0:00

catabolic crises fuelled events

0:02

of disuse and disease what

0:04

are they are they something that we all

0:06

be preparing for consider

0:08

the critical threshold of old age? imagine

0:11

you feel pressure to cross a busy intersection

0:13

but your ability to do

0:15

so on time, falls out of sync

0:17

with your capacity to do so cars

0:20

are honk and you tell yourself it's the last

0:22

time you'll be doing that your gait

0:24

speed, the speed at which you walk, has become

0:26

too slow what started

0:28

as a brief period of immobilization

0:30

from your routine hospital save for the flu

0:33

or a simple surgery has become

0:35

something more you've crossed

0:37

the disability threshold the

0:41

result habit disruption

0:44

rather than going for your daily walk

0:46

you decide to stay home and in

0:48

that moment began to decline

0:51

the , of daily habit that sustained

0:53

your muscle although wiki from gradual

0:55

circle kenya has suddenly broken

0:58

loose and the floodgates are loose

1:00

propelling you towards even greater atrophies

1:02

and so called catabolic crisis

1:05

crisis other punctuated advance of

1:07

disuse and disease that

1:10

may spell out a more precipitous more

1:13

and they may be also as our guest today

1:15

suggests one way in which

1:17

animal models of caloric restriction

1:20

popular in the aging community has

1:22

failed to account for in

1:24

that small respect i think

1:27

today's desk maybe the voice of

1:29

the other side there is

1:31

good news even the very old

1:33

a non a generic and or a person who

1:35

was from ninety to ninety nine years old

1:38

who may lack the capacity for meaningful improvements

1:41

in muscle mass can experience at large

1:43

relative improvements in gate speed and strength

1:46

through a few simple changes and habits

1:48

in particular resistance exercise

1:51

doctor stewart philips is professor can

1:54

easy allergy at mcmaster university

1:56

in hamilton ontario canada where

1:58

canada where serves as a direct the physical

2:00

activity centre of excellence his

2:03

, centers on the roles exercise

2:05

and nutrition play in influencing

2:07

human skeletal muscle protein turnover

2:10

and how these lifestyle factors influence

2:12

body composition especially as

2:14

we age age is in many

2:16

ways a legend for his contributions

2:19

to understanding how factors and

2:21

signals influencing muscle protein

2:23

synthesis ultimately culminate

2:25

in hypertrophy in other words muscle

2:28

growth in this episode we discuss

2:30

the sort of misguided way in which the recommended

2:33

dietary allowance was conceived

2:35

and particularly how the protein are

2:37

deejays might be far from optimal

2:39

especially from the standpoint of muscle

2:42

protein muscle we

2:44

talk about the notion of a sort of muscle

2:46

reserve something that comes easier

2:48

to build when we are younger rather than

2:50

older and how it buffers us against

2:52

a threshold of disability that defines

2:55

catabolic crises like hospitalization

2:58

we talk about why protein is you need

3:00

from other macronutrients and how this

3:02

influences the patterns of intake and

3:04

behavior that help us maximize

3:07

muscle protein synthesis and ultimately

3:09

build and preserve muscle we

3:12

talk about a somewhat disturbing alignment

3:14

of circumstances that magnify the

3:16

effects of age related muscle loss

3:19

at almost the exact moment at

3:21

which the effects of anabolic resistance

3:23

set in were older adults become

3:25

less responsive to larger single

3:28

dose is a protein many people

3:30

have also begun to concentrate their protein

3:32

consumption into a single meal

3:35

there

3:36

we talk about differing doses of

3:38

protein protein timing and the anabolic

3:41

window at resistance training and

3:43

how much protein is needed for people in

3:45

different life stages or levels in

3:47

types of activity ranging from older

3:49

adults to elite athletes we

3:51

talk about how factors like protein

3:53

qualities particularly loosing

3:56

content influence the amount

3:58

of protein needed to me or less

4:00

stimulate the exact same muscle

4:02

protein synthesis response but

4:05

by far one of my favorite

4:08

parts of this conversation this the

4:10

short foray into somewhat

4:12

surprising factors outside

4:14

of protein and resistance exercise that

4:16

reduce cannibalism or the breakdown

4:18

of muscle namely things like omega

4:21

threes and even the heat stress

4:23

response a couple a quick things

4:25

before we start the protest first

4:27

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5:35

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what role my coffee or

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5:44

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6:23

doctor stewart sell it hi

6:26

everyone i'm very honored to be sitting here

6:28

today with our podcast guess doctor

6:30

stewart phillips doctor phillips

6:32

is the director of the physical activity

6:35

centre of excellence ah

6:37

mcmaster university on our ontario

6:39

canada as , are going

6:41

to learn today he is he

6:44

is his research and his his lab

6:46

has made pretty big contributions

6:49

to our understanding of muscle

6:51

protein synthesis and i'm

6:54

pretty excited to dive in

6:55

you all that research i've spent the last

6:57

week leading review article

7:00

grand ideas korea

7:01

there are so i mean i now i feel

7:03

like i've just learned a tremendous amount

7:05

their timing but i knew last week the i mean

7:07

this is actually south and

7:10

maybe we can just start off talking about

7:12

muscle mass and in and

7:15

why you know in we we

7:17

hear our often times to this it's almost

7:19

everyone knows about body mass

7:21

and body fat

7:23

and to give and v m eyes and what's a healthy

7:25

be a mine what's not and

7:27

ah but in a muscle mass

7:29

is also important maybe we heard about

7:31

white shirt yeah mean i think

7:34

when you step on a scale ah everybody

7:36

and we should realize that the sum of

7:39

all of your body somebody say compartments

7:41

is what you see on the scale arm and

7:43

most people can appreciate our obviously

7:46

they're obviously they're about their body fat contents

7:48

on but a large part of what's registering

7:51

on the scale is actually what we call lean

7:53

mass or some of his muscle mass

7:55

and then obviously your bone mass as well so

7:58

i think most people we understand

8:00

we're above almost seventy percent

8:03

of by content water and most

8:05

of that waters inside ourselves a lot

8:07

of is inside muscle mass and will be com muscle

8:09

mass or of lean mass is very

8:12

hydrated tissue fat mass is actually

8:14

not and and

8:16

it's preservation muscle mass preservation

8:18

least mass we get older is critical

8:21

for health critical think it's one of the things that's

8:23

lost on that's lot of people to

8:25

say well that's great the you're you're maintaining

8:27

you're body weight but weight don't maintain muscle

8:29

mass it has some pretty and deleterious com

8:31

fucking

8:32

a muscle mass correlates and

8:35

mr typically with with

8:36

mortality rate and mean down inverse

8:38

correlation absolutely i

8:40

mean i think that the outward manifestation

8:42

of muscle mass is obviously did you

8:45

know our ability to move around strength

8:47

on getting our part of a chair that

8:49

sort of thing at some stage in our life you're gonna

8:51

have to be able to do these sort of

8:53

rudimentary activities of daily living

8:56

and once you can't do them then you know you

8:58

need somebody to care for you so on

9:00

it's not surprising that there are as

9:02

you say correlations between muscle mass and

9:04

mortality it's never a vitally important

