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You're listening to with me,

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Cariad Adloyd. Grievecast

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about the tequila human process of

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death and Griefcast

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I talked to a different person, about their

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1:59

Hey, greasers. Hope you're having an okay

2:01

week on this slightly chewy,

2:03

January as ever. Just

2:06

look, I know, it's nearly out and once it's out,

2:08

I can stop banging on about it perhaps. But

2:11

the book is out. You are not alone, nineteenth

2:13

of January. If you haven't pre ordered yet,

2:15

please do. It's everything I've learned from

2:17

the show. I'm really proud of it. I think it's a really

2:19

good book. That's my sales pitch.

2:21

I hope you like it. And preorders make

2:23

a huge, huge difference. So if you've ever

2:25

found the show useful or helpful or recommended

2:27

that someone this would mean an awful lot me if you

2:30

do a pre order. The book launch has

2:32

also moved. It's now on January the nineteenth

2:34

at Waterstone's in London.

2:36

So your base in London, please do come along. And

2:38

listen to me and Figlava talking about life,

2:40

death, grief, and everything in between.

2:43

This week, I'm so excited to speak to

2:45

such an amazing writer I

2:47

love talking to writers. I love talking to millions,

2:49

but yeah, she's a particularly interesting

2:52

person. Her name is Lisa Taddeo. She's

2:54

the author of the phenomenal three women,

2:56

also animal and ghost lover which came

2:58

out last year. You may have heard of

3:00

three women. It was absolutely everywhere.

3:02

It's an incredible incredible book.

3:04

She spent eight years talking to three women about

3:07

sex and desire and and

3:09

wrote it up and it, yeah, is extraordinary, really

3:11

extraordinary book. But I was really

3:13

great all because she's so busy. Lisa,

3:15

she's currently turning three women, I think,

3:17

yes, three women into a show.

3:20

But she spared some time to come and talk to me

3:22

about her parents. Peter, and

3:24

peer.

3:29

So, Lisa, who were you remembering

3:31

today? I

3:34

My mother. Mother. And what was

3:36

your mother's name? Pierre.

3:38

Pierre?

3:39

Oh, like PIA? Yes. Oh,

3:41

I love that though. Was she Pierre today? Or

3:43

is that your She was yeah. She was

3:45

Pierre today, but she started off as Pierre

3:47

Lombardi. Wow. This

3:50

is a very glamorous name. It

3:52

is a glamorous name. She's a poor.

3:55

But she had a glamorous name, and she was very

3:57

beautiful. So have those

3:59

two

3:59

things, but, yeah, she was very

4:02

poor.

4:02

So how did Pia Dai? What

4:04

happened? She had lung

4:07

cancer. Longer? And how many years

4:09

ago did she die? Two dozen eight.

4:11

Two dozen eight? Oh, okay. So you're sort of

4:13

you're past the ten years. Like, dad

4:15

is even longer My

4:18

dad was two thousand and three.

4:20

Wow. And if

4:23

they both I get embarrassed

4:25

at how long ago

4:28

it's been for for

4:31

what what I

4:33

still feel, which is

4:35

obviously not obviously, totally

4:37

is societal, you know --

4:39

Yes. -- that we kind of

4:41

do. I'll never

4:43

forget when my dad died

4:45

finding out that I had, like, three

4:47

days of bereavement. Like, bereavement was just,

4:49

like, three days. Like and

4:51

it didn't

4:52

matter, like, what level

4:54

of person. It was it

4:56

was at your job, so they just gave you three

4:58

days, breakeven. If your dad's dying --

5:00

Yeah. -- gotcha. And

5:02

it was, like, really an interesting feeling

5:05

because I was so young and I just it was

5:07

my first job out of college and

5:10

I remember thinking

5:12

how harsh it was. And and I mean,

5:14

I also knew at the same time that my

5:16

actual boss would have been

5:19

fine. Yeah. But I had said I

5:21

need more time, etcetera. Like, it

5:23

would have been fine. So it's not

5:25

like I felt strapped in that

5:28

way, and I was still living with my,

5:30

like, a move back into my mom. So, like, it

5:32

was fine, but I did

5:34

feel the pressure of oh,

5:37

if I had to keep working

5:40

and had to go in and did not

5:42

have the kind of benefit

5:44

of knowing that if I did need more

5:46

time or, you know, had

5:48

to stop completely that I would be supported

5:50

by my mother it was the first time I felt

5:52

that sort of unique feeling of,

5:56

oh, shoot. If you sometimes

5:59

you have to work even when

6:01

you are, like,

6:03

you know, dying in pain

6:06

And so that's something that I think

6:08

has really motivated me to want

6:10

to to be successful

6:13

because I'm really afraid

6:15

of having to like, I wanna be able to

6:17

just stop work at any time.

6:19

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, okay.

6:21

That's it. I don't have which is actually

6:23

quite, you know, not the

6:25

best idea because sometimes

6:27

having to work is exactly the thing that saves

6:29

you. But those are my

6:31

part. My long winded respond. No. No.

6:33

It's really interesting. And there's a campaign

6:36

here at the moment to increase agreement

6:38

leave and kind of like enshrine it a lot

6:40

and make it, you know, a thing. Because

6:42

I think it's pretty discretionary at the moment

6:44

depending on the job. And it

6:46

is this really strange thing of,

6:49

like, the measurement of, like, three

6:51

days. Yep. Three days a day to

6:53

Panafino. Day to have the funeral. Day to

6:55

cry back to work. It's like three

6:57

day, it felt like a parent is is

6:59

is a crazy number.

7:02

And to think someone would be

7:05

and it's funny, isn't it? I think it's really interesting what you

7:07

said of like. It's not like you kind of know or I

7:09

had asked or if I'd gone into my boss and

7:11

burst into tears, they were just to find, but it's the fact

7:13

that you're having to say, oh, by the way,

7:15

what you thought was enough wasn't enough? Like,

7:18

I have to call it. Be like, you know how normal

7:20

people have three days. I, this

7:22

drama queen here, my need more, like,

7:24

it's exactly putting that pressure on someone

7:26

to to say, oh, my grief is more than

7:28

this. Yeah. And that yeah.

7:30

Three days is nuts, isn't it? Absolutely

7:32

nuts. Why would anyone straight

7:35

days. I mean, dope also

7:37

dope your boss about length

7:39

of time because my dad died in nineteen

7:41

ninety eight. So I'm like a

7:43

pre preeminent. And here

7:45

I am still talking about it. So

7:47

as we say on the show, like, it's not linear.

7:49

Like, there's no a high

7:51

limit on these things. It's just you feel

7:53

what you feel and some days are better than others,

7:55

and that's that's it, really. Right. Or

7:57

your dad's name just because we didn't get that.

