0:00

Mike. Lauren. Mike, should we

0:02

sandwich this intro? Alright. Hi,

0:07

everyone. Lauren here. You may know

0:09

us from the podcast that you're about to listen to,

0:12

and thanks in advance for tuning in. Both

0:14

Mike and I are off for most of this week because

0:16

of the holiday we like to call side skipping.

0:19

Side skipping. While we're gone, we decided

0:21

to bring back one of our favorite episodes that ran

0:24

earlier this year all about the kitchen,

0:26

which is probably appropriate for this week.

0:28

We talked with wired food writer, Joe

0:31

Ray, about smart kitchen devices whether

0:33

all the flashy tech actually makes a

0:35

difference in how you

0:37

cook. You know, one of my favorite parts of this episode

0:39

was that Joe pretty much determined for us that it

0:41

doesn't make a difference. I

0:43

mean, I don't wanna spoil it. No pun intended.

0:45

You know, spoil food, but he

0:47

talks a lot about what it takes to be a great

0:49

cook.

0:49

Yeah. And it's not buttons. Or apps

0:52

or Bluetooth. So

0:54

enjoy the show, and thanks for listening. We hope

0:56

you have a great holiday. We'll be back next week

0:58

with a brand new episode of gadget lab.

1:06

Lauren. Mike, Lauren, what is your

1:08

go to kitchen gadget? Like, the one piece

1:10

of equipment in the kitchen that you can't live

1:12

without?

1:13

I have two and neither are Internet connected.

1:15

That's fine. What are they?

1:16

One is a seven dollar Swiss

1:19

knife -- Mhmm. -- cutting knife, not an

1:21

army

1:21

knife. Sure.

1:22

It's so sharp. It'll take your finger tip off in an

1:24

instant.

1:24

That's what you want.

1:25

Great. And the second is a

1:27

box cutter, which think was also seven

1:29

dollars for Amazon.

1:32

A box cutter? Yeah. Like, I don't use it

1:34

for cooking. I just use it for, like, I'm

1:37

asking why it's why it's why it's asking.

1:40

That's about for the kitchen. Oh, it's not boy. You

1:42

can put it anywhere. You can have a box cutter

1:44

anywhere. Oh. What's yours?

1:47

Probably my electric kettle.

1:49

Because it's what I used to make coffee and nothing happens if

1:52

I can't make coffee.

1:53

That's actually a really good one.

1:54

Right. Well, we'll talk more

1:55

about this on today's show. And box

1:58

cutters. Mhmm. Hi,

2:06

everyone. Welcome to gadgetlab. I am Michael Corey.

2:08

I'm a senior editor at Wired. And

2:11

I'm Lauren Good. I eat salads for breakfast

2:13

and use box cutters in the kitchen.

2:16

I'm a senior writer at Wired. We also

2:18

joined this week by Food writer

2:20

and frequent contributor wired, Joe

2:23

Rae.

2:23

Joe, welcome to the show. Thank you.

2:25

Hello, Joe.

2:26

Hello. We are very excited to have

2:29

you as a guest, Joe. First of

2:31

all, because this is your first time on the show,

2:33

you're in town. It worked out, so we're happy

2:35

to have you. But also because the area

2:38

that you cover for us, the smart kitchen, connected

2:40

cooking, kitchen technology, in general, cookbooks,

2:43

is very central to our lives.

2:45

We all cook. We all use our kitchens.

2:47

We wish they could be better. We wish we could

2:49

be better in our kitchens. It feels

2:51

like one of the most important areas of coverage

2:53

that we do, more important than

2:55

iPhones and Pixel phones and

2:57

e bikes and kindles any day of

2:59

the week. When you agree, you

3:01

gotta feed yourself. Man's gotta eat.

3:04

Well, let's start with a broad look at the space.

3:07

One of the things that you

3:09

cover a lot is what we call the smart

3:10

kitchen. So when we talk about the smart kitchen,

3:13

what are we talking about? I would

3:15

say there is pretty vague definition

3:17

of that, but we could probably boil

3:19

it down to it being modern

3:22

cooking appliances that have a

3:24

bit of computer help. Maybe you have

3:26

an app on your phone or maybe they have a

3:28

screen right on them or some combination

3:30

of all of

3:30

those. All in the effort to help

3:33

make you a better cook. Does it usually work?

3:35

I mean, it doesn't work. Not

3:38

very well enough. So if you weren't a good cook

3:40

before, it's not going to be like the, you know,

3:42

WiFi connected Suvied Wanda that's going

3:44

to turn you into one.

3:45

Alright. I

3:46

try to be optimistic about this stuff, but

3:49

I don't think it

3:51

is as good as everyone

3:53

wants it to be. Mhmm. I feel like

3:56

somebody with some money got in a room

3:58

and wanted to make an app and wanted

4:00

to connect their Suzy Bond

4:03

or their oven or their something to it.

