0:00

Compassion international connects people

0:02

like you and me with children waiting. Little

0:04

ones like Mohaled and the Dominican Republic

0:06

who's been waiting over a year for a sponsor.

0:09

For thirty eight dollars a month. That's just over

0:11

a dollar a day. You can give a child

0:13

food, clean water, medical checkups,

0:16

and hope. That's all through the local

0:18

church. Enjoy join me today to sponsor

0:20

text eighty 3393.

0:22

That's eighty 3393.

0:25

And send my name, Kirk. I'll go to

0:27

compassion dot com slash Kirk Franklin.

0:29

You know what? As a matter of fact, I'm a be praying for you

0:31

as because I know light skinned people go through a lot and the

0:34

one at the time they'll get real

0:35

pale, you know, so you'll get a lot of sunlight.

0:37

It's a struggle. It's a struggle. It

0:39

is a struggle. And I can feel the pain, you know. And

0:41

I don't know if there's like a light skinned group,

0:43

you know, kind of prep ministry that y'all get

0:45

together every winter and just kinda

0:47

look out for each other. You know what I'm saying? That's something that

0:49

you should think about brother. Brother's

0:53

insistence My

0:57

name is Kirk Franklin, and

1:00

I come to give you Good

1:03

words. Let's

1:08

go. Alright.

1:22

Let's do it. Y'all,

1:27

I'm trying to impress him. Trying

1:34

to press them, y'all. Ladies and gentlemen, I

1:37

got somebody in the studio with me.

1:39

I got somebody on good words. And

1:43

listen, listen, have you ever heard of

1:45

an egots? It means

1:49

Amy. Remy,

1:52

Oscar, Tony.

1:55

And he got all of them y'all. From

1:59

the church. He was raised like your

2:01

boy, but he's been all

2:03

over the world, taken over the world, and

2:05

he is a phenomenon, but

2:08

he's an incredible brother. Ladies

2:11

and gentlemen, welcome to good words

2:14

the legend. John

2:16

Legend. Yes.

2:35

I'm impressed. I'm impressed. John

2:38

Manu first met in the men's bathroom back

2:40

in two thousand four. Oh my

2:42

lord. Where were we at? Where were we at? The VP

2:44

of Wood? Where were we? Oh,

2:46

man. We first met in

2:49

two thousand four. You were opening up

2:51

on the Kanye usher

2:53

tour. Oh, yes. Yes.

2:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You won the

2:58

guy, Usher tour. And I had

3:00

to go pee. As

3:03

one does. Yes. It is.

3:05

And you were like, yo man, my name's John

3:08

Legend. I'm from the church, my dad's

3:10

pastor's like, yo, man, I love your music.

3:12

And I'm thinking, bro, I don't know

3:14

who you end up in mind. Your album wasn't even

3:16

up yet. That's right. It was

3:18

a few months before GetLifted

3:20

came out. We were -- Yeah. -- opening for

3:22

usher. This was during the confession's

3:24

album. And obviously,

3:26

the album was one of the biggest albums ever.

3:29

But -- Yes. -- Kanye was

3:31

opening for Usher and I was Kanye's,

3:34

you know, sidekick. I would sing with him.

3:36

I was like, jeez. And we

3:39

toured with Russia a few months

3:41

before my album came out, but Kanye

3:43

would let me do one song of mine,

3:45

which was used to love you, my very first single.

3:47

And then that kinda set us up. That

3:49

was our first single, and then ordinary people

3:52

came right after that. And and

3:54

then I didn't have to introduce myself

3:56

as much people started to know who I was.

3:58

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And you'd have to worry

4:00

about just random men in the bathroom. You

4:02

haven't talked to her. It's good. We both have a

4:04

good pee. Now were you just

4:06

really trying to be nice to me or

4:09

you really know, like, were you really dead

4:11

and grafted in the gospel music? Oh, of

4:13

course, I was Not only was

4:15

I had engrafted it, I used to teach your

4:17

songs to my choir when I was

4:19

directing

4:19

choir. We were singing melodies

4:22

from heaven and, you

4:23

know, I taught them so many Kirk

4:25

Franklin songs. So your

4:27

music was a part of my story.

4:30

And so many other

4:32

church folk story, of course, But

4:34

mine most certainly, when I was

4:36

a teenager, I was going up in

4:38

Springfield, Ohio. And

4:40

your music was coming out, and I was teaching

4:43

my youth choir, your music.

4:45

And then when I went to college in

4:47

Philadelphia, I would drive up

4:49

to Scranton to an AME church up in

4:51

Scranton out was hired to -- Uh-huh.

4:53

-- directing music there,

4:55

and I was teaching them to your song,

4:57

man. So when I met you,

4:59

I didn't need any kind of education and

5:01

gospel music to know who you were. I

5:03

knew exactly who you were, and it was a pleasure to

5:05

meet you. Listen, man,

5:07

I am very humble about that just because

5:10

the breath of your musical your

5:13

musical IQ when I

5:15

hear how you have been able to present

5:17

your bodies of work, it's very obvious that

5:19

you are tapped into so many different genres

5:21

and you are genre bender. And

5:23

so since you came up in

5:25

church, were you raised one of those kind of homes

5:27

where you can listen to anything else by

5:29

gospel, or were you exposed

5:32

all these different tapest three's

5:34

of music and sound? I

5:36

grew up not being able to listen to anything

5:38

but gospel early on until, you

5:40

know, it's probably eleven or twelve. Okay.

5:42

It's got divorced, and we

5:44

started going to public school. So the world

5:46

just kinda opened up. Right.

5:48

Before that, Yeah. It was almost

5:50

all gospel. So we grew up on a widening

5:53

and commissioned and spread

5:55

having radical for Christ. I know.

5:57

Right? We grew up on all of that Clark

5:59

sisters, Bishop James,

6:01

Watkins. I don't know if y'all know him.

6:03

Yeah. Yeah. Boy,

6:06

you pull that out your bag. I grew up in the

6:08

PAW, so he was a bish he was

6:10

a Charles Watkins. Excuse me. Not James Watkins.

6:12

James Cleveland as well. But Charles

6:14

Watkins. He was a PAW Bishop,

6:18

and he was based in Cleveland.

6:21

And I grew up in Springfield, Ohio.

6:23

And so we used to listen to him, but we

6:25

also listened to James Cleveland as well. And

6:27

we talked to James Cleveland. Okay. Yeah.

6:29

Yes. But that

6:31

was my whole upbringing, and then I

6:33

started getting exposed to all kinds of

6:35

music when I was a teenager and

6:37

and public school. But before that, it was

6:39

strictly charged music. Now

6:42

the music you were being exposed to in

6:44

high school or public school, it's obviously

6:46

that it wasn't just black music. So,

6:48

like, how did that appetite come to

6:50

you where you were not

6:52

only this isn't a music outside of your culture,

6:55

but enjoying it and embracing it and it

6:57

was becoming part of your

6:59

DNA when you would give birth to your

7:01

own music. Well, honestly, it

7:03

didn't really happen until I went to college.

7:05

So when I was in high school, I was still strictly

7:08

black music. It was hip hop,

7:10

RMB, New Jack Swing, And then

7:12

my my dad grew up on,

7:14

like, Motown as a teenager

7:16

was more, like, hip hop and R and B

7:18

at that moment. So Joe to see

7:20

boys a man or yeah. Yeah.

