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0:21

This. Is fresh air. I'm Tiny. Mosley,

0:23

On the popular A B C

0:25

sitcom, Abbott Elementary, actor Tyler James

0:27

Williams portrays a stoic, no nonsense

0:30

first grade teacher who has a

0:32

crush on a fellow teacher played

0:34

by Quinta Branson, the creator and

0:36

star of the series. The show

0:38

follows their characters and a team

0:40

of quirky teachers as they through

0:42

trial and error, try to give

0:44

these kids a quality education at

0:46

Abbott Elementary. Playing. A

0:48

Teacher is Tyler's latest role and a

0:51

long career that spans more than twenty

0:53

five years. He began as a child

0:55

actor, most notably as a young Chris

0:57

Rock and the Tv show Everybody Hates

1:00

Chris. He's also starred and other movies

1:02

and shows including Dear White People, The

1:04

United States vs. Billie Holiday, and Season

1:07

five of the Am See Horror drama

1:09

The Walking Dead. Last year Williams won

1:11

a Golden Globe for his portrayal of

1:14

Gregory on Abbott Elementary, which Is Now

1:16

and it's third season. And

1:18

Tyler James Williams Welcome to Fresh Air.

1:20

Thank you for having me okay. I'm

1:23

so excited for this conversation. I

1:25

wanna ask you about this character.

1:27

First off because when you won

1:29

the Golden Globe Award last year

1:31

which congratulations by the way you

1:33

said something like this when his

1:35

for all the Gregory Eddie's of

1:37

the world to understand that his

1:39

story is just as important as

1:41

all of the other stories. What?

1:44

Do you love most about this character? I

1:47

love the simplicity. Of

1:50

Gregory I love the his

1:52

story is rooted in some

1:54

sense of trauma or I'm.

1:58

Some. massive conflict that is

2:00

very specific to his race. That's

2:02

really what I meant when I said that, was that

2:04

he's a guy with a job

2:07

who's just trying to do a good

2:09

job who happens to be

2:11

black at a black school with black

2:13

kids. I

2:16

know that I've longed for stories that were

2:18

rooted in an everyday

2:20

conflict. I think

2:22

for a long time, I was reading a lot of

2:24

things that had to

2:27

be so grandiose in

2:29

the things that they tackled. I

2:32

read that Quinta Brunson

2:34

DMed you. You all lived down the street from

2:36

each other and told you about this character.

2:41

When she first told you about it, did

2:43

it end up, was it the person that it now

2:45

is? How much of it did you bring to

2:47

the table once you were able to see the

2:49

bones of this person? I

2:52

think from the minute we got on

2:54

the phone about it, Gregory became a

2:56

collaborative effort. It's as if she

2:58

had laid down a stencil

3:02

of what Gregory could be. And then we started

3:04

painting in the

3:06

colors of him. We

3:09

very quickly had a conversation about the

3:11

importance of showing

3:13

an active black male struggling

3:17

with and attempting to do a really

3:19

good job in raising the next generation.

3:22

Because those are the men I grew up with, and those are the men

3:24

that she grew up with. It's

3:26

really interesting though, you say, but

3:28

you had never had a black male teacher like Gregory.

3:30

That was the first time you had ever thought

3:32

about it. That was the first time it had

3:34

even crossed my mind. I

3:36

think she read off some statistic about, I

3:39

think it's less than 2% of teachers are

3:42

black and male in the US. And

3:44

that's where, I always look for the purpose of a

3:47

thing. Where's the purpose I can hook into?

3:49

And that was one of them. But

3:52

then there

3:54

was something about a quieter

3:57

introverted take on the

3:59

world. him that I really

4:01

loved. I

4:04

can't remember how we got there, but

4:06

that slowly began to evolve into who he

4:08

was. I think the beginning was just he

4:10

was very anti-wanting to be at Abbott because

4:12

he was looking for a bigger position. Right,

4:14

because he started off there as a substitute

4:16

teacher. Exactly. We learned later on that

4:18

he had actually applied for the job of principal and

4:21

didn't get it. Exactly. So

4:23

yes, it starts off where you feel like, oh yeah, he just

4:25

feels a little some kind of way about being in the

4:27

school. Right. But we learn, especially

4:29

this season, the depths of

4:31

who he is. Exactly. And that's what

4:33

I wanted to slowly unravel. I

4:36

wanted to show a version

4:38

of not just a

4:41

black man showing up in

4:43

his workspace differently, but showing

4:45

up authentically himself, not necessarily

4:47

being, I

4:50

guess, flamboyantly entertaining in

4:53

his space, quiet in his space. I

4:56

want us to play a clip of him. So

4:59

in the series, you, Quinta Brunson, Cheryl

5:01

Lee Ralph, Lisa Ann Walter, and Chris

5:03

Perfetti all play dedicated teachers trying to

5:06

make the most out of their limited

5:08

resources. And the place where

5:10

we really get to see you guys and your

5:12

personality is the teacher's lounge. It does feel like

5:14

we're going inside, right? So in

5:17

this scene that I'm about to play from

5:19

season one, all of the teachers are in

5:21

the lounge. Also, William Stanford Davis, who plays

5:23

the janitor for the school, is there. And

5:27

fellow teacher Jacob offers you a slice of

5:29

pizza. Cheryl Lee

5:31

Ralph, as Mrs. Howard, speaks first.

5:34

This Paulie's pizza is delicious, isn't it? It's

5:36

decent, but it's not as good as donut's.

5:38

Sorry. Was anybody else not enjoying the mouth

5:41

feel of Frederico's? Mm-mm. Greg? Oh,

5:44

I mean, it's all going to be trash to me.