4:05

And didn't really realize

4:07

that we have already been cooking for

4:10

millennia. Like, we've been cooking

4:12

forever. And if you

4:14

think about cooking on a graph,

4:17

like cooking since the beginning, since like

4:19

caveman, the line slowly steadily

4:22

moves up. We go through amazing

4:24

cuisines. We go through Indian cuisine. We go

4:26

through French cuisine. This has

4:28

been happening for centuries. There's all this

4:30

slow and steady progress that we make.

4:33

And now we get to the modern day

4:36

and kitchen appliance manufacturers would

4:38

have you believe that

4:40

by plugging an app onto your

4:42

phone, suddenly that slow and

4:44

steady line has gonna go

4:46

vertical.

4:46

Mhmm. And it does not Put

4:51

tech aside for a moment what actually makes a

4:53

good

4:53

cook. A good cook is

4:57

I would say that

4:59

is practice, interest,

5:02

and a decent set of

5:04

very basic tools. So

5:06

you've got a nice knife.

5:09

Maybe not a bucks counter, but a nice

5:11

knife. That's

5:13

my right picture. You've got a cutting board. Hard to cut.

5:18

You've got a cutting board. You've got,

5:20

you know, an oven. You've got a pan you

5:22

use that you like, that you trust, that works

5:24

pretty well. And it's stuff that you feel comfortable

5:26

with. And then maybe

5:28

a good cookbook or a good cooking

5:30

show to inspire you a little bit. But

5:33

you don't need a lot more than that. You

5:35

just need to practice. Like, you need to

5:37

figure out how to cut an onion. You need to figure

5:39

out how to make spaghetti sauce. But

5:41

it doesn't Tech doesn't

5:43

really have to figure into that.

5:45

It can, and sometimes it

5:48

works really well, but most of the time

5:50

it doesn't. You

5:50

know, I've I've been racking my

5:53

brain, trying to think of the places where technology

5:55

has actually, like, enhanced the

5:57

experience in the kitchen, and I mean, obviously,

5:59

there are many that seem

6:02

obvious, but if you look at just

6:04

where we were ten years ago or

6:06

not, right, induction cooking is big

6:08

one. Right? This is the style of

6:10

cooktop where it uses magnetic

6:12

energy to heat things inside

6:14

of

6:14

-- Mhmm. -- conductive pans? Yes. Kettles

6:17

that let you dial exact temperatures. Super

6:19

cool. Right? So I want my hot water to

6:21

be exactly two hundred and five degrees. I have a

6:23

kettle that can do that. Ten years ago, it was just

6:25

like boil the water and then let it sit for three

6:27

minutes. Much

6:28

better. Right? Mhmm. And timing is such

6:30

an important part of cooking too. Right? So some of the

6:32

technology we've seen introduced in recent years

6:35

like, smart displays or Amazon

6:38

Echo speakers, they're great for setting

6:40

timers. Yeah. I swear that's why

6:42

the only thing that I use them for for

6:44

the most part because I don't have kids. So I'm not like play

6:46

baby shark on

6:46

repeat. I'm really just like set another timer

6:49

for the cooking. Yeah. One of the

6:51

most recent favorite gadgets I

6:53

got was a plexiglass holder

6:55

for my

6:55

cookbooks. Mike? I'm

6:58

sorry, but that kind of outdoes a lot

7:00

of what I find on apps. Mhmm. But

7:03

on the flip side, a great

7:06

guided cooking app might let's

7:08

go back to the idea of chopping

7:10

up an onion. It

7:12

might run you through with

7:14

a couple little videos. As

7:16

you do the menu, you might be able to pop out

7:18

and say, here's how to chop

7:20

an onion. And now just

7:23

show somebody's hands, chop chop chop

7:25

chop, you do it this, you do that, and

7:27

you're done. And then you can pop back

7:29

into the the recipe, and you'll

7:31

be fine. And you continue down the recipe

7:34

and if you do all

7:36

that, it can be very helpful.

7:39

But the problem with that is that's

7:42

a bucket load of money

7:44

for a company to invest. So

7:46

if you're a pan company, you

7:49

make pans, that already costs a lot of money.

7:52

You need to market those bands. That also costs a lot

7:54

of money. But if you wanna do a smart

7:56

pan and it is something

7:59

that is specific, especially

8:01

like a Suvide is even a better example

8:03

where it's maybe somebody isn't

8:05

used to that style of

8:07

cooking, then you're as the manufacturer,

8:09

you're kind of forced to train

8:11

the people and how to use the product and get

8:13

the most out of it. But then you've got to do all

8:15

these little videos like you need to go you

8:17

need to do the little side video of a guy

8:19

chopping an onion. You need to do a

8:21

video of how

8:23

to chop up a chicken,

8:25

you need to do a video of like

8:27

how to cut a zucchini. And

8:30

all of that takes mammoth, not only are

8:32

you doing a recipe, but you have to do

8:34

all these little side projects to make it

8:36

all smooth and helpful. And

8:38

that is a

8:40

chef or chefs. That is

8:43

an app designer or

8:45

designers. It's a design team.

