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This episode of the Hardman Podcast is brought
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to you by Joe Garrisi with Backwards Planning
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. Financial by Alpine Gold , by
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Max D Trailers by Salton Strings
0:09
, Butchery , Private Family , Banking , Premier
0:11
Body , Armor and Ecclesia Design . Welcome
0:20
to this episode of the Hardman Podcast
0:22
. I'm your host , Derek Kahn , and joined
0:24
today by the one
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, the only bearded bald Norseman
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, Dan Burkholder .
0:30
Thank you for having me . There is another , dan Burkholder
0:32
, who is actually more famous . He's a
0:34
photographer , really yeah , but
0:36
he spells his name B-U-R-K . Is
0:38
he bald ? I don't know . I
0:41
haven't seen a picture .
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It's not self-portrait , so You're
0:46
the only Dan Burkholder that I care about . Dan Dan , we're going to jump into
0:48
this episode in just a minute . We're going to be talking about CS
0:50
Lewis and Narnia and
0:53
some of his views , which
0:55
are very popular today , on male headship
0:57
. Oh , they're popular . Oh , did
0:59
I say popular ? I meant people hate them
1:01
, in fact . We'll
1:03
get into it in just a minute , but I had posted
1:05
something about CS Lewis
1:07
and headship from . This
1:10
is from the silver chair , so quotes from the book
1:12
. We'll get into them . But it was interesting because several
1:14
people in the comments said I
1:21
have been a lifelong .
1:22
CS Lewis fan and you have forever ruined that for me
1:24
.
1:24
Well , it sounds like you're doing favors , mean , if , yeah
1:26
, if you're a raging feminist , get out . That's all
1:29
I gotta say .
1:29
You're not allowed to be a cs lewis fan no , I
1:31
mean , you didn't even have to interpret it , no
1:33
, just read it it was basically just reading
1:35
it , uh .
1:36
Before we get into that , though , dan , you had a rousing
1:39
and I'm talking rousing uh
1:42
appearance on . It's
1:44
not yet up , but it's going to be on Instagram reels
1:46
. It's going to be on Twitter on
1:48
X a rousing and
1:50
I mean rousing appeal for
1:53
people to come to the conference . Is there any
1:55
way I know I'm putting you on the spot Is
1:57
there any way I can get you to recreate
2:00
it ?
2:00
Recreate it , yeah . So
2:02
, uh , new Christian impresses having
2:05
a conference June 6th through the 8th . Come
2:08
or don't come , I don't
2:10
care , but if
2:13
you are there I'll see you then , or
2:15
I won't , but you should come
2:17
. But you should come . Yeah , that's
2:19
great .
2:20
That's pretty much it . I mean spot on . For
2:22
people who don't know , dan is our resident Ron
2:25
Swanson .
2:27
A higher compliment has never been given
2:29
to me .
2:30
Actually , I think I have given you a higher compliment because
2:32
I compared you to Puddleglum .
2:33
And Samwise , gamgee and Samwise
2:35
. I mean , yeah
2:38
, I appreciate it .
2:39
High country . Nobody ever compares me to characters in
2:42
well , actually , that's not true . Cs
2:44
Lewis maybe Brian has been calling me Reepicheep
2:47
lately . I mean , I accept
2:49
the honor . Yes , I accept the honor . So
2:52
we definitely encourage people to sign up for
2:54
the conference . Dan , this year we have had a
2:57
massive turnout . Last year we had , I don't know , 150
2:59
people who came to our conference . This
3:02
year we are . I think we looked
3:04
at numbers today we're well over 600 , I think it's six
3:06
, 50 . One of the things I want to encourage
3:08
people to attend is the concert
3:11
which
3:13
I keep calling a conference , but a concert with Brian
3:15
survey . We are going to attempt
3:18
something pretty bold and audacious here . We
3:20
are going to live record this sucker . We've got a professional
3:22
sound guy coming and
3:25
we hope to have a
3:27
musical production of sorts . Be
3:30
that an album of Brian's that's produced
3:32
live . We'll also , lord willing , have
3:35
included in that some Psalm singing , him singing
3:37
. So be there . Really
3:39
, I think what I'm saying is , if you come and you're part of
3:41
this live album , then
3:43
you're basically famous , yes , so you want basically
3:45
famous , yes . So you
3:47
want to be on it , so get a ticket
3:50
for Brian's concert . But
3:52
the other thing , dan , we are having , which I think is really cool
3:54
, is a VIP business mixer . We've
3:57
got a number of people who are going to be there , including sponsors
3:59
for this show . We're going to have the guys from max
4:01
d who are going to be there , we
4:03
are going to have mr joe garrisy
4:06
. There's going to be a lot of people . Um
4:08
and so for people thinking like , should I go to the
4:10
business mixer , what kind of person should
4:13
sign up for our vip business
4:15
mixer ?
4:17
and uh , yeah , give me the uh , well , yeah
4:19
, really the pitch on it really , if you're
4:21
a guy that values
4:24
networking opportunities , especially
4:27
for economic benefit
4:29
and for relationships
4:32
with like-minded men that lead
4:34
businesses and have a lot of responsibilities
4:37
on their shoulders I mean this is a great
4:39
opportunity . There's really very few
4:42
opportunities like this that are going to
4:44
exist in North
4:46
America to where you have the opportunity
4:48
to cultivate relationships
4:50
with men that have similar roles
4:53
, responsibilities and are
4:55
like-minded in building the new Christendom
4:57
, specifically in their companies and
4:59
in their corners of the world . So
5:02
that's where I think the greatest
5:04
benefit is , you know . So if you're
5:06
if you're a business owner or you're a guy that that
5:08
values networking , that's
5:11
. That's where I'd go .
5:12
Yeah , so , and I think this year , much bigger
5:14
number of attendance , so there's going to be even better
5:16
opportunity . Last year we had a lot
5:18
of businesses and people connect who
5:21
are doing . I mean , some of the business deals that came out
5:23
of this were like in the tens to hundreds
5:25
of millions of dollars for a
5:27
lot of people . So I think those connection points
5:29
are really good . And then also just attending
5:31
the conference . Of course , the VIP mixer is a separate
5:34
ticket , but attending the conference we
5:36
are going to have so many people here . We've got the speakers
5:39
, obviously , so we've got Pastor Brian
5:41
, dr Joe Rigney , dr Stephen Wolf
5:43
, we've got Joel Webben , we've got
5:45
J Chase Davis there's going to be that
5:48
but there's also just
5:50
a host of people from CJ Engel
5:52
to Andrew Isker I mean guys
5:54
that we follow on Twitter . This is a great
5:56
opportunity to connect with
5:58
what you know . It can feel like we're a little bit of
6:00
a small ghetto in the midst of gay
6:04
globalist multiculturalism in a lot
6:06
of America , but I think the value
6:08
of connecting with a lot of those guys and being encouraged
6:10
, yeah , absolutely .
6:12
There's going to be also just the
6:14
the people that are behind the scenes , that are
6:16
doing the work , that are not Twitter
6:18
famous or podcast famous
6:20
, that you all have the opportunity to be
6:22
encouraged by and to network with will
6:24
be will be great . You know , you'd mentioned
6:27
Max D earlier , and I just had a phone call with
6:29
them and they even said they've got
6:31
job openings , and so one of the things that
6:33
they're hoping to do is at their
6:35
booth at the conference is to
6:37
try to recruit good men
6:39
to do the work to help them build
6:41
their very , very successful trailer
6:44
company , and so there's many opportunities
6:46
there other than just going to a really good
6:48
conference and listening to really good speakers
6:50
. I think that's probably the understated
6:53
but most valuable part
6:55
of any conference is the opportunity
6:58
to network with like-minded individuals
7:00
, especially because of the cultural
7:02
moment and the temperature right
7:05
now , and so these guys are like-minded and
7:07
they think the same things and they eat
7:10
at the same trough and are made of the same
7:12
stuff , and so I think that's probably the most
7:14
valuable aspect of the conference .
