0:01

In the end, the world, as it often does,

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will muddle through these problems. But what I'm really

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the political domestic response will

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be of everyday Israelis to

0:12

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0:14

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Health Matters is available on Apple

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Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. On

1:37

Monday, May 20, the chief

1:39

prosecutor of the International Criminal

1:41

Court, Karim Khan, applied

1:44

for arrest warrants for three

1:46

senior Hamas leaders and

1:48

for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

1:51

Netanyahu and his defense minister,

1:53

Yoav Gallant. The

1:55

Hamas. Leaders include the top official in Gaza, Yaya

1:57

Sinwar, and the top official in Gaza, Yaya Yassinwar.

2:00

Hamas is military commander Muhammad

2:02

Day of and his smile

2:04

funnier the Qatar based political

2:06

leader of Hamas. These three

2:09

men were charged with crimes

2:11

related to the October Seventh

2:13

Attack and their treatment of

2:15

hostages in captivity. On

2:18

Israeli side, Netanyahu and the

2:20

want were charged with war

2:22

crimes and crimes against humanity,

2:25

including using starvation as a

2:27

method of warfare. This.

2:30

Was a fairly earth shattering moment

2:32

in the history of the International

2:34

Criminal Court. But for those of

2:36

you who subscribe to the Global

2:39

Dispatches newsletter, you'll know that I've

2:41

been expecting this particular shoe to

2:43

drop since November when term com

2:46

First War and Hamas in Israeli

2:48

officials that his office has jurisdiction

2:50

in relation to this conflict. Well.

2:53

This icy see action has now

2:55

happened. In on the line with

2:57

me to discuss what this application

3:00

for arrest warrants means and where

3:02

this I see see case may

3:04

be headed. Next is Mark Kirsten.

3:07

See as an assistant professor of

3:09

Criminal Justice and Criminology at the

3:11

University of these Fraser Valley in

3:13

British Columbia and specializes in International

3:15

law. He's. Also a senior

3:17

consultant at the Way Amo Foundation.

3:20

We. Kick off discussing the specific

3:23

charges leveled against these five

3:25

men, and then have a

3:27

broader conversation about the impact

3:29

this action by the I

3:31

see see may have on

3:33

the trajectory of this conflict.

3:36

I dare say you're not find a

3:38

more informed conversation about the I see

3:40

see from any other podcast out there

3:42

so I trust you will learn from

3:44

this. I have been covering the International

3:46

Criminal Court as one of the poor

3:49

parts of my be for nearly as

3:51

long as the court has been in

3:53

existence. And Mark person is

3:55

always one of my go to experts

3:57

on all things I see see. To

4:01

support Global Dispatches in our

4:03

continuing coverage of International

4:05

justice, please become a paying

4:08

supporter to Global Dispatches at

4:10

Global dispatches.org You can

4:12

sign up for the news

4:15

letter there and also support

4:17

our work with your

4:19

paid contributions. Thank you. Know

4:23

here is my conversation with

4:25

Mark: Kristin. What?

4:44

Were the charges

4:46

that Prosecutor Khan

4:48

is seeking against

4:51

these five individuals?

4:54

In relation to this, three

4:56

members of Hamas. There

4:59

was a mixture of crimes against humanity

5:01

and war crimes, including extermination as a

5:04

crime against humanity, Murder as a crime

5:06

against humanity, Taking hostages is a war

5:08

crime. Rape and sexual. Violence.

5:10

As Crimes Against Humanity and war

5:12

Crimes Torture as a crime against

5:15

Humanity and a war crime. Other

5:17

inhumane acts as a crime against

5:19

humanity, cruel treatment as a war

5:21

crime and outrages upon personal dignity

5:23

as a war crime which is

5:26

often a rages on for some

5:28

things in a mighty you know

5:30

like posing for photographs, what the

5:32

deceased are doing, something with the

5:34

deceased with someone has been killed

5:36

and then in relation to the

5:38

Israeli officials Benjamin Netanyahu, the Premise

5:40

Air and you are Golan the

5:42

Minister of Defense. There's also a

5:44

combination of war crimes and crimes

5:47

against. Humanity. That's.