8:47

It's app recipe writers

8:49

who are not necessarily the

8:51

chefs. The list goes on

8:53

and on, and you that's a lot of

8:55

salaries. Mhmm. So are

8:56

you saying that's what makes some of the smart

8:59

kitchen products we see today? So expensive? Or are

9:01

you saying that ultimately you question if it's

9:03

worth

9:03

it? I'm saying I think that's why that they

9:05

kind of peter out, or they

9:08

like half asset and

9:10

it does not teach

9:12

their own customer how to use their

9:14

product well and so it ends up in the back of a

9:16

cupboard. Yeah. I

9:17

have to say, I

9:19

I have to say in my last no. Actually, not

9:21

my last apartment, two apartments ago

9:23

when I was living with a partner. We

9:25

had a lot of kitchen stuff.

9:28

I did not keep a lot of it. I mean, I

9:30

was fine with that. I basically was like,

9:32

you keep the kitchenaid stands and I'll take the

9:34

cat. And I was very happy with

9:36

that arrangements. I took the

9:38

espresso maker, which was a gift to me, and

9:40

that actually is probably my favorite

9:42

kitchen item above the knives and

9:44

the The bottom is box

9:46

cutter. Yeah. Anyway, I'm never

9:48

gonna leave that one down. But we had like a

9:50

Sous vide wand. We did have an Alexa

9:52

that we used for timers. Yeah.

9:55

Just I just remember there being a lot of

9:57

stuff and finding a lot of it to

9:59

feel like a novelty and eventually just

10:01

sort of ditching it and being like I don't

10:03

actually need to make a

10:05

soft boiled egg over three

10:06

hours. Oh, the

10:08

sixty c egg? Yeah. Or whatever that is.

10:10

Now there are some late. There's like

10:12

this delta right that exists between

10:14

what Joe is describing, which is just the really

10:16

simple amazing tools and then like the

10:18

really really expensive gear.

10:20

But it seems like there's also an in between

10:23

category of stuff like a rice cooker mic

10:25

that you you tell me about all the time you're

10:26

like, you need to get a rice I do. Everybody

10:29

everybody needs a good rice cooker. And that's not

10:31

necessarily smart or is

10:33

it? It is in a sense

10:35

that you it has sensors in it.

10:37

Right? So it's senses when the

10:39

steam is getting

10:41

lower, so it knows that there's less moisture

10:43

that needs evaporating and it has,

10:45

you know, timed cooking, it'll sort of create a

10:47

soft landing into perfect rice

10:49

instead of just dumbly turning off after a

10:51

certain amount of time. Right?

10:53

It has different settings, so it knows what kind

10:55

of grain you're putting in there. It has different

10:57

settings for, like, oatmeal and and

10:59

wild rice and long grain and short grain

11:02

sushi rice. So yeah, very smart

11:04

compared to the last rice cooker I had

11:06

which just had on and warm

11:08

and that was

11:08

it. It's a marvel.

11:10

You don't

11:10

have an app for it? No. It

11:12

does not have an app. There are

11:13

no videos being produced like the kind that Joe

11:15

described.

11:16

Correct.

11:16

Okay.

11:17

You just put the ricin. Yeah, I mean, but

11:19

you also you have to know how to make rice to your

11:21

point, Joe. You gotta know how to wash

11:23

it. You gotta know how to rinse it

11:25

properly. You have to know let

11:27

it sit for thirty minutes before we start cooking because

11:29

it turns out better that way. I

11:31

am nowhere near as much of a rice

11:33

cooker purist as Mike

11:35

is, but it is also

11:37

probably my favorite

11:39

single use appliance

11:41

in my kitchen. Mhmm. don't

11:44

necessarily always rinse my

11:46

rice. I Should

11:48

I know. It depends. We we do a lot of

11:50

brown rice at home, but you

11:53

put rice in a cup, you put

11:55

water in the

11:57

pot up to the one cup line,

11:59

It just tells you how much to put

12:00

in, you put it in, you close the

12:03

lid, you press cooking, the cooking

12:05

button, and it sings a little song

12:07

to

12:07

you. And then you go

12:09

away and you do other things.

12:11

And when you come back, your race is done because it's

12:13

saying another song. Mhmm. That's

12:16

that is very

12:18

smart to me. Mhmm. That is my

12:21

definition of

12:21

smart, which is not what

12:24

an app manufacturer would want

12:26

you. And

12:26

it's simple. Simple is

12:28

better. It

12:28

really is. We should talk more about it, but first

12:31

let's take a break and we'll come right back.