7:16
Yeah , certainly one of my favorite things at
7:18
the last conference for us recently
7:21
, going to Joel Webbins conference , getting
7:23
to have FaceTime with people yeah
7:26
, I think it's just tremendous . So definitely encourage you guys
7:29
to check that out , if you have not already
7:31
bought a ticket . Of course , if you're a Patreon
7:33
member , there is some special pricing
7:35
, so sign up today . You can get the link in
7:37
Patreon for a special discount . Would
7:40
encourage you guys to meet us June 6th through
7:42
8th in Ogden , utah , utah
7:44
, dan . What I want to do now is jump into this episode
7:46
. I've been thinking for the last five
7:49
minutes of my life about patriarchy if you
7:51
can believe that or not , but
7:53
yeah , a couple things here . So
7:55
I was preparing for a talk at Right Response
7:57
Ministries and I found this
8:00
talk from Russell Moore from
8:02
, I think , 2008 . And he was talking all
8:04
about how the Christian
8:06
world up until about five minutes ago
8:08
was all patriarchal and focused
8:10
on male headship . One of the things that he said was
8:13
that in this paper was
8:15
that CS Lewis defended headship
8:18
in mere Christianity as
8:20
one of the central tenets of the Christian faith and
8:22
Christian worldview . So this kind of got
8:24
me down , this CS Lewis train
8:27
of thought , at least on headship . So
8:30
that's kind of stepping stone number one . Stepping
8:32
stone number two was my friends
8:34
were relentlessly mocking me , and
8:37
my friends were Dan Burkholder was
8:40
relentlessly mocking me because , ok
8:43
, so I had not fully
8:45
read the chronicles of narnia . This
8:48
is like confession time I now
8:50
, just to be fair . I had
8:53
probably listened to great
8:55
portions of it , like
8:57
in the car where the kids are listening or whatever , and I'm
8:59
like zoning out . There were points
9:01
reading through the series where I was like , oh
9:04
yeah , I'm pretty sure I've heard this before but it was
9:06
not good . So this
9:08
last week spring break , I started , just
9:11
started reading through them right and was
9:14
kind of blown away . Life-changing experience
9:16
. Wow , really , it really was
9:18
. Yeah , um , and
9:21
I want to talk to you just generally . First
9:23
of all , we'll get into the headship stuff in just a moment
9:25
and where I think it shows up . But I
9:27
think what really changed my life
9:30
through CS Lewis , it's the way
9:32
he's able to write . He has this saying
9:34
elsewhere where kind
9:36
of the the point of good fiction is
9:38
to get past the watchful dragons of the heart . And
9:41
there's something about when you're sitting in a sermon or
9:44
you're in theology class and you're like , okay
9:46
, I know what's going on here . But CS
9:48
Lewis gets past all those defenses
9:50
into your heart in a way that I
9:53
almost wanted to call it sort of like quote , unquote
9:55
, magical . Like he's
9:57
able to write in such a way where , like Aslan
9:59
will scold one of the children and you
10:02
yourself feel as though you're being scolded
10:04
. And there were times where aslan will correct
10:06
a child , especially like susan or
10:08
edmund or you know , like
10:11
in the later novels , you know caspian or something like
10:13
that . He's correcting lucy about
10:15
her vanity , I think in the dawn treader
10:18
while she looks in the mirror , and
10:20
I remember thinking like I would just start crying because
10:23
I it's like I'm being corrected . Yeah
10:26
, these stories , which are quote unquote child's tales
10:28
, are incredibly powerful
10:31
. So
10:37
that's sort of my like you know 20 second spiel about why , initially
10:39
, why it was impactful . But I know that you're a big fiction guy and you're a big CS
10:42
Lewis guy and a big Narnia guy . What
10:44
is it about these stories that makes them so powerful
10:46
, even , especially , for adults
10:48
?
10:48
Yeah , the adult part , I think , is really
10:51
important . Cs Lewis talks
10:53
about this in his book or his his
10:56
, I don't know what you'd call
10:58
it . It's not really a book , but like a pamphlet
11:00
or whatever . It's called an experiment
11:02
in criticism and he actually talks
11:04
about it's called in an experiment in criticism and he actually talks about an essay . It's an essay
11:07
, yeah , yeah , an essay . He talks
11:09
about being childlike and
11:11
how um we need to recapture
11:13
being childish , and usually
11:16
when the word childish is used
11:18
, it's denigrating
11:20
you think about immaturity , immaturity , yeah , yeah
11:22
, yeah , throwing a his whatever , being
11:24
selfish , like all the number of times my
11:26
kids will ask the question
11:48
but why ? why , you
11:50
know what's this , what's that , how
11:52
does that work ? Uh , boundless
11:55
curiosity , um , and wonder
11:57
at the world that got created . And
11:59
there are many , many things that he talks about
12:01
. I haven't read it in years , so if
12:04
I had been more familiar I could give you more . But the
12:07
idea that CS
12:09
Lewis values childishness
12:12
so highly comes out
12:14
in the books in one way in particular that
12:16
I can't remember where I heard it from . But
12:18
you have a lot of these
12:21
children's stories , and the way
12:23
that they make the children
12:25
the protagonists is by making the adults
12:27
dumb . They have to
12:29
make the adults seem like big
12:32
dopes in order
12:34
for the children to actually be the
12:36
heroes . They're the heroes , you know , and in Narnia
12:39
that's actually not the case . He elevates
12:41
children by making
12:44
them believable and by
12:46
helping you to recapture
12:49
some of the best virtues of
12:51
being a child , and
12:53
so I think that's why it's so powerfully
12:56
relative for adults
12:58
is because there's something smoldering
13:01
in every one of us that is rekindled when
13:03
we read those stories , because you
13:05
can see yourself as these children
13:07
, and they don't have to . He
13:09
, he doesn't amplify some of
13:12
the boneheaded immaturities of
13:14
children to make it to to
13:16
be distracting from the story
13:18
. There are some of those things , but
13:20
they're all very relatable and
13:22
I think that's really helpful . So , in
13:25
in recapturing that childlike
13:27
wonder for the world and for creation , also
13:29
through his world building and the things that
13:31
he emphasizes about Narnia , it
13:34
was like , I think Tolkien , uh
13:36
, somebody said like you can smell the earth of
13:39
middle earth , like you can smell it , it's
13:41
, it's very real . Uh , with
13:43
Narnia , there's something in one's
13:46
heart that just longs to be there
13:48
. I want to be there
13:51
. Middle earth is familiar . I don't mean to to
13:53
like , compare them as like , but but
13:55
I think there is something helpful there . Middle
13:57
earth is relatable and there is wonder there and
13:59
there's magic , but it's very cold and
14:01
it's brutal and it's beautiful , but but
14:03
there's something about Narnia that is like
14:05
. This is like a dreamlike place that I would just
14:07
long to be .
14:09
But it it somehow works , and this is what I mean , it somehow
14:11
works on the affections of your heart . So I found
14:13
myself , like
14:15
you know , I was talking to my wife about it and she was , like
14:17
I seem like really moved
14:19
by this story . This
14:21
might've been after Caspian . She
14:24
said what are you thinking ? And
14:26
I , just like what came
14:28
out in the moment , I was like I want to touch
14:30
Aslan's mane . Yeah
14:32
, like I want to have one of these conversations
14:35
and really , you know
14:37
, you have Aslan
14:39
, who's the picture of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah
14:41
and all that . I get that Like this Christic figure
14:43
, all that . But
14:45
Lewis of the lion of the tribe of judah and all that , I get that like this christic figure , all
14:47
that , um , but lewis is able to , he's able to tell the story in such a way where , like , you
14:49
want to be in narnia , you
14:52
want to in . Um , you
14:55
know michael ward in his book , uh
14:57
, this is planet narnia . Uh
15:00
, he talks about , he's going through like how
15:02
the books of narnia are a reflection of the seven
15:04
planetary systems in the medieval
15:06
mind . But as he's going through
15:09
that , he said what Lewis is trying to do is he's trying
15:11
to transport you into an environment , not
15:13
where you contemplate it , but where
15:16
you enjoy it , interesting , and
15:18
so , as you're going through that , you're thinking
15:20
, yeah , there's something weird happening
15:22
. I don't even understand how it's working on
15:24
my emotions , but it is definitely
15:27
impacting me . And , of course , one of
15:29
the major themes that Michael Ward talks
15:31
about is central
15:34
in all of Lewis's
15:36
medieval mind was Jupiter
15:38
, and Jupiter is the planet of joviality
15:41
and kingship and this is why the Lion , the
15:43
Witch and the Wardrobe , which is really the jovial
15:45
book , is filled with mirth
15:48
and winter turning into spring . This is what good
15:50
kings do . And there's this interesting
15:52
line that Michael Ward says I
15:54
think he's quoting an early , early Lewis essay
15:57
but he said our world is fundamentally
16:00
Saturn and Saturn
16:02
is the planet of sadness and grief and death . He
16:04
said it's the only framework which people know
16:06
and the thing that needs to be reintroduced
16:08
is the jovial King , because
16:10
it's like our world . You know he fought in world war
16:13
one think about the time period he was living
16:15
in and he said nobody knows anything
16:17
of joviality and kingship and gladness
16:19
and and royalty . So
16:22
that definitely comes across , uh , in
16:24
in the books and I think makes it something that you definitely
16:26
want to be a part of . It's
16:28
interesting because one
16:31
of the quotes that I was looking at
16:33
on headship which
16:36
comes from lewis , this one is
16:38
, I have to think about , uh
16:40
, not sure the exact source . I think
16:42
this was an essay that he actually
16:45
wrote about women ministers
16:48
, whether or not they should be permitted to be
16:50
ministers in the Anglican church . Okay , and
16:52
he said absolutely not . But this is one
16:54
of the quotes . He said I do not
16:56
believe God created an egalitarian
16:59
world . I believe the authority
17:01
of parent over child , husband over wife
17:03
, learned over simple , to have
17:05
been as much a part of the original
17:07
plan as the authority of man
17:09
over beast . I believe
17:11
that if we had not fallen , patriarchal
17:14
monarchy would be the sole
17:16
lawful form of government . And
17:19
that's the end of the quote , by the way . But
17:22
you read that and you're like , I
17:24
think , the average person in America . You know we're
17:26
imbibed in like liberal secular democracy
17:30
, quote , unquote this democratic
17:32
system . And yet when you read
17:34
Narnia , lewis is undoubtedly
17:37
a royalist , a monarchist . It's
17:40
the king , and I think he's actually right
17:42
here , by the way , about patriarchal monarchy
17:45
being the ideal . When you
17:47
get to heaven , lewis was , you know , he would say
17:49
something like when you get to heaven
17:51
, there's not going to be a democracy . There's
17:54
going to be kingship , and you're going to rejoice
17:56
in it and that's it .
