0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:05

more. Now

0:14

here's one thing I'm certain about when it comes to the future.

0:17

What do I know? Well I know

0:19

that the world's going to be a

0:21

much brighter place. Although

0:25

sadly, I don't mean that in a cheery

0:27

kind of way. It's

0:32

estimated that by 2030, more than 100,000 satellites

0:35

are likely to be buzzing around

0:37

in low-Earth orbit. And the

0:40

implication of that for our dark skies is potentially

0:42

significant. We'll explain more shortly. And

0:46

then there's the rapid advances in everyday

0:48

lighting technology. What

0:50

is really worrying from a study that came out

0:52

last year is over the last 10 or 11

0:54

years, the sky has

0:56

been brightening on average at about 10% per

0:59

year. So

1:01

while the new lighting technology

1:03

has the capability to

1:05

light our communities in a way that is

1:07

responsible and reduces light pollution, and

1:09

practice the way that we have applied it has

1:12

led to an acceleration in light pollution and a

1:14

loss of natural darkness. But

1:19

the solution to that problem, says Ruskin

1:21

Hartley from Dark Sky International, is

1:23

entirely within our technical grasp. Hello,

1:26

Anthony Fennell here. This is Future Tense,

1:28

where we unpick the complexities of our

1:31

fast-moving, shape-shifting world, and

1:33

help signpost paths to the future. Now,

1:36

Dark Sky International is a non-profit

1:38

environmental and advocacy organisation based in

1:40

Arizona in the US, but

1:42

it has affiliates right across the world. But

2:00

there are also places that are taking steps

2:02

to both protect it through quality lighting and

2:05

also critically inviting people out to go

2:07

and appreciate it and enjoy it. There

2:10

are now more than 200 places

2:12

around the world and Lassej Cek

2:14

does four in Australia and many

2:16

more places striving to get this

2:18

recognition. It's really about a

2:20

community coming together to both recognize the value

2:23

in the dark sky but also take those

2:25

steps to protect it. So it's more than

2:27

just going out and saying, hey, we have

2:29

a naturally dark place here. Let's

2:31

call it a dark sky place. These are

2:34

places that they've done the hard work to

2:36

monitor and assess the quality of the night

2:38

sky. They have inventoried all

2:41

of the lights within the park or

2:43

within their community. They've taken

2:45

steps to retrofit and replace those lights

2:47

with ones that have a lower impact

2:49

on the environment and they have come

2:51

together to enact some policies that are

2:54

really focused on ensuring these best practices

2:56

for responsible lighting are put in place

2:58

and maintained. It's really about recognizing

3:00

people are striving, seeking out these experiences and

3:02

when they go there, we don't want

3:04

them taking all that bad lighting habits out

3:07

of these places. So it's really looking

3:09

at putting those protections in place from

3:11

the very start so those values can be

3:13

maintained. We did a program on light

3:15

pollution quite a few years ago with predictions

3:17

that there were some countries in the

3:19

world where natural light was just

3:21

not possible anymore, that light pollution was such

3:24

a factor. Since that

3:26

time, we've had major advances in

3:28

lighting technology. How has that impacted

3:30

the situation? Over the last

3:32

10 years, there has been a revolution in

3:34

lighting technology. In essence, the old incandescent bulb

3:36

that was with us for more than 100

3:38

years has all intents

3:41

and purposes gone from any locations

3:43

to be replaced by LED, lighting

3:45

technology, solid state lighting technology. Now

3:47

the great thing about LEDs is

3:49

they're much more energy efficient. They're

3:52

very efficient at converting energy into light.

3:55

One Of the things that's happened, though, as light

3:57

has become so cheap and so ubiquitous, we have

3:59

simply used it. More more of it.

4:01

We have lit up new areas and

4:03

we have let up place of more

4:05

brightly. And while L E D technology

4:07

can certainly be used and has incredible

4:09

potential to be used to reduce light

4:11

pollution when it's used thoughtlessly is actually

4:13

lead to an increase in life loosens

4:15

of we look at some the statistics

4:17

be know that eighty six percent of

4:19

people around the world live under light

4:21

polluted skies and fact where I live

4:23

in North America where I grew up

4:26

in Europe the numbers now ninety nine

4:28

percent and I'm sure the vast majority.