9:07

organ if you look at it that way i

9:10

think the frailty and act switches

9:12

there's a lot of measures that go into

9:14

that you know and or else indexes as

9:17

it older at least over sixty five it's a pretty

9:19

good predictor of mortality yeah

9:21

and and muscle mass is a important component

9:23

of admire am i right absolutely yeah yeah

9:25

i mean i think all of these definitions you

9:27

say frailty i mean that the precursor

9:29

will be circle p nearer loss of muscle

9:31

mass as we age on all

9:33

have a component of measuring lean

9:36

mass or muscle mass and it's predictive

9:38

of a downward decline as we get older

9:40

for sure

9:41

some studies that have that has

9:44

also correlated specifically lower

9:47

body

9:48

i think strength

9:50

the lower body with improved

9:52

cognition and i

9:54

was wondering just

9:55

for me and i i i don't

9:57

like why not upper body while

9:59

where body like you think there's is

10:02

there

10:02

they in a potential like people that

10:04

are also doing cardio are getting some

10:06

lower body strength and or would you have

10:08

any idea yeah i'm not sure

10:10

i can answer the question but it's interesting to know

10:12

get somebody swirly since come up and

10:15

the you know when to correlation obviously it's

10:17

association and people wanna know enough is

10:19

is a positive for agency always kind of hedge

10:21

your bets and in what , say

10:23

to people i said are i don't know

10:26

ah but it's not a bad goal to aim for

10:28

to have stronger legs and be able to move

10:30

around and yeah that correlates

10:32

with you know improve cognition and mental

10:35

function as you age you know if

10:37

you if if a connection between the two

10:39

it's it's not a bad gold aim for

10:41

whether one causes the other i

10:43

can't say but some yeah

10:45

i'll i'll take it if it's a if it's a causative

10:48

relationship for sure

10:50

what what percent

10:52

of muscle mass to do

10:54

humans lose

10:56

like per year and wonder that stars like

10:59

how could any yeah this this

11:01

is the you know i would say sixty

11:03

four thousand dollars all that when getting much

11:05

these days probably more question i suppose

11:08

i'm most ,

11:10

will say that somewhere in your thirties

11:13

or forties are you you're beginning

11:15

to lose muscle mass my own personal

11:17

opinion is somewhere probably concern

11:19

about fifty six or thereabouts but

11:22

that personally ass ass

11:24

bit something it you know probably for

11:26

most people that you can see in their forties

11:29

and usually what we

11:31

say on a population level it's about a one

11:33

percent loss of muscle mass per year

11:36

and about a one to three percent drop

11:38

in strength or power on

11:40

power the muscle mass

11:42

decline is actually slower than we lose

11:44

strength and and strength is is the says

11:47

the outward manifestation of muscle but it

11:49

must speak then to the quality of muscle

11:51

you have and your brain's ability

11:53

to be able to talk to muslim to get to do to

11:55

do things so on

11:58

as much as we can do to try and slow that

12:00

that would be beneficial as we get into or older

12:02

age for sure

12:04

yeah and i guess they want to get into to all

12:06

that stuff what we know

12:08

how we can counter circle

12:09

yeah my mathematics

12:12

the you the

12:14

that building up of the muscle

12:16

reserves not like read something

12:18

i've heard you talk about are you know

12:20

it's

12:21

you know a something that's a common

12:23

, to some degree what does that

12:25

mean and like really is it in

12:27

a really important to do that before that certain

12:30

age and if you don't if you

12:33

they'll start later in life

12:35

yeah yeah great question are i mean

12:38

i think the parallel the most people are most

12:40

familiar with that we can sort of pick on

12:42

and say you know women in particular

12:44

told us that we can we can build bone

12:46

mass up until probably about thirty

12:48

men it's about the same on

12:51

that when women had to words

12:53

and the menopausal transition that they're

12:55

definitely gonna lose bone mass you

12:57

wanna start at a higher level as possible

13:00

i mean everybody after that menopausal transition

13:02

loses bone heard about the same rates

13:04

for you really would like to be a on a higher

13:07

plateau before you get their i

13:09

, the concept is entirely similar

13:11

are with muscles the good news is

13:14

that probably even pastor

13:16

thirties into your forty sixties

13:18

probably even into your seventies we

13:21

can still gain a little bit of muscle me

13:23

can definitely gain strength by concerted

13:25

nino resistance exercise usually

13:28

so you probably have a much bigger window to

13:30

accumulate the muscle that you have

13:32

but it's the same concept is like to go

13:34

into older age when you're beginning to

13:36

lose muscle at a higher level

13:39

because then you're starting the decline

13:41

from a from a higher plateau so

13:43

it's a similar concept i don't know that

13:45

we know exactly how much

13:48

and when arm but they're even

13:50

studies in nonagenarian

13:52

it's me on people in their nineties lifting

13:54

weights and they

13:56

can get stronger now gaining muscle

13:58

not so much but the thing that function back

14:00

so there's some adaptability left in the

14:03

system in a muscle sense

14:05

that isn't fair and in with

14:07

bones for example

14:08

and at the end of the day as is you're mentioning

14:11

it being able to get up out of your chair

14:13

and like these these sorts of on

14:16

important little

14:18

everyday activities that we take for granted

14:20

when you're younger can make a difference

14:23

when you're older a new like farm brick ahead and

14:25

then you kind of don't go into this downward spiral

14:27

here so i'm a stream for

14:29

does

14:30

make a difference with that right i am having

14:32

even if you're not gay

14:32

like being able to have the strength to

14:35

do that there are are absolutely

14:37

i mean i think that that's an that maybe

14:39

a little bit overstated with the importance

14:41

of muscle mass not that it's not important but

14:43

the function and the outcome so the

14:45

strengthen the power is really the

14:47

the key point out even something

14:50

as simple as walking speed or we call normal

14:52

gate speed and in it is the example

14:55

i like to give is to say you know you're standing

14:57

in intersection the walk signal

14:59

comes on and is , certain

15:01

distance you've got across in a certain amount

15:03

of time so you need sir a certain date speed

15:05

and if you ill not that the a motorist

15:08

hopefully we'll see stop it's you know you're

15:10

under pressure make it across an intersection

15:12

months say on it's

15:14

important and we know you know

15:16

fully that once you get to a certain level

15:18

of strength your gate speed drops

15:20

it becomes more difficult to do

15:23

activities of daily living and then you're looking

15:25

at full time institutionalize care

15:27

high quality of life young down and and

15:30

a kind of us back to that that that

15:32

concept of and you know in improving

15:34

have found right at me now

15:35

basically being

15:37

able to delay the onset of these

15:39

eight legged diseases out diseases that hit us later

15:42

in life without any past

15:43

the way that we can absolutely down

15:44

necessarily live much

15:47

much yeah in in some cases delaying

15:49

the that isn't you might get

15:51

irritate ray i mean yeah i agree i

15:53

think it's it's not tried

15:55

to say but you know every single what's exercise

15:57

gonna give you and we do have and again it's

16:00

starvation or date of course on