17:58
Yeah , as you've been talking , I've
18:00
been thinking about the line in the witch in the wardrobe
18:02
and that's been one of the books where
18:04
I'm like , eh , it's fine , it's
18:07
fine , but there are some really interesting
18:09
themes there that I hadn't really considered as
18:13
deeply profound . But
18:16
when you're talking about monarchy and
18:18
Lewis's view of the world
18:21
, you do see the thawing
18:23
of the deep winter without Christmas
18:25
. Which funny , funny .
18:27
There is no .
18:28
King , there's no King . Uh
18:30
. And as soon as the
18:32
Kings you know are are coming
18:34
closer to care paravel , all
18:37
of a sudden the snow starts to melt and the , the
18:39
flowers start to bloom and there is joy
18:42
and the golden age of Narnia comes and the golden
18:44
age of Narnia comes , yeah , exactly . But that picture
18:46
of like , as the King arrives , things
18:48
get better until there's a time of peace
18:51
and uh , and that's a really
18:53
interesting theme . And so you can see in
18:55
Lewis's mind what
18:58
would change the world . Well
19:00
, it seems like a righteous King would
19:02
definitely change the world in his mind , but
19:04
instead what we have is
19:07
winter without Christmas .
19:09
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the link in the show notes . You
23:24
know , democracy is very egalitarian , like you , look
23:26
at our society and they're like well , every
23:28
man , woman and child and immigrant and
23:31
everyone else should have equal vote . And
23:34
you know , my question would be what does it
23:36
produce ? And I think what Lewis shows
23:38
you . He doesn't give you an argument , but
23:41
the narrative is the argument , and
23:43
what you find yourself longing for is wise Kings
23:45
and good Kings and the glory
23:48
of a King's reign . So that's , I think , really
23:50
helpful . Um , I do want to jump
23:52
into what I wrote on Twitter
23:54
about headship , and this comes from
23:56
, uh , as I said before , the silver
23:58
chair . This is at the end , uh
24:01
, but this is what I wrote . I said CS Lewis
24:03
rightly recognized that women , by
24:05
their nature , were not made for fighting battles or
24:08
for being in roles of headship . That's
24:10
why Susan and Lucy weren't allowed to fight at the
24:12
front lines . You remember , father Christmas
24:14
comes . This was , by the way , tolkien
24:17
was so upset with Lewis that he included
24:19
father Christmas .
24:20
Yeah , Like what is this hodgepodge of
24:22
?
24:22
Well , it's
24:24
funny because before I had kids , brian and I were talking about the line in the witcher
24:27
wardrobe and I said I just don't
24:29
like santa claus and brian's like are you kidding
24:31
me ? Santa's like one of the best parts . Now
24:33
that I have kids and I read it again , I'm
24:35
like tearing up because father
24:38
christmas is there isn't that crazy .
24:39
That's great , it's great . So father
24:42
, christmas comes , he gets them all gifts . Peter
24:44
gets a sword , edmund , I think
24:46
it's a sword too . I think they get sword
24:48
and shield . Of course , peter's sword is
24:50
better .
24:51
Well , and edmund had betrayed them , so he wasn't
24:53
there oh , edmund's not there at that point .
24:55
Yeah , he gets his later , that's right . So
24:57
peter gets his sword . He's going to be
25:00
the high king . Uh , lucy
25:02
gets a little healing potion
25:04
thing and then a dagger , and then
25:07
susan gets the bow . The bow
25:09
. And the girls are like , yeah , but
25:11
we want to fight . And aslan says this quote
25:14
battles are ugly when women fight . And
25:17
cs lewis was right . So
25:19
I go on . At the end of the silver chair , lewis
25:21
has the head and it's interesting
25:23
, he keeps capitalizing head H , e
25:26
, a , d head . He was talking about headmaster of a
25:28
school , but it's the way he does
25:30
it .
25:30
It also ties into that hideous strength which
25:33
we'll get into .
25:34
So he says at the end of this , or I say at the end
25:36
of the silver chair , lewis has the head
25:38
of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed
25:41
by a woman , as of Eustace and Jill's school portrayed by a woman . As the school
25:43
bullies find Aslan and Caspian returning Jill
25:45
and Eustace to their world , they cry out murder
25:47
, fascists , lions . It
25:49
isn't fair . This is
25:51
precisely the sort of thing a woman pretending
25:54
to be a head would be duped by . Rather
25:57
than responding in a just
25:59
fashion . That is righteous justice
26:01
. She is easily played by the empathy
26:03
card of the bullies who say it isn't
26:05
there . Lewis
26:08
writes of this supposed head . Quote
26:10
this is the end of the silver chair . She
26:12
had hysterics and went back to the house and
26:14
began ringing up the police with stories
26:17
about a lion escaped from the circus and
26:19
escaped convicts who broke down walls and carried
26:21
drawn swords . When the police arrived and found
26:23
no lion , no broken wall and no convicts who broke down walls and carried drawn swords
26:25
. When the police arrived and found no lion , no broken wall and no convicts and
26:28
the head behaving like a lunatic , there
26:30
was an inquiry into the whole thing . After
26:33
that , the head's friends saw that the head was
26:35
no use as a head . So
26:37
they got her made into an inspector to interfere
26:39
with other heads , and when they found
26:42
she wasn't much good even at that , they
26:44
got her into parliament where she lived
26:46
happily ever after . End
26:48
quote , and this is my final comment
26:50
on it that I wrote on Twitter An organization
26:53
or society run by women pretending
26:55
to be heads is going to operate
26:57
on the impulse of empathy , not justice
27:00
, and will therefore devolve into
27:02
just this sort of lunacy . So
27:05
, dan , what ? I want to ask you a bunch about this
27:07
, because there's a lot in here . Uh
27:09
, but one of the things that's interesting in michael ward's
27:12
planetary evaluation , uh
27:14
, the silver chair is the
27:17
moon , and the moon , of course , in
27:19
medieval thought , is lunacy , or , you
27:21
know , it's tied to going mad . Now
27:23
, I find this so fascinating that we think words
27:26
like lunatic , luna , l U , n , a
27:28
, you know , for moon , yep , uh
27:30
, so that's interesting . Uh , but even Eugene
27:33
Peterson in the um the
27:35
Psalm I have to look this up the Lord is my keeper
27:37
, you know , he keeps me from the sun by
27:39
day and the moon by night . Uh , the word
27:42
for the moon by night , there is actually a
27:44
reference to being
27:46
moonstruck , which was an ancient
27:49
way of talking about going crazy . So
27:52
the moon is associated with craziness , of
27:54
course Lewis here is talking about . He
27:56
uses the word lunatic .
27:57
It's also a theme in Lonesome Dove , by the way , which you've
27:59
talked about on this episode around the season , which
28:02
is really interesting .
28:03
So , but but it's interesting the the
28:06
connection with this book and
28:08
the moon . Of
28:13
course the children are underground in this world of madness and a maddening enchantment
28:15
from the I don't know venom snake witch in the underworld
28:17
. But that's a good picture of madness
28:19
. You can't see the sun , so you go
28:22
mad , yeah , so
28:24
the darkness , all those themes are here . But I think it's interesting
28:27
the way that Lewis describes
28:30
a woman trying to be a head , and so I
28:32
want to get your take on that . Why do you think
28:34
he wrote this very comical , you
28:38
know , headmistress , but
28:40
he calls her a head , yeah , and then he
28:42
talks about how basically terrible she was
28:44
as a head .
28:45
Well , right In the story , early on
28:47
, if you recall , at the beginning of the book , jill and
28:49
Eustace are at the school and it's horrible
28:52
, yep , and it's , it's , it's an absolutely
28:54
horrible place .
28:55
And Lewis says in the beginning too , he's like it was
28:57
horrible .
28:57
And , by the way , it
29:04
was run by a woman . Yeah , well , yeah , and you know what's really funny about that ?
29:06
is that it was mixed right , it was boys and girls together .
29:07
Lewis did not like that . He didn't like that and , honestly , we're
29:10
not the biggest fans either , but I
29:12
digress . Uh , so you have this
29:14
essentially horrible atmosphere
29:17
that's not being managed well , uh
29:19
and and so , uh , lewis
29:21
mentions empathy , or you mentioned empathy
29:24
, but the first thing that I think
29:26
is really funny is where
29:28
he responds . You know
29:30
, she responds to the lion and and
29:32
to Jill and Eustace coming back and
29:35
Caspian , and it says
29:37
that she had hysterics . Yes
29:39
, she had hysterics , which
29:41
I mean it would make
29:43
sense for an emotional creature to
29:45
be hysterical when there is a
29:48
large lion and
29:50
men with drawn swords on
29:52
your schoolyard . But one
29:54
of the things that you'll notice . How much
29:56
trouble do we want to get in ?
29:57
A lot , ok so the main reason I brought you on
29:59
is because the last time that
30:02
we really had trouble
30:04
it was because of dan , but
30:06
you got blamed for it , and ally bestucky
30:08
, but I got in trouble and
30:10
I'm here for it . Yeah , I
30:12
gotta , can I ? Can I inject one thing ? Yeah , one
30:15
of my favorite parts of the dawn
30:17
treader is that you get a good
30:19
look at reepa cheap , which was
30:21
like , like I felt like my avatar . It
30:23
was just my soul animal , if you
30:25
will . There's this part at the end , when they're sailing
30:27
towards the sun and the waters are clear and they
30:29
see the people underneath and like the the
30:32
basically mermaid people , whatever the King
30:34
comes up with his Trident and he's shaking at them
30:36
like he once wore . So Reepicheep jumps
30:38
in because he thinks he's been challenged to fight
30:40
. Yeah , because he thinks he's been challenged to fight , yeah , and he jumps in
30:42
the water and is like up , let's go to war , let's go
30:45
. And they have to grab him . They're like Reepicheep , my
30:48
guy . One other , okay
30:50
, one other Reepicheep story . I said only one interjection
30:52
. But they're on the beach . Eustace
30:56
has turned into a dragon . This is Dawn Treader . Yeah
30:59
, that's right , they , they're on the beach , he's
31:01
turned into a dragon and they
31:03
, they think they're going to have to fight . They don't know , it's useless , they
31:05
think they're going to have to fight the dragon and Caspians
31:08
. He's like trying to figure out what to do
31:10
Right , and Reepercheap says
31:12
your majesty , if I might , and he's
31:14
immediately he snaps back . He's like no
31:16
Reepercheap you
31:25
may into single combat , I know what you're gonna ask .
