0:00

Oh, wow. This is great news. Lily. I'm very excited

0:02

to hear this.

0:12

Welcome to groovy movies. My name

0:14

is Lily Austin.

0:16

And my name is James Brailsford. Hello!

0:18

Hey James, how the hell are you?

0:20

You know, not too bad, another day, another

0:22

dollar, just, uh, being, um, what

0:24

have I been doing?

0:25

On the Saturday.

0:27

You know,

0:28

Just making it rain every day of the

0:30

Well, not making it rain, I'm like, I've got a

0:32

leaky bucket that I'm trying to patch up.

0:34

And I'm stood out in the dry sun, just

0:36

going, come on, please, rain, make it

0:38

rain.

0:40

Yeah, I hear that, I hear that. Tough

0:43

times.

0:45

But, with the few pennies I do have, of course,

0:47

I've been going to the cinema so that we can keep this

0:49

podcast trucking.

0:52

Yeah, it was an interesting week, uh, starting

0:54

off with mother's instinct, being

0:57

somewhat disappointed and then doing a sharp

0:59

turn into civil war. Yeah,

1:02

we pivoted, we pivoted on what we wanted to talk about.

1:04

I was hoping that, uh, that Mother's Instinct might

1:06

have enough meat on the bones to be worth us discussing,

1:09

so I still haven't seen it yet, but after your,

1:11

you know, you, you didn't seem too enthused by

1:13

it, it seemed, uh, right. Enough of that nonsense

1:15

then, let's go full tilt Civil War.

1:18

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was okay. Like it wasn't

1:21

terrible, but I just didn't think it was original

1:23

enough for that to be much faster

1:25

chat about, um,

1:27

like, kind of business, stuff you've seen before

1:29

done nice

1:31

It just seemed like a, quite a predictable,

1:35

uh, thriller really. So

1:37

I, I mean, I didn't want to be negative. So, so

1:40

that was why we weren't going to talk about it, but here

1:42

we are. Ha, ha,

1:44

So we have pivoted to pretty much the opposite

1:46

end of the cinematic spectrum and gone

1:49

for Alex Garland's Civil

1:51

War, which is A24's

1:53

latest offering.

1:55

That's right. And yeah, with a budget of 50

1:57

million, it's also their biggest movie to

1:59

date. it's predicted to gross

2:01

around 20 million this weekend.

2:04

So by the time you're listening to this guys,

2:06

you'll know you'll be able to look it up, who knows.

2:08

But if it does hit that market, it's

2:10

going to break a 24's record and

2:12

even potentially push Godzilla X

2:15

Kong off the top spot. So

2:17

big weekend for a 24. it's interesting

2:20

because they've only been around since

2:22

2012. And yet

2:24

they just seem to have, they cannot put

2:26

a foot wrong. They just go from strength to

2:28

strength.

2:29

I was surprised when I researched the background

2:31

because I realized, Hey, I don't actually know anything really

2:34

about the background of A24. And then when I researched

2:36

it, I was like, Oh, they're a very new operation.

2:38

God, they've done well. But then when you research

2:41

it, you realize it wasn't like a bunch of college

2:43

students who had a big dream of making a studio.

2:45

This was, quite seasoned industry professionals

2:47

who saw a gap in the market

2:49

that they identified that wasn't being serviced

2:52

by low budget, independent.

2:54

Films that were different from the mainstream. And I think

2:56

they, you know, they took seed capital

2:58

from Guggenheim partners, where one of them was

3:00

the head of their film financing

3:03

department. So these were seasoned, industry

3:06

and finance industry, uh, um,

3:08

experts,

3:11

three guys, two of whom are called David,

3:14

David Fenkel and David Katz, and also a man

3:16

called John Hodges. So, so far,

3:18

so standard names, but, they are not

3:20

standard men because you're right. They

3:22

saw this gap in the market for,

3:24

well made, uh, High quality

3:27

movies that were targeted not at

3:29

an older audience, like the kind of classic

3:32

prestige TV

3:34

shows and like big budget kind of historical

3:37

films Instead wanted to appeal

3:39

to like younger cinephiles

3:41

and also alongside that Decided that

3:44

rather than doing the kind of standard traditional

3:47

advertising strategies

3:49

for films, so like, you know, expensive

3:51

print ads and posters everywhere,

3:54

they would focus more on like digital marketing

3:56

and using social media to, to reach

3:58

their audience.

3:59

I heard that 90 percent of their marketing spend is digital

4:01

and online. You know, so the majority, the vast

4:03

majority of all their marketing is online because

4:06

that's where their target audience lives. Isn't it

4:08

really? It's a social media world

4:10

that the 20 something target audience,

4:12

I suspect

4:13

yeah, yeah.

4:14

is that, that, that's, that's where they are. So you've

4:16

got to advertise where they're going to be.

4:17

And it's smart because it's not something I've even

4:20

thought about. Clocked, but it, it

4:22

makes sense because their films, people

4:24

are aware of them. They don't go

4:27

under the radar. And I think that

4:29

is that kind of really

4:31

smart kind of social media

4:34

marketing presence that cause we're all there.

4:36

We're all on social media all the time.

4:38

Absolutely. And they've done all the smart stuff that you should

4:40

do with any brand, which is they have a clear brand

4:42

identity. Their Twitter account, it has character

4:45

and a personality that reflects the kind

4:47

of brand that it is. So they're doing all the right things

4:49

that a modern, successful brand targeting

4:52

a younger demographic should do really, which

4:54

is this kind of authentic voice,

4:56

you know, you use your social media. You don't

4:58

feel like you're being given the hard sell.

5:00

So yeah, they started in 2012

5:02

and then in March

5:04

2013, um,

5:07

they, they started out at just in distribution

5:09

initially. So they had this big deal with Spring

5:11

Breakers, a film,

5:13

break.

