acidosis that I think people

14:57

don't value enough is

15:00

the role that really good , high-quality buffering

15:02

plays in that . And you alluded to the pro-agony

15:04

side of things . We've spent the last eight

15:06

years really trying to understand how

15:09

can we maintain stability of fermentation

15:11

and optimize this ph

15:13

range so that the bugs are sort

15:16

of comfortable and can digest

15:19

and ferment this food at a rate of knots that allows

15:21

it to be utilized as volatile

15:24

fatty acids and not be converted to lactic acid

15:26

, which is our real enemy in that grain

15:28

feeding system . So you know the amount of work

15:30

, the amount of research , the collaboration we've

15:32

had with a lot of institutes , both domestically

15:35

here and overseas , is really starting to show that

15:37

the tighter that pH banding

15:39

that we can get , the better outcomes in terms

15:41

of quality of volatile fatty acids but

15:43

also the volume . So the more volatile

15:45

fatty acids we have , the more

15:47

energy that's available for that animal . But it also

15:49

outcompletes lactic acid production , so you

15:52

sort of get the ratios around the right way

15:54

. So once we start to do that , we

15:57

smooth out , I guess , some of the stress

16:00

points within digestion where any

16:02

toxins that are produced in the body tend to go

16:04

through the liver for filtration . So

16:07

the liver's a really interesting organ is that it's

16:09

responsible for filtering

16:11

the blood , but it also stores

16:13

and manufactures and regulates

16:15

the things like vitamin A and vitamin D

16:18

and vitamin E which are real key drivers around

16:20

immunity . So when we have an

16:22

animal that's under stress nutritionally

16:24

and has sort of levels of metabolic distress

16:26

, the liver function goes really high . Its

16:29

ability to regulate key nutrients

16:31

for immunity become less

16:33

successful . And the next thing we know we've

16:36

got a lot of sick animals . Things like respiratory disease

16:38

, coughs , snotty noses , pink

16:40

eye are all just an outcome of

16:42

subclinical acidosis that hasn't

16:44

been managed well , primarily due

16:46

to the immunity function not being

16:48

able to kick in at the right pace . So I

16:50

guess that's where we're really focused is how do we dovetail

16:52

liver health , managing ruminal pH

16:55

and then maximizing animal

16:57

production from a stability

17:00

of fermentation to really drive what

17:02

these animals are capable of . It

17:05

really leads into the

17:07

pressure that we're seeing from an industry globally

17:10

that our efficiencies are being

17:12

targeted . So we

17:14

are responsible for lifting our efficiencies

17:16

and you know if the best

17:19

way to lift efficiencies is

17:21

manage it better , but it drives our profitability

17:23

but then can actually take the spotlight off us on

17:25

some of the environmental what's the

17:27

word , to be politically correct pressure

17:29

that we're having applied to us

17:32

as a red meat and remnant sector

17:35

, both intensively and extensively . Yeah

17:37

, it's a very complicated space

17:40

, but I think if we can control which is in our farm

17:42

gate , our animals at home , and make

17:44

more money by being efficient , by

17:46

managing these animals in a way that are welfare-wise

17:49

, healthy and safe , everything

17:51

else seems to fall in line behind it .

17:54

Yeah , I think a really good point . I think that whole

17:56

yeah

17:58

, we are here to make more money , essentially , or

18:00

help farmers make more money , and a healthy

18:03

rumen is the way to achieve that

18:05

yeah , they are just rumens on

18:07

legs , really . I

18:09

guess , practically what does that mean in terms of

18:11

getting a buffer into the diet , and

18:13

how , when , what , how much ? I

18:16

guess , without getting into too much detail . But , yeah , what's the

18:18

some out there ? Practically what does this mean

18:20

?