5:49

The Isis you prosecutors seeking charges

5:51

for including starvation as a method

5:53

of warfare as a war crime.

5:56

And. willfully causing great suffering or serious injury

5:58

to the body or house as

6:00

a war crime or cruel treatment as a

6:02

war crime, willful killing as a war crime,

6:05

murder as a war crime, intentionally

6:07

directing attacks against civilians as

6:09

a war crime, extermination and

6:11

or murder as a

6:14

crime against humanity, persecution and other

6:16

inhumane acts as crimes against humanity.

6:19

And one thing that I kind of wanna emphasize

6:21

is that since October 7th, but

6:23

even before that too, but especially since October 7th

6:25

and all of these crimes relate to things that

6:28

have happened since October 7th and

6:31

subsequently is that our emphasis

6:33

has been on war crimes. And

6:35

to a certain extent, because of the case

6:37

at the International Board of Justice on this

6:40

question of genocide and

6:44

what we haven't been thinking about enough or

6:46

perhaps paying enough attention. And I mentioned this

6:48

months ago too, is this idea of crimes

6:51

against humanity. Can you just distinguish

6:53

the two for those who aren't familiar, what is

6:55

the difference between a war crime and a crime

6:57

against humanity? There's overlap and as I listed the

6:59

kind of things that these individuals have been charged

7:01

with, I noted a couple of that are being

7:04

charged as both a war crime and a crime

7:06

against humanity, but the context

7:08

in which they happen and the legal rules

7:10

around them are different. So a war

7:13

crime has to be an international

7:15

crime that is committed in

7:17

the context of a non-international

7:19

armed conflict or an

7:21

international armed conflict. And actually the ICC

7:24

prosecutor in his request for warrants stated

7:27

clearly that he had found both,

7:29

that there's an international armed conflict

7:31

between Palestine and Israel and

7:34

a non-international armed conflict between

7:36

Israel and Hamas. And

7:38

that's important because right now, starvation

7:40

as a method of warfare is

7:44

a war crime only in non-international

7:46

armed conflicts, not international armed conflict.

7:49

So he found both. And

7:52

so a war crime has to be

7:54

committed in the context of an armed

7:56

conflict And then is governed

7:58

by a series of very. The important

8:00

rule. So obviously you can't

8:03

direct attacks against civilians. That's

8:05

clear. But. Then different types

8:07

of attacks say on you

8:09

know, hospitals or clinics or

8:11

schools or parliament or whatever

8:13

it is our communities. It's.

8:16

It's a war crime. It

8:18

has to pass a number

8:20

of legal thresholds. Like was

8:22

a proportional, was ads militarily

8:24

necessary? Was their suspicions distinction

8:26

made between. People. Who can

8:28

be targeted So belligerence people actively

8:31

engaged in hostilities for civilians, etc.

8:33

Not. That's a very complex

8:35

space that is governed by international

8:37

humanitarian law to think of the

8:39

Geneva Conventions, etc and International Criminal

8:41

Law for the icy see under

8:43

the Rome Statute. And. Crimes

8:46

Against Humanity are different. So

8:48

Crimes Against Humanity are newer

8:50

historically then and for crimes

8:52

which date back. To. The

8:55

nineteenth century fight. Crimes.

8:58

Against Humanity and Genocide actually

9:00

emerged. That. A similar time.

9:03

But. With different kind of

9:05

theoretical thinking around what motivated

9:07

the crime. so obviously genocide

9:10

is focused on the group.

9:13

Are finding of genocide requires

9:15

a finding that. A

9:17

perpetrator intentionally sought to

9:19

destroy a particular group

9:22

in whole or in

9:24

part, and then. Did

9:26

Die right had actually acted it out.

9:29

Whereas. A Crime Against Humanity doesn't

9:31

focus so much on the group.

9:33

Instead, it's underlying theory is that

9:35

certain crimes. Are. So

9:37

terrible whether or not they happen

9:40

in context. Of war or

9:42

not in one some other form of.

9:44

Conflict. That doesn't amount to an armed

9:47

conflicts that they're so bad that they're actually

9:49

crimes, not only against the direct victims, but

9:51

they're also a crime against all of humanity.

