0:07

Have. You ever had an office crash?

0:09

What about a work wire for a

0:12

work husband or how? But a full

0:14

blown office romance I have. There's something

0:16

about that fluorescent lighting, stale coffee, and

0:18

stuffy cubicles. It just turns people on

0:21

Apparently, as always is every on your

0:23

house. and today I'm joined by Liz

0:25

draw bosses general manager and Victoria girl

0:27

was a senior writer to talk about

0:30

workplace affairs. According to Forbes, over sixty

0:32

percent of people have had a workplace

0:34

romance at some point in their career.

0:36

In fact, today's. Guest who works at

0:39

actually Massive told us their biggest competitor

0:41

for budding affairs is the workplace. so

0:43

the pipeline from work romance to this

0:45

infamous dating website is something we are

0:47

going to pack today. And I mean

0:49

I guess it can be hot sneaking

0:51

around, stealing cases in the elevator, ensuring

0:53

spicy glances across the boardroom. Absolutely.

0:56

It is definitely one of our juicier

0:58

episodes, so I'm guessing you've heard of

1:01

Ashley Madison? Of course you have dared

1:03

the number One Married dating site with

1:05

more than eighty million members worldwide. Since

1:07

two thousand do I thought I read

1:10

that stock rom Eighty million members it's

1:12

available and fifty two countries and in

1:14

over fifteen language. As I'm sure you

1:17

remember, there twenty fifteen data breach were

1:19

more than Nine Point Seven gigabytes of

1:21

company data was publicly released, including information

1:23

on thirty two million users. It

1:26

caused quite a riff in many marriages,

1:28

so I'll tell you bit of the

1:30

back story of how this happened. So

1:32

in February I got an email from

1:34

Ashley Madison's team and they said the

1:36

Workplace is their number one competitor and

1:38

immediately I stopped what I was doing.

1:40

I forwarded it to Liz and Avery

1:43

and I was like. We. Need to

1:45

talk about this on a podcast so I'd love

1:47

to hear other your thoughts as well. So.

1:49

This is an interesting one, obviously. What's that?

1:51

The ethical quandaries aside, I think what's really

1:53

nice about this conversation is like every conversation

1:55

we try to have on this podcast we're

1:57

trying to be really nuanced, were leading with.

2:00

The ah city it would compassion not was

2:02

judgment what this reminds me of as I

2:04

used to work when my first jobs was

2:06

at L Canada Magazine, a women's fashion lifestyle

2:08

magazine and one of the articles a so

2:10

distinctly remember and I still think about it

2:12

to this day he published and Twenty Eighteen

2:14

It was written by a writer named Courtney

2:17

Say and it was called is Cheating the

2:19

secret to your happily ever after and it

2:21

actually framed women having extramarital affairs in cheating

2:23

quote unquote as a form. Of self care.

2:26

Now I know that's gonna raise some eyebrows. So I

2:28

actually pulled up this article. I google that and I

2:30

found that it still on the internet. The internet never forget

2:32

and I'm in a read. An excerpt from

2:34

this article. According. To studies from the

2:36

National Opinion Research Center at the University of

2:38

Chicago, rates of reported see mail infidelity spiked

2:41

by nearly forty percent between Ninety Ninety and

2:43

twenty ten was the stats as men have

2:45

moral A stayed the same. and while there

2:47

is no one reason why women or men

2:50

cheat, it does seem like the current circumstances

2:52

of our gender or of fact for some

2:54

namely that for women who feel suffocated by

2:56

the impossible expectations of modern womanhood are having

2:59

it all can see like not just an

3:01

opportunity but a mandate infidelity has emerged as

3:03

an unlikely but potentially effective release. Cheaper,

3:06

the moon's response easier than ever thanks to

3:08

the internet, and maybe not even at odds

3:10

with a happily ever after. So. Yeah,

3:12

that article came out six years ago and I

3:14

think it's still as relevant as ever. So many

3:17

the points they touch on are directly reflected in

3:19

this conversation today. And speaking of

3:21

articles, I read an article back. And twenty

3:23

twenty two. And. It was actually from the

3:25

Globe and Mail and that he talks about

3:27

how the pandemic field office romances from home.

3:29

So I think that the assumption is is

3:32

that office romances have may. Be teacher, you

3:34

shape the be. No not necessarily happening

3:36

as much because of remote and hybrid

3:38

were cultures. We definitely talk more about.

3:40

This and get some real data around it

3:42

in this conversation, but I know that with

3:44

the way that were communicating with one. Another

3:46

now I know for me when

3:48

I do some my little workplace

3:50

romance. It started on the Slack

3:52

channel. Yeah I remember like it was yesterday or

3:54

we all went for drinks and I came. Home

3:56

and I got this message via

3:59

our interns. Fi channel and it was

4:01

at like ten thirty at night, which is

4:03

obviously not the most appropriate time to message.

4:05

He sent me a message saying i can't

4:07

stop thinking about you and I remember my

4:09

whole yeah okay so I can see it

4:12

live in this races or a decimal. System

4:15

or something about your powerpoint skills. I

4:17

can give out how great your heart

4:19

excel. Know that's not what he Man,

4:21

that's not when a man and I

4:23

remember laying in bed at the time

4:25

next to this person. That I just literally

4:27

broken up with. We had a one bedroom

4:29

apartment, we had no the choices as our

4:32

current situation and we had this very open

4:34

dialogue at that point about this break up

4:36

the I was going through and he shared.

