Podchaser Logo
Home
The Ayatollah and Israel

The Ayatollah and Israel

Released Saturday, 20th April 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
The Ayatollah and Israel

The Ayatollah and Israel

The Ayatollah and Israel

The Ayatollah and Israel

Saturday, 20th April 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
Rate Episode

Episode Transcript

Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.

Use Ctrl + F to search

0:00

This is the BBC. Access

0:30

expertly crafted and hard to find pieces

0:32

that redefine luxury. Your next investment awaits

0:34

at ReBag. Get 10% off

0:37

your first purchase with code REBAG10. That's

0:39

10% off the luxury you deserve. Don't

0:41

miss out. Head to rebag.com and

0:43

enter code REBAG10 at checkout. That's

0:46

R-E-B-A-G-1-0. Ryan Reynolds

0:48

Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. With the

0:50

price of just about everything going up during

0:52

inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down.

0:55

So to help us, we brought in a reverse

0:58

auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint

1:00

Mobile unlimited, premium wireless. How did you get

1:02

30-30? How did you get 30-30? How

1:04

did you get 30-30? How did you get 30-40? You bet you get

1:06

20-20, you bet you get 15-15, 15-15, just 15 bucks a month. Sold!

1:11

$45 september for three months plus taxes and fees. Promote

1:13

for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40

1:15

gigabytes per month, slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. BBC

1:22

Sounds, music radio podcasts.

1:25

Hello. Today, as Ukraine's Prime

1:27

Minister warns of Russian victory

1:30

could herald a third world

1:32

war, we hear how

1:34

the country has struggled amid waning

1:36

Western support. Immigration

1:38

is a hot-button issue in

1:40

general elections around the world this year.

1:43

We hear how it's playing out in

1:45

South Africa. In Portugal,

1:47

it's 50 years since the

1:50

Carnation Revolution. We

1:52

meet the former resistance fighters

1:54

who stood against the country's

1:56

former dictator, Antonio Salazar. And

1:59

for the first time in the world, from the

2:01

dense rainforests of Eastern Indonesia to

2:03

the soaring skyscrapers of Hong

2:05

Kong. We hear how

2:07

the yellow-crestered cockatoos have adapted to

2:10

life in the big city. But

2:13

first, across the Middle East and

2:15

beyond, people have been watching developments

2:18

between Iran and Israel. After

2:21

an attack on Iran's consulate in

2:23

Damascus, widely understood to have been

2:25

launched by Israel, last

2:27

weekend Iran launched its

2:29

first-ever direct attack on Israel.

2:33

Then came US reports of an attack

2:35

on the Iranian city of Isfahan. Both

2:38

Western and regional diplomats have

2:40

called for de-escalation. Liz

2:43

Dusette reflects on the rise to

2:45

power of the man who will

2:47

ultimately decide what Tehran might

2:49

do next. We

2:52

had to arrive by noon on June 6, 1989.

2:56

That was the deadline, to enter Iran

2:58

without a visa, to report

3:01

on the funeral of Iran's

3:03

revolutionary leader Ayatollah Khomeini. We

3:06

made it, with minutes to spare, to

3:08

the southern port city of Bandar Abbas.

3:10

And there we watched on state television,

3:13

the striking images from the

3:15

streets of the capital Tehran. A human

3:18

tide so frenzied, the

3:20

cleric's body fell out of his wooden

3:22

coffin, carried away momentarily

3:24

by the swell of the crowds.

3:27

It was feared his burial would be delayed

3:29

by days. What couldn't

3:32

wait was the choice of a new

3:34

leader to send a sign of a

3:36

smooth transition. Two days earlier,

3:38

that announcement had been made. And

3:41

it was only many years later that

3:43

a video emerged of what happened behind

3:45

the scenes. A 50-year-old

3:47

Shia cleric, not yet an

3:50

Ayatollah, but a middle-ranking Hozha'at-ul-Islam,

3:52

was seen protesting. I

3:54

truly don't deserve this position. But

3:58

Ali Khamenei was overruled. He would

4:00

accept for now a one-year

4:02

caretaker role as Iran's supreme

4:04

leader. On that

4:06

fateful day in 1989, Western

4:09

media reported how the once

4:11

hardline mullah seemed to have

4:14

become less radical, wanting to revive

4:16

Iran's ties with the West, wanting

4:19

to rebuild after the

4:21

painful eight-year-long war with Iraq which

4:23

ended the year before he was

4:25

pushed to the pinnacle of power.