9:53

So rather than focusing on the group, the

9:56

kind of. Suggests. That these

9:58

crimes are violation. Our shared

10:00

humanity and our shared ethos

10:03

as human beings. Silly. In

10:05

theory, you and I are

10:07

victims of a crime against

10:09

humanity or a crime against

10:11

humanity perpetrated by Hamas against

10:13

the Israelis. and then perpetrated

10:16

allegedly by Netanyahu. And go

10:18

on. the against the. Palestinians.

10:21

In Gaza, it like diminishes all of our

10:23

humanity when such things are are allowed to

10:25

app. And that's like the theoretical basis. Yeah,

10:28

so we don't actually have the standing as

10:30

victims, but the humanity is implicated in this

10:32

as opposed to just a direct. Victim

10:35

so to speak. So it is trying to

10:37

invoke the shared humanity as being violated in

10:39

and of itself. And then the rules around

10:41

crimes against humanity are also slightly different. So

10:44

we have these sweet of

10:47

charges that you've just described

10:49

your mostly stemming. On

10:51

the homicide of the Ledger

10:53

from a masses attacks on

10:55

October Seventh and the subsequent

10:58

kidnapping and treatment of hostages

11:00

and then on the Israeli

11:02

side of the Ledger crimes

11:04

allegedly stemming from the response

11:06

to October Seventh and I

11:08

see chief among them is

11:10

this alleged conspiracy to starve.

11:13

The. People of Gaza as

11:15

a method of war.

11:17

So procedurally what happens

11:20

next, We have an

11:22

application for these arrest

11:24

warrants. What? Is

11:27

now the icy see doing? So.

11:29

The ice is he has only asked

11:32

for arrest warrants to be issue and

11:34

he has to ask. The

11:37

pre trial chamber which is a

11:39

panel of three judges that has

11:41

to consume our take into account

11:43

as requests. And then they.

11:46

Those. Three judges will ultimately together

11:48

decide whether or not to

11:51

issue those. Arrests once

11:53

and a couple of things are

11:55

important to note in this respect.

11:58

One is the lead. test that

12:01

has to be passed. So

12:04

for the judges to issue the

12:06

warrants, they have to find that

12:08

there are reasonable grounds to believe

12:11

that the individuals listed in

12:13

the prosecutor's request

12:15

for arrest warrants have

12:17

committed the crimes that are also listed

12:19

in that request. So reasonable grounds to

12:21

believe and that's a very low threshold.

12:24

It's lower than the legal threshold that's

12:26

required to confirm charges against those individuals

12:29

and it's of course much much lower than

12:32

what is needed for conviction which is as

12:34

if people will know beyond the reasonable doubt

12:36

as it is in any criminal law process.

12:39

So the judges will have this information

12:41

now and they have to decide whether

12:43

there are reasonable grounds to believe this

12:46

low legal threshold that these individuals are

12:48

involved or responsible for the crimes in

12:50

the prosecutor's request. And

12:52

here it's important to note that

12:54

the prosecutor didn't kind of go

12:56

it alone or just use the

12:59

resources within his office. Prosecutor Kahn

13:01

put together a panel of experts

13:03

that included experts like Milan Markovic,

13:06

Amal Clooney and also

13:08

had the support of very senior

13:10

esteemed war crimes experts like

13:13

Kevin John Heller etc. and

13:15

they helped the prosecutor and

13:17

his team of investigators really

13:20

ensure that once they made

13:22

this request as they did

13:24

yesterday that it would

13:27

be as robust and ready

13:29

for the issuance of arrest warrants. So

13:31

it's quite significant the amount of work

13:34

that has been put into

13:36

this and of course many people were

13:38

frustrated with how much time the

13:40

ICC prosecutor was taken but the more important

13:42

thing is that he does things properly and

13:45

it appears that he did things properly.

13:47

I just say it wasn't that long of

13:49

a time. I mean since October 6th till

13:51

now is a very swift

13:54

process at least in terms of how

13:56

the ICC has historically acted. Absolutely.