16:02

that the a once you hit that sort of

16:04

hundred and fifty minutes of moderate to vigorous

16:06

whichever okay that's the guidelines and

16:09

i think you know you you maintain your strength

16:11

and so make sure you do those two days is strengthening

16:14

exercises a week on

16:16

we get our to say we get on

16:18

average when you look at eb mock mean

16:20

a population data about for extra years

16:22

of life so i think most people

16:24

would take that if that were pill weepy no

16:27

i wouldn't be sitting here i'd be skype and and from

16:29

tahiti or something ah

16:31

and most people was he realized

16:34

then that then your health span that's associated

16:36

with that associated long as well so it's so

16:39

it's in your life this longer

16:41

but it's time your life that is spent in

16:43

good health and for most people that's

16:45

a better quality of life absolutely

16:47

ah so let's talk about

16:50

some of the major

16:53

signal than inputs that regulate

16:56

approaching synthesiser which the i

16:58

guess we can talk about how much that correlates with muscle

17:00

man strength

17:01

thank you

17:03

published any other subtlest first talk

17:05

about recommended ,

17:07

allowances for protein intakes or for

17:10

adult yep in the united states and

17:12

canada it's , zero

17:14

point eight grams of protein per

17:16

kilogram bodyweight correct and yep

17:18

and then i don't know what people are actually

17:20

consuming maybe you can get shed some light

17:22

on to that what they're actually consuming us

17:24

but also like what your it

17:26

no you have thought because you publish them on

17:28

whether or not it's scientifically sound

17:31

young that number on

17:33

the difficult yeah yeah ah

17:35

is so i'm reminded of things that precursor

17:38

like to start off with see people say you

17:40

know how is protein different than everything

17:42

else to read more does the to say i often

17:44

explain to people that carbohydrates and

17:46

thoughts and thus fuel the about you'd

17:48

put that in you burn it or restore

17:51

it and fortunately we're really good at doing that

17:53

on but protein is

17:55

something that when you ingest the at your body has

17:57

to use it and it can't this like

18:00

a little sort of place that you can store away

18:02

the building blocks of protein which are amino

18:04

acids and , of use

18:06

them for later although your muscle is sort of a reservoir

18:09

of that so it does turn over a little bit

18:11

bit and then so when we think about it

18:13

from a daily recommended

18:16

intake or will be called the recommended dietary

18:18

allowance it's the amount of protein

18:21

that you need to ingest to

18:23

replace all of the protein and amino

18:25

acids that your body loses and most of it is

18:27

lost in urine is your is ah

18:30

and as soon as he fall as i have

18:32

stopped trying to fight too much against this

18:34

because i would actually be happy if

18:36

they just seems the name from recommended

18:39

dietary allowance to minimal

18:41

allowance intake to first

18:43

i don't think it should be recommended because it's too

18:45

low on i think you should be

18:48

allowed to eat more ah

18:50

so point eight i think his to me that's

18:52

the sort of bottom level by and that's

18:54

the that's where you need to start and then build

18:56

up from there so most

18:59

of the data that we have and it's not

19:01

ours there's lots of other people have contributed to

19:03

this as well suggests that the minimum

19:05

might be close to about one point two grams

19:08

per kilogram of body weight per day

19:11

and below athletes and even

19:13

older people could probably benefit even from

19:15

going up from that level up to about one

19:17

point six at a certain point

19:19

certain don't think you can put too much protein

19:21

back into the system and the system

19:24

would hang onto it so every

19:26

species evolved a way of getting rid

19:29

of extra protein this

19:31

it's ammonium words it's uric

19:33

acid mammals it's urea so

19:36

, an upper limit ah

19:38

but most people depending

19:41

on what surveys you look at when they're younger

19:43

and even middle aged are probably doing

19:45

okay doing terms of protein so all and

19:48

on hard to say probably not a big issue ah

19:51

when you get little older people's appetite goes

19:53

down people tend to gravitate towards

19:55

different ways of eating and protein

19:58

actually becomes actually much smaller for this

20:00

of their diet so at , time

20:02

when i think you need more protein

20:05

protein you want to support muscle

20:07

mass and lean mass as you as you age

20:10

most people's protein intake is actually

20:12

going down to levels where it becomes

20:14

are becomes to the

20:16

amount of muscle they can hang on to so

20:19

that i think is an important sort of distinction

20:22

between let's aim at the minimum

20:24

and let's go into what we call them more

20:26

optimal protein intake range

20:28

and i don't know where at

20:31

what age that begins but i

20:33

think it's an important consideration as most

20:35

of us myself , transition

20:38

towards you know i'm looking at the rest of

20:40

my life and thinking i want to be in his bed it

20:42

as best health as i can and

20:44

so i'd have to be a little bit more

20:47

causes and about the protein that a

20:50

what what goes what went

20:52

into you are determining one point

20:54

two grams per kilogram bodyweight so

20:56

if enough

20:57

then it opened

20:58

confirming that probably and and then also

21:01

like you know guess in a talking

21:03

about

21:04

the audience like are we talking about like to

21:06

people that

21:07

in and you know i can be caloric

21:09

x and while they probably aren't getting

21:11

not hurting right i mean i get there in a huge

21:13

excess of getting any more calories

21:15

are probably get more protein and everything else but

21:19

you know the like is this is that is it relevant

21:21

for you know every age or

21:23

maybe people that are really physically i could like you said

21:25

go up a little more so why one point he was

21:28

the

21:28

yeah so the

21:31

original studies that led to the

21:33

derivation of the recommended dietary

21:35

lancer what we call nitrogen balance

21:37

and is that the name implies it's measuring

21:39

all the nitrogen or protein that goes into

21:41

our body and collecting everything that comes out

21:44

panem so wonderful boy for studies

21:46

to do on those days

21:48

so we've known for a long time and are

21:50

problematic because of incomplete collection

21:53

overestimation ah etc

21:55

of losses so one of

21:58

the things that we

22:00

do now is that the closer you get

22:02

to your requirement your your body actually

22:04

gets much more efficient utilizing protein

22:06

so and that's not really taken

22:08

into account in the way people of model that

22:11

data so without chino

22:13

going to deep into the weeds let's just

22:15

say that there are alternative approaches using

22:18

stable isotopes that have consistently

22:20

shown that people actually

22:23

need when i say need to need to

22:25

the balance that we talk about ah

22:27

higher intakes and so that's the one point two

22:29

so it's it's not that you know

22:31

point eight really bad you know does

22:33

it for a lot of people we need to come

22:36

up to one point two and then from

22:38

one point two above were talking about

22:41

optimal or intakes and

22:43

i think the example the one that meet people

22:45

can maybe relate to a little bit is that often

22:48

, probably about twenty

22:50

twenty five years ago we aimed

22:53

at a vitamin c and take that prevented

22:55

scurvy and that was good because

22:57

who wants kirby read ah

22:59