4:30

Of people even in Australia. While they

4:32

have access to accidentally dug places, many

4:34

of those live in light polluted cities,

4:36

and that certainly mates. I'm one of

4:39

those people. living in a big city,

4:41

isn't it almost impossible to sleep when

4:43

is too much like coming through the

4:45

window? To me, it's an annoyance. But

4:48

the broader impact of light pollution, not

4:50

just on Paypal, but also the environment,

4:52

is not to be ignored, says Ruskin

4:54

hardly. Without a doubt, artificial light has

4:57

done some incredible thing some society by

4:59

extending our. Ability to be active

5:01

into the evenings and know how

5:03

to comply. Sports as at night

5:05

and weekend gun recreate with our

5:07

friends and we can get home

5:10

safely. But more more what we're

5:12

learning as light pollution excesses. Light

5:14

at night is having a tremendous

5:16

impact on the natural world. Millions

5:18

of migrating birds had told into

5:20

brought us cities were in the

5:22

Us alone a billion a killed

5:25

each year colliding with buildings, many

5:27

of your turtle nesting beaches in

5:29

Australia affected. By brightly

5:31

lit cities and communities leading to

5:33

the last summer, their nesting habitat

5:35

will loving more more bodies and

5:37

the impact on plants and animals

5:39

and and from our climate perspective,

5:41

wasted lie to wasted energy, all

5:43

of those lights burning incessantly all

5:45

night he murdered no one around

5:47

are using fossil fuels in many

5:49

instances because it when the Han

5:51

and it also has an impact

5:53

on human biology. Many of us

5:55

like to sleep in the dark

5:57

rooms and we know of course

5:59

bus. Disrupting one as bright

6:01

My to that will. now starting

6:03

to understand that it's not just

6:06

a loss of sleep, it's actually

6:08

affecting our fundamental rhythms. Aussie taken

6:10

rhythms are being disrupted by excessive

6:12

light at night, and those disruptions

6:15

have been linked to whole suite

6:17

of diseases. A modern society from

6:19

diabetes and cancer to stroke or

6:21

and even mental health issues. So

6:24

really, Artificial light at night? Excessive

6:26

light pollution? Something tremendous impact on

6:28

the natural and human. World. One

6:30

of the things that surprised me in

6:32

looking at some of the issues that

6:34

your organization campaigns on his the concern

6:37

over the numbers satellites that an hour

6:39

currently and I were to orbits but

6:41

I get to the south are you

6:43

see their We used to think that

6:45

if he traveled far enough from acidity

6:47

you could go out and you could

6:49

experience and actually dark sky and touched

6:52

for the impact to says model civilization

6:54

a know satellites are not the right

6:56

headlights have been around for decades hair

6:58

and bring tremendous benefits but what's. Been

7:00

happening in the last two years.

7:02

It has been a rapid expansion

7:04

in the number satellite satellite there's

7:06

a offering broadband connectivity to essentially

7:08

any place on earth and when

7:10

the first set of these new

7:12

generation a satellite launch number of

7:14

years ago the colleague that lights

7:16

astronomers looked at the wonder what

7:18

the streets of like don't across

7:20

the sky in these large trains

7:22

were and those with a reflection

7:25

from the satellites coming back to

7:27

earth with tremendous impact on astronomy

7:29

but also just changing. The experience

7:31

of these night skies. There are

7:33

now projections that there might be

7:35

as many as one hundred thousand

7:37

satellites and low earth orbit by

7:39

the end of a decade. Twice

7:41

as tremendous impact on the visual

7:43

in town for the night sky.

7:45

Perfectly talk locations but more more

7:47

understanding the life cycle. In fact

7:49

to the satellites the have an

7:51

average life span of about four

7:53

or five years as essentially means

7:55

we will need to continuously orbit

7:57

and continuously deorbit satellites to maintain

7:59

peace. Maybe constellations? One day whole

8:01

Bay Window satellite launched that is

8:04

to posting certain various things in

8:06

the upper atmosphere, this forcing climate

8:08

change and went out the orbiting.

8:10

They don't just disappear these satellites

8:12

and that aluminum are being ground

8:15

up in the upper atmosphere, changing

8:17

the composition of atmosphere and lossy.

8:19

more. Most scientists are concerned about

8:21

runaway collisions where one satellite if

8:23

it fails of may be breaks

8:26

up in those little bit for

8:28

debris or to be off. What

8:30

others have? A runaway collision, potentially

8:32

losing access to whole swaths of

8:35

law school bet with tremendous consequences

8:37

for Science Center observations and others.