31:27
And I was like reeper chief is my guy . Yeah , so back now . Well , no , I think that's a really good
31:29
picture because , uh , lewis really really does this throughout
31:31
the story yeah , with caspian and
31:34
even even being how , having to be
31:36
reminded of his duties as a king
31:38
, why he can't go into the to
31:40
the eastlands is that right , eastlands ? Yeah
31:42
. And with um reepicheep
31:45
and his quest for honor and
31:47
and to be valiant in battle and
31:49
and to be loyal to to
31:52
the king and to his people . Uh , there
31:54
are themes like that for masculinity , and
31:57
then he also has positive femininity , but
31:59
you have I want to interject one thing
32:01
, because I find this so funny .
32:02
The word lunatic which Lewis uses is
32:04
very interesting , well chosen , but
32:08
so is the word , as you mentioned , hysterics . When
32:10
you said the word out loud , I thought of something
32:13
. Have you ever heard the word hysterectomy
32:15
? Yes , so
32:18
the Latin root
32:20
? Well , actually it's from the Greek hysteria
32:22
, which means womb uterus
32:24
, or hysteria , as
32:26
we would think about it , of going mad . I
32:32
think Lewis knew what he was
32:34
doing . Like when you put a woman in the head . See , the
32:36
thing is , when I like we think about our
32:38
wives . When
32:46
they're in their proper , god-ordained role as mother and keeper of the home , they're not hysterical
32:48
, no . But when you try to put her in a , a head role , you
32:50
need to make decisions for the family , you need to be the breadwinner
32:52
for the family , you need to go go to college
32:54
and have a career so that you can lead your family
32:57
. When you put her , who has a womb
32:59
, in that condition , that's
33:03
when you see hysterical women . I
33:05
think it's interesting that Lewis ties that
33:07
together . Really , tell me more
33:09
. Tell me more . That's what I got . That's what I got
33:11
on that one .
33:13
I keep interrupting you no , we
33:15
all experience this , though . We have experienced
33:18
this . If you've worked in any W2
33:20
job anywhere and had a female boss , you
33:22
can relate to this . There's
33:25
a reason that a matriarchal
33:27
type of tyrannical mother-in-law
33:30
, or even mother , has
33:32
the sort of reputation that
33:35
they have . If you , you know
33:37
, the hysterics takes on a different more
33:40
of the snake-like you
33:42
know , more of the snake-like queen
33:45
lady , where , if you misstep
33:47
or say the wrong thing , you will have your head
33:49
bitten off . The
33:51
emotions of a
33:53
woman under pressure in a role
33:56
that she's not meant to operate in , will
33:59
result in emotional
34:02
out outburst and hysterics
34:04
. It's the same thing , though , if
34:07
a man is subjugated in
34:10
a role that he's not meant to be
34:12
in , will cause him
34:14
to be effeminate , and
34:27
so I think back to our monarchy and our democracy conversation . You have men that , essentially
34:29
, are on the same plane , in an egalitarian plane , as women , that are ruled by women
34:32
many times . What is
34:34
that ? What is the fruit that you should expect ? Well , it's
34:36
not kingly men that will
34:38
fight for their king and country
34:40
, but they will be effeminate because
34:42
they're led by hysterics .
34:44
That's insane . So so this is interesting . I
34:47
look this up in a couple places and
34:50
when you look at again the root words
34:52
Hysteria , which means womb
34:54
or uterus , why was it the root
34:56
word for hysteria or craziness
34:58
? It's funny , cause you
35:01
read the entries on this and they're like well cause
35:03
, the Greeks were really dumb , blah , blah , blah , blah . And this
35:05
is what it said . Historically , it
35:07
was believed that hysteria , particularly
35:09
in women , was caused by disturbances
35:12
and radical emotions associated
35:14
with the uterus in a woman's time of month . They're
35:18
writing this like how dumb they were . Okay
35:20
, the greeks believe that
35:22
the greeks belief led to the use of the term hysteria
35:25
to describe a state of uncontrolled
35:28
emotion or behavior which is most
35:30
commonly found in women
35:32
during certain parts of their menstrual cycle
35:34
. Every
35:36
man on earth and every woman on earth who's honest
35:38
with herself knows that that is true , right
35:42
? Yeah , this conversation always
35:44
comes up in leadership with , like us politics
35:46
, because I remember in my lifetime early
35:49
on it's like would you want a woman who menstruates pushing
35:51
the nuclear button ? And
35:53
like everybody was like yeah , that's probably a bad
35:55
idea .
35:56
Now we pretend like that's not reality . Yeah
35:58
, that's not .
35:59
That's not something you can notice , right but there
36:01
is a difference in the sexes . This is why the woman
36:03
will do so poorly in a leadership role is
36:06
because she's got those emotional
36:09
responses . And when you look at
36:11
them from a mothering perspective , it actually makes
36:13
sense , because the uterus
36:15
is for what ?
36:17
Making children , growing children yeah
36:19
.
36:20
That's right . Children
36:23
, yeah , that's right . And when a woman has to fight , as Lewis said , things get ugly , because if she's
36:25
fighting , it means she's defending herself or , more likely , her children . She's
36:28
going to go full mama bear .
36:30
Yes .
36:30
And she has to .
36:31
Yes , yeah , and absolutely . And that's not to
36:33
denigrate women , it's . It's
36:36
that the glory of women
36:38
are not to be bad
36:40
men . Right , they're not meant
36:42
to be men like . They're
36:44
just smaller , framed and weaker versions
36:47
of men .
36:48
Well , and this is the interesting thing with Lewis , because
36:50
when you look at the line , the witch
36:52
in the wardrobe , lucy and Susan have this
36:54
great relationship with Aslan . I
36:57
mean a a favored role
36:59
, I would even say . In many ways , they're the ones
37:01
who go with him to the stone table , they're the
37:03
ones who have these long , deep conversations with him
37:05
. Um , it reminds you of the
37:08
women at Jesus's tomb . They
37:10
are not denigrated as
37:12
people , but Lewis doesn't do
37:14
the modern , really retarded modern
37:16
thing where he says , therefore they should
37:18
rule yeah , or Susan
37:21
ends up winning the battle . She comes , comes
37:23
as , like the the deus ex machina
37:25
, you know and and wins the battle no
37:28
, and even in , uh say , like in caspian susan's
37:30
in that one , but she's painted
37:32
mostly , as you know , their journey to
37:34
go find caspian at at the
37:37
how . She's painted
37:39
mostly in a negative light , particularly
37:41
because she's growing up and
37:43
her number one sin in that book is nagging
37:46
and Lewis is not
37:48
merciful with her on that front , nor
37:50
is Aslan . So it's really interesting
37:52
to me Like he understood the dynamics of sexual
37:54
nature .
37:55
You know I don't know if you know this , but the context
37:58
in which the motivation that Lewis wrote
38:00
these books was for his I
38:02
would think it was niece and nephew- yeah . And
38:04
so if you , if you take yourself
38:07
away from our current
38:09
culture and the environment , everything like that
38:11
, what's politically correct and all of
38:13
that , if you were to write a book for
38:15
your children or for your niece and nephew and
38:17
you wanted to highlight certain temptations
38:20
for the particular
38:22
ways in which both boys
38:25
and girls and men and women will be tempted
38:27
to sin , those are the sorts of things
38:29
that that Lewis writes
38:31
, and so it's going to be hysterics
38:34
, it's going to be nagging , it's going
38:36
to be vanity
38:38
. You know all of these feminine sins , but
38:40
the same thing can be seen as men
38:42
. All of these feminine
38:45
sins , but the same thing can be seen as
38:47
men . Cowardice , betrayal , a lack of honor , shrinking back
38:49
. You know all of these things are greed
38:52
. Those
38:58
sorts of themes are prevalent in the male characters as well , and so I think it's
39:00
I just think it's a really good barometer as to
39:03
the reading something that
39:05
was written before our current time . This
39:07
is why it's so important to read old books . I know it's
39:09
not that old , you know
39:11
it's only what ? 70 years old at this point
39:14
. Yeah but it's a lot's changed
39:16
, it's pre-sexual revolution ?
39:18
Yes , and obviously Lewis wrote
39:20
essays on this , so they were dealing with
39:22
the early phases of like you know , should
39:24
women be priests ? And stuff like that . But
39:27
it's interesting because most of the comments on here
39:29
are like I've read Lewis all my life on
39:31
Twitter in response to me I've read
39:33
Lewis all my life . Unfortunately , he was a total
39:35
misogynist and you just have to reject that part of
39:37
him . Blah , blah , blah and . But the
39:39
thing is , this is the chronological snobbery
39:41
, but it's like or maybe he was right
39:44
. Does anybody ever stop and
39:46
ask that question ? Dan
39:48
, one of the things that I think is really interesting . Let's
39:50
go back to the school bullies for a minute . The
39:52
school bullies they find Aslan
39:55
and Caspian returning , jill and Eustace and
39:58
they just start crying out like the
40:00
woke mobs today
40:02
Murder , fascist , racist
40:04
, you know , bigot . And
40:08
I love he puts at the end he says it isn't fair
40:11
. So there's a misplaced call for some sort
40:13
of justice . But it's interesting
40:15
to me that women are particularly prone to
40:17
this sort of manipulation .