but then we've done some science and

23:01

in no not me but obviously lots of other people

23:03

to show that in take some bugs the

23:06

vitamin c and take the prevented scurvy

23:08

righteous initiated with health benefits and

23:11

so we make that recommendation we

23:13

haven't done that for protein were still aiming

23:15

at the prevention of deficiency as opposed

23:18

to the optimization of processes

23:20

that are important and

23:23

there's still lot of people have pushed back against my

23:25

view points and points all of i'll take

23:27

the heat i think what hasn't been considered

23:29

is this maintenance of muscle and

23:32

mobility as we age that

23:34

is in part driven by protein

23:36

intake i'm intake the other half is we can't get

23:38

away without talking about exercise rates so that

23:40

the other guy saying equation

23:43

let's let's talk a little bit about the protein

23:45

intake and you'd you'd like my people can push back in

23:47

there

23:48

you know that there there definitely

23:50

are

23:51

animal studies that have

23:53

looked at you know calorie restriction

23:55

and and protein restriction

23:58

and it's effect on how loud

23:59

rodents live young

24:02

and healthy the lab and

24:04

i just i think that

24:07

as you and i

24:07

talked off off camera

24:09

either there's there's a lot of

24:13

the friend hide the people

24:15

that are in different life stages we about obese

24:17

people like sedentary that could

24:19

probably benefit from caloric restriction

24:21

you've got young healthy active physically

24:23

active people the of that are probably needing

24:26

more protein intake with but the older people

24:28

that are battling stop circle piney other probably

24:30

need more protein intake i'm and

24:32

then we have anything to me at

24:34

today same indicated

24:36

i've heard about it fast enough for them again

24:39

you know and anything what what

24:41

needs to be a better job at needs to be done

24:43

is basically just

24:44

the thing about the audience too young about okay

24:46

cool who are we speaking to here with

24:49

this specific thing we're talking about

24:50

is it important there's different people in different

24:53

stages of life and then army

24:55

i think also with some

24:58

of the protein restriction as wow it is very

25:00

there and and i've listened to some of

25:02

the things that

25:02

the talked about the rest

25:05

you know extrapolating

25:07

day yeah from a lab animals

25:10

are specifically on calorie restriction

25:12

and dietary

25:12

there's and parking restrictions yeah yeah humans

25:15

are maybe a little murky because of something

25:18

called this disuse and disease

25:20

yeah that humans are so

25:23

susceptible to it or how can you talk a little bit about

25:25

the could make so much that

25:26

yeah i mean that

25:28

is the rider statement i think the and and deal

25:30

with that disclaimer ready to start is to say

25:33

tremendous amount of respect for the science

25:35

of the people that do the studies around caloric

25:37

restriction protein restriction etc most

25:40

of it has done as you mentioned in in

25:42

lab animals mostly small rodents so

25:44

usually mice or rats

25:46

sometimes and , i

25:48

think one of the things that's important to

25:50

to to point out is on

25:54

when we compare primates head to head

25:56

so this head so caloric restriction arguably

25:58

the most robust model survival

26:01

extending a lifespan of

26:03

the did is actually conflicting it's only been

26:05

done obviously in two different locations

26:09

and , if you are a primate you know in

26:11

one location you did better than primates

26:13

in the other but the net result was it actually

26:15

didn't extend lifespan so that's

26:18

sort of makes you think okay maybe there's

26:20

it's not as clear cut as you might think

26:23

obviously small rodents their

26:25

mammals so the extrapolation

26:28

to us is often done

26:30

drug companies do it all the time i understand

26:33

i , the thing

26:35

that i focus on the most is around

26:38

there's a caged animals have that hasn't

26:40

lived in a very controlled environment and

26:43

sued is in of the there is

26:45

no fluctuation in suited sort of held at

26:47

here or here because it's given

26:49

are taken away from the animal so the

26:52

choice is taken away from the animal the human

26:54

beings they're notoriously

26:56

sometimes great sometimes not so

26:58

much at making and

27:01

, that these animals are exposed

27:03

to a lot of the same stressors so one of

27:05

the concepts that we don't

27:08

have any and it was something and

27:10

reading ah the good friend of mine

27:12

deadpan jones who sadly passed

27:14

away really early in his life i'm i'm

27:17

out at these catabolic crises that

27:19

we house and for him it meant a

27:22

period of period and

27:25

you during this defense at this event

27:28

de facto treatment in hospital as you go

27:30

into you rest and we've known

27:32

for years that you know putting people in

27:34

bed rest and you can rest any clinician

27:37

it's a bad situation you're not

27:39

using your muscles see everything because you

27:41

become instantly sedentary obviously

27:44

and it it it would exacerbate a lot of

27:46

other issues if you went into as bad rats

27:48

with type two diabetes rats were overweight

27:50

you etc ,

27:52

you so these events

27:55

are you can appreciate bad rest and a catabolic

27:57

crisis as you've got a hospital event is

28:00

yeah that that's gonna be bad when i

28:02

get that so we sort of said

28:04

while ballot back ballot little bit maybe

28:06

you get flu and

28:09

you're , older person you get some respects

28:11

worry distress you go in the hospital for a

28:13

few days you're on oxygen oxygen

28:16

but you're now you're fine to

28:18

be released from the hospital but you go

28:20

home and convalesce for two weeks so this is

28:22

a disuse events relatively

28:25

speaking the euro case that

28:27

you sit around for two weeks and

28:29

we think as you get older even those

28:32

types of events are a disused

28:34

event that we think precipitate say

28:36

an issue an

28:39

, fond of saying that while the you know this happens

28:41

every year in our what happens everywhere

28:43

of these people get the flu on i

28:45

said but there's maybe uniquely if not

28:48

canadian but

28:49

northern us phenomenon that when it's

28:51

freezing cold outside you also was an older

28:53

person you don't coincide

28:55

the don't want to shovel you snow you

28:58

you could slip you could you know so and

29:00

clinicians would say yeah but how often

29:02

does that happen then covert com

29:04

the line and i said happened

29:06

lot

29:07

so i feel a little bit

29:09

of vindication i said this is irrelevant model

29:11

am and what happens is if you can

29:13

imagine somebody is there are already going

29:16

down because circle penis happening when

29:18

they have a disuse event they they they

29:20

bend the curb dramatically so there's an accelerated

29:23

rate of muscle loss and what happens

29:26

when you're younger you go down but

29:28

you're able to bounce back up some

29:30

point in this is universally

29:32

i think understood by clinicians is

29:35

it an older person that has

29:37

that event like that is actually now

29:39

on a different downward trajectory so

29:41

they've actually hot you , they have

29:43

accelerated the the last that

29:45

they hop with aging to a

29:47

fairly large degree

29:50

the best in a way to explain

29:52

it to people is to say you put somebody up

29:54

and space because there's no gravity

29:56

that's effectively disuse because he can't

29:58

really generate any for

29:59

your muscles and , know that

30:02

you know six months or years spending

30:04