5:16

Yeah, a film that James loves and

5:18

I, I love less, but

5:21

that was a big hit for them because the budget

5:23

was five mil, but they made 32 million

5:25

with that, which I didn't realize actually

5:27

A24 essentially doing what Dozens

5:30

of, film production companies used

5:32

to do and have kind of got squeezed out of the market,

5:34

which is they make low budget films or

5:37

relatively low budget that make a modest

5:39

amount of money because all the big studios

5:41

have just gone for gamble, big gamble,

5:43

big spend two to 300 million, let's

5:45

hope we make a billion. And, you know,

5:48

it's the classic case of the more risk you take,

5:50

the greater the reward, but the greater the loss,

5:53

you know, so maybe you only make 20

5:55

million on spring breakers or 15 million.

5:59

Because you just need to make 10 million

6:01

on a 5 million budget, and then you're making

6:03

profit. It's a lower risk, lower return

6:05

situation, but it means you can build the studio

6:08

a bit more sustainably.

6:09

That's a good point. Cause obviously to a big studio,

6:11

32 million is nothing,

6:14

but if you're keeping your budgets low,

6:16

it means you can slowly build up your output

6:18

and, keep it focused on passion projects.

6:20

Because that's the thing with A24, if you look

6:22

at all the movies they've made, there are always movies

6:25

where it's original,

6:27

and the director and writer,

6:30

their vision is at the heart of

6:32

it.

6:32

You can see that they are films that were wanting

6:34

to be made by somebody. These weren't

6:36

an assignment. A24 didn't say,

6:38

oh, you know what, we just need like

6:41

a rom com. Anyone make us a rom com? No,

6:43

it's clear that people come to A24

6:46

with their passion project.

6:48

Totally. Yeah. So then in 2014,

6:51

they moved into production and

6:53

made a splash because their first movie

6:55

that they produced was Moonlight, Barry

6:57

Jenkins movie that went on to

6:59

win the Best Picture Oscar. If everyone remembers

7:01

that controversy with the wrong name being read out

7:04

and that was a budget of 1. 5 million.

7:06

So a tiny budget and it grows 65

7:08

million. So huge, huge hit in

7:10

every respect, both critical and financial.

7:13

Yeah. And what's interesting as well, another little

7:15

thing that just kind of came across my path doing

7:17

the research is that, the producer of Ladybird

7:19

is an older producer who's been in the

7:22

industry for decades. And

7:24

he said that his experience of working

7:26

with A24 as producing partners was they're

7:28

the best company he's ever worked with in

7:30

his career. So not only are they producing

7:33

good films that are commercial and critical

7:35

hits on low budgets, but the people

7:37

in the industry who are working with them, for

7:40

a producer to say that they're the best company he's ever

7:42

worked with in his decade long career, that's, that,

7:44

that's got to mean something. So clearly they employ

7:47

good staff and they've got a tight company.

7:50

And you can tell because the directors

7:52

who work with them continue to work with

7:54

them. Yorgos Lanthimos. Has worked, with

7:57

them for years, Ari Aster, all of his

7:59

movies, Hereditary, et cetera, all came out, Joanna

8:01

Hogg, all these incredible directors, all,

8:04

all the directors that we know by

8:06

name recognition who make incredible indie

8:08

movies, basically, they all work with A24, so,

8:11

Yeah, I mean, it's a bit like, uh, sorry

8:13

to raise this, uh, this production company, but,

8:15

you know, in the nineties, Miramax were doing that. They were

8:17

making these low budget independents that, you know, they

8:19

are the, they were the production company that kind

8:21

of nurtured Tarantino that kept

8:24

working. So, so they're doing that

8:26

kind of thing for the current generation

8:28

of filmmakers. They are the studio you kind of

8:30

go to.

8:31

And lest we forget Euphoria, it's not just

8:33

movies, it's TV as well. That's,

8:35

you know, huge, huge hit. 32

8:37

Oscar nominations, 7 wins and 23

8:40

Emmys. So, across the board,

8:42

just absolutely smashing it.

8:45

So they're on a roll. They're absolutely on a roll

8:47

right now.

8:47

They're on a roll, but there was controversy last

8:49

year when it was announced that they'd had like over

8:52

200 million in investment. And

8:54

so there were big plans to expand. They

8:56

opened offices in London. They've got eyes on other territories

8:59

and online. It was very much the narrative

9:01

of, Oh no, they're going to expand

9:03

into big budget movies. Is this the end

9:06

of the like heyday of age 24?

9:09

And. Looking at the faces

9:11

that you're pulling, James, I feel like you are concerned

9:13

about this, but to my mind, Civil War

9:15

proves that A24 are going to stay true

9:17

to their, to their roots

9:20

and their USP of originality

9:22

and an indie sensibility, even if

9:24

they have more money to put behind some of these

9:26

directors.

9:27

I agree with you that they're still staying to the roots,

9:29

but I wonder if they will continue to

9:31

make money as they kind of push themselves

9:33

into this slightly bigger budget arena that I

9:36

think I'm sure everyone at A24 will

9:38

be looking at civil war is very much a test case

9:40

Is there enough of an audience to bring a

9:42

return on something like, on this

9:45

subject matter at this budget?

9:46

Shall I give us a little overview of the plot summary?

9:49

Yeah, I'm volunteering myself

9:52

for the role, so be careful for next week, you

9:54

might be on the,

9:56

I was gonna say on the chopping block, but hopefully

9:59

not that. Um, okay, so,

10:01

Civil War, in case you guys haven't seen

10:03

the trailer, it is set

10:06

in, I'm assuming, a kind

10:08

of, an alternative

10:10

now, right? It feels contemporary.

10:14

It's set in an America where there

10:16

is a totalitarian dictator,

10:18

basically. There is a fascist president

10:21

in charge and two

10:23

states, Texas and California,

10:26

have banded together to try

10:28

and

10:29

The Western Front.