4:38

This with me and it was late. my

4:40

heart was pounding out of my chest because

4:43

not only was I ever on the receiving

4:45

end of like sweet little nothing's from this

4:47

colleague that like to get it via my

4:49

slack since I was just like what. Is. Going

4:51

off and. Something. That

4:53

Isabella touches on on this conversation and I'm curious

4:55

if this is the case for you? Is this

4:57

the idea of the city and proximity playing a huge

5:00

role? If you had met this coworker of yours in

5:02

a bar or just out in the world or

5:04

even if you scroll past know on a dating

5:06

app. Do. You think you would have still considered

5:08

him. So we're still friends.

5:10

I don't know if he listens to

5:12

grow boss. I'm hoping he doesn't hear

5:15

this, but absolutely not. No, absolutely not.

5:17

Even now knowing him more as a

5:19

person and being out of the vortex,

5:22

that was this wonderful workplace experience for

5:24

me. Where. Had lots of friends and we

5:26

we go for drinks we go for lunch

5:28

together. We had what was like the friends

5:30

clique if you well so it just felt

5:32

right assertiveness, little romance and it was hired.

5:34

We had a little secret the no one

5:36

else knew about the know. he was absolutely

5:38

not my type. she's definitely not my type

5:41

to this day. but because of the proximity

5:43

I got to know him in a unique

5:45

level and I just thought he was hilarious.

5:47

But outside of that it was an absolute

5:49

nightmare. Didn't last very long, Having

5:52

a little office crash that may or may not develop

5:54

into something more. Whether it's an affair or where there's

5:56

no cheating happening, any of those things are just. I think

5:58

we just one of the many ways. It will break

6:00

up the monotony of. Capitalist corporate

6:03

life. It's unique motivator. I remember

6:05

I would show up as my best

6:07

self every single day at that workplace

6:09

because I was very conscious of like

6:11

I was looking each day what I

6:13

was wearing shallows performing I want to

6:15

be celebrated I wanted this or an

6:17

essence around me so I really chill

6:19

that in that job because I was

6:21

not only wanting to perform in my

6:23

role but I was almost and a

6:25

wanting to perform for this crash that

6:27

I had. He wanted to see you

6:29

and your best way. Yeah. Up

6:31

in your step I think Victorian artists and

6:33

her being like well we've only ever works

6:36

in women's media, so we've only ever worked

6:38

with other women. So I can speak for

6:40

myself and says that there has never been

6:42

a viable prospect in an office environment because

6:44

it was others shallow fashion and beauty editors

6:46

is talking about shoes all that which is

6:48

so lovely but not the breeding ground for

6:50

a romance for me. Yeah. Same

6:53

here. and I remember there was

6:55

one man I worked at at

6:57

Interior Design Magazine and again a

6:59

guy that I would never consider

7:01

in my real dating life and

7:03

I remember was like oh my

7:06

gosh, there's a straight man in

7:08

the office. What are these feelings?

7:10

And. I actually the system t When

7:12

I was single again, I slid into

7:15

his Dm. After, where is all

7:17

they see what's going on and we're like

7:19

all no sex said it was the sole

7:21

of whereas I literally nice you have a

7:24

mailing then I'm like what were you thinking

7:26

It was just because he was like the

7:28

only straight male and he was really tall

7:30

and again that's just. The. Glasses Man.

7:33

That was enough. It was enough. It was

7:35

necessary. nothing. Have a now they outlive. I'm

7:37

with you on that. Yeah, our prospects are

7:39

slim. I think we shared plenty at this

7:41

point. I deathly one again to the conversation

7:43

and what better person to talk about workplace

7:46

affairs with? And Isabella, the senior. Director of

7:48

Communications and Ashley Madison which had about

7:50

why the workplace is the breeding ground

7:52

for affairs, the rise of non monogamy

7:54

and polyamory, and whether or not a

7:56

series still a dirty word Let's get

7:58

into it. Isabella

8:03

Welcome to Crowbar Radio I am very

8:05

said have this with you today. First

8:07

and foremost. High ceiling, I'm

8:09

feeling great! Thank you so much for having the I'm excited

8:11

to be here! I. Tunes resource. I

8:13

saw statistic of the number of members

8:15

a have on Ashley Madison and I

8:17

was. Shocked by the number to

8:19

new share with our listeners how

8:21

many people are currently on Ashley

8:23

madison.com. Absolutely so.

8:26

We are Canadian company, but we

8:28

are global and reads so we're

8:30

actually more than eighty eight million

8:32

members worldwide, more than fifteen different

8:34

language as countries all over the

8:36

world. it's bag. So. What? Eighty

8:38

Million people? Eighty Million members? Really?

8:40

I think that the question I really wanted to start

8:42

off with the is why is a fair. A

8:45

dirty word. I think it's

8:47

still justifiably miss. Sanders said.

8:49

Topic. I think from my

8:52

perspective. I'd had the opportunity over

8:54

the last five plus years of really.

8:56

Being a student on the topic, wow,

8:59

this is obviously a job. I think

9:01

I learned so much every day about

9:03

something that. Is happening with you. Side.

9:05

The So much though I think from that

9:08

perspective it's a matter of indictment charging seeking

9:10

to understand and are watching it with more

9:12

of a curiosity. But I think that for

9:14

a lot of people just their senior as

9:16

more black and white. Yeah.

9:18

I think that I really want to treat this

9:20

as one thing at a really. Interesting is

9:23

Yellen. Said that The Workplace is

9:25

Ashley Madison's biggest competitor. wise. We

9:28

say that when asked. Obviously there's so

9:30

many online dating sites out there and

9:32

three think he has some Soon as

9:34

we would consider another online dating. Back

9:36

perhaps a competitor but the truth ads

9:39

and it comes to insulate you the

9:41

workplace really is in a lot of

9:43

ways or biggest competitor because it's first

9:45

so many a sheriff's take place. really.