up at the space station is about ten

30:07

to fifteen years skeletal and

30:09

muscle aging

30:11

and it's tough to get back in fact most

30:13

of those astronauts i'd be willing to back don't

30:15

get much of that back when they come even

30:17

counter

30:19

that the price you pay for a little

30:21

bit of weightlessness for about six months

30:23

to hear

30:24

wow yeah that's incredible

30:27

about the astronauts but the seeking

30:29

to like what you were saying with the disease and disease

30:31

again i'm and makes lot of suspicious laboratory

30:33

rats or not

30:34

really

30:37

you know so you

30:39

know i think in again at the end of the day just

30:42

to kind of get this thing

30:44

the make it clear to people listening here

30:46

today i i think

30:48

you think there are benefits to different types within

30:51

a minute south african people and

30:53

there are talking about

30:53

to be an of away and

30:56

being having a form of caloric deficit with

30:58

can be achieved a lot of way and yelling probably

31:01

the best i mean like exercise if it exercise

31:03

is probably the cornerstone of house fire at

31:05

me like that are fluid think we agree there but

31:09

they also the decision to the facing

31:11

in others the consequence for six and like were just talking

31:13

about i'm but there's also just not

31:15

eating two to three hours before bachelor and that's

31:17

something the i think most people

31:19

can benefit from honestly relatives you're you're

31:21

not you're do not that and as insulin

31:23

sensitivity or the even again it's nice to have

31:25

a period where you do have from last year suggestion

31:28

anything so lots of texas

31:30

are thing and are you

31:32

know that all gets lost again when

31:34

the column in talk about it in this big

31:36

umbrella kind of i don't generally

31:38

yes and so arses i

31:40

think we're gonna talk about approach

31:41

you're not open to first and

31:43

but but to be honest i think

31:45

people that are overweight and obese they

31:47

, to start their like they have to like lose the weight

31:50

and the another there's ways to do that

31:52

exercise and caloric restriction

31:54

both really effective

31:55

i'm

31:57

the getting back in speaking to the diet

31:59

the rdf for pro

32:02

it's funny because you mentioned the micronutrients you mentioned

32:04

vitamin c and i've

32:06

the stop me from same than the i studied

32:08

micronutrients him and like so

32:10

i've you know the his his whole

32:13

you know his or stick was are

32:15

deejays are like to prevent efficiency with

32:17

our that there has not adequately

32:19

i'm you know so like vitamin d just

32:21

a veteran is that on and right right

32:24

and so i'm very familiar with that words like

32:26

will love yeah who wants to like preventing

32:28

scurvy is one thing but like you

32:30

know not having dna damage that's

32:32

accumulating over time

32:34

that could i bring you the snp the cancer

32:36

well that's important the i we should be thinking my

32:38

they rioted i don't like him

32:40

that on back with

32:42

respect to

32:44

that to them one point two

32:46

grams of protein per day you talk and let's

32:48

look toppled

32:49

bit more about like

32:51

this effect with people are physically active

32:53

soon mention one point six yet now there was

32:55

it the study that i think it was a metre

32:57

analysis out your other else is that

33:00

you guys looked at resistance exercise

33:02

in younger adults younger than sixty five

33:04

and it gets older than sixty five you're on a protein

33:06

intake yeah

33:07

you talk a little bit about like he looked at lean body mass

33:09

and what

33:11

what we've found that what were the major finding yeah

33:13

i mean enough so ah i

33:15

think it's fair to say that our

33:18

lab ah has contributed

33:20

to maybe some of the overstatement of the

33:22

importance of protein from for a muscle

33:24

mass and all of you throw my hands and

33:26

say okay ah the

33:29

early studies that we did particularly where we

33:31

were measuring rates of muscle protein synthesis

33:33

to be searched saw these enormous changes

33:35

with protein and everybody was like the

33:38

important and i'm like absolutely you

33:41

, to accumulate evidence you begin

33:43

to accumulate longer term trials where people

33:45

are fed height or versus low earth

33:47

protein intakes and

33:49

the data looks sort of promising

33:51

but the more trials you get it sorted

33:54

the effect tends to come become

33:56

a little bit smaller little bit let's say

33:58

so i think that it's working

34:00

at one point two is still the the basal

34:02

level back the by and i

34:04

think one point six grams per kilo

34:07

so i n and i know people like to

34:09

talk and pounds so you know it's something

34:11

around certain point six

34:13

two point seven grams per pound and

34:18

, levels after that you can

34:20

digest and eat lots more protein

34:22

your body just can't use it it

34:24

if you're physically active younger person

34:26

we refer to protein to

34:29

and a concept i think this easiest

34:32

is to say you know your muscle or your proteins

34:34

your body or like a brick wall the

34:36

amino acids to the bricks going in protein

34:38

synthesis is the bricks going into the wall

34:41

but at the other end there's a process of bricks

34:44

bad breaks damage bricks old worn

34:46

out bricks being taken out of them all so

34:48

we're turning protein over constantly

34:51

and if you're performing exercising

34:53

you're going out doesn't matter if you're running or lifting

34:55

weights than that protein turnover

34:57

process has accelerated so

34:59

you have to put more breaks into the pool

35:02

into replace the ones that are coming out sounds

35:04

like a really an efficient process but you

35:06

can imagine if he did that every day to

35:08

the walls around your house they be in

35:10

great shape so that's a good

35:12

thing on , think

35:14

as you get older what happens is that

35:17

the bricks that are coming in argues

35:19

as efficiently efficiently we're still palm

35:21

breaks out of the wall and that sort

35:23

of tipped the balance in and we begin

35:25

to lose muscle mass if you go into

35:27

bed rest we tip that in the opposite direction

35:29

and and really severe really and

35:32

seat and most people have experienced

35:34

and we use this we as an

35:36

experimental model a period you put a cast

35:39

on your leg or your arm he take

35:41

the cast off many looking so where did my leg

35:43

or my arm go well that's local

35:45

muscular atrophy on

35:48

that you when you're young ah

35:50

most people ask why don't we don't rehab for

35:53

young kids if they fall out of a tree and break

35:55

their arm a answer is answer don't have to because kids

35:57

just go back and keep doing and playing

35:59

back they

35:59

that the rehab i'm

36:02

, as we get older older don't

36:04

tend to do that so we need active rehab

36:06

and i think that that's than the period

36:08

where you need to put more protein

36:10

back into the system to try to restore

36:13

that it just becomes ridiculous the difficult

36:15

as you get older so

36:18

young people physically active

36:20

i'm an advocate for higher protein intakes

36:23

protein would agree that most of them mr particularly

36:26

eating to cover their energy needs and consuming

36:29

and mix diet

36:30

there are probably good ah middle

36:32

aged people and i'll be the first person

36:35

or to admit that you're probably not the first

36:37

on with our lauderdale and

36:40

people ask why and i'll give you

36:42

the simple explanation or we

36:44

can conduct last studies on university campuses

36:47

academic research institutions on young

36:49

college age people

36:51

walk with morale

36:52