10:30

Yes, it's known as the Western Front and it's very,

10:32

I think it's very interesting and significant that

10:34

it's California and Texas, but we'll get to that

10:36

later. The film opens with the president

10:39

practicing his speech about.

10:42

Where they're at in the war, which I think is interesting.

10:44

I'm wonder what that means. And then we go on to

10:46

follow a group of journalists

10:49

and photo journalists as they

10:51

head towards Washington to the White House,

10:53

the kind of the front, of

10:55

the battle. kind of a road movie

10:57

essentially, because we're, we're, we're on the road

10:59

for most of the film heading that way. And,

11:02

and you see what's happening in this war

11:04

as you, as you go.

11:06

Yeah, I mean, as the film started to

11:08

kind of progress, I thought, okay, this is very much

11:10

a riff on Apocalypse Now, isn't it? In Apocalypse

11:13

Now, you have a small team of people

11:15

on a boat and their mission is to get to

11:17

Colonel Kurtz and terminate

11:19

Colonel Kurtz. But, but they have a person

11:22

they're trying to get to through a war

11:24

zone, So I was like, okay, so Alex Garland is,

11:26

is certainly. riffing on

11:28

Apocalypse Now with, with Civil War, because

11:30

it's a very episodic film, Civil War,

11:32

you know, there's, the plot line is very

11:34

loose because they've, the plot is they have to

11:36

get to the White House. And so it's

11:38

then, it's the vignettes that occur

11:40

on their journey there into, into the heart of

11:42

darkness,

11:43

So we follow Kirsten Dunst

11:45

who plays Leigh named after

11:48

Leigh Miller, the famous photojournalist.

11:50

So from the get go you, that you kind of get the

11:52

sense that this film is very much about like

11:55

the role of photojournalism and the press

11:57

in a conflict. And then also Wagner Mora

12:00

who plays Joel and Kayleigh

12:03

Spaney who plays Jessie, It's

12:06

the actor who was also in Priscilla and I honestly

12:08

did not realize until after the movie

12:10

doing, doing my sort of post movie

12:12

research. Like I cannot believe that she's,

12:15

she's a very good actor because it's not like she looks that different

12:17

but just. Very different roles.

12:20

Um, and then also Stephen McKinley

12:22

plays Sammy. So who's like, you know, the

12:25

veteran journalist.

12:27

So the four of them, Jesse, Kaylee plays

12:29

Jesse, who's like a young woman trying to

12:31

break into the industry very much at the start of her

12:33

career. And Lee and Joel are the kind

12:36

of later in their career. Jealous.

12:38

Who've, who've seen a lot of war.

12:41

So, so we've got these different roles within

12:43

the crew who are headed there.

12:45

When I was watching this, I was hoping to

12:47

kind of really get an understanding of the moral

12:49

gray area, that, that photojournalists

12:52

have to act, take a, take a stance

12:54

in really. But I, I didn't feel

12:56

like I felt any of that at

12:58

all, which, which was a shame. I, cause I, I

13:00

was, that's what I was hoping I would get some

13:03

taste of. Uh

13:06

Was struck by the

13:10

way it was filmed. The

13:12

camera holds on every, there

13:14

was a lot of violence in this movie,

13:16

but the way it is filmed, the

13:18

camera never looks away. It holds still.

13:22

on every violent moment.

13:24

And in a way that makes you not want to

13:27

look away either. You know, I did, I didn't

13:29

flinch and look away. Even though some of the things

13:31

I was watching were, definitely, you

13:33

know, unpleasant to watch. And

13:36

I think that was reflecting

13:39

the role of The journalist

13:41

perhaps, or, or how they view the

13:43

role of journalism in war, which is

13:45

like you, you're not meant to look away because

13:47

we need to bear witness to violence,

13:50

I think they were very willfully

13:53

choosing not to reckon with it because

13:55

if you, as a journalist, if you go down that

13:57

path, you're It's going to fuck

14:00

you up and and I felt like there was

14:02

a custom dance alludes to that but

14:04

I think in order to

14:06

do that job, you, you can't really go

14:08

that, but that doesn't mean as a viewer watching it, you

14:11

don't think about it because I was thinking about the whole way

14:13

through and in my mind, I

14:15

thought that was what, you know, The film wanted me to

14:17

do, but what was interesting was watching

14:19

an interview with the cast, they

14:21

referred to it, well, the journalist

14:23

interviewing them referred to it as a love letter to

14:25

journalism. And I thought

14:28

that's interesting that that was their perspective

14:30

because to me, I didn't feel like

14:32

it was that. I felt like,

14:34

definitely didn't think of it as a love letter to journalism.

14:36

That's for sure. Yeah.

14:37

What I loved about the film is if you watch the

14:39

trailer, you could think that this is going to be

14:41

quite a standard action movie. Okay,

14:44

using an interesting,

14:46

like, an interesting take

14:48

being like, it's a civil war, but in the

14:50

US, you know, but like you could assume

14:53

that it was going to go down a more like standard route.

14:55

But I felt like because it was so, so stark

14:57

and it wasn't like glamorizing.

15:00

The conflict at all. It doesn't, like the, basically

15:02

there is no clear cut, like baddies

15:05

and goodies. You're not rooting for a

15:07

particular side. You know, the actual war

15:09

itself isn't, I don't think like portrayed

15:11

in like a glam, glamorous, exciting, actiony

15:14

way. Like, Oh, come on. Yeah. We want you guys to

15:16

win. But the one thing

15:18

that I thought was slightly, slightly Glamorous

15:21

though. Also, I, I, I believe kind of fairly

15:23

accurate was early on when we meet the photo

15:25

journal, all the journalists in the, in

15:28

the the hotel where they're all

15:30

staying. And if there's like music playing

15:32

and everyone's drinking and having a good time.

