Episode Transcript
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0:00
Hey, it's me Corinn. Don't fast forward
0:02
this, okay.
0:03
I Am going on a fourteenth
0:05
city stand up comedy
0:07
tour with an hour of material
0:10
that you've never heard before.
0:12
I've elongated bits, I've worked on bits.
0:15
It's good. I'm really excited about it.
0:17
It's I have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty
0:19
four, featuring Chloy le Branch,
0:21
who you've heard on Guys We Fucked Podcast.
0:24
If you live in these cities, buy your tickets now.
0:26
I'm gonna go through them. Tampa, Florida April
0:28
seventeenth, Miami, Florida, April eighteenth,
0:31
Atlanta, Georgia, April nineteenth and twentieth,
0:33
Columbus, Ohio, April twenty fifth,
0:36
Raleigh, North Carolina, April thirtieth,
0:38
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, May first,
0:41
Boston May second, Portland,
0:43
Oregon, May fourteenth, San
0:45
Francisco May fifteenth, Sacramento
0:48
May sixteenth, Seattle May
0:50
seventeenth, Houston June twenty
0:52
seventh, and Austin June
0:55
twenty eighth and twenty ninth, and
0:57
then Salt Lake City, Utah, rounding
0:59
it out on September twenty sixth. All
1:02
the tickets for all those shows are available
1:04
now at Karinfisher dot
1:06
com. You can also get it at the linktree
1:08
link in any of my bios on
1:10
social media. I'm at Philanthropy Gal
1:13
again. I have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty
1:15
four. Get your tickets now, see you
1:17
there. We're gonna have a blast.
1:19
Welcome the guys We find the anti
1:22
slut shaming podcast. I'm
1:25
Christina Hutchinson, I'm Kuren Fister, and
1:27
I'm gona boys friends,
1:29
bring us So it's flooding your horny and
1:31
your shame. Heys, what yes,
1:34
Okay, we're
1:38
here recording, recording, rolling,
1:40
Yay, this is
1:43
first step.
1:44
Great.
1:44
Yeah, okay, greetings,
1:46
fuckers, how you doing where you've been
1:49
or your socks clean? Welcome to another
1:51
episode of Guys We Fucked.
1:53
It's the anti slut shaming podcast. I'm
1:55
Karen Fisher, I'm Christina Hutchinson. Welcome
1:58
to the show. Los Angeless
2:00
May eleventh.
2:01
Are you there? So we're gonna be
2:03
doing the live episode of Guys We Fucked for the Netflix
2:05
is a joke festival.
2:06
It's a live podcast for recording. You're gonna
2:08
want to be there. It's at the Regent Theater. This
2:10
is fancy. This is a big deal. Let's
2:13
not have everyone regret it, including ourselves.
2:15
Yes, please buy ticket now, don't.
2:17
Wait, don't make us. We're gonna
2:19
give you the spiel. It's I feel like it's stick.
2:21
Your guys is kink to make us sweat it out, and then ultimately
2:23
the room is always full and like, Okay,
2:27
all's well, that ends well, I guess, guys,
2:29
but you.
2:29
Know it's better. All's well, that's well. The whole time,
2:32
we're not call our daddy. We can't afford to have Netflix
2:34
pissed at us. We can't, we can't.
2:37
We don't.
2:37
They already didn't like I hate so
2:39
much, and they made it so clear. So the fact that they even
2:41
are letting us do this festival is.
2:43
Like very Yeah, we can't make Daddy
2:45
mad. It was a surprise. Let's not have Daddy
2:48
get angry. Buy your ticket.
2:50
Please get all of our link tree bios at
2:52
guys, we fucked without the U and fucked. I'm at Christina
2:54
Hutch, I'm at Philanthropy. Ou O click
2:56
those links, baby, It's very accessible,
2:59
very excessive. Oh
3:01
my goodness, jesus.
3:02
Okay, guy, if you want to send us an email, it's
3:04
sorry about last night's show at gmail dot
3:06
com. This subject line says five months pregnant
3:09
and want my husband to take a dick
3:11
pill.
3:12
Okay, sounds tommy one. Mommy
3:14
gets what mommy wants.
3:15
Hi, Corn and Christina love you both and the show.
3:17
Your podcast is the only one I listened to
3:19
religiously. Thank you anyway. I'm
3:21
thirty one and my husband is thirty three. We've been together
3:24
for nine years, married for almost three. He
3:26
is my favorite person and I'm incredibly
3:28
attracted to him still.
3:30
I love the use of stow. I really love comedically.
3:32
I love how shocked you are by it, writer.
3:34
I really love the stow. I'm five
3:36
months pregnant and super horny all the time.
3:38
That makes me want of a baby like I could fuck one
3:40
to two times a day if we had the time.
3:43
My husband has always had a lower sex drive than
3:45
me, but usually he is always down to have sex, especially
3:47
because he knows how horny I've been lately.
3:49
Good because you are carrying that baby. It's
3:51
a lot of work.
3:52
The problem is his dick just isn't getting
3:54
as hard as it used to. It's hard
3:57
enough, but not like rock hard.
3:59
I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah for sure.
4:02
Sometimes it'll go soft in the middle of having sex,
4:04
and it's never a big deal.
4:07
That wouldn't be I wouldn't love that thirty three were
4:09
young. We just take a break
4:12
and he will focus on me. But I miss his
4:14
super hard dick me too.
4:16
I tried to see if waiting a few extra days
4:18
to have sex would help, but it's still only
4:20
just hard enough.
4:22
God, and we all know that feeling. They
4:24
just hard enough dick. I go, I'm just yeah,
4:27
I'm just gonna have a snack. I just like I rather eatwich.
4:29
I would rather eat a piece of chocolate cake than
4:31
deal with your semi erect penis what
4:33
am I.
4:34
Supposed to do with that? And
4:36
look, die is your dick semi
4:38
erect? It's only a personal tack.
4:40
If that's the cake, that's because you and
4:42
you don't eat vegetables, Eric.
4:43
I do eat vegetables.
4:44
I have a very healthy diet. I okay, really,
4:47
yeah? Would you eat today?
4:48
I had three hard boiled eggs?
4:50
Oh, guest on over here? Yeah?
4:54
Oh man morning? Okay. I want
4:56
to gently suggest he literally, he
4:59
used literally any dick enhancing pay
5:01
it like that.
5:02
He has even mentioned that other
5:04
male comedian podcasts have made him want
5:06
to try a dick pill.
5:07
There we go.
5:08
But he just said it in passing because he all,
5:10
you got to talk to him. He needs you to get desperate,
5:13
apparently, any advice for a horny pregnant
5:15
woman. Thanks, Buy them for him and leave them out in
5:17
a little dish, like a candy dish. I've
5:19
done this for people, don't. I don't have to be cute about
5:21
it. No, just leave it where
5:23
you know he will see it. Or you can be like sexy
5:26
like ooh, like you want to make your fucking dick rock
5:28
hard? Baby, I got you this blue shoe. I heard it's
5:30
gonna be rock card.
5:31
Yeah, or just playing this part of the podcast
5:33
right now, Wow, gain an extra
5:36
half inch, just
5:38
just for the spectacle.
5:39
Just take it, and it's worth it, gain
5:41
a half an inch. I know, guys, well,
5:43
I guess if it's harder. Yeah, I know.
5:46
It's like when your hair is wet and it looks longer, you know.
5:49
I know.
5:50
I know guys who like
5:52
don't are not even having any easy
5:55
issues, and they will take a
5:57
dick pill just to like make it like a
5:59
super dick. Yeah, they can do it. You
6:01
can certainly do it.
6:02
I just really don't have any I have. I have sympathy
6:05
for people that they have the problem initially, but I don't
6:07
have any sympathy for people who aren't doing anything about
6:09
it because of the fucking highest
6:12
ass standards women are held to in a society.
6:15
You have a problem, that's fine, fucking
6:17
do something about it. Enough is enough.
6:19
Doesn't have to be a problem. It doesn't have to be a problem.
6:21
There are so many especially when when
6:23
for men getting hard, there
6:26
are a thousand products on the market to
6:28
fix this, because nothing nothing
6:30
worse for a man than him
6:32
not being able to use his dick flail it
6:34
around.
6:35
Okay, they've made the product, you
6:37
consume it.
6:38
Yeah, and if he works out, I mean
6:40
tell them to take it go for a workout, because
6:43
that I mean just the that performance
6:45
alone.
6:46
Is taking a dick pill and working out in the fucking
6:49
Oh.
6:49
I don't know if you afterwards, but you
6:52
just take to work out. No,
6:55
but I have taken them and then like day
6:57
of it's I've gone to like the gym and
6:59
I'm like, oh, I can run for so much
7:01
longer.
7:02
Whoa everything longer? It opens
7:04
up your uh chakra.
7:06
Sure we'll say that, dickra
7:09
you're.
7:10
Dickra Yeah, you just
7:12
put it somewhere because you're
7:14
carrying that baby. You
7:16
your pregnancy happens to make you very horny.
7:19
He needs to be of service
7:21
as the guy who just went into
7:24
you to make that baby happen. You're the one cooking
7:26
it, Okay, you're doing all the hard work.
7:28
I also wonder though, like if it's something like
7:30
if it did your pregnancy and
7:32
him having dick problems, did that go one hundred
7:34
percent hand in hand because some people, it's
7:37
like some guys in their heads are
7:39
weird about like just hitting the baby.
7:41
Yeah, just like it feels like and I can kind of understand
7:43
this. Not not that hitting because you're not gonna actually hit the baby.
7:45
That's just like them not understanding science. But
7:48
it's like there is something that maybe
7:50
you don't want to, like you you don't want to just absolutely
7:53
like eviscerate the pussy of the woman
7:56
like holding your child. Yeah right,
7:58
you know, I get that. I understand that
8:00
part of it. Yeah, you know, but he needs to
8:02
take a medicine and get past that.
8:05
Okay. Yeah, I mean I'm weird, Like
8:07
I had sex this morning and
8:09
my dog was buried under
8:11
the blanket I'm like, you can't be in here. You got to leave,
8:14
Kevin. Yeah, that's weird. Can't. Yeah, it's weird. I can't.
8:16
Yeah. So I can see
8:18
a guy being like, well, there's a baby. I can't
8:20
see it, but I know you obviously you know it's
8:22
there. I can't understand that. Yeah, I can do it.
8:24
I can rationalize this for sure. And some women
8:26
aren't horny during pregnancy and some arm and I'm like,
8:29
if you're horny, that means you owe me your dick.
8:31
Sorry, We're in this together, teamwork.
8:33
I mean, listen, we've told many women on this podcast
8:35
to fucking suck it up and fuck their boyfriend. So yeah,
8:38
honestly, yeah, this is
8:40
we're giving, I think, really equal opportunity.
8:43
Yes, And if
8:45
you are in Springfield, Missouri,
8:48
where are you at Springfield, Missouri? I'm headlining
8:50
the Blue Room Comedy Club
8:52
March twenty second and twenty third. My
8:54
debut stand up comedy album, Goog Girl Barbara
8:57
is available wherever you get your stand up album Spotify,
8:59
I Heard Radio app and iTunes
9:02
are the iTunes store. I
9:04
have a Patreon where once a
9:06
week I do group zoom therapy. Therapy
9:09
is what I call because I'm not a licensed therapist, Chad,
9:12
and I'm also doing on my
9:14
solo podcast, The Voices in Our Heads. I'm currently
9:16
doing a deep dive on this
9:18
book called Supercharged Self Healing
9:20
by RJ. Spina, who, as I've mentioned before,
9:23
cured himself from chest down paralysis. There
9:26
is something I forgot, there is something I want to talk
9:28
about this intro, but it has to do with this. So I'm
9:30
reading a couple pages of each chapter on the end
9:32
of The Voices in Our Heads. It's
9:34
a really powerful book and he gets
9:37
very potent exercises, and then
9:39
I'm finishing the chapter readings on my Patreon,
9:41
So if you just sign up for five bucks a month, you get to listen
9:43
in on those zoom sessions, but you also get to listen in
9:45
on the bonus chapter readings.
9:47
But one thing I just wanted to give everybody because I feel
9:49
like it would be very helpful specifically to this show.
9:52
RJ. Spina, who's the author of the book.
9:54
He has another book out let
9:57
me get the exact title. It says some similar
9:59
stuff. It's called change your deprogramming
10:01
your subconscious mind, rewire the brain, balance
10:03
your energy. He has this one notebook
10:06
exercise that I thought could be beneficial
10:08
to any listener that
10:10
kind of them finds themselves in relationship
10:14
pattern that you don't like. He
10:16
basically says that buy
10:19
a notebook and a pen, and if you could take off
10:21
work grade. If you can't find just
10:23
do it at work if you can. If not, just do it when you're not
10:25
at work. But basically interrogate
10:28
yourself. So every time you go to text
10:30
somebody, or you go to scroll on social media,
10:32
or you go to do something, or you get stuck in
10:34
this thought pattern, take a pause and
10:36
write down what you're doing and ask yourself why
10:39
why are you doing that? And the goal is
10:41
to uncover your subconscious
10:43
bringing your subconscious programming
10:46
into your consciousness and it kind of makes it dissolve
10:49
and you gain all this confidence. It's a very intriguing
10:51
exercise. I myself have not done
10:53
it yet, but this one example he gave
10:55
I wrote down because I'm like, I want to share this. So
10:59
this one woman who was a of RJ's he
11:01
suggested this. She basically on paper, she's
11:03
a Reikie healer, her career is going well.
11:05
She can't even take on any more new clients because her business
11:08
is going so good, but
11:10
she said, every relation, intimate relationship
11:12
I've have sucks the life out
11:14
of me, and it's ruining my good time
11:16
and all the things that she's worked on for her career. So
11:19
she did this notebooks exercise and it completely
11:21
transformed her. One
11:24
of the examples that she gave that r J shares
11:26
in the book was so she went to text her boyfriend
11:28
to see how he's doing, and he
11:30
just says, ask yourself, why are you doing that?
11:33
Why it's because I feel responsible for his happiness.
11:35
Why do you feel responsible for his happiness because
11:37
it's my job to make sure he's happy. Why
11:39
does it feel like that's your job? And she said,
11:41
because I don't want to fail? And
11:44
then she asked herself, why do
11:46
you think you failed if someone isn't happy?
11:48
And she answered that question saying, because it means
11:50
I'm not good enough, good enough for what for
11:53
anybody? I don't deserve to be in a relationship.