willing participant in research

36:55

ah me can conduct lot of research on people

36:57

over the age of sixty five says that

36:59

met analysis sort of implies on

37:02

the people in the middle they're betty people

37:05

they've got

37:06

kids jobs lots of things going

37:08

on and we say hey you come into the lab for a

37:10

whole day going to do this and i write my i can

37:12

do that so , what they're

37:15

not studies are often ah

37:17

i think the assumption that it's reasonable one

37:19

as you can draw probably a line on

37:22

the know from young to older people

37:24

and the middle aged people would be in the middle

37:27

middle the met analysis was essentially that of

37:29

an attempt to reconcile you know we got

37:31

all of these studies what

37:33

does protein do for lean body

37:35

mass and the answer

37:37

is if you're younger and

37:39

you'd resistance training sigur lifting

37:41

weights you want to get a bit bigger bit stronger

37:44

one point six grams of protein per kilo

37:46

per day was the per day of in take the you

37:48

need to consume but the fact

37:51

is is small though in other words

37:53

i like to enough to put a practically

37:56

i say you get most of the benefit from

37:58

just going to the gym and the

38:00

protein a fact is a is a thin

38:02

layer on top and , the same

38:04

story is you get a little bit older ah

38:07

the bad news or hum like a lot

38:09

of things are although aging is great you

38:11

know you're more wiser yeah everything else

38:13

like that but things slow down and

38:15

so the protein begins to add add

38:19

sir smaller amounts and so it's it's

38:21

a small nudge odd you get a little

38:23

bit of extra strength to get a little bit of

38:25

extra of but it's

38:27

really their that the lifting of the weights

38:30

that is the big driver of all

38:32

of the benefits and all of against so

38:35

against is simply put on protein

38:37

is we talk about the

38:39

efficient and necessary

38:42

for a little bit of extra strength but it

38:44

it's a small it's a thin slice on top

38:47

of what lifting weights provides and senses

38:49

strengthen

38:50

i'm a fan of the one point two is

38:52

kind of going back to that number yeah yeah you

38:54

need to come to need to start there and then you can move

38:57

up but there's obviously there's a ceiling

38:59

yeah it ends eat else we

39:01

, obviously i i

39:04

a discussion about city be one point

39:06

six something i hear or

39:09

seen a caloric deficit and i'm like yeah

39:11

you probably sandy little bit more

39:13

because her in a calorie deficit again

39:15

your sir tipping the scales in favor

39:17

of the breakdown side of thing that says you

39:20

know for calorie deficit sore or

39:22

catabolic stimuli and it's

39:24

catabolic from awful to so on

39:27

yep there are probably situations where we

39:29

need a little bit more fun how

39:31

long how much that's those

39:34

are barely let's call them find

39:36

details

39:37

what about in this office he tells them

39:40

toting timing in

39:41

yeah i

39:42

it is a problem with com

39:45

in question they asked the idea

39:47

should i put my one point two grams

39:49

into when in a three point

39:51

four

39:52

the grams per kilogram works

39:54

if there is the is a stimulus and will

39:56

talk

39:56

more about why proteins at

39:59

the stimulus clear

39:59

awful

40:00

yet but yet

40:01

you know you just be higher with

40:05

the question on are

40:07

you know ah again i'm i'm i'm

40:09

drawing as

40:10

as much from evidence as i can hear in a

40:12

little bit for my sort of own sense so

40:14

yeah take this with a grain of sand i

40:17

think the way the are you your body is

40:19

set up in your muscles in particular prefer

40:21

to be said regularly so pulse

40:24

chino breakfast lunch dinner and a snack

40:26

or whatever it isn't so when i'm talking

40:29

to athletes who were there

40:31

handle i cram

40:32

the lab olympic level ah

40:35

i get to talk to money every now and again and i always

40:37

say you know you guys are clearly like

40:39

we've the skimmed off

40:42

everybody who is sort of a mere mortal like

40:44

me on , now we've got

40:46

these these elite specimens and they

40:48

probably should eat that way now

40:50

i appreciate that sometimes training that is

40:53

difficult for them to do and everything else like that

40:55

but but think they to benefit

40:57

from even from whether

40:59

it's a huge of fact ah i think

41:02

for most think mortals not

41:04

a big deal i think if you're the top level athlete

41:07

and you're probably looking to metal

41:09

or been in a win this or when that

41:12

then maybe some of those small differences

41:14

that's the sort of the the last little

41:16

part the you need to turn the dial that is

41:18

the margin of victory and at the top

41:21

level so we talk about even

41:23

spacing your protein i think

41:25

for most people are it's not that

41:27

big a deal on there's

41:30

also timing with respect to exercise

41:32

and so i lived through that phrase

41:35

ah not

41:37

as big a deal as we once thought so it's really

41:39

about the total amount of protein you're gonna get in the

41:41

day and then the next one would be

41:43

be or even spacing and i'd say yeah and

41:45

then the next one will be sort of protein quality

41:48

where we get into some of the more nuanced

41:50

talk about protein and

41:52

then you can dial it down from there are

41:55

most people i talk to i

41:58

just say empty go to the them

42:00

and they're like yeah yeah i'm like how many times for

42:02

a million a once or twice he said maybe

42:04

you could go two or three times dot

42:07

would probably be a much bigger benefit than i

42:09

need to find my protein

42:11

three times across the day so that point

42:13

yeah sixty ,

42:15

years and older oh yeah yeah yeah

42:18

think you're it's this is where what

42:20

we call a skewed protein intake in the traditional

42:23

and take his lowest at breakfast

42:25

moderate launched and and most of it at

42:27

it i think

42:30

it's probably correct to say that

42:32

that first that breakfast time meal you

42:34

could really stand to push the protein

42:36

intake little bit higher most people

42:39

say heart healthy breakfast whole grains

42:41

that sort of thing and sub that's where the focus

42:44

on when we've looked

42:46

at in takes we've looked of older particularly

42:48

older women are they

42:50

they consumer ridiculously small amount

42:52

of protein a breakfast and i think they could handle

42:55

it has some greek yogurt we we

42:58

take eggs off the dirty list and

43:00

we say it's okay to eat a nag good

43:02

high quality nutrient dense

43:04

source of protein and then they say

43:06

cholesterol on my probably

43:08

not as big a deal as you've been taught and

43:10

you know your eighty five i'm like have an egg

43:12

for goodness sake you know or

43:15

glass of milk and that's

43:17

you know most people say well there's not much protein and

43:19

protein say you're right but it's more than the

43:22

six to eight grams you

43:24

know most of which comes from wheat gluten

43:26

which is you know it's not a particularly high quality

43:28

protein quality that these that

43:30

these function probably aim for

43:33

and it doesn't necessarily again have to be

43:35

enormous amounts people say

43:37

what about protein supplements unlike very

43:40

convenient a if you can't do

43:42

it with food absolutely a protein supplements

43:45

probably useful the

43:48

you know

43:49

whatever suits your your lifestyle

43:51

better but i do think that older people particularly

43:54

instead of having the skew distribution could

43:56

stand to sort of have a more even distribution

43:58

throughout the day

43:59

so our and i'd maybe

44:02

we should talk about