4:28

That conflagration still casts a long

4:30

dark shadow in Iran and it's

4:32

said to still weigh on the

4:35

mind of the now ayatollah Khamenei.

4:38

He's still in power, said to be in

4:40

poor health, now seething with

4:42

venom against the West, most

4:44

of all the United States, and

4:46

lashing out against Israel, a state

4:49

he derides as the

4:51

usurper Zionist regime. His

4:53

supporters revere him. Among

4:56

his opponents, he's rebiled, including

4:58

a young generation bristling

5:00

against the strict limits on

5:02

their personal and political freedoms.

5:06

In 2009, the ayatollah's image

5:08

of a leader above the

5:10

political fray was shattered when

5:12

he took sides in disputed

5:14

presidential elections. We

5:16

saw firsthand how a sacred taboo

5:18

was broken. And

5:20

young protesters filled streets in

5:23

Tehran, shouting, death to the

5:25

dictator, even death to Khamenei.

5:28

Nearly two years ago, that red line

5:30

was crossed again. When

5:32

young schoolgirls smashed his photograph

5:34

framed in glass, his unprecedented

5:37

protests swept Iran, sparked

5:39

by the death in custody

5:42

of 22-year-old Massa Amini. That

5:44

unrest shook the Islamic order but

5:47

didn't break it. Red liners

5:49

buttressed their grip on power. So

5:52

too did the Islamic Revolutionary

5:54

Guard Corps, the IRGC, established

5:57

in 1979 to protect revolution

6:01

Ayatollah Khamenei is

6:03

their commander-in-chief. Over

6:05

the decades, the Corps' external wing,

6:07

the Quds Force, helped build a

6:09

network of armed allies across the

6:12

region, from Lebanon's Hezbollah

6:14

to militias in Iraq and Syria,

6:17

the Houthis of Yemen, and

6:19

in recent years Hamas in

6:21

the Gaza Strip. When the Israel-Gaza

6:23

war erupted six months ago, triggered

6:26

by Hamas's murderous rampage

6:28

in southern Israel, this

6:30

network was emboldened, empowered,

6:33

a so-called axis of resistance,

6:35

striking Israeli and American targets.

6:39

And Israel hit back, not just

6:41

targeting Iranian assets in the region,

6:43

but assassinating Iranian and

6:45

Hezbollah commanders. Iran held

6:48

back. April

6:50

1st changed that calculus. With

6:53

the attack on its diplomatic

6:55

compound in Damascus, Israel must

6:57

and should be punished, declared

6:59

the Ayatollah immediately. But

7:02

Iran watchers observed, avoiding

7:04

all-out war has been his legacy. It

7:06

was a choice of all choices, how

7:09

to placate the anger of his

7:11

radical revolutionary guards, how

7:13

to preserve Iran's perceived

7:15

prestige, how to do it in

7:17

such a way that Israel did not

7:19

strike back hard. On

7:22

April 14th, Iran made its move.