11:55
If I can't make someone happy, I need to
11:57
make someone else happy so I feel better about
11:59
my my self conscious need to
12:01
make people happy is because I don't value
12:03
myself, so I constantly focus on making sure everybody
12:06
else is doing good. She
12:08
said she would listen and obsess over what
12:10
she could do to fix people, and I was like, oh wow,
12:12
this this woman did this notebook exercise
12:14
for like a week and it completely transformed.
12:16
And all it is is just bringing in the
12:19
root of your of the habits
12:21
that you do when your kind of need jerk reactions to like people
12:23
please, for example, it's a super toxic trait, and
12:26
it's kind of easier to get to the bottom of things
12:28
than we think. You just ask yourself why, sit
12:30
there for a second and really honestly answer
12:33
it, and then just the act of
12:35
answering it and bringing it to light will make you more aware
12:37
of why you do that. So a lot of people
12:39
get stuck in negative relationship patterns with
12:42
romance, and I think that's a good little tool. So
12:44
for me to you have fun enjoy it sounds
12:47
like she needs some reking on herself. Well,
12:49
it's always the healers that are the most fucked up people,
12:52
the therapists.
12:53
I just it's so it's like it's actually
12:55
like funny at this point, Like whenever a time I hear
12:57
like someone going through like some kind of a journal
12:59
prompt or that like I was intrigued by the initial
13:01
question very much. I'm always you know, unhappy in
13:03
these in relationships. And then I'm like, yea
13:06
on edge of my see, I'm like, what's the answer, and then I go, oh,
13:08
immediately have nothing in common with this person?
13:10
Oh yeah, not relate to me.
13:13
Yeah. The goal is to uncover like you're
13:15
operating from a place of insecurity and
13:17
if you can, if you can just bring that to the surface
13:19
by verbalizing it or just writing it down
13:21
on this exercise case, a
13:23
lot of times, that'll make you stop doing it, Yeah,
13:26
which is pretty cool. That's why it's like good to get to the
13:28
root of the problem, to identify it. Yes,
13:30
and then you can do the most
13:32
important step, which is fix
13:35
it in charge of your own life. Fucking
13:38
fix it. Personal responsibility. Baby,
13:40
it's what's for dinner. It's amazing. And I
13:42
was also you know, it's your personal responsibility.
13:45
Everyone buying a ticket to one of my Eye of
13:47
the Tiger twenty twenty four shows.
13:55
Okay, I will be on the road a
13:57
lot in April, May, going into June and
13:59
September a little bit with the one and only
14:01
Chloe Labranch. So
14:04
here are the cities and the dates. It's
14:06
Tampa April seventeenth, Miami
14:08
April eighteenth, Atlanta April
14:10
nineteenth and twentieth, Columbus, Ohio,
14:13
April twenty fifth, Raleigh,
14:15
North Carolina, April thirtieth, Philadelphia
14:17
May first, Boston May second, Portland,
14:20
Oregon, May fourteenth, San
14:23
Francisco May fifteenth,
14:25
Sacramento May sixteenth, Seattle,
14:27
Washington, May seventeenth, Houston,
14:29
Texas June twenty seventh, Austin, Texas
14:32
June twenty eighth and twenty ninth, and Salt
14:34
Lake City, Utah, September twenty sixth.
14:36
Ticks are available at Corinnefisher
14:39
dot com. It's on the main page, but you could also click
14:41
live if you want more of that. It's accessible.
14:44
You can also access it via the link
14:46
tree link in my bio on Instagram
14:48
at Philanthropy gal. Again, you're
14:50
gonna come to the show, just buy the tickets sooner than
14:52
later, because a lot of these are one
14:55
nighters. A couple are like a couple shows at night,
14:57
but like they do track it and if everyone waits
14:59
till like the week of the shows
15:01
will get canceled. Not that this is in danger of happening
15:03
already, but We're just like we just know from the past, like
15:05
this is how this is. Our
15:08
listeners like to buy tickets late and
15:10
that is bad.
15:11
Yep, it's not not good. So please
15:14
stop doing that. We appreciate
15:16
you coming. But if you could make a decision, you know,
15:19
two weeks, three weeks in advance, that would be great.
15:21
And uh, just just think about
15:24
how that like it.
15:24
You know, think of how you feel when a
15:26
guy you like texts you for plans
15:29
day of instead of setting it
15:31
like a couple days in advance. Think of how much
15:33
better the in advanced plans feel
15:36
okay and they really care.
15:38
Yeah, it feels like you really wanted to be there
15:40
and it's not just a last fucking restort.
15:43
Oh, this other girl didn't text me, so courn you want to go out
15:45
to dinner exactly exactly.
15:48
And additionally, yeah, it just helps us prepare
15:51
everything. And of course, and this happened
15:53
in Washington, d C. But uh, if
15:55
you bring someone who doesn't listen to guys,
15:57
we bring someone who's not familiar with my
15:59
comedy and create a
16:01
new fan and bond with that person.
16:03
That is like amazing thing to do for
16:06
female comedians in general, because as we talk
16:08
about every week people don't cold see female
16:10
comedians, and they're going to get not one,
16:12
but two great female comedians, probably three if
16:14
there's a host. A lot of times they pick a female host for me
16:17
because I hold a knife up to their throat and I
16:19
sy female only. Otherwise they're not getting on my
16:21
fucking stage. But it's great,
16:23
and of course you can continue listening to without a Country.
16:27
Last week we went over my c Span appearance,
16:30
which was just fucking incredible.
16:32
The people who called in every week
16:35
we've been really diving in and again getting
16:37
closer and closer to that twenty twenty four election
16:39
that is going to be Biden versus Trump.
16:41
So you're gonna want to be politically aware.
16:44
And that's on YouTube or wherever you listen to
16:46
podcasts on Wednesdays,
16:49
all right.
16:50
And come see me, Yes, go ahead, and Edmonton,
16:53
Vancouver, Plano, Phoenix
16:56
or Minneapolis, and all those
16:58
those dates are in the link my bio at
17:01
Eric Freddy F R E. T. T Y
17:04
at Instagram.
17:04
Make sure you're following him even if you're not going
17:07
to code any of those shows. Guys support
17:09
Baby got to support the team, the team
17:11
of guys we fucked don't
17:13
send Eric.
17:14
Hand pictures though, hand pictures.
17:16
That's that was the thing that we had with Mike and Judge.
17:18
If you're hot based on the picture of your hand, yeah, he has he's
17:21
a he has a hand fixation. So people,
17:23
some people have ugly hands. Yeah, and they were
17:25
men were confidently sending my pictures
17:27
of their hands, and even us as non
17:30
hand aficionados, could tell that they
17:32
were not good hands. Oh yeah, there was some
17:34
hands build with those hands. Girl, Yeah, they were not
17:36
they were not or they're just like stubby little hands oh
17:39
dump thumbs. Yeah, just not good hands
17:41
that were coming in.
17:42
So listen to my
17:44
podcast, the podcast at
17:46
Eric It's Eric and Diego have
17:48
Sex only on Patreon.
17:50
What wow? Is
17:52
this a new podcast?
17:53
No, I've had it for like a year, but it's.
17:55
Called Eric and dieg ide It was his room. Eric
17:58
and Diego have said, yes, And
18:01
what inspired you to call it that?
18:03
We just thought it is funny, a.
18:07
Bit of an earwork.
18:08
We wanted to gay bait a little bit
18:11
community.
18:12
Wow, I just say
18:14
that. Oh
18:17
my god.
18:18
All right, well, uh, you know it
18:20
is award season and as every awards
18:22
season goes, there will be a man
18:25
on stage who was once broken
18:27
but was brought back to life talking
18:29
about Robert by the love of one. Yes, I am
18:31
talking about Robert down.
18:36
I think everyone. I think.
18:37
I think I've gotten so deeply into
18:40
our listeners' brains that I was sitting there
18:42
hoping I was. I was, like anyone who listens
18:44
to guys we fucked and is also watching the
18:46
Oscars right now knows I'm going to feel
18:48
some sort of way about this speech.
18:49
And let me just preface this.
18:51
By saying, I love
18:53
Robert Downey gin your He is so fucking
18:56
hot. He is one of the hottest people
18:58
to ever exist. He looked so fucking hot
19:00
last night that Zaddy. I mean,
19:02
that guy's like he's getting up there in
19:05
eight. He's in his sixties.
19:06
He's yeah, he's he's
19:09
elderly, and
19:11
he is so fucking feign
19:15
I fifty eight. Yeah, okay,
19:17
so I'm sorry, he is almost sixty. That's
19:21
not elderly. I'm gonna retrash it. That's great
19:23
to know that you could be that hot at sixty.
19:25
I think it's not very common, but for Robert.
19:29
Well, and also keep in mind that, like I think, he also
19:31
looked older previously because of all the excess
19:34
of drug use. So now, in comparison to
19:36
how he used to look like, he's he's probably
19:38
really like obsessed with health, because you
19:40
know how people with addiction get obsessed with something
19:42
else. He probably got obsessed with like taking
19:45
care of himself. And so in his
19:47
you know, he's he's been with his
19:49
current wife for a while. You know, of course he hasn't
19:51
just been married once. He's a celebrity, but he's he
19:53
doesn't have a terrible track record, right, And
19:57
so he looks down at his wife.
19:59
And she's a movie producer, which makes sense someone who
20:01
has control of a fucking situation. A
20:03
lot of these delinquent men will go with female
20:06
Hollywood movie producers, which even
20:08
though I am a creedive my personality
20:10
type is definitely a Hollywood producer.
20:12
It's not talent. Talent's all over the place, can't
20:15
fucking remember to pay their own rent. I have producer
20:17
energy, Yes you do.
20:19
And so I know that, and I so anytime
20:21
I said, I go, oh, this is a situation I would
20:23
find myself in somehow.
20:24
And he looks down at her, right, and he and
20:26
you know and everyone.
20:27
It's very well known in Hollywood that Robert
20:29
Downing Junior has had a bumpy road with addiction,
20:32
like just a excess of drug
20:35
sex worker just like you know, all this kind
20:37
of stuff and not that and you know, sex worder is bad, but he
20:39
managed to do it badly, and
20:42
so he I mean it's you know,
20:44
he even makes a joke about him, you know, kind
20:46
of being unensurable for a good amount
20:48
of his Hollywood career. And he looks
20:51
down at his wife and he said, you
20:53
know, a really talented, successful
20:57
person in her own right.
20:58
And he and he goes, you know, baby,
21:01
you loved me. Back to life, and
21:03
everyone in the in the audience goes, oh,
21:05
everyone's heart strengths are being tugged. That's
21:07
not cute.
21:08
And I don't know why it is, is society, how we can't
21:10
get that out of our head, that that's not cute. This
21:13
woman, I mean, she's probably twenty
21:15
and she looked forty.
21:16
Yeah. I was like she was no,
21:18
no. But I'm just saying, like, because of how much
21:21
time he's taken off of her life.
21:23
The told he's taken on this woman, right,
21:25
yeah, And like I appreciate that he's
21:28
acknowledging her public of course, I appreciate
21:30
that. He can't undo his thus as it happens,
21:32
it happened. He can appreciate her.
21:34
He can think her publicly.
21:36
But that's not enough. I hope he's doing and
21:38
maybe he is behind the scenes. I hope he's doing
21:41
a thousand times more for that for
21:43
her. I hope he is stepping up in ways
21:45
above and beyond as a an eternal
21:47
thank you to this woman. You know, what's
21:49
likely that it happens you put in the shee runner one day.
21:52
But I want to think.
21:53
Positively about this, right, But what I
21:56
did not appreciate everyone's reaction
21:58
in the crowd, Grow the fuck up.
22:00
That's not cute, Like, that's not we're
22:03
thinking.
22:03
We're we're giving a thank you
22:05
as number one as we're accepting an oscar?
22:07
Still something for us? Still something? What did
22:09
she get? Where's her oscar? Where's her oscar? For
22:12
digging you out of a meth ditch? Robert? And
22:14
then so as a society, like
22:17
I.
22:17
Would like to us
22:19
to reframe our thinking and stop giving men
22:22
credit for like yet, like, how
22:24
about if you just didn't go to the worst
22:26
depths of yourself? Because I know so many
22:28
women who didn't. What if you just didn't travel there
22:30
and make a woman pluck you out of it, what can
22:33
we And what if we just all applauded you for
22:35
not ever going there.
22:36
But let's just applaud for that.
22:38
Let's give Matt Damon a round of applause for just not
22:40
ever doing that. You know, there are a couple
22:42
marrying a waitress, right, just just being
22:45
like a fucking normal person.
22:47
Yeah, and uh
22:49
yeah. And then but then I started thinking of like,
22:51
you know, we get getting very into the woo
22:54
woo and like our roles and how who we
22:56
were in past lives are these lives? And
22:58
I was like maybe.
22:59
Then another part of me was started thinking, like I've
23:02
tried to fight against this,
23:04
this.
23:05
Like a dynamic for so long.
23:08
It's a battle. I am. I'm not personally
23:11
losing it, but I feel like as
23:13
women, we are still losing this battle, right,
23:16
And so then I started thinking, what if
23:19
for the iteration of your life,
23:21
for the lifetime that you are a woman, or the lifetimes
23:23
that you are a woman, is it just
23:26
our role in the dynamic
23:28
of society to fix broken
23:31
men? Is that just it? Is that?
23:33
Is that the challenge that we are supposed to be getting
23:36
through in that lifetime.
23:37
Is that another option?
23:39
I don't know, because it feels so overwhelming,
23:42
and we are constantly and I mean I think this is the patriarch.
23:44
We are constantly like applauded for
23:47
helping broken men.
23:49
It doesn't feel good, No, it's
23:51
not. It's exhausting, and it comes
23:53
from a place of Usually if you repair a
23:55
broken man, it's coming from a different place,
23:58
right, Like you're like trying to fix something else, nothing
24:00
to do with him.
24:01
I mean, or you think that you just have to
24:03
do that much work in order to receive love.
24:05
I think it's more like that totally. But
24:09
what is yeah, like what and
24:13
as but as also as as people
24:15
not part of these relationships where a
24:17
woman is fixing a broken man, we need to stop.
24:20
We need to stop applauding like the
24:22
man for like a minimal thank you for
24:25
the chaos, and have
24:28
the key rates on this woman's life and then
24:30
also like stop applauding the woman.
24:32
For doing that.