12:39

Alright. Welcome back. We are here with Joe Ray, a

12:41

contributing writer at Wired, who covers

12:43

kitchen technology, food, cookbooks, all things

12:45

culinary for us.

12:48

One of the things that I have noticed

12:50

about the Smart Kitchen is that

12:52

when you have a device that has an

12:54

app, it's controlled through the app, you look

12:56

at that device and it conspicuously

12:59

lacks buttons that you can

13:01

touch. I know that this is something that you

13:03

like, can I swear on this podcast? You're absolutely

13:06

welcome. I think this is an

13:08

appropriate time.

13:09

Oh, goddamn. It's

13:12

it's as if somebody saw some sort

13:14

of super clean monolith

13:16

somewhere and wanted their devices to

13:18

look like

13:18

that. But when you're one of the

13:20

most efficient cooking devices I can think

13:23

of is my mother-in-law's

13:25

old oven, which

13:27

has a light switch on it. You want

13:29

the light switch to go on. You hit the switch. The

13:31

light comes on. You want the light to go off in the oven.

13:33

You hit the switch. The light goes off. When

13:36

you have the sort of No

13:38

button appliance that

13:40

connects to an

13:40

app. How's your Bluetooth connection?

13:42

Is it connected? Is it

13:44

gonna drop?

13:46

Because it probably will drop. Where did I put

13:48

the app? Where did I put the app?

13:50

Oh, hey. My mom just texted.

13:53

Okay. Lauren, Lauren

13:56

just texted too. What's going on?

13:58

It's I feel like

14:00

if you route people through an

14:03

app. You are just inviting them to

14:05

get distracted. And

14:07

to me, what cooking is about

14:10

at a, like, at the most sort of romantic

14:12

sense is it's time to be

14:14

together. Mhmm. You and I are gonna have

14:16

dinner sometime. We are gonna maybe

14:19

have a glass wine. We are

14:21

gonna talk about what we're gonna

14:23

eat. We're gonna talk about our days. It's

14:25

like it's a little bit of time whether or not

14:27

that's like on Tuesday night, we really don't have

14:29

much time or

14:31

it's an all day affair, that's

14:33

fantastic. And as

14:36

soon as you put my

14:38

phone between me and you, I'm

14:40

getting angry. Just talking about this. And I like,

14:43

it's it's a barrier. Mhmm. Like,

14:45

no one's giving you their full attention.

14:47

If I put up an app, if I hold up

14:49

my phone, if I get distracted by

14:51

my phone,

14:51

Like,

14:52

I'm here

14:52

to be with you, and

14:54

I'm here to be with you. I'm pointing at these guys

14:56

right now. And if

14:58

you lift up your

14:59

phone, you're you're going away

15:01

a bit. Yeah. And that drives

15:03

me crazy. Mhmm. Especially when you

15:05

think about so many kitchens, living

15:08

spaces being designed with that kind of communal

15:10

experience in mind. Right? I always

15:12

like to joke that when you have friends over

15:14

for like gathering or a party. And

15:16

you're like, oh, let's go hang out over here.

15:18

Everyone comes to the kitchen. Yeah. It's the only

15:20

place people that's the only place people want to

15:22

congregate. And so

15:24

if you're standing there and you're cooking for

15:26

two friends or twelve friends to

15:28

have your face in your

15:28

phone, it does feel really

15:31

it feels like it's intrusive.

15:33

It's It

15:34

drives me crazy. Yes. Yeah.

15:37

And, you know, there are

15:39

times when you want to you've

15:41

gotta kinda kinda concentrate in the

15:43

kitchen, like, if you're carving the

15:45

Thanksgiving Turkey, I will walk the

15:47

bird around the room, and then

15:49

I tell everyone to leave. In

15:52

fact, I have an apron that says, ask me about

15:54

your hovering, but that

15:56

that's good. That's really good. That's good. That's

15:58

good. That's

15:58

dope. I have one that says we dance

16:01

around the kitchen and the refrigerator light.

16:03

There

16:03

you go. I'm

16:03

just kidding. That's a Taylor Swift song. But Taylor

16:05

Swift sings about this. People hang out

16:07

in the kitchen Right.

16:08

Does she sing about having an app in the

16:10

kitchen? No. I

16:11

think not. I

16:11

don't think so because it's not as much fun. No.

16:14

It's not romantic.

16:16

So in the years that you've been writing for us, you've

16:18

hit a lot of trends. Right? There's the Suvide

16:21

trend. There is the air fryer

16:22

trend. There's the multi cookerinstant pot.

16:25

Trend. Mhmm. What's next?