5:46

I'm a Baltimore pizza guy, like I said. Mm-mm. You

5:49

know what? I thought that might happen. And so, as

5:51

your best friend here at Abbott, I

5:54

took it upon myself to drive two hours to

5:56

Baltimore to get you your favorite pizza from St.

5:58

Cheese. That's crazy.

6:00

I even asked the pizza yolo to make

6:02

it extra crunchy and wet. Bon

6:07

appetit. Mmm. Alright

6:11

man, you, I can't do this. I just

6:13

don't like pizza. What? Say

6:16

that again, I don't think I heard you, son.

6:18

Sweetheart, what do you mean you don't like pizza?

6:20

I just don't understand the concept of having a

6:22

bunch of ingredients just sloshed around in your mouth.

6:24

It's not just pizza. I've got like four or

6:27

five things that I actually like and I just

6:29

stick to those. Do

6:32

you like pie? Fruit should

6:35

not be hot. Okay,

6:37

what about a rack of ribs, dry

6:39

rub, no sauce? Yeah, it's not for

6:41

me, but I do like bacon. He's

6:43

lying. He doesn't like bacon. So how

6:45

could you not like pizza, Gregory? How

6:47

could you not like it's pizza? See,

6:49

this is why they're never telling anybody, okay? Because everyone always freaks

6:51

out and acts like it's a personal attack. It's not my fault.

6:54

I was born this way. Don't you bring Lady

6:56

Gaga into this. That's

7:01

Tyler James Williams as first grade teacher

7:03

Gregory Eddie in the sitcom Abbott Elementary.

7:05

What was your school experience like? Because

7:07

you were a child actor. I mean, since

7:09

you were four, right? Yeah,

7:12

so what was school like for you? So I went to a traditional

7:14

brick and mortar school up until about sixth

7:16

grade. Around

7:20

that time, I was beginning to work a bit more

7:22

and I was getting a little bit more. Around

7:25

that time, I was beginning to work

7:28

a bit more and when you're in

7:31

a traditional school, you only get over

7:33

so many absences. And when you're actively

7:35

working, at some point, that becomes an issue. They knew

7:37

I was an actor. They knew I would have to

7:40

leave for auditions and all of that. But as work

7:42

was beginning to ramp up, they were like, hey, we

7:45

have this answer for this at

7:47

the school district. So my mother at

7:49

that point moved me into this

7:51

kind of homeschooling program where I could have

7:53

tutors on set that could pretty much pick

7:55

up on the program and teach me what I needed

7:57

to know. could

8:00

be a bit more seamless. Yeah.

8:02

Do you remember that time frame when it was

8:04

like, oh yeah, I'm working more than I'm

8:07

in school or I'm out of school

8:09

a lot? Oh yeah, I remember it.

8:12

I was never one who really

8:14

liked school. I liked learning. I

8:17

didn't like the environment

8:19

of learning with other people. Really? That

8:22

was my issue. Like what, specifically? I

8:25

didn't like getting up in the morning and going to sit in

8:27

a room full of like 15 to 20

8:29

other kids who like I wasn't crazy about. Did

8:33

you have close friends in school? Not really.

8:35

No, not, there was like nobody from that

8:38

age, like I guess what

8:40

would be zero to sixth grade that

8:42

I really felt connected to because I

8:44

was really passionate about my job. That

8:47

was the thing that I really loved. Most of

8:49

my friends were in that space. We were all

8:52

deep feeling, creative. We

8:55

looked closely into things that other

8:57

kids just wouldn't really care about.

8:59

So were your other friends actors?

9:01

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

9:04

Yeah. So that was the thing. There's

9:06

a bunch of them now who like, we all grew

9:08

up together and are now very successful. Like Leon Thomas

9:10

III, we grew up together in New York and I

9:12

was reading for stuff against Michael B. Jordan at the

9:15

time when he was on the East Coast. It's

9:18

great to see everybody around now, but that's where

9:20

I felt more at home. When

9:24

you're on set at

9:26

Abb Elementary, there's a whole cast of kids

9:28

that have also been over the last few

9:30

seasons. They're just in the classroom growing up,

9:32

right? Do you see

9:34

yourself in them at all? Because they

9:37

also, their child actors too, do you ever

9:39

relate to them in that way? There's

9:42

stuff that like I

9:44

can see them processing. I

9:47

remember that look on my face where

9:50

they'll be asking about, One

9:52

asked me the other day, what does swinging

9:55

a lens mean? And In TV, swinging a

9:57

lens means you're going tighter with the camera

9:59

lens. You add is wide shot You're going

10:01

into this kind of title shot and they hear

10:04

that every day and like what does that mean

10:06

and it's a tad explain that to them for

10:08

the you also see those who. It's.

10:11

Setting. A spark off. And.

10:13

I could tell it there are some who are going to. Try.

10:16

To pursue this for I guess a good

10:18

amount of their lives so I just want

10:20

to make sure that they feel as comfortable.

10:24

Welcomed. I'm. And

10:27

leave with as much information as possible on on

10:29

This becomes a world that they could go into

10:31

and that they're having fun if the not having

10:33

fun. Isn't. Is

10:35

no reason for us to be doing

10:37

this as adults were having fun. We

10:39

should be and that's would ya hopefully

10:41

attracts them to it. Where their adult

10:43

actors that you were working with when

10:45

you were a kid who. On

10:48

kind of gave that to you to.

10:52

In a in a way right. I think

10:55

I grew up in a. Time.

10:57

Where. I think the

11:00

industry as a whole didn't

11:02

necessarily know what to do

11:04

with kids. It

11:06

is really weren't sure. it was like this

11:08

child was in this adult workspace. We

11:12

need them for this story, but we're not really

11:14

sure how to accommodate this room to them. So.

11:18

What I ended up having a lot more

11:20

was people were really good at helping me

11:22

get good at what I was doing to

11:24

Seen Arnold is really good at your mom's

11:26

yeah your mom on everybody hates Chris C

11:29

C was really good at. Making.