44:03

why protein is

44:06

such a strong stimulus

44:08

for sure increased muscle protein synthesis

44:10

the us what i mean what is it about

44:12

protein if it'll be nasa's

44:15

yet so we eat you said

44:17

it i mean i go back to the brick wall

44:19

analogies that's muscle protein ah

44:22

it's made up of twenty different types of bricks

44:24

those are the twenty amino acids that we have

44:26

nine of which are in central of

44:28

mom we need to get them in our diet and

44:32

, particular there a group of of

44:34

what are called branched chain amino

44:36

acids that are three of the nine nine

44:39

the most potent if you like of

44:41

the three brands chains is an amino acid

44:43

called acid and

44:45

the were like to explain it to people is

44:48

that it's it's kind of like the the

44:50

brick that when it arrives it

44:52

turns the process on and night and

44:54

intensely doing that because i was just like to remind

44:56

people it's like a it's switch so

44:58

it's not you know click click on click off

45:00

it's really like year you glue scene

45:02

comes along and it begins you see the lights

45:05

begin to come on and the lights obviously as a process

45:07

of making new muscle proteins

45:10

so once you have sufficient lucien

45:12

there you can turn the sweatshop

45:15

as you can as i can go once

45:17

you put more loosing their you

45:20

can't go any higher on ,

45:22

older people for reasons that we're beginning

45:24

to unravel now i think what

45:27

happens is now the sensitivity

45:29

of that dimmer switch so you the lucie

45:31

county circuit this response and a younger

45:33

person you might get that that

45:36

so we need more loose seen or

45:38

more branch chains are

45:40

more essential amino acids which translates

45:43

into more uni more protein to

45:45

trigger the halls turning the protein

45:47

synthetic process on so on

45:50

it it's so on pretty nuanced

45:52

level i think of understanding that we're beginning

45:54

to see on when

45:56

we look at diet that people eat that people

45:59

who consume

45:59

your quality proteins or

46:02

sufficient low or quality proteins

46:05

which i'm i'm sure we'll we'll get to on

46:08

it's it's really about the lucy and that they

46:10

consume particularly for their muscle

46:12

odd that the temple

46:14

the i'm question about that the before we get there

46:16

the higher quality obviously the

46:19

animal me is higher in essential amino acids

46:22

they are then plant protein yes

46:24

and so art

46:26

can people that are on a plant

46:28

protein diet and get sufficient

46:31

the to enemy of amino acids to to

46:34

to foster muscle protein synthesis at

46:36

a great question and to you know this

46:38

is one area reboot chatted little bit

46:40

before i came on to say that

46:42

term my understanding and

46:45

the even the studies that would love that i've been involved

46:47

with severe have has changed

46:50

as , so twenty years ago i first

46:52

came to mcmaster i'm like is the here's a

46:54

fundamental truism animal derived

46:56

proteins or higher quality than plant derived

46:59

proteins plant derived proteins

47:01

has anti nutritional nutritional

47:04

is fiber fight aids lots

47:06

of other things that can inhibit protein

47:08

can enzymes and

47:10

scary so that's a big deals can lower

47:12

the quality you're not going to get as many amino essential

47:15

amino acids and essential that's

47:17

true but

47:19

you know fast forward twenty years

47:21

we've now got processing methods that

47:23

can lower or change

47:25

the fiber content we've got foods where

47:28

we've isolated plant proteins

47:30

etc so we've taken a lot of

47:32

that taken of the equation and

47:34

then everybody says but the essential amino acid

47:36

content is lower in plant proteins

47:39

and is an animal animal i keep your you

47:41

know essentially you're correct ah the

47:43

top of the list in the plant kingdom would obviously

47:45

be soy it's you know plant derived

47:47

protein and probably the been the mainstay

47:49

of our twentieth and twenty

47:52

first century begin sort of vegetarians

47:55

on but now we've what we're looking

47:57

at sir but variety of

47:59

plant based protein sources that

48:02

are

48:03

they are contrived the their manufacture

48:07

foods but they're very high quality

48:09

proteins that they're not something

48:11

that people need to worry about interim

48:13

says interim getting an inferior

48:15

quote unquote ah source of

48:17

protein so protein think that

48:19

the way you can make up for the difference

48:22

is you either read either read more over

48:24

here in terms of protein or you

48:27

go towards supplements source

48:29

app suits their actually have taken

48:31

some of the anti nutritional are the

48:33

war and this has been something that we're

48:35

at a key are keenly aware of and

48:37

trying to study is that a lot

48:39

of the prep methods of plant

48:42

proteins like beans and my games he

48:44

you cook them and cooking

48:46

actually liberates a lot of their proteins

48:48

and make them more bio available on so reduces

48:51

the anti ,

48:53

facts so sprouting

48:55

cooking fermentation

48:57

all kinds of things that are commonly done with

48:59

plant based proteins been like eons

49:03

i think you're making the to proteins much

49:05

more close in in quality

49:07

inside has then we once thought

49:10

and so i don't i tend to worry

49:12

less about protein quality

49:14

than i once did and i know that probably

49:17

upsets a lot of people because they're i blow you

49:19

used to say and i like you're right

49:21

i used to say that but the evidence

49:23

is evolving and die even in

49:25

our our own hands we've been

49:28

on

49:29

i think i've been surprised actually at how good

49:31

plant proteins have been in in it stimulating

49:33

awful predicting said

49:35

that's really good to now i'm and i'm gonna

49:37

ask you this because they know

49:39

people listening or watching this are going to ask

49:42

and when you're talking about fiber yeah

49:44

and effect of fiber on the now

49:46

been able to absorb proteins which

49:48

argument within a plant in i like talking

49:50

about eating you are play

49:53

, spin edge with you are stay yeah

49:56

inhibiting get us or that's different the different mean

49:58

the stake in the spin it's still good

49:59

good mix i'm the great

50:02

if you enjoy the eat that way but no i'm

50:04

talking about i i mean here's the other sort

50:06

of knock on some of the studies that we used

50:08

to to make these general listen to their fed

50:10

people are fed individual foods and

50:12

that's really not how we eat we tend to you

50:14

look at the plate and it's got something like this

50:17

i'm , when you do that i

50:19

think the the the point i'm making is

50:21

the fiber that's intrinsic to the plants

50:24

or the fruit or whatever it is is

50:26

it is inhibiting to some small

50:28

degree a your absorption

50:31

of the protein that's there but

50:33

those effects again you you cook

50:35

a being or a a

50:38

p and a lot

50:40

of that goes away so raw piece

50:42

and you know if you eat raw piece okay but

50:44

if you cook the peace there are a lot more

50:46

digestible and so you know a lot

50:48

of the studies that we have to look at protein

50:51

to just ability ability the

50:53

the amino acid scores and there

50:55

are lots of them but a

50:58

i don't think are as big of a deal

51:00

ah as we once thought

51:02

yeah you are talking about

51:04

the at the loosing and going at kind circling

51:06

back to that i and i

51:08

wanna get into get into

51:10

underlying causes of of a

51:12

therapy near and

51:14

the kind of for that we get there that

51:16

the loosing supplement it's supplementation

51:19