16:28

I was thinking

16:28

about this because I knew this question was coming

16:31

and I

16:31

I kinda think we're in a bit of a

16:34

shakeout right now. I think

16:36

that there are enough frustrated

16:38

people out there who are

16:41

not super happy about the way the smart

16:43

kitchen is going that I think

16:45

manufacturers are not

16:47

sure what to do. So I

16:49

think I'm starting to see things

16:51

tail off -- Mhmm. -- a bit we're

16:53

seeing less smart products

16:55

come

16:55

out. Are they still going to be

16:58

Internet connected even if that's not

17:00

like the primary feature? Is it

17:02

something that sort of like like the way that three d

17:04

became like sort of just a part of TVs would they

17:06

stop being marketed like that?

17:08

I think And this brings me back to

17:11

an idea I was thinking about before

17:13

is if it's a

17:15

thing that is a perk

17:17

you can do it without danger.

17:21

So to explain that a little, one

17:24

product that does that

17:27

really well is the ThermoWorks

17:29

smoke. So it

17:31

is a thermometer that's mostly for

17:33

your grill, and it

17:35

has readouts. So I think you can stick a

17:37

couple probes in your cooking. You can

17:39

get the internal temperature of the

17:41

grill. You can get the internal temperature the

17:43

thing you're cooking and you get

17:46

everything you need on

17:48

the readout that's right in front of you.

17:51

If you pull out the

17:53

phone and pull up the app.

17:55

You can chart how your cooking is

17:57

going. So you can see how

17:59

the heat is going up. You can make sure

18:01

it is staying level so you're cooking at a nice level temperature

18:04

and you can know

18:06

when your food is done. That's

18:09

great because that's an add on.

18:11

And so when you have something

18:13

like

18:13

that, it is There's

18:16

nothing to ding you for. You

18:17

have everything you need without firing up your app.

18:19

But if you want a little more, great.

18:22

You've got it. And if you don't need it or

18:24

you don't want it, you don't have to fire it

18:26

up. And I think that's the best way

18:28

to go for a connected

18:30

appliance. Solid advice. Thank

18:33

you. What would you

18:35

say is on the other end of that spectrum?

18:37

A big kitchen appliance, a

18:39

fridge, a dishwasher,

18:42

a stove, a microwave, something

18:45

cooktop that has gone

18:47

overboard. It's just too

18:48

smart. It's

18:49

completely unnecessary. The

18:51

idea of a connected hub by

18:54

your refrigerator?

18:55

Okay. Like, this the screen that you're actually

18:57

supposed to -- Yes. -- touch on -- Yes. --

18:59

that you're supposed

19:00

to control all the things in your home from. Horrible.

19:02

Oh my god.

19:02

I remember seeing a Samsung fridge like a

19:05

decade

19:05

ago at

19:05

the Samsung experience store in New York City and they

19:07

were like, look, you can tweet from your fridge and

19:09

I was like, Why would I Oh,

19:12

no. I

19:13

saw that. I

19:14

went. Oh. No.

19:17

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Like, I mean, in

19:19

terms of Smart fridge

19:21

innovations, there was one a few years

19:23

ago where if you that had glass

19:24

windows, which you're kinda taking a risk

19:27

there because you're fridge is a mess.

19:29

Your fridge is a mess

19:30

and it's on

19:30

display. And if you knock on the window,

19:33

I think twice, it lights

19:34

up the fridge. Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. But

19:36

having some extra hub, another

19:38

screen, another way to distract

19:41

yourself in the middle of your kitchen that's

19:43

gonna eventually get old and

19:45

maybe be outdated before your

19:47

refrigerator is

19:47

old. We don't need that. Right. It's like, oh, you're

19:50

running low on milk because our sensors tell you

19:52

that and so you should add you should do some bloop,

19:54

bloop on the display here and add milk to your

19:56

grocery list. And I'm like, yep, then I can just

19:58

pull up Apple Notes on my phone and do the same

20:00

thing. And then it's with me when I go to

20:02

the grocery store.

20:02

No loops necessary.

20:04

No loops. No. And then the repairs,

20:06

we're not even getting the repairs. Yeah.

20:08

It's it is it is true that, you

20:10

know, generation ago, you could buy

20:12

an oven, and you would still be using that

20:14

oven. Mhmm. Whereas

20:15

if you

20:15

went out and bought a new oven now, maybe the

20:17

last ten years, talk about

20:19

your

20:19

dishwasher? Yes. I have this this

20:22

Danby roll it around dishwasher

20:24

that I bought seventeen

20:27

years ago. And it still

20:29

works great. Meanwhile, I

20:31

have recommended it to friends who've come over and

20:33

marveled at it and said, oh, look at that thing. I said, yeah.

20:35

You should totally get one. They take a picture

20:37

of the label on the back that shows the model

20:38

number, they order it, and it dies

20:41

within five years. So

20:42

it's like really hit or miss, I think. I don't think

20:44

it has anything to do with,

20:46

like, dandy's slow slide into, like,

20:49

crappy sweatshoot.