11:31

Sure, I got good at this comedy thing. Can.

11:34

Saw that does not want to be good, it

11:36

doesn't want to do this for the rest of

11:38

my life and Sieges as takes and scenes would

11:40

go by. would actively try to break mean and

11:43

things. So. That I could get like the

11:45

muscle strong enough or way how many things I

11:47

see do it whenever it was on my coverage,

11:49

right? She's behind the camera. What you ended up

11:51

seeing as a take is not what she was

11:54

doing behind that camera sister. She would amp it

11:56

up and she would turn that thing up a

11:58

bit and. Now

12:00

when I look back on it, it was really just a

12:02

beautiful training ground that she was laying out for me I

12:04

saw her recently and was able to tell her that I'm

12:06

just like, thank you for Getting

12:09

me ready to kind of hang with the best

12:11

in comedy because I truly believe she is one

12:13

of the best to do it Everybody

12:15

hates Chris ran for four seasons. How old you

12:18

were from what age range to 12 to 16?

12:21

Okay, 12 to 16 years old and

12:23

you were playing a young Chris Rock semi-autobac

12:26

biographical set in a

12:29

different time frame the 80s but a

12:33

lot of your acting is through

12:36

Physical through your face because

12:38

a lot of the show is narration so you

12:40

don't have many lines One

12:42

of the things you are known for is

12:44

your face acting even to this day

12:46

on Abbott Elementary It's like oh you

12:49

can give the side. I like no other I'm

12:51

just wondering how how much was that perfected

12:54

during everybody hates Chris because so much of

12:56

your face Is

12:58

a part of emoting what is

13:00

happening in the scene? I think it laid

13:02

the groundwork for sure I think the the crux

13:04

of that show a lot

13:06

of people don't fundamentally Understand

13:09

it. I've noticed over time the

13:12

show the show itself. It's not that

13:16

Chris was hated on specifically.

13:18

It's that he felt like

13:20

the world around him was

13:22

insane And

13:26

that that's that's how he internalized it

13:31

So for me that was one of

13:33

the only ways to really convey All

13:36

of the little things that were happening in that show

13:38

because I could feel them like there's a lot of

13:41

micro kind of aggressions that we

13:43

explore with like the teacher at one time

13:45

and in 27

13:49

pages as you do with a half-hour comedy There's just

13:51

not enough lines to respond you can't say what or

13:53

oh my god, but for so many times And

13:56

That's when I learned that I should have.

13:58

My character should have an opinion. That is

14:00

on his own lines when when everybody elses

14:02

and. And it's my job

14:04

as a performer to show what his

14:06

opinion is on those banks armed. So

14:09

it definitely laid the groundwork for how

14:11

I was gonna work for the rest

14:13

of my life. Yeah, It

14:15

also has some. Such.

14:18

Or. How would you

14:20

describe their time period for yourself?

14:22

It was a time of learning,

14:24

but. He also said he walked

14:26

away with some trauma. All that time

14:28

period. That's. One of the

14:31

things. That. Is very

14:33

unique to me about that show. Is

14:37

so many people. Have

14:40

such great, overwhelmingly warm feelings

14:42

about it from their childhood.

14:45

And. I'm like one of a few

14:48

people who don't write. It was

14:50

a very difficult time for me.

14:52

I'm. I'm one

14:54

of those people believe that same is

14:56

inherently traumatic. You.

14:59

Are. One thing one day. And.

15:02

The next day you something completely different. Odd.

15:04

One day I was just a kid New

15:06

York who was like walking down the streets

15:08

of Manhattan auditioning and know that the next

15:10

day I was on my face was on

15:12

every bus in the city. So

15:15

I think I really struggled with that.

15:18

Attention. I think attention that most people

15:20

seek. I wasn't necessarily doing this. for

15:22

that, I was doing this because I

15:24

love to do it. Even to this

15:26

day, I still find it very bizarre

15:28

when people hyper obsess on you. And

15:31

I think I was going through puberty

15:33

and was awkward and wasn't really sure

15:35

who I was, er, when wanted to

15:37

be yet. And I think that's an

15:39

awkward time for anybody. But.

15:43

It's really difficult when it's. Put

15:45

on the screen and then

15:47

immortalized. You enemy the lie. The

15:50

people I grew up with who are also

15:52

child actors may not have had a show

15:54

that was as big of a hit. Is

15:56

Everybody Hates Chris became. So. that

15:58

period of time for them wasn't necessarily immortalize

16:00

and there's a certain aspect of I

16:04

guess infantilizing that happens where people try to

16:06

keep you in that place at the same

16:08

time. There was also something, was

16:11

it a producer or someone said to you

16:14

when you guys were wrapping that show? Yeah.

16:17

That um... That probably never worked again. This

16:19

producer said to you, no

16:21

one will ever be able to probably see you

16:24

outside of this character as a young Chris Rock.

16:26

Yeah. So I'm doing a good job.

16:29

Why am I

16:31

being punished for doing a good job? It was very

16:33

difficult for me to grapple with. And

16:36

it kind of contextualized the whole, my 20s. Essentially.

16:42

What propelled you to keep going in

16:45

this industry? So you're 16 when it wraps.

16:48

Yeah. You

16:50

continue to act. Yeah. And

16:55

I mean, what I'm about to say, I mean this

16:57

not to be dramatic, but

17:00

very seriously. There

17:03

was no other option. Having

17:08

been able to live

17:11

very early parts of my life doing

17:13

what I loved on set consistently day

17:15

by day, I had tasted that.