14:00

right if you follow this stuff that it doesn't

14:02

seem that long. But then of course people are

14:04

wondering how long will it take these judges to

14:06

make their decision. Well that was going to be

14:08

my next question for you. Yeah, like historically what

14:10

do we know about how

14:13

long it takes pre-trial chamber

14:15

judges to confirm or deny

14:18

arrest warrants? Like what's an

14:20

average here? I don't

14:23

know what the average is but it really

14:25

depends on a couple of things. So one,

14:27

I think there'll be pressures

14:30

both ways. So I listed all of

14:32

the charges at the beginning in

14:34

response to your question which makes for a

14:36

more comprehensive request but also means that those

14:38

judges have to sift through all of the

14:41

information right. If you take the

14:43

example of Vladimir Putin who had an arrest

14:45

warrant issued for him in March I believe

14:47

of 2023, that was

14:50

on one charge. It was on the

14:52

war crime of forcibly

14:54

transferring Ukrainian children to

14:56

Russia or Russian held

14:58

territory and in that

15:01

instance I think it

15:03

took just under a month for the judges to

15:05

get the request and then issue

15:07

the arrest warrant. Here you have

15:09

five individuals, three from

15:11

Hamas and three from Israel and then

15:14

multiple charges both of war crimes and

15:16

crimes against humanity that are listed in

15:18

the prosecutor's request so it may take

15:20

more time. What the

15:22

judges can also do is if

15:24

they're not sure about something in

15:27

the request they can absolutely go

15:29

back to the prosecutor and ask

15:32

for clarification. So while I think

15:34

that it's virtually guaranteed that the

15:36

arrest warrants will be issued the

15:38

exact time is really hard

15:40

to say. So to

15:43

what extent do judges in

15:45

this stage of the process

15:47

weigh the principle of complementarity.

15:49

This is an idea underpinning

15:51

the International Criminal Court that

15:53

basically Stipulates that the

15:56

ICC is a court of last resort

15:58

that only takes action. When

16:00

national or local jurisdictions are unable

16:02

or unwilling to take action. Now

16:05

with the State of Palestine and

16:07

in Gaza particular, there's no likes

16:09

functioning judiciary to take on that

16:11

the prosecution of Hamas. Whereas in

16:14

Israel I mean there is a

16:16

functioning judiciary that frankly has prosecuted

16:18

this very sitting Prime Minister Netanyahu

16:21

used in the midst of a

16:23

few criminal trials to there is

16:25

like eight in theory, at least

16:28

a functioning judiciary. There. Are

16:31

pre trial chamber judges.

16:33

Considering. Complementarity at all. He

16:36

assessments are the A description I should

16:38

say of complementarity is right that the

16:41

second stage at the first stage of

16:43

the complementarity tests. Were. As

16:45

states or an individual who is

16:47

facing prosecution of the Ice is,

16:49

he can challenge the admissibility of

16:51

that case or investigation. The

16:54

first part of the test is actually is

16:56

the state actors. And then

16:58

if the state is active than

17:00

the question is. Is. Is

17:02

able and willing to conduct

17:04

as investigations and prosecutions in

17:06

a genuine. Manner. So.

17:09

At this point. That's.

17:11

Not the case rights and to go

17:13

back to how complementarity works, it has

17:16

to be by the same person. And.

17:18

For the same underlying contact. So

17:20

what that means? Is

17:22

that in order to

17:24

challenge the admissibility of

17:26

the case again same

17:28

Benjamin Netanyahu. At the Ice

17:31

is the and say the stuff can be done

17:33

in Israeli courts in the Israeli justice system. Than.

17:36

The Israeli justice system would

17:38

would have to open investigation

17:40

into Benjamin Netanyahu for the

17:42

same conduct. That. The Ice

17:44

is he prosecutor is alleging so all

17:47

of those various things. They don't have

17:49

to be war crimes and crimes against

17:51

humanity, but it has to be the

17:53

same underlying conduct that he is engaged

17:56

in which the icy Prosecutor. Is.

17:58

Calling war crimes and crimes. The Against

18:00

Humanity and If. A

18:03

justice system is enact is.

18:06

Then there is no complementarity test.

18:08

To be mad whatsoever, there's

18:11

no admissibility challenge to need.