8:40

I think that's really what's happening

8:42

if we are transforming our use

8:44

of space and lower orbit so

8:47

rapidly and we're not really thinking

8:49

through the consequences and how we

8:52

can goblin the said Commons over

8:54

our heads in the way that

8:56

benefits everyone. Now. You'll also

8:59

science center and advocacy

9:01

organization. Ah companies are, for

9:03

example, spice companies. Are they taking

9:05

these kind of concerns on board?

9:07

The. Yes, I'd say they are being

9:10

suddenly. There have been many productive

9:12

conversations with some of the leading

9:14

satellite operators Sweeping part of those

9:16

are the group site international Strawman

9:18

Union are leading in some of

9:20

those, but it's also really challenging.

9:22

Set of issues going on. A

9:24

this is not any actor, this

9:26

is not any wanna government and

9:28

there is no really good form

9:30

for that discussion about how we

9:32

governed out of space to be

9:34

sustainable for every one, right? So

9:37

it's not just. What the U S

9:39

is doing it's what China's doing. It's

9:41

was induced whom it's was Europe's during

9:43

it's New Zealand than others and or

9:45

emergence spacefaring nations. How we can to

9:48

ensure that these benefits accrue to everyone

9:50

and that we do it in a

9:52

sustainable manner. I I think they're to

9:54

sense that space is infinite cause it

9:57

turned out know awful. That is quite

9:59

fine. I. Then we need to figure out

10:01

a way of using is no way that ensures

10:03

them and will continue to be. Returning

10:12

back to Earth and as I mentioned

10:14

earlier there a simple things we as

10:16

individuals and communities can do to limit

10:18

light pollution. Da Sky

10:21

International has what it calls

10:23

It's five principles for responsible

10:25

outdoor lighting. A nice thing

10:27

about Light Blue Server unlike many of

10:29

the other challenges that the world is

10:31

facing today her the solutions are there

10:33

within reach from a technical perspective. So

10:35

we're really looking at our ability As

10:37

a society comes a dozen that the

10:39

knock them at scale and if you

10:42

take steps to mitigate like to single

10:44

scene immediate impact right you'll see an

10:46

immediate impact often in terms of that

10:48

year Approve invisibility pies are not responsible

10:50

like and principles and your sunday lessening

10:52

your use of energy and you look

10:54

reducing the impact on the overall planet.

10:57

And this is not about turning off

10:59

all the lights and plunging the world

11:01

into medieval darkness. This is about learning

11:03

to things about natural doctors as a

11:05

valuable resource and light or something to

11:07

be used sparingly to meet our needs.

11:10

So. Vice Principals responsible outdoor lighting with

11:12

them all by hours of the leading

11:14

to the Lighting Organization Illuminating Engineer Society

11:16

and the principles when followed can be

11:18

applied at a house scale that could

11:20

be applied as city scale. The principles

11:22

like is a useful use it when

11:24

it's needed it it targeted for you

11:26

putting it down as a ground on

11:28

the war. use it as opposed up

11:30

in the sky. Think about using lower

11:32

light levels. We know that our eyes

11:34

can adapt to natural darkness, is used

11:36

to much lighter textee constricts or pupils

11:38

so he can see less of. Things

11:40

about controlling it because the great thing about

11:42

most lighting technology could have the light on

11:44

what he needed. you condemn it down and

11:47

tied off when it's not needed. And think

11:49

about using warmer Cutler's with my So's warm

11:51

colors more like into candlelight as the bus,

11:53

the bright harsh light colors more like the

11:55

midday sun. And so by following these principles

11:58

you can assure the a beautiful well. spaces

12:00

for safety and assurance whilst minimizing the

12:02

impact on your neighbours and the wildlife

12:04

from the planet around us. We

12:07

will link to those five principles on our

12:09

website. Raskin Hartley from Darkshire International, thank

12:11

you very much for joining us on Future

12:13

Tents. Pleasure to be with you, thanks so

12:15

much for having us on. Paleo

12:26

conservation is one of those scientific

12:28

disciplines that has a future focus

12:31

while also focusing on the past.

12:33

And as the word paleo would suggest,

12:35

we're talking about the very distant past.