7:22

He's the Mary j

7:25

or Diagella or whatever. In high

7:27

school, I didn't really know many

7:29

white artists at all, truthfully. And

7:31

then when I I went to college though,

7:33

I went to University of Pennsylvania. I was

7:35

in Philadelphia, And so I

7:37

was around the Philly soul scene,

7:39

the Philly meal soul scene,

7:41

but also I was singing in a a

7:43

capella group that was mixed

7:45

race, co ed, we were seeing jazz, we

7:47

were seeing pop, we were seeing

7:49

singer songwriter, rock, everything. And

7:51

so some of those friends that I saying when it

7:53

started to expose me to different kinds of music.

7:55

And then as an adult, I really started

7:58

to expand a bit more. And

8:00

you'll hear influence into all kinds of

8:02

artists for my adult life,

8:04

but the core of who I am has

8:06

always been Costco and soul music.

8:08

Now I get that. And so when did

8:10

you realize that there

8:12

was something inside of

8:14

you musically that you wanted to

8:16

communicate? And I also wanna ask

8:18

you this. Because you were so

8:20

deeply rooted in the church, did

8:23

you go through any private behind

8:25

the scenes, kinda convictions of

8:27

then maybe you were turning your back on God

8:30

or something -- Mhmm. -- when you wanted

8:32

to do music outside of the traditional

8:35

gospel sounds that you were doing, like,

8:37

did you deal with any tension? And if you

8:39

did, how did you deal with it?

8:41

So to answer your first question, when did

8:44

I know that I had something in me? Well, I

8:46

grew up going to acquirers. So because

8:48

my mother was acquirer director

8:50

before I was, and my grandmother

8:53

was the church organist. So I

8:55

grew up around a lot of music. So

8:57

we had a piano at the house. My

8:59

grandmother's both had piano at their

9:01

houses, and we were

9:03

just always exposed to music.

9:05

And from going to choir rehearsal

9:07

with my mother, even before

9:09

they let me sing in the choir, I would be

9:11

there, and I would be watching, and I'd be wanting to

9:13

be a part of it. And I

9:15

didn't know if I could

9:17

write songs, I didn't know what the

9:19

future held. But I knew that I was

9:21

attracted to music and I was attracted

9:23

to singing and I wanted to do

9:25

it. And so I was begging them to let me sing

9:27

the choir when I was, like,

9:29

five and six years old, and

9:31

finally when I was seven, they let me sing

9:33

the choir. And I was

9:35

taken piano lessons when I was four.

9:37

And as soon as I me

9:39

too. Yes. And as soon as I

9:41

got out there on the

9:43

day, it's and started to sing

9:45

and started to feel what

9:47

that would like to feel the energy coming back

9:49

from that audience and from

9:51

the congregation. And then I felt that,

9:53

you know, in school plays as well. So I

9:55

felt this energy and I

9:58

love that feeling of being able to connect with

10:00

people and exchange love

10:02

and positive energy with

10:04

people from the stage. And

10:06

I felt like this was what I wanted

10:08

to do. I wanted to see. And

10:11

life took me in a lot of different

10:13

directions because I was also a

10:15

really good students. So I was able to go to an

10:17

Ivy League school and get a

10:19

good former job after school, but I

10:21

always knew that I wanted to make

10:23

music for a living. And so I was always trying to

10:25

do everything. I was trying to make as much music

10:27

as I can make, but also be a straight

10:29

a student, also do, you know, all the

10:31

other things right that I needed to

10:33

do. But music was always the thing I loved

10:35

the most and it was always my

10:37

dream to be exactly where I

10:39

am. And even when I was fifteen years

10:41

old, I wrote an essay there

10:43

was a competition sponsored

10:45

by McDonald. It was for Black History Month,

10:47

and they called it future black history

10:49

makers of tomorrow, and the essay

10:51

prompt was just how plan to make black

10:53

history? And my answer

10:55

was that I was gonna become a

10:57

successful musician and I was gonna use

10:59

that success to

11:01

uplift my community, fight for

11:03

justice, or fight for quality. And

11:05

-- Mhmm. -- that was my vision for

11:08

myself when I was fifteen years old.

11:10

And now I'm forty three

11:12

and I'm living that that vision

11:14

to the fullest. Yes, you

11:16

are. Yes, you are. Tell me about that

11:18

tension. Tell me about -- Yeah. -- if you

11:20

had any private tension, did you

11:22

feel any pressure from the

11:24

old saints because I'm impressed to

11:26

hear you even tell me about

11:28

how you were so engrafted into

11:31

gospel music and you were aware of

11:33

what was happening around you with the spiritual

11:35

music you were listening to. And so as you

11:37

were transitioning to this

11:39

pop icon, at the beginning

11:41

of it, did you feel

11:44

any struggle? Well,

11:47

I grew up in AAA

11:50

very, you know, conservative kind of

11:52

pastors church where they didn't even

11:54

want us to go to the movies when I was a

11:56

kid. They didn't wanna listen to secular

11:58

music. And -- Yeah. -- so there

12:00

was definitely that taboo. What

12:03

kind of made me feel more

12:05

liberated was when I went away to college.

12:08

And, you know, it started to be on my own.

12:10

And and even though I was still playing in the church

12:12

at the time, on the weekends, I

12:14

still felt enough

12:17

autonomy and

12:19

independence where I felt like

12:21

I could make whatever decisions I felt

12:23

like I needed to make. And I

12:25

think what was interesting was

12:28

being the child of divorce.

12:30

Because once my parents got divorced,

12:33

things starting to loosen up when they came to a

12:35

lot of the rules because so much

12:37

of the strictness was kinda within that

12:39

mother father, you know, authority

12:41

structure when our family

12:44

kinda fell apart. It

12:46

kinda forced us to be more independent. And

12:50

because of that, the independents

12:52

is kind of a good to the cars. It's like, the

12:54

hard part is that you still need your parents

12:56

support, you still need that love from both

12:58

of them, but when you don't have it,

13:00

fortunately, you just start to grow

13:02

up earlier than you probably

13:04

would have otherwise. And so I

13:06

think that growing

13:08

up before I would

13:10

have otherwise also made me

13:12

feel like I was

13:14

empowered to make my own decision than

13:16

go where I was inspired to

13:18

go musically. And so that's what

13:20

I did. I wanted to write about

13:22

the full experience of life.

13:24

I felt like doing

13:26

it in the way that I've been doing it

13:28

was the way that was gonna make sense

13:30

for me, and that's what I've done.

13:32

You know, even when I listen to

13:34

our newer people, is I

13:36

still hear the motif of

13:39

a spiritual journey -- Yeah. -- for me

13:41

personally to just as a songwriter

13:43

myself. It's it's when I heard our

13:45

nerve people, it just speaks to what

13:47

I also think that gospel music is.

13:49

It is not only a snapshot of

13:52

this vertical experience. Right?

13:54

But there's this horizontal love. Okay.

13:56

Who am I? And what am I

13:58

created for? And and how do I deal

14:00

with the ebbs and flows of the

14:02

life and winning and losing and gaining.

14:04

And so just tell me

14:06

a little bit about that

14:08

process of this

14:10

brilliant song. Because you know what was crazy about

14:12

just about ordinary people is because,

14:14

again, Adam came out in o four. Right?

14:16

December of four. And it was

14:18

counterintuitive to everything that

14:21

sounded like black radio at the moment. You

14:23

know, like it didn't have drums, it was

14:25

just piano, And I remember being

14:27

at this high school in the in this

14:29

urban community and remember

14:32

the kids. Being

14:34

around the piano while I played ordinary

14:36

people. And it's like the football

14:39

players, the basketball players, every

14:42

young hood kid in the

14:44

midst of, let's see, because of who was

14:46

running the charts. Like, cash, money was running

14:48

the charts. Back then. B2K was

14:50

running the charts, and Orkela was

14:52

running the charts. And so many other

14:54

urban sounding artists and

14:56

just had it unlocked. And then here comes

14:58

ordinary people that

15:00

is counterintuitive to everything

15:02

that was happening in the ecosystem

15:04

of music. I want you to tell

15:06

me how it was for you when

15:08

you found out that this song that you

15:10

probably took a chance on,

15:12

that your label took a chance on, that radio

15:15

took a chance on, how did you

15:17

feel when you found out that even with

15:19

your people, it hit?