7:59

Peter. Peter. Peter. Peter.

8:02

What's this? That's a nice show.

8:04

I love it. It's characters for a book. So

8:06

were you what happened with because we've speak

8:08

about

8:08

PFS. What were your mom? Were you with

8:11

her? Like, was it a long was she

8:13

ill for very long time? No.

8:15

Not very long. It it went very fast

8:17

once we found out

8:19

once she was diagnosed, but I

8:21

think we caught it very late.

8:23

It had already metast size, and then it

8:25

was, like, six months or so.

8:28

Gosh. And, yes, I was with her

8:30

for all of it, taking her to the hospital

8:32

for chemo and

8:33

radiation, and caring for her at

8:35

home. It was really, really, really

8:37

hard.

8:38

Yeah. Was she someone who talked about

8:40

her illness? And express

8:43

her fears or anything like

8:44

that? When

8:45

my father died, she sort of

8:47

lost all will to

8:49

live, which is why I believe

8:51

she gave herself the

8:52

cancer. Yeah. I mean, it's

8:55

quite close, isn't it? So you lost him two

8:57

thousand three, did you say?

8:58

Yeah. And

8:58

two thousand yeah. That's so, yeah, five years

9:01

between a gosh. That has been hard for you.

9:03

Yes. It was. Yeah.

9:05

So Yeah.

9:08

So I she

9:10

she did talk about it, but not in,

9:13

like, she was

9:15

not I was in this

9:17

sort of, like, we can figure

9:19

this out and fix it,

9:21

and she was not interested

9:23

in that. Sort of

9:25

mindset. And

9:27

I was angry at her for not wanting

9:30

to to do that. Yeah.

9:32

But she didn't want it. And,

9:34

I mean, not that we didn't try, but we still

9:36

tried, but felt like she declined

9:39

you know, cheap, but

9:40

it was, you know, it was all like,

9:42

when you're, like, there's something uniquely

9:44

weird about wanting

9:46

someone to live who doesn't want to live themselves

9:49

and, like and then being angry

9:51

at them for not caring more

9:53

about being there for you

9:55

So Yeah.

9:59

It's

9:59

really call it us,

10:01

like, this the last

10:03

chapter in a parent child relationship,

10:05

isn't it? Because it's like you're something, you're

10:07

beeping. Like, I'm still like,

10:09

I'm so the child in this person's like,

10:12

well, I'm I'm almost an acceptance

10:14

there from her point of view. Isn't it, like, I

10:16

know I'm not gonna be around. I know

10:18

this is what's happening and it's yeah,

10:20

it's really hard. I said on the show before, like,

10:22

my dad was very young when he died, but he

10:24

just refused to talk about it because

10:26

he was in complete denial. He

10:28

was, I'm gonna be fine. We were like, we're

10:31

not gonna be fine and

10:33

cancer as well. And

10:36

it's a real that

10:38

anger you feel, and I've talked

10:40

about a lot of my anger. I mean, I was

10:42

furious at him for dying. Just furious. Just how

10:44

fucking dare you? Like, what is wrong with you?

10:46

Like, I just And it's such an alright. You

10:48

said it's so rational, but it doesn't

10:50

it doesn't dim it in

10:52

any way. Like, it it's just

10:54

like such a primal

10:57

fury at someone that they would do

10:59

this to you. Like, as

11:01

if they had any choice. How did you deal

11:03

I don't wanna jump ahead. Like

11:06

yeah. How how what I'm gonna do? How did

11:08

you deal with the anger? With,

11:10

I guess, with when she was

11:11

ill. It was about what was I guess,

11:14

at that point, I'd expended so much

11:16

of my feelings about

11:18

my dad that by

11:21

that point even though I wanted her

11:23

to want to

11:25

live, I also was so

11:27

exhausted with feeling the

11:29

grief

11:29

that, like, there was something

11:31

that made it easier with

11:35

her that even though she

11:36

was when my dad was like, you know,

11:39

it's weird. It's like I can't I

11:41

I don't I don't I didn't love one more than

11:43

the other. They were equally you

11:46

know, important and important

11:48

to me in different ways. And she was important

11:51

in a way that, you know,

11:53

was very I mean, just

11:55

super primal for me. And

11:57

I think that if I had I think

12:00

I think if I had lost her first, it

12:02

would have been hard And

12:04

that's because I'd gone through my dad

12:06

already. It was kind of, like, I

12:08

was more ready for

12:10

it, I guess. And I was

12:12

exhausted by

12:13

it. Mhmm. And anger was almost

12:15

more at exhaustion than

12:18

rage.

12:19

Yeah. Like this again. Like

12:24

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, again,

12:26

really. I have to like, just the idea

12:28

of sometimes I I only have

12:30

one kid and even

12:32

though part of me would like another

12:34

the idea of doing all this sort of

12:36

really boring, annoying thing all

12:38

over again is always what stops. I'm

12:40

like, oh, god. That

12:43

whole period doing that whole, like,

12:45

sleepless nights again. Like, it's

12:47

like if I'm not

12:49

gonna alert I mean, of course, this is

12:51

wrong and incorrect. And, of course, I would

12:53

learn many new things because it would be a new

12:55

person and then new it's experience.

12:57

But I'm like, what am I gonna learn?

12:59

Anything new from that? I don't know

13:01

how I fell with the

13:01

death. I was just like, I have nothing is

13:04

happening here except for more pain. Yeah.

13:06

I remember my so

13:09

my husband has lost both his sorry.

13:12

His parents have died. And he lost

13:14

his dad in his

13:16

mid twenties, and I was kinda like, I

13:18

got this dead dad's, I got No

13:20

props. And then when his mom was

13:22

sick, I remember that when

13:24

he told me, I,

13:26

like, physically ran away from him.

13:28

I ran upstairs, and I fell,

13:30

like, I fell to the floor crying

13:32

because I'm a big stream. And

13:34

he tried to comfort me in, like, as if I was

13:37

upset, but it was because I knew we had to

13:39

do it again. And I just felt this

13:41

feeling of, like, I like,

13:43

because she was sick and we just felt the news base,

13:45

it's not, you know, there's nothing it's cancer,

13:47

you know, Yeah. Bad news. Nothing we can

13:49

do. And I just felt like complete your

13:51

late time. I felt like being of

13:52

like, you know, you're in a board game. And I said someone just

13:54

picked you up and put you back to being, you're

13:55

like, no. Like, I

13:59

I've done it. Like, this isn't I want It's

14:01

not fair. You just want to And

14:04

I I couldn't say it to him because, obviously, he was

14:06

in the place where he was, like, not

14:09

not even thinking about

14:10

that. You know, the end yet, he was

14:12

just dealing with the day today. How

14:14

do you deal with the Ipswich fare?