9:47

And even are members of joined a

9:49

lot of for hims their first. Entry

9:52

point into affairs has been

9:54

in their work. Can

9:56

you share with us of insights into the. Prevalence

9:59

of workplaces. This minds ashley

10:01

Madison members compared to other types

10:03

of affairs. The. We actually recently

10:05

did a study back and twenty twenty

10:07

three looking at the series Harper and

10:10

around forty two percent of our members

10:12

that it actually engaged in some four

10:14

months off. It's a fair and burrow

10:16

lot of them. What they found wipe

10:18

it just wasn't worth the rest. You

10:20

would probably agree that when you have

10:23

an affair in a professional environment, For

10:25

it just comes the lot more potential

10:27

for. Fall out that would ensure impact

10:29

your social by your family I but

10:31

also can impact again York. For yourself,

10:33

I think that while a lot

10:35

of members have reported that they

10:37

have at one point engage in

10:39

assets the fair they ultimately chose

10:41

to and Ashley Madison for more

10:44

discussion and with that same. Survey.

10:46

We also have that okay, if you

10:48

haven't had more unhappy, considerate, and more

10:50

than half reported that they had considered

10:52

having an officer there. So again, just

10:55

a lot of times I think that's

10:57

where those seeds are planted. Whether.

10:59

Or not you carry it out. I think that

11:01

the truth is, people just spend so much of

11:03

their time in their workplace. Especially pre

11:05

twenties money. Prieto bad when it

11:08

was mostly working in an office

11:10

setting. It's where you spend the majority

11:12

of your day, so it isn't really all

11:14

that surprising. That those relationships when it comes

11:16

your for isn't. A. Good athlete into

11:18

that later. I really want to talk about

11:20

how the Sinhalese can influence whether a fair

11:23

happens. Or not to have

11:25

any insights around the difference

11:27

as experiences specifically between men

11:29

and women. By. Think there's

11:31

a lot of staff differences between

11:34

how many women approach infidelity in

11:36

general, and I know for myself

11:38

when I started learning more about.

11:41

This phase they'd they'd catch me by

11:43

surprise with I think Sam. through the

11:45

lot of information we have about infidelity

11:47

that we. Receive and mainstream media

11:49

that falls into the stereotypes as

11:52

infidelity maybe being more about and

11:54

dominant behavior rate anything specifically. Third

11:56

misconception that money the need more

11:59

challenging for men that it is

12:01

for women and the researchers try

12:03

to show it's just it's not

12:06

the case. Anything that. With.

12:08

Our membership in particular and the research

12:10

that you've diner we see a lot

12:13

of man are actually seeking and an

12:15

affair for the emotional component to the

12:17

emotional validation. And. Women

12:20

on the other hand where you would think. There

12:22

may be pursuing their fair for emotional

12:24

refund. They're actually really looking to outsource

12:26

their intimate me. It's not as their

12:28

primary motivation for a thing. For me.

12:30

that was very shocking because I and

12:32

we've been led to believe that women

12:34

would be more inclined to cheat or

12:36

emotional. Read them nine where be more

12:38

inclined to cheat for. Physical. Needs.

12:41

Sorry. Thing that really. Flips. Scrapped

12:43

are and what words hot about. These things

12:45

and I think that. Again, As

12:47

more and more research is done, anything referring to.

12:50

Learn what more in general around women and

12:52

why women are in a fantasy setting for

12:54

so long? they really didn't come forward and

12:56

talk about it. Man. And why

12:58

are some other reasons that women are. Seeking out affairs

13:00

the he sound to your research. I

13:03

have the office he is actually speak

13:05

to a lot of our members directly

13:07

and release notes. You reasons are exactly

13:09

alike. We have. Members who for

13:11

whatever reason decision intimacy is just

13:14

no longer an option in their

13:16

marriage. The natural response to that.

13:18

Would be wine or it just get a divorce. You're

13:20

not getting your new mac. Just leave and go

13:22

find it all. Seventy think the reality of

13:25

thrill out of women I talked to. It's

13:27

not always that simple, right? You know? lot

13:29

of members in our site report. Ironically enough,

13:31

he happily married and so. Many ways,

13:33

their partners. Their best friend or

13:35

closest confidant. They've censored their lives

13:38

around their marriage, their financial partners,

13:40

their parents together if really built

13:42

always and just because It's one

13:44

thing. is it really been that.

13:47

They are choosing. To. Outsource

13:49

that rather than we've the

13:52

relationship altogether. So eating a lot

13:54

of women their spouse may have

13:56

again just solstice users or no

13:58

interest in being and. And

14:01

a lot of times members will come to

14:03

write with the knowledge or air. Into

14:05

the always a secret affair it's I'm

14:07

trying a couple has. A discussion

14:09

together and is fact that makes and slam as

14:12

a. Couple So I think that. The

14:14

more you talk to people, you realize that

14:16

you don't really know what's going on behind

14:18

closed doors. may think that it's not. Always

14:20

so simple on here through the lot

14:22

of new aren't says may think that's

14:24

when I believe if people approach it

14:26

more from a sense and understanding and

14:28

really trying to understand what's happening rather

14:30

than judging, that's when things start making

14:33

lot more. Yeah,

14:35

definitely. Could you elaborate on

14:37

the concept of vicinity attraction

14:39

and how it contributes to

14:41

specifically workplace affairs? Do

14:43

we spoke earlier about how the workplace

14:46

is really. Such a comment place for

14:48

an affair to start and a think

14:50

it's really. the concept is definitely a

14:52

toxin the actually came from, doctors have

14:55

been out, and who is someone that.

14:57

Very. Knowledgeable in the states

14:59

should sex therapist she's an author

15:02

and she relieves found night the

15:04

more time and in proximity to

15:06

and one the element as similarity

15:09

takes place and. Naturally,

15:11

You think of the workplace. You're. Putting

15:13

your best foot forward for sending most

15:16

year time there your dress. Senior

15:18

Bass You're spending time with

15:20

people working on projects. Together

15:22

says that proximity and not times.