15:22

Well, here's what happened.

15:24

This the full story of ordinary people just

15:26

started in a session with Will I

15:28

Am from the Black IPs. So

15:31

we had the same manager at that time,

15:33

and we had written other

15:35

songs for my

15:36

project, for his projects. We had written

15:38

she don't have to know together from that same

15:40

album get lifted. We had written

15:42

a couple of hooks for the black IPs

15:44

already by that point. And

15:46

so we had a good songwriting

15:48

report together and he

15:50

played a beat for me and I started

15:52

singing the melody to ordinary

15:54

people to that beat. And

15:57

that song was originally supposed to

15:59

be kind of like a hip hop pop

16:01

song hooked by me,

16:03

but the black IPs were gonna wrap on

16:05

it. It was a whole whole separate idea,

16:07

but the court was the same.

16:10

And a couple days later, I was

16:12

like, I hadn't written a few hooks for him

16:14

that night. And I was like,

16:16

you know what? Well, I wanna keep this one

16:18

for myself. So I kept

16:20

ordinary people for myself. And my only promise then

16:22

was I was gonna let him produce whatever

16:25

final version of or great people that was, but I

16:27

was like, it feels like more of a RMB

16:29

song and I wanna make it. So

16:31

anyway, I went off. I was on

16:33

tour internationally with Kanye,

16:36

and they're on the

16:38

road doing sound checks and different things.

16:40

And I'm writing all the verses to ordinary

16:42

people and telling the story about the

16:44

ups and downs I love, the push and

16:46

pull, of how real people

16:48

experience love. And I'm honestly

16:50

basing it a lot on my parents situation

16:52

because they had been married and divorced and then

16:54

they got married together again. And

16:56

then they were divorcing again around that

16:59

time. And so I

17:01

was writing it really based on that.

17:04

And I recorded a piano

17:06

demo version of the song, and

17:09

I thought of it as a scratch version

17:11

that I was gonna send to Will

17:13

and have produce up. And,

17:15

of course, the version that came to the

17:17

world was that demo piano

17:20

version because It

17:22

just was so striking. Like you said,

17:24

it would grab people's attention and

17:26

didn't sound like anything else on the

17:28

radio. It made people just stop

17:30

and pay attention. And people would tell me

17:32

they pulled over their cards when the song

17:34

came on the first time when they heard it on the

17:36

radio because it just sounded so

17:38

strikingly different from everything else

17:40

that goes on Black Radio. And it did

17:42

really cross over. Like,

17:44

all of me crossed over, but ordinary

17:46

people did not cross over really. It

17:48

was almost strictly a black radio phenomenon in

17:50

America. Overseas, it crossed over in

17:53

different places. But in America, it was

17:55

almost strictly on urban AC

17:57

and urban mainstream radio

17:59

and some rhythm. And then we got to remix

18:01

that plate on some more rhythm stations.

18:04

But the majority of people that caught on to

18:06

ordinary people were folks listening to black

18:08

music. It wasn't a pop radio

18:10

hit. Really? Yeah.

18:12

It was it was us, man.

18:15

That made ordinary people big. And the first station

18:17

that played it was

18:20

WGCI in Chicago. And so Yeah,

18:23

buddy. That's Elroy. Yes, sir. So we have put

18:25

out I used to love you as the first

18:27

single, and I was out on the road with Usher

18:29

and Tanya. Promoting

18:31

that, we will go to the station to promote

18:33

it, and then we had a sampler.

18:36

And the sampler had a full

18:38

version of used to love you. A full version of

18:40

ordinary people and then three snippets of

18:42

other songs on the Getnet to

18:44

album. Those were the

18:46

days. Yes. Do you remember those samples?

18:49

So we

18:50

gave the sampler out, and we

18:52

were promoting you salami, but GCI

18:54

was like, we wanna play this

18:57

one. And so they started playing ordinary

19:00

people, and it blew up in Chicago.

19:02

And then other states just started to grab onto

19:04

it, and it organically just

19:06

kept growing. And then eventually, we shot a video for

19:09

it. By

19:09

two thousand five, it really took off.

19:12

And I always tell people the day I

19:14

knew I was famous, was

19:16

the day that I got a call on my cell phone

19:18

from both magic Johnson and

19:20

Oprah Winfrey on the same day.

19:23

And they even heard ordinary people and they

19:25

loved the new album, and they

19:27

both asked me to sing in an event they were

19:29

doing separately and separate events at

19:31

their different homes. Wow. I would thought

19:33

a thing called the Legends ball. I don't know if you

19:36

remember this. She on and all this black

19:37

women. Just like

19:39

some of her favorite black women in every, you

19:41

know, genre, whatever they were actors or

19:44

musicians or whatever they were. And

19:46

she brought them all to honor them

19:48

at her place in Montecito. And

19:50

then magic had a charity event in his backyard in

19:52

his house. And both of

19:55

them called me the same day to invite me to both of

19:57

those things and to perform. And

19:59

I always tell people that's the day I knew I had crossed

20:01

the line until being a famous

20:03

person. Yeah. We were all at New

20:06

Jersey. I feel it. I feel it. You

20:08

know what? Man, I gotta say

20:10

this. I gotta say this. To

20:12

hear you say that a song like

20:14

ordinary people became

20:17

a smashed because of us

20:19

in the middle. It's because I remember

20:21

I remember the landscape of Black Music

20:23

then. You know what I'm saying? It was, you

20:25

know, really good when you backed that thing up,

20:27

and, you know, it was ludicrous. Like,

20:29

I know how heavy it

20:32

was in hip hop music and

20:34

other forms of black interpretation of

20:36

who we are. What do you

20:38

think that says about our

20:41

people that sometimes is

20:43

I think that we serve

20:46

people only what we think they wanna eat

20:48

and forget that there is a

20:50

whole meal that our people want to

20:52

enjoy. Do you think that

20:54

as creatives that we're forgetting

20:56

that? And do you think that we are

20:58

now just only super serving

21:00

the one side of

21:02

who we are and missing the

21:04

fact that we're storytellers to them. We

21:06

wanna hear a great love song that ain't got

21:09

nothing to do with, you know, all

21:11

of the sexual innuendos that

21:13

that are also part of life. I'm not trying

21:15

to hate on the totality

21:17

of who humans are and what humans

21:20

do. But to know that our

21:22

native people became a smash

21:24

even by,

21:25

like, niggas and hood.

21:28

Like, what does that say

21:30

to you as a creative? Do you think that

21:32

sometimes we're missing and

21:34

underplaying? The

21:37

breadth of who we are and

21:39

what we like, and so

21:41

everything we're eating now seems so

21:43

marginalized.

21:44

Well, I think Black folks are

21:47

complex. We're interesting. We're

21:49

so diverse and there's so much to who

21:51

we are. We've always been

21:53

innovators when it comes to

21:55

popular music. So much -- Yeah. -- the innovation that

21:57

happens in music

21:59

overall is coming from

22:01

black creators, coming from black

22:03

music. And there's always gonna be

22:05

this push and pull of trying

22:07

to do what you think is going to be

22:10

popular versus creating something

22:12

new and different and fresh

22:14

that you wanna bring people to you

22:16

rather than going to

22:17

them. You know? And I think

22:20

that tension is real,

22:22

and it may be a healthy tension where you're

22:24

always going

22:25

back and forth. You're like, I know

22:27

what's working right now. Should

22:29

I cater to that? Or

22:31

should I make people come to

22:34

where I am create something that's gonna be

22:36

the next thing that's working. And

22:38

I think it's a never ending challenge. It's

22:40

probably a healthy part of being creative because

22:42

you're always building that push and pull that

22:45

side of will this work?