40:19
Why do you think that is ?
40:21
That's a good question . I think that
40:23
women are , again , very emotionally
40:25
driven . They're , by nature , nurturers . Men
40:29
are much better at drawing hard lines defending
40:31
the perimeter . I think
40:33
that women this is kind of what Joe
40:35
Rigney talks about with the sins of empathy Wherever
40:38
you have like a , the amount
40:40
of female heads goes up like
40:43
women leading in a society , church
40:45
or family . The more that happens , the
40:47
more the empathy card will rule the day , which
40:50
it just means like crazy emotions are going to run
40:52
the show . And the thing
40:54
is , if the , if the
40:56
ticket to leadership is being crazy emotionally
40:59
, women will always have the advantage , because
41:02
the thing is , any honest woman
41:04
will will tell you this . She knows how to control
41:06
a home with her emotions . Now
41:08
, in a good home , she can
41:11
be a great help and
41:13
support and life giver to her husband
41:15
and her children through things like . I'm
41:18
always blown away by this A woman who smiles
41:20
at her children and her husband it's
41:23
like intoxicating . Just smile
41:25
at your people , yeah , and speak
41:27
sweetly to them . It's amazing what you can do . On the
41:29
other hand , a woman who's
41:31
near her cycle or a woman who's upset about
41:33
what's going on , she is going
41:35
to throw an absolute fit and
41:38
people will go into hiding in that home . Well
41:40
, think about it . It's like you go into a workplace . How
41:43
many female bosses have you had where you're just
41:45
like , or men acting like women
41:47
where you just go ? This is a passive
41:49
, aggressive , nasty , emotional , hysterical
41:51
environment .
41:52
Yeah , that's definitely the place where I have the CYA
41:55
folder so that I , you know , cover
41:57
your assets folder
42:00
so that you because eventually
42:02
it's going to explode at some
42:04
point yeah , so you have to be able to capture
42:06
all of the passive , aggressive notes and emails
42:08
and emotional outbursts and things like that . So
42:10
I can relate , but
42:13
not here .
42:13
But yeah , but it's interesting to Dan . You think about
42:15
this , like think
42:17
about how can we , weaponized in a , in
42:19
a feminine society and in
42:22
a female dominated society like our
42:24
own , murder fascist lions ? It
42:26
isn't fair . Think about today what's going
42:28
on with Christian nationalism . All
42:30
you got to do is call somebody a fascist or
42:32
a Nazi or a racist , or
42:35
the word now is kinest . All
42:38
you got to do is that and it's all of a sudden like I
42:40
can't even responsibly , I can't even have a conversation
42:42
with you because you're subhuman . Why
42:45
? Because somebody called me a name or called this other
42:47
person a name , or you referenced
42:49
the Jews or something like that . So now you're off
42:51
limits . But this is the sort
42:53
of manipulation that will tend to
42:55
happen and again , I think it's
42:57
particularly tied to the
43:01
female bearing
43:03
gone wrong when it's put
43:05
in a place of headship . I think that's typically
43:07
where you're going to see this sort of thing
43:09
. I also think it's interesting . I
43:11
want to see if you think this is true . I
43:14
always found working in a corporate bureaucracy
43:17
to be particularly
43:20
it's a particularly
43:22
feminine environment in the sense , like everything
43:24
that's bad about . You know
43:26
what we're talking about , the hysterics , all that stuff . It's
43:31
like everything goes wrong when you put
43:33
women all throughout that workplace and
43:35
then in charge of the positions in the workplace
43:37
. I always , again , I always found it to be a very
43:40
passive , aggressive , nasty environment . I
43:43
did not enjoy corporate America because men
43:45
didn't act like men . They acted
43:47
like gossipy , catty , nasty , like the worst
43:49
kind of women .
43:51
Well , and I think it's amplified or caused in
43:53
part because of the dreaded
43:56
human resources department that
43:58
is the epitome of what I'm talking about well , you have
44:00
essentially an organization or a department
44:02
that is a gatekeeper for the entire
44:05
business . It's basically
44:07
corporate entity . So they're the ones looking
44:09
at resumes , they're the ones doing the
44:11
, the you know so gatekeeping in
44:13
, and then , once people are in , where
44:16
are you supposed to go with issues
44:18
? You're supposed to go to the caddy ladies
44:21
in hr well , think about this .
44:23
I'm thinking of like five or six companies I've worked for
44:25
who , by the way , are notorious
44:27
gossips .
44:27
So right of confidentiality
44:29
. But I'm talking like .
44:31
In most of the cases that I've dealt with hr departments
44:34
, it's either like an old woman or
44:36
a gay dude and you're like
44:38
what are those people act like you
44:40
know , and they were usually like it was weird , cause it
44:42
would be like somebody who is like on the surface
44:44
, like sweetie , like the overly Southern
44:47
sweetie type thing or whatever , but
44:49
then like maliciously ripping your heart out or something
44:51
like oh , by the way , like
44:55
ripping your heart out or something like , oh , by the way , like we're just going to have to have
44:57
security escort you out with the folder , and I'm like you think I want any of
44:59
the garbage from this building . This was an instance
45:02
when I actually took another job and
45:04
they were negotiating back and forth and the minute
45:06
I said , no , thank you for the offer , but you know
45:08
I am going to accept this other offer . Ok
45:11
, great , well , security will be right up
45:13
. I was like two
45:15
weeks , you're not gonna give me . No
45:18
, we don't want you to steal any more intellectual
45:20
property I was
45:22
just like this is the slimiest . Like you can't
45:24
even have like man-to-man type conversations
45:26
, yeah , you can't even be treated like an adult
45:29
. Tucker carlson said this recently about
45:31
hr . You know he was
45:33
talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the . How did the dei stuff get into corporations through ? About hr , you know he was
45:35
talking about how just vile it is and it's tied to the . How did the dei
45:37
stuff get into corporations through the hr
45:39
department ? All the racial ? You
45:41
know all that stuff it's through hr . But
45:44
it's like I . You know he said he's like
45:46
I couldn't even go to an employee and be like hey , do you have a problem
45:48
with me ? No , no , no , no , you
45:50
got to go through hr . There's going to be a process
45:52
. You have have to gossip . You have to gossip . They're encouraging
45:55
gossip .
45:55
Yeah , it's interesting is so ? My wife , uh
45:58
, back when we were right
46:00
before we got married and right afterwards she was working
46:02
for this large , um
46:04
fortune 500 recruiting company
46:07
. So they hired everyone from doctors
46:09
and C-suite kind of guys to to
46:12
like hospital staff and
46:14
, um , you know , telemarketing
46:16
people , so everybody right . And
46:18
so she worked with a lot
46:20
of these HR recruiters , you
46:23
know , for different companies and
46:25
what's really interesting , so this
46:27
, this was , uh , 10 years plus
46:29
ago . Uh , she
46:32
said she had talked with one
46:34
of her , uh , her former coworkers and
46:36
just to get a temperature of what's going on
46:39
there . And she , she
46:41
got off the phone and she told me , like I am so
46:43
glad that I got out of there because
46:46
I would have had to have been fired . There's
46:48
no way I could have done this because
46:50
of all of the different DEI stuff , that's
46:53
, all the gay and woke stuff that's getting
46:55
jammed down everybody's throat . And
46:57
she , she said I , there's no way I would have
47:00
been able to , uh , to keep
47:02
my job there without getting fired . Um
47:04
, and , and so it's . It is really interesting
47:07
that , with the gatekeeping
47:09
that those are the people that they're
47:11
also attracting is that
47:13
there's the mandatory hiring
47:16
of sexually confused
47:18
people of uh
47:20
, different races and
47:22
uh of different religious backgrounds . Uh
47:25
, in in all for the sake of multiculturalism
47:28
. And so your corporations
47:30
, the , the people that are being financially
47:33
benefited are the people that are actually
47:35
destroying the moral fabric of
47:37
the United States , and so
47:39
I don't know , take that for what it's worth . Those
47:41
are the people , by the way , that have jobs and that vote
47:43
.
47:44
Yeah , well , it's so interesting too . And then , like , this has been
47:47
a hard one for a lot of people . I think
47:49
you know people will listen to this
47:51
, but you know feedback from right response conference
47:53
. I spoke on patriarchy . It
47:59
was good but it is hard because people were like I appreciate you're talking on patriarchy
48:02
, but it's been hard for my me to digest
48:04
. I've never heard a sermon on that or a sermon
48:06
on you know , women shouldn't be ruling
48:08
in society . That it's foreign . It's
48:22
the first time that you know they're hearing in the Bible that sort of thing . Yeah , completely
48:24
. Guys like CS Lewis up until pre 1960 , especially this was just common
48:26
fare to read any of the Puritans . If one of the publishers hasn't , you know , excised the good portions
48:28
from them , you'll find that that's all in there . But
48:30
what's interesting to me , dan , is OK . Okay
48:33
, here's what happens when I start talking
48:35
about these things . Uh , I gave my patriarchy
48:37
talk you can find on youtube which should probably
48:39
link to it . Um , at
48:41
right response . But I had some
48:44
pastor friends that I went to seminary with and
48:46
they were like this is the good thing about guys who preach
48:49
expositionally , by the way . They
48:52
listened to it and they were like you know I was
48:54
listening to it and I was having a hard time . But then I started looking
48:56
at the passages and I'm like I think he might
48:58
be onto something here like
49:01
you invented it , right , but but they're
49:03
. This is what I love .