7:24

What it saw is a calibrated

7:26

strike it telegraphed 72 hours

7:29

before. By the time it was over, almost

7:32

all of the hundreds of drones,

7:34

crews, and ballistic missiles were

7:37

intercepted by Israel and its

7:39

allies. But Israel didn't

7:41

see it as a win. Its

7:44

first response came quickly but quietly

7:46

on Friday morning, a

7:48

handful of drone strikes which caused

7:50

little damage but sent a strong

7:53

signal. Israel didn't even say

7:55

officially this was its work,

7:58

an unintended gift. the

8:00

Ayatollah, who marked his 85th

8:02

birthday that day. He

8:04

could cast it as a slap so weak

8:06

it wasn't even clear who did it. He

8:09

could keep for now his calculus of

8:12

avoiding a catastrophic war in a

8:14

region where hostility still

8:16

seethes dangerously. Least

8:19

we're set. A missile attack

8:22

in the northern Ukrainian city of

8:24

Chenehiv earlier this week laid

8:26

bare the weakness of the country's air

8:28

defences. 18 people

8:31

were killed in the attack which

8:33

hit an eight-storey building in a

8:35

densely populated area. Depleted ammunition

8:38

supplies as well as a worsening

8:40

situation on the front line have

8:42

heightened fears that the tide

8:44

is continuing to turn against Ukraine

8:46

in its war with Russia. But

8:49

Ukrainian leaders have warned Western

8:51

governments that global security is

8:53

also at stake should Ukraine

8:55

be defeated. Sarah Rainsford

8:58

has been in Ukraine. Driving

9:01

towards the red and white chimneys of

9:03

Kharkiv power station number five I noticed

9:05

the women first with their brooms and

9:08

biscuits and paint brushes. Then

9:10

I saw the wreckage. The

9:13

power plant was hit by five Russian

9:15

missiles last month at the start of

9:17

a massive attack on Ukraine's energy system

9:19

that hasn't stopped. But

9:21

in front of the giant bomb site the

9:23

little group of women were sweeping the path

9:25

and painting the curbs. One

9:28

was even pulling up dandelions. They

9:31

told me they still like to keep

9:33

things neat and tidy. They thought it's

9:35

important to keep up morale. There

9:38

is now barely a power plant in Ukraine

9:40

that hasn't been badly damaged

9:42

or completely destroyed including

9:44

all three that supplied Kharkiv. Inside

9:47

what's left of plant number five an

9:49

engineer led me carefully to the edge

9:51

of a crater where one of

9:54

the missiles had smashed through the roof

9:56

mangling and burning everything in its path.

9:59

The repair teams had only And he'd just got

10:01

a section of the plant running after

10:03

a previous missile strike, when the Russians

10:05

hit it again, even harder. One

10:08

of the workers told me they could

10:10

fix it, perform miracles, as he put

10:12

it. But what's the point, he wondered,

10:15

if it's not protected? Ukraine's

10:18

air defences are being overwhelmed by the

10:20

sheer intensity of the Russian attacks. There

10:23

aren't enough units to protect everything, and

10:25

the military has to decide on its

10:27

priorities. A few days ago,

10:30

President Zelensky spelled out the problem.

10:33

Earlier this month, he said, Russia hurled

10:35

11 missiles at a power

10:37

station outside Kiev. Ukraine

10:39

shot down seven of them, and

10:42

then it ran out of missiles. The

10:44

plant was wiped out. Months

10:47

of pleading with Ukraine's allies to

10:49

help protect its skies have gone

10:52

largely unanswered, and recently the

10:54

frustration Ukrainians feel at that turned

10:56

to bewilderment and even anger. Because

10:59

when Iran attacked Israel last weekend,

11:02

the US and UK intervened directly

11:04

to help shoot down the missiles

11:06

and drones. Vladimir Zelensky

11:09

made speeches then highlighting the

11:11

common threat and the starkly

11:13

different response by Ukraine's allies.

11:16

His calls for more air defences,

11:18

more protection grew louder. If

11:21

you spend any time in Ukraine, you can see

11:23

where he's coming from. Whenever

11:25

the air raid sirens wail, people across

11:27

the country start scrolling through their

11:29

phones. There are apps that track the

11:32

drones and missiles as they come in. Ballistic

11:34

missile threat for Kiev, drones

11:36

over Harkis, cruise missile

11:39

threat to southern Ukraine. Based

11:42

on those details, you decide whether to

11:44

head to a shelter or perhaps crouch

11:46

in the bathroom, banking on the

11:48

protection of an extra wall. Sometimes

11:51

you just sleep on because living with

11:53

the missile threat can be

11:55

exhausting. The other

11:57

weekend Kiev, a cruise missile hit an arts college.