14:17

Yeah.

14:18

I think it's

14:21

such a cliche. And I think it's

14:23

the incorrectly, so I think it's

14:25

time, but I don't mean time he

14:27

has and everything gets

14:28

better. I think

14:29

just It's a bomb blast,

14:31

a death, and you keep walking

14:33

further further away and then you can just

14:35

see a bit more and you can

14:37

just kinda take in a bit more and be

14:39

like, oh, okay.

14:41

Yeah. It's not fair, but also

14:44

this thing they had that life

14:46

and I knew I loved them and they I

14:48

knew that they love me and you walk a bit

14:50

further, you're like, oh, other people don't get that.

14:52

So they although I

14:54

feel like it's not fair. They also

14:56

have that I've got this and you

14:58

keep walking

14:59

back, but it takes I mean, you know, I'm

15:01

twenty plus years and I'm I feel

15:03

like I just got to the point

15:05

where I'm like Yeah.

15:08

Okay. That happened. I

15:10

wish, you know, like you said, I I

15:12

wish it was simpler

15:13

and better and easier, and that

15:15

I could say, oh,

15:18

hey. I did that before you, and

15:20

and now I'm fine. Like, but

15:22

there just isn't there just

15:24

isn't a simple situation. And I can

15:26

pair a lot to birth in that, you

15:28

know, you have a kid and it's not, like, after a

15:30

year, you're just great at doing it.

15:32

Just, like, every day is a new child,

15:34

a new, like,

15:36

And I have got two, and I will tell you, I

15:38

agree with it. It's still boring with

15:40

that second time around. Like,

15:43

oh, no. No. We're

15:45

just our potty training again.

15:47

We did it once. Can't the other one

15:49

teach the other

15:49

one. So I think

15:51

it's a mixture of therapy in time is

15:53

what I found, but

15:56

it is hard. It is really, really

15:58

hard. And I

16:00

think the loss of both parents is a

16:02

really different situation. I know Mark from

16:04

my husband and my mom

16:06

lost her mom and dad like, within two

16:08

weeks of each other. Similar, like, my mom

16:10

my granny was like, I'm I'm not living.

16:13

Goodbye. And she was

16:15

like, it's really a really different feeling

16:17

because you really are alone in the world.

16:19

That's a very, you know, there's no

16:21

backup. There's no net anymore. It's

16:23

just you. remember my husband

16:25

saying it's really freeing because part b is like,

16:27

wow, I've got no one no

16:29

approval I need to worry about. Yeah.

16:31

But also, I've got no one to go, hey,

16:33

guess what? And,

16:35

yeah, it's me too. How, I

16:36

mean, how have you how

16:39

have you felt like you've dealt with it? It's not fair, or

16:41

is it just you're still going? Oh,

16:43

you know, I've turned so much

16:46

of it into fear

16:49

of it happening again. Yes.

16:52

Definitely. Yeah. So

16:54

that's really that's

16:56

what I need

16:58

to work through more.

17:02

I'm very I'm

17:04

I'm very the idea of doing it

17:06

again is just, like, on like, I'm just

17:08

like, no. I won't. Like

17:10

-- Yeah. -- I won't do it. But

17:13

that's obviously not how it works. And I don't

17:16

want to live in a world

17:18

where it's a

17:20

possibility. And, like

17:22

and I think and and it it's why

17:24

the lack of a stepped in. Mhmm. Not

17:26

so much of what happened with my parents

17:28

even though that's definitely part of it. But

17:30

if it of that

17:33

just being Not

17:35

even the it's not fair, but

17:38

the, you know, just the it's

17:40

just fair just the fear of it. It's just

17:43

too It's just too because it's

17:45

too big of a deal.

17:46

Yeah. Yeah.

17:48

Yeah. We we call it on the shade death

17:51

anxiety, and you know, once you've been

17:53

through it. I

17:55

don't know anyone I don't know anyone who

17:56

after, you know,

17:57

having your

17:57

parent die or someone by the place they're filming

18:00

is cool with Yes.

18:01

Like, I think because it is like that thing

18:03

is like we got our hands burnt and so

18:05

you're like, don't don't bring the fire

18:07

near me. Like fuck you.

18:10

And it's yeah. It's really

18:13

I don't know if you have this. III

18:15

wrestle with it, but, like, especially with my kids,

18:17

you know, like, It's like, well, now there's

18:19

something really precious. It's like, oh, for God's sake.

18:22

Like, what have I done?

18:24

Like, making yourself vulnerable to

18:26

these things? And I've

18:28

I've got better at catching it

18:30

definitely. But for years, it was just

18:33

like, no, be on guard

18:35

at all times because

18:36

Yeah. My dad got diagnosed in the February

18:39

and he was dead by April. So my brain

18:41

just went, okay,

18:43

moment someone's got a

18:44

they're gonna die. Like, that's that's

18:45

true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's we

18:47

don't want to break out that.

18:49

Yeah. How long was your

18:52

mom sick for then? Do you say sorry.

18:54

Do you it was about six months? Or Yes.

18:56

Six months. Six

18:56

months. And were you with her at, like, the

18:59

very end? Yes.

19:01

Through all of it. Yes.

19:05

I was there every day.

19:07

And I mean, it was yeah.

19:09

It was a lot. It was just And

19:11

and that's the other thing is, like, the

19:14

the being with

19:18

the the sort of waiting around for

19:20

it to Mhmm. And

19:24

the knowing that, like, we're

19:26

all marked. Right? As it

19:28

but having that sort of that

19:30

extra marker put on just

19:33

feels very

19:34

I don't know. It's

19:37

just difficult. Did you

19:40

were you with her at the, you

19:42

know, when she died?

19:44

Were you did you have a moment or

19:46

anything? Like, we always talk on a show that there is no

19:48

moment. But Yeah. I

19:52

towards, like, the last hour, whatever

19:55

I put her,

19:57

like, hand over my

19:59

head

19:59

to so

20:00

that I could just feel it one more

20:03

time.

20:03

That's such

20:05

a beautiful thing to do. I

20:08

had to, like, physically, you

20:11

know, even later, which felt

20:13

also very

20:14

weird. Yeah. It's

20:17

that it's that thing. Isn't it at the end? The way the

20:19

things you need but again, it's that attention of the

20:21

things you need and the things they

20:23

can

20:23

do. Sure she wouldn't have minded. She's

20:25

like, oh, no. I don't I don't

20:27

think so. Yeah. But,

20:30

yes, it's still a

20:31

weird. It's a weird thing. Yeah.