17:18

There was no going back. It was either this

17:21

or bust. So I

17:24

was quite literally fighting for not just my

17:27

career, but my life over the course of

17:29

my 20s. That's

17:32

what drove me because I couldn't see

17:34

myself doing really anything

17:36

else. This was it. So

17:39

if it wasn't this, it wasn't going

17:41

to be anything. How

17:44

did you become a child actor? Because four

17:47

years old is really young. It is. This

17:50

is something I've never heard really resonate with anybody else.

17:52

And I guess this is unique to me. I

17:55

came out of the womb ready

17:57

to go. Rated

18:00

your mama tell you about you will be

18:02

metal I remember these moments are seizing but

18:04

that's the like use I see all these

18:06

like baby pictures of me and i look

18:08

very some a very serious child frank like

18:11

you've had the same as a lot on

18:13

my my as like i'm making a plan

18:15

for something farm and I remember sitting on

18:17

the floor and my parents living room. I

18:20

can say with a for fell I can tell you

18:22

that the couch was green and how the fabric felt.

18:24

I remember all of it clearly and I was watching

18:26

Men in Black and it was. The taste was at

18:28

the beginning. And something in me

18:30

clicked and like I want to do that. And

18:33

I brought it up to my parents and they had

18:35

been on the music side of the industry, right? and.

18:38

Anyone who's been on the music on the

18:40

industry will tell you the do not say

18:42

about that about nonsense more just. The.

18:44

Industry in general for their

18:46

children. So they initially. Didn't.

18:49

Really take me seriously because it was

18:51

for you know, the mean leg and

18:53

I give them a lot of credit

18:55

on that that eventually they did Eventually

18:58

epic. A mother just knows when the

19:00

child talks about something differently. My.

19:02

Mother started. Taking. Me to dislike

19:04

these or distance of the new so

19:07

the theater community there's really robust prices

19:09

you were raised and yell at youngest

19:11

so. It's not difficult to

19:13

fall into a very taz you will

19:15

version of the industry, right? You can

19:17

do like off Broadway plays, stuff that

19:20

just like allows you to have fun

19:22

like it would be going to Soccer,

19:24

Your marriage advocates. Off the saga doesn't

19:26

mean that they're going to play professionally

19:29

arm. And a whaddya

19:31

I was bit I was bit your mommy

19:33

the wrote a book about their hands on

19:35

how to how to have a rich and

19:37

famous Zionists which I think would people. See.

19:40

It initially they think it's a blueprint.

19:43

When. In actuality, It's

19:46

a cautionary tale to. All.

19:48

The things. That. I'd add the were

19:50

framed as as the unknown unknowns as the things

19:52

that you. Can't know that you don't

19:54

know and how to navigate those things that

19:56

we just found over time. because you

19:58

what i think every pair wants their kid to

20:01

be happy and do what they love. It just

20:03

so happens that with this, it can

20:06

come with a very difficult

20:08

terrain. Let's take

20:11

a short break. If you're just joining us, my

20:13

guest today is Tyler James Williams, one

20:15

of the stars of the sitcom Abbott

20:17

Elementary on ABC. We'll be right back

20:19

after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley,

20:21

and this is Fresh Air. This.

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22:13

I'm going to play

22:15

a clip. It's one of

22:17

your first gigs. Sesame

22:20

Street. Oh wow. And the

22:22

year is 2000. Let's listen.

22:27

In my family we celebrate

22:30

Kwanzaa. Every

22:36

night we light a candle

22:38

on the kamara. That's

22:40

a candle holder with

22:42

a candle for each of

22:45

the seven nights of Kwanzaa.

22:47

Are you ready tonight for

22:49

Kwanzaa? And

22:52

every night we talk about

22:54

one of the seven principles

22:57

of Kwanzaa. Their ideas for

23:00

how to live a good life.

23:04

That was our guest Tyler James

23:06

Williams with your brother and one

23:08

of your first major acting roles

23:10

celebrating Kwanzaa with your family on

23:13

Sesame Street. And in this

23:16

clip, I remember this clip.

23:18

That's what's so crazy about it. Yes but

23:20

in this clip you are all in African

23:23

garb. There's food in their games and

23:25

your brother is showing us how you all

23:27

celebrate and you're dancing right in the middle.

23:30

Do you remember this? 100%. What do

23:32

you remember about family? I remember

23:34

how I came about too. So

23:38

I had been on Sesame Street at that time for

23:41

about maybe six years. They came to

23:43

my mom saying they wanted to do

23:45

a Kwanzaa

23:48

special and haven't

23:50

been there for so long and had built such great relationships

23:52

over there. They were like we would love it if it

23:54

could be your family. So

23:56

in that clip is

23:59

my entire entire extended family. All of

24:01

those folks are your real family. My

24:03

grandfather, my cousins, my aunts. And

24:10

what's really beautiful to me about that is it's

24:14

immortalized. I

24:17

love that, we can't watch any of it, right?

24:19

My brothers and I, we have this big turn

24:21

off from watching anything that we were ever in,

24:23

literally ever. Oh, so all of you

24:25

are that way. We're all that way. Why? What is it

24:27

about seeing it? One,

24:29

it's bombarding,

24:31

right? It's difficult because

24:34

even in my YouTube algorithm or on social

24:36

media, I'll see a GIF or something of

24:38

me and I'm like, ah, you don't expect

24:40

to see yourself? Yes. And

24:43

I think it's not like

24:45

watching home movies. It's

24:48

watching you perform. It's

24:50

very uncanny. It's a weird feeling I

24:52

can't really describe. And then I'm also

24:54

seeing your family perform too in this

24:57

particular clip. And that's the thing, I

24:59

see, I hear my mom and

25:01

I hear her voice,

25:03

but I also hear her being aware that

25:05

she's on camera voice. Because everyone has that,

25:07

they code switch on the phone. I'm

25:12

just really happy that I

25:15

come from some really, really, really talented

25:17

black people who never

25:19

quite got their due. And

25:21

in this one clip, I

25:24

can at least show all of them in one room. And

25:27

that's what I really love about that. You

25:30

mentioned your parents were singers. They

25:33

had day jobs, like your dad was

25:35

an officer, a police officer and your

25:37

mom, a counselor. Yeah. Yeah,

25:40

but they were not just singers,

25:42

they were sangers. No, yeah, flat-footed

25:45

singers, acapella. Who

25:48

did they sing? They were background singers. They were

25:50

background singers, yeah. Luther

25:52

Vandross, Nona Hendrix.