15:24

And a thing over a span of

15:26

months and years can really create a

15:29

space for people. To develop an attraction

15:31

or feelings for one another. That's why

15:33

you see the workplace and such a

15:35

common. Place. for of happen.

15:38

And. Was interesting and she also says it may not

15:40

start with physical attraction or grow out of. An. Emotional

15:42

connection, but simply familiarity. And

15:45

the comfort of seeing them every single day

15:47

is how that attraction grows. Exactly.

15:49

That's where the term again work spouse, cancer

15:51

at my work has been my request, right?

15:54

and so many of the times that may

15:56

not even escalate to a physical relationship. A

15:58

lotta times it's an emotional right.

16:00

African people by is almost perceived

16:02

as a threat to their primary

16:04

relationship, right? Some people would think

16:06

the emotional allen and confiding in

16:09

someone else. That's a form of

16:11

betrayal to his idea of having a

16:13

close relationship with some of the opposite

16:15

sex, but you see every single day

16:18

that you worked closely with that is

16:20

something that over time to really develop.

16:23

Yeah, definitely. I think that we've all had

16:25

that experience for for p not all of

16:27

us that there's gotta be someone listening that

16:29

has grown and hasn't been old of really.

16:31

Designer understand why they're attracted to someone

16:33

and I think this might actually give

16:36

them some really interesting languished a frame

16:38

that his grown there for. Them is.

16:40

I've definitely been in that spot where the first

16:42

time As someone, I wasn't necessarily attracted to them.

16:44

but I found that. Just working with them

16:46

every seen them everyday. To point

16:48

seen them in their best element.

16:50

out works getting accolades hitting celebrated

16:53

being the best form of themselves

16:55

that. Shifted my perspective on them for

16:57

sure. Attraction that wouldn't presented itself. And

16:59

like a bar even on a dating.

17:01

App has found it's way they're over time.

17:04

Completely. Into a good energy spent

17:06

right? your. Devoting so much

17:08

of your energy it's your workplace

17:11

that often time at. The. End the

17:13

J wherever gases last minute change at

17:15

what years as that works both ways

17:17

later you have couple of fat both

17:19

work outside the house and then both.

17:21

Come home from a long day and so on

17:23

the couch together. What They do. They're both on

17:25

their phones. they're both. So. Working out

17:27

there, carrying over the stress

17:30

from Nj into their homelands

17:32

whereas. Often times when people are going

17:34

out to start their day at work, that's

17:36

what our focus is, that to their energy

17:38

as even just the way we work now

17:40

and so much of a how Arcs rears.

17:43

Blends into our personalize. it takes a

17:45

lot of effort. As a couple, it's

17:47

really ensure. That you're setting aside that

17:49

time to devote to each other? Yeah,

17:52

What are some common misconceptions about

17:54

workplace? Affairs even countered to your

17:56

work in the research that you've

17:58

generated through Ashley Madison. I

18:00

would just say that he don't necessarily. Always have

18:02

to call money in a physical

18:04

relationship. lot of time they do

18:06

and we see that happen. Any

18:09

the most common display about would

18:11

be a assets holiday party and

18:13

you have things like alcohol and

18:15

socializing. Outside of work involves a

18:17

lot of time. That's where a

18:19

physical relationship can result from that

18:21

percentage function over time, but a

18:23

lot of times. really. it is

18:25

just that emotional connection that forms.

18:28

The longer someone is working in

18:30

that space alongside some an hour,

18:32

they can really develop more. Actually,

18:34

I won't ask you about your

18:36

perspective. For folks that are listening

18:38

that maybe think that their partners.

18:40

Engaging in a workplace a fair to

18:42

the any insights on some warning signs

18:45

or some sort of behavior is that

18:47

they can look out for to know.

18:49

This is something that might be going on. In.

18:51

Terms of warning signs A Would just

18:53

in general not even. Insects with

18:56

workplace. Affairs in isolation by.

18:58

Excuses to not. And.

19:00

Time at home rate Earth, assuming you've lived

19:03

together or he sort of have a so

19:05

many of times and together in a week

19:07

any avoid. I'm that times fencing others

19:09

whether it's not wanting to be home is

19:12

often not. Wanting to go out at off and

19:14

during the week? I think that is. it's a.

19:16

Book. All morning I'm either

19:18

Telltale. Sign We hear from her members

19:20

versus socializing were going out war with

19:22

people that you may or may not

19:24

know finding ways. To do things that

19:26

are involving you with a couple maybe I

19:28

think our what we see a lot also

19:30

when you are together at home or they.

19:33

Always. On their phone or

19:35

they always withdrawn from that

19:38

time together. So if there's

19:40

any elements into. Being

19:42

more destructive than usual or even we've

19:44

heard from our members suddenly had to

19:46

focus on their physical appearance. Putting.

19:48

That more effort into had a look

19:51

when they're leaving the house. Obviously these

19:53

aren't necessarily tied to people stepping outside

19:55

the relationship, but I. Think they're definitely

19:57

signs that are worth looking into.

20:00

Oh, when it comes to gender,

20:03

are there different consequences for men

20:05

versus women when engaging in an

20:07

affair? There's. A stop at

20:09

a fair as Sir prowl a

20:11

renowned expert on the topic of

20:13

invalidate she talked about see. Mail

20:15

infidelity has arisen forty percent since

20:18

the early nineties, and mail and

20:20

doubt he has. Remained.

20:22

Relatively the same. Well

20:25

with that, because women are

20:27

in fact. Having more

20:29

affairs or they're just more

20:31

comfortable actually admitting to a

20:33

cast historically women sees way

20:35

more repercussion when they stopped

20:37

at either marriage as time.