49:04
They're good bereans and they're gonna go read the text , right
49:06
which is what I want people to do .
49:08
Don't take my word for it . Go go , you know
49:10
, read zach garris masculine christianity , he'll , he'll
49:13
show you . So that's , that's really helpful
49:15
. But it was really interesting because one of my pastor
49:17
friends said to me he goes
49:19
, you know , I'm I'm listening to you talk about this and , like , I
49:21
think you're right . Like , if , like , women are
49:24
made to be in the home , that's her . She's the oikos
49:26
despot is what Paul
49:28
calls her . She's to serve in the home . She's
49:31
not to be outward
49:37
facing in the civil magistrate sphere , she's not to be , even historically she . That's
49:39
why she wasn't voting . It was actually a protection
49:41
to women . You focus
49:43
on the home .
49:44
I'll take care of this , babe like we curse the society
49:46
if she rules yeah , curse the society .
49:48
We find that all throughout the , the scriptures , um
49:51
. But he said to me he goes . If all that's
49:53
true , I'm not
49:55
sure women should vote . So
49:58
here's where the rubber , I think , hits the road for
50:00
people is you go , but wait a
50:02
minute . That's crazy , isn't it ? Because
50:04
we've been raised on a steady diet , you can drive through Salt
50:07
Lake and you find all these signs . Like Mormons
50:09
were some of the first to have women voting
50:11
in the , you know the 19th amendment
50:13
, isn't that like we grew up with ? Like that's
50:15
a birthright ?
50:16
Yeah , and my city council . I think there's eight seats
50:18
and only two are men .
50:20
Really .
50:21
Yeah , that's disturbing Yep
50:23
.
50:23
So I guess you
50:26
know , as people start making the connection
50:28
points , there's a potential
50:30
that they go wow , you
50:38
guys are really weird .
50:39
But historically , would this have been seen as weird that women are voting yes ? Absolutely
50:41
, it would be weird .
50:42
We would be , the oddballs .
50:43
But the thing is that with our feminist
50:45
mind , our feminist hive
50:47
mind , they would say well , yeah , that's
50:50
because this is the first time in history that women have
50:52
not been repressed , correct
50:54
, they've not been subjugated because
50:56
of birth control and abortion rights
50:58
, sexual rights , reproductive
51:01
rights , so they could actually escape
51:03
the bondages of the home
51:06
, essentially transcending
51:08
their created purpose
51:11
to a higher plane
51:13
which is very transhumanist and
51:15
absolute garbage Right
51:17
. But one of the I
51:19
mean sexual revolution . Aside all
51:21
of that one , what does the scripture
51:23
say about women ? You
51:26
just mentioned some things . You know that women
51:28
are a curse , they're Oikos despot
51:30
, and that also they're
51:32
more easily deceived . I
51:35
think that's something that people try to
51:37
explain away .
51:38
Do you think that , if that's true , is
51:40
a woman in the workplace more easily deceived ?
51:44
Yes , she's a woman .
51:45
What about a woman in
51:48
politics ? Yes , because
51:51
what you're saying is in
51:53
her nature , in her yes , because
51:55
so she takes saying is in her nature yes .
51:58
So she takes that nature everywhere she goes . Paul roots it in created
52:00
order by saying it was Eve
52:02
that was deceived . Eve was
52:04
the one that was deceived , the first woman
52:06
, she was the one that was deceived , right
52:09
, not Adam , not the man . And
52:13
so , yes , ruling politics had
52:16
a school board , school school
52:19
master , you know , or a headmaster
52:21
, all the way down to the woman
52:23
that has the right to vote , which
52:25
, again , democracy . We're not the biggest
52:27
fans , but women
52:30
that can vote . All
52:32
you have to do is just pull up the statistics over
52:34
the last few elections and
52:37
just arrange it by men
52:39
who vote and women who vote , who they vote
52:41
for .
52:42
Well , it's interesting because the majority
52:44
of married women voted for Trump . I'm
52:47
not even talking red blue , I'm just saying married
52:49
women . The majority voted for Trump
52:51
. The vast , even
52:53
bigger majority of single women voted
52:56
for biden . Why do you think that
52:58
is because single women are made
53:00
to women , are made
53:02
to have a head , and I think
53:05
they're easily deceived . And the
53:07
democrat party knows especially
53:09
leftists know how to play the empathy card . They know how
53:11
how to manipulate women and
53:13
I think this is you know . Paul even says
53:15
this . You know that false
53:17
teachers were creep into house and prey
53:19
on women . Why do you
53:22
think it is that all these weak women , weak
53:24
women , all these , you know , women without a head
53:26
, women without a head , that's right . Why do you think all these lonely
53:28
widows and married widows who
53:31
are older are on like home shopping
53:33
network and are giving money to televangelists
53:35
because they don't have leadership
53:38
, they don't have headship , which is actually
53:40
a protection . So this is the
53:42
other thing that lewis is really good about
53:44
is the men are there to lead as protectors
53:47
, like peter . Being high king isn't like
53:49
great . Now , woman , go make me
53:51
a sandwich . That's not what
53:53
that is about the headship
53:55
is for . You know , know , lewis will say in other
53:57
essays , male headship and
53:59
rule should look like the
54:02
cruciform life .
54:03
He even highlights this with Jadis and
54:06
the planet that she comes from
54:08
and how she made the decision to
54:10
kill everyone .
54:12
I think he actually . This
54:14
is the witch in the line , the witch in the wardrobe but
54:17
he actually .
54:18
but it's magician's nephew is what I'm talking about
54:20
. Yes , yeah .
54:21
But in I think it's in the
54:23
line the witch in the wardrobe he refers to her as an
54:26
offspring of Lilith , which is
54:28
pretty interesting . I didn't catch that
54:30
in previous readings of that , but that
54:32
is pretty interesting . So but he
54:34
ties it to the fall . I think in
54:37
the Jewish myth it's like a Talmudic myth
54:39
. I think Lilith is Adam's first wife
54:42
or something like this Bad
54:44
lady , hence the
54:46
witch title .
54:48
Yes , but she is the picture
54:50
of the female ruler
54:52
in his world . Yes , I mean as
54:55
well as , like the , the green snake lady I
54:57
can't remember her name now , but but yeah
54:59
, uh , so you have a couple of pictures of
55:01
what . What about , though
55:03
, let me ask you , with lucy
55:06
and um and
55:08
um , susan , they're queens
55:11
, what ? What about them ? Because
55:13
they're ruling as well , correct ?
55:15
somebody brought that up , uh , in one of the comments
55:17
. But it's interesting what their rule looks like . Uh
55:20
, because they're not going to battle and
55:24
they are definitely subservient
55:26
. I mean , it's clear that edmund and peter
55:28
are in charge , like they're the ones
55:31
making the primary decisions and
55:33
we don't get a big part of the
55:35
story where they're , you know , Queens . No
55:37
, I think even Lucy being given like her primary
55:40
gift from Father Christmas is healing . She
55:42
has a dagger , but it's small and it's for self-defense
55:45
, but her primary thing is
55:47
healing . And even with Susan
55:49
she has the horn calling for help . It's
55:52
like a rape whistle , I guess .
55:54
Basically , no , no , it's not . It actually
55:56
has a bigger theme , what you were mentioning
55:58
. Uh , in in in caspian
56:01
.
56:01
Oh , it's beautiful but , yeah , she's the one
56:03
who calls back to the kings of old to come and
56:05
the old narnia , or her horn , caspian
56:08
blows the horn , but they come to save the old
56:10
narnia . So , yeah , there's these great themes
56:12
, um , that are tied to it , but
56:15
, but I , functionally , I think it's the same instinct
56:17
where , uh , people are like , oh
56:20
yeah , like in the comments , people are like , oh
56:22
, women aren't supposed to rule . I guess
56:24
you've never heard of Esther
56:26
. I'm like that story does not
56:28
prove that Esther was ruling . She's
56:31
a queen , uh
56:33
, but like , even the way she has to approach
56:35
ashtar , her ruth or whatever his name is , however
56:38
, you're supposed to say that , um is
56:40
like subservient and submissive as
56:43
a queen must . What happened to the first queen ? She
56:45
was dismissed because she was rude to
56:47
her husband .
56:48
yeah , well , he asked her . To display
56:50
her body , for you know his nobles
56:53
, so yeah there
56:55
was that , there's that .
56:57
but she was disobedient yes , she was to
56:59
her husband and so she , yeah , is removed
57:01
. So , yeah , I just think a lot of those cases
57:03
where people use that it doesn't actually prove what
57:05
they think it proves . I did have one guy , by
57:07
the way , in the comments . He said there
57:10
is no woman in the new testament who is
57:12
portrayed as doing anything other than
57:14
obeying the Lord . And
57:16
like in two seconds I was like , well , sapphira
57:19
was killed for disobeying God . That was the first one
57:21
that came to mind . Um , jezebel
57:23
was actually a false teacher in revelation two , 20
57:26
. And like
57:28
a real woman , I mean she's called Jezebel , but
57:30
it's , it seems to be , you know well , but it seems to be , you
57:32
know , referring to a real person in a real place
57:35
. So that's pretty interesting
57:37
. So you start adding this up and you're
57:39
like there's actually a lot of
57:41
Herod's wife , herod's wife's daughter
57:43
. I see a lot
57:45
of bad women . Yeah , actually
57:47
, wow . But that , that instinct
57:50
and I think that was a pastor who said that you
57:53
, basically you don't think women sin
57:55
and that's not at all what
57:58
history nor the scriptures have taught us .