20:52

But I think it's, you know, it's a crapshoot. Like,

20:54

things may not last as long

20:56

as they used to. And I think a big

20:58

reason why a lot of smart things don't last

21:00

as long as they used to is

21:02

because of the chips. Right? Mhmm. It has

21:04

a printed circuit board in it. That has a limited

21:06

lifespan. The app may not be supported. The

21:08

company may go out of business. It may get swallowed up

21:10

by somebody else. And now all of a sudden, like, you know,

21:12

the app changes and it doesn't work with the thing

21:14

that you

21:15

bought. Three years ago. Mhmm.

21:16

Yep. I always I

21:17

always tell

21:17

people just to buy the dumbest thing you

21:20

can. My favorite button on

21:22

my microwave is the add thirty

21:24

seconds button. Oh, yeah. can do everything with

21:26

that. You can start your microwave. You can have

21:28

thirty more seconds. Like, you're not

21:30

doing complicated stuff in

21:32

there. And you don't need to add complication to it.

21:34

Yes. The the Add thirty seconds to this

21:36

is the best button in the whole kitchen. Right?

21:38

It's on the microwave. It's on the microwave. It's on the oven.

21:41

More. Right? Yeah. The a bit more button on the breville

21:43

toaster.

21:44

Yeah. Oh, I love that. They should not do an ad

21:46

forty six seconds button.

21:48

Y forty six. I

21:49

always punch in forty six, like a minute

21:51

forty six.

21:51

Because of the way that, like, the four and the six

21:54

are aligned on the on the keypad?

21:55

No. Because I don't like forty five.

21:57

What about forty

21:58

four? Yeah. I was two

21:58

forty four. Forty four

21:59

was great. You might recall. You know, you have to

22:01

rethink that. Is the problem.

22:05

I'm

22:05

not following this. We're talking in code.

22:08

Yeah. Alright.

22:10

Well, it's time to take another break, and then when we

22:12

come back, we'll do our recommendations.

22:14

Alright. This

22:17

is

22:21

the third and final part of our show.

22:23

Where we go around the room and we each

22:25

recommend a thing that our listeners might

22:27

enjoy. Joe, you are

22:29

our guest. So you get to

22:32

go first What's your

22:33

recommendation? Thank you, Mike. My

22:36

recommendation. You're so welcome.

22:37

My recommendation is

22:40

Allie Snagle's cookbook. Idea of dinner so you

22:42

don't have to.

22:43

And the premise on this one

22:45

is that it's recipes that take

22:47

less than forty five minutes

22:49

and use less than ten ingredients. But

22:52

unlike something you might pick up on

22:54

as an impulse purchase on Amazon,

22:57

which just isn't gonna do it

22:59

for you, This one is smart. It is

23:01

creative. It is like

23:03

auto lingi style

23:05

recipes. That you can do in a

23:07

short amount of time. And

23:10

when I wrote about this in my

23:12

last cookbook roundup, I

23:14

wanted to write so much more about this cookbook, and I thought

23:16

this would be the perfect time to sing its

23:18

praises. Nice. Sounds great.

23:20

What is what is the the

23:23

ideal the archetypal forty

23:25

five minute or less

23:26

recipe. My favorite recipe was

23:29

her polenta and lime butter that

23:31

gets a fresh boost with petas

23:33

cumin and lime. And then as a

23:35

fun trick, you take a

23:37

ear of fresh corn and you grate it

23:39

on a box grater and then you stir that in

23:41

at the end. And it is simple, it

23:44

is fast, and

23:46

it tastes five times

23:48

more creative and better

23:51

than anything I would have come up with on a Tuesday

23:52

night. Wow. Yeah.

23:54

That sounds so

23:54

delicious. It's really good. It's a

23:57

cookbook that I will

23:59

keep, and I see a lot of cookbooks that I

24:01

don't want to keep. And it's

24:03

a cookbook that I would hand off to my sister

24:05

who is one of the most discerning

24:08

natural chefs I've ever met

24:10

and she has no patience for a bad

24:12

cookbook and I think she would really enjoy this

24:14

one and that's a really good find for

24:16

me. That sounds

24:17

awesome. Shout out to Joe's sister.

24:18

Yeah. Hi, Gina. Discerning

24:21

Shout.

24:21

Joe, thank you for

24:22

yet another awesome cookbook recommendation,

24:25

Lauren. What is

24:27

your recommendation? My recommendation is I'm gonna put you on

24:29

the spot, snack. Okay.

24:32

Mike isn't

24:33

excellent. Chefs.

24:35

He's

24:35

right here. He's really, really good.

24:38

When I first moved into my current apartment,

24:40

this was about a year Mike and Boone

24:42

happen to be over one night and things were

24:44

going late. We were getting hungry. And I said,

24:46

maybe we should just order some food. And Mike said, no. No.