18:14

Because there's nothing happening seat and hot

18:16

a Cadillac Justice system. But if it's

18:18

an active. Than. It doesn't matter.

18:20

The other thing is, in order to

18:22

issue that admissibility challenge. Israel. Would

18:25

have to do something that I'm not sure

18:27

it really wants to do. The extent to

18:29

which you would have to do this is

18:31

kind of up for debate. Borrowed actually have

18:34

the recognizes that the Ice to see procedures

18:36

and investigations were valid and therefore officially. Challenge.

18:40

It's. In a

18:42

legal admissibility challenge, that

18:44

word. Indirectly. Or directly

18:46

recognize the ice you see as illegitimate

18:48

institution in this conflict. He.

18:50

Has a stuttering so like just because.

18:53

You're. Netanyahu's getting prosecuted fully campaign

18:55

finance shenanigans in Israeli courts.

18:57

The fact that there's no like

18:59

open investigation into a war

19:01

crimes suggests that the Is really

19:04

court system is not up

19:06

to that particular task. So you

19:08

think that it's almost certain

19:10

that these charges will be confirmed,

19:13

that arrest warrants will be

19:15

issued, Can I just

19:17

have you just articulate what you

19:19

for see to be some of

19:21

the real world consequences of arrest

19:24

warrants being issued for these five

19:26

meant like look this is not

19:29

like the first rodeo the icy

19:31

see in going after both non

19:33

state actors like Hamas know or

19:36

heads of state like Benjamin Netanyahu

19:38

like. We. Sort of know what to

19:40

expect. So what do you foresee being some of

19:42

the. Bigger. Implications

19:44

in the real world of these

19:46

actions. Yeah, son of hard

19:49

to compare the situation that is because

19:51

of the particular state and it's relationship

19:53

to western states. expand on called the

19:56

situation the San Andreas Fault of International

19:58

Relations A.right And and he. That's

20:00

right, she's standing on it. Exactly

20:02

standing on a the he's receiving.

20:04

Threats. And to Monday

20:06

shannon. Interventions.

20:09

Left, right and center from elected leaders

20:11

and and others are an awful lot

20:13

of support. So.

20:15

I mean, I think it'll be. The gamut.

20:18

It'll run. The gamut you will see.

20:20

The. United States which is already

20:22

acting you know rather I

20:24

would say with a degree

20:26

of hysteria in response to

20:28

that Prosecutors a class. Why

20:31

they continued to threaten things like

20:33

sanctions and the ride the icy

20:35

see on these matters is kind

20:37

of. And I'll never fully

20:39

understand. and in the sense that every time

20:42

they do that much of the rest of

20:44

the world things fall. Of course the United

20:46

States is gonna be livid about this. and

20:48

if the United States is live it about

20:50

this doesn't That suggests that the prosecutors doing.

20:53

The right things. Spoken like

20:55

a true Canadian. Or

20:58

yeah, I'm curious actually, were Canada

21:00

says because Canada actually hasn't issued

21:02

a statement yet. So we'll see.

21:05

Max. I wasn't thinking so much of Canada old.

21:07

I think it will have that impact but more

21:09

you know in. The. Vast majority

21:11

of the quote unquote, global South,

21:14

etc so I think they'll be

21:16

those types of reactions. I

21:18

think. Geopolitically, it could

21:20

have some implications. A lot

21:23

of that depends on the

21:25

kind of consumption. Of

21:27

these arrest warrants on top of

21:29

everything else. On. Top of

21:32

the International Court of Justice case on

21:34

top of the denial of aid and

21:36

various tax and news media coverage etc

21:38

and how all of that is consumed.

21:41

By the Israeli public. And.

21:44

The Israeli Opposition. I mean, you

21:46

know, Netanyahu's not a particularly popular

21:48

person in Israel. The Lines is

21:51

not a particularly popular person poetically

21:53

in Israel either. And I think

21:55

there's an open question as to

21:57

you know how. Well.

22:00

The. We're. Really public response

22:02

to these icy see arrest

22:04

warrants. A that kind of

22:06

domestic political scene. I think most will be

22:09

upset about this. Most will oppose the Ice

22:11

is he and his arrest warrants. For.