12:00

seconds after the phones went off, and

12:03

in Kharkiv, close to the Russian border, there

12:05

can be little or no time to react.

12:08

This week there was another reminder

12:10

of the terrible results. Eighteen

12:13

people were killed when Russian missiles

12:15

hit the centre of Chidnichyv. Seeing

12:18

the news slashes on my phone, my mind

12:20

raced back to my own visit there in

12:22

March. On the main boulevard

12:24

then, I'd met Sasha and her toddler Sonia,

12:27

who was giggling as she threw chestnuts for

12:29

their dog to chase. Sasha

12:31

explained that they had fled Chidnichyv for the

12:33

start of the war when it was under

12:36

siege and deadly dangerous, but

12:38

when the invading Russian forces were pushed

12:40

back, the young family came home. Sasha

12:43

worried all the way back that she'd made

12:45

the wrong decision. Then

12:48

you realise the missiles can strike anywhere, even

12:50

western Ukraine, she told me. She

12:53

was constantly nervous. I

12:56

keep wondering whether I'm a normal parent

12:58

to bring my child into this. Maybe

13:01

the chances of getting killed are quite

13:03

low, she reasoned, but there is

13:05

still a chance. And

13:07

now Chidnichyv has been hit, just

13:10

down the road from where I'd seen little

13:12

Sonia and her dog. When

13:14

I left Ukraine this week, I took

13:16

the train west to Warsaw. The

13:19

slow journey gives you time to release the

13:21

tension that you don't realise you feel until

13:23

it goes. As we

13:25

chugged through the Polish countryside, my phone

13:28

suddenly vibrated urgently on the table in front

13:30

of me. Then came

13:32

the siren. A girl opposite

13:34

jumped and I stumbled to switch it off.

13:37

Within seconds the same sound was howling from

13:39

phones all around me. The

13:41

carriage was full of Ukrainians. I

13:44

checked the app, air-raiding Kiev,

13:47

missile heading for the city. That's

13:50

life now, across Ukraine. Not

13:53

normal at all. Sarah

13:55

Rainsford. South Africa

13:57

is preparing to go to the polls in

13:59

May. where, for the first time

14:01

since the end of white minority rule, the

14:04

governing ANC party is predicted to get less

14:06

than 50% of the vote. Support

14:10

for President Cyril Raboposa and his

14:12

party has waned, as

14:15

high unemployment, crime, corruption and

14:17

persistent power cuts have left

14:20

South African voters disillusioned. crime

14:23

is also high on the list

14:26

of many voters' concerns and

14:28

could prove pivotal as they cast

14:30

their ballot. Jenny Hill

14:32

reports from the border with Zimbabwe.

14:36

It was the scar on her arm that

14:38

really shocked me. The men

14:40

who attacked Portia had used glass

14:42

bottles, she told me, gently

14:44

touching its jagged lumpy contours.

14:47

They'd raped her too, she said wearily. They

14:50

hadn't seemed to care that she was visibly

14:52

pregnant. I met Portia

14:54

as she recovered, her pregnancy now almost

14:56

full term, in the town of Musina

14:59

near South Africa's border with Zimbabwe. Above

15:02

us, a huge baobab tree spread

15:04

a soothing shade. Musina

15:06

is famous for these strange

15:08

and stately giants. The

15:11

town is also well known as a

15:13

place of refuge for migrants who, like

15:15

Portia, slip unnoticed across the border.

15:19

Portia is a place where people are driven here

15:21

from neighbouring countries by poverty and desperation, but

15:23

it's a notoriously dangerous journey.

15:26

The bush around Musina is

15:28

lawless territory, frequented by traffickers,

15:31

smugglers and thieves. Portia

15:33

gazed up at the leaves of the

15:35

baobab and told me she still can't

15:38

sleep, that she still suffers flashbacks. She

15:40

was targeted by what people here refer to,

15:43

fearfully, as the magoma goma,

15:46

criminals armed with guns who prey

15:48

on migrants. I'd heard

15:50

other stories too, robberies, beatings,

15:53

even killings. The

15:55

bush is very, very dangerous, as Zimbabwean

15:57

man called George told me. me, his

16:00

eyes wide at the memory of his

16:02

own journey. George said he'd

16:04

walked past bodies, human skeletons.