12:39

It's pretty simple really, I mean basically

12:41

in order to understand what's happening today

12:43

with respect to anything, whether we're talking

12:45

about politics, animal diversity or whatever, 99.9%

12:50

of what you need to understand is what's happened in the

12:52

past. Michael Archer, a professor

12:54

in biological sciences at the University

12:56

of New South Wales. So what

12:59

we've been doing is charting how

13:01

animals and some plants have been

13:03

changing over the last 25

13:06

million years in Australia using mostly

13:08

the World Heritage Fossil Deposits and

13:11

Riversly and drawing dots

13:13

through time over that period and saying

13:15

well how have all these various groups

13:17

been changing over 25 million

13:19

years? What's been happening for example

13:21

to koalas or the platypus or

13:23

in this particular case some of

13:25

the possums and does understanding how

13:27

they have changed to become what

13:30

we see them today help us understand

13:32

what we need to do to conserve

13:34

them into the future. And part of

13:37

the reason for this is what we

13:39

see today is usually a tiny fraction

13:41

of the capacity, the innate resilience of

13:43

these animals to adapt to particular habitats.

13:46

So if we only judge them by

13:48

way we see them today we're going

13:50

to miss out on a lot of

13:53

potentially important information about where we might

13:55

be able to move them where they'll

13:57

survive the coming Climate Change. That's

14:00

what we call this Paleo Conservation

14:02

is using paleontology to assist in

14:04

ways that otherwise we might never

14:06

have thought. To. Conserve critically endangered

14:08

species into the future and that's what

14:11

we're doing. So you're looking at fossils

14:13

of animals and your you're trying to

14:15

work out where they may have lived

14:17

in the past and whether that particular

14:19

area is now a better match for

14:21

them to die and into the future.

14:23

Is that correct? That is absolutely correct

14:25

and sometimes it's mind blowing. In some

14:27

situations we would be positive that these

14:29

animals that were looking at have always

14:31

been in that particular habitat. We see

14:34

them in to day things like for

14:36

example the marsupial know which is. All

14:38

through deserts and Central Australia we don't even

14:40

know how rare it is because it's so

14:42

and commonly encountered. But. We found

14:44

their ancestors, their immediate ancestors in

14:47

low and rain forest in these

14:49

rigorously fossil deposits, indicating that there

14:51

is much greater innate resilience and

14:53

these animals then the living representatives

14:55

would indicate so is the audio

14:57

then that he might be able

14:59

to take an animal that struggling

15:01

in a habitat to die. Move.

15:04

It to a site where you know it existed

15:06

in the past where the habitat is now difference

15:08

of and I may well be able to to

15:10

catch on and have bob a large then. Exactly

15:13

in the case of this that

15:15

particular animal we focused on first

15:17

year of the Mountain Pygmy Possum.

15:19

Today it only occurs and the

15:21

alpine areas in New South Wales

15:23

and Victoria and it's critically endangered

15:25

is down to around two thousand

15:27

individuals and one warm winter could

15:29

actually obliterate the whole species because

15:32

they need the snow in the

15:34

Alpine eerie, the insulate the rock

15:36

piles in which they hibernate to

15:38

survive the winters. If the snow

15:40

is gone, the a cold winter

15:42

air goes. Down into the rock

15:44

piles and goodbye possums. So

15:46

mostly colleges have concluded that.

15:49

This. Is going to be one of the

15:51

first casualties among strictly in mammals. It will

15:53

be the mountain pygmy possum the first one

15:56

to sort of turn up its toes and

15:58

drop dead. But as paleontologists we. Pleading

16:00

for nearly fifteen years to not

16:02

make this assumption before exploring some

16:04

other potential alternatives. And we've been

16:06

following the immediate ancestral populations for

16:08

this animal spanning the last twenty

16:10

five million years, and every time

16:12

we see it it's in cool

16:14

tempered lola and rain forest, not

16:16

alpine areas, so we think it

16:18

got kind of trick as it

16:21

were to following some of the

16:23

rain forest at some point in

16:25

the ice ages in the pleistocene,

16:27

up the flanks of the Great

16:29

Dividing Range. Thinking that that was going

16:31

to be a suitable habitat for it but

16:33

then climate change happen and stranded them in

16:36

the alpine zone where they couldn't get back

16:38

to the rain forest which was they preferred

16:40

habitat and they can't do it now because

16:42

there's no connected. Habitat that links. The

16:45

Alpine Zone to the Low in

16:47

Forests. So we're arguing that before

16:49

we write this animal or less

16:51

trial, getting a population of them

16:53

may be no more than even

16:56

twenty individuals and set them up

16:58

in the low and area because

17:00

we predicted they would be as

17:02

happy as pigs in mud, they

17:04

would start enjoying life without the

17:07

critical climate conditions the Alpine Zone

17:09

And that's exactly what we're finding.