25:55

I think it was Nona who had said,

26:00

My mom, my aunt, and my dad were in

26:02

a singing group together that didn't background. And

26:06

Nona, I believe it was the one who said to

26:09

my aunt, you're like a Porsche going to speed limit

26:12

back here. I come from people

26:14

who can sing. Our

26:17

family reunions were a cappella

26:20

groups dreams. But

26:23

the music industry is very hard. It's

26:26

very difficult. What were some

26:28

of the things that your mother and father

26:30

did that you like look

26:32

back and you say, I mean, those

26:34

were the things that kept us out of out of

26:36

it. The stuff she writes about, I guess, in the

26:38

book, too. They did

26:41

a really good job of

26:43

protecting us. One

26:45

of the things I think I needed as

26:47

an adult in the industry and

26:49

every adult industry needs is

26:51

to know the power of no and

26:54

get really comfortable with saying it. My

26:57

father almost antagonistically would

27:00

go out of his way to say no

27:02

as many times as he could to as

27:04

many people here as possible. He would look

27:06

them in the face. People

27:09

who were executives and

27:12

producers because he wanted

27:14

to let us know that at any point in time we

27:16

could walk away from this and he would be fine with

27:18

it. He wouldn't care. He would go

27:20

back to whatever life it was that we had. He

27:24

removed that fear of feeling

27:26

like you have to say yes to everything. Now

27:30

as an adult who

27:32

has to go through contract negotiations and multiple

27:34

offers coming in and out and pressure from

27:36

this side and that side, my

27:38

ability to say no is stronger than most of

27:41

my age. I think that

27:43

was the biggest thing that they did was they made it

27:45

very clear to us, we can walk. They

27:47

had already walked away from the industry themselves. That

27:49

was the practice that we needed that we

27:52

just weren't going to be able to have as kids. They

27:54

were good with walking. And

27:57

to this day I'm very

27:59

OK. Okay, we're walking away from anything. This

28:01

makes me think about what you said

28:04

at the start of our conversation when I was asking you

28:06

what made you really

28:08

love this character Gregory. Were

28:11

you given scripts for things that you

28:13

turned down because you're just like I

28:16

can't be this or this is a bad deal?

28:19

Everything after everybody hates Chris. I said no

28:21

to everything. I got offered pretty

28:23

much. It was all either reinforcing

28:26

this idea that I was this

28:28

one character or just objectively bad.

28:33

So something you've been very vocal

28:35

about is your Crohn's disease,

28:38

which is a chronic inflammatory

28:40

bowel disease. When

28:43

did you understand that you were sick? I

28:50

had been living sick since

28:53

I was about 19. I

28:57

became aware how sick I was when

28:59

I was hospitalized at 23. And

29:03

I had a

29:06

surgeon look at me in my eyes and

29:08

tell me you need emergency surgery

29:10

and I was like, okay cool. Yeah, and

29:13

he was like no no no no like

29:15

we need to do this right now or

29:17

your insides may explode and you may die.

29:20

Let's stop right there. Because

29:22

you know it's always surprising when a

29:24

doctor when a medical professional is like this

29:26

is so bad. We got to go right in. How

29:31

would you describe the level of agony and

29:33

pain that you were in? You didn't even

29:35

realize it. Oh, it was non-stop.

29:37

It was non-stop. It became

29:40

my normal and this is when you

29:42

know when we talk about everybody hates

29:44

Chris. This is the part that

29:46

most people don't know. That show almost killed me. We

29:49

had to figure out what the direct connection was

29:51

because the doctors I was diagnosed by

29:53

a wonderful black GI

29:55

named Sophie Balzora in New

29:58

York and we've developed

30:00

a relationship after the fact,

30:02

where we keep in touch with each other, we

30:04

check in with each other, I do speaking events

30:06

and things for her. And

30:09

I asked her not that long ago, I was like, how bad

30:11

was I? And she

30:13

was like, now that we're outside of it, you're one

30:15

of the worst cases I've ever seen. It didn't make

30:17

sense why it was so bad. And we realized that

30:19

one of the triggers was with stress. So

30:21

the stress that I was experiencing from fighting

30:24

for my career, from carrying a show at

30:26

12 was slowly scarring

30:28

the insides of my intestines, as it would

30:31

inflame, because my body didn't know what to

30:33

do with the stress. I was so young,

30:35

it just saw this stress as like

30:38

the flu, and it would try to attack a certain part

30:40

of my body to remove it. Were

30:43

you just living day to day just like doing

30:46

your own remedies to do like, this works for

30:48

me, this doesn't work for me, I don't eat this,

30:50

I don't eat this. Like how were you managing from

30:52

day to day? I was throwing up like three times a day, trying

30:57

not to eat when I knew I

30:59

had to work because

31:01

I knew eating could possibly mess something up

31:03

and I didn't know what it was. At

31:08

some point, after I was diagnosed, they were

31:10

like, hey, you need to have surgery. And then I remember

31:12

my response was, I'm in the middle of production, I can't.