20:33

I don't I think, David, it's weird. I think

20:35

it's like that we don't talk about it, you know,

20:37

that we don't talk about. I

20:39

needed to feel my mom

20:41

my mom's touched one more time, so I

20:43

did this. And and to no

20:45

one I don't think anyone would actually judge you

20:48

for it. I think everyone would be like,

20:50

I understand, I can empathize with that, but it's when you're

20:52

doing these things. You feel sort of silly, don't you?

20:54

Like, what am I doing? But

20:56

part of you still drive yourself

20:59

into, like, I need to do this. So I'm glad

21:01

that you did it because my

21:04

my heartbreaking things when I talk to people who

21:06

said, I wanted to. And I didn't. I

21:08

felt sippy and I didn't. And that always to me

21:10

is like, well, who would have known? Who would

21:13

have known? Nurses have seemed much

21:14

worse. Like -- Oh, okay. --

21:17

much stranger. So did

21:19

you have to organize all the funeral and stuff

21:21

by yourself? Is that like and

21:23

had a brother I have a

21:26

brother. He's fourteen years older. So he he had a

21:28

full family -- Mhmm. --

21:30

by the time. His wife

21:32

did a lot of the

21:35

organizing of things for

21:37

us. But yeah.

21:39

I mean, I dragged my feet on literally

21:42

every single part of getting everything

21:44

that made it more real.

21:47

Yeah. I

21:49

I tried to stop. Or

21:52

at least delay. And I

21:54

think I still I still kind of

21:56

do that. I still feel like

21:58

I still don't really accept

22:01

it. In a sense. And so I

22:03

mean, I do. I accept it, obviously, but I just

22:05

put, like, I just putting

22:07

energy into the memorialization

22:12

of something that I that

22:14

really just ruined my life is

22:16

something I'm not interested in doing.

22:19

So I'm

22:21

like and and my brother is completely the opposite.

22:23

He has, like, his entire house

22:25

is basically a

22:28

museum to our parents.

22:31

Like, it's a shrine, including

22:33

the license plate from my father's

22:35

car accident hanging Wow.

22:38

The ceiling like a

22:40

like a like a

22:43

decoration, like a chandelier. Was

22:47

crazy. But he

22:49

sees it in a different

22:50

way. And, like, for him, it's

22:53

like like, curation of

22:56

memories.

22:56

Mhmm. And I I want to be

22:58

able to do that, but I I'm just I'm

23:01

kind of, like, I tried I

23:03

tried to move away from it

23:04

or. Mhmm. I think siblings

23:07

is, like, the most fascinating

23:09

thing because, you know, I do

23:11

a podcast about it. My brother is always saying to

23:13

me, I've got older brother as well. He's always like, I

23:15

don't know why you like,

23:17

he's like, I just feel I don't need to talk about

23:19

it. It's just like it's not like,

23:21

okay. It's just fine. And

23:23

I always find it really interesting how

23:25

Yeah. How different, you know, grief

23:28

manifests in in the same. But as

23:30

we said, like, you're you are a

23:32

different parent to different to different

23:33

children, you know, your different ages, all of this stuff. It's

23:35

it makes it lots

23:38

of

23:38

reasons of why you would react differently.

23:40

But Yeah. It's

23:42

again, I interviewed the Mac

23:45

twins. So twins, you know,

23:47

like, pretty similar upbringing

23:50

and they on the episode, they talked about

23:52

how differently they both agreed. Like, one

23:54

of them just shut down. She was like

23:56

playing Candy Crush for six months didn't speak to her

23:58

on. The other one, like, organize sort of

24:00

thing. And and they were saying, like, they

24:02

had this amazing conversation. They were like, they

24:04

found it really hard to understand what the other

24:06

one's doing and of be like Why

24:08

aren't you stepping

24:08

up? Why aren't you, you know? And it's just I

24:11

found that really interesting because I was like, oh, even

24:12

twins. Like,

24:14

even pretty much the

24:17

same up thinking. And it's just,

24:18

you know,

24:19

grief is it's

24:20

not like a pair of shoes. You can

24:23

everyone tries on and it's like,

24:25

oh, like, This will all be fine. Side five

24:27

will be fine. It's it's

24:29

really an individual experience. So

24:32

is that how your dad died? That passed away, was

24:34

it in a car accident? God.

24:36

That's a really

24:38

shocking thing to experience because

24:42

of see. So it's as sudden and brutal is that

24:44

did you

24:44

just get a

24:45

phone call? Is it was it that kind

24:48

of situation?

24:49

Yeah, phone call. He didn't pass away in

24:51

the in that moment. He he went

24:53

to the hospital, and he lived

24:56

for eight days, but never

24:58

cognizant. And it was,

25:00

like, a very every day,

25:02

it was, like, touch and go. I

25:04

see you. So it was, like, eight

25:06

days of, like, panic

25:08

and just an unthinkable thing

25:11

that had somehow just

25:14

happened. And,

25:16

you know, he was a doctor so that we had to,

25:18

like, sell his practice while

25:21

he was in the hospital because

25:24

Oh, god. It's own

25:26

like, if there are just, like,

25:28

just there were things we had to do

25:30

in order to, like, save the business and

25:32

that's what it's like. And it was

25:34

just this it was just everything was

25:36

just the most sudden awful thing

25:38

where, like, our entire lives changed

25:41

in in a matter of

25:43

hours really. And yeah,

25:45

I had to remember the driving

25:47

to the hospital to go

25:50

and see him and just

25:52

knowing because he had not

25:54

contacted me that he was not going

25:56

to be

25:58

Okay. You know,

25:59

it's like, now I know that.

26:02

It's no wonder to me that

26:04

you have death anxiety. Like,

26:06

when you experience something as shocking

26:09

and sudden as that. I mean, like,

26:11

you know, a cancer is sudden, but

26:13

It's it's slow. It's not a phone call. You know, it's a

26:15

series. Like, you know with your mom with, like, meetings

26:17

and chats and then very slowly. You're like,

26:19

oh, this person's dying. Whereas,

26:23

yeah, interesting this episode. I was just talking about the MaxWinds,

26:25

their dad died of a heart attack, and they just got

26:27

a phone call. And I think that's

26:30

you

26:30

know, there's no, obviously, there's no good or bad.

26:32

No one wins in this competition, but

26:35

getting just the phone call

26:37

is you're dealing with

26:38

shock. For so long. And I

26:41

felt like I was genuinely shocked for about

26:43

eighteen years. Like, I honestly and

26:45

that's from a cancer death. Like,

26:47

I just feel like like you said earlier, which I think

26:49

I wanted to go, oh, yeah, I feel the

26:51

same.