22:48

No. Is it is

22:50

it different? Is it just different

22:52

enough that it feels fresh and

22:54

exciting? And so much of the innovation

22:56

in music has come from us, though,

22:58

pushing -- Yes. -- and

22:59

saying, this is what's next.

23:01

Do you feel like the new

23:03

generation is pushing? Or do

23:05

you

23:05

feel like more they're being pulled?

23:09

Well, I was just

23:11

talking about this whole TikTok being, and I think a lot of musicians

23:13

are feeling frustrated with the

23:16

dominance of TikTok and

23:18

the sense that you have to

23:20

play in that

23:23

realm for anything to work and

23:25

-- Yeah. -- you have to figure out a way to go

23:27

viral and for things to trend

23:29

in that way for anything to

23:30

work. And, you

23:33

know, I think we're all dealing with it and

23:35

trying to figure out whether it's making

23:37

us

23:37

Chase the wrong thing. You know

23:40

what I'm saying? And

23:44

when I'm in the studio, TikTok

23:47

does not come up. It's like, I'm just

23:49

trying to make music. I'm

23:51

just trying to make music that I love and

23:53

that I believe it. That I

23:55

would wanna listen to and that I wanna present to the world and

23:57

hope they wanna listen to too. But then

24:00

once we get into marketing

24:03

the music, you do feel like but

24:05

you have to meet people where they are

24:07

and you have to bring them music

24:09

that's gonna grab them and get them to go,

24:11

listen to the whole project. And so we do

24:13

use TikTok in that way where we're trying to,

24:15

like, connect with people and make

24:17

them check out maybe this

24:19

one song that's trending in

24:21

one way. And then go check out the whole

24:23

album as a result of having

24:25

checked out that song. And

24:26

so, you know, I think everybody

24:29

is worried because feels

24:31

like the labels

24:33

only care about

24:35

what's working on TikTok and

24:38

That's a different metric

24:40

then. Is it a great song? Is it a song

24:42

that people really wanna hear? It's

24:44

Can it go viral? Yes.

24:46

For whatever reason. Yeah. Yeah.

24:50

It is the

24:53

it is the decision, man.

24:55

That's the tension. And it's good to

24:57

know that even somebody as accomplished

24:59

as you, you still feel

25:01

that tension. You feel the tension. Whether

25:03

you are creating content for movies, for television, for

25:06

theater, and then you've come

25:08

from such a great history

25:10

of being raised in the

25:12

Black religious tradition and

25:14

and not only inspired your relationship to

25:16

music, but you've also said that they laid

25:18

the foundation for your activism as

25:20

well. Yeah. You you kinda talked about that.

25:22

Right, John? you kinda elaborate

25:24

just a little bit more, brother? Well,

25:26

I think anybody who knows about the history

25:28

of the black church and the history of the civil

25:30

rights movement in America

25:32

know that they were so intertwined and

25:35

they have been for so long. Because

25:38

one, the Black Church

25:40

was one of the only places in America

25:42

where we could fully

25:44

be leaders in our community. We

25:46

had control. We ran.

25:48

Our churches. They were the places where

25:50

we congregate it not only to worship,

25:53

but we congregate it to organize

25:55

boycotts and fight for

25:57

justice and get people to march some of

25:59

our most important civil rights leaders

26:01

where our pastors are

26:03

religious leaders. And so

26:05

the black church has always been

26:07

so central to the fight for

26:09

justice in America for black

26:10

people. So when

26:13

I was coming up in

26:15

the church,

26:15

I was inspired by that tradition. And

26:17

so when I thought about would admit

26:19

to live an impactful life,

26:22

to live a life, to admit

26:24

something, beyond what I could

26:26

do for myself. It was

26:28

a lot of black masters that

26:30

were the inspiration. We talk

26:32

about doctor King, but he

26:34

was also reverend doctor King. You know? Yeah. And

26:37

the fact that his

26:40

activism was rooted in

26:42

the

26:43

teachings of Jesus, rooted

26:46

in a sense of love for

26:48

all of our neighbors, rooted

26:50

in creating this beloved community

26:52

that was an important part of

26:54

his message and --

26:55

Mhmm. --

26:55

it provided so much of

26:57

the

26:58

righteous indignation and

27:01

moral force that he came

27:03

with, and it was such an important part

27:05

of the

27:06

struggle. Now, do you feel like

27:08

the black church has moved away from that

27:10

activist tradition?

27:11

I think it has it to some

27:14

extent. There's other people who can speak with more

27:16

expertise on that. But,

27:18

you know, I think everything

27:21

in America has some capitalist kind

27:23

of

27:23

influence. And I

27:26

think sometimes

27:28

church leaders don't

27:30

wanna offend anybody

27:33

nowadays, and they

27:35

wanna preached kind of a field

27:37

of

27:37

message, a prosperity message,

27:40

and they

27:41

don't wanna be controversial

27:43

when it comes to politics.

27:46

And also, I think because

27:48

a lot of progressive

27:50

politics has been more

27:52

inclusive of our gay

27:54

and lesbian brothers and sisters,

27:56

so many groups at the church has always

27:58

had a difficult relationship

28:01

with over the years. And

28:03

even when it comes to women's rights, the church

28:05

has always been a little bit behind when

28:07

it comes to that as well. And

28:09

so I think because a lot of

28:11

the political frontier when it

28:13

comes to rights and justice and

28:15

equality and progressive values,

28:17

has ventured in the territory that some folk in the church aren't

28:19

as comfortable with, that might be a

28:21

reason as well. Yeah. And not

28:23

only are we dealing with

28:25

the issues of racism outside of our community,

28:28

but now we're dealing with classism inside

28:30

the community. And I think his

28:32

prosperity, gospel can get

28:34

into that Because once you start --

28:36

Yeah. -- preaching that your

28:39

wealth and your blessings on

28:41

earth are tied to

28:43

your morality and your righteousness as

28:45

a person, then the next

28:47

step is blaming people

28:49

for being poor. That's where the next

28:52

step. So we have to be careful about that, I

28:54

think. Yes.

28:54

I think prosperity gospel sucks.

28:57

And I think those that preach it

28:58

suck. How was

28:58

it gonna say it? I'll I'll say it.

29:01

No. I'm gonna say it. It sucks. It

29:03

sucks because it makes the gospel in Jesus

29:05

Santa Claus and your blessings

29:07

and your identity cannot

29:09

be quantified by what you have in your

29:11

hand, what you drive, what you live. All of

29:13

those things are problematic to

29:15

any teaching that is supposed to be about

29:17

something bigger and greater than

29:18

you. And so, you know, don't even give me all my

29:20

soapbox on that, bro, because I would Well, you

29:22

know. And even just looking at

29:24

all of Jesus' statements on

29:27

rich folks. He was very skeptical.

29:29

You're very skeptical. He

29:32

was. He was.

29:33

Yeah. I mean, like I said, the next step,

29:35

whenever you've reached that, is that

29:37

folks

29:37

feel like

29:38

they've done something wrong.

29:40

Mhmm. To our god,

29:43

if they don't have it. Yeah.