58:00
No , explicitly no .
58:02
So , dan , I kind of want to wrap things up here
58:05
with why
58:07
you think headship . First
58:10
of all , I want to get in this broader question
58:13
. There's a lot of conservatives and a
58:15
lot of people in the reformed conservative camps who
58:17
are like look , I agree with you on
58:19
paper , but that's not the fight right now , and fundamentally
58:21
like , if we want to win wide
58:24
swaths of conservatives , we
58:26
can't talk about headship , not like that . So
58:30
is it worth it to be talking about
58:32
it Simply because
58:34
it's not pragmatically effective ?
58:38
Yeah , I think it could possibly
58:41
be the issue of our time
58:43
, the number one issue
58:45
of our time . I mean
58:47
, obviously , like people need to repent and believe
58:49
in the gospel and turn to Christ
58:51
and all of that , absolutely yes
58:53
. Gospel
58:57
and turn to Christ and all of that , absolutely yes . But the thing is , why do we , as Christians
58:59
, allow non-Christians to be married ? Because
59:02
there's actually blessing in marriage
59:05
. It's a picture of the gospel , though . Shouldn't that just
59:07
be for for Christians ? It's a Christian
59:09
. You know remnants of , you
59:11
know of of the of our
59:13
society . Why , why is that still
59:15
practice ? Why did gay people want to be married so
59:18
bad ? Different conversation , but the the
59:20
reason that we still would say it's a good thing
59:22
for two unbelievers to be married
59:24
instead of to live together without
59:26
being married , is because it's actually a
59:29
blessing for them to do that
59:31
and it's a blessing for society .
59:32
It's covenantal and creational .
59:34
It's covenantal and creational and so
59:36
, that being said
59:38
, right ordered homes are
59:41
the foundation of society . I
59:43
mean read CR Wiley on some
59:45
of this . I'm
59:48
sure Zach Garris talks about it . Any of the Westminster
59:51
divines , exactly , exactly
59:53
, when you have disordered homes , you have disordered
59:55
society . It's really simple . It's
59:58
really simple . And the thing is
1:00:00
institutions . You will see I
1:00:02
mean , we could probably all see this If
1:00:05
a church , as soon as a denomination or
1:00:07
a church puts a woman on
1:00:09
staff as an elder , it's
1:00:11
over . It is the slide
1:00:13
into irrelevance and to apostasy
1:00:16
.
1:00:16
Even if you call her a shepherdess or a deacon .
1:00:19
Yeah , or an admin , you know a
1:00:21
type a director
1:00:23
. A director is what the Baptists really like to do
1:00:25
.
1:00:25
Just use a different title , but she's functionally leading . Yes
1:00:28
, she's in a position of headship , she's
1:00:31
exercising authority over men , and you're right , I
1:00:33
mean , that's the end of the church and the denomination
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notes for more information .
1:03:22
Yeah , well , and so how much more society ? Well
1:03:25
, yeah , households ruled by women . When you have governments
1:03:27
ruled by women , when you have businesses ruled by women
1:03:29
, when you have militaries ruled by women or those
1:03:32
who dress like women , what are you going to
1:03:34
have the end ?
1:03:36
So part of this is sort
1:03:39
of it may be it's similar to the abortion conversation
1:03:42
, but it's like
1:03:45
the difference between abolition and the pro-life
1:03:47
movement . I think there's a lot of people
1:03:49
who are adjacent to our camp who would say things
1:03:52
like yeah , but we're not going to win that
1:03:54
fight today , like you're not going to repeal the 19th
1:03:56
amendment tomorrow , so we need
1:03:58
to start with , you
1:04:00
know , just the general gospel , right
1:04:03
, and so like don't , and they'll just
1:04:05
kind of get annoyed with us , like can
1:04:08
you please stop talking about like headship
1:04:10
and like girl boss Inc . And
1:04:12
you know , lady podcasters , because
1:04:15
conservatives aren't ready for that and
1:04:17
Republicans are like we need more bright women
1:04:19
leading out front . I've
1:04:22
heard that for years , you know , from the political
1:04:24
pundits . We need more pretty ladies
1:04:26
out front . So , strategically
1:04:29
, are we being unwise
1:04:32
by saying like no , we actually ? We
1:04:35
think this is a big issue , because
1:04:37
I think what I want to say to all that is
1:04:40
are you
1:04:42
ashamed of Christ's words or not
1:04:44
? Christ , paul
1:04:46
and the scriptures are
1:04:49
just abundantly
1:04:51
clear . What happens
1:04:54
when you put women in roles of leadership
1:04:56
? We are doing a disservice to women
1:04:58
, to men , to families and all society
1:05:01
, and so I think what you're saying
1:05:03
is like no , it's that important that
1:05:05
unless you get that right , it really doesn't
1:05:07
matter . On a lot of these other points
1:05:10
.
1:05:10
Well , yeah , and I think so much of our work here not
1:05:12
this episode in particular , but all
1:05:15
of the body of work that we've done what
1:05:17
we're trying to do and this is what the abolitionist
1:05:20
movement misses and the pro-life
1:05:22
movement misses is that they don't actually
1:05:24
paint a positive vision
1:05:26
for the future , and
1:05:29
so all you hear
1:05:31
from is fussing
1:05:33
, is essentially it's fussing
1:05:35
, and so not that abolitionism
1:05:38
is wrong .
1:05:39
I am yes , absolutely no
1:05:41
abortion whatsoever Criminal
1:05:43
punishment , and I'm sure there's like all of that within
1:05:45
that movement . You know , some do better than
1:05:47
others .
1:05:48
Yeah , yeah , individuals , I'm sure Individuals
1:05:51
, I'm sure do that . I
1:05:53
can think of a couple , but but overall
1:05:55
as a movement , it is the reputation
1:05:58
known as a positive vision
1:06:00
for the future . It's not and
1:06:02
and I understand , like the nature of abolition
1:06:05
, uh , movement is is that you're
1:06:08
trying to stop the murdering of children ? That
1:06:10
and that's , that's not . That's not the main point
1:06:12
I'm trying to make . Why would we message
1:06:14
the way that we do , to say
1:06:16
that one
1:06:18
of the biggest issues , if not the biggest
1:06:21
issue , in our time is
1:06:23
disordered gender roles , is
1:06:25
disordered homes , is women in leadership
1:06:28
? It's not insignificant
1:06:30
because of the rest of our body of work
1:06:32
, of painting the picture for the
1:06:34
new Christendom and the glories
1:06:36
that are to be had when you
1:06:38
obey Christ and you build for
1:06:40
his glory and for the sake of your people and
1:06:42
for your generations . It will bring blessings
1:06:45
to your children , to your grandchildren , to
1:06:47
the thousand generation , lord willing
1:06:49
. And so that's the overarching
1:06:52
theme how do you actually get there to
1:06:54
build a new Christendom ? Well , you have to obey the Lord
1:06:56
Jesus , and
1:06:58
that begins at home .
1:07:00
Yeah , and this is the crazy thing . Like you look at all
1:07:02
of Paul's , you know the major
1:07:04
New Testament letters , ephesians , romans
1:07:06
, et cetera . When you get to household
1:07:09
codes , where does Paul
1:07:11
start with obedience to the gospel
1:07:13
? Ephesians five it
1:07:16
begins , you know the this
1:07:18
is interesting . Well , guge even points to this out
1:07:20
it begins with women
1:07:23
submitting to their husbands . Well , and
1:07:25
then in Paul , even before his address to
1:07:27
to husbands , he says wives
1:07:29
, submit to your husbands . That's the
1:07:31
first thing that said about
1:07:34
obeying the gospel wives submit
1:07:36
.
1:07:36
Right , and you recall , in Titus two , when
1:07:39
, when Paul is telling Titus
1:07:41
teach younger women to
1:07:43
be workers at home , or older women , or
1:07:45
to teach younger women to be workers at home , lest
1:07:48
what happens , the word of God
1:07:50
be reviled .
1:07:53
Yeah . So if you're , if we're in part of these like conservative
1:07:55
, quasi conservative , christian adjacent
1:07:58
camps , and we say
1:08:00
, well , yeah , but this lady
1:08:02
, I know she's out in public , I know she's ruling
1:08:04
in her home , I know she's a politician or whatever
1:08:06
she is , but you know
1:08:08
, but it's better than nobody
1:08:10
doing it . But when you
1:08:12
think about something like Titus 2 , you're like , but
1:08:15
this is causing the word of God to be reviled
1:08:17
. Ultimately , isn't
1:08:20
that what God's word says ? Pretty
1:08:22
clear ? It's not . And
1:08:24
this is one of the things I think with modern evangelicals
1:08:26
. It's like , you know , what's really hard
1:08:28
in all of this is actually
1:08:30
that if you see what's clear in scripture and you just
1:08:33
go , okay , I'm going to obey that , now
1:08:35
you have people who hate you . Now people
1:08:37
are upset .
1:08:38
Well , possibly in your own home .