26:51

Like, I knew he

26:54

was dead.

26:55

Someone had said, he's

26:57

come back.

26:57

I would have been like, alright. Yeah. Like,

26:59

it's that knowing and not knowing it was

27:01

saying, like, sort of refusing to accept it. She said,

27:04

when you kind of pushing over here

27:06

into blinker area. So you can kind of

27:08

live your life. You can see ahead of you. But over

27:10

here, there's this fuzzy somebody

27:13

maybe died, but If we don't look too

27:14

closely, maybe it's all far. Like, because I think

27:17

that's kind of shock. Like, your

27:19

body goes into this

27:22

a way to protect you. And I think that's definitely what happened

27:24

to me when my body was like, just

27:26

don't think about it. It's just not possible

27:28

for your brain to take that.

27:30

And especially, like you said, if you don't have to sell and all that, like,

27:33

it is, like, someone flipping your world

27:35

out completely overnight.

27:38

So I can imagine by the time, yeah, you know, like

27:41

you said that your mom was ill, you were very

27:43

done with this. Like,

27:46

oh, life, like life coming along

27:48

and giving you phone calls and

27:50

lessons and so

27:52

yeah. My God, your brother has the heart number

27:54

plate. That's really interesting, isn't it

27:56

what Mhmm. Help people

27:58

process things. And again, there's no right or wrong

28:00

as I completely understand, but

28:02

there's a ownership of having it

28:05

remembering it and honoring it and there's another

28:07

ownership of being like, no, thank

28:09

you.

28:16

Welcome back

28:16

to with Kerry Cariad. Do

28:18

you

28:19

find it hard to look at pictures of

28:21

them now, are you like, when you said the

28:23

shrine, do you is your house kind of like,

28:25

are you not putting pictures up with them?

28:27

And

28:28

I just you know, I yes

28:31

and no. I go through phases where I like

28:33

having pictures around and then other phases

28:35

where I I can't deal

28:37

with it. Mhmm. So,

28:39

yes, I I right now, I'm in

28:41

a sort of I'm not mainly

28:43

because I'm also changing around my

28:46

office and stuff, so I just don't

28:48

have. But I do I have my own

28:50

little shrine objects that I

28:52

will put back, you know, into

28:54

their rifle. I actually look forward

28:56

to having a space

28:59

to put things you know, to just

29:01

change the way that I've been

29:03

and to make it more. It's

29:05

just that we've moved so much and I moved

29:07

so much with three women and all that

29:10

that that it was more

29:11

it was harder to kind of put

29:14

it's harder to put those sorts of

29:16

roots down when you're

29:18

moving around. So did you start

29:21

writing for women after all this

29:23

had happened? Yes. I mean,

29:25

I definitely not, but I wouldn't have been able to

29:27

write a book about the text with my parents. So

29:29

I definitely think so

29:32

with your husband saying something

29:34

about it being

29:35

free there is the freeing aspect of it. It's the

29:38

only thing that you can really, you

29:39

know, look

29:40

at with a sense of, like,

29:43

gratitude. Yeah. Yeah.

29:44

There's a there's a freedom from ever

29:47

having to have that fear

29:49

again. Like, if the worst thing has

29:51

happened, the worst thing and

29:53

that will happen. So

29:55

that's it. You don't need to think about it

29:57

anymore. Yeah.

29:57

And that's the thing with the with the

30:00

death anxiety. Isn't it? It's like, I'm over to you,

30:02

well, at least he's not on my list. Like, I don't have

30:04

to worry about him dying. It's done. So

30:06

the list is one person smaller.

30:09

Few.

30:09

Yeah. I mean, if, yeah, if anyone hasn't read

30:12

your amazing book three women, it's it's

30:14

interesting to me because it is

30:16

such

30:16

a or consuming thing that you went

30:18

through and moving, like you said, moving around so

30:20

much that, like, yeah, after after

30:22

grief then or in grief.

30:25

In grief, you can disappear

30:27

into that situation and just

30:30

disappear. Because I remember reading

30:32

about, like, yeah, how you did it and how long

30:34

you were talking to people, I'm thinking,

30:36

oh my god. Like, this is Wow.

30:38

Like, what a huge, huge thing to

30:41

do? And do you feel like

30:43

it was not motivated

30:45

by grief, but do you feel like partly

30:47

grief it was grief was fueling

30:49

some part of that journey?

30:51

Yes. Definitely. I

30:54

think that it

30:56

was one of the reasons that people

30:58

were open to talking to

31:00

me. It was

31:03

fueling my desire

31:05

to make other people feel less alone.

31:06

Mhmm. So that's like,

31:09

I it just felt easier to concentrate

31:11

on other people. I didn't

31:13

wanna look at

31:14

myself. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate

31:17

to that a lot. The

31:21

catchphrase for the show was you are

31:23

not alone. And that's like all I ever

31:25

wanted to do was because I

31:27

felt so alone. Yeah.

31:30

And then It's that funny thing is that,

31:32

like, some people will say to me, oh, like, it's you

31:34

know, when you say you are not owning so

31:36

nice and you feel like so useful

31:39

and grief makes you feel so

31:41

used

31:41

this. And it's such a nice feeling. But

31:43

at the same time, there's like one percent of it, she's

31:45

just like, I didn't have

31:46

anyone. I

31:47

wish I'd had a podcast

31:50

that would've good to listen to. But

31:52

obviously, you're I'm you know, it's not it

31:54

really I mean, there it's just like a

31:56

this is really an amazing resource

31:58

to have. I I wish I'd had

32:01

desk too. You know, I think

32:03

it's like it's it's really

32:05

hard in our

32:07

culture, you know, definitely

32:09

the US. I mean, I I don't know

32:11

exactly how the UK

32:13

is different, but I assume it's not too

32:15

different, but it's really aren't a

32:17

lot of resources. They're not even defined.

32:20

And you kinda

32:22

have to, like I don't know. You have to wait through

32:24

a lot of stuff to, like, find

32:26

big I find. Yeah. Or you

32:28

have to. It's a lot better now.

32:30

Yeah. It's a lot better, and

32:32

there's a lot more stuff available. And I mean, obviously,

32:34

as you know, so I was like, pre internet when

32:36

my dad died. So, like, there was

32:38

not you know, I had one girl

32:40

in my school year that had her

32:43

dad had died. And, like, so we knew

32:45

each other. Feel like other than that, you

32:47

just had no idea that this has

32:49

happened to anyone else. And I think

32:51

sometimes you can feel like what's happened to you is

32:53

really weird. Like, I thought for years, it was very strange

32:55

that he had died very, like, strange

32:57

thing had happened to us. And then, actually,

32:59

when I read us statistics

33:01

of the type of cancer he had. I was like, oh, it's like

33:03

one of the fifth most common cancers in

33:05

in the UK. Like, why? But again,

33:07

because people just don't you know, weren't talking

33:09

about death or cancer. It was all hidden up.