17:11

We have a population of them

17:13

now in a breeding facility in

17:15

Lithgow and Secret Creek Sanctuary. We

17:18

raised about half a million dollars

17:20

and it's a beautiful, purpose built

17:22

sanctuary now the duplicates of of

17:24

the rocky environments that occur in

17:26

the Alpine zone, but not the

17:29

Alpine conditions. So we're encouraging these

17:31

animals to become aware of their

17:33

innate ability to survive in a

17:35

non alpine environments. And that's exactly

17:37

what's happening. They are now not

17:39

hibernating, they enjoying the cool to

17:42

warm temperatures. In fact, sometimes hot

17:44

temperatures. Are below and areas. Renzi Could Creek. And.

17:46

you know mating and producing little possum

17:48

south exactly what said was likely to

17:51

happen and stage to for this project

17:53

would then be taking some of the

17:55

surplus individuals from this breeding facility and

17:57

start trial releasing them in a controlled

17:59

way in who loel in rainforest to see

18:01

if they won't re-establish back in the habitat

18:03

that has always kept them happy for the

18:05

last 25 million years. And

18:08

we don't have to say goodbye to

18:10

this possum. And you believe this approach

18:12

can be done with other animals, with

18:14

a variety of animals that currently face

18:16

a threat of extinction? Absolutely. In the

18:18

paper that we wrote and published about

18:20

the plan to save this possum, we

18:22

cited a number of other animals we

18:24

knew that had a similar kind of

18:26

legacy, a fossil record, that suggested we

18:28

could have these kind of innovative paleoconservation

18:31

strategies to save them. Another example

18:33

would be the Western swamp tortoise.

18:36

It's about to go extinct in

18:38

WA at the swamp's dry up.

18:40

But interestingly, we have found the

18:42

same turtle in cool temperate loel

18:45

in rainforest pools in rivers. So

18:48

we know they have broader resilience than

18:50

we might assume they otherwise have just

18:52

looking at the living situation they're in.

18:54

So we're saying before we lose this

18:57

turtle, we should be trialing, removing some

18:59

populations of this endangered animal into

19:01

loel in rainforest, even if it

19:04

has to be Eastern Australia, but

19:06

trial other habitats where it's likely

19:08

to be happy. And importantly, we're

19:11

learning also, looking at these ancient

19:13

fossil deposits, these riversly rainforest deposits,

19:15

we're learning that there is something

19:18

wrong with today's rainforest environments. Compared

19:20

with the species diversity we see, which was

19:23

normal for Australian rainforest, today's rainforest only have

19:25

about half the number of animals in them

19:27

that they can otherwise support. So

19:29

we're even suggesting that if species are

19:32

becoming or struggling to survive in some

19:34

non-rainforest environments, let's have a look at

19:36

the fossil record and think about this.

19:39

It may be that we could pack more species

19:42

into existing rainforests and they'll be compatible and get

19:44

on with each other because they have for the

19:46

last 25 million years. So

19:48

many things to think about here. How

19:50

can you be certain though that they

19:53

will adapt to their old environment? What's

19:55

the risk that they've actually changed

19:58

physiologically over time? Well, Let's always

20:00

the possibility, and that's why you would

20:02

trial these releases. That the mere demonstration

20:04

that we just had of the mountain

20:06

Big Me Possum is this encouragement to

20:08

say that the innate resilience here is

20:11

still there and still viable. Even the

20:13

question about whether they would get on

20:15

with other species if you put them

20:17

back into their ancestral habitat. Are.