15:34

And I believe from having, you know, It was

15:36

interesting because they mentioned in this interview that they

15:38

looked at, um, a documentary about

15:41

Marie Colvin, who was like a photojournalist,

15:43

as a reference point, and I, and I kept

15:45

thinking about her memoir that I read,

15:48

it's called, like, An Extremist. It's really good. Strongly

15:50

recommend. And in that they talk about these

15:52

bars that everyone, you know, and it's

15:54

like the one place during the conflict where

15:56

you can have a, like, a bit of escapism from

15:58

what's going on because, you know, you're there with

16:01

your colleagues, you're all on the same page

16:03

and you're, the drinks are flowing and you just have

16:05

a breather, but that was, seemed kind

16:07

of glamorous. But apart from that, I didn't feel like

16:09

it really was portraying

16:12

journalism in a Positive way, not in a negative,

16:15

but just like I felt like it was questioning

16:17

it.

16:18

I think what started to frustrate me with the film early

16:20

on was I wasn't sure what

16:22

its point was, and I

16:24

know you could say, well, that's the point of the film, I

16:26

didn't see it as a love letter to journalism, but I'm not sure

16:28

what it was to journalism, there were two

16:31

films I was thinking of all the way through the film,

16:33

and there was one film that I've been thinking about afterwards. The

16:35

two films I thought were the one that I would reference, which is Apocalypse

16:37

Now, which I think is its clearest,

16:39

like, let's say, there's a, at least the structure

16:42

of it. This, like, a group of ragtag

16:44

people on a mission with very loosely unstructured

16:46

stories. But then I was thinking of, um,

16:49

Spring Breakers, and I didn't realize A24

16:51

made Spring Breakers, because I was thinking I would

16:54

completely engage with this film in

16:56

a Much deeper level if

16:59

it was much more abstracted.

17:01

Cause what, what, what I think what happened

17:03

for me watching this film is that we

17:05

have an attempt to abstraction by saying, Oh,

17:08

then it's not really like Democrats versus

17:10

Republicans. It's, it's, we're not saying who's

17:12

it's who it's like, cause that doesn't matter.

17:14

And it's true. I don't, I'm quite happy to abstract

17:17

who the bad people and the good people are. That that's

17:19

good. It makes it a much more interesting film. But,

17:21

uh, It wasn't abstracted enough. I'd

17:23

like, get it Neon Drench, set it further

17:25

in the future, make it a conflict, but let's

17:27

discuss what the conflict is about.

17:30

And because we abstracted it further.

17:33

I just think by making it a bit

17:35

abstract, but also making it look

17:37

and feel exactly like the real

17:39

world didn't work for me. I think

17:41

that was the fundamental kind of the thing

17:43

that didn't quite settle.

17:45

I personally liked that. It

17:47

felt so

17:50

real. Alex Garland wrote it

17:52

during covert and

17:54

they filmed it. Basically between

17:57

COVID and the, the strikes

17:59

of last year, kind of in that little, that,

18:01

that moment they took advantage

18:04

that was fortunate, but it then meant, yeah,

18:06

it got pushed back and it's only now being released.

18:08

That's four years basically of, from

18:10

start to end, he hadn't anticipated taking

18:12

so long, but obviously with all these things it did,

18:15

but it's interesting that he wrote it before.

18:18

The January insurrection,

18:20

and that there's so

18:22

much about the film that feels, reflective

18:25

of That time. I

18:28

mean, of course, he was writing it during COVID and there was a lot

18:30

of unrest with, the riots that were going on around

18:32

George Floyd and that kind of thing. But it was kind

18:34

of interesting that like, it was almost slightly

18:36

foreshadowing what, what ended up happening.

18:39

And, and now we're at a point, right,

18:41

of an election year where basically we're back

18:43

to square one. Okay. I, I listened

18:45

to an interview about Scar where he thought, like, I didn't expect

18:47

to be in basically the exact same place

18:50

I was in, we were in a, you

18:52

know, a few years ago and it feels like déjà

18:54

vu, so I think, it was a choice

18:57

to make this movie realistic,

18:59

but I thought the whole point of the film, right, is about

19:02

the idea that, polarization

19:05

doesn't work. And

19:07

the reason California and Texas

19:09

are a team

19:12

is because They have chosen to put

19:14

their differences aside because there

19:16

is a fascist dictator.

19:18

here's the film I wanted to see. I wanted to see Texas

19:20

and California pairing up and

19:22

forming the Western front. The amount of questions

19:24

that ask us, Texas and California are clearly

19:26

in the real world. We live in are the most

19:29

diametrically opposed politically

19:31

you could ever imagine. So for them to come together

19:33

as, Oh, there's an interesting story. There's

19:35

something I'd like to see that. I'd like to see them forming

19:37

the Western front

19:38

Right. Yeah.

19:39

cause I just felt like

19:41

Because we didn't actually see it. We just knew

19:43

theoretically that that's what's going on.

19:45

I did feel that even though I'm

19:48

comparing this to Apocalypse Now, it felt thin

19:50

compared to Apocalypse Now. I wasn't

19:53

sat asking myself lots of questions

19:55

like, for example, Zone of it. Zone

19:57

of interest. It was making me think a lot

19:59

about the nature of evil, the mundanity of evil,

20:01

the way it was presented. I wasn't having

20:03

those thoughts at all with Civil War, really.