31:15

And they were like, that's okay, that's not

31:17

really an option. So there

31:19

was a period of like, almost

31:23

a year to year and a half, I was

31:25

living on painkillers. Like I was

31:27

living off of Percocets and hydrocodone. Because the

31:29

doctors didn't diagnose you yet, so you were

31:31

just getting the... There was just pain and

31:33

I would go to the hospital, they'd be

31:35

like, I don't know what's wrong with you

31:37

because it doesn't really show up on an

31:39

x-ray. But

31:43

even after I was diagnosed, I was, it

31:45

was the middle of shooting, I was

31:47

shooting Detroit for Catherine Bigelow.

31:50

Oh, the movie Detroit, yes. While also

31:52

shooting Criminal Minds. Oh,

31:54

too very heavy. So I

31:56

was working seven days a week. I was shooting

31:58

Criminal Minds in LA. and then

32:00

flying to Boston and Detroit to shoot

32:03

Detroit back and forth. And

32:05

I was like, there's no way I can stop right now. So

32:08

I just kind of lived off

32:10

of these very

32:12

strong, very strong

32:15

painkillers. At a certain

32:17

point, your doctor then said to

32:19

you, emergency surgery, they

32:22

removed six inches of your lower

32:24

intestine. And

32:27

that's not all. You went

32:29

into septic shock. Yeah, yeah.

32:33

Another thing that happened. So when they removed

32:35

six inches of my intestines, typically what they

32:37

will do is they will give somebody who

32:39

had that kind of a surgery an ostomy

32:42

bag for it to heal and

32:44

then reconnect everything later. Again, I'm

32:46

an actor. I'm like, I don't have that kind of

32:48

time and two, I can't be walking around with this.

32:51

So my surgeon, he said, I'm going

32:53

to try. I'm going to try not to and we'll see

32:55

what happens. He reconnected

32:58

everything. I lasted

33:00

maybe four or five days before it perforated

33:02

and opened back up. And

33:06

they took me back into emergency surgery and I

33:08

came out with an ostomy that I had for

33:10

about six weeks. And

33:13

that's when everything broke. That's

33:15

when like I broke completely. I

33:19

needed that. I needed it to sit me down.

33:22

It sat you down. It sat me down. I

33:24

think that was the first time I had it. It was only

33:26

six weeks. It felt like years. Yeah.

33:28

But it was only six weeks and I needed to

33:30

sit down and I needed to stop because

33:33

you can't work or

33:35

live in the place of hyper stress like that

33:38

where you feel like you're fighting for your life.

33:40

For me, it was either I have a long

33:42

career or my life in shortly.

33:45

And that was the stakes for me. But

33:48

you can't exist like that. How

33:51

are you now? How is your

33:53

health now? That's the thing that's so

33:55

beautiful. I haven't had an incident

33:58

where I had to go to the hospital in years. At

34:00

this point I'm on medication, but

34:02

I think also I changed the way I lived

34:06

It was a lot of it was diet for me. There were

34:08

certain things like I just couldn't have anymore I haven't had a

34:10

drink of alcohol since I was 23 I

34:13

haven't had a cup of coffee since I was 23 these are all

34:15

things that can like set it off Are

34:17

these things you miss? No

34:21

because they always

34:23

came with pain right Okay,

34:26

you weren't having a good time when you were

34:28

drinking like I was in the club with everybody

34:30

like why does this hurt? So

34:33

no, I don't miss them because I don't miss the pain

34:35

that comes along with them But

34:38

a lot of it was mental a lot of

34:40

it I had to change the way I lived

34:43

the way I worked the way I had to

34:45

go into therapy and start Processing the things that

34:47

I had gone through an experience. I couldn't just

34:49

muscle them through I

34:53

Had to become a healthier person in my mind

34:57

So that it wouldn't affect my body as

34:59

much. Yeah, but thankfully You're

35:02

here. It works. It works therapy works Doctors

35:04

know what they're talking about typically And

35:08

when they say you need to stop and slow down you

35:10

should probably listen to that Let's

35:13

take a short break if you're just joining

35:15

us My guest today is Tyler James Williams

35:17

one of the stars of Abbott Elementary, which

35:19

is now in its third season We'll

35:22

continue our conversation after a short break. This

35:25

is fresh air in any great

35:27

story There's a moment that sparks

35:29

your curiosity Tells

35:31

you there is more to uncover how how

35:33

did this happen? How did we get here?

35:35

That's where embedded comes in We

35:37

are NPR's home for documentary

35:40

journalism immersive and intimate stories

35:42

I was stone-called speechless nothing

35:44

will ever ever ever ever

35:46

be the same here find

35:48

embedded wherever you get your podcasts Drake

35:52

and Kendrick Lamar have been lobbing some

35:54

serious accusations at each other You've

35:56

probably heard the diss tracks and wondered what's just

35:59

a low blow and what's actually

36:01

criminal. I'm Brittany Luce, host

36:03

of It's Been a Minute from NPR.

36:05

And I'm getting into what's art and

36:08

what's worthy of criminal investigation and

36:10

who those accusations hurt the most

36:13

on It's Been a Minute from NPR. With

36:15

NPR+, there's more to hear, like

36:17

extended interviews with some of the

36:19

experts we talked to at Planet

36:21

Money and The Indicator. It's a

36:23

mistake for economists to only think

36:25

about economic efficiency when considering policies,

36:27

because you'll actually wind up with

36:30

a worse outcome. And with NPR+,

36:32

you help keep NPR going. Learn

36:34

more at plus.npr.org. This

36:37

is Fresh Air. And today, we are

36:40

talking to actor Tyler James Williams. He

36:42

plays Gregory Eddy in the ABC sitcom,

36:44

Abbott Elementary. Williams' career

36:46

began as a child actor. For four

36:48

seasons, he played the role of a

36:51

young Chris Rock in the semi-autobiographical TV

36:53

show, Everybody Hates Chris. I

36:56

want to go back to talking a little

36:58

bit about Abbott Elementary.