22:13

Lots of different reasons, including the kind of

22:15

media that they'll be consuming around it. But.

22:18

They also have to make a decision

22:20

as to how this makes. The.

22:22

Israeli governments and therefore the state

22:24

of here and whether indeed they

22:26

want. To. Be led by. Two.

22:29

Individuals and parts who aren't

22:32

only now implicated in these.

22:35

atrocities, By way of

22:37

the International. Criminal. Court

22:39

but also who. Will

22:42

not legally at least be allowed to

22:44

travel to one hundred and twenty four

22:46

states around the world who have signed

22:49

on to the International Criminal Courts from

22:51

statute So. I. Think I'll be lots

22:53

of impacts. I think it'll run the gamut.

22:56

I tend to think that if you

22:58

take the most extreme views there's the

23:01

least correct is someone thinks is this

23:03

will ruin peace. In. The Middle

23:05

East. That's not sure if someone thinks that

23:07

this will bring about peace. I also think

23:09

that's not true. If someone thinks of this

23:11

will break the world of international law. I

23:14

don't think that's true. and if anyone thinks

23:16

of this will save the world of international

23:18

law. I also don't think that's true. So

23:20

I think. In. The End

23:22

The World. As it often does, we'll

23:24

muddle through these problems. But what I'm

23:27

really looking out for is how exactly

23:29

the political domestic response will be. As.

23:31

Everyday Israelis to a government that is

23:33

now legally implicated in all of this.

23:35

I mean that that. Question.

23:37

Of is really domestic politics.

23:40

I think is is really

23:42

interesting because the of just

23:44

a week ago go on

23:46

and Netanyahu were very publicly

23:48

feuding over the strategy in

23:50

Gaza with galore and saying

23:52

publicly that Netanyahu has no

23:54

plans for strategy for securing

23:57

at places in Gaza that

23:59

Israel click. You have

24:01

read from Hamas and that like

24:03

the two options are perpetual. Israeli.

24:06

Occupation or Hamas taking over both of

24:08

which are bad and that Netanyahu has

24:10

no strategy to the ladder than the

24:13

to me as a shot back and

24:15

to these two are feuding pretty viciously

24:17

publicly A week ago now they're like

24:19

lumped together both the as targets of

24:22

an icy see investigation. What's interesting to

24:24

me is. How. You

24:26

would distinguish between the ways

24:29

in which in I C

24:31

C weren't if it is

24:33

issued impacts the strategic thinking

24:35

or ability of Netanyahu or

24:38

Golan to to move around

24:40

in this world as opposed

24:42

to that of the three

24:44

senior Hamas leaders. I mean

24:47

knows, We're clear Hamas as

24:49

a terrorist organization. Israel is

24:51

a Western style democracy how

24:53

they approach these kinds. Of

24:56

international legal actions is going to

24:58

differ. So as I've seen a

25:00

lot of speculation discussion along the

25:02

lines of what you just said

25:05

about how know Netanyahu and and

25:07

Glaad will be able to go

25:09

to any countries that are signatories

25:11

of the I see see how

25:14

it will release or not malign

25:16

them internationally. It's hard for me

25:18

to imagine that same. Applies

25:21

to Hamas in the Hamas

25:23

leaders. How do you expect

25:25

these warrants to. Have

25:28

any sort of real world impact

25:30

on Hamas? Yeah. It's

25:32

a good question, and obviously for

25:34

both Hamas and for Israeli officials.

25:36

Just because Isis Eu member states

25:38

have a legal obligation to enforce

25:40

arrest warrants, As. We know from

25:43

history and and the travels of former

25:45

Sudanese President Omar Al Bashir does not

25:47

mean that they will actually do it

25:49

right in both instances. But. We.

25:52

Don't know, We don't have an example yet. I.

25:55

Agree that this kind of travel

25:57

problem is less likely to impact.

26:00

Because of where they're located, you know,

26:02

don't think Qatar is going to act

26:04

on these Arrest warrants are some of

26:07

the are you know if they traveled

26:09

to Iran or whatever. they're not an

26:11

ad in forces arrest warrants book One

26:13

thing is at least worth while looking

26:15

out for. Which. Is that

26:18

late last month in

26:20

April, Lebanon move towards

26:22

accepting the Ice issues

26:24

jurisdiction. And. That.