29:45

Yeah. Buddy. And John and I

29:47

do wanna give a shout out to all the

29:49

men and women that are preaching balance. There are some good

29:52

guys. There are some good people out there that are doing

29:54

great jobs. And so we're not making

29:56

a blanket statement on overall

29:58

narrative of the church and people of faith,

30:00

but we do wanna point out these unnecessary

30:04

representatives that are not making the

30:06

cause in case any better. With

30:09

that, we're gonna take a quick

30:11

break. Hey,

30:16

beautiful people. This is Kurt

30:18

Franklin. Right before the pandemic had a

30:20

chance to travel to the Dominican Republic.

30:22

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30:32

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30:34

I've met families that live on less than

30:36

two dollars a day. And in

30:38

twenty twenty because I was there, I was able to see

30:40

these kids that were waiting for sponsors. Little

30:43

ones like Mariel, the eight year old girl who's been

30:45

waiting for for your first answer.

30:47

These kids need you. Compassionate

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31:20

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And let's get back into

32:59

it. John, I'm

33:01

actually this. What social justice issue

33:03

are you most focused on in

33:05

this moment of John Legend's

33:07

life? Well, we focus the most

33:10

on the criminal justice system. We have an

33:12

organization called Free America. We

33:14

really believe in redemption.

33:16

We really believe in the idea that we

33:18

shouldn't be locking so many people up.

33:20

And then give them the opportunity

33:23

to be forgiven and

33:26

to write their wrongs in a way

33:28

that's not as harmful to them and to

33:30

their community as incarceration

33:32

has been. And so

33:34

we've been fighting to rate

33:36

to apply the law more fairly

33:40

regardless of your race or your

33:42

financial status. We

33:44

believe that this nation should

33:46

be just and fair and

33:48

also merciful. Mhmm. And so we've

33:50

been working to do that. And

33:53

again, that's rooted in my

33:55

upbringing as well because we would

33:57

talk forgiveness, we would talk redemption,

34:00

and I believe that

34:02

we were taught grace as well. And

34:04

-- Yeah. -- I believe that that has

34:07

to play out in our public life. And one of

34:09

the ways we do that

34:11

is reconsidering and reshaping the way we

34:14

think about what justice

34:16

means and having it much more tempered

34:18

with

34:19

grace and mercy. Yes. Yes. Yes. John, I got

34:22

another one though. If someone is

34:24

politically engaged as you are, who

34:26

organized this for change, what would

34:28

you say is one of the most

34:30

important things that everyday folks should

34:32

be focused on. Because, see, when you have a

34:34

platform like yours, a lot of

34:36

people can say, well, it's easy for him to get

34:38

engaged because he has all the resources,

34:40

he has the name, and he has the

34:42

access. But how can

34:44

everyday people that may have the

34:46

same passion that you have. How can they become impactful

34:48

and making the same type of changes

34:50

that you believe are necessary?

34:53

For our communities and for our country to become

34:56

better? I

34:56

think it really starts at

34:59

home. It starts locally. And,

35:01

you know, I'm able to do things nationally

35:03

and sometimes internationally because of who I

35:06

am, the amount I'm able to travel, the amount

35:08

of influence I have worldwide, everybody

35:10

is part of a community.

35:12

And I think it's important for

35:14

you to look at what's happening in

35:18

your community what inspires you, whether it's a homelessness issue,

35:20

whether it's a hunger issue,

35:22

whether it's a criminal

35:24

justice issue, it actually

35:26

is pretty easy to get involved locally if

35:28

you wanna do it. There are folks who

35:30

are looking for volunteers, folks who are

35:32

looking for help, And even if you don't have the money to

35:34

do it, even your time can be

35:37

really valuable. And you've got to

35:39

look around what's happening in your

35:41

community and decide Well, what inspires me? What gets me excited to

35:43

get involved? Whether it's even just

35:46

organizing the voluntary to get people out

35:48

for the

35:50

election? All of those things are important. And I think if

35:52

you start locally and start with whatever

35:54

your passion is, whatever inspires

35:58

you, that's the best way to do it. And it's gonna be different answers different

36:00

people, but so many of the decisions

36:02

that affect our lives are done on

36:05

a local level. Whether it's May or so.

36:07

Right? And city council deciding on

36:10

zoning and our school systems and

36:12

police funding and how many people we

36:14

lock

36:15

up for this or that reason. All those

36:18

things are local and state

36:20

level. And we pay

36:21

a lot of attention to, you know,

36:23

buy it in our for whoever's

36:25

in the office at any particular

36:28

time nationally, but so many of the major

36:30

decisions that affect our

36:32

lives are done on a local level, and we gotta

36:34

pay attention to those elections and

36:36

follow-up, pay attention beyond

36:38

the election as well. Yeah.

36:41

Local government is a mess, and

36:43

it is so difficult. And I think people become

36:45

very just overwhelmed, and it can be very daunting

36:47

because local government, it can be very

36:49

strong on by what

36:52

region of country you live in. Yeah. Like here in

36:54

Texas, it's almost like it's very difficult

36:56

to move anything that is

36:58

counterintuitive to a

37:00

conservative view or

37:02

a conservative ideal. And so yeah. But

37:04

the ladies and gentlemen, I agree with John. We still

37:06

have to keep the fight. We have to keep the battle.

37:09

And because local it's kinda small, like, going to these

37:11

town meetings or or getting involved in a little collections

37:14

because that actually means that the

37:16

people that

37:18

speak up, the most, the people that get involved, the most, they have a

37:20

outsized influence because there's not a lot of

37:22

folks that are willing to do it.

37:25

And so -- Mhmm. -- if the other

37:27

side is the only one making all the

37:29

noise, then they're the ones that are gonna

37:31

get hurt, and they're the ones who're

37:33

gonna get priority is taken care of, and so we have

37:35

to make sure we're in vocal too.

37:38

So the priorities are getting

37:39

taken care of. Yeah. Yeah.

37:42

Yeah. As well as, you know, local

37:44

funding comes from state funding. Think that

37:46

there is a bigger conversation than me and you

37:48

can't have the book because it's above our pay

37:50

grade. But I really do think that a

37:53

lot of the infrastructure of

37:55

American politics should be revisited.

37:57

I think at some point,

37:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's because a lot of these issues and and

38:01

we've heard this. We've worked so much over the last half

38:04

a decade, but they are systemic and not

38:06

just for black folk. Bharbor

38:08

folk, you know? But, man, you know what? Let me just

38:10

say this to you before me, Bharbor, is I do

38:12

wanna say to you that I

38:14

am impressed and I because

38:17

your passion for

38:20

social injustice

38:22

and for social justice is something that has

38:24

become part of the tapestry that

38:27

fans have come

38:29

to know you by and because you've been consistent in

38:31

that message and I wanna commend you on that brother because I

38:34

know that can be very daunting and I know it can be

38:36

very fatiguing

38:38

to try to stay current, to wanna stay relevant musically, fashion. I

38:40

know men you love Rich Fresh. Shout out

38:42

to Rich

38:43

Fresh. That's the whole movie

38:46

killing it. Shout out to Rich Fresh. He's a beer. Here at nine

38:48

dollar bar, Las Vegas, a

38:50

resident. Yeah. No. No. Out there.

38:52

Big Kyo too. And we

38:54

love Rich fresh. He's a

38:56

brother based out here in LA, but he's

38:58

from Memphis and he's a

39:00

church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even

39:02

make little man sizes

39:04

for me. So I got to wish first for making a little man

39:05

sizes. So, man, I do

39:08

wanna ask you these questions now,

39:10

but I promise you that I'm going to be

39:12

very integral

39:14

and very keep it on the lightest side of the conversation because

39:16

I think the menu both coming from a place of

39:18

faith. We always wanna have a door

39:20

open for redemption for everybody. So even

39:23

the questions I'm about to ask you about Kanye is I wanna

39:25

talk about the gula because again, I don't

39:28

ever wanna have a conversation that doesn't leave

39:30

a door open. So

39:32

tell me, How did that

39:34

phone call happen? How did that introduction

39:36

happen? You're in Pennsylvania doing

39:38

music. You're walking around. You know what I'm saying?