33:11

And it it is so much better. I mean,

33:14

as ever, we've got a long way

33:16

to go. Did you

33:18

seek

33:18

therapy? I just think he saw you moving around.

33:21

It's kind of hard to do that as well.

33:23

Like, I did. I that's

33:25

exactly right. I I thought I

33:27

I would see a different therapist every

33:29

time I moved -- Okay. --

33:31

for the first couple of weeks that I

33:34

had move to a new place, I would continue

33:36

speaking to the former

33:39

therapist on the phone if they

33:41

were you know, from a different

33:43

-- Yeah. -- town or or state.

33:45

But to be perfectly honest,

33:47

I never found somebody,

33:50

like, really really great.

33:53

Mhmm. None of the people were good

33:55

enough for me to kind of to

33:57

continue calling, which is why I didn't mind finding

34:00

new people in a place

34:02

that I went. Therapy, it

34:05

never really helped me.

34:07

And I don't think that's because therapy can't help.

34:09

I think it's because I've found

34:12

the right combination

34:14

of therapists and sort

34:16

of type of therapy. I also

34:19

part of what I developed part of

34:21

what I had and then also developed more of after my

34:24

parents' deaths was OCD.

34:26

And a lot of the OCD is,

34:30

kind of related to hypochondria or fearing, you know,

34:32

that sort of death anxiety that you were talking.

34:34

But for me, it manifests

34:37

in OCD and sort of

34:39

like the looping thoughts of

34:42

it. So, you know,

34:44

I've I've kind of

34:46

more recently found out that I have OCD, and that's

34:48

how it manifests for

34:50

me. So I I

34:52

don't know.

34:53

I I have not I

34:55

know there's exposure therapy and stuff

34:57

like that.

35:01

I don't I'm kind of I guess, and

35:03

this is gonna be a, you know, very silly

35:05

thing to say, but I'm

35:07

so busy work

35:10

wise that opening

35:12

the can of worms, like dismantling

35:14

the sort of patch

35:17

together, you know, person

35:20

that I've made myself into is

35:22

and I'm having a child that I

35:24

have to sort of consider. I

35:27

don't when I was after my I lost my

35:29

parents when I was single and I and

35:32

and and not a parent, I, like,

35:34

did yoga, like, twice

35:36

day. I walked all around men hot, and I had

35:38

I took care of my

35:40

grief, you know, and I am and

35:43

that, you know, it still took me a long time and

35:45

I still didn't fully get over it,

35:47

but I I was

35:50

doing or trying

35:52

to live. And I don't

35:54

have the the benefit

35:56

of that sort of time anymore.

35:59

And I do remember from that time

36:01

that opening myself up in that way

36:03

and trying to, like, heal was

36:06

incredibly disruptive. And if and

36:08

that's one of the reasons why, you know, having had

36:10

money from selling my parents' house

36:12

and having the ability to

36:15

stay afloat without without

36:18

being too desperate about

36:20

it made me able

36:22

to survive in a way that I always

36:24

think

36:25

about, like, you know, how

36:26

awful it

36:27

is for people who did not have the luck

36:29

that I had had.

36:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's that

36:34

weird thing, isn't it? Like, there's a joke

36:36

here of, like, if someone buys a house in

36:37

London, it's like, oh, well, their parents Richard did their

36:40

parents die. Like,

36:41

It's like, that's surely

36:44

how you can afford it. And that

36:46

weirdness about, yeah, like, that

36:48

lifeline that your your parents can still

36:50

throw you

36:51

which, you know, obviously,

36:53

is reflective dependent on

36:56

your their privilege and your

36:58

privilege and all of those things that that come

37:00

before

37:00

us. Do you think this is just asking someone

37:02

who also likes to fill their

37:04

time a lot? Do you think,

37:06

like, there's a part of you that is, like,

37:09

keeping the work going so the box

37:11

stays closed. Like, is there a part that's

37:13

like, if I keep going, then I don't notice

37:15

the box because I'm so

37:18

busy.

37:18

Yeah. Maybe I think I think but I think it's

37:20

more towards, like, let me

37:24

let me do

37:26

as much as I can

37:28

and, you know,

37:30

get sort of as stable

37:33

as possible before the inevitable shoe drops. And I

37:35

have to just spend all of

37:37

my earned resources

37:40

on you know, figuring

37:42

out how to save this perceived life for

37:44

Viator. I don't know. I

37:48

That's

37:49

it's all I think about. It's not, like, everything I do is

37:51

motivated by that fear. Yeah.

37:53

I when you were

37:55

saying about obviously, I can

37:57

yeah. For an IT, the looping thoughts and

37:59

the OCD. And my

38:02

cousin both my husband and I both

38:04

lost parents to

38:05

cancer. So, like, my friend was really shocked.

38:06

I thought there's just no more till I told my

38:09

friend, like, anything. Anything. A creek,

38:11

a bump. We're like, think

38:13

it's cancer. And she was like, it would never occur to me.

38:15

I was like, is it I said, wow. Is it not

38:17

the first thing you think? And her parents,

38:20

she had quite I mean, it was fine, but the

38:22

parents got divorced. She was like, anything

38:24

that happens, I think, we're gonna get divorced. And I was like, oh,

38:26

never occurs to me. Never doesn't

38:28

I was like, I'm just on cancer watch

38:30

all the

38:30

time. And then we drive each other crazy because we both

38:33

lost parents to cancer. They were like, yeah, it could be, couldn't

38:35

it? I don't know. Go to it. I think she goes to

38:37

the doctor. And we we have kind of talk each

38:39

other down because it's like, our learned experience is this very weird, you know, he both

38:41

his parents side of cancer. My dad does three

38:43

out four. They're like,

38:46

oh, guys.

38:47

The statistics sound great, guys. So

38:49

it's it's hard not to go

38:52

down there. And I remember, I've

38:54

I've eventually found a therapist who I

38:56

yeah. Was really great. And

38:58

if it took a long, long, long, long, long

39:00

time. And I remember her saying to me

39:02

once, you know, not everyone dies of cancer. And

39:04

I was like, yeah. But Somebody did. Like, somebody

39:06

did. It's just like, yes, but think of

39:08

people who haven't. I was like, give it to

39:11

one this one

39:13

time, it's like, you know, it's like saying, oh, you know, not all chillis

39:15

are hot. You're like, yeah, but the one I burnt

39:18

my mouth, so I'm not gonna eat them

39:19

again. And to be fair, not all chillis are

39:22

sweet Taddeo chips.