24:48

Let me just see what you have in the kitchen here. Rummaged

24:52

around, made us this

24:54

delicious vegan because he is

24:56

a vegan for those of you who listen to this

24:58

podcast know this because We talk about it all the

24:59

time. Much

25:00

of a

25:01

man. No. We're

25:02

right. No. We do. Right. Please go on. All

25:05

the time. Continue. Mike's like Please

25:07

go ahead. Please go ahead. Please continue. You made

25:10

this delicious spaghetti

25:12

with capers and red

25:15

pepper flakes. And what else was in it? Onion?

25:17

Tomato. Well, tomato. Yeah. And

25:19

then I think maybe we had some vegan

25:21

cheese on it. I definitely have regular

25:24

parmesan. It was so

25:26

delicious. And boone, do you remember this?

25:28

Yeah. Boone is nodding. He's

25:30

nodding. Not audibly. But and

25:33

then I went to your house and enjoyed

25:35

Thanksgiving last year with you and your wife,

25:37

Hillary, and you guys made a vegan sidesgiving -- Mhmm.

25:39

-- which is absolutely delicious, and I ate the

25:41

leftovers for about three days

25:42

afterwards. Me too. The

25:43

best part of Thanksgiving. Very good.

25:46

Absolutely best part. There

25:48

was this canalini bean dish.

25:50

Oh, yes. And the stuffing

25:52

was fantastic. And then

25:55

Mike recently came over to my place and we

25:57

were doing some batch cooking for a

25:59

friend of ours who needed some food

26:01

and made this pasta eat

26:02

Checchi. Am I saying that correctly? Yeah.

26:04

Or a k or a

26:05

pepsi. No. It

26:06

was a post visual. Oh,

26:08

pasta visual. Yeah. The

26:10

beans were chickpeas. But you say Checchi. Right?

26:12

Speak catchy. See. Sure.

26:15

Okay. Gosh. My

26:17

my Italian great grandmother would be very disappointed

26:19

in me right now and didn't speak a word of

26:21

English. But,

26:23

yeah, it's it's fantastic. And I think it's a

26:25

New York Times recipe? It

26:26

is. Yeah. It's adapted. To be adapted. Stay

26:29

chutchey. Yeah. It's so

26:31

so good. So I've made times since

26:33

then. And then it does this also

26:35

includes red pepper flakes, and you can be a little

26:37

bit generous with them. The first batch you made, Mike,

26:39

there was a lot spice

26:41

in it. And so then I froze it.

26:43

And by the time I opened it up and heated it

26:45

up again, the flavors had

26:47

really settled and it was

26:48

wow. Just mind blowing. Is this your

26:51

recommendation?

26:51

This recipe? I don't even know what my

26:52

recommendation is because now I just I'm so

26:55

hungry. I just wanna go eat. Maybe

26:57

it's have

26:57

Mike come over and cook for you. Yes.

27:00

It's actually the snack fight here, Michael

27:02

Colore is as his name

27:04

might suggest is an excellent

27:06

cook. Well,

27:07

thank you. I'm flattered. So you're well no.

27:09

You're welcome. But check out the pasta. I will link to the

27:11

pasta each hachi recipe

27:14

in the notes this week because I

27:16

think that's actually my

27:16

recommendation. I've really I've really enjoyed it. I've made

27:19

that

27:19

probably fifty times. It's

27:21

that good. Yeah. Yeah. It's

27:23

really, really good. And sometimes because I like to mix things

27:25

up for breakfast, as people know, I will have it

27:27

for breakfast with a little egg on

27:30

top. Nice. It's really good. The

27:32

ability to reflect that in a kitchen,

27:34

to look in a fridge, and come

27:36

up with a dish off

27:39

the cuff. Is a

27:41

secret genuine skill.

27:44

Every time I

27:44

cook, I use a recipe because I can't do

27:46

Well, like you were saying, it's practice. Practice.

27:49

Right. It's just having

27:52

confidence that, like, oh, I bet these

27:54

things would go together. And also, like, I

27:56

must say like a can of a can

27:58

of

27:58

tomatoes, crushed tomatoes, turning that into

28:00

a sauce is like pretty simple.

28:02

Goes long way. Yeah. Because the tomatoes matter

28:05

though. They do. What kind of tomatoes you use and

28:07

some people like the more sweet and the

28:10

yeah. I was just saying to Mike before we

28:12

started taping this that I actually I'm I'm

28:14

feeling this very strong desire right now to

28:16

go, like, move to the woods and not have

28:18

anything on my social calendar for about three

28:20

months because I haven't cooked in a while and I really

28:22

miss

28:22

cooking. I just don't wanna be I wanna be

28:24

alone. Mhmm.