20:39

Has gone on and and now obviously

20:41

women. Are in a different position

20:44

Women are financially. Independent there are

20:46

working inside the house there and

20:48

a lot of ways can pursue

20:50

your family on their own. However,

20:53

We certainly seen plenty

20:55

of. Examples where women

20:57

today are still in shock more

21:00

harshly when we look at a

21:02

why that might eat their. The

21:04

sexual double standard air raid because

21:06

when a man had an affair

21:09

yes, we can acknowledge it. He's.

21:11

Betrayed his partner. But there's this

21:13

underlying social message that is given

21:15

in to his natural mail tendencies.

21:18

Or had masculine knees and tendencies

21:20

where I've when a woman

21:22

has an affair. Yes,

21:25

She seen again as betraying her partner

21:27

but she's also the train. What?

21:29

It means to be feminine. There is

21:31

this underlying social message that boys will

21:34

be boys. And men aren't be hard

21:36

for man. It's not true. Monogamy is

21:38

challenging for. Men and women. It

21:40

is a choice, but I just think

21:42

that we're conditioned view genders differently when

21:45

it comes to that. It's why it's

21:47

much as men. Judging women were

21:49

hershey to women judging either

21:51

women more harshly for invalidates.

21:54

And has to show up and

21:56

social circles and for soaks I

21:58

remember overhearing my my. Talk about

22:00

this. Years and years ago there is a i Fear

22:02

that broke out in a small. Town that I

22:05

grew up in and the couple were their

22:07

readers monsieur that happened in and the breaking

22:09

up, getting divorced, the really isolated ostracized by

22:11

the rest of the group in the town

22:14

and my mom had told me she said

22:16

that married couples don't wanna be around couples

22:18

that have just divorced. Our there's an

22:20

affair there because it creates this

22:23

fear that that man or the.

22:25

Person. That had the affair. In this case it was

22:27

to husband. Will be a bad influence and other

22:29

people and I or know the birds us other

22:31

flock together if you will. When it comes to

22:34

the concept of affairs. Eating in

22:36

certain cases like what you just spoke. About definitely

22:38

saw hop. And they think if we

22:40

look historically if I. Would say

22:43

my grandparents' generation divorces

22:45

really frowned upon. And

22:47

so is a partner. had an

22:50

affair, You. Say he

22:52

especially as a woman. nice day and

22:54

there's way more a judgment if he

22:56

we. Were. Is now people sir,

22:58

Divorce parties and if you stay.

23:00

With your partner after they've had prepare

23:02

your accent charge more harshly on a

23:05

times for saying what a partner we've

23:07

seen it evolution just in even in

23:09

that model their by in terms of.

23:12

Not wanting to be associated

23:14

with any type of infidelity

23:16

in your peer group, that

23:18

shop and absolutely. But we've and

23:20

say. With. Couples who

23:22

are any just go was

23:25

in non monogamous relationships have

23:27

you will get infidelity at

23:29

an undisclosed non monogamy. Disclosed

23:32

would be anything under

23:34

the blotter umbrella of.

23:36

Polyamory. Open Relationships

23:39

Monogamy Bash Don't ask, don't tell

23:41

all those versions of disclosed non

23:43

monogamy which by the way are

23:45

becoming more and more com and

23:47

even people that are both knowingly

23:49

seeking outside partners. They don't want anyone

23:51

to know about it. So. Couples that are on

23:53

our site. Together. Both. Pursuing.

23:57

Outside partners with the intention of

23:59

so. Maintaining. Their primary

24:01

relationship. They. Don't want people to

24:03

know because of that judgment, You speak up be

24:05

given the same way. People may not want to

24:08

associate with back couple that just went through and

24:10

valley they my have associate with a couple of

24:12

the an open relationship is when does that mean

24:14

for that Doesn't mean that couple might pursue that

24:16

I'm in some capacity about a threat to their

24:18

monogamy. It is. An. Intimidating

24:20

idea for a lot of

24:23

people, right? Especially as that

24:25

strict monogamy compliance is. All

24:27

but you've ever known and dispatch.

24:30

Traditional monogamy has been seen as

24:32

are the fall in society for

24:34

so long, and people are now

24:37

starting to entertain a more fluid

24:39

monogamy. People. Disease as

24:41

threatening. Because. It's new, it's I know

24:43

on what is that. Mean that me, my

24:45

partner gonna leave me. Seventy. My

24:47

partner's and a from an ounce of a be tempted

24:50

by some money on anything get. You

24:52

can understand it might be. A

24:54

scary thought for a lot of

24:57

people that don't necessarily. Have. Interest

24:59

in anything up. By of monogamy. Me:

25:02

I definitely. Saw. A thing

25:04

for me as someone that leads

25:06

and Hr and d I consulting

25:08

firm and it's been an Hr

25:10

for now almost seventeen eighteen years

25:12

I've encountered my fair share of

25:14

were place affairs in whatever it

25:17

may be sexual encounters, relational dynamics

25:19

that are happening with in the

25:21

workplace. Some of the most challenging wants

25:23

to navigate have been when. There's power

25:25

dynamics at play. Someone to

25:28

ask you, how do

25:30

workplace affairs impact professional

25:32

dynamics? Specifically. When. There's a power dynamics

25:34

and when this more. Senior someone as in a

25:36

position of power. So when this may be

25:39

an executive level and they're having an affair

25:41

with someone that's a junior marketing coordinator if

25:43

you will, Do you have any insights from

25:45

Ashley Madison? Around with that impact has been.