37:00

So this season is

37:02

an important season in the story arc of you.

37:07

And as we've been talking about, it's a

37:09

slow evolving of who

37:11

you are and all the characters. We're learning more

37:13

and more about everyone. But in season

37:15

two last year, your

37:18

character, Gregory, finally kissed

37:20

Janine, Quinta's character. And

37:23

we just knew that this was the season, that

37:25

it was going to be on. But it wasn't.

37:28

Quinta has said that she didn't want the

37:30

show to fall into the typical tropes around

37:32

workplace romance. How do you

37:34

think that decision has allowed maybe Gregory, in many

37:36

ways, to grow and develop as a character even

37:39

more? Because now it's taking us into another

37:41

direction. What I love

37:44

most about Quinta's choice to not immediately

37:46

follow the kiss with a relationship is

37:49

at that point in the

37:52

story, we don't see Janine and

37:54

Gregory as full people. Particularly,

37:56

I felt that way with Gregory. He felt

37:58

like a very polished. perfect man

38:01

and he's not and I think we would

38:03

be doing a disservice to not only him

38:05

but men like him by not showing these

38:07

little cracks and flaws that they had and

38:10

every now and then somebody will send me because

38:12

I try to stay offline as much as possible

38:14

send me how people are reacting to it and

38:16

I love how off-put people were by it because

38:19

it shows he doesn't have to

38:21

be perfect this is part of

38:24

who he is the good and the bad

38:27

you can still really ship the two of

38:29

them knowing that yeah he has

38:31

a jealous streak sometimes and they can unravel

38:33

him a bit that doesn't make

38:36

him any less capable

38:39

or deserving of love you mentioned

38:44

you just slid in there saying like I'm

38:46

not on line or I try not to

38:48

be on yeah like for

38:50

real yeah yeah yeah that's

38:52

pretty unusual for someone your age

38:54

oh I think one of the

38:56

worst decisions we ever made was

39:00

establishing that actors are supposed to

39:03

be very active on the

39:05

internet I

39:10

experienced it before social

39:13

media that's what

39:16

I think a lot of people the hyper focus on

39:18

you yes right I know what it felt like and

39:20

I know what it feels like I

39:22

don't want anymore of that it's really

39:24

hard to explain another uncanny feeling where

39:26

you can feel people hyper focusing on

39:29

you it feels so weird

39:31

and not for the work for

39:34

just you did you ever try it like you

39:36

ever try like you were on for a minute

39:38

like I tried because everyone said that I had

39:40

to and I was like it was dear white

39:42

people that actually bought me an Instagram so

39:45

when I did dear white people I didn't have

39:47

anything really then

39:50

Lena Waithe and Justin Simeon were like hey

39:52

you're kind of one of the more recognizable

39:54

faces of this indie movie that like we

39:56

want people to see yeah use

39:58

your cash please I used that

40:00

and I was like, fine. I

40:04

should have deleted it right after though. I should have

40:06

immediately gotten rid of it. Because

40:08

it's just not something that feels comfortable

40:10

for me. I need to exist as

40:12

normally as possible. I'm

40:15

not somebody who develops fans

40:17

for claps. I don't need to

40:20

hear that. I don't need the

40:22

attention or the recognition

40:25

necessarily. I was going to do the work I was going

40:27

to do regardless. If you happen to like it, I love

40:29

that. But that's not

40:31

why I'm doing it. And I also

40:33

don't think we should micromanage the conversation

40:35

about the art. I shouldn't be

40:37

a part of this. I shouldn't see what y'all are saying. The

40:41

best part of it is when somebody saw something

40:43

and a bunch of men are grouped together at

40:45

the barbershop and they're talking about it. Now you

40:47

can see it online. I don't want to hear

40:49

that conversation. I was also wondering, because

40:51

I think someone else said on the show to

40:53

me, if you believe

40:55

the positive things and you have

40:58

to believe the negative things and the vice versa,

41:00

and so if you just think of it like

41:02

none of it is real, it

41:04

helps you to just block it all out. The

41:07

trap that most people fall into, and I've seen it happen over and

41:09

over and over and over again, is they

41:12

start listening when it's positive. But

41:15

eventually it will always turn. You

41:17

can't give validity to it at all, but

41:20

it feels good when it's positive. So you

41:22

want to. That's why I became just

41:24

kind of one of those people who just, you

41:27

have to block it all out. You

41:29

have to figure out how do you feel about you. And

41:33

I think that's one of the things that has had

41:35

our industry in the stranglehold, is this

41:37

idea of what the audience is going to think before

41:39

you make the art. But

41:42

do you like it? If

41:44

you like it, then do it and put it out. They

41:46

might not. They may shoot it down before they even see

41:48

it. That's fine. That's not why you made it. I've

41:52

learned to turn off the noise good

41:54

and bad. Tyler

41:58

James Williams. This has been. such

42:00

a pleasure talking to you. You

42:02

as well. Thank you. Tyler

42:06

James Williams stars in the ABC

42:08

sitcom Abbot Elementary, which is now

42:10

in its third season. Coming

42:13

up, film critic Justin Chang reviews

42:15

the Japanese drama film Evil Does

42:17

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Code. Program. The

43:17

embedded podcast brings you eye-opening reporting.

43:20

There's something that hasn't been disclosed

43:22

yet. Immersive journalism. I could smell

43:25

the smoke. I could smell the dust. Personal

43:28

stories. I was scared. Like,

43:31

I can't protect you. We

43:33

are NPR's home for documentary storytelling.

43:36

Find embedded wherever you get your podcasts.