24:33
I'm gonna actually say, like stop, maybe
24:35
if we stopped rewarding women for doing
24:37
these things, they would stop doing
24:40
them. You know, how will we only applaud
24:42
her for like producing the
24:44
amazing movies? That she's produced
24:46
and not for you know, because he literally
24:48
said he's like you found me when I mean, it was like the
24:51
language he used was like you you
24:53
know and again like if it is no Hollywood
24:56
mystery that Robert Downey Junr. Was fucking
24:58
rock bottom And then there's a part of me I thought
25:00
that was, like, what did she find appealing about
25:03
Robert Downey Junior at rock bottom? Did she
25:05
see the potential, the Zaddy,
25:08
the charismatic Oscar Award
25:10
winning actor that was inside of him?
25:12
And she decided this is this is my next
25:14
project that I want to produce. This is this next
25:17
thing that I want to embark on.
25:18
I don't know. I can't answer these questions.
25:20
Only she can, and like so
25:22
often like and there has to be something
25:24
to it because so often like I'm at home,
25:26
dry heaving, and the woman you know is
25:29
seems proud and happy with
25:31
this little acknowledgment.
25:33
And I don't want to take that away from that. If
25:36
you feel proud, good fucking enjoy
25:38
that, Yeah, But I just it makes me have such
25:40
larger questions about relationships,
25:43
especially had her sexual relationships and societies,
25:47
like I mean, we love a comeback story
25:50
of course you love a comeback story. And
25:53
I do think too, like when you're with a romantic
25:55
partner and you love them,
25:58
like even with my friends, like I'll see
26:00
the best in them, and so maybe it's
26:03
like that, like I see how good
26:05
you are, and I see all the muck
26:07
on top of it that you don't really see
26:09
right now.
26:10
But she she didn't even It's not like she met him. He
26:12
fell into addiction and then she got right. She
26:14
met him when he was I mean,
26:16
I'm guessing probably incoherent.
26:18
I'm probably pretty charismatic and charming,
26:21
probably like I don't know, like like okay, like
26:23
what like I mean he was using what like what
26:25
drugs?
26:25
He is so charming and so hot, Oh my god, Yeah,
26:28
like the sex appeal probably wasn't that
26:30
watered down with the addiction stuff. Like
26:33
sometimes it's hard to tell. Yeah,
26:35
but I will say too as somebody and I've said this before,
26:37
but I just I'll remind you I was using
26:39
heroin and crack fuck,
26:42
so he was okay, wow, those are
26:45
very opposite drugs. See, because I
26:47
know it's not just like a Hollywood guy who's
26:49
buzzing on coke. This this is
26:52
it says it says by nineteen
26:54
ninety five, he had descended into the harrowing
26:57
depths of heroin and cracked
27:00
pane abuse, leading to multiple
27:02
arrests and numerous stints in rehab facilities.
27:05
Yeah, you know, even if Robert
27:07
Downey Juter, even if like I had a friend
27:11
and I found out they were using heroin, I would
27:14
feel a little bit of a responsibility to
27:16
try to get them, help them,
27:18
to help them as much as I can. I would
27:21
that that's a bummer, But a.
27:22
Lot of times that help really turns into enabling
27:25
in backfire. So like the kind of life that
27:27
you would need to give as a romantic partner,
27:29
it had to be I'm guessing
27:31
in some way enabling. And then just in
27:34
Susan her name is Susan. In Susan Downe's
27:37
case, it turned out positive,
27:40
right, luck.
27:41
Of the draw kind of thing exactly right, right
27:43
right, And listen, you know, we love a gambling
27:45
woman, we love a risk taking a woman. Goddamn
27:48
right, But why not it's just again, why not take
27:50
this risk on yourself? Like it was worth
27:52
that maybe of a risk for love. Maybe
27:54
she already maybe she
27:57
already risked her like took
27:59
risks on her during her whole life,
28:01
and she's really proud of her progress,
28:03
and she's like, well, this is nothing.
28:05
Maybe maybe I just mean they like the amount
28:07
of time and the thank you, like you can
28:09
tell you can tell from the
28:12
thank you how bad the crack cocaine used
28:14
was.
28:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. I got me.
28:17
Sure we could tell from Robert Downey's
28:19
juniors things.
28:20
You could believe he was alive. The crack use
28:22
was alarming. Yeah, yeah,
28:24
cracks alarming. Don't do it, kids,
28:27
And I'll say I I am.
28:30
I am a person here to tell you that it
28:33
is possible to be with a partner who
28:35
is in an active addiction and they themselves
28:38
without you saying a goddamn thing,
28:41
want to make their lives better and
28:44
enter sobriety, and you're there
28:46
for the ride, but you had nothing to do
28:48
with their decision to be sober. It's
28:50
amazing, But you also agree that was a gamble
28:52
for you to enter that in hoping that
28:55
he would stop. Uh huh right, yes, okay,
28:57
But I also I wasn't saying
29:00
much about it. I was
29:02
be I was kind of like distant from his
29:04
addiction because I knew that
29:06
I'm like it's not going to be potent in any
29:08
way. If I'm the one who, like
29:11
who pushes you to get there, it won't stick. You
29:14
have to do it, and you know, my
29:16
head, I'm like, well, we can't get to these certain milestones
29:18
if it's still like this, you know,
29:21
but you gotta kind of hope Hope.
29:24
Really, yeah, sometimes
29:26
hope works. It's my most destructive
29:29
addiction is hope. But
29:31
then when it works, you're like, oh, it's so good. You
29:33
don't know Hope like I do. Well,
29:36
it's just me and Hope. It's great. Hope's
29:38
my best friend. It's my fucking lover, she
29:40
said, spanks me and makes me walk around
29:42
in high heels and crawl on the floor. Damn,
29:45
Hope is so sexy. Hope.
29:47
You got it girl. So yeah,
29:49
glad, he's glad, he's sober. Yeah, I could
29:51
tell by that speech. Well one I already heard, like I
29:53
heard your monologue. I was watching it and it was killing
29:56
me because I really I was so happy for him, and I really, yeah,
29:58
I can't. This is first Oscar. Yeah it was. He
30:00
was been nominating before but he never won, And like you
30:02
could tell, I mean, there was a number when there was too many fucking
30:04
standing ovations that that Oscars last night. Yey were standing
30:06
for it. They just stood for good. They stood for Jimmy Kimmel.
30:09
I was like, laughable, this is laughable. I will
30:11
say the way that they presented like best Actress,
30:13
best supporting and stuff with they had like the previous
30:15
winners and said the most beautiful
30:18
that was really nice and copy that those actors
30:20
gave it was sincere. It was heartfelt,
30:22
beautifully performed themselves.
30:24
I hope so too. It felt like it because especially
30:27
the ones that had a personal connection with Yah.
30:29
Yeah, but that was such a beautiful touch.
30:31
I'm like, damn, I liked it too. To be honest,
30:33
I totally forgot, like when Kimmel was like, uh,
30:36
you know, we thought we this is the fifth fiftieth
30:38
anniversary of the Streaker, we thought
30:40
that was gonna be the most I totally forgot about the Will Smith
30:42
slop. I totally felt it left my until
30:45
I brought that up. I was like, oh my god,
30:47
yeah, I forgot about that and so and
30:50
because he was like, we thought this was gonna be the most memorable
30:52
Oscars moment until you know, I
30:54
was like, what was it? I forgot about
30:56
that too. I forgot about that too. Yeah,
30:59
wild that was the most talked about and I'm
31:01
like, this is never not gonna be talked about the slap herd
31:03
around the world and yeah, no, it's just we all.
31:05
It just goes to say like, no one's important, no
31:08
one's thinking about you. I wasn't thinking
31:10
about the Will Smith slap for a year.
31:12
Yeah that's crazy, that's true. We're
31:15
all busy with our own lives, guys. Damn
31:18
Okay, speaking
31:20
of damns,
31:28
We're so excited to be here
31:30
with Mark Groves. We were saying
31:32
before we before we started recording
31:35
that, uh, it's so nice to have a guest on
31:37
that we can actually use as a resource
31:39
for our own lives. Yeah, we just called you in because we
31:41
need help.
31:42
Yeah, you know what whatever, just
31:45
to be here, so excited to be in person.
31:47
But if we could, you know, do some intervention,
31:49
a please use
31:52
protection. Come
31:55
on, the bully
31:57
is an.
31:58
Effective uh yeah
32:00
yeah, then the fluid bonding is just
32:02
you know, that's the point. I'm not going to date. What's the point
32:04
for dating? But so
32:07
this is really great. So Karin was told, I don't
32:09
know if you want to go first Krin, but you I was thinking about
32:11
what you were telling me earlier about codependency.
32:13
Oh yeah, so I've been thinking about a lot about codependency.
32:15
I actually like put little homework assignments
32:18
for myself on my to do list for the week, and one
32:20
of them was, like you have this podcast,
32:22
Like, I know, people talk about codependency
32:24
all the time.
32:25
I seemingly know what it is.
32:26
I think it's just hard with my personality to really wrap
32:29
my mind around it. So when I saw that's one of
32:31
the main things we're speaking about in your new
32:33
book, like, I need some
32:35
Can you explain to me what is codependency
32:38
in Layman's terms, and
32:41
what does that look like and like and how
32:43
do people get themselves into codependent
32:46
relationships? It feels like such a foreign concept to
32:48
me that I that I really need someone.
32:50
To break it down. Starts with your mother, Karina.
32:52
I just yeah, I mean most stuff
32:54
does got a bad rap.
32:56
Yeah, some moms are bad.
32:57
That's very true.
33:01
Yeah, you can go hut time. My mouth was open, but
33:03
I was done.
33:07
Yeah, you know.
33:08
Codependency The term is
33:10
traditionally known in the addiction circles. So
33:12
based on alan On and the original
33:14
work in that space is by Melody B. D. It's a book
33:16
called Codependent No More Right. And so we know
33:19
codependency as this idea of
33:21
being the enabler. So the person who's
33:24
constantly like trying to shape shift help
33:26
someone save them. And so people
33:28
who are in relationship with addicts really need to
33:30
understand that because they're part of the
33:32
challenge.
33:33
And I often think about that, and.
33:35
You know, I'll get to like our definition
33:37
of codependency that we have in the book, But I often
33:39
think about, you know, when someone finally
33:41
gets sober, it's one because the people around
33:43
them say, I love you too much to let this happen
33:45
anymore, and I will no longer participate
33:48
in your addiction or whatever it is, your
33:51
toxic behavior. And but
33:53
when they get sober or stop doing the
33:56
thing they're doing, the person who's trying to change
33:58
them doesn't have a job anymore. So
34:00
part of what the person who's trying
34:03
to change people does, and this is dating
34:05
unavailable people. This is staying
34:07
in relationship dynamics that don't serve you, dating
34:09
someone who's ambivalent, doesn't know what they want.
34:12
These are all ways that we abandon
34:14
ourselves and what we truly desire, and if
34:16
we were to stop doing that, we stop
34:18
sourcing our worth from someone needing us
34:20
to help them change. So we
34:23
define it in the book as a relational dynamic
34:26
where we source safety from
34:28
something or someone at
34:31
the expense of ourselves and
34:33
our overall well being and
34:35
our safety. So
34:37
it's essentially like you're
34:40
not the main character in your story.
34:42
It's always about other people. Now.
34:44
On the other side, where we would think an attic normally
34:46
takes that role is actually someone
34:49
who generally has a challenge in the
34:51
psychological world. They might say that they're underfunctioning,
34:54
that they are not fully adulting, you
34:57
know what I mean. And they
34:59
might ident defight is broken, that there's
35:01
something wrong with them.
35:03
They really don't have a capacity to hold shame.
35:07
And usually you find these people together, you
35:09
find the person who's quote unquote more anxiously
35:11
attached with the person who's more avoidant.
35:14
So one is afraid that there's not
35:16
there's too much space between me.
35:18
And the other person.
35:19
Like when we think about attachment styles and
35:21
have you had someone come on and talk about it before.
35:23
We've talked about yeah, talked about it before.
35:25
I like to think of it instead of like I am
35:28
anxious or I am avoidant, or I am secure,
35:30
it's I'm prone to Because.
35:31
Yeah, that's good because then you're labeling that for yourself
35:34
for the rest of time because you kind of evolve.
35:36
It's called earned secure, So you learn how to become
35:38
secure, and it's your modeling behaviors of
35:40
what a secure person would do, and you become secure.
35:43
I mean, it sounds a lot easier than it is, but
35:45
the I think of it like it's your
35:47
relationship to space. So anxious people
35:49
don't like too much space. It means a
35:52
lack you're gonna leave me. I'm not safe, and
35:54
avoiding people need space,
35:56
so when there's not enough, they need space.
35:58
So think about these two people together.
36:00
And we've all seen two people start
36:02
dating that you're like, no, what
36:05
are you doing? And they just feed each other, right, Like, I've
36:07
witnessed relationships where I'm like, it's just
36:09
I don't want to be around you at a function
36:12
or any and I've certainly been in those relationships. I've
36:14
been that person and it's like you're just going to
36:16
back away until they figure out that that's not good.
36:19
That is such the healthy response
36:21
when someone is constantly distancing. I
36:23
always think like they can't move towards you if
36:26
you keep taking up the space, you know what I
36:28
mean.
36:28
Yeah, that's a good one. How do you feel safe
36:31
when you don't feel safe? That's
36:33
a big question.
36:34
Well, usually we're looking for the other
36:36
person to alter the relationship dynamics
36:39
so that safety becomes, you know something,
36:41
so safety being like am I safe to
36:43
self express? Am I safe to be myself? Am
36:45
I safe to be vulnerable? Am I safe
36:47
to have wounds? And ultimately
36:50
it's like we're seeking for someone else to finally
36:52
give us that, But it's really us who ask to give
36:54
it, right, Yeah, yeah, it's all just evidence
36:57
for our own you know, need
36:59
to heal and grow.
37:00
Have you felt unsafe in relationships past.
37:02
One hundred percent? Even in the book?
37:04
My wife and I in the
37:06
book we talk we talked about relationship one point
37:08
oh this sacred pause and relationship two point zero
37:11
and that's our first relationship. Then a breakup and then
37:13
we got back together, and that was not planned. I
37:15
did not expect to get back together and
37:17
really no.
37:20
Together what I was very carefully watching this.
37:22
I really love this, this story, I mean, great
37:25
for the book, but I know that's not why you did it.
37:27
You did Wow.
37:27
Yeah. I was like, this is like the Notebook
37:30
but better.
37:32
Yeah.
37:32
Relationship one point zero completely lacked
37:35
safety because my wife was
37:38
previously divorced, very dis
37:40
She was afraid to come fully into
37:42
the relationship and so she.