20:05

And I think, I think part of it, Lily,

20:07

is that it's not difficult for me

20:09

to, without any effort, imagine

20:11

a Civil War in America. It's not a fantasy

20:14

that's, you know, It's just impossible to imagine that

20:16

looking at the news, it looks and feels

20:18

like there's war zones kicking off around

20:21

the world. So, I think I found

20:23

it quite a cold watching a cinema,

20:25

and unfortunately, the cinema was quite empty

20:28

on a Friday afternoon, which it should really

20:30

have a few people. So, I just think it's

20:32

brilliant. possibly going to not really be that

20:34

appealing to audiences who right now

20:36

probably just want to escape a little bit. And this is,

20:39

I just think the timing isn't great

20:41

either. I just think it's going to be hard to get people

20:43

to sit in a theater and watch this.

20:45

So my cinema was packed. But

20:48

having said that, yeah, it was absolutely

20:50

round. I was at the BFI IMAX and

20:53

I've, I've,

20:53

are you? Oh,

20:56

which one is it? Which one is it?

20:58

L so it's slightly more expensive,

21:00

like you suggested, but not the so expensive that

21:02

you're quite far back. I was exactly

21:04

in the middle. I had enough leg room

21:06

that I was comfortable enough I could have done with a bit more, but I'm,

21:08

I'm happy with l

21:10

Oh, wow. This is great news. Lily. I'm very excited

21:12

to hear this.

21:13

Yes. And okay. So just to talk about

21:15

that, that's this experience. So as I was

21:18

going into the cinema, I heard this guy go,

21:20

Oh, I thought it was going to be a two and a half

21:22

hour jobby. That's great. Because

21:24

obviously his girlfriend had just said to him, the movie

21:27

is only an hour and 54 minutes. So

21:29

love that major points because

21:32

how rare that a big action movie

21:34

would be so short would be under two hours.

21:37

from that. But as I was

21:39

coming out of cinema, because I

21:41

had so many things that I was thinking about during the film,

21:44

so it, it really spoke to me, but I think

21:46

a cold watch is very,

21:48

I am totally with you on that, but I'll get back

21:50

to that, but as we were leaving, I could hear

21:52

someone talking to his friends saying, I

21:54

didn't really get, you know, whose

21:57

side was who, What the conflict

21:59

was about kind of thing. And I could send,

22:01

I could feel some dissatisfaction

22:04

though. I did also hear someone else saying it's even better

22:06

on the third watch who like worked at the cinema. So,

22:09

so so I think it is, it's,

22:12

it's definitely, I see the potential

22:14

for this movie to be divisive because in

22:16

the cinema, a minority being

22:18

a woman. Everyone in my row, it was all

22:20

men who, you know, they had to

22:22

see their, Friday night action

22:24

movie or whatever and I can imagine

22:27

being disappointed because it's not kind

22:29

of gratuitous, exciting violence.

22:31

It is cold blooded,

22:33

I know that's the, that's the thing. It's like,

22:35

for me, I, found

22:38

it very thought provoking,

22:40

you know, all of that stuff is deliberate choice

22:42

and I can understand why, you know,

22:45

you'd have preferred a slightly different film where it went

22:47

into why exactly California

22:49

in Texas. Got together

22:51

how that went about, but actually to me, I thought

22:53

that wasn't the story it was looking to tell, I

22:56

think there were two things going on. I felt like there

22:58

was quite a clear message about the importance

23:00

of not being polarized because,

23:03

I think just it's like showing

23:05

what the most extreme situation

23:07

aka kind of a fascist president

23:10

And the necessity to put differences

23:12

aside, but I think you're right. The timing is

23:15

unfortunate because I think Alex Garland was probably

23:18

writing this movie, in the midst

23:20

of the height of Trump as president

23:22

and all the controversy and difficulty

23:25

around that during COVID. And

23:27

so he's going further and being

23:29

like, okay, but like if we allow

23:31

this stuff. To happen

23:34

because we are so divided

23:37

where it can lead. Unfortunately

23:39

we're at a point where it doesn't seem like, yeah,

23:41

we're back to square one. We're in the exact same position

23:43

and you're right. I feel like in, within that context,

23:46

a lot of people maybe don't want

23:49

to explore that subject.

23:52

We like to discuss films that we're both passionate about.

23:54

Whereas this, this one just, you know, I, just

23:56

to put my cards on the table, I'm a huge fan of

23:58

Alex Garland's a director. I've watched every single one

24:00

of his films. I watched every episode of devs, you know,

24:03

Yeah. He, He, made ex machina,

24:05

Mackinac, which

24:06

uh, annihilation.

24:08

Yes. Which I love an underrated one. The last

24:10

act of that I absolutely love, but,

24:11

See, I hate the last act of that. Ha

24:13

See, really,

24:14

ha ha ha ha

24:18

watch it's like, oh, it was worth it

24:20

for the last act.

24:21

I was just like, what's going

24:23

That's that scene in the lighthouse. Oh,

24:26

Yeah, for me, I was like, get What

24:28

the, what's, where, we've devolved, we've

24:30

devolved. Okay, so this is great, because, okay,

24:32

so clearly, we are Alex

24:35

Garland, we, we're kind of yin

24:37

and yang on him. But there's a lot of love

24:39

there in, in the

24:40

but, oh yeah, We're both here for him., I just,

24:42

I just. Just think that this film, it's

24:45

very literal. There's, there's no poetry.

24:48

it's unrelentingly literal and

24:50

I, perhaps that's what it is for

24:52

me, I realize that the world

24:54

right now is on a knife edge. I,

24:56

I'm aware of that. And so seeing it

24:58

literally portrayed, I just think

25:01

it just was a bit too much.

25:03

It's right here right now. And

25:05

when I turn the news on, it's like exactly

25:07

the same.

25:08

but maybe that's what we need though. Yeah,

25:11

Let's see what the audience decide.

25:13

Let's the box office. I think this could be

25:15

a bit too much of an ask of an audience to kind

25:18

of get that over the, let's say it needs to make a hundred

25:20

million to break even. Let, let's see

25:22

if it gets there. I, I'm not sure it

25:24

will.