43:42

Our film critic Justin Chang named the

43:44

Oscar-winning Japanese drama Drive My Car, the

43:46

best movie of 2021. Now the film's

43:48

writer and director,

43:51

Ryu Suke Hamaguchi, is back with

43:53

Evil Does Not Exist, a new

43:55

drama set in a rural small

43:58

town. Here's Justin's review. What

44:01

do you do after you've directed

44:03

a talky, three-hour Japanese drama that

44:06

became a critic's darling and major arthouse

44:08

hint and received four

44:10

Oscar nominations, winning one for

44:12

Best International Feature? If

44:15

you're a Rusuke Hamaguchi, the

44:17

gifted 45-year-old filmmaker behind Drive

44:19

My Car, you step

44:21

back and go for a long walk

44:23

in the woods in search of fresh

44:25

air and new ideas. The result is

44:28

a mesmerizing new movie, Evil Does

44:30

Not Exist, that leaves

44:32

behind the mostly urban settings of

44:34

Hamaguchi's earlier films like Happy

44:36

Hour and Asuka 1 and 2. It

44:39

takes place in a rural village within

44:42

driving distance of Tokyo that's

44:44

home to a close-knit community of about 6,000

44:46

people. The

44:49

first two characters we meet are

44:51

a young girl named Hana and her

44:53

single dad, Takumi, a

44:55

woodcutter who knows the surrounding forest

44:57

better than most. The

45:00

movie sets a gently pastoral rhythm,

45:03

following father and daughter as they walk

45:05

through the woods, identifying

45:07

trees and other plants, and

45:09

stumbling on the occasional dead deer. Takumi,

45:13

wonderfully played by Hitoshi Omika,

45:16

knows that their presence here is disruptive,

45:19

but he and his fellow residents do

45:21

strive to be good, responsible stewards of

45:23

the land. And

45:25

so they're incensed when they learn

45:27

that a company is planning to build a

45:29

glamping resort in the area, with

45:32

potentially disastrous environmental consequences.

45:36

And so Evil Does Not Exist begins

45:38

as a kind of ecological parable, pitting

45:41

townsfolk against corporate developers. The

45:45

centerpiece is a brilliantly written

45:47

and acted sequence, in

45:49

which the company reps meet with the locals, promising

45:52

that the campsite will bring tourists

45:54

and boost their economy. But

45:57

the locals aren't fools, and

45:59

one One by one, they raise issues, from

46:02

the risk of wildfires from barbeque pits to

46:05

the septic tank that will pollute the

46:07

town's water supply. The

46:09

sequence has some of the texture of

46:12

a Frederick Wiseman documentary, and

46:14

it's similarly skilled at turning a

46:16

slideshow presentation in a community center

46:19

into the stuff of engrossing drama.

46:22

There's a turning point in the story when

46:24

one of the company reps, Takahashi,

46:27

played by the actor Ryuji Kosaka, seems

46:31

to fall under the spell of this

46:33

wooded region, and even

46:35

fantasizes about moving here. For

46:38

a while it looks like the movie might be

46:40

the story of a city mouse turning country mouse,

46:43

but nothing about evil does not exist

46:46

turns out to be predictable. As

46:48

he's done before, Hamaguchi gives

46:50

his characters who are too complicated

46:52

and richly drawn to be reduced

46:55

to any one type. That

46:57

doesn't explain how hauntingly different this

47:00

movie feels from his other work.

47:03

It's more sparsely written and

47:05

more unsettling in tone. The

47:08

musical score, composed by Eiko

47:10

Ishibashi, is both lush

47:12

and ominous, and it

47:14

often cuts off abruptly to this orienting

47:16

effect. The outdoor scenery

47:19

is shot with a crystalline beauty, but

47:21

the longer you watch, the more sinister

47:24

the imagery become. At

47:26

times Hamaguchi positions the camera at ground

47:29

level looking up, as

47:31

if to show us the perspective of the

47:33

Earth itself. In these

47:35

moments, the human characters suddenly look

47:37

strangely alien, like the interlopers

47:40

they are. I've

47:42

seen evil does not exist a few times

47:44

now, and each time it's

47:46

held me wrapped, only

47:48

to leave me feeling profoundly unnerved.

47:51

Much of that has to do with the ending, which

47:54

is confounding in ways that have already

47:56

generated a lot of debate. with

48:00

the ending myself, and what

48:02

it says about the human compulsion

48:04

to dominate one's environment. I'm

48:07

also still getting a handle on the title. It's

48:10

as if Hamaguchi is trying to get us to

48:12

look at the natural world, human

48:14

beings included, beyond the

48:17

comforting framework of good versus

48:19

evil. Nowhere

48:21

is this more evident than in the character

48:23

of Takumi, whom Omika plays

48:25

with an inscrutability that both frightens

48:28

you and draws you in. He

48:31

may be a loving father and caretaker of

48:33

the land, but Takahashi misreads

48:35

him at his own peril. It's

48:38

the two lead actors' performances that

48:41

keep you watching through the shattering

48:43

final moments. Whether

48:45

or not evil exists, I'm

48:47

glad a movie this mysterious

48:49

and powerful does. Justin

48:52

Chang is a film critic at The New

48:55

Yorker and winner of this year's Pulitzer Prize

48:57

for criticism. He reviewed the

48:59

Japanese drama film Evil Does Not

49:01

Exist. Tomorrow on Fresh

49:03

Air, the militias of the Middle East,

49:05

their roles in the war between Israel

49:07

and Hamas, and the power they

49:10

exert in their home countries. Our

49:12

guest will be Greg Karlstrom, who covers the

49:14

Middle East for The Economist. I hope you

49:16

can join us. Our

49:21

interviews and reviews are produced and edited

49:23

by Amy Seelit, Phyllis Myers,

49:25

Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger,

49:28

Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Thea

49:30

Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Joel

49:33

Wolfram. Our digital media

49:35

producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Roberta

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Shurrock directs the show. With

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Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Moseley. This

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