37:44
Had this dream.
37:46
And what how this came forward is I was
37:48
going for a run and I was like, man, I keep feeling like
37:50
I chase her and then and then I
37:52
come close to her, and then she runs again. So I got
37:54
back from the run and I was like, hey, you know,
37:56
this is what I'm noticing, and she was like,
37:59
yeah, you're right. I actually had this dream where
38:01
there was a house that was burning and it
38:03
was our relationship and the message I got
38:06
was.
38:06
You need to go.
38:07
Oh.
38:07
And this was about eight months into our relationship.
38:09
Broke up with you no, no, no,
38:11
but that she had been holding this
38:14
fear because she didn't want to go anywhere. She was
38:16
like, I finally met a guy who like thinks about
38:18
how I think, is open to growth, et cetera,
38:20
et cetera. And she was
38:22
like, what's wrong with me that I can't choose
38:25
this? I don't want to leave mm hmmm. And
38:27
so she and I spent so much
38:29
of our relational energy trying to figure out
38:31
how to fix this thing right.
38:33
So one she has to believe there's something wrong with
38:35
her that she can't choose this relationship. And
38:38
two I'm like, hey, like you're
38:40
not you might leave at any moment, Like
38:42
this dream still lives.
38:44
But the dream was just fear right, Yeah,
38:46
yeah, I mean like it manifesting because so many we
38:49
got a little too into woo woo stuff. And
38:51
on this podcast, if I get one more email
38:53
that's like I had a dream about this is
38:55
this So on my relationship, I'm going
38:57
to end it, okay, And I mean my own
39:00
life, I just can't. Like I just so,
39:02
I'm glad that you brought this up, because see,
39:04
you guys, sometimes a dream is just our fear
39:07
talking to us in our sleep.
39:08
He's the show's from
39:11
God. And a lot of times when you suppress
39:13
your fear, it makes all the sense in the world that it's going to be manifest
39:15
as a dream some metaphor. Yes, exactly.
39:18
So you felt unsafe in relationship one
39:20
point zero.
39:21
Yeah, because at any time, you know, now there's
39:23
this unconscious fear. She could go till it's
39:25
resolved and she's like, I choose this, that dream
39:28
is no longer relevant, right, But
39:30
it really was. We what shifted
39:33
towards the end of relationship. One point, oh is
39:35
we were like, hey, we've done
39:37
everything, Like we're two pretty
39:39
self aware people. Were
39:41
were deep in the work. We're seeing lots
39:43
of mentors and therapists, et cetera, just
39:46
trying to figure this out, like
39:48
we love each other. And I was like, what
39:50
happens if actually what
39:52
you're thinking you're broken is actually wisdom?
39:56
Oh, Like you're sensing a deeper relational
39:58
pattern here that needs to be
40:00
resolved, and so you're saying I gotta go. And
40:02
she talks about it. I love the way she expresses it. She's
40:05
like her body was like the somatic canarian.
40:07
The coal mine.
40:08
Mm hmmm.
40:09
And it it is so true because
40:11
by then seeing that what was coming up
40:13
for her was actually
40:16
wisdom, we could act upon that,
40:19
we ended the relationship. Oh yeah,
40:21
and that was It was
40:23
so beautiful because now instead
40:26
of me being like, it's okay to be in a relationship
40:28
with someone who might go, I was like, no.
40:30
Right, right, that's the that's an act
40:32
of safety. Right.
40:33
Really, I couldn't feel safe because I didn't
40:35
trust myself. It looked like she wasn't choosing
40:38
me, but I was leaving myself in circumstances
40:41
with.
40:41
An ambibiuent person. So like, how
40:43
could I not have anxiety gut stuff?
40:46
Right?
40:46
Like it's I'm thinking it's her and
40:48
then I get to make it her.
40:49
Yeah, it's so in relationships, it's
40:52
we're so quick to think
40:54
that the other person is the one who needs to change,
40:56
right when we're the ones who needs to change.
40:58
And by a lot of times that change means leave the relationship
41:01
right and and change how we orient to
41:03
someone not changing. Yeah, right, Like that's
41:05
the big shift. It can be a massive
41:07
shift when as you're saying, oh,
41:09
it's what's my side of the street. Like every
41:12
relational dynamic we're in, we're in.
41:15
We are the common denominator in all our
41:17
relationship outcomes.
41:18
Yeah, and even if the other person does need to change, you cannot.
41:21
That's work they have to do on their own time. It's only like I'm
41:23
like, you have control of your own actions to work
41:25
on that. People are so obsessed
41:28
with other people's or their friend's friends. Like there's
41:30
so many people who write in and they're like, my
41:32
friend is in this relationship.
41:34
I go, you have too much. You have too much
41:36
time on your right unless they're in
41:38
imminent danger, right, you
41:41
probably have some stuff to work on that you can grate
41:43
on. Yeah, it's so much easier to have your intenn's pointed
41:46
out word than then word.
41:47
Well, isn't that again, Like you're you're
41:49
putting your attention and your life force into
41:51
trying to resolve other people's conflict. Sure,
41:53
there's more codependency, it's like stay
41:55
in your lane.
41:57
Do you think how much codependency do you think is
42:00
from a person's subconscious desire
42:03
to fix their own dynamic with a parent?
42:06
Because that fuel you're
42:08
blind, like you have that fuel, it
42:11
gives you such tunnel vision that all you
42:13
like because I've experienced that. I've been on
42:15
the rocket of that and it's like nothing
42:17
else exists except this goal. It's
42:19
wild, never focused on something so much in
42:22
my life, very unhealthy.
42:24
Well, it makes sense because you think it's the unresolved
42:27
need of the child. So
42:30
the we usually orient
42:32
a relationship from the place of needing to resolve
42:34
that unconsciously. So the relationships,
42:36
as you know, we draw into our lives are
42:38
usually re wounding us in a way that
42:40
is familiar, and usually
42:43
with a parent, and usually
42:45
the parent that we sort of experience the most challenged
42:47
with. I'd say it's it's unfortunately
42:50
usually our mother, because that's where we learn
42:52
secure, attachment, attainment, all the
42:55
things. So you know, it's
42:57
I would say almost all
43:00
codependency is rooted in our childhood
43:02
dynamic, but I'd say culture moves in there.
43:04
You also look at what do movies tell us.
43:06
The stories are like, be a
43:08
woman sitting in the top of a building who
43:11
needs to be saved, like the top of a castle.
43:13
And then the man needs to be the one who goes and fixes
43:15
it.
43:15
And movies fuck me up. Everyone's talking about child
43:18
to trauma. Go that's movies for me, one hundred
43:20
percent, not parent stuff. It's more like movies
43:22
also presented a much more exciting
43:25
existence because in a movie,
43:27
it doesn't show you. You're not looking at
43:29
the mundane parts of life. You're only
43:31
seeing the It's a highlights reel, right, It's
43:34
like Instagram before Instagram existed.
43:36
So I'm like, oh, you guys want to talk
43:38
about trauma, Let's talk about how exciting
43:40
and thrilling movies are. I Mean, a
43:43
big question that I ask like all the time on this
43:45
podcast is like do I even have a soulmate?
43:47
Because like we're sold this idea that like everyone
43:50
does and then you go, all right, well it's been like thirty
43:52
eight years, Like what's happening here?
43:54
You know, It's like it feels like
43:56
something that you're old, the same way I feel about
43:58
tits, Like I didn't get those either. You
44:01
know, there's like a long list of things that I was like,
44:03
why really I deserve a refund?
44:06
Well, the the idea that we
44:08
have a soulmate, I think it's just so
44:10
limiting, you know. I know people who are in some
44:13
toxic relational dynamics
44:15
that the yeah, and they'll say there's
44:17
this one I can think of where they're like, he's
44:20
my twin flame.
44:22
Flame red flag.
44:25
Well, and to me, it's like, soulmate
44:28
doesn't mean because I think
44:30
we have many. I think that's just a much easier they
44:32
could be. It could be a dog, it could be a person, right,
44:35
and and they're really people
44:37
who wake us up to our patterns, you
44:39
know. But yeah, to think that your soulmate
44:41
you have to work it out with that
44:44
is the illusion. Maybe the lesson from the soulmate
44:46
is that you actually need to choose yourself and
44:48
not you know, and then you put yourself on
44:50
the path to somebody who's
44:53
who You're not trying to resolve childhood
44:55
stuff with anymore, you know, And that we
44:58
usually orient to our relationships from place
45:00
of wounding, seeking them to be healed, and
45:02
we do that in our life. Like, think about what brings
45:04
us to personal growth. It's usually
45:07
the idea that something wrong with us. Yeah,
45:10
but at some point in our life we can't
45:12
orient to the world from that place anymore.
45:14
It has to be there's something right with me.
45:16
These challenges that I'm having are
45:18
no longer evidence of my lack of or
45:20
my inadequacy.
45:22
They're actually evidence that I'm learning.
45:24
Oh, I like that reframe. It's all about reframing
45:27
you something. And it's like, there
45:29
was this quote the other day from this author that
45:31
I'm reading, and he said anger
45:34
is the ego substitute for courage,
45:36
and I'm like, God damn, that
45:38
makes me actually not want to have road rage
45:42
because I have that road rage and I'm like, now I do
45:44
not want to indulge in that
45:47
getting off on the anger thing. Because
45:49
it's just like thinking of it as a substitute for
45:51
courage. So that's so. Yeah, the reframing
45:54
is huge. I imagine there was a lot of reframing when you got
45:56
back together with your now wife.
45:58
Yeah.
45:58
How long was the break?
46:00
Ten months?
46:00
Okay?
46:01
Ten months?
46:02
Did you talk a lot?
46:03
No?
46:03
No, no time, especially right
46:05
away. I was like, no communication
46:08
for three months, and then we
46:10
came back together, had dinner, and
46:12
then we were like no, not aligned. Yeah,
46:14
and then yeah, we came back
46:16
again. And so it broke
46:19
up into September, and I think it was April or
46:21
something like that May the following
46:24
year that we actually were like
46:26
okay. She actually sent me
46:28
a message and was like, I'd like to chat and
46:30
like catch up, and you know, I'm interested
46:33
in sharing with you some of the things I've
46:35
learned. And we had a coffee and she was like, I'm
46:37
ready to choose this. Oh,
46:40
I'm ready to have kids, I'm ready to do those
46:42
things. Oh wow with you, But
46:45
I'm not ready to just jump into that
46:47
as a commitment.
46:48
I'd like to explore that with you.
46:50
I'd like.
46:50
So we created what we called a dating container.
46:53
It was like and you know, in Stan Tacken's
46:55
work. He's a famous psychotherapist. He
46:57
talks about how the reason that relatesh
47:00
ships end is because they fail to create
47:02
clear agreements at the start. Yeah,
47:04
so our container was just very clear agreements,
47:06
like we we weren't seeing
47:08
other people, we were going to check in
47:11
all the time.
47:12
Everybody's always so scared to ask, Like, so we can
47:14
be monogamous like until it gets
47:17
too late. Yeah.
47:18
Right.
47:18
You can't create emotional safety
47:22
if you're directing your relational
47:24
energy into a person who is directing
47:26
it into multiple people.
47:28
It's impossible.
47:29
And see, I'm glad you said that because these
47:31
people who are starting open like the starting
47:34
what like a primary relationship, but keeping
47:37
it open at the start, I just think
47:39
it is a real big mistake.
47:41
Yeah, Like I respect everyone's
47:43
relational choice. I just I just think
47:45
either.
47:46
I just think, but I'm happy
47:48
that you do. That's that's why that you're in the studio
47:50
with us.
47:51
Yeah, I don't want to.
47:53
I do think that polyamory
47:55
is often the changing
47:58
of a relational dynamic that we probably
48:00
want to end or don't know how to do the work
48:02
within. And that's not always true, but I think that's often
48:05
true. It's like we're creating safety nets,
48:07
yeah, that are protecting us from
48:09
really going deeper with one person.
48:11
It's like it to me, like polyamory
48:13
to me is like a lot of a lot of people. Also is
48:16
my issue is like that they're calling something polyamory
48:19
that is not they're They're just
48:21
calling the ability to constantly
48:23
fuck around pomory and memory
48:26
is extremely complex. And I know
48:28
maybe one person who I really feel to be polyamorous.
48:30
And this is a person who has, like in a
48:33
beautiful way, devoted their life to love.
48:35
Nothing I want a part of. But like, goddamn,
48:37
does this person spend a lot of time
48:39
on relationships and love and caring
48:42
for the people in their life?
48:43
I mean you have to when you have a lot of relationships. How
48:45
do people have our time? I have one wife?
48:47
Yeah, I can imagine having a bun yeah yeah,
48:49
yeah, yeah, that's wild. Yeah.
48:57
What other agreements were in your dating container?
48:59
Yeah?
48:59
So I was just reading the audible
49:01
for our book and I laughed
49:04
because one of the agreements was not
49:06
to have penetrative sex. So I
49:08
had to say penetrative of penetrative
49:10
yeah, And I was like, I feel like the mark, I
49:13
feel like I'm like in health classes or
49:15
something so clinical. It really felt
49:18
I always laugh whenever I say it. But so we didn't
49:20
have sex, But did you get a finger
49:22
in?
49:23
Yeah?
49:23
We did all that. It was actually really fun.
49:27
Were you doing insertions? Okay? Months
49:29
fun to put a little like because then
49:31
people just jump in physically like people
49:33
just jump in right away, and it's like, man, you really miss
49:36
that out on the making out, on the grabbing, the
49:38
boobs, over the shirt, the fingering,
49:40
you know, all that fun stuff. A
49:43
good hand job, Yeah, you know what
49:45
is a good hand job?
49:46
Mark, I think it's a two hand job really
49:50
more attention.
49:51
Really, yeah, I feel like my
49:53
I like doing it with one. The rhythm
49:55
is hard with two interesting, okay.
49:58
Yeah yeah, it's like your stomach and
50:01
you know yeah yeah.
50:03
That was another agreement.
50:04
Which I really resisted that one
50:07
at first. No
50:09
penetrative act. It's a beautiful
50:12
I've match practice. The audible
50:14
person's like, what penetrative?
50:19
Yeah, because
50:22
I'm more like what we would think of as
50:24
the woman in the relationship. As soon as I have a connection
50:26
with someone, I'm like marriage the brain and
50:30
girlfriend. That's that not like
50:32
no joke for sure, And what
50:35
I found that did for me was
50:38
the container made it so.
50:40
The relationship could not accelerate.