18:22

Look . A normal recommendation is we've

18:24

got a product called Protect S and Protect

18:26

C S for sheep , c for cattle , 5%

18:29

inclusion basically covers off vitamins

18:31

, minerals and buffering . It's pretty simple

18:33

and it's designed to be simple Two

18:36

bags to the ton type of

18:38

mixing . Really , we

18:40

don't want to create jobs , we don't want to create headaches , we want

18:42

to make it simple , really , just

18:45

focusing on having

18:47

the comfort that this is really

18:49

good science . That's not . I

18:51

hate the word snake oil , but there is a lot of products

18:54

out there that claim things that don't have the science to back it

18:56

up . We've spent a lot of time

18:58

and money validating , getting science

19:00

and getting proof around what we're trying to achieve

19:03

, because I was frustrated as

19:05

a consultant in the industry that there's so many claims

19:07

being made but no data to back it up . So

19:10

we've gone down that path so that producers

19:12

can pick it up off the shelf and know that there

19:15

is a product out there that does have the

19:17

science to back up its claims . And

19:19

the other point that I think is really relevant

19:21

in this is the way markets are trending

19:24

, particularly with our export

19:26

trends overseas is the use of

19:28

things like ionophores . So you know , you've tried

19:30

known products like remencin and bovitec , um

19:32

, they are becoming less and less acceptable

19:34

in , you know , overseas export markets . So

19:36

part of the challenge we saw , you know , seven

19:38

or eight years ago is how do we pull them out and do it safely

19:41

? So you know , they are basically

19:43

antibiotic compounds , so they kill bacteria

19:45

, so they actually they may

19:47

make the animal safe , but how well does it contribute

19:49

to to our productivity in terms

19:51

of , you know , microbial diversity and

19:53

and total volatile fatty acid production

19:56

and all those sort of things ? So we've really taken

19:58

that pull through consumer angle

20:00

seriously that our export markets are

20:02

highly valuable for us . You know , in

20:04

australia 75 of red meat is exported

20:07

and we need to be able to adapt

20:09

to consumer demands . The

20:11

likes of Europe , the US

20:14

, they are just even China

20:16

they're really starting to put the hammer down

20:18

, saying we do not want these compounds in our food

20:20

, so we needed some solutions . So that's

20:22

, I guess , the space we've been working on is making

20:24

the rumen feeding safe in intensive feeding

20:27

systems and then doing it without basically

20:29

antibiotics cool .

20:31

So I'm just going to go back

20:33

and chat antibiotics in terms of industry use

20:35

of ionophores or antibiotics

20:37

, the . You just told us how important rumen

20:40

bacteria are . Now you're telling us we're feeding

20:42

stuff to kill rumen bacteria . Tell us what

20:45

they do and and why . Why

20:47

that ? Why why that's a strategy .

20:49

Well , I mean , they're a pretty poor class

20:52

of bacteria . You

20:54

have gram-negative , you have gram-positive . There's

20:56

two basic classes of bacteria

20:58

and they're designed to kill one of them . They're

21:01

an ion disruptor , so they basically

21:03

destroy the cell walls , and

21:05

that is not only of the bad bacteria that

21:07

produce lactic acid , but they also impact the diversity

21:10

of a lot of other species . And that's

21:12

a lot of the work we've been playing with is how do

21:14

we use the latest gene technology

21:16

to understand who's in the zoo and what

21:18

their roles are ? So it's been a

21:21

really interesting journey . But the

21:23

real core is getting stability

21:25

of pH , because if we get stability of pH

21:28

we actually don't have these fluctuations of highs and

21:30

lows . So we don't go from a pH

21:32

, you know , happy rumen space is 6.2

21:34

, 6.3 , and we start to feed

21:36

and we drop down to mid-5s and then

21:38

those animals don't eat and they feel

21:41

a bit crook and then that rumen pH

21:43

goes up to plus 7 . It's this real rollercoaster

21:45

effect that , if

21:47

we can narrow that band , we've

21:50

been able to show that the use of antibiotics

21:53

aren't needed because we're not having

21:55

the proliferation of the nasties on

21:57

that rollercoaster . So the faster it falls , the

21:59

faster that things like strep bovis proliferate

22:02

. So that's been and

22:04

that's been , I guess , some of the key learnings

22:06

that we've been able to use with . You know a combination

22:08

of gene technology and real-time

22:10

bolus monitoring in rumens , where we can

22:12

see pH in real time .

22:14

Very cool . So I'm assuming in a

22:16

cattle feedlot the product's

22:18

always in there . Is it the same ? If you're grain feeding

22:21

sheep Like do you , is

22:23

this something you do or you don't do that ?

22:28

No , look , it's all the way through . And it comes

22:30

from the point that we're not only trying to manage acidosis

22:33

, we're all trying to minimize

22:35

the oxidative stress through that liver process . We're

22:37

trying to make sure we've got maximized health

22:39

. So all the vitamins and minerals that drive

22:42

production are in

22:44

that system all the way through . And

22:46

if we think about a bug population , they

22:48

live on average for three or four hours . So we're

22:50

effectively dealing with a new colony

22:52

every , you know , three

22:54

or four times a day . So

22:57

we've got to re-instigate that feeding

22:59

process and we just need to keep on top

23:01

of the nasty

23:04

bugs all the way through . I guess is the easiest

23:06

way to think about it . So yeah , it's a consistent practice all the way through . I guess

23:08

is the easiest way to think about it . So , yeah , it's a consistent practice all the way through .