16:07

The Magoma Goma, he said, shaking

16:09

his head, will steal everything and

16:12

rape your wife. But the

16:14

migrants still come. It's a chance

16:16

at least, George told me, to get some

16:18

casual work, earn a little cash to send

16:20

back to his family at home. I thought

16:23

of those Beobabs. People

16:25

here call them upside-down trees

16:28

because their branches resemble roots.

16:31

Legend has it that God was angry with

16:33

the Beobab and threw it out of his

16:35

garden. Having landed upside-down in

16:37

the wilderness, the Beobab went

16:39

on to flourish. Upped, perhaps,

16:42

that it should grow so abundantly around

16:44

a border town where everyone has

16:46

a story of survival. We'd

16:49

come to Musina to see South

16:51

Africa's porous border for ourselves. There's

16:54

rising anger in this country about

16:56

illegal immigration and growing concern about

16:58

its vast land border, which is

17:00

nearly 5,000 kilometres long and shared

17:03

with six countries. A short

17:06

drive from the town, we bumped along a

17:08

rough track towards the bank of

17:10

the Limpopo River, which separates South

17:12

Africa from Zimbabwe. The Limpopo was

17:14

all but dried up, and as we

17:16

watched under a sweltering sun, a

17:19

woman, packages balanced high on her

17:21

head, hurried past. This was

17:23

supposed to be the border. We

17:25

weren't far from an official crossing point, but

17:28

here there were no guards, no barriers,

17:31

no checks, nothing to

17:33

stop people simply walking into

17:35

the country. The South African

17:37

authorities acknowledge they have a problem.

17:40

The governing party, the African National

17:42

Congress, or ANC, claims

17:44

it's securing the border. There's a

17:46

newly formed border force. It's sending

17:49

more officers to the area, but

17:51

senior managers openly admit it'll take

17:53

years to bring it under full control. And

17:56

the ANC may not have the luxury

17:58

of time. uninterrupted

18:00

years in power, it presides over

18:03

a chaotic country. Power cuts are

18:05

common, the water supply is failing,

18:07

and unemployment and violent crime are

18:10

at record levels. As

18:12

South Africa lurches towards the general election at

18:14

the end of May, many

18:16

blame foreigners for the country's woes.

18:19

The tone is increasingly xenophobic.

18:21

No one knows how many undocumented migrants

18:23

are coming into the country, how many

18:26

are here, and how many intend to

18:28

stay. But in Mussina, a

18:30

spokeswoman for one opposition party,

18:32

Action SA, warned that

18:34

their presence was overwhelming the area's

18:36

health and social systems. As

18:39

we drove home, away from the border, I

18:42

looked at the baobabs, tall against the

18:44

darkening sky. South Africa itself

18:46

feels like a bit of a wilderness

18:48

right now. Most of the South

18:50

Africans I speak to feel that while

18:52

this election will likely bruise the governing

18:55

party, it won't bring about

18:57

the kind of change many feel is needed

18:59

to transform the country's fortunes. And

19:02

I thought of Portia, George, the

19:04

other migrants I'd met in Mussina. For

19:06

them, South Africa represented a

19:08

salvation of sorts, but

19:11

in reality, for them, it's a

19:13

hostile country. Those baobab

19:15

trees live extraordinarily long

19:17

lives, sometimes thousands of

19:19

years, and they're

19:21

famed for their ability to

19:23

regenerate and thrive, symbolising perhaps

19:25

a hope this country needs.