28:24

I wanna

28:25

be alone. Just

28:26

cook That's

28:28

it. That's my recommendation. That's admirable.

28:30

Yeah. How

28:31

about you, Mike? What's your recommendation? Surprise,

28:34

surprise. Mine is also food related.

28:37

coffee related. Mhmm. So

28:39

I have a

28:41

very simple scale that I

28:43

use for weighing out my coffee beans

28:46

and then used for weighing out the water. And

28:48

I've had this thing for over a decade.

28:50

It's by a company called OXXO.

28:52

Mhmm. And it died.

28:54

Recently. Oh, no. Yeah. The

28:57

battery's leached, and it

28:59

ruined the battery cavity. And

29:01

now, like, just doesn't work anymore. So I had

29:03

to buy a new scale. In a kitchen scale, it's like

29:05

one of those things you must have, I think, if

29:07

you're serious, about

29:09

making bread or making things

29:11

that are kind of complicated that have a lot

29:13

of ingredients, it's really really good to just

29:15

have a scale. I

29:17

use a scale for coffee every day. So I

29:20

bought a coffee specific scale.

29:22

Oh. Same brand, I'm

29:24

a total loyalist Toll Homer. It's OXXO

29:27

Brew, and it's their precision scale

29:29

with timer. That's the name of the product.

29:32

So it's a scale. Mhmm. It

29:34

measures weights to a tenth of a

29:35

gram. Wow. So you can see that you have

29:37

twenty one point one grams of

29:40

beans or twenty point nine

29:42

grams of beans, which is like completely ridiculous.

29:44

But it has a timer built

29:45

in. And if you make pour over coffee, you

29:47

kinda need a timer. So that's

29:49

my recommendation. How much

29:50

is it? It was between fifty and sixty

29:53

dollars. Okay. Price is it? Oh,

29:55

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a

29:57

good scale is like thirty bucks. Mhmm. So this one was

29:59

a little bit more expensive, but I

30:01

think the fact that it's so sensitive and

30:03

that it has a timer built in makes the

30:05

extra cost worth it. I will

30:07

say, like, if you're serious about coffee, you

30:09

probably already have a scale. If you're

30:11

serious in the kitchen, you probably already have

30:13

a scale. But when your scale dies,

30:16

it's a sad day. Yeah. Because then you're just

30:18

like, oh my god. I have to guess how much water I'm

30:20

pouring in. Whatever I'm pouring too much, and it runs over, and

30:22

it gets all over me at whatever.

30:26

When your scale dies and you need a new

30:28

one, consider this one because it's it's

30:30

awesome. It's also very

30:31

fast. Is it versatile enough that you

30:34

can also weigh out flower

30:36

for

30:37

bread for instance? Yeah. It's a six

30:40

pound scale. Okay. So it stops

30:42

recording after after six pounds. So

30:44

yeah, I used it I used it to make some

30:46

bread. Okay. But

30:46

you could get get away with just one scale

30:49

and that could be your scale?

30:50

Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. I think unless you're cooking things, there are more

30:53

than six pounds. Fair. I have

30:55

not encountered a recipe that's more than six pounds. Whole pumpkin.

30:57

Whole

30:58

pumpkin.

30:59

Is very unrelated, but I also like

31:01

the oxo brush for

31:03

washing dishes.

31:04

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Make a good

31:06

one. Yeah. The one is it the one that you

31:09

put the soap inside the brush?

31:09

That's pretty great. It's just

31:12

phenomenal. Great stuff. They really

31:13

do. Yeah. We've

31:14

written about them in wired. Does it

31:15

oh, yeah. Yeah. And this is not

31:18

spawncon. No.

31:18

We should not. Should note that this is, like,

31:21

they it's a it's a good company that

31:23

makes smart stuff. Lot of plastic

31:24

though. We don't need more plastic. No.

31:27

We

31:27

don't. But hopefully, it'll last you for a very long

31:29

time. Hope

31:29

so. Hope

31:30

so. I second all

31:31

that. Joe, you

31:33

need to come back more often

31:35

so we can just talk about food for the

31:38

podcast. Do that

31:38

if I didn't live so far away. I'll turn this

31:40

into the food lab. Where do you live?

31:43

Seattle. It's

31:44

not that far. Yeah.

31:46

Short flight. I was just there last week. Yeah. You can

31:48

bike it in

31:48

like a week. No problem.

31:50

No problem. Alright.

31:51

That's our show. Thanks again, Joe Ray,

31:54

for joining us. Such

31:55

a pleasure to be here. Thank you. It's

31:57

so great to have you, Joe. And thank you all for

31:59

listening. If you have feedback, you could find all

32:01

of us on Twitter, just check the show notes.

32:03

Our producer is Boone

32:04

Ashworth. We will be back next

32:07

week until then. Goodbye.

32:10

Bon appetites. Bon appetites.