39:24

And that right. But that's the thing. It's like when I would find

39:26

someone who said something like that, I

39:28

would just be like, this person hasn't

39:32

there was just a people

39:34

who have not lost people and -- Yeah. --

39:36

were there people who have lost people and

39:38

don't have that same fear. Yeah.

39:41

Which is fine and great for them,

39:43

but I have a hard time

39:45

understanding how they can

39:48

understand me. Having

39:50

not suffered it in

39:52

a

39:53

sense. No. And

39:54

you know, I know that that's not exactly

39:58

fair but that's something I do

40:00

think. You

40:00

know, I do feel

40:04

like it's it's it it's

40:05

almost like something I would probably

40:08

look for in a future therapist.

40:10

Mhmm. Just the lived

40:12

experience

40:13

of it. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely

40:15

when I would try people, like

40:18

dating, if I

40:20

sensed for

40:20

a second that they didn't get

40:24

it. The word in the clap. I found it impossible.

40:26

Like And I still I

40:28

still find it hard and I

40:31

would still

40:32

say, I don't

40:33

know in the cloud. Like, they don't get it. when I'm talking about something

40:35

and because you know, as soon as somebody's in

40:37

when you're talking about

40:40

your

40:40

feelings, and they get it. It's just a

40:42

different it's just such a different experience.

40:44

And my the

40:45

therapist I found you was

40:48

great. Like, She's like a professional

40:50

therapist, so she, like, never revealed anything about

40:53

herself. But I think she was she

40:55

I could

40:55

talk. She's in a plump. She's in a plump.

40:57

She got it. And then also what I liked, because

41:00

I know

41:00

what you mean, is I could tell that she

41:02

hadn't had the thoughts that I had, but

41:04

she took them very seriously. And

41:07

that's the first time I'd had that as someone being like,

41:09

yeah, that makes sense. This awful thing happened.

41:12

It was awful. Because I'd spent so many

41:14

years diminishing of, like, I was years

41:16

ago and Everybody did. People did add cancer. It was the big deal. Why am I so

41:18

upset? And she just kept

41:20

saying, no, it that sounds really

41:22

awful. I

41:24

kept thinking. Oh, it's nice to have someone just agree with

41:26

the feelings because you're arguing with

41:28

the feelings all the time. And that's exhausting. It's

41:30

such a tiring place to be.

41:34

We're fine,

41:38

guys. We wanna know, hashtag, we're all we're

41:40

fine. It's just

41:42

it's tiring. How

41:44

do you feel now about, like, the anniversaries?

41:46

Do you notice them or

41:48

mark them?

41:49

Or I do. I notice

41:51

them. III noticed

41:53

them and I feel my brother will

41:56

always say something

41:57

also, so even if I wasn't sort

41:59

of I noticed them I

42:01

tried to not They're

42:02

not as bad. They used to be really awful.

42:04

I used to, like, read the entire month

42:07

of September, which is a

42:10

favorite month. I used to dread it because

42:12

it was when my father died. I I

42:14

didn't have as much pain

42:16

around the birthday as the

42:18

death day. That for me

42:20

became very or not even

42:22

the death date, but the accident date because that

42:24

was really the day that my world was

42:26

completely --

42:26

Yeah. -- you know, like, that

42:30

sort of the phone call of it is really

42:32

the

42:34

you know, and and I also I was

42:37

also primed have a sort of

42:39

phone call issue. Because

42:42

when my

42:44

mom my dad had diabetes. And when we found

42:46

out he had diabetes, it was like,

42:48

he called my mom and told her

42:50

on the phone, and she was very, like,

42:53

dramatic about it. And, like, sort

42:55

of, like, clutch the table,

42:57

like and it it

43:00

was it was what was bad

43:02

about it was that you know, my

43:04

dad had a history of of heart

43:06

disease in his family, etcetera.

43:08

And the diabetes thing was But

43:10

but in and of itself,

43:12

it wasn't cancer. You know, it wasn't like awful

43:14

stuff. And so but

43:16

my mom tweeted it as though

43:18

it were. And,

43:20

I mean, her and partly because she

43:22

didn't have a lot of medical understanding

43:24

in the word to her

43:26

being from a different country diabetes. it's a it's

43:29

a terrible word. I I think

43:31

watching her reaction to

43:33

it was very like,

43:36

oh, this is so something's

43:38

bad. Mhmm. But it was also that

43:40

my father who was somebody who

43:42

was utterly the rock

43:44

in our family was penetrable

43:47

or porous was the

43:49

thing that kind of was

43:52

debilitating. And I then I think that

43:54

sort of second phone it just kind of like,

43:56

I lived my life in between those two

43:58

phone calls in a sense. And

44:01

and then the second one came and I was like vindicated and I

44:04

was right. And so

44:06

I also

44:08

go through life with a

44:10

certain amount of, like, I

44:12

can see the future. You

44:14

know, I am I

44:16

I know things that other people don't know

44:18

and everybody should list me if I'm

44:20

afraid that we should all stay home for a

44:22

full two

44:23

weeks. Yeah. Yep.

44:25

Yep. I

44:26

have had to be talked

44:28

down several times with my husband being

44:30

like, you don't know. I I've got a feeling.

44:32

I've got a feel. I've got bad feeling. I've got bad feeling. I

44:34

don't know which to do this. yeah. It's taken

44:36

me a long time to be like, you

44:39

have a fear. You don't know

44:41

the truth. It's a fear. And,

44:45

you know, It's seeking control when you the

44:48

control has been taken from

44:49

you, especially when it's something sudden

44:51

like that. It's like, your

44:53

your body

44:53

is just just trying to pin

44:56

things down and make things stable because

44:58

it's like, ah, something came

45:00

along and we described it actually

45:02

on a lot by the episodes of, like, the magician's

45:04

tablecloth trick. Like, it's like

45:06

someone's whisked that tablecloth away, and everything is

45:08

sort of in the same position,

45:10

but quite. And so you're feeling like that could happen at

45:12

any time. So I need to be like

45:14

clinging onto this table because

45:16

like no one's gonna do that. And yeah,

45:18

it's really It's really

45:19

hard. It's really hard not

45:22

to to feel that

45:24

faith in your

45:26

in your Yeah. Like

45:27

you said in, like, seeing truth or knowing things

45:30

because the world is fucking

45:32

scary. Like, it's really

45:34

scary. And I And I took I

45:36

tried to take that to heart with a therapist said that,

45:38

like, every time I'd be

45:40

freaking out, I'd be, like, count the

45:42

people you haven't died. Like, discount them

45:44

in your head. And that, you know, eventually, I

45:46

was like, okay, is a law. It's a

45:48

lot more higher therapists.