19:29

Jenny Hill. Next

19:31

week, Portugal marks the 50th

19:33

anniversary of its transition to

19:35

democracy. While politics in

19:37

today's Portugal are defined by free

19:40

and fair elections, for decades it

19:42

was a very different place, an

19:45

isolationist, ultra- traditionalist

19:47

Catholic nation, strictly

19:49

controlled by dictator

19:51

Antonio Salazar. He

19:53

was finally overthrown in 1974 when

19:56

officers in the Portuguese army led a

19:58

coup against his regime. regime, Simon

20:01

Bush met some of the men

20:03

who joined the resistance against Salazar

20:05

to find out what they think

20:07

about politics in Portugal today. We

20:10

always choose a corner table, says Sal

20:12

Fernando Snunes, as we take a seat

20:15

at a restaurant in one of the

20:17

few quarters of Lisbon, seemingly not yet

20:19

colonised by digital nomads in Air BnBs.

20:22

Because of the spies, it makes it harder

20:24

for them to listen. Jocular

20:26

and bristle-mustached, at

20:28

90, Saul could be an advertisement for Youthful

20:30

Rebellion being good for your health. Saul's

20:33

choice of table location harks back

20:35

to his days of youthful militancy

20:37

against the right-wing nationalist regime of

20:40

Antonio Salazar. It was

20:42

Europe's longest dictatorship, which

20:44

alongside mass censorship, torture and

20:46

imprisonment of opponents, also

20:49

used a thousand-strong network of informants.

20:51

Joining us at the restaurant was

20:54

one of Saul's comrades from his

20:56

insurrectionary days, José Luis Faronia, gearing

20:58

up for the celebration a few days

21:00

since of the 50th anniversary of the

21:02

downfall of the Salazar regime. People

21:05

called it the Carnation Revolution, for the

21:07

flowers they stuck in soldiers' rifles. Given

21:10

the half-century milestone, the annual celebratory

21:13

marches with their shouts of, Fascist

21:15

mon un camáis, fascism

21:17

never again, promised to be especially

21:19

triumphant this year. Despite its longevity,

21:22

the 48-year dictatorship led for most

21:24

of its duration by Salazar, a

21:26

squeaky-voiced economist, never quite managed to

21:29

seal the lid on a largely

21:31

leftist insurgent soup simmering beneath it.

21:34

Resting on pillars of nationalism,

21:36

Catholicism and corporatism, Salazar's rule

21:38

seems to have been motivated

21:40

in part by nostalgia for

21:42

an imagined Portuguese rural ittle

21:45

and a hatred of modernity. Under

21:47

his one-party administration, Coca-Cola was banned.

21:49

Women required their husbands' permission to

21:51

open a bank account, and you

21:54

even needed a license for one

21:56

of those subversively newfangled things, a

21:58

cigarette lighter. Meanwhile, Salazar's

22:00

political police, the Pide, were kept

22:03

busy by the clandestine opposition groups

22:05

proliferating towards the end of Salazar's

22:07

rule. So busy that, as one

22:09

accounted the era relates, the Brazilian

22:12

ambassador's wife complained of the cries

22:14

of torture victims coming from the

22:16

Pide headquarters opposite, only to be

22:18

told that, no, they were the

22:21

screaming tram wheels. Back

22:23

at the restaurant, Saul unfolds before me a

22:25

family tree of the twenty or more underground

22:27

groupings spawned in Portugal from the 1960s on.

22:31

Saul and Jose Luis belonged to one

22:33

of them, called the Popular Action Front,

22:35

and were picked up by the Pide

22:37

for such heinous crimes as leafletting and

22:39

graffiti. Prison, they tell me,

22:42

was like a concentrated miniature of

22:44

Salazarian society. News was

22:46

scant, communication largely forbidden, and

22:48

the regime specialized in a

22:50

kind of bruiseless, ill treatment,

22:52

sleep deprivation. When

22:54

the prisoners went on hunger strike to demand

22:56

better conditions, they were force-fed. I never

22:59

eat between meals, Sal had quipped to

23:01

the guards, sealing his lips, no matter.

23:04

They forced a hose attached to a funnel down one

23:06

of his nostrils. Yet, compared

23:08

with its authoritarian counterparts in

23:10

Chile, Brazil, or Argentina, Salazar's

23:12

repression, Sal Muses, was rather

23:15

smooth. Fear, as

23:17

he puts it, was efficiently generalized.