25:48

So. When we actually. Surveyed

25:50

or memory on the topic of

25:52

office romance. Op: It's holiday

25:54

parties. Where are these into the fares

25:57

are manifesting? We do seem mouse report

25:59

I. Wait, another colleague most

26:01

answered that.a fair that romance

26:03

happy with the mine. At

26:06

more of a cure of

26:08

are all but.being side of

26:11

the certainly seen numerous examples

26:13

in corporate America as many

26:15

very senior level having affairs

26:18

it. Sort. Of an emerging your

26:20

level. And there are repercussions we've seen.

26:22

I. Say. Out. Where.

26:24

These executives at a Step Down and

26:26

they've had said answer to buy. This

26:29

is not only in the crime tax

26:31

as. Infidelity in the

26:33

settings. It's just having a

26:35

in central. Relationship with

26:37

someone who's had a more junior level

26:39

on a think that we are starting

26:41

to. See much more aback by our

26:43

i think there's. A. Lot less

26:45

tolerance for that. Yeah,

26:48

I think we've seen this play out

26:50

for anyone. that's a Bravo San specifically.

26:52

Anyone. That watches the under pump rules.

26:54

There's been a really interesting dynamic with

26:57

a very. Public Affairs that took

26:59

place and I'm curious from your

27:01

perspective how to workplace affairs depicted

27:03

him. Pop culture such as involving

27:06

celebrities or tv shows compared a

27:08

real life situations and scenarios. Example

27:11

you just mentioned new with the intercom

27:13

fraud. I think I'd is a

27:16

great example of both a workplace affair

27:18

be that the end of the day

27:20

their classmates to their memory to the

27:22

same time as. But. It's also

27:24

a social circle so you see

27:26

on the workplace side of an

27:28

obvious exists secret affair siri over

27:31

four months and minded. So.

27:33

Over quite an extended period of

27:35

time before it was discovered. By.

27:38

What happened next Season One Person.

27:40

Didn't come back and return. and now

27:42

I don't think that with a matter

27:45

of for not being allowed to return.

27:47

I think that with a frames in

27:49

there with a choice but I think

27:51

it's still there. It's probably a level

27:53

of discomfort of returning to that cause

27:55

after the affair fall out so that

27:58

impacted that person's earning potential and that

28:00

for career in that person's reputation. And

28:02

a professional setting All those same,

28:04

there are consequences, right? I think

28:06

this is an interesting case study because

28:08

we spoke about her not returning to

28:11

sell in the next season. They think

28:13

even which is that is right. You

28:15

saw his restaurant to get hit by.

28:17

Dot scientists impacting him, That impacting

28:19

his business partner as the people

28:22

that worked at the restaurant the

28:24

Russia are getting and why there

28:26

were so many things are happening

28:28

all wine. It. Illustrates

28:31

a like there is a strong

28:33

response or have to decide when.

28:36

Infidelity happens. Yeah, and

28:38

what advice do have for people that suspect

28:40

that their partner may be engaging in were

28:42

face of there right now. Talk

28:44

to your partner. Yes, but his.

28:47

I worked at a company ones where someone

28:49

it was the partner on some one that

28:51

I worked with and they suspected that their

28:53

partner was engaging in the fare. As far

28:55

as I was concerned, they weren't. That

28:57

he showed up at our office and

28:59

made a scene. And confronted this

29:01

person. At work it was pretty wild.

29:04

yeah, talk to your partner would be

29:06

my advice, but not in a public

29:08

setting. A? Exactly yeah, not at work

29:10

and as is showing up unexpectedly. At

29:12

their place of work Yang said

29:15

probably aware as distinction yeah, but

29:17

definitely communicate. It's also when nice

29:19

things she plays. It's

29:21

not just looking outward. Necessarily

29:24

I. Want. My.

29:26

Partner is doing or what might

29:28

they be doing anyway, it's also

29:30

eating and oversee, Sue, look at

29:33

how that person is showing up

29:35

in. Relationship: What Is the state

29:37

of their relationships irrespective of

29:39

their suspicions that their. Partner may

29:41

or may not be having an office

29:44

chair or the As. A couple cel

29:46

investing in third date nights already

29:48

spending time after work binding and

29:50

snacks chain or a day job

29:52

laying on trips together at a

29:54

pursuing a hobby together. And so

29:57

I think meeting with Open on

29:59

It can. Asia and it's it's.

30:01

usually a pretty good temperature attack

30:03

on. How. Both people can

30:06

probably be showing up at bit

30:08

differently in the relationship and maybe

30:10

prioritizing the relationship a bit more

30:12

and just having that line of

30:15

communication open, because as much as

30:17

it's very easy to put all

30:19

the blame on the person. That.

30:22

Has. Had. The affair.

30:24

And and while we acknowledge that

30:26

infidelity is so seen as like

30:28

the ultimate relationship transaction, It is

30:31

not the only way. To.

30:34

Create. Disconnect. Or.

30:37

Issues in a relationship is.

30:39

Often times a culmination.

30:41

Of a lot of little things over time

30:44

where that. Disconnect is happening to

30:46

them Up create space. Me before

30:48

that seeking have a connection elsewhere.

30:51

Yeah. And for the first time ever

30:53

in history we have side generations in the.

30:55

Workforce. Some curious from

30:57

your perspective. And just from the

30:59

dia you build a poll from

31:01

members, Are there any differences between

31:03

motivations are behaviors of members from

31:06

different generations right now. If.

31:08

We'll get Canada specifically.

31:11

Millennia, Old are top. Aides

31:13

demo on the site followed

31:15

closely. By. Agency and then John.

31:17

Experts certainly. We

31:19

can see that.

31:22

If. We're looking at the youngest. At

31:24

this age demo as the engine the

31:26

they. Are approaching monogamy a

31:28

lot differently than their older

31:30

counterparts. may think that is

31:32

a result of seeing a

31:35

lot of relationships. Fail.