20:19

They going to cause any problem for

20:21

everything else for that's where. looking at

20:23

these ancient communities, these fossil communities is

20:26

this an indication of how many different

20:28

species can get on with each other

20:30

in all the different kinds of possums

20:32

and so on. So we have a

20:34

very good idea from the fossil record

20:36

of what a working community looks like

20:38

in these situations. We. Should think

20:40

out of the box globally. not the

20:42

sort of focused on this tell your

20:44

conservation issue for Israel. Yeah, for example

20:46

might sound strange, but we do know

20:48

that polar bears are critically endangered now

20:50

in the Arctic and it's because of

20:52

global warming. All the ice sheets are

20:55

are melting. the seals don't sit on

20:57

them so that the portal polar bears

20:59

are starving to death. And. Effective

21:01

trying to move south and they're

21:03

encountering Alaskan browns and is all

21:05

kinds of issues here? Well, why

21:08

wouldn't we consider Frawley moving population

21:10

of polar bears into Antarctica? Yeah,

21:13

I think about them is bi polar bears

21:15

because there's no problem yet need to be

21:17

hundreds of years before Antarctica has of meltdown.

21:20

And. Yes, they're going to gobble up

21:22

a few penguins, but there's a lot

21:24

of penguins down there and be one

21:26

way of conserving this species that's otherwise

21:28

going to be exterminated in the Northern

21:30

Hemisphere. A controversial approach, though defined with

21:32

his whole idea of tiger conservation. the

21:34

people just don't get it. Just don't

21:37

get the idea of looking to the

21:39

past in order to create a better

21:41

future. Yes, and and for the last

21:43

fifteen or twenty years with is beating

21:45

our head against a brick wall to

21:47

try to get Fornell managers to think

21:49

about these strategies. Because they're not traditional

21:51

ways of trying to conserve species,

21:53

the traditional approaches to somehow think

21:55

we must preserve the current situation

21:57

we find them in the let's.

22:00

Becoming increasingly impossible. Climate.

22:02

Change is going to be changing All have a cat.

22:04

So. We we can't afford any to

22:06

do business. As usual, conservation is important

22:09

to keep trying that and you know

22:11

I would never argue that we should

22:13

stop doing the things we're doing now

22:15

to conserve habitat. That The reality is,

22:17

we have to do more than that. Because.

22:19

Those habitats themselves are going to change.

22:21

We can preserve animals. In order to

22:24

conserve them, We need to conserve them.

22:26

And that means thinking creatively about what

22:28

kind of situations might be able to

22:30

see. these animals is the current situation

22:32

is not going to be able to

22:34

continue to do that into the future.

22:37

Professor. Mikasa, thank you very much for

22:39

joining us on T to test it! Surprises!

22:50

Me today to the outskirts

22:52

of stock on the Swedish

22:54

capital with a building a

22:57

home you city district offices,

22:59

restaurants, residential towers, a lot.

23:02

What's so interesting about that or

23:04

he say well if I tell

23:06

you that the name of the

23:08

project is the Stockholm Old City

23:10

I think you'll get the just

23:12

so Why build on such a

23:14

large scale with Simba Business Development

23:16

director of can him agree. That

23:19

off the benefits and they i mean some

23:21

it or the actual official thing though if

23:23

they look at their picks and how they're

23:26

architects has tried to visualize the idea of

23:28

the project. It's really beautiful building funniest would

23:30

them you get us organic material seen that

23:32

he can have green us off So that's

23:34

first one aspect where where make more livable.

23:37

a happy place where people want to live

23:39

or to work of course their benefits in

23:41

building process we can build faster. Rican racer

23:43

framing of a building may be cut a

23:46

sad of the time when we're in the

23:48

building process. the c o

23:50

two emissions cutting it by or

23:52

must forty percent by us sensing

23:54

from concrete into good so that's

23:56

a huge benefits and the benefits

23:59

also being It's not a new

24:01

technology, it's something we already got. So

24:03

it doesn't need research or years of

24:05

experimentation and so on. So we can

24:07

just start using wood in the buildings

24:09

and by that cutting the sea to

24:12

emissions. I imagine there'd also be benefits

24:14

in terms of construction noise if you're

24:16

going with wood rather than concrete and

24:18

rather than predominantly steel. Yeah, it's really

24:20

impressive when you visit a construction site

24:22

where there are building in wood because

24:24

it's really less noisy. And

24:26

in this area where we're building already in

24:29

a dense urban area, it's really important to

24:31

build faster, which you also can do with

24:33

wood, but also more quiet. Once

24:36

the building is completed, the atmosphere you get

24:38

when you go into a wooden building, you

24:40

can feel it directly. There's something different in

24:42

it. You say that you reduce stress levels,

24:44

the humidity is more comfortable and so on.