23:20

The dictatorship was also singularly pragmatic,

23:22

cozying up to and then dropping

23:24

its fascist allies like Mussolini. This

23:27

pragmatism is what helped the regime

23:29

to last so long, says another

23:31

ex-subversive, Fernando Pereira Marques. Banged

23:33

up by the regime in 1968 after

23:36

an attempted town occupation, Professor Marques

23:38

later became an academic and socialist

23:40

party MP. A von

23:42

Kjelenau in his 70s, this militant turned

23:44

teacher, has a theory too about the

23:46

recent rebirth of the far right in

23:48

Portugal. A new party called Chega did

23:50

well in national elections last month when

23:53

it became the third largest force in

23:55

Portuguese politics. Its success is

23:57

born of a kind of mistrust of

23:59

the political centre. in Lisbon, Professor Marques

24:01

says, and of politicians in general. Perhaps

24:04

Professor Marques, along with Saul,

24:06

Jose Luiz and others soon

24:08

to celebrate the 50th anniversary

24:10

defeat of Europe's longest-running dictatorship,

24:13

will feel the need to shout, ìVashis mon

24:15

unkamais!î a little louder this time. Simon

24:19

Bush. And finally,

24:21

exotic birds have adapted to live

24:23

alongside humans in some of the

24:25

world's major cities. In

24:27

Hong Kong, itís yellow-crested cockatoos

24:29

that you might see swooping

24:32

through the skyline. Originating

24:35

from the jungles of Southeast

24:37

Asia, Hong Kongís cockatoos have

24:39

not always been welcomed, and

24:41

were once considered a pest. Today,

24:44

there are protected species. Stephen

24:47

Moss tells the story of why theyíre

24:49

now thriving in Hong Kong. A

24:52

busy city park surrounded by a

24:54

sea of steel, glass and concrete

24:57

is not where Iíd expect to find

24:59

one of the worldís rarest and most

25:01

endangered birds. But this location,

25:04

in the heart of Hong Kongís

25:06

central business district, is no ordinary

25:08

urban oasis. Itís

25:10

home to 200 or so

25:13

yellow-crested cockatoos. That doesnít sound

25:15

a lot, but itís roughly 10% of the entire

25:18

world population. And

25:20

early on a Sunday morning, as I

25:22

dodge hordes of joggers and weave my

25:24

way around the Tai Chi enthusiasts, Iím

25:26

hoping to see them. At

25:29

first all I can hear is

25:31

the chirping of tree sparrows and

25:33

the more tuneful calls of Hong

25:35

Kongís most ubiquitous bird, the red-whiskered

25:37

bauble. But then I

25:40

notice a distant screech, which has been

25:42

described as sounding like a cross between

25:44

a car alarm and a braying donkey.

25:47

And there, right above my head, I

25:50

see a score of these large white

25:52

birds heading towards a fruiting tree to

25:54

feed. As they land, I

25:57

catch a glimpse of the bright, sulphur-yellow

25:59

quid. that gives the species its

26:01

name. Yellow-crested cockatoos

26:04

are not native to Hong Kong. Their

26:06

original home is in the dense

26:09

rainforests of eastern Indonesia and neighbouring

26:11

Timor-Leste. There, they could

26:13

once be found in vast numbers. But

26:16

during the 1980s, nearly 100,000 of these handsome

26:20

birds were legally exported to be

26:22

sold as pets in the caged

26:24

bird trade, with countless more trapped

26:27

illegally. Today, fewer than

26:29

2,000 mature individuals remain in

26:31

the wild. That's

26:34

why the Global Conservation Organisation,

26:36

BirdLife International, has

26:38

classified the yellow-crested cockatoo

26:40

as critically endangered, just

26:43

one level above extinct in the

26:45

wild. So, what

26:47

are these exotic birds doing here, in

26:49

one of the world's busiest urban jungles? The

26:52

story takes us all the way

26:54

back to December 1941, when, following

26:57

the bombing of Pearl Harbour, Hong

26:59

Kong was about to fall to

27:01

the invading Japanese army. Faced

27:04

with inevitable defeat, the

27:06

British colonial governor decided to release

27:08

his entire bird collection, to save

27:11

them falling into enemy hands. It's

27:14

a convincing story, and while I heard

27:16

several times during my visit here, unfortunately

27:19

it also appears to be an

27:21

urban myth, with absolutely

27:23

no basis in the historical record.