31:37

And the younger generation wanting to

31:39

do things a bit differently. Three

31:41

think that what we see vagina

31:43

the They are still very much

31:46

interested in an Anchor Partnership. But

31:48

they're not so concerned with the

31:50

formality of marriage, and they're not

31:53

so concerned with having that traditional.

31:55

Monogamy compliance. So. They are

31:58

more leaning towards idea of does

32:00

in in your own monogamy and

32:02

when you walk out. Wednesday

32:04

Jan acts a lot of

32:06

times. they've only ever known

32:08

that nutritional monogamy and a

32:10

lot. Of times they married very

32:12

young. They might have only ever had

32:15

one partner. Their ways they became parents

32:17

very young. And. So.

32:20

They. Found themselves in situations where their

32:22

relationships are serve running on auto

32:24

pilot and for water than they

32:26

did. It really see a path

32:28

forward other than either done with

32:30

sticking it out or divorcing. But

32:32

I think. The. In between

32:34

as maybe outsourcing those needs.

32:36

Why? Isn't necessarily obvious. Where is? He.

32:39

I'm really surprised by that because I think

32:42

that my assumption was that the majority of

32:44

people that would be members on Ashley Madison

32:46

be people at my parents' age like sixty

32:48

plus. We definitely have. A

32:51

portion in that group. It's

32:53

almost a rediscovery.

32:56

Of fouls. Because I think

32:58

a lot of times, especially. As women when you

33:01

hit a certain age. Right off certain parts

33:03

of your life he be of being a part

33:05

of the past especially if you are or an

33:07

ear for have. In a sexless marriage? For.

33:10

Ten plus years. You. Might

33:12

reach the point of acceptance

33:14

were. Alive. My partner com determines

33:16

the fact that this is no longer part

33:19

of our relationship, but otherwise we felt live

33:21

chatters. Ah, this is just something I can

33:23

still web where until they don't want to

33:25

live with it anymore and need to scupper

33:28

sex outside the relationship and. Feel

33:30

a sense of. System. And

33:32

and reinvigoration and. It

33:35

does it. Make em love their partner

33:37

and he lies. But. I think

33:39

that this outsourcing as need that

33:41

simon their life where they might

33:43

have written that off completely. Has

33:46

been incredibly empowering for these. and

33:49

what's been very fascinating for me

33:51

to learn is that these women.

33:53

Do not see their affairs.

33:56

As a threat to their primary

33:58

relationship. And. That's a very and. No.

34:01

A. See them as a supplement. They

34:03

see them as a form of self care

34:05

and this might seem. Like I'm trivializing it, but

34:07

they see it in the same way to say with.

34:09

See going for a massage or vetting? Sarah

34:11

haired and in there and going to work.

34:14

Out we any form of their selves

34:16

care their this realization that. I

34:18

don't want to leave the person. But I'm

34:20

no longer willing to sacrifice this

34:22

need. And so I'm gonna

34:25

do it in a way to I

34:27

think is discrete and responsible and that

34:29

will allow me to stay in this

34:31

relationship. There's this idea that again if

34:33

you step outside you don't let your.

34:35

Partner with I guess it's not so

34:37

clear side. there's so many members, especially

34:40

in that. Order. Demographics. We

34:42

have a number that married

34:44

someone ten years older than

34:46

her and they are very

34:48

happy loving. Process of selling

34:50

until he was diagnosed with

34:52

advanced or primers an overnight.

34:54

Their relationship completely changed. And

34:57

she went from being weiss friend,

34:59

lover. To his caretaker and

35:01

that was a very difficult. Experience

35:05

because not only are you in her

35:07

getting watching your partner. Watching.

35:09

Your house. Declaring. Lot of ways

35:11

but year now putting all your needs, decide

35:13

to really devote yourself to being a caretaker.

35:15

And so after. A while that took

35:17

it's toll, but she was never it's

35:20

position. To leave her partner nor did

35:22

she want to leave her partner but she

35:24

had to do something chew so so herself

35:26

and for show her need and not for

35:29

her. What Ashley Madison Dead She was able

35:31

to seek out outsource that keys and. Dot

35:33

is an example for me. Where I look at

35:35

that may go.is not necessarily what people's things when

35:37

he think of. Your. Average Ashley Madison years

35:39

or but in not. Older

35:42

demographic.is. A very

35:44

common story where. One

35:47

partner could no longer participate in the

35:49

physical aspect of the relationship. That.

35:51

Physical intimacy and not is. Hard.

35:53

For a lot of people to give up. So I think that.

35:57

When. We look at it from a bit more

35:59

of a consortium angle. I think

36:01

you start to serve understand the

36:03

motivations of why someone might. Seek.

36:06

That separates are always are people A.

36:08

Nap. And think that's really fascinating.

36:11

And when you mentioned the

36:13

members that are part of

36:15

Jersey that are. A

36:18

part of Ashley Madison. Yeah

36:20

I think James he no

36:22

surprise there, just more open

36:24

minded. They. Are looking

36:26

at it for a totally different lands? Where.

36:30

I. Think they see non monogamy

36:32

as. A. Place that a lotta

36:34

times they can explore that. With

36:37

the knowledge of their partner together

36:39

right? So they're not as tethered

36:41

to bad idea of traditional monogamy

36:44

with younger generation paintings, even couples

36:46

in general when they're looking at

36:48

their monogamy. I think there is. Great

36:51

benefit to them actually as

36:53

establishing what that looks like

36:55

and being really. Specific.

36:58

About it And so. When. Of the

37:00

experts be Berkowitz, she talks. About the idea

37:02

of. Developing a monogamy agreement So

37:04

you renew your driver's license every five

37:07

years. Why not renew your monogamy? Agree?