50:43
So even if I was like, you know, a month
50:45
and oh we're doing good, like we're labeling like we're
50:47
good now, and it was like, that's not
50:49
part of the agreement. And what I noticed
50:52
was that I wasn't ready to call
50:54
it a yes yet, but I wanted it to
50:56
be a yes, so I felt more secure.
50:59
Does that make sense?
50:59
Yes?
51:00
And that was part of the me being with someone who couldn't
51:03
fully choose the relationship was that I
51:05
had already bypassed the sense
51:07
that why would you ever put yourself in a relationship
51:09
with someone who can't fully choose it. That makes no sense, but
51:12
it means that somewhere when I was young,
51:14
I learned that it was okay
51:16
to not feel fully chosen and that became just
51:19
normal. So my nervous system
51:21
not knowing where I fit was actually
51:23
familiar. And what that three month
51:25
container and also our breakup did for me was
51:28
recognize what a no is. And
51:31
I was working with this client recently and
51:34
I was talking to her. She had like a lot of guys who
51:36
were her friend who wanted more, and then she was
51:38
friends with guys she wanted more from.
51:40
And I said, like, isn't this interesting that the
51:42
thing you're doing to these men who want
51:44
more and you know and then you like source stuff
51:47
from them, you're also in the same
51:49
circumstance with someone else. And
51:51
I said, so till you can
51:53
actually get very clear on what a no is in your
51:55
life, You're yes, actually isn't a
51:57
real yes, right, you know, because
52:00
your yes still comes with small print. It's
52:02
like, I'm yes on the condition. So
52:05
if I can't say this is definitely not a
52:07
fit for you, but if it's not a
52:09
fit for you, it's not a fit for me.
52:10
Yeah.
52:11
So, like our other agreement, coming back
52:13
together was a fierce dedication to the
52:15
truth, the truth ahead of anything.
52:17
This working out This not because
52:19
we realized through working with thousands
52:21
of people and just all the experiences we'd
52:24
had personally, was that the
52:27
truth is ultimately what deepens trust
52:29
and intimacy. We grow up in families
52:31
where the family create, everyone has a
52:33
role, where we don't talk about dad's alcoholism
52:36
or mom's narcissism or whatever it is, right
52:38
right and so and so we're
52:41
like bringing pad.
52:42
The lies in all of your other relationships
52:44
going forward? Right, Why don't nothing to see
52:46
here?
52:47
That's why I'm like, fuck that, Yeah, Like I
52:49
don't want relationships like that.
52:51
Can you recall the truth? Can you recall something
52:54
that either you said to her or she said to you that you were like,
52:56
ooh, okay, that's the truth. Yep,
52:59
I'm gonna have to take a break and cry real quick.
53:02
I mean a few One that comes to mind
53:04
was in our previous
53:06
relationship, and then one when we got back together.
53:08
One in our previous relationship was
53:12
she was coming. So this was like as
53:14
we were about to meet
53:16
again. She was not living in Vancouver
53:18
at the time, and I said, well, you
53:21
know what, I'll pay for your flight, like
53:23
come visit. And as
53:25
soon as I said it, this
53:28
was wild. I could hear this voice inside
53:30
me that was like, if you pay for her flight, you've
53:33
got her. And
53:35
I didn't notice that really, like I
53:37
noticed it, but I was like, nah, whatever. And
53:39
then when she came to Vancouver. I
53:42
don't think I ended up paying for her flight. But when she
53:44
came to Vancouver, she was like that didn't
53:46
feel clean, and I was like,
53:48
what do you mean, And she's like, I'm just wondering what's
53:51
wrong with me that I couldn't receive your
53:53
generosity to pay for the
53:55
flight?
53:55
Oh okay, that's an interesting way to say that.
53:57
And I said, actually,
54:01
I feel a lot of shame saying this,
54:03
but I think what you were onto is that
54:05
I had this like unconscious
54:08
sense that if I paid for it, I
54:10
had power.
54:11
Over you manipulated.
54:13
And then I was like, so
54:15
so when I shared with her that, she started crying
54:17
because she immediately thought there
54:20
was something wrong with her that she couldn't receive my generosity,
54:22
right.
54:23
Jeez, and you were you were having a whole other dynamic.
54:25
I was going on to manipulate and
54:28
her body, which I think women,
54:30
but I think people, but especially women have
54:33
been taught to bypass that sense
54:35
and then think because think about it, ends I've done
54:37
a.
54:37
Lot because there's like statistics of like
54:39
when people don't women don't follow their gut
54:42
because out of basically.
54:43
Politeness A lot of time, like walking
54:45
on the other side of the street when they feel safe, when someone's
54:47
on the like following them or something, they end up literally
54:50
dead.
54:51
Right, And you think, I wonder how they do that. Research
54:54
did you or did you not follow your guys?
54:56
The street and you just did it, mam ma'am below.
55:00
Yeah, she's choice, she
55:02
attacked.
55:02
Yeah. Yeah.
55:03
The with What
55:06
I found interesting about that was that even
55:09
you know, call it the patriarchal sort of training,
55:11
that I'm fine and I was just being
55:13
generous. And so we in our book
55:15
go through these what we call codependent
55:18
hooks and their unconscious ways
55:20
that we hook into people's energy
55:23
so that we can keep them close.
55:24
Oh yeah, probably that.
55:26
Yeah, you know, I started to realize how much I did
55:28
it, and that so I had to really I
55:31
had to be with the shame that I had been
55:33
doing this my whole life, using charm,
55:36
using you know, humor,
55:38
using everything to like try to bring
55:41
someone close, intuiting their
55:43
needs yea, you know, but leaving
55:45
my own center. Like if I have to pay for someone
55:47
to keep someone close, that's not security,
55:50
right right, right right, It's
55:52
meeting a need, yes exactly.
55:54
But think about relational dynamics.
55:56
They are fueled by that power dynamic.
55:58
Oh my god, the cat and schame of just
56:00
even like getting together in the first place, and the attraction.
56:03
It's like, don't call them back right away,
56:05
don't text her immediately after the you know, and it's
56:07
like, Okay, I mean just the dance is kind
56:09
of fun, but then when the game playing
56:12
extends into what are we it's like this
56:14
is not enjoyable.
56:15
Right, right?
56:16
And it's crazy to me that we're so worried
56:18
about asking someone if you know, let's
56:20
say we want to not see other people
56:22
because you can sense that you want to invest more and
56:24
you want more safety emotionally, that
56:27
we're actually afraid to have that conversation because
56:29
it might push our soulmate away.
56:31
But if they're their soul mat away
56:34
and it'll filter.
56:34
Them, right, you want to filter out the
56:36
people who.
56:37
Don't want it, right.
56:38
It's such a mind fuck.
56:39
Well, there's this thing with romantic relationships,
56:42
especially if you've had any sort of like trauma
56:44
of any kind in childhood, which most people have, where
56:46
it's like, man, if I lose this, I'll never get
56:48
this feeling again. And that
56:50
is a really big selling point to
56:53
cling.
56:54
It really is.
56:55
And I always think, like the
56:57
the universe God, your experience doesn't matter.
56:59
Whatever words you use will remove
57:02
people from your life who you
57:04
place your value in having. Sure absolutely
57:06
to remind you that your value doesn't live in
57:09
having them. So if you're if you lose
57:11
your relationship and your sense of self
57:13
is in your relationship status, which I think as
57:15
a culture we celebrate that. Oh
57:17
yes, basically because if you're single,
57:20
people go like, oh, why are you still single? Like
57:22
you have an ailment.
57:23
Oh.
57:23
I was literally just talking about those a couple of months ago because
57:25
I was like, I actually like fucking hate having a boyfriend,
57:28
and anytime I had one, it was just like a strategic
57:30
move to like have my like
57:32
like to peer to others like as
57:35
it's like, oh, I have everything, so stop asking
57:37
me about it.
57:38
I'm like, I don't like having it. So even if
57:40
that appears lower value or like.
57:42
Losing to you, I'm winning because I don't
57:44
want to have a boyfriend because it sucks.
57:47
Like having one, because it is a sense
57:49
of going validation.
57:52
Just having one in general. Period hard
57:54
stop. But yeah, do you think having
57:56
a boyfriend suck?
57:57
Yeah?
57:58
I mean most because the boyfriends suck.
58:00
I it's there's
58:03
just I don't I guess I need to create
58:06
some things that maybe I need. That's
58:08
what it always seems like. I don't.
58:10
There's nothing I really need. So then you
58:12
know the boyfriend's there and he's like what's my job?
58:14
And I'm like, just be cool and hang out
58:17
and eat snacks, and they seem to want
58:19
like more of a job, you know, And
58:21
so then I just have someone in my space who's annoying
58:24
me.
58:25
Well, you know, the idea that you need to have
58:27
a need for them to be in your life,
58:29
right is again, like that's what.
58:31
I'm trying to tell them. I go, you don't. You don't.
58:33
There's not a job. This is like a
58:35
luxury. It's a relationship.
58:37
Should be a cherry on to an already great life.
58:40
You've agreed because.
58:42
Yourself, I don't. I certainly don't want another
58:44
job, Like I don't want girlfriends to feel like an occupation.
58:47
I have an occupation, right it comed Yeah,
58:50
I don't need enough. I don't need a second one.
58:52
Well, I think when when we
58:54
say that to someone, especially for a
58:57
man who doesn't feel like they have a place,
58:59
because I think there's a that idea
59:01
of I don't need a man, which you know,
59:03
I think is really sourced from the pain of
59:05
the real.
59:07
Of men sucking. No.
59:10
But truthfully, like the relational dynamics
59:12
that were abusive, that were financially
59:14
abusive, we you know, I'm forty five.
59:16
So I look up my I look at society
59:19
when I grew up, and that was really when divorce
59:21
really increased, especially in nineteen eighty
59:23
six in the US, because that's when separation
59:26
went from three years to one year. So all
59:28
of a sudden, there was this huge wave of women
59:31
especially who were like, well, three
59:33
years is a lot to be separated before a divorce.
59:35
I could do one year. So divorce
59:38
actually skyrocketed in eighty six. It originally
59:40
skyrocketed with I mean, you had this
59:42
sexual revolution, you had the feminist revolution,
59:44
so you had all these movements at the exact
59:46
same time that the Divorce Act went in, and
59:48
that was the first wave, but then this
59:51
was the second wave. And so I think, what we're
59:54
we're healing is this residue from
59:56
relational dynamics that especially occurred in our
59:58
own parents and maybe for some younger
1:00:00
people now today their grandparents, where
1:00:03
the woman did not have autonomy sovereignty.
1:00:06
Because if you think about it.
1:00:07
If you're if you
1:00:09
depend on your relationship for
1:00:11
financial security,
1:00:14
that means you depend on your relationship
1:00:16
for your safety. So that means
1:00:18
if you are to rock the boat, you
1:00:21
rock.
1:00:22
Your survival form
1:00:25
feels a childhood part two, you
1:00:27
know, because it's like the same You're like, this is just
1:00:29
the same dynamic that you know you have when
1:00:31
you're a.
1:00:32
Child, right, And
1:00:34
so it's like, how as because
1:00:37
that power dynamic can exist, right, Like, let's
1:00:39
say I was dating a woman who was the breadwinner.
1:00:42
The power dynamic will exist if she's paying
1:00:45
more things. So we're not saying that's
1:00:47
wrong. But in the book, what we say
1:00:49
is bring forward what
1:00:52
are the implicit contracts
1:00:54
of power dynamic so that
1:00:56
we can if I'm paying, if she's
1:00:58
paying, how does that make me feel?
1:01:01
What does that make me?
1:01:02
Not talk about because you
1:01:04
know, Harriet Lerner talks about this like she's
1:01:07
the best.
1:01:08
And she was saying that because
1:01:11
I said to her, why do more women?
1:01:13
I got eighty five percent of my following as women, And
1:01:16
I was like, why do more.
1:01:17
Women consume relational content?
1:01:18
And she said, because the subordinate
1:01:21
group always needs to learn the needs
1:01:23
and nuances of the dominant group
1:01:25
for survival, So like women
1:01:27
need to learn how to be emotional ninjas
1:01:29
so they don't die. And I was like,
1:01:32
wow, that's really interesting. And
1:01:35
so we think about like what you were saying
1:01:37
about not wanting a boyfriend
1:01:39
who's a project like where they need
1:01:41
to have something to do, And I think about
1:01:43
how for a lot of men, our
1:01:46
value is in the doing. It's in like providing,
1:01:49
oh for sure. So it's like, if I'm not providing
1:01:51
money or rent
1:01:54
or food or whatever it is, how
1:01:57
else can I be
1:01:59
needed? And what we equate
1:02:02
the rebellion from these self
1:02:04
abandoning relationships where women didn't have voices,
1:02:07
and that could be true of other dynamics. It's
1:02:09
like the response is usually
1:02:11
I don't need anybody, right, And
1:02:13
we're saying it's actually super healthy
1:02:16
to be needed and need. It's just that
1:02:18
we don't trust when we
1:02:20
need someone because it's like when someone's afraid
1:02:22
of commitment, I would say, you're not afraid of
1:02:24
commitment, you're afraid of what commitment
1:02:27
leads to.
1:02:27
You already have a story. You don't trust yourself,
1:02:29
you don't trust others.
1:02:31
So it's like, what we really want
1:02:33
to look at is one type of what
1:02:35
type of people are we drawing into our lives,
1:02:38
and can we actually
1:02:40
offer vulnerabilities and needs that
1:02:43
they could attend to that are
1:02:45
not financially based, that are not a problem,
1:02:48
like you're not fixing something, but
1:02:50
you're actually, you know, maybe rubbing
1:02:52
my.
1:02:52
Feet or like just being there for the person,
1:02:55
right and checking in.
1:02:56
And like my wife, she whenever she
1:02:58
opens a jar, she's like, oh,
1:03:01
can you open this? And I'm like, I
1:03:03
know she can open jars, but I'm
1:03:05
in charge of her access to peanut butter. That
1:03:08
is, I'll take it, right.
1:03:10
See, I was actually gonna bring up something very similar because
1:03:12
like a lot of women's actual like have have recommended
1:03:15
me, like my female friends have like basically recommended
1:03:17
like creating jobs that I
1:03:19
can do myself to make
1:03:21
the men in my life feel needed.
1:03:24
And while I
1:03:26
I'm not going to cause play like it's
1:03:30
ridiculous to
1:03:32
me that says the man's self worse's
1:03:35
wrapped up in providing providing
1:03:38
a thing, of course.