23:10

And so it's in a form that sorry

23:12

, I should have asked these questions pre-interview maybe , but

23:14

there's good anyway . But it's in a pellet

23:16

form or something , so they're going to pick it up off a trail . It's

23:19

not yeah a pellet . Yeah

23:33

, it's a post-pelleted crumb , so it's actually slightly smaller than a whole pellet , but , yeah , picks

23:35

up off the crumb . Uh , trail , no worries , and they happily eat it . It's got something in there to drive

23:37

them to . Yeah , yep , quite , quite palatable , yep , yeah , awesome . So we've covered it a bit , but

23:39

worth , I guess , reiterating in terms

23:41

of supplements , people are feeding , so whether

23:43

they're choosing a grain or or a hay

23:45

or silage or whatever it is , I

23:48

guess it can never hurt to say

23:50

it Again the importance of getting

23:52

a test on that stuff . So you know the NDF , I mean

23:54

the grain . You're probably not stressed about the NDF , but

23:57

anything that's not grain , but even grains . I

24:00

mean oats aren't oats and barley ain't barley . There

24:02

can be a fair variation there . Do you recommend people

24:04

getting tests on them or only on

24:07

fodder ?

24:08

Yeah , I totally agree

24:10

. Fibre , absolutely Things like megajoules

24:14

of energy , crude protein , starch

24:16

and

24:19

NDF in haze and fodder . The

24:21

most interesting test for me in

24:24

the grain sector is actually test weight , test

24:27

weight and protein . So as protein

24:29

increases , starch decreases . So everyone

24:31

thinks if they buy a high-protein grain it's better

24:33

. It's actually the other way around . So

24:36

the lower the protein , the higher the test weight , the

24:41

higher the starch , because starch and protein are inversely related . So we're

24:43

really chasing the same thing as our friends the maltsters

24:45

that make our beer . It's

24:48

really about highly formidable carbohydrates . So

24:50

good , heavy , good heavy grain with a low protein

24:52

is is what I'll always choose . Um , when

24:55

we start to do diets and just going back

24:57

to your comment on oats , I mean oats is

24:59

a intriguing

25:15

that , yeah , the opposite

25:17

grade to barley is feed .

25:19

Yet molting is better than feed .

25:21

Yeah , yeah

25:23

yeah , yeah , but

25:25

I guess we said a lot in aust , a lot in Australia with

25:27

the wheat sector . We're getting 16%

25:30

and 17% wheat and everyone thinks they're

25:33

buying great wheat because of the protein . Well , if

25:35

it's 16% or 17% , I can tell you the starch levels

25:37

aren't going to be there to drive production . So our food

25:39

efficiency is going to fall out of bed really quick . So I'd

25:41

rather pay an extra $20 or $30

25:44

and go up a grade and come back to a 12%

25:46

wheat with a 65 , 68

25:49

hectolitre test weight . Then , yeah

25:52

, that higher protein a little bit cheaper .

25:55

So ME ? So that won't be reflected in ME

25:57

. That's reflected in test weight . Yes , in

26:00

the starch content .

26:03

Yeah , yeah , and you've just got to think about volume . You

26:05

know , it's endosperm competing with space

26:07

for starch .

26:08

Yeah .

26:17

Yeah . So what's a good test weight to look for ? Uh , 65

26:20

, 68 , 70s , if we can get it . Yeah , yeah , yeah

26:22

, high test weight low crude protein .

26:23

Yeah , yeah , different story if you're feeding , like

26:26

if you're feeding a young sheep and you're putting

26:28

30% lupins in that diet to get

26:31

a bit of protein in there . Or are we only

26:33

doing that because it's a good energy source

26:35

really ?

26:36

Well , it's more about amino acid profiling

26:38

. You know the amino acid profiling

26:40

of cereal grains is pretty ordinary for growth

26:43

, but the starch content is fantastic for fermentation

26:45

. So pulses

26:48

and meals particularly

26:50

have a fantastic uh ammonia

26:52

amino acid ratio to drive um

26:54

protein synthesis within those animals . So

26:56

you know , typically a lamb feedlot

26:59

diet for me is 75 wheat

27:01

or barley , 20 lupins

27:03

and 5 protect s . That's . That's a

27:06

bog standard feedlot type diet in

27:08

my life .