39:40

Good looking young lights skin dead brother.

39:42

I'm sorry. You got this really

39:44

unique, old you know what? As a

39:46

matter of fact, I'm gonna be praying for you. It's because I know light skinned

39:48

people go to a lot and they wanna time y'all get real pale,

39:50

you know, so you don't get a lot of sunlight. It's

39:52

a struggle. It's a struggle. It's a

39:54

struggle. And I can feel the pain, you know,

39:57

I don't know if there's like a light skinned that group,

39:59

you know, kinda prep ministry that y'all

40:01

get together every winter and just kinda look out

40:03

for each other. Know what I'm saying? That's something

40:05

that you should think about, brother. I think there's a life skin to support group than

40:08

the one at times of the year that can

40:10

really

40:11

use your encouragement. No.

40:12

We don't know which way to go. We don't know which way to go. The most way to

40:15

go. What were you doing? Where were

40:17

you at? How did that happen to

40:19

get that call in the

40:22

net

40:22

connect? So I was actually in New York at that

40:24

time. So I graduated from school and

40:26

after a year in Boston, I moved

40:29

to New York. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Ladies

40:31

and gentlemen, young musicians listen to what he just

40:34

said. He's

40:36

not graduated. didn't.

40:38

He heal one dream just for the

40:40

other dream. Both dreams can live at

40:42

the same time. Alright, brother. Please continue.

40:44

Yes, sir. So I graduated from

40:47

University

40:47

of Pennsylvania got a job

40:50

with as a management

40:52

consultant.

40:52

So this is in the corporate world,

40:54

you know, a lot of nerdy stuff,

40:58

PowerPoint slides and Excel

41:00

spreadsheets and charts and

41:02

whatnot. And so that was my

41:04

day job. And I did it for a

41:06

year in Boston, but I knew I wanted to make

41:08

music for a living. So I

41:10

-- Uh-huh. -- asked him to transfer me to New York

41:12

because I felt like there would be

41:14

more opportunity for me to be heard and seen in New York. And so

41:16

I transferred to New York. And

41:18

during the day, I'm working. And then

41:20

at night,

41:22

making music. I'm playing gigs around New York.

41:24

And I would play at little clubs, sometimes

41:26

with my band, sometimes by myself

41:29

on the piano. And my roommate at the time

41:31

was Kanye's cousin. And

41:34

Kanye wasn't some famous

41:36

producer at the time. He was just like a young guy

41:38

that had was about to

41:40

move to New York from

41:42

Chicago. My roommate, his

41:44

cousin, Devon. Devon

41:46

says, yo, you gotta meet my cousin.

41:48

Kanye. He's moving here, and he just started working with JZ.

41:51

He also worked together. And so

41:53

he invites him to a show

41:55

I had in Harlem. I

41:57

had a place called Jimmy's Uptown, and

42:00

I played the gig. And then after

42:02

the show, Devon introduces me

42:04

a Kanye, and we just briefly

42:07

met at that moment, but the bomb was

42:10

persistent. He was like, yo, you guys gotta work

42:12

together. For real, it's gonna be great for both

42:14

of you. And then eventually, we started working together. I would go to

42:16

his apartment. He had a little studio in his

42:18

apartment in Newark, New

42:20

Jersey. We will be

42:22

working on all

42:24

the tracks, y'all know his college dropout. He

42:26

was recording early versions of

42:29

those that same time. He

42:31

was writing with me songs that would

42:34

eventually be on get lifted. And

42:36

so, eventually, I signed with his

42:38

production company --

42:40

Good music. And Devon was basically running its production company at

42:42

that time. And I was their

42:44

first major signing -- Wow. -- and

42:46

first artists that they really

42:48

put out as an

42:50

artist, Kanye helped me get a deal

42:52

at Columbia through good

42:54

music, and we had tried at multiple

42:56

places before. I've been trying to get a deal

42:58

since ninety eight. What I was doing in

43:00

college. The first time I ever played on a big

43:02

record was Lauren Hills, miss educational Lauren

43:04

Hills. This is before Kanye. This was

43:06

through a contact. What did you

43:08

do? I play piano and everything is

43:10

everything. I play piano. Are you

43:12

serious? Yeah.

43:14

That's the first thing I ever played on, and I started working with some of the

43:16

producers that worked on that. I was still

43:18

a student at Penn at that time.

43:22

And then when I graduated, I still work with some of those producers and some other producers

43:24

in Philly and New York. And I was

43:26

building a repertoire of solo song

43:29

that I've written And then when

43:31

I started working with

43:32

Kanye, it just amped it up because

43:35

his influence really

43:35

just helped my music grow. He really

43:38

brought more hip hop influence into what I

43:40

was doing. And so it was really a nice fusion of soul hip

43:42

hop. And so us working together

43:44

was just a great combination for

43:47

both of us. And you'll hear me all over

43:49

college dropout even when you don't know it's

43:52

me. I'm

43:54

like singing That's

44:00

you on g as well. Yeah.

44:02

That's me. That's genius.

44:04

I'm sorry.

44:04

We were creating this album, and it

44:07

just

44:07

felt like it was gonna be so

44:09

special and so classic and so

44:11

meaningful. And I told Kanye at that

44:13

time, I was like, I

44:15

was a part of the miss educational Lauren

44:17

Hill, and now I'm a part of your

44:19

debut album. I feel like,

44:21

both of these albums are when it,

44:23

like, standard test of time. It's like

44:25

these historic albums that change

44:27

hip hop and I agree with

44:29

hip hop in a new direction. By the time, college

44:32

dropout came out.

44:34

He was huge.

44:36

You know? He debuted so, like, four hundred thousand records in

44:38

first week. Yes. And everybody's

44:40

like, well, what's next out

44:43

of his camp? And I was next. And Columbia signed

44:45

me in May of that year because college dropped

44:48

out of curiosity about in February. And a lot

44:50

of these same label that

44:52

turned me down. Why did a college

44:54

drop out of the middle? Everything

44:56

sounded a lot better. Once they

44:57

saw how many units he did

44:59

the first week, when did you get a

45:02

snapshot of you were

45:04

working with someone that

45:07

was going to changed the

45:10

trajectory of popular

45:12

music. When did it hit you

45:14

that, okay, he

45:17

different. Well, it was right after the

45:20

accident, and he was camped

45:22

out in Los Angeles at the

45:24

record

45:26

plant. And I was still working my corporate

45:28

job, but I took some days off

45:30

and he flew me out to

45:31

LA. And

45:34

I was like, whoa. They are making

45:36

some beautiful, special

45:39

music that's gonna change the

45:41

world. Jesus wants probably with

45:44

the track Jesus walked through his tractor. He was like, oh,

45:46

my god. And just feels so

45:48

different. Yeah. It feels so special.