45:50

Yeah. Well, was that the

45:52

therapist suggested or? No.

45:54

No. I just thought that she had kept saying

45:56

to me, well, you know -- Yeah.

45:58

-- like, it's only one person and I was

46:00

so was it annoyed me so

46:01

much? I was like,

46:03

okay. Well, I guess you hit that point.

46:05

We're like, well, I'm so fed up with

46:07

thinking, everyone's gonna die at

46:09

every single moment. And I was like, okay. Go through go through and

46:11

think about it. Like, here's all the people

46:14

who who didn't get cancer or had a

46:16

disease and they're okay. And actually, that's actually

46:18

the it's kind of, yes, as the

46:20

people who died and the people who live, but actually it's

46:21

not, you know, you're not living in a

46:24

situation where

46:25

it's medieval times and column has come to your ability.

46:27

It's like you're not living like

46:29

in that. But it's very easy to understand

46:31

where your body might feel

46:34

like that. Yeah. And then, you know,

46:36

when you start reading everything about anxiety and all

46:38

that stuff about you know, the brain in

46:40

fear mode and what it like, it makes you very rational and it makes you feel

46:42

like, you know you know everything

46:45

and you gotta be safe and know, you know, you're not protected and

46:48

it's yeah. It's it's

46:49

harder. I did a lot of, like, breath work. Like,

46:52

that's the other thing I tried to do

46:54

is, like,

46:55

just the good

46:56

people to do that.

46:58

Yeah. There's a lot about that.

47:02

Like, even

47:03

what is it? It's like the Paris sympathetic nervous

47:05

system, and I'm probably saying that wrong. But

47:07

if you literally breathe out longer than

47:09

you breathe in, Oh, okay. Like, as simple as that. Like, to

47:11

breathe in before, you breathe out for eight, which is also what

47:13

they tell you to do in

47:16

neighbor. And it's

47:18

like people Oh, as in

47:20

them, CHOPUS. Oh, labor.

47:22

Sorry. I thought I was

47:24

like, neighbor. Is that like a I'm like a

47:27

people with

47:27

those who It's by London accent labor.

47:30

And I found

47:32

that quite helpful because it

47:35

does work. Like, it does make your

47:38

brain take a step back from

47:40

that part of your brain that's like, everyone's

47:42

gonna die. Get out of the

47:44

room now. Like, if you just breathe out longer than you're breathing in and your brain

47:46

starts going, oh,

47:48

sorry. I no. I did

47:50

I'm sorry. I don't think they are gonna

47:52

die. I don't know why I said that. Like

47:54

and then you've been kind of have this like

47:57

Yeah. But it's, you know, it's not

47:59

easy and it

48:01

it's it's I think this is the theme of grief, isn't

48:03

it? It's every day. It's like a

48:05

process. It's not and I think we're

48:07

we're constantly hoping that, you know, you'll reach the end

48:09

and it'll be fixed. And everything would be

48:12

but it's unfortunately,

48:14

it's slightly more complicated than that.

48:18

And Sadly. Sadly, they made

48:20

humans more complicated. And

48:22

I I really understand and empathize with you

48:24

with, like you said, your dad's anniversary

48:26

because that that really

48:28

was, like, before this

48:30

moment after this moment, like, here

48:32

is the turning point in that

48:34

character story. Like, there you

48:36

go. Everything changed. And

48:38

I think there's nothing wrong in in the yeah,

48:40

acknowledging that, like, that that's

48:42

very difficult So are they are they

48:43

buried? Is that what happened? Or They are

48:48

they're buried in New

48:50

Jersey near my home

48:52

and funny as my husband was,

48:54

like, maybe we should bring them here,

48:56

like, to, you know, our house, Steven.

49:00

Like, that was a very weird thing for

49:02

me because they are buried

49:04

and I can't

49:05

imagine. I mean, this is gonna

49:08

be really gothic and frightening and insane. But I would

49:10

want to open

49:12

I know. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

49:15

But that's part of the OCD too. Is that,

49:17

like, prior to, like, oh, well, let me

49:19

see it. Why can't I maybe I

49:22

would like it. How do I know like, like, you know,

49:24

like, something if you like

49:25

that. So

49:28

yeah.

49:28

Sorry. So that was probably more

49:31

than No. No. That's fine. It's totally fine.

49:33

I completely got it. That's

49:35

the truth. I would be really I

49:38

feel quite conflicted about that

49:40

as well. Yeah. And I think it's if

49:42

you have also, you know, it's a terrible

49:44

combination of an

49:46

overactive imagination, which clearly you have

49:48

because you're a writer, being creative with the

49:50

over activation

49:51

murmuration, trauma. And then you're

49:54

like, let me imagine all the

49:56

terrible things

49:58

like

49:58

It's just like so powerful.

49:59

And I used to sometimes think that I wish I

50:01

just couldn't imagine these things, but it's like so

50:03

far it's like a Netflix

50:05

horror show, like immediately in

50:08

my brain. So, yeah, I can I can

50:10

relate to being, like, oh my

50:12

god

50:13

god. Yeah. This it was so nice to talk to you. I I don't wanna keep you too

50:16

long. Oh, I this has been

50:18

absolutely lovely, and I am

50:20

good. I'm so

50:20

grateful. No. It was so

50:23

nice. And nice to remember Peter and Peter. My

50:26

dad was Peter as well. So that's Oh

50:28

god. Easy for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

50:30

Yeah. Yeah.

50:32

Yeah. And you don't get many these

50:33

days. So it's always yeah. It's always nice from me. You have a

50:35

beautiful day. Thank you so

50:38

much, Cariad. You

50:41

can find more information about Lisa at WWW

50:44

dot lisatodayo dot com. That's TADDE0

50:48

dot com. She's on Twitter at Lisa d Tydeo, and

50:50

obviously her books are available to buy from

50:52

all good bookstores. You can find

50:54

us on Twitter and Instagram at

50:56

the Griefcast. The

50:58

book is available to preorder now. You were not alone. It's about

51:01

January the nineteenth. I hugely appreciate

51:03

it if you find you were able

51:05

to do that slow to

51:07

go about it. So much. The show was recorded remotely.

51:09

It was edited by Kate Holland. Music was provided by

51:11

the Glu ensemble, stop most

51:14

animations provided by Alice

51:16

Love Day. I remember,

51:18

you were not alone.