24:47

So there are lots of benefits we see

24:49

in building wood. And you're inspired, aren't you,

24:51

by that notion of the 15-minute city that

24:53

people should be able to get to where

24:56

they want to within 15 minutes? That's

24:59

really important in all our development projects.

25:01

And for this project, you can almost

25:03

reach it within the five minutes city

25:05

because it's so dense and we've got

25:08

all those services and everything within almost

25:10

a five-minute working distance. So yeah, it's

25:12

important to do the mix and we

25:14

have a long perspective to keep owning

25:16

this area and developing over time. So

25:19

it's an urban area and it's got

25:21

a very good public transport communications and

25:24

we have always been working with a

25:26

mixed use. So we think that's the

25:28

successful city where you don't just

25:30

build offices, just residential. So for

25:33

the last 25 years, we've been developing

25:35

the area and we got schools, we

25:37

got theaters and culture centers, we got

25:39

healthcare centers, we got offices and retail

25:41

and residential. So it's a mixed use

25:43

with all different types of buildings. So

25:45

that's why it makes it also an

25:47

interesting project. It's not just a residential

25:49

wooden area, it's a mixed use, which

25:52

I think is the success factor for

25:54

this project. Is this a one-off or

25:56

is this likely to be the way a

25:59

country like Sweden... They will go in the future

26:01

with all of it's building. I. Think the

26:03

last couple of years we've seen lots of

26:05

other developers are actually take steps into building

26:07

a bridge so that more and more products

26:09

coming out. We are a bit unique because

26:11

we've built a very large currently with many

26:13

buildings in a small area sir as unique

26:16

for us but I can see it in

26:18

Sweden is just growing and growing and would

26:20

is not the solution for every country and

26:22

me. We got a big far as the

26:24

industry and we've been using put this in

26:26

this and different sectors for and modern Hundred

26:28

years of for us is not just the

26:30

Us to use it for housing so. I

26:33

think it will grow and probably other countries

26:35

The file will increase the use of would

26:37

because they're effective as on sustainability. If you

26:39

can cut the see to miss him by

26:41

for to present it's really it's but as

26:43

he say and it's it's an important point.

26:46

There are areas the world where they aren't

26:48

is blessed if you like with timber resources.

26:50

We know the timber plantations in many parts

26:52

of the will have put on a lot

26:54

of pressure on night of foreign something so

26:56

that's why I mean it's It's not the

26:58

solution for every country and so on but

27:00

the say Sweden and Finland. We got. A

27:03

Forest and have we been using it as

27:05

an industry far more than one hundred years?

27:07

So to solely as far as knock on

27:09

wood city they will have already been planted

27:12

sixty to eighty years ago in an industrial

27:14

way. So we're already kind of increasing the

27:16

total mass of timber in Sweden of the

27:18

last hundred years of thing for double the

27:20

amount of forest in that time. So bad

27:23

that whacking industry but of course they can

27:25

be done more for biodiversity are so on.

27:27

Them have to use the forest in them

27:29

that of way and so on. but there

27:32

for Sweden and Finland. For something, we

27:34

have a good death. possibilities to use

27:36

timbers even more. And what's the construction

27:38

timeline? So. We're gonna start

27:40

one residential projects with about eighty flats and

27:43

we were lots of stuff as good projects

27:45

or this year two buildings and stuff to

27:47

be built and then there it's it. modern

27:49

turn their fifties houses. Grammys is gonna take

27:52

some time to complete the whole friday so

27:54

saw a might be at ten fifteen years

27:56

time process for the whole area to be

27:59

developed. refit, com, About the on with

28:01

such a big scale products because they

28:03

find that there are solutions stuff for

28:05

fire at humidity some problems the so

28:07

i'm sick and bacon this can skate

28:09

when you great does beam the sands

28:11

floor slaps i don't see a key

28:13

can be very exact with their how

28:15

you come out to sign some forms

28:17

the so unfair think you can create

28:19

lots of unix products. Visible void in

28:21

a building is a beautiful like them

28:23

to look at that big stock addictions.

28:25

The signs would be really unique for

28:27

this project. The

28:32

stock I'm would city and we were

28:34

speaking day with business development director how

28:36

him and Grim. Current

28:38

event of it's Is My Feet and Co

28:41

creator I'm Anthony for now. Until next on.

28:44

Cheese. You've

28:58

been listening to an A B C

29:00

podcasts. Discover more great

29:02

A D C Podcasts Live Radio.

29:05

and exclusive on A B C.