25:25

that, I mean, that opener on Thursday

25:27

was good. It was strong. It's 2.

25:30

5 mil, but yeah, there could be a steep

25:32

drop off. I, I think maybe your gut is

25:34

right. I think the fact that I, enjoyed

25:37

this action movie so much means

25:39

they probably won't do very well.

25:41

Absolutely I certainly wouldn't recommend this to

25:43

anybody who likes action movies.

25:45

This would not be on a list of recommendations because it's

25:47

not really an action movie. It's a film about

25:50

a civil war. And because of that, it has

25:52

some action in it.

25:53

I think we were having the same kind of thoughts

25:55

because I also

25:57

did think about the fact that it isn't,

25:59

it's not a beautiful film to look at. It's

26:02

like, obviously got a big budget, but it's very,

26:05

he's not done anything that interesting

26:07

with the cinematography or anything like that. And again, I'm

26:09

sure, a deliberate choice because I, I think

26:12

Ex Machina looks amazing.

26:14

Interesting you should say that because it's the same cinematographer.

26:16

He's worked with Rob Hardy, if not on all

26:18

of his films, then nearly all of them. So he did X

26:20

Men and he also shot Civil War. And

26:22

it's interesting that you should note the cinematography because they did

26:24

shoot it on a brand new camera that's

26:26

like innovative in that, um, it's got

26:28

a built in gimbal to stabilize the image.

26:31

So you have a camera body and it's like basically got a built

26:33

in steadicam. So you can just pick

26:35

it up and start shooting. It'll look smooth

26:37

and it'll look nice. You don't have to put tracks down

26:39

There you go. It was very

26:41

I. Yeah, and it, but what it does, it

26:43

just means you can kind of shoot run and gun quite

26:45

fast and it looks all right. But I did

26:47

notice that, especially on the IMAX screen, like

26:49

those people's faces, it, you

26:51

saw every pock and every hole. And again, in

26:54

this kind of gritty civil war, it works, but it just

26:56

means you're looking at a lot of faces and

26:58

it's not the most flattering image. And

27:00

you know, that, that, that works for the movie.

27:02

We,

27:02

I know, I know, but I like, I just like a little bit

27:05

of just, just a little bit. Come

27:07

on.

27:09

No, I

27:09

I don't want to see every pole.

27:10

Oh, no, I'm, I'm happy. I'm happy with the pause.

27:13

I'm happy with the pause. But, and the other thing

27:15

I wanted to, to say, something

27:17

that, like, I kept thinking about

27:19

during the film was the fact that the film

27:21

is very much focused on the

27:24

story of these journalists and particularly

27:26

photojournalists capturing the

27:28

importance of capturing photos.

27:31

On the ground in war because actually

27:33

the heyday of photojournalism has

27:35

been in gone. Photojournalism in

27:38

conflict is basically a dying industry

27:40

as a lot of industries today because of the rise

27:42

of the smartphone and how Interconnected

27:45

we are across the world. You know, you don't need to

27:47

hire a journalist from the

27:49

New York Times to To fly to

27:51

this way and that way, there won't be, there

27:53

wouldn't be a photojournalist flying in from Hong

27:55

Kong to be on the ground during a civil

27:57

war because everyone is on their

27:59

phones posting images on social media

28:02

all the time of what's going on around them. And

28:04

you can just lift those images, you know, or

28:06

buy them from, you know, the internet. X

28:09

or whatever and, and use them. That is

28:11

how the industry now works. You know, this is something that

28:13

photojournalists are talking about. The fact that there

28:16

isn't really the business for it anymore,

28:18

which is those pros

28:20

and cons to that. You know, it just felt

28:22

very, very, out of step with

28:24

actually what's happening in the world. And they did, uh, there

28:26

was this moment where they talked about, oh, no signals.

28:28

So I think they were trying to, for a very

28:31

brief moment, explain why it was

28:33

made sense, but it's like, okay, sure.

28:35

I

28:36

well, Lily, you've, you've just parked

28:38

us right in a topic that I was thinking, can

28:40

I wedge this in here? So I'm going to go for it now. Do you

28:42

fancy having a quick talk about synecdoches or

28:45

synecdoches? You tell me how you pronounce it. Cause I'm not sure synecdoches.

28:47

Synecdoches.

28:48

I don't know what you're saying.

28:50

a synecdoche.

28:53

It's a part that represents the whole, so

28:56

A part that represents the heart. How do you

28:58

spell that? Oh my gosh, you're teaching me

29:00

N E C. It's like Synecdoche, New

29:03

York, the film by Charlie Kaufman.

29:05

Oh, yes, I have seen that movie.

29:08

I, yeah, I didn't know how you I

29:10

So anyway, leave us a comment on

29:12

our socials. Tell us how we pronounce it. Let's go with Synecdoche,

29:15

right? So anyway, it's a part that represents the whole.

29:17

And so, um, in filmmaking, I

29:19

think the shot of the Harkonnen's

29:22

whips in dune when we have that close up on their

29:24

belts and you can see a whip. That one

29:26

shot, of a part of a Harkonnen

29:28

represents the entire society. That whip represents

29:31

immediately brutality, cruelty,

29:33

sadism. So, you know, from one shot you

29:35

get a whole,

29:36

Love it. Obsessed with

29:38

I there's a moment in

29:40

Civil War, I just thought, ah, this one

29:42

part is summing up, I think the

29:45

whole kind of, there's just something not

29:47

quite gelling for me. It was when Jesse

29:49

is developing her 35 millimeter

29:52

film.

29:53

what you were going to say, James. Because yeah, for me as well,

29:55

I was like, eh,

29:57

What? And, and just

29:59

that, like, like, I'm a huge advocate for film.

30:01

You know, I go on about film all the time, but not

30:04

in a war zone.