45:50

Yeah. So so

45:52

and dising. And so monumental. And

45:54

then you hear that loud on the speakers at

45:56

record plant. And that's when I was like, man,

45:58

I've been part of miss Ed

46:01

a vacation in this -- Yes. -- two

46:03

world changing albums. Yes. Yeah. You have

46:05

no idea how mad I was at Jesus for

46:07

giving him that song. You have I was

46:09

like, I was like, Jesus, I've been walking with your shit

46:11

about me. Jesus, I've been walking with you a

46:13

little bit longer. You could have loaned that

46:15

to me. Jesus. That

46:19

record. I've been walking with you,

46:21

Jesus. Yeah. That record had

46:23

all the ingredients. For

46:25

greatness. And I know that you as a,

46:28

you know, man that loves people and loves faith. I

46:30

know you're praying for him, John. I know you're praying

46:32

for him, and I know you're lifting

46:34

him up. And as all of us are who really care

46:36

about the souls of people,

46:38

what message of healing

46:40

do you think could be the greatest message of

46:44

healing that Kanye could hear right now

46:46

from people that

46:48

do love him for who he is

46:50

and not what he does.

46:54

I

46:55

think, Kanye, he

47:00

knows that God's message

47:02

was love. He knows

47:05

that Jesus' message was love

47:07

for our neighbors. Love for people who don't look like

47:09

us, love for people who are different from

47:12

us. He knows that.

47:14

And I think there are times when he

47:16

forgets that, and he said some things

47:18

that are hateful -- Mhmm. -- and that are

47:20

harmful. Mhmm. And some of the things he

47:22

said in the past

47:24

few weeks, have been especially harmful and who

47:27

honestly can't afford to have

47:29

this kind of bitchy all directed at

47:31

them because they've already been

47:34

victims of so much hate going victory y'all.

47:36

And I'm talking about black folks

47:38

and black folks. Yes. And you

47:42

think about both of our histories. A lot of times, folks get

47:44

into a competition about who's had it

47:46

worse. But the

47:48

fact is both of our

47:50

groups have been marginalized and

47:52

terrorized and abused

47:54

in this country and in other

47:56

places around the

47:58

world. And for any of us to direct even

48:01

more

48:01

hate at black folks, more hate

48:04

at Jewish folks who've

48:06

already been victims of so

48:08

much

48:08

hate, victims of so much violence

48:10

because of who they are. That's

48:12

just not something

48:13

we should do. Agreed. And I

48:15

know the Kanye pass faith,

48:18

and he wants to do the right

48:20

thing. And so I just

48:22

want him to know that the right thing

48:24

is for him to be spreading love. Yes. And

48:27

him to reject hate reject violence,

48:29

reject the harm that can

48:31

come from his hateful language

48:33

and the actions that

48:36

can be inspired by it. That was beautiful. It

48:38

was brilliant. And we're sending those

48:41

prayers and this message of hope

48:43

and love into his direction today. Thank

48:45

you, sir. Let's talk about

48:48

you being a part of one of the

48:50

hottest Hollywood couples in

48:54

streets. Let's talk about the

48:56

trip that you and first

48:58

lady evangelists

49:00

keep profitless. For

49:02

Missionary Christy Teigen that

49:04

y'all have this popping in the

49:06

Hollywood streets. Now both your

49:08

joys and tragedies have been a part of

49:10

the public business. And

49:12

y'all have been very open and

49:14

transparent. And it's been a beautiful thing because both of

49:16

y'all look good. You know, I'm

49:18

quite sure. Yeah. Male good,

49:20

you know, y'all just have this. They have been

49:22

flubed each other that just works. It's like, you

49:24

know, she is your person. You can tell

49:26

She's your person. Have you too been able to navigate all of

49:29

that and stay centered in your individual

49:31

lives and as a

49:34

couple because y'all get a lot of

49:36

love, y'all get a lot of shine and a

49:38

lot of regular people don't know what kind of

49:40

pressure that could put on a couple to

49:42

always be

49:42

on. To always be perfect. And so how do you, as John,

49:45

let you navigate that? Well,

49:47

part of

49:47

it is letting people know that we're not

49:50

perfect. And

49:52

I think part of the way

49:54

we communicate to the world is showing them a bit of real life,

49:56

you know. We obviously go to red

50:00

carpets and get dressed up.

50:02

We got to drift home, and we have

50:04

that. But we also just

50:06

live a a regular life with

50:08

our kids. Driving in the school in the morning, taking them to the

50:10

zoo, taking them to the museum, doing

50:12

what we do with our kids. We

50:14

cook at home all

50:16

the time, together. Obviously,

50:18

we're very blessed. We would live a very privileged

50:20

life, but so much of what we do

50:22

is just, you know, being a family. And

50:24

a lot of what we do on

50:26

social media is less about showing them perfection,

50:28

but showing them real life.

50:32

And the fact that even famous people, even people really successful

50:34

in their profession, still

50:37

live a real life And

50:39

in that way, we've shown a lot of

50:41

the joys of our family and what we

50:44

love to do together, but we also shared

50:46

some of our pain as well we're

50:48

truly in that sense ordinary people.

50:50

And, you know, I know that was my first big

50:52

song, but all of us deal with

50:54

these ups and downs in life. All of us deal

50:56

with these challenges in

50:58

life, and we haven't

51:00

shied away from sharing something. We don't

51:02

share everything. I I know sometimes

51:04

people feel like you might be sharing a lot,

51:06

but honestly, we keep plenty to

51:08

ourselves. But we do

51:10

share plenty as well.

51:12

And I think part of it

51:14

is because I make my living writing songs about love and

51:16

about family and about

51:18

our human connection. And

51:20

Chrissy makes a living as a

51:22

good entrepreneur. Writing

51:24

cookbooks and selling things that go on people's home.

51:26

And so we show people part of

51:28

our home life because it inspires our

51:30

work life and it's part of our

51:34

work life. And so we do share that stuff. And

51:36

hopefully, people realize that we are

51:38

all human beings. We

51:40

all have emotions.

51:42

We all through pain. We

51:44

all go through challenges. And hopefully, people feel that connection with us.

51:50

That's right. Yes,

51:52

sir. I have one more question, John.

51:54

When it comes to marriage, being a

51:57

child of divorce, does

52:00

it haunt you

52:02

as you navigate being a married

52:04

man? Like, do you have sometimes

52:07

anxiety and fear based on

52:10

what you saw as a young

52:11

man? I would

52:14

not say anxiety and fear. I think

52:16

both Chrissy and my parents are divorced, and we see plenty

52:19

of divorce in Hollywood. We see

52:21

it in our news. And

52:23

when we see that it

52:25

makes us easier to resolve to stick

52:27

it out and no matter

52:30

what we're going

52:32

through and

52:33

no matter what challenges

52:36

we face, we feel

52:39

like we're strong enough together to make

52:41

it through that. And we don't wanna get divorced. Like, we don't want

52:43

our kids splitting time between us. We don't want

52:45

that kind of rift in

52:48

our relationship. And we

52:50

believe we are gonna fight

52:52

for our relationship no matter what.

52:54

And I think that resolve partly

52:57

comes from seeing the negative side of divorce --

52:59

Mhmm. -- with our families and other people in

53:01

our lives. And I

53:04

don't feel like we've ever had

53:08

conflicts

53:08

between us that have

53:10

felt like they weren't resolved. We've

53:12

had challenges that were difficult for

53:15

us to face together but we actually

53:17

face them together. We fought for each other. We fought

53:19

for our relationship together. And

53:21

I just pray that we continue to do

53:23

that and hopefully we

53:26

will. Listen, man, that was encouraging to me because I can mess

53:28

and tell you, and I'll be very transparent

53:30

because I've been married in January twenty

53:34

seven years. And there is an eye rise of divorce right now

53:36

in the Christian community. It's off the

53:38

charts right now. Right? And

53:40

it scares me. You know, it it

53:42

can shake me into my core to see

53:44

people, you know, that, I guess, others

53:46

would automatically assume what have

53:48

these tools and these pre steps to be able

53:50

to

53:51

make

53:51

it. I think people have to go to

53:53

therapy. They need counseling. Like, they need

53:55

-- Mhmm. -- to

53:58

address whatever issues. Because a

54:00

lot of our issues aren't due

54:02

to the person we're with. They're

54:04

due to stuff that -- Yeah. -- from

54:06

childhood, from what we saw with our parents. There's --

54:08

Yeah. -- from what we saw that kind

54:10

of help form our personalities as kids. We have to

54:12

deal with those things in

54:14

order to be the best partners that we can

54:16

be. And

54:18

so folks a lot of times

54:20

we'll give up on a

54:22

relationship without doing the work

54:24

necessary to become the best

54:26

partner they can be voice

54:28

is right, you know. Sometimes it's the thing that

54:30

needs to happen -- Mhmm. -- because there's abuse,

54:32

there's harm, and done. Yeah. Yeah. And the

54:34

only way for you to live

54:37

and peace and we have the best

54:39

life you can live is without that

54:41

person.