1:03:39
And then and then the next part of this
1:03:41
thought, which I think is just maybe what you're saying
1:03:43
is, well, then it's just more placating
1:03:46
to men, right. So imagine
1:03:48
if instead of that we oriented
1:03:50
to it from actually
1:03:53
not trying to carry everything ourselves, right,
1:03:56
Because the opposite.
1:03:57
Of a dependent is an
1:04:00
independent.
1:04:00
And so yeah, I mean you see this politically too, It's
1:04:02
like collectivism versus individuated.
1:04:05
It's like relationships either we
1:04:07
either abandon relationship
1:04:09
for ourselves or abandon ourselves for a relationship.
1:04:12
And I'm saying, how do you be a self and
1:04:15
be with another? And where
1:04:17
the intention not cause playing
1:04:19
because I agree with you, like not pretending
1:04:22
I have I need to be saved in.
1:04:23
A castle now it's so fake, it's bullshit.
1:04:25
So instead it's like, what are things that I
1:04:27
carry that I actually am so used
1:04:29
to carrying on my own that
1:04:32
I can now trust
1:04:34
someone else to support me with which
1:04:36
I'm guilty of this. I'm the like I got everything
1:04:39
and then I'm like, oh, like buried.
1:04:43
Talk to me.
1:04:43
I'm busy, and you're like, Jesus Christ, that's
1:04:46
it.
1:04:47
And that's I mean, that's self abandonment, that's codependency,
1:04:50
that's it.
1:04:50
It's like, I'm going to do everything, so.
1:04:52
How do you like? I know, one of the things I was super
1:04:54
codependent, and I'm in a relationship now that started
1:04:57
off super like toxic dynamic
1:04:59
because I was going after somebody who was like no,
1:05:02
I'm like but yeah, and
1:05:04
then we are in a really healthy, loving,
1:05:06
beautiful relationship. And one of the things that I with
1:05:08
trick that I used was like, if this relationship
1:05:11
ends, it's okay, You'll be fine,
1:05:13
You'll be the same person you were, and like just
1:05:16
reminding myself of that because I think back to my
1:05:18
previous relationships and it was this thing
1:05:20
of like what will I do if this
1:05:22
if this world that we've built in, the
1:05:24
safety nest that I've built in this relationship
1:05:27
goes away, Like I'll die and
1:05:29
it's like oof. So just reminding yourself being
1:05:31
comfortable with uncomfortable, you know, uncomfortable
1:05:33
outcomes.
1:05:34
I think that's essential. It's like you're
1:05:36
still a self regardless of your relationship.
1:05:39
Step.
1:05:39
Yeah, And that was the same for me, you know, formally
1:05:41
in breakups, I was like, you know, I
1:05:44
would ruminate and be like, oh my god, I
1:05:46
miss I need them back. But
1:05:48
it was it wasn't that. It was that I needed
1:05:51
to finally stand on my own two feet and build
1:05:53
a life that was truly about cultivating
1:05:55
the most powerful version of me, you
1:06:03
know, the most stepping into my fullest purpose,
1:06:05
my potential, and not sourcing
1:06:07
that from my relationship. I think for a lot of
1:06:09
us, our relationships become our lives
1:06:11
and then we lose them and we lose everything.
1:06:14
Well, it's you know, it's so tricky
1:06:17
when you get in, when you enter, when you fall in love with
1:06:19
somebody, the chemicals that happen
1:06:21
in your body, The sky
1:06:23
is bluer, the birds are chirping
1:06:25
louder every even if you're having a bad
1:06:27
day. You don't give a fuck, and like that, that
1:06:30
way of living and that kind of feeling. It's
1:06:32
like, who wouldn't want that? All right
1:06:35
the time?
1:06:35
And there's drugs trying to get that.
1:06:37
Yeah, and when and when it feels like it's being compromised
1:06:39
or maybe it's not leading, and you're like, whoa, what the fuck?
1:06:41
And we act like heroin addicts, it's
1:06:43
like, that's that's tricky. The feelings
1:06:46
that happen when you first start a relationship
1:06:48
or not misleading, but
1:06:51
they make it difficult.
1:06:52
Yeah. I remember it was Ramdas who said that
1:06:54
we get lost in the idea of
1:06:57
the object of love, like we confuse
1:06:59
falling in life with being in love, and
1:07:02
huh, yeah, I really love it when I heard that,
1:07:04
because it just reminded me so many times I've been
1:07:07
in the honeymoon phase. And what
1:07:09
I love what rom DAWs talked about is that the
1:07:12
experience let's say it's meditation or drugs
1:07:15
or LSD or mushrooms or love. We
1:07:17
think that that experience is
1:07:20
only accessed through that, right,
1:07:23
But he's saying what it does is
1:07:25
it reminds you that it lives within you.
1:07:27
So what feeling is in your body exactly?
1:07:29
So you think the object is what
1:07:31
provides you love. Like I remember working with this
1:07:34
woman is like I'm just more funny when I'm
1:07:36
in relationships, and I was like,
1:07:38
well.
1:07:38
You have that funny in you, girl, exactly.
1:07:41
But what they just wake up with you is a type
1:07:43
of joy and access to play,
1:07:46
right, And it's like.
1:07:48
In your house to like, different people
1:07:50
bring out different sides. I think this goes for
1:07:52
for everybody, Like different people bring out different sides
1:07:54
of you, right, and like a romantic partner. But
1:07:57
it's like, how do you bring out that side? Like
1:07:59
some people I'm really attracted to hanging
1:08:01
out with because I like who I am around them, which
1:08:03
is a little selfish, but hopefully they like who
1:08:05
they are around me and we
1:08:07
can both be selfish about it. But how do you bring
1:08:10
that side of yourself out by
1:08:12
yourself? Man?
1:08:15
A mystery?
1:08:16
I was like, that's so funny because like, for me, relationship
1:08:19
brings out my bitch
1:08:21
monster. So I'm like, as long
1:08:23
as I'm not in a relationship, I'm great.
1:08:25
Like I'm the best I've ever been.
1:08:27
Now. I haven't had sex and months, haven't drank, didn't
1:08:30
do anything really fun, nothing's
1:08:32
really going well, you know truly,
1:08:35
but I feel great like this like
1:08:37
birds and chirping thing that we're talking about,
1:08:39
Like, I feel that now.
1:08:40
Because you're acting authentic, yeah, to
1:08:43
who you are just hanging out? Well, I mean I
1:08:45
can kind of always doing that, but sometimes I.
1:08:46
Do things that like I just sometimes it's just
1:08:48
like, really I just need less.
1:08:50
People in my life. Well,
1:08:52
you know, sometimes I found for me too. It's
1:08:54
like, as you were saying, you're around
1:08:56
some people who bring you alive. Yeah,
1:08:58
you know, and I really In
1:09:00
the book, we talk about creating a container
1:09:03
for yourself.
1:09:04
Which is how do you do that?
1:09:05
Yeah? Where you actually do not You actually
1:09:08
go into an intentional space, you know, much
1:09:10
like a cocoon where you're like the intention
1:09:12
of this is to get to know myself. Like you think
1:09:14
about what you're talking about. If we're
1:09:17
living from the neck up, we're not in
1:09:19
contact with what our body is telling
1:09:21
us, maybe because we had to disassociate and
1:09:24
learn to do that as a kid. So the container,
1:09:26
what we're talking about, is really thawing out the nervous
1:09:28
system where colors are
1:09:30
brighter and birds are louder. And
1:09:34
what you do what I usually recommend
1:09:36
to people, which I think is it's funny how people
1:09:38
respond to it. But you say, like,
1:09:41
no engagement at all
1:09:43
with whatever sex you're attracted
1:09:45
to, so you actually there's
1:09:48
no sexting, no texting, no
1:09:50
nothing, and you do that for three
1:09:52
months and usually
1:09:55
people are.
1:09:55
Like right, right,
1:09:57
even a male friend.
1:09:59
If you're sourcing from them, yes, oh okay.
1:10:01
So if you know that, you're like you get
1:10:04
a buzz, like you get affirmation of your
1:10:06
hotness, of your so I can talk to my brother,
1:10:08
you can talk to your brother anyone.
1:10:11
Dog my dog, Yeah
1:10:13
I have an ill dog. Yeah, okay, I
1:10:15
have to give them away from only
1:10:17
a you sour from.
1:10:20
Dogs?
1:10:20
Are
1:10:20
they're
1:10:24
so good for your nervous system? Yeah?
1:10:27
For regulation? Yeah, but yeah, the container.
1:10:29
I was working with this woman where she was like, three months
1:10:31
sounds good, and then as it was coming she.
1:10:33
Was like, I could do a month.
1:10:34
Yeah, And I'm like, you're negotiating
1:10:36
with what's possible for you, Like you're
1:10:39
already saying I can't do that,
1:10:41
but you can, and it's actually true you
1:10:44
can't.
1:10:44
I mean, I'm giddy at she's just touching all my
1:10:46
male friends being like sorry, I can't talk
1:10:49
for three months. Like that sounds.
1:10:51
Great, sounds like you're really in the cocoon.
1:10:54
That sounds sick.
1:10:55
Well, because there men, men drain
1:10:57
me in a way that women don't. You know, It's
1:10:59
like there's a lot of more reciprocity and female
1:11:02
friendships. My best friend is as
1:11:04
a man, he's gay, but there's reciprocity
1:11:07
there, so that's no problem.
1:11:09
Yeah, I think when any relationship lacks
1:11:11
reciprocity, yeah, for sure.
1:11:13
And of course it's like we have to say
1:11:16
no, we have to request that the relationship
1:11:18
becomes balanced yeah or no
1:11:20
yes, And so it's like, of course, what
1:11:22
a great model of like why
1:11:25
would we invest in things that don't invest
1:11:27
in us?
1:11:28
Right?
1:11:28
But if we're so used to being the one who does
1:11:31
all that maintain Like I think about
1:11:33
the people that if you never texted them, they'd never
1:11:35
text you, right, or like that's.
1:11:37
Me, I would never text anyone. No one would ever hear.
1:11:40
I'm guilty of that.
1:11:41
You probably get a lot of messages I hear people
1:11:44
who are creators.
1:11:45
Which there's such a poll.
1:11:46
Yeah, Like, I just don't reach out like I always
1:11:49
respond though, Yeah.
1:11:50
You do, see I always respond.
1:11:52
I don't respond.
1:11:54
I'm a bad Well, actually I'm not a bad texture.
1:11:56
I just don't like texting.
1:11:57
I don't either.
1:11:58
Yes, Like I think about social media and
1:12:00
I'm like, shit is so heavy.
1:12:02
Yes, And it's like, especially if you're putting out
1:12:04
your creativity into the world, much like you guys
1:12:07
do in many different ways. Yeah, it's
1:12:09
just because I don't think you're designed to get that
1:12:11
much feedback.
1:12:12
No, we're not. There's too much stimulus. It's
1:12:14
too much, too much information. And
1:12:16
they're also like, it's really starting to depress me
1:12:18
walking around New York City. Not that I don't
1:12:20
do this, because I do, but just you
1:12:23
look around and there's maybe one hundred
1:12:25
people that you can physically see in that second,
1:12:27
and they're all looking at their phones,
1:12:29
and you're like, Dude, this isn't good.
1:12:32
Guys.
1:12:32
Look up, You're in one of the greatest cities in the world.
1:12:34
Just fucking look up. Do your email at home?
1:12:36
Like I had someone almost walk in at Oh.
1:12:38
That happens all the time.
1:12:39
I just feel like that people have I don't like being
1:12:42
accessible twenty four hours a day.
1:12:44
That's what really bothers me, and I really
1:12:47
I remember getting my mom wanting
1:12:49
me to have a cell phone in high school,
1:12:51
like for safety, obviously, and I cried
1:12:54
and I fought her on it. I'm the only kid I've
1:12:56
ever heard of who've cried not to get a
1:12:58
cell phone.
1:12:58
Yeah.
1:12:59
And then when I and then when I when
1:13:01
I was an adult at my first like
1:13:03
really really big serious job, which was
1:13:06
in talent management, my
1:13:08
boss gave me a BlackBerry for Christmas, obviously
1:13:10
so he could reach out to me more. And I
1:13:12
cried again.
1:13:13
I remember blacky BT.
1:13:14
The time I've gotten a fucking device where people can access
1:13:17
him more.
1:13:17
My reaction is to
1:13:19
cry, and I'm not like a big crier, So
1:13:22
this is like a big reaction from
1:13:24
me. Yeah.
1:13:25
Yeah, Well you think about what your body's actually
1:13:27
telling you.
1:13:27
Yeah.
1:13:27
It is like I think for a lot of us,
1:13:30
this is me projecting too, is that I
1:13:33
didn't know how to take
1:13:35
all that energy and not take it
1:13:37
in you know, yeah, lot of ways, because
1:13:39
I am very sensitive. I'm
1:13:42
very empathetic, but I also lacked
1:13:44
boundaries and energetic boundaries.
1:13:46
I was watching this I forget his name.
1:13:48
But I was watching a video the other day about
1:13:50
creative burnout and they were saying
1:13:52
the guy, I think he's a professor
1:13:55
at Harvard, he was saying that the
1:13:58
people who naturally are in creative are arts
1:14:00
are people who overtly self express
1:14:03
So burnout is a result of
1:14:05
actually people who go into it
1:14:07
are already biased to burn out because
1:14:09
of all the emotional processing and expressing.
1:14:12
And I thought, that's really interesting that we've,
1:14:15
like I think in my work I really monetized
1:14:17
my codependency. I was like, oh,
1:14:19
I want to help people, I'll just create a brand and
1:14:21
get paid. And so what
1:14:23
had to change was that I no longer needed
1:14:26
to source from it because otherwise,
1:14:28
and I think most people in caretaking
1:14:30
sort of roles coaches, therapists, dieticians,
1:14:33
doctors, you know, all the name them
1:14:36
are oriented their job because as kids,
1:14:38
they took care of someone, they managed the
1:14:41
energetics of the home, and so they have a natural
1:14:43
skill set that's a survival
1:14:46
strategy that can become a superpower
1:14:48
when it's no longer sourcing a
1:14:50
need to be needed. So
1:14:52
even though you're getting paid to help
1:14:55
somebody, there's still a part of you that
1:14:57
needs the validation of the helping. So
1:14:59
there's still a book into the person
1:15:01
you're serving.