30:05

Yeah, so she's on some bleachers in

30:07

a makeshift camp and

30:10

she's got all of her film

30:12

equipment with her. She's got her film.

30:14

She's developing it there. Analog

30:17

film Yeah, she's got the chemicals, she's

30:19

putting them in a thing, she's bringing out the film,

30:22

and, but then, to tie it to the modern

30:24

day, she's, she's somehow

30:26

feeding it through this device to look

30:29

at her images on her phone, and

30:31

it's just like, I'm sorry, in what world were the 23

30:34

year old, I don't care that these cameras are her dad

30:37

that she would be shooting on

30:39

film. It makes no sense.

30:40

In what world does Kirsten Dunst, a grizzled,

30:42

experienced combat veteran,

30:45

a photographer not go, What the fuck are you

30:47

doing shooting on film in a war zone? She's just

30:49

like totally calm, but so It was

30:51

that thing I realized then it's like, ah,

30:53

we're, we're watching a film that is, set in

30:55

an alternate world, but it's not quite

30:57

grounded. So if that thing

30:59

isn't quite grounded, right. You know,

31:01

like everything

31:02

yeah, because it's meant, it's meant to be completely, completely

31:04

realistic. And then we've got this very jarring

31:07

thing that

31:08

Yeah.

31:09

wouldn't be happening.

31:11

So I was like, Ooh, that's the Synodoke thing going on

31:13

there. I'll bring it up with Lily if I can get it in

31:15

there.

31:15

So you're saying that the synecdoche is

31:17

the fact that it does, the film doesn't work. And

31:19

that, that one scene, it reflects

31:22

the whole.

31:22

Because I think that's, that's, that one scene

31:24

is the most visible where you go, Oh wait,

31:27

that doesn't quite ring true. And I think

31:29

I had that feeling throughout the whole film. Like it's just

31:31

not quite ringing true and I can't put my finger

31:34

on it. And in that one scene, it's like, Oh no, I

31:36

can put my finger on what's going there.

31:37

Okay. Yeah, I see that. I see that. That

31:40

moment was jarring for me too. And there are a few

31:42

moments like that, but I think overall,

31:46

I hate to say it sounds very wanky, but I think it's an important

31:48

film and it's, and it does, at

31:50

least it made me, you know, I think,

31:52

and I'm glad, I'm glad

31:54

it exists, and I think, I think Axelrod

31:57

did a good job. I think it's solid,

31:59

I think as far as a big budget

32:01

movie goes, it's very interesting and very

32:04

different. I mean, I've never seen a film that so

32:07

starkly shows

32:09

the brutality. of war

32:12

and I appreciated that.

32:14

So I think, I think it's solid. I think

32:16

everyone should go see it. I want A24 to continue

32:18

to do well and I, I don't want them to

32:21

go into franchise or generic

32:23

movie territory. And this film is definitely original,

32:25

but you're right, maybe it doesn't always land

32:27

well.

32:27

I'm with you on that Lily. I want A24 to

32:29

succeed and go ahead, so I don't want to discourage

32:32

people from seeing this film. But for me, uh,

32:34

uh, it's, you know, it,

32:36

I,

32:38

It's definitely worth watching. It will make you think, this

32:40

film would not have been made without

32:43

Trump, despite it being, you know, it's,

32:45

it's reflective of

32:47

the world over, you know, this is not specific to

32:50

America, even though it's an odd time

32:52

to go see it in a way.

32:54

I think it makes it's an important time to go say I

32:56

I do agree with you that this film absolutely wouldn't

32:59

exist without Trump, and I think that also

33:01

somehow again plays into this

33:03

muddied water because the fictional world

33:05

they've set it in, it's not clear which side

33:08

we're on, and I get that, but it's also

33:10

clear that it has, this film wouldn't have happened

33:12

without Trump, so it's clear that the president

33:14

in the White House is a Trump

33:16

esque president, so even though we're trying to say,

33:19

Ah, but it's not quite clearly one side.

33:21

There's clearly a side that the writer has taken.

33:23

And I think he's just tried to obfuscate

33:26

that a little bit.

33:27

I actually think his side isn't

33:29

it's not about being Democrat

33:32

or Republican. I think the whole film is

33:34

about not being polarized. And

33:36

therefore the film itself isn't polarized.

33:38

We're not entering into this conflict

33:41

clearly on one side or the other. I think

33:43

it's just meant to show, two things.

33:45

And that might be the problem that it was right, is it's actually not

33:48

very clear in its mission. Because on the one hand,

33:50

I think it's a film all about journalism

33:52

and the role of the press and, how clinical

33:55

and cold that needs to be. And the film reflects

33:57

that, but then also it's it's got this political

34:00

message going on, but the whole point they're trying

34:02

to do is not, it's not get political

34:05

and that is the message. But if you don't get political,

34:07

then you're not really getting into it. And then what's going

34:09

on. And then I thought the ending of it, just

34:11

to quickly finish on that note, without

34:13

giving any spoilers, you know,

34:16

You're really not rooting

34:19

for The good guys, even

34:21

at the end, you know, it's it

34:23

reminded me The film

34:26

kind of reminded me of Guantanamo Bay at the end

34:28

and that's not a spoiler I don't think like

34:30

it really isn't but it just like

34:32

it was like so so

34:34

cold And harsh and

34:37

you know, no one's coming out of this looking

34:39

good. And I think that is the whole point. But you're right.

34:41

It does. It does.

34:43

It perhaps that can feel a bit confused

34:46

at time or a little bit unclear. And I'm happy

34:48

with that. I liked the lack of clarity.

34:50

I like that the film was giving me things to think about

34:53

without being very clear But maybe,

34:55

yeah, maybe that could

34:58

for a lot of people, that could be a shortcoming sure.