does come up in my mind or and

51:22

probably , lot of other people's minds as i can

51:24

i suppose

51:25

when lose seen and

51:27

not have taken so much protein

51:30

and have a similar effect on muscle protein

51:32

synthesis yeah yeah i got really great

51:34

question and and we have done some studies

51:36

where we haven't

51:37

well a proof of principle we

51:40

we supplemented people with lucy

51:42

and then we did find that improved the response

51:45

a little you know that the caviar statements

51:47

first of all lucy in his

51:49

of all of the twenty amino acids

51:51

and acids know everybody hasn't near this

51:54

sort of thing but lucien has it it's extraordinarily

51:56

better actually doesn't taste

51:59

great so you need of a bit

52:01

of food science him to take that

52:03

edge off i think ah

52:05

from my perspective my perspective

52:07

that would be sort of a last resort because

52:09

it's it's really you know you are is it

52:11

should always be a food first approach and then

52:13

maybe a supplement and now you're bringing

52:16

it down to the individual components in

52:19

you know you probably get a sense of this from some

52:21

of the studies to be seen with individually

52:24

purified components

52:26

of like a tomato and it was oh it's lycopene

52:29

that's really important when actually there's

52:31

things in the whole tomato that the matrix

52:34

and other things and lots of bioactive

52:36

compound we have no idea what they're doing and

52:38

probably it's tomato is better for you just

52:40

the lycopene alone south you

52:42

know that's that's my my , of ethos

52:45

statement to say say of lucien

52:47

supplementation if

52:49

you must buyer

52:52

beware make sure it comes from a reputable

52:54

company a the internet

52:56

is is is rife

52:58

with crummy supplements

53:01

and he aegis need to know where it's coming

53:03

from so usually look for third party testing

53:06

i tend to like domestic production

53:08

so you know north america if you can

53:11

ah , an hour and then a lot of

53:13

people so what about branch seen supplements and

53:15

i'm like it it's really interesting but they stuck around

53:17

as a sport supplement for for a long

53:19

long time time think the that

53:21

the message is fairly clear now that they're

53:23

largely i would say use less

53:26

on but from be useful to use less

53:28

there are a lot closer to use less and on

53:31

but it's only the lucien out of those

53:33

three amino acids are that's

53:35

the important branched chain amino acid so

53:38

they work because of the loose

53:40

seen so then people say people

53:43

i'm on a high protein diet a supplement with right

53:45

way and and i'm taking brand scenes

53:47

as there's as great job

53:49

instagram name where i see a guy

53:52

in i meal a pool it's

53:54

raining and he's drinking water so it's

53:56

sort of like that's where the brand scenes are

53:58

i'm like you're surrounded by good

53:59

the branch chains are

54:02

probably not a big deal but

54:05

for older people on we've

54:07

done some work and i it's possible

54:09

you going to see products their that fortified

54:11

with a little bit of actually thing

54:14

do you do you absorb lose seen

54:16

like and free for him and it doesn't

54:18

have to be a third

54:19

for now okay know if you absorb

54:21

it every form in fact it's it's it's

54:23

really readily absorbed are the

54:25

big barrier in all the studies we've ever

54:27

done is how to mascot it's tastes

54:29

so you can imagine given it's

54:32

it's taste profile we mix it with

54:34

some sort of citrus in the gummi

54:36

i excuse me give me an citrus fruit

54:39

as lever on and

54:41

time sort of blend that

54:43

sharp bit origen to like oh it's lemon

54:45

it's so oranges grapefruit even

54:47

or something and that tends to be a

54:50

good mix bad say i'm not a food scientists

54:52

used to pineapples yet something like i said

54:54

forty five set up for all their individual down

54:57

there that are you know in as

54:59

you mention innovative when you get older your situation

55:02

like that doesn't those hormones are all

55:04

different and the agree button

55:05

the much right not hungry as my depth

55:07

and this

55:09

they don't to as well i'm all for three hours

55:11

resolutely so

55:12

if you can get you

55:14

know if you can get someone

55:16

having a hard time like this is

55:18

no way they're going to get points for granted

55:21

protein per kilogram by wait like residents

55:23

the the loosing supplementation may

55:25

help with that older person yeah we

55:27

and we've shown that i mean i think it's

55:29

not just our work lots of other people

55:31

are collaborators of my good friends of mine

55:34

have shown the same thing that if he takes even

55:36

a small protein dose and you add a little

55:38

bit of extra lucy and you can make it look

55:40

as if it's a bigger protein ghosts and so

55:43

you know our our dimmer switch analogy

55:45

is that he was here's a small protein

55:47

dose and you get that response here's the small

55:49

protein to us with lucien and now you go

55:52

they be greater than forty five grams

55:54

what was the i it you know the the per meal

55:57

lucien dose is probably somewhere

55:59

in the range of

55:59

three or four grams for an older person

56:02

probably two to three for younger and that's

56:04

just because the younger person has really

56:06

sensitive to the effects but

56:08

we can make can younger person

56:10

when we put a brace on their leg and we get local

56:12

atrophy their atrophied muscle

56:15

looks like an older person's response so

56:17

the disuse response we think

56:19

is sort of it's almost a model of a

56:22

premature aging in terms of your muscle

56:24

anyway the difference is a young person

56:26

does this and they just bounce back an

56:29

older person does this and now they're down

56:31

here so

56:32

hi what can you talk a little bit about

56:34

this

56:36

the i've heard in herb read in your publications

56:38

and i'm sure others as well as anabolic

56:40

resistance

56:41

klein like what yeah

56:44

yeah it's it's a great question i made a

56:46

i don't think that you can discount

56:48

in activity with aging ah

56:51

you know everything is it gets older

56:53

than me and from earthworms all the way up to

56:56

be are humans we do less as

56:58

we age there's no question about that we

57:00

have done some studies where we've used

57:02

step for adoption like abrupt stop

57:05

production as production as of sort of abrupt

57:07

centrism where we can make

57:09

older people must more anabolic li resistant

57:11

as a result of result on

57:14

so clearly activity as a driver

57:16

of it are at the same time

57:18

are at there's probably aspects to do

57:20

with insulin resistance and it doesn't

57:22

need to the overt insulin resistance to

57:24

disagree that you have type two diabetes

57:26

but maybe you have

57:28

what we called vascular insulin resistance

57:31

and what this means is that when you turn

57:33

on insulin usually open

57:35

up blood vessels to allow flown to happen

57:38

and what we think happens with aging is that response

57:40

becomes just a little bit less sensitive

57:43

you're not insulin resistance the

57:45

perspective of blood sugar

57:48

but from a protein perspective we think

57:50

that opening up local capella reason

57:52

allowing good blood flow in older people

57:54

just isn't quite as sensitive so again

57:57

people say wow you know what can i do and the

57:59

one answer is to be is physically active can

58:02

that maintains that basket

58:06

or level sensitivity as you get older ages

58:09

gonna get at some point there's no question ah

58:12

but clearly as he said the

58:14

cornerstone is cornerstone maintain your physical

58:16