37:09

Because the person that you when you

37:11

got married as she's been married ten

37:14

fifteen, twenty twenty five years is Not

37:16

the person you are Spec: It's hard

37:18

for couples to grow. At the exact

37:20

same case throughout the course of their relationship.

37:23

So I think that. Not only developing

37:25

a monogamy agreement and really, Being specific

37:27

about what monogamy means, use. A couple

37:29

not can be designing your own and me that

37:31

can be looking at work abroad. Open monogamy were.

37:34

Maybe. There's certain things that you're okay with

37:36

as a couple took four and then revisiting.

37:38

It every few years and really looking at it.

37:40

Are we so happy? Does this so make sense

37:42

for us? And people treating Ashley

37:44

Madison is an opportunity to get out

37:47

of her long. Term. Relationship that there and.

37:49

It's. Worth noting that as you as

37:51

and started in two thousand and two

37:54

and a whole premise of. Why?

37:56

This site start edwards because there is

37:58

a shot at around three. The percent

38:00

of people I'm single setting aside

38:02

at the. Time or married and they were

38:04

just pretending to be. And alright so it would

38:07

say dia, what's create a space or people can

38:09

be transparent about what it is they're actually looking

38:11

for. And zone a lot of ways where the

38:13

most honest dating site. For that reason, although I'm sure

38:15

people are rolled her eyes about it, there is some

38:17

truth to it because really, it's like people are being

38:19

very clear about what it is. A while they're not

38:21

walking into a bar in seeking a wedding ring off.

38:24

Do you believe in the trope

38:26

of once cheater, always a cheater.

38:29

Not. Necessarily know I

38:31

have really. Come

38:33

to realize that. Know.

38:36

To situation faraway I think

38:38

it over simplifying. And.

38:41

Misrepresents. It's really. Happening and lot

38:43

of ways to bore current. Fleet

38:45

changing and into are constantly evolving

38:47

or needs are constantly changing. It's.

38:50

Not always easy to have those conversations we

38:52

see people have a lot of a fair

38:54

run. those milestones Twenty nine thirty nine Forty

38:56

nine. Like those birthday miles of as fix

38:58

a time where I think people a wanna

39:00

steal something when a seal young again they

39:03

want a sealed with a fall when they

39:05

were in or twenty isn't named matter partner

39:07

for the first time and it's so. Important

39:09

to approach this topic with a

39:12

levels compassion. Empathy beginning to to happen to

39:14

anyone and in anyone can participate in it even

39:16

if they don't think there are pretty brave. Find

39:18

yourself any situation Gray think that when you really

39:20

take a step back and look at thing is

39:23

people him mark their partner tremendously and want to

39:25

stay with her partner but also. Have affairs,

39:27

Yeah. Looking. Ahead, What do

39:29

you envision. For the future of affairs

39:32

at work and beyond particularly. As remote

39:34

work and hybrid models become more

39:36

prevalent, Rain has a great question

39:38

where I see the most evolution

39:40

is. The way we perceive

39:42

relationships in general in what we

39:44

look at. When. We think

39:46

about six or for relationship and I

39:48

don't think people are going to be

39:50

as hazard to this idea of. Tradition

39:53

monogamy as they once were and I

39:55

think I would your big result of

39:57

that hand I think that alter people's

39:59

view. Getting everything you need from one

40:01

percent of the time. That's. A tremendous

40:04

amount of pressure to put on one

40:06

per cent you be that everything to

40:08

you at all times and maintain all

40:10

those elements direct a whole course of

40:12

your relationship. I think tank possible it's

40:14

work, it takes neutral commitment to do

40:16

that. But a thing. What

40:19

this is darren is it's

40:21

card people to reimagine their

40:23

primary relationship and take a

40:25

bit more ownership. On designing what

40:27

success looks great to than a

40:30

couple rather than just. Going

40:32

along with what we've been taught, a

40:34

relationship should be. When you okay that

40:37

way think it's quite encouraging actually that

40:39

people are having a bit. More

40:41

openness to design a not relationship.

40:43

On their term and being. Hopefully

40:45

you're more honest and transparent with their

40:47

partner on what they need and what

40:49

they need over the short and long

40:52

term thing. And so I see as

40:54

Gens he moves then to. The marriage

40:56

years. it's injured. It's even more.

40:59

Yeah. I think that would I've had

41:01

served as specifically amongst Gens he is

41:03

an even younger millennials during much more

41:05

critical of the things I would say

41:07

have been designed for us. the have

41:09

the biggest impact on our life. So

41:11

things like work, things like our relationships

41:14

even gender roles as it relates to

41:16

our show up within all the dynamics

41:18

sick presented cells in our life and

41:20

what I found to. Be most interesting

41:22

is that people are thinking critically

41:24

about how they can really have

41:27

more agency around choice. And designing things

41:29

work for them. And this is like a big

41:31

essence of the podcast with girl boss in general

41:33

is how do you actually define success on your

41:36

own terms? Less not just about work that's in

41:38

every aspect of your life so I can. That's

41:40

a really great place for us to end the

41:42

conversation today. Thank you so much for your time,

41:44

energy and for all these and before we wrap

41:47

up this anything else you'd like to leave listeners

41:49

where. They get think I've were

41:51

in his to approach. All the topics you

41:53

cover her with that and so understanding

41:55

and curiosity and empathy when we do

41:58

that at least from my perspective, We're

42:08

having. Conversations

42:12

I work with appears with Isabella from Ashley

42:15

Madison to the next week for another episode

42:17

and kill them to leave a comment or

42:19

send nutrients. Let me know what we can

42:21

do to make Robots radio even better is

42:23

or guess you think I should interview a

42:25

topic we haven't covered? Yeah, I wasn't sure

42:27

at this podcast. Pretty well as Gruber

42:30

and Victoria pretty and edited by

42:32

Diego dominate until next time. Supplements.