35:01

I'm definitely very interested to see how this plays

35:03

out in the next couple of weeks. My feeling is it's

35:05

not going to be as controversial as perhaps we might

35:07

think in its being, I don't know. Let's see

35:09

how it plays out.

35:11

think we're at a point now, I

35:13

think, I don't think it's, I think the fact

35:15

that it doesn't take a strong position means

35:17

that it won't be that controversial. But, I

35:19

don't know if that's what people want from a big action

35:22

blockbuster. Maybe, well it's just the fact that so much money

35:24

was spent on the movie. If, if they'd had a smaller

35:27

budget for it, it might have been a bit safer. I

35:29

just don't know if they needed that big budget.

35:31

But I guess, To get a custom dunced.

35:35

but it was more than, you know, some of the action

35:37

set pieces, they are quite spectacular

35:39

when you, when you watch them, you're like, oh, wait, when the action

35:41

does kick in, it's pretty good.

35:43

that final, the scene is, the final scene

35:45

is really epic. People, I

35:47

felt, they wanted to be like, okay, cool. Now

35:50

we're getting going. There were a few amazing

35:52

set pieces.

35:53

Oh, yeah, yeah, there were some moments in it where

35:55

absolutely that's Alex Garland,

35:57

he's hit his stride in these sequence and the sound

35:59

design all the way through was excellent. I love that bit right

36:01

at the beginning with the static burst from the TV sets

36:03

going all around you and the A24 logo

36:05

came up. So, you know, lots I enjoyed,

36:08

but for me, I'll still go to the next

36:10

Alex Garland film, but this for me was a bit of a misstep,

36:12

but I'm looking forward to his next film, you know, because he is a

36:14

good director.

36:15

Yeah, totally. All right. Well,

36:18

shall we finish with a trip to

36:20

the film pharmacy?

36:22

Absolutely.

36:27

Okay, so we have a letter

36:29

that goes something like this. Dear Lily

36:31

and James, I experienced a

36:33

low point recently where I was washing

36:35

the shih tzu of a Russian oligarch

36:37

in a flooded shower in the dark. How

36:40

can I feel better? I

36:42

honestly, I don't know. Why

36:44

was it flooded and why was it dark? Anyway,

36:47

how can I feel better about working for

36:49

the man? Slash summon the courage

36:51

to ask them to change the light bulb. Okay,

36:56

That's why we're in the dark. The light bulb was out.

37:00

There we go. I mean, there's so many, there's enough question

37:02

I there's more questions than I can answer

37:05

with a film recommendation here

37:06

It's true. It's true.

37:08

but I've, of course, we've got stuff up our

37:10

sleeves, I'm sure. How about you, Lily? So what,

37:12

what do, what are you thinking, Lily? What's, what's your, film

37:15

prescription.

37:16

Okay. Well, my film prescription is

37:18

also a throw forward to our next episode

37:20

because

37:23

I don't know, cross promoter. Is it also

37:25

laziness that I didn't think of anything else? But it just, it just

37:27

comes to mind that I think it would suit. So

37:29

I think that Perfect Days is

37:32

a good film to make you feel

37:34

better about working for the man. Because this

37:37

is a film that we're going to be talking about next week, along

37:39

with Zone of Interest, which we also talked about earlier.

37:41

So guys, Ahead of

37:43

that, maybe you should watch both these movies.

37:45

I would strongly recommend, they're both fantastic.

37:48

And definitely perfect days

37:50

for reasons that we will explain in two weeks time.

37:53

I think it really does. It's a real balm

37:56

for anyone doing what could be considered

37:58

kind of, yeah, dog's body work.

38:00

Uh,

38:01

what I did there? Heh

38:02

I see what you did there Uh, so yeah,

38:05

I, I, I, uh, look, was thinking,

38:07

stretching my brain. And the one that dropped into my head

38:09

was idiocracy. Um,

38:11

I don't know if you've seen that. It's, uh, it

38:14

follows. Uh, a guy called Joe Bowers,

38:16

and he's a completely average American who

38:18

works for the U. S. military. He's just like, I would

38:20

say below average, but let's just say it's average intelligence.

38:23

And for that, for that exact reason,

38:25

for his average IQ, he's selected for

38:28

a military, experiment, which is, he's going to be

38:30

put into a cryogenic

38:32

hibernation, for, I think a hundred years,

38:34

but something goes wrong and he falls asleep 500

38:36

years, and he wakes up in an America of the

38:38

future. And it basically what's

38:40

happened is, um, that

38:43

dumbing down has occurred over the generations,

38:45

just slowly, and it shows you how the dumbing down

38:47

occurs and it shows you like little Vox

38:49

Pops of people over the decades and the years.

38:51

And so suddenly this completely average

38:54

American is now the

38:56

brainiest man on the planet. And

38:58

so it's a comedy following him as an

39:00

average man is now a superhero

39:02

in the world that he's woken up in. Yeah,

39:08

concept. It's almost like you wanted to come

39:10

up with something that was like the opposite of Civil War.

39:12

You're like, I want something that's like super

39:15

explained, super,

39:18

super full of, of the story, the

39:20

backstory, the future story.

39:23

and a comedy and a good laugh because I just

39:25

watched Civil War. I need to cheer up.

39:27

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Good. Perfect.

39:30

I think that's, that sounds amazing. Okay.

39:32

So how would that make this listener feel better

39:34

about working for the man?

39:36

yeah, it's, it's tangential

39:38

at best. I will be honest with you, but I

39:40

would say it's something along the lines of it could be

39:42

much worse.

39:44

Okay, I love that. Great. I think that works. Perfect.

39:47

All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening

39:49

to another episode of Groovy Movies.

39:52

Thank you as always. And if you could leave

39:54

us a like five star review, it all helps

39:56

get the podcast out to a wider audience.

39:58

So we'll see you in two weeks time. Bye guys!

40:01

Bye.