27:26

These noisy flocks weren't actually seen here

27:28

until the late 1950s, long

27:31

after the end of the Second World War. But

27:35

however the cockatoos arrived, the

27:37

fact remains that, with their

27:39

Indonesian population plummeting towards oblivion,

27:41

Hong Kong, where numbers have quadrupled

27:43

since the 1970s, is a Noah's

27:45

Ark for this species. Dr

27:48

Astrid Anderson, a Swedish scientist based in

27:51

Hong Kong, who has studied them closely

27:53

in the urban parks, agrees.

27:56

These birds have found a safe haven here,

27:58

she tells me. It just shows

28:00

that humans and wildlife really can coexist

28:02

even in the middle of a city.

28:05

However, Dr Anderson, who has been dubbed

28:07

the Queen of the Cockatoos, believes that

28:10

they may still not be safe. Hong

28:13

Kong is a thoroughfare for the

28:15

legal wildlife trade, she explains, and

28:18

that provides a cover for the illegal

28:20

wildlife trade to operate in parallel. To

28:23

try to pinpoint their origin, Dr

28:26

Anderson has developed a test which,

28:28

by analysing the chemical composition of

28:30

the cockatoos' feathers, can reveal what

28:32

they've recently been eating. This

28:35

then enables her to discover if

28:37

an individual bird has been legally

28:39

bred in captivity, or was taken

28:41

illegally from the wild. As

28:44

with many endangered members of the Parrot

28:46

tribe, there's a paradox at the heart

28:48

of the yellow-crested cockatoos' plight. They

28:51

were initially driven to the edge of

28:53

extinction to meet the insatiable

28:55

demands of the caged bird trade. Yet,

28:58

ironically, the ultimate salvation of

29:00

the species lies in these

29:02

birds, whose ancestors were brought

29:04

here in cages, but

29:07

now fly free above my head

29:09

in this busy city park. Stephen

29:12

Moss. And that's all

29:14

for today. We'll be back again next

29:16

Saturday morning. Do join us. I'm

29:21

Kavita Puri, and in three million

29:23

from BBC Radio 4, I

29:26

hear extraordinary eyewitness accounts that tell

29:28

the story for the first time

29:30

of the Bengal famine which

29:32

happened in British India in the middle of

29:34

the Second World War. At

29:37

least three million people died. It's

29:40

one of the largest losses of civilian life

29:42

from the Allied side, and there isn't a

29:44

museum, a memorial, or

29:46

even a plaque to those who died. How

29:49

can the memory of three million people

29:51

just disappear? Eighty

29:56

years on, I tracked down

29:58

first-hand accounts. and make

30:01

new discoveries and hear

30:03

remarkable stories and explore why

30:05

remembrance is so complicated in

30:07

Britain, India and Bangladesh. Listen

30:10

to 3 million on BBC

30:12

Sounds. Tired

30:19

of ads intruding into your favourite

30:21

comedy podcasts? Good news! Ad-free

30:24

listening is available on Amazon Music

30:26

for all the music plus top

30:28

podcasts included with your Prime membership.

30:30

Dive into a world of laughs

30:32

by downloading the Amazon Music app

30:34

for free or go to amazon.com/Comedy

30:37

Ad-free. That's amazon.com/Comedy Ad-free to catch

30:39

up on the latest episodes without

30:41

the ads.

Rate

Join Podchaser to...

  • Rate podcasts and episodes
  • Follow podcasts and creators
  • Create podcast and episode lists
  • & much more

Episode Tags

Do you host or manage this podcast?
Claim and edit this page to your liking.
,

Unlock more with Podchaser Pro

  • Audience Insights
  • Contact Information
  • Demographics
  • Charts
  • Sponsor History
  • and More!
Pro Features