26:26

May not create in media it's

26:28

obligations on Lebanon, which is not

26:30

a member state of the icy

26:32

sheath to kind of enforce any

26:35

arrest warrants should Hamas perpetrators. And

26:37

up on their territory. Fights.

26:39

If that continues to develop and Lebanon

26:42

dogs join the ice, you see or

26:44

does. Kind. Of end up in

26:46

a situation where. The. Public feels

26:48

compelled to support the ice you

26:50

see in a meaningful way. That.

26:53

I think Lebanon could play a very

26:55

significant role both potential with the enforcement

26:57

of arrest warrants again for a hypothetical

26:59

and maybe I'm being too old for

27:01

here, but it could potentially play that

27:03

role. And. As well, obviously

27:05

there have been allegations of international

27:07

crimes committed not only by Israel,

27:09

but by groups like Hezbollah. In

27:12

and Lemon On and so. You.

27:14

Know one thing I would say Mark? would you know?

27:16

We've known each other and been talking about these issues

27:19

for. A. Long time and

27:21

I think one of the few

27:23

things. That. I.

27:25

Think is true of this. Crazy

27:28

world of International Criminal law is

27:30

that when things happen. The.

27:33

Typically happen when.

27:35

No. One expects them to. I mean, in

27:38

terms of you know, people actually being arrested

27:40

and brought to the Icy. See, there are

27:42

very few instances where I had any clue

27:44

that an individual would end up at the

27:47

Icy after an arrest warrant was issued and

27:49

I follow this. I think you know as

27:51

closely as I possibly can and have for

27:53

many years, so there's a degree and unpredictable

27:56

be a lady here. That makes

27:58

it very difficult to kind. Take out

28:00

that crystal mall and say well he's will

28:02

be the implications for this group and these

28:04

will be the implications for that group. At.

28:07

Really remains to be seen and

28:09

just like with lemon on potentially

28:11

accepting I see see jurisdiction. Over.

28:14

International crimes. There are

28:16

these political changes that

28:18

may seem smaller, may

28:20

seem kind of. Desperate

28:23

or whatever you want, call them. That

28:25

might actually end up having significant consequences

28:27

in the future. If all of

28:29

that kind of quote unquote stars align and

28:31

for an arrest to an enforcement of and

28:33

reference and friends as the icy. So.

28:37

You're here in the United

28:39

States. We've seen. A

28:41

very consistent response.

28:44

Bought a. Your. American

28:46

political leaders across the

28:48

spectrum from Biden in

28:51

blink into Republicans in

28:53

Congress really sort of

28:55

beside themselves. that. The

28:58

Icy See would take

29:00

actions against both Israeli

29:02

leaders and Hamas leaders.

29:05

Calling. Them through of equivalent that

29:07

there would be some sort of

29:10

equivalence between Israel, a democratically elected

29:12

country and Hamas, a terrorist organization.

29:15

As. You're reading these remarks even

29:17

from President Biden himself. What's

29:19

coming across your mind? Like

29:21

how are you approaching this

29:23

question of the so called

29:26

equivalence. Yeah. I mean my

29:28

overall impression is that it. These comments have

29:30

nothing to do with equivalence. I

29:32

don't think. Joe Biden or that

29:35

doesn't or whatever the half dozen

29:37

or whatever it is doesn't. Congress

29:39

people who are anti Isis, the

29:41

an anti Accountability and those who

29:43

are putting out this thread as

29:45

equivalent. Same. I. Don't think

29:47

they would be satisfied if the

29:49

ice is. He issued a thousand

29:51

arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and

29:53

one for an Israeli government official.

29:55

I think there's every reason to

29:57

believe what they mean by you.

30:00

This rhetoric of equivalency is just only

30:02

go for Hamas. Do Not. Endorse

30:05

anything but impunity for

30:07

Israeli officials. That's

30:09

how I read it, knowing what those

30:12

very same individuals have said in the

30:14

past and where they stand And you

30:16

know the anti Palestinian an anti accountability

30:19

rhetoric that they have endorsed and at

30:21

the same time you know from a

30:23

legal perspective are some just understanding how

30:26

the Ice is. He works. The.