54:41

But I believe I'm

54:44

with the person I'm to be with. Beautiful.

54:46

And I believe that I'm going

54:48

to fight for our relationship no

54:50

matter what. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.

54:53

And that's what makes you very inspiring

54:55

as a songwriter, as a

54:57

person, as an activist, And

54:59

so I would love for you to tell me about this master

55:02

class that you're doing. And I can't believe

55:04

folks are gonna have access to all of

55:06

this knowledge in

55:08

way. Is there a lesson in this master class that you wish you had

55:10

when you were first developing as a

55:12

songwriter? Well,

55:13

the whole master

55:15

class is on songwriting and really breaking down

55:17

my process, breaking down

55:20

how I get inspired, but also the

55:22

methodology of crafting a song,

55:26

all the, you know, the more kind of theoretical aspects

55:28

of what it is to create a

55:30

song, what different sections of a song mean,

55:33

and then my own unique way of crafting a

55:36

song where I start by mumbling the

55:38

melody and not knowing the lyric

55:40

yet and finding my way to the lyric based on

55:42

the music and everybody

55:44

writes differently. But I

55:46

explain what my process is and how

55:48

to incorporate that into any

55:51

other songwriters' process. And I break down some of my

55:53

biggest songs, whether it's ordinary people,

55:56

or all of me, or glory,

55:58

or any of these songs. I

56:00

talk about

56:01

how I wrote those songs, how I was

56:04

inspired, the structure, and the process

56:06

that went into it. And I think

56:08

anybody who

56:09

enjoys or aspires to write

56:12

music. This will be a good

56:14

class for them so they can understand a

56:16

bit of how I work. I

56:18

need for you to also tell

56:20

me how does it

56:22

feel to know that

56:24

this young

56:26

talented church boy from where you

56:28

from. 0I0,

56:30

hell. Now you are on

56:34

stage and Vegas. Like like

56:36

you gotta tell me what that

56:38

was for you bro when you jumped

56:40

on stage in Vegas and people

56:43

that come in a see

56:45

you and you got your shirt, you know, all the way button down to your belly

56:47

button. I see you. I see you. If

56:49

you got your taco meat showing

56:52

and you you don't think you got your seven eight. Yes, sir. You got your

56:54

seven eight necklaces home, but

56:56

you're killing it though. Like, what was

56:59

that for you like when your mom and daddy came to

57:01

see you and and the cousins, ma'am, will come out

57:04

to Vegas and see they

57:06

boy.

57:07

Calendar in Vegas. I love

57:10

it. We put

57:12

so much energy and creativity into

57:14

doing this show. It's the biggest show

57:16

we've ever done. We've never done production at

57:19

this level. When we were on tour or anywhere else,

57:21

we put it all into

57:23

this residency. And whenever

57:25

my family comes, they're like, wow. This is

57:28

the best thing we've ever seen you do.

57:30

Honestly, they're like mixing so many of

57:32

my tours and so many my

57:34

shows and they loved them.

57:36

But this Vegas show was just on another

57:38

level. And part of it is just

57:40

we just invested a lot

57:42

into making the stage show

57:44

and the choreography and

57:46

everything just topnotch. But

57:48

part of it's also

57:50

because my approach to creating the show was to really

57:52

tell my story from the

57:54

beginning to now. And so

57:56

we incorporate songs from every album

57:59

we talk about me coming up in the

58:02

church. Our first scene in the show

58:04

is me as a

58:06

little kid, with actors.

58:08

A kid playing me and a older lady

58:10

playing my grandmother and

58:12

just pointing to the influence that

58:14

she had on me and at the church had

58:16

on me and then just going from

58:18

there my whole journey from the church

58:20

to Philly and New York to

58:24

my career to Vegas and all that has led us

58:26

to. And so the whole show is a

58:28

celebration of that entire journey. And it's

58:30

truly me

58:32

being grateful for

58:34

this journey and and celebrating it on stage.

58:36

Now is there a secret, John, and

58:39

it's a serious question. Is

58:41

there a secret to how

58:44

or what it is you use

58:46

that lets the taco meat hair

58:48

on your chest lay down smoothly on stage

58:50

so that when the light hits it, Like,

58:52

it's got, like, a little wave to it. Like, what do you do to

58:55

prepare before the show just to

58:57

get that man, chest

59:00

hair, to cannot just be

59:02

smooth and waving like that. What exactly is

59:04

that the people want to know? I'm deaf with

59:06

you. Yeah. Tell me

59:08

about your latest album, man. What is the inspiration about this album,

59:10

Kim? Well, the album's called Legend. It's

59:12

a double album. And, you know,

59:14

all the stuff we've been talking about, that's

59:18

my life. And I put my lights on this album,

59:20

and I wanted to call a legend because I

59:22

felt like That's a great day. This

59:24

was myself. This

59:26

was my self titled album. This was the album that

59:28

really fully represents who

59:30

I am as a person and

59:33

my loves in life, my aspirations in life,

59:36

and I had a lot of time during

59:38

the pandemic when we went on

59:40

the road. To really create this double album.

59:42

And I wanted to put it all out there for people

59:44

and hopefully people are really enjoying it.

59:46

I'm loving the feedback

59:48

we're getting. Loving

59:50

the connection that we're feeling. We're playing a few of the song in the Vegas,

59:52

and I'm just loving the

59:54

response we're getting to the music.

59:57

I am a fan.

59:59

I am humbled. Ladies

1:00:01

and gentlemen, help me

1:00:03

thank you. And

1:00:06

in me, grammy, Oscar, Tony, and it's

1:00:08

only I think I could come

1:00:10

from on it's I don't think there's three

1:00:12

African Americans that

1:00:14

have before. What is what is

1:00:16

it? Three African Americans.

1:00:18

Me, Jennifer Hudson, and Wuppie

1:00:20

Goldberg. I'm the only black man.

1:00:22

Yes. And Yes. It's

1:00:24

rare rare company to be a part of.

1:00:26

Ladies and gentlemen, you

1:00:28

just heard greatness from somebody

1:00:30

who has experience greatness and made

1:00:32

greatness. Help me celebrate somebody

1:00:34

that's gonna be here for a long,

1:00:36

long time.

1:00:38

Thank you, sir. John Legend. Thank

1:00:40

you, brother. God bless you. Thank you,

1:00:44

Kate. So

1:00:48

thank you all so much for listening to GoodWorse,

1:00:50

man. I hope you are enjoying yourself over here.

1:00:52

Man, and join the journey that taking

1:00:55

with your boy. And if you are, please do me a

1:00:58

favor. Leave a review on your

1:01:00

favorite podcast app. Can you do that for

1:01:02

me? I'd appreciate and don't

1:01:04

you forget, you could never go too far.