1:15:02
Well yeah, yeah, but it's like helping,
1:15:05
helping is it one type of energy
1:15:08
attached to it. Serving is a different type
1:15:10
of like serving people is a different
1:15:12
type like helping implies. I was reading a quote
1:15:14
that it's like helping imply something is broken or someone
1:15:16
is broken. The fixing
1:15:19
and helping they have they're both negative energies.
1:15:21
They're they're called they're a little separate fixing and helping.
1:15:23
But then serving, how could I be of service to
1:15:25
you? Is like a totally different energy.
1:15:27
It sounds unconditional. You're right because
1:15:29
in that helping.
1:15:30
Anything return because I don't need you to give me something
1:15:32
in order for me to go.
1:15:33
I'm glad I did that right, Right,
1:15:35
it's reinforcing the other person then has.
1:15:37
To identify as broken. Yeah, yeah, good
1:15:39
point.
1:15:40
Yeah, I would be curious in
1:15:42
stand up comedy, how
1:15:44
do you, I mean, how
1:15:47
do you separate yourself from because
1:15:49
the feedback also allows you to shape
1:15:51
what you create.
1:15:52
Yeah, but also sure.
1:15:53
Yeah, if it doesn't get a laugh, you're like, all right, back
1:15:55
to the draw. You just take your emotions out of it. Yeah,
1:15:58
you can't wrap yourself worse up
1:16:00
in how your set was. That took me personally
1:16:02
a long time.
1:16:03
How long does that take?
1:16:05
You get used to it, because then you see other comics
1:16:08
do well on stage and then the audience is like, we don't
1:16:10
like them, or you see a comic that you're
1:16:12
like, this guy sucks and the audience loves it, and you're
1:16:14
like, okay, so you can
1:16:16
safely take your emotions out of how you did.
1:16:19
It's not it's practice.
1:16:21
Yeah, just witnessing other people like
1:16:23
either like have different experiences with
1:16:25
audiences. For me, that's that's what helps a little.
1:16:27
Fy it is it different being a woman in comedy?
1:16:30
Yeah? Yeah for sure. I mean I
1:16:32
like it because you're in the minority. So there's something
1:16:34
unique about you right away, which is cool. Not I
1:16:36
mean, now there's just so many much anymore. Yeah,
1:16:39
you go to any of the clubs in New York, there's I mean the lineup white
1:16:41
women really not, that's not but
1:16:44
yeah, we started it felt like there was some some type
1:16:47
of unique thing. But yeah, it's not. I mean I
1:16:49
think with most women it's like you get you'll get a spot,
1:16:51
maybe sooner than you're ready for it, because
1:16:53
the booker wants to fuck you. And then if you're
1:16:56
the only woman on the lineup and you're you're a little
1:16:58
bit of a weak sauce and everyone's like, well it's women
1:17:00
aren't fully and it's like, well, no, it's just the
1:17:02
book. I wanted to fuck her and she any booked her
1:17:04
and then she said yeah, as young as I know, you
1:17:06
know, so that happens.
1:17:07
But I also felt I think you have to be like
1:17:09
in your material, like there are some things that
1:17:11
you can see, like a charming man can
1:17:13
get away with that even no matter how charming
1:17:16
you are as a woman, like topics that you can't.
1:17:18
You have to have like more likable, palatable
1:17:21
topics.
1:17:22
And not as crass or not
1:17:25
as you can be.
1:17:26
Crass, but only sexually. So it's just so funny
1:17:28
to me because people, you know, it's like it's almost
1:17:30
like a hack complaint at this point, especially online,
1:17:32
that women comedians talk too much about
1:17:34
sex, But like I challenge anyone to
1:17:37
try and go and talk about something that is
1:17:40
interesting or high level that not
1:17:43
that doesn't have to do with sex, but like it's like politically
1:17:45
jarring or something like that.
1:17:46
Try and talk about it and see how it goes. It's not going
1:17:48
to go well, right.
1:17:49
People are on people expect
1:17:52
women to be a certain way and want
1:17:54
to hear certain things from them, And
1:17:56
I think, like step one is hearing
1:18:00
graphic sex stuff from them, But we haven't
1:18:02
gotten to step two yet, you know, like
1:18:04
in the likability category.
1:18:07
Is that wild?
1:18:08
Because you think that's very similar
1:18:10
to like the rules we take on relationally
1:18:12
what we expect from women and don't do
1:18:15
too much too emotional to a survey, right,
1:18:18
But then we also are like, don't
1:18:20
be too sexual, but if you're a comic, please
1:18:23
talk about sex, because that's how that's
1:18:25
the acceptable. It's such a mind weird, yeah,
1:18:27
because it's like, no matter you're not, you can't.
1:18:30
You can't well when you.
1:18:31
Stop warning exactly, the only way you win is
1:18:34
you have to be fiercely authentic to yourself.
1:18:36
I think it's such a I would saying to you guys before we hit
1:18:38
record that like what an opportunity
1:18:41
to both like on a large level, be empathic
1:18:43
to a space like you have to be receiving
1:18:45
feedback constantly. Oh yeah, and then you
1:18:47
have to be shifting delivery constantly,
1:18:50
so you become a master communicator.
1:18:51
Yeah. Absolutely, and you realize, like, wow,
1:18:54
saying this word in this different of a tone
1:18:56
makes the joke completely different.
1:18:58
Yeah.
1:18:58
I find for me too, that humor
1:19:01
was always a way that I deflected intimacy.
1:19:04
But then I also see that humor,
1:19:06
when.
1:19:06
Used it can be very vulnerable too,
1:19:08
like when you were when you're when your partner jokes
1:19:10
about something where you're like, uh
1:19:13
uh, you know, if you had a fight and
1:19:15
then somebody is willing to like throw the first joke in
1:19:17
and you're like, that's nice, Okay, we can put
1:19:19
our armor down, right.
1:19:21
It's one of the top qualities of successful couples,
1:19:23
is humor.
1:19:24
Oh really that's good.
1:19:25
Yeah, thank god.
1:19:26
In the distance, I just we just we just laugh
1:19:28
until we cry all day. I love it.
1:19:30
That's so fun.
1:19:30
Do you get I wanted to ask you if you still
1:19:33
get triggered by your wife?
1:19:35
Oh yeah, and.
1:19:36
What what does that look like? And what do you do? Like, what is it
1:19:39
like? What something that she does or says that triggers
1:19:41
you? And then what is what happens
1:19:43
behind the curtains of your brain of
1:19:45
how you get out of it.
1:19:47
Yeah, we talk about triggers in the book. The
1:19:50
context we also go into is good triggers.
1:19:52
So when we think about triggers, we often
1:19:54
think about you know, like one
1:19:56
that does for me is my wife giving me feedback.
1:19:59
That's is that any kind Yeah,
1:20:03
any solicitor unsolicited?
1:20:05
Yeah, because my you want to be perfect.
1:20:07
Well, I just like, if I'm getting feedback,
1:20:10
it means I wasn't good.
1:20:11
Yeah, that's the thought. So I I
1:20:14
you get butt hurt. Yeah, well there's this thought.
1:20:16
Yeah, there's well, and there's this
1:20:18
idea that you're healed when the triggers are done.
1:20:21
But actually that's not true. It's just what we do
1:20:23
with triggers that changes. So my trigger is
1:20:25
just a radar that's saying,
1:20:27
hey, we've been in this experience before, and
1:20:30
last time, you felt really bad about your
1:20:32
you know, when you were a kid, you didn't feel like you were enough.
1:20:35
So when I get feedback, I love it
1:20:37
because I'm like able to observe that
1:20:39
and then breathe into it and then ask questions.
1:20:42
Because the antidote to defensiveness
1:20:44
is actually curiosity.
1:20:46
Ooh, I like that. Yeah.
1:20:47
So if someone if your natural response
1:20:50
is to inflame, get defensive, make
1:20:52
it about the other person, then what
1:20:54
we actually would say is tell me more about
1:20:56
what you're saying, or I can see some truth
1:20:59
in what you're saying.
1:21:00
And I would say.
1:21:01
Ninety nine point nine percent of the time, my wife
1:21:03
is speaking one hundred percent truth, Okay,
1:21:05
And I'm curious, yeah, because everything she does
1:21:08
is with a positive intention of like me
1:21:10
seeing something.
1:21:11
Yeah, I've had to remind myself. I'm like, your partner
1:21:13
is not against you on your team
1:21:16
because I'm like, no, you're gonna fuck it. You're gonna fuck
1:21:18
me.
1:21:18
You're gonna fuck me.
1:21:19
In any minute. It's like, what an exhausting, What
1:21:21
an exhausting place to be all the time?
1:21:23
It's absolutely and so that trigger
1:21:26
I now am able to breathe into it
1:21:28
as always ask questions. But
1:21:30
most of the time, and if not, we are very
1:21:32
much about repair. So like, if I don't
1:21:35
respond, how I maybe could have my best
1:21:37
I come back and I'm like, I'm sorry, I could have done
1:21:39
that better. She's really I would say, she's usually
1:21:41
first to return. She's
1:21:43
definitely models that better than I do.
1:21:46
But that's the thing is like the the like
1:21:49
one of the principles we talk about in the book is
1:21:51
is to have positive regard for each other and
1:21:54
also that if something's coming up
1:21:56
for one of us, it's coming up for both of us.
1:21:58
We just don't know yet.
1:21:59
Oh that's interesting.
1:22:00
Yeah, that we honor whatever
1:22:02
is coming up for each person as needing.
1:22:04
To come up for the relationship.
1:22:06
Huh.
1:22:06
Yeah, So there's no longer do you want to avoid subjects,
1:22:09
right, because you realize that the team,
1:22:12
right, and the and the relationship needs to work
1:22:14
with this material right, So we actually
1:22:16
see that the frictions of our relationship are actually
1:22:18
allowing us both to grow. And we just had
1:22:20
a kid, so you know, it's it's like amplified
1:22:22
because you have less sleep you have and
1:22:25
you know my that I mentioned stan tecam
1:22:27
before he wrote a book called The Baby Bomb and
1:22:29
he was talking. I interviewed him
1:22:31
and he said to me that that everything
1:22:34
that comes up as a new parent is just stuff that wasn't
1:22:36
resolved yet from prior to being a parent.
1:22:39
And I was like, oh, beautiful, morse.
1:22:41
I got to learn more lessons, Yeah, exactly.
1:22:44
The good trigger's part is that we can actually
1:22:46
be triggered by good stuff like vulnerability,
1:22:48
openness, reliability, safety,
1:22:51
trust, And so it's recognizing
1:22:54
that, hey, like we will sabotage
1:22:56
or push away what we actually
1:22:58
long for because the last time we were
1:23:01
in relationship to that thing, we were really hurturt.
1:23:03
Yeah, so you know, I always
1:23:05
think that it's painfully ironic that where
1:23:09
the thing we want most wells, you know,
1:23:11
love is also where the thing
1:23:13
we most want to avoid lives. And it's almost
1:23:15
this strange humor,
1:23:19
a dark humor, but that requires us to
1:23:21
walk towards it, to walk towards it, you know.
1:23:24
Yeah, there's a mutuality to that.
1:23:26
For feedback, I
1:23:29
think a lot of people struggle with that. And
1:23:31
I hear what you're what you're saying responding
1:23:34
with curiosity I think is great advice.
1:23:36
But what do you do with a partner who.
1:23:39
Is like I think there's a time and a place
1:23:41
for feedback, And if you're someone who's constantly
1:23:43
giving or constantly like expected to
1:23:45
receive feedback, no one is living
1:23:48
perfectly at any time, Like,
1:23:50
how do you convey to someone be like I
1:23:52
don't need fucking constant nos,
1:23:55
right, you know, I mean, I think there's a time and a space for it. But if
1:23:57
someone's that's that's that's getting into nagging
1:23:59
territory, you know.
1:24:00
All. Yeah, well that's a great point because
1:24:02
there is a delineation between criticism
1:24:04
and feedback. So
1:24:07
a lot of people learn to connect
1:24:09
through criticism.
1:24:10
Oh do they mark? They do?
1:24:12
Right?
1:24:13
God?
1:24:13
And like the person you're talking about is like constantly
1:24:16
giving feedback. What they're really trying to do is
1:24:18
connect, probably what they
1:24:20
learn from a parent.
1:24:21
Yeah, And it sucks because it's like the thing
1:24:24
that you're doing to try to connect makes
1:24:26
me want to run away and go to the grave
1:24:28
without ever seeing.
1:24:29
You again, right, because it's like all you're doing
1:24:31
is reminding me that I never do anything.
1:24:33
Yeah.
1:24:34
Right.
1:24:34
So I think one of the parts of that is saying
1:24:37
like giving that feedback
1:24:40
to the person, saying like, hey, can you
1:24:42
start to connect with me through positive experiences?
1:24:45
And also can
1:24:47
you try to let me win like acknowledge
1:24:49
things, because a lot of the times we don't
1:24:51
let our partner win because if they win,
1:24:54
then we have vulnerability and closeness. If I'm
1:24:56
constantly nagging them, then
1:24:58
I get to be the one who's seeing all that problem, so
1:25:00
I don't have a problem. So it's the focus
1:25:02
is on them, and they then
1:25:05
are constantly feeling like they suck. So
1:25:08
it's creating a relational dynamic where I'm
1:25:10
in power and you're in the problem.
1:25:13
That's also good because it feels like a lot of times I think
1:25:15
people feel like when their partner is winning, the
1:25:17
winning is somehow distancing
1:25:19
their partner from that like this, this
1:25:22
is creating a space because now you you
1:25:24
are now better and I
1:25:26
am worse when in reality,
1:25:28
and I mean like this is like kind of like the anti antithesis
1:25:31
of how I think genuinely, but I truly do
1:25:33
feel like when I'm dating
1:25:35
someone you know who's I actually like
1:25:38
that it's like it's a team effort
1:25:40
and I really in my soul believe when
1:25:42
they win, I'm winning, right, And you
1:25:44
know, the the reverse has been
1:25:47
a lot harder to sell though that's
1:25:49
just because of like that's more like a
1:25:51
heterosexual female male dynamic.
1:25:53
Though with the women winning.
1:25:56
That's with
1:25:59
powerful women, because well, when we're
1:26:01
still operating on things.
1:26:03
Like do I text back, do I not do it?
1:26:04
Call? Sure, we're still thinking about
1:26:06
like the upper hand. As soon as
1:26:09
you exactly, as soon as you're in the power dynamic
1:26:11
game. You're recognizing that power
1:26:13
is somehow you're thinking power
1:26:16
is finite, right, And what you're
1:26:18
saying, which I love, is that your
1:26:21
partner becoming powerful doesn't
1:26:23
make you less powerful in unless some
1:26:25
way you gain power by their smallness.