30:28

Isis. He doesn't compare

30:30

perpetrators. There's. Nothing in the

30:32

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

30:34

that says. He. Know at

30:37

this stage the prosecutors should weigh.

30:39

Balance. Between different sets of perpetrators

30:41

mean that's that's not how law works

30:44

as and certainly not how International criminal

30:46

law works. What you do is simply

30:48

say okay, There's an individual whose suspected

30:50

of having committed. Atrocity

30:52

Accent atrocity. Why? We.

30:55

Have to follow the evidence and

30:57

is not specific Individual. Can.

30:59

Be found to have committed those

31:01

atrocities or that international crime lab

31:04

work. I'm not crime against humanity

31:06

than they are candidates to have

31:08

an arrest warrant issued against them

31:10

If there's any kind of equivalency.

31:13

That. I think the ice is he

31:16

can and should and in some

31:18

ways does do and perhaps is

31:20

doing better more now than before.

31:22

His equivalency between victims and survivors,

31:24

right? I don't think. Kids.

31:28

Who are. Just. Two kids do

31:30

not starve differently because of the color

31:32

of the skin and the nationality of.

31:35

That they come from Or that the flag.

31:37

Of the country they're from, other states

31:40

have they're from. they don't die differently

31:42

from. Ah. Victims.

31:44

And survivors in my view, deserve

31:46

equal access to accountability and justice

31:48

for the atrocity crimes that are

31:50

committed against them. And

31:52

so. I. Think any suggestion

31:54

to the contrary risks simply not

31:57

being about equivalency at all, and

31:59

that. They said before is

32:01

really just. A red

32:03

herring. Arguments for impunity.

32:06

I mean. Democratically. Elected leaders

32:08

can indeed commit war crimes in

32:11

if they do is they ought

32:13

to be held accountable just as

32:15

leaders of terrorist organizations or to

32:18

be held accountable if the political

32:20

system that drives them to power

32:22

does not absolve the let them

32:25

have their responsibility for following international

32:27

Humanitarian law. I mean, presumably in

32:29

a democratic system, you'd have local

32:32

courts take up the case, but

32:34

as we're seeing, that's not what's

32:36

happening. Israel. Right now. unfortunately. Yeah.

32:39

I mean, that would obviously be the ideal

32:41

as some kind of transformational moments where there

32:43

is. Active legitimate investigations

32:45

and prosecutions by the Israeli authorities.

32:48

But I mean, you know, we're

32:50

at a stage now where. I

32:52

any to individuals have not been targets

32:55

as Isis. He warrants being requested by

32:57

the prosecutor at least not publicly. Maybe

32:59

they're under seal by you know where?

33:01

at the stage where. People. Like

33:04

Ben Greer, minister, Benazir administers

33:06

motor it's can. Invoke.

33:08

Genocidal language repeatedly

33:10

And they're not

33:13

even. Take. It

33:15

out of cabinet let alone. Prosecuted.

33:18

For. The. Invocation of

33:20

horrific lead. Violence.

33:22

Language so. This

33:25

is what I'd say. It. Is unique.

33:28

That. In this type of democracy

33:30

although this is the first on the

33:32

as as intervene in democracies but where

33:34

does robust of a justice system and

33:36

I agree with you that in a

33:39

democracy like Israel has there is an

33:41

ideal. Where these international crimes

33:43

can and should be prosecuted. In.

33:46

Their own justice system, That. Would

33:49

absolutely be the ideal and it

33:51

isn't available option. To. The

33:53

Israeli authorities, whether or not it

33:55

takes up that opportunity. Remains.

33:57

To be seen and I don't think there's anything.

34:00

Just saying that they will anytime soon. Five.

34:02

It is. The appropriate response

34:04

of a democracy to these types of

34:07

allegations. Mark. Will

34:09

have to leave it there. Thank you so

34:11

much for your time Mark Thank you for

34:13

having me as always had the pleasure. Thanks

34:23

for listening to Liberal Dispatches! Show

34:25

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