1:08:39
Yes , in your own families
1:08:42
, right ? This is where it causes
1:08:44
problems . I want to close on a positive though , because
1:08:46
you've you've been talking about positive vision , yeah
1:08:48
, and
1:09:00
I think a lot of people could listen to a podcast like this and they go , yeah , but that's not you . You , I hear this all the time . That was cs lewis's
1:09:02
day . Male headship doesn't work anymore . It simply doesn't work . You can't do it . Everything's
1:09:04
feminist or egalitarian to the core . You can't actually practice , and nobody
1:09:06
, dan , is practicing these things today , are they ? And
1:09:09
so what ? I ? I ? That's my question . Are
1:09:11
they ? Do you find places that could
1:09:14
you name , a place where
1:09:16
you actually see male
1:09:18
headship and females submitting and being happy
1:09:20
and marriages thriving ? Do you
1:09:22
know such a place , dan ?
1:09:24
Yeah , I do .
1:09:25
Imperfectly , imperfectly .
1:09:27
But yeah , in Ogden , utah we see it in our
1:09:29
own church .
1:09:29
Yeah , so paint the picture for me , because do
1:09:33
a little CS Lewis , bring
1:09:35
me into the environment . What
1:09:37
is it like ?
1:09:40
I mean , let me just , let me just pull out CS
1:09:42
Lewis-esque writing .
1:09:44
I can barely get out a sentence without stumbling
1:09:46
. But think about this . It's like if
1:09:49
you place yourself in our environment
1:09:51
one of the things that I hear the most
1:09:53
from outsiders the ladies come
1:09:55
here and they're like I was actually a little scared about the patriarchy
1:09:57
stuff Like was it going to be super
1:09:59
judgmental , or were the other ladies going to judge
1:10:01
me ? Or like I don't dress well enough
1:10:04
or you know , I don't wear enough dresses
1:10:06
, or what if I'm not ready to head cover whatever
1:10:08
? They
1:10:10
come here and the number one thing I
1:10:13
hear is but the women are so joyful
1:10:15
and happy and there's
1:10:17
something about that that's magnetic .
1:10:19
Yeah , so again no , so imagine
1:10:21
with me if you will . I will you're
1:10:24
walking East on 26th
1:10:26
street in Ogden , utah , your
1:10:29
faces towards the mountains and
1:10:31
the sun is rising over it and
1:10:33
you see the snow cap peaks and
1:10:35
you hear the echoes of psalm 104
1:10:38
coming from a tall
1:10:40
, steepled church building that has stained
1:10:42
glass and brick and a cornerstone
1:10:44
uh , dedicated to a
1:10:47
failed church that accepted women
1:10:49
pastors . But inside is vibrant
1:10:51
life . And you walk through those
1:10:54
doors and you hear the ringing echoes
1:10:56
of my soul , thy great creator
1:10:58
, praise and see it filled with
1:11:00
happy faces , joyful faces , squealing
1:11:03
children , sopranos , sopranos
1:11:06
and and young , young children
1:11:08
singing off key , but as
1:11:10
loud as possible , but as loud as possible . And there
1:11:12
are men bouncing their children
1:11:14
in the back and wives
1:11:17
smiling at their husbands . And
1:11:19
it's that's what , that's what Sunday
1:11:21
is like at our church and
1:11:24
it it is absolutely amazing
1:11:26
, as you hear children , children
1:11:29
that know the Lord's prayer , they
1:11:32
know the Psalms , they know Psalm 134
1:11:35
, they know Psalm 2 . They know Psalm 104 . They
1:11:37
know Psalm 98 . They know all of
1:11:39
these Psalms , psalm 23 . And
1:11:42
you see children
1:11:44
being taken out of the service by their fathers
1:11:46
to the basement to be corrected
1:11:49
for stealing their brother's snack
1:11:51
, and women
1:11:54
are going to back to nurse
1:11:56
their , their children , and all
1:11:58
radiating with joy . Even
1:12:01
in the hard times there's joy and
1:12:03
there's fruit , and
1:12:05
there's one thing that's intangible , that you
1:12:07
can't see , but you can definitely
1:12:09
feel it , and there is a buzzing
1:12:11
zeal and youthful excitement
1:12:13
in the air that is contagious
1:12:16
and makes your heart sing .
1:12:18
It does . Yeah , wow , that was powerful
1:12:20
Dan .
1:12:22
You should be a writer . I
1:12:24
can barely read .
1:12:25
I can barely read . Don't let him fool you . Yeah
1:12:28
, that is beautiful and I think too , even you
1:12:30
mentioned the singing . Mm-hmm , you mentioned the singing
1:12:32
. The beauty of like a four part singing
1:12:35
is that when women and
1:12:37
they're usually soprano , right , soprano or alto
1:12:39
, but soprano is dominant
1:12:41
and then a lot of times carrying
1:12:43
the melody or something like that , but you get into
1:12:46
these fuguing tunes and you have the men in the bases
1:12:48
and the tenors , but a lot of bases . That's
1:12:50
my people . But do you think about
1:12:52
the way that they lead generally and how
1:12:54
a bass , the bass part , really fills
1:12:57
the place ?
1:12:57
It goes in first and fuguing tunes , which I think
1:13:00
is interesting .
1:13:00
It is . And then the melody carried
1:13:03
by the Sopranos is this sweet melodic
1:13:06
accent piece . It's beautiful
1:13:08
, it's glorious . When they're working together
1:13:10
, they're great . You take that same female voice and
1:13:12
you put her up front preaching and it's nothing but
1:13:15
screeching . So , and for
1:13:17
all of us , or or the bass , who's
1:13:19
like trying to sing with a lisp
1:13:21
, you know the whole point is God
1:13:23
created that order and that range
1:13:25
and for each , for
1:13:28
men and women , for each sex , to know their role
1:13:30
and know their place and fit , and what
1:13:32
you get at the end of the day , when you play your part and you
1:13:34
play your role that God gave you , you get
1:13:36
this beautiful hymn . And
1:13:39
when , if people like , if the sopranos go
1:13:41
, stand in the bass section and be like , no , I'm a man now
1:13:43
, it doesn't work .
1:13:49
It becomes annoying . Yeah , yeah , really . What you're identifying is that God weaved throughout nature
1:13:51
the harmony of the masculine and
1:13:53
the feminine , and one of the ways that he did that
1:13:55
was through voice , and
1:13:58
so when we sing four part
1:14:00
Psalms in harmony
1:14:02
together , you hear the blending
1:14:04
of these beautiful voices
1:14:07
of of the women with
1:14:09
the men as compliments to the men
1:14:11
, and it is absolutely gorgeous
1:14:14
in harmony . And it's the same
1:14:16
thing in a home when everyone knows
1:14:18
what their responsibilities , what their duties
1:14:21
are and where their roles are , you
1:14:23
have a house that is harmonious
1:14:25
, that is a fruitful place and
1:14:28
it is beautiful . But when you have
1:14:30
a disjointed roles
1:14:33
and duties and a
1:14:36
lack of clarity as to what those are
1:14:38
, you essentially have the orchestra
1:14:40
warm up before
1:14:42
before they all hit , like or whatever
1:14:44
.
1:14:45
It's like you're 12 year old , when they're like playing the violin
1:14:47
and you're like oh that's not
1:14:49
pleasant , and it it does result in pain
1:14:51
and actually death . Yeah , yeah
1:14:54
. No , that's really helpful , Dan . I appreciate
1:14:57
that . I appreciate this conversation . By
1:14:59
the way , come join us June 6th through 8th
1:15:01
in Ogden , Utah , if you want to hear some of that singing . There's
1:15:04
going to be a packed house . One
1:15:07
of the other things we want to let you know we'll be at Ogden
1:15:09
High School , a very beautiful building . You can catch some of the
1:15:11
Instagram reels are up about
1:15:13
that to see what that building looks like on
1:15:15
my Eric on my Instagram
1:15:17
or on Brian's surveys a bunch of pictures
1:15:20
and stuff like that . It's going to be a beautiful venue
1:15:22
. We're going to have at least 650
1:15:25
people , because that's what we got today and
1:15:27
there's going to be more , Dan , but there's going to be glorious
1:15:29
singing .
1:15:30
Sunday is going to be great because our whole church is going
1:15:32
to be here .
1:15:32
Well , that's what I want to encourage people to . One of the things
1:15:35
that we need to talk more about is
1:15:37
that we will have Ogden High School for
1:15:39
Sunday service , so we
1:15:41
won't be in the church building , so that we can accommodate everybody
1:15:44
who's here and in town . So we want
1:15:46
to encourage you , we need like four services . Yeah
1:15:48
, it just wouldn't work . So
1:15:52
if you're in town , please stay . We'd love to have you for worship on Sunday
1:15:55
in Ogden , utah . I guess that'll
1:15:57
be the 9th , the 9th , june
1:15:59
9th . Come and join us . Go
1:16:01
to the link in the show notes or go to new Christendom press
1:16:04
dot com slash conference to sign
1:16:06
up for that conference . We look forward to seeing you guys
1:16:08
there once again . Dan , thank you so much
1:16:10
for joining me for this episode . Hedgehip is great
1:16:12
, we love it . Dan , thank you so much for joining me for this episode . Headship is great , we love it . And
1:16:15
CS Lewis Narnia , game changer
1:16:17
, game changer . Dan , do you remember our closing
1:16:20
?
1:16:24
I put you on the spot one more time
1:16:26
. Stay frosty .
1:16:28
Fight the good fight
1:16:30
and act like men . Let's go .
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