1:26:28
Oh yeah, so it's making a whole it's to me, it's I'm
1:26:30
just thinking of it like the whole unit now has more
1:26:32
value.
1:26:33
Way more like I don't.
1:26:35
It's yeah, I'm like, how are we not seeing
1:26:37
it this way?
1:26:38
Well if men?
1:26:40
And I think there's pointing to a really important
1:26:42
thing that men need to learn today, which
1:26:45
I think when women become powerful
1:26:47
sometimes that can be a protective mechanism which
1:26:49
makes total sense, or retaliation, but
1:26:52
it's like can they soften and still be met
1:26:54
eye to eye? And then can men
1:26:56
allow a woman to be powerful without thinking
1:26:58
in some way they don't have control? Remember
1:27:00
these unconscious hooks I'm talking about. If
1:27:03
my woman can pay for all her things and take
1:27:05
care of herself, who am I?
1:27:07
Oh you're a self without that? So you have to
1:27:09
grow and learn that.
1:27:11
And that's that for us men that's
1:27:13
in the heterosexual dynamic is really
1:27:15
important to learn. I mean, these happen in any
1:27:18
relationship dynamic, these power shifts
1:27:20
and like how do I use money, how
1:27:22
do I use sex?
1:27:23
How do I use all these things?
1:27:25
But I think for men especially, it's learning
1:27:27
that having a powerful woman who got
1:27:29
who has full access to her voice
1:27:32
actually is in service of you if
1:27:35
you can handle what she's telling you right.
1:27:37
Well, for sure, nothing's more confident than seeing like
1:27:39
a guy a guy kind of just like calmly like
1:27:42
let their baby do their thing. Now
1:27:44
you see it, I mean obviously like to actually
1:27:46
see it.
1:27:47
You see it.
1:27:47
Sometimes I add an award show if you actually want to like visualize
1:27:50
it. But yeah, like I love watching
1:27:52
that in a celebrity dynamic where there's like
1:27:54
maybe like a much even you know,
1:27:57
this is just a hack example at this point, but even with
1:27:59
like a travel Kelsey and Taylor Swift
1:28:01
obviously they're both famous, but Taylor Swift is way
1:28:03
way more famous. So it's even just
1:28:06
watch him just kind of like let
1:28:08
her exist and
1:28:10
and do her thing and not try to like
1:28:13
out tailor her or something.
1:28:15
It's very and you get smashed by the Swift
1:28:17
is also you'd become an album, you'd
1:28:19
become a top album.
1:28:22
Yeah, yeah, but I mean I just love that
1:28:24
because I mean, I was I've been thinking also for the interview
1:28:27
about what you said at the beginning when we're talking about
1:28:29
codependency, that a
1:28:31
codependent person is often not the main
1:28:33
character in their own story. And I've I've described
1:28:36
being a heterosexual woman in
1:28:39
the world as that. So often I feel like
1:28:41
we are a supporting.
1:28:42
Role in our own movie. And
1:28:45
and so.
1:28:45
I mean, it's kind of coming back to that, like how can we
1:28:49
receive love and then still be the
1:28:51
star of our own film.
1:28:52
That's that's the mountain.
1:28:54
Isn't that the I think we have to
1:28:56
live that question, you know, because it's something
1:28:59
that you're always getting in for. And
1:29:01
I think there's an important differentiation of
1:29:04
because often when people start to center themselves
1:29:07
in their lives in the relationship, who am I?
1:29:09
What do I want?
1:29:10
Especially because of relationship dynamics, you'll
1:29:12
just see that be a more challenging question for
1:29:14
a woman to begin to ask, and
1:29:17
who am I without the validation of a partner
1:29:20
of being chosen, like your worthiness
1:29:23
is innate. But there's
1:29:25
a line where we'll call that self centeredness.
1:29:28
But self centeredness is at the cost of relationship.
1:29:31
Being a centered self is not.
1:29:33
It's actually in service of a relationship. And
1:29:36
that question you're asking is like, how do we
1:29:39
how do we begin to prioritize
1:29:41
ourselves make our lives about us?
1:29:44
You know, I think about it being like
1:29:47
life on your terms. But the why
1:29:49
is in brackets, because if it's in service
1:29:52
of you, it's in service of me. And
1:29:54
where there isn't this, you have to trade.
1:29:56
And I think that's the delineation also between
1:29:59
self and compromise.
1:30:02
Yeah, compromise, Like let's say my wife
1:30:04
needed us to move somewhere because she needed
1:30:07
to do something for work or and
1:30:10
that might mean I have to compromise something
1:30:12
wherever we are, I would we
1:30:14
would work together to see, like to acknowledge
1:30:17
what I might be losing for
1:30:19
something for her to gain. But it's actually
1:30:22
in service of the unit to move
1:30:24
forward, and so that compromises
1:30:27
in service of the relationship with
1:30:29
the recognition of the lass and the
1:30:31
recognition of the gain. Self abandonment
1:30:33
is often done in silence. It often
1:30:36
precedes resentment. Resentment
1:30:38
is one hundred percent of the time, one
1:30:40
hundred ninety nine point nine one
1:30:43
hundred percent of the time because it's a reflection
1:30:45
that you're not prioritizing yourself in
1:30:47
some way.
1:30:48
And I think we're getting better at relationships now
1:30:50
to foresee the resentment. Like I've
1:30:53
certainly thought this, and I've heard I'm hearing
1:30:55
people talk about this in relationships. If I
1:30:57
agree to do this, I will resent you. That's
1:31:00
it's great thinking ahead, you know.
1:31:01
Right, right, And if anyone says
1:31:04
that to you, you should never do it. You should never
1:31:06
allow them right to do it. Yeah,
1:31:08
because resentment, if we're owning our side of
1:31:10
the street, we might say I really
1:31:12
resent you, but it's really because I didn't
1:31:14
honor me.
1:31:15
Because I sacrificed something I would didn't want to
1:31:17
sacrifice you.
1:31:18
Right, And I think like one of my most painful experiences
1:31:20
in my life was a betrayal when I was nineteen.
1:31:22
Oh I went through I got cheated on.
1:31:24
Oh And I remember much
1:31:27
later processing that experience.
1:31:29
How much later, like ten years
1:31:31
twelve years later?
1:31:32
Oh you held it in? Oh?
1:31:34
Yeah, yeah, I never. I never dealt with it. I
1:31:36
drank.
1:31:37
I did everything to avoid confronting
1:31:39
that deep pain of like when I
1:31:42
love people, they lie to me, they cheat on me, I
1:31:44
lose myself.
1:31:45
I don't stand for myself.
1:31:47
But in hindsight, what I saw was that my
1:31:49
experience of betrayal was actually
1:31:51
preceded by me not honoring myself previously.
1:31:54
And like, long story short, she
1:31:56
had gone away to school and we had said it's
1:31:58
okay to see other people, but I didn't see right.
1:32:01
And so that's the heartbreaking part that was it.
1:32:03
That was like that moment drew
1:32:05
a path to where, of course
1:32:07
a betrayal was gonna happen because I was living
1:32:10
a betrayal.
1:32:11
Right. We get a lot of emails from a
1:32:13
lot of times women who they'll
1:32:15
say, like their boyfriends or husbands or something
1:32:17
did all these things and they're still there and they're so
1:32:19
heartbroken and they're focused on the guy. But
1:32:22
I'm like, I think you're actually heartbroken because you allowed
1:32:24
yourself to do that. And that's
1:32:26
a tough pill, my gal.
1:32:28
You have to come to that truth though,
1:32:31
Yeah, Yeah, you have to because
1:32:34
if you can't, you can't change.
1:32:36
Yeah, And that like it's almost
1:32:38
like reassuring in
1:32:40
a way that like the biggest heartache
1:32:42
that I've ever experienced because I betrayed
1:32:45
myself.
1:32:45
Yeah, same, you know, that's
1:32:48
bummer, And usually that can be
1:32:50
preceded by being a kid who had to
1:32:52
betray yourself to stay safe.
1:32:54
Right, So then we split and
1:32:57
there is a part of us that needed to say the thing,
1:32:59
do the thing, access to our power, but
1:33:01
that had to go silent.
1:33:03
And we do this in many ways.
1:33:04
We wear many masks, you know, because
1:33:06
as a child we learn don't be too funny, don't
1:33:09
be too emotional, don't be you.
1:33:10
Know, be seen not heard.
1:33:12
We have all these different things we're taught from
1:33:14
culture and family, but then as adults
1:33:17
we need access to that again.
1:33:18
And so it is true.
1:33:20
It is through the radical confrontation
1:33:24
with the truth, with reality,
1:33:27
because if I could be with yes, they did
1:33:29
the thing, Yes, I stayed
1:33:31
in relationship dynamics that led to that
1:33:33
thing. We often think when we take
1:33:35
responsibility for all of the experiences
1:33:37
that happen to our in our lives, that
1:33:39
we're negating the experience of being a
1:33:42
victim. But you, of course can be
1:33:44
a victim to circumstances and other people's
1:33:46
behaviors one hundred percent, but we can't
1:33:48
change them. So we have to change
1:33:50
how we see the story, which is if if
1:33:53
even though I didn't choose it, and I'm not negating
1:33:55
the experience of my victimization. How
1:33:58
is this actually in service of what I need to do
1:34:00
today, and that
1:34:02
that is actually holding the complexity
1:34:04
of the human experience.
1:34:05
That's true anyways, Yeah.
1:34:07
Yeah, but we don't know how to
1:34:09
not be the victim of something and also
1:34:12
be empowered by it.
1:34:13
Yeah, that's hard
1:34:15
to do because I think the empowered it's like, well, say
1:34:17
you date narcissist. Yeah, no, I don't know the time, Say
1:34:20
you date narcissist after narcissis and it's
1:34:22
like, yes, I am. But at some point
1:34:24
it's like, all right, that's a clear cut, Like there's
1:34:27
very clearly personal responsibility to be had
1:34:29
here. The common denominator is you,
1:34:31
right, Like, there's no you can't get mad at that
1:34:34
because you can't. And I think that people also
1:34:36
say like or maybe they're scared. At
1:34:38
least I was at one point of like, well,
1:34:40
if I take personal responsibility, I don't have to deal
1:34:42
with the shame of the behavior. And
1:34:44
yes, that's true, but like that's
1:34:47
good.
1:34:48
That's the kind of shame that changes you.
1:34:49
Yeah, there's a shame does have
1:34:52
a place.
1:34:52
It does.
1:34:52
There's a such thing called healthy shame, which
1:34:55
is not toxic shame, and it's
1:34:57
the recognition of the violation of our own
1:35:00
reality.
1:35:00
Yeah, our own values.
1:35:01
The original definition of sin is to go
1:35:03
against yourself, and then religion
1:35:05
was just it was weaponized against Yeah.
1:35:09
Right, that's a beautiful definition. We
1:35:12
have to wrap up. But Eric, I didn't know if you wanted
1:35:14
to have we usually Eric's are our new
1:35:16
third mic, and so I didn't know what to
1:35:19
chime in. I don't know.
1:35:21
I feel like I just did a lot of learning
1:35:23
myself.
1:35:25
That's what this Love That podcast is all about.
1:35:27
Education.
1:35:29
I don't I don't think I have any questions.
1:35:30
I feel like, are you opening your heart?
1:35:33
Yeah? His heart's very open.
1:35:35
I can.
1:35:38
All right, well then plug your book mark. Yeah, let's
1:35:41
go. Where can we find it?
1:35:42
Man?
1:35:43
Is it available in.
1:35:44
It's available in every form, Kindle,
1:35:47
audible, Yeah, the audible is
1:35:49
actually, yeah, all the places
1:35:52
wherever you get your books. The audio
1:35:54
version is has my wife
1:35:57
and I having conversations after each chapter.
1:35:59
Oh that's cue.
1:35:59
Yeah, it was fun. That was really fun.
1:36:01
Bonus.
1:36:02
Yeah, to be able to give people more insight into
1:36:04
our own experience and writing it
1:36:06
and yeah, it's called liberated love, and
1:36:08
it's about releasing codependent patterns and creating
1:36:10
the love and relationship you desire
1:36:13
and so everything we talked about, we like navigate
1:36:15
what shaped you, so your relationship blueprint,
1:36:18
we go through attachment and attachment
1:36:20
theory. One thing we do different than
1:36:23
a lot of books in this space is
1:36:25
that we overlay the nervous system in
1:36:27
this and how important it is, Yeah, so.
1:36:29
Important because safety is attached to it
1:36:31
exactly and it's and really the
1:36:34
work is incomplete without integration from
1:36:36
the nervous system.
1:36:37
And we talk about you know, the breakup
1:36:40
or the first relationship, the breakup and then how
1:36:42
to go back together and and it
1:36:44
is for single people or people in relationship,
1:36:46
and it gives you all the tools to do all
1:36:48
the things we're talking about today.
1:36:50
Wow. How thanks
1:36:52
for having me, Thanks for existing, and thanks
1:36:54
you for the great voice out there. We really appreciate it. We've learned
1:36:56
a lot from you.
1:36:57
Yes, and Liberated Love is out now by
1:37:00
the time you're listening to this podcast, So thank
1:37:02
you so much. This has been Guys we Fucked, the anti
1:37:04
slat chiming podcast. We'll talk to you next
1:37:06
Friday. Guys We Fucked is presented
1:37:09
by Luminary, created and hosted by
1:37:11
Karn Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing
1:37:13
and music coordination by Mike Coscarelli.
1:37:16
Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake
1:37:18
Cozen.
1:37:19
Suck my wet ass pussy. Christina
1:37:22
sends to cut that before, but now it's in airy. Yeah, let's
1:37:24
keep it.
1:37:24
Chris
1:37:48
stuck hell hellos thoughts
1:37:51
and you give it a round high
1:37:53
fe comes
1:37:56
to the service a thousand degrees.
1:37:58
No way to let it out, No way.
1:38:03
You're not broken in the world to think
1:38:05
you are in the curst, bad
1:38:07
for the sun.
1:38:12
In the hot time, Just
1:38:17
how
1:38:25
that the will
1:38:33
making these
1:38:42
to be. Don't
1:38:47
stop.
1:38:49
The hot time, I
1:38:55
cannoice.
1:38:56
Think on your lad.
1:38:57
You don't have to leave thayla
1:39:02
An the end, there's poorl outside.
1:39:04
There's a lot of weird and
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