27:13

Maybe if we just get into the real specifics of grain introduction , as in how long and

27:15

I think your raw thumb is good 75 . So if you haven't got them all on the

27:17

trail , then don't feed more than 75 grams

27:19

a head per day . But are you like a 50-50 , 100-100

27:22

, 150-150 sort of ? Or

27:24

how fast do you climb that curve

27:26

?

27:31

Yeah , I let the sheep a little bit and the cattle tell me , but sheep specifically , you know I'll tend

27:33

to climb that curve reasonably quick

27:35

after day four or five , once we've got animals

27:38

behavior feeding well . So if we

27:40

can get to 300 grams , split

27:42

morning and night , so 150 , 150

27:44

by day five , day six , I'm reasonably

27:47

comfortable to go up in sort of 100 , 100

27:49

gram increments post that . So yeah

27:51

, so sort of eight to ten days

27:54

will generally be a solid

27:56

food lot induction and if I see any dramas

27:58

along the way through , we'll just , we'll either

28:00

hold or step back a day . Just , you

28:02

know it's we , we

28:04

can get to the edge , but we don't want to step over

28:07

it . The bar , like I always think

28:09

about it from bar bar , bright , alert

28:11

, responsive , have a look at their eyes , have a look at their

28:13

ears , head down . If we're seeing any

28:15

of that , uh , if there's a slight scare

28:17

, if it's any runnier than toothpaste , really

28:20

just start to go . Hang on . What are we ? What are our

28:22

early signs of seeing ? Not an issue

28:24

, but we are starting to step towards the edge

28:26

of the cliff . Let's , let's be sensible and

28:28

step back a day or two . It's not gonna

28:30

. I'd rather step back a day or two than tip over

28:32

or or cause scarring on the room

28:34

, and which will impact us on the whole feeding program yeah

28:37

, I think I don't know .

28:38

I've seen plenty of examples where you're

28:41

kind of three weeks later you're back to

28:43

kind of you're gonna feed for six

28:46

weeks and then three weeks in you're actually back to starting

28:48

live work because you've been through some induction

28:51

program , didn't work that well and half and got crook

28:53

and you actually made no ground and you've spent money

28:55

and you and you haven't got long to feed them from there , kind

28:57

of thing no , no , and

28:59

you know , at the moment I think we'd be running

29:02

close to 500 a ton in australia .

29:03

for , for a decent ration , 480 , something.80 , something

29:05

like that , so $0.48 , $0.50

29:08

a kilo .

29:10

Yeah , you don't want to throw it out the window . Final thing , Rob

29:12

, just that , splitting the day

29:15

up . So

29:19

everyone loves efficiency and getting jobs done fast , but obviously when it comes to

29:21

keeping that room and balance sorted , little

29:24

and often is obviously what

29:26

you started this podcast with . But worth reiterating that

29:28

if we can split it two or three times rather than

29:30

give them a chunk every single

29:32

time , whatever it is , particularly in that induction period-

29:34

Absolutely

29:36

.

29:37

I think I'm too busy , I haven't got enough time

29:39

. I think that's a BS . If

29:41

you're serious about animal welfare , if you're serious

29:43

about making money and you're serious about doing

29:45

a good job , a little bit of effort . And

29:51

you know , at that early stage , if we're starting to look at , you know , mob dynamics , where we've

29:53

got pens of 250 or 300 head , it's

29:55

literally a bucket of rain . It's not

29:58

bagging . You know , it's not physically

30:00

demanding it . It's a really

30:02

simple process . You know , yeah

30:04

, I think it's a basic excuse to say

30:06

, oh , it's not efficient to do it . It's

30:12

a week or 10 days out of your life where you've got an opportunity to either tear up a heap of

30:14

money or really capture some good values .

30:15

Yeah , yeah , yeah

30:18

, feed them before breakfast and feed them again having

30:20

a beer after work , and it'll be fine , absolutely

30:23

Excellent . All right

30:25

, rob , you're on the wit Sundays heading to beef

30:27

, so

30:35

I'll let you get on with that caravan trip and , um , yeah , I'm sure I'm jealous of everyone being at beef

30:37

, but I won't get there this year . But yeah , thanks very much for your time , mate , and all the best with pregnant .

30:38

It's a great product having great impact across

30:40

the industry thanks

30:43

for uh appreciate getting invite back

30:45

onto um next gen .

30:46

Cheers mate thanks Heinegger

30:48

, who are proud world leaders in the manufacturing and supply

30:50

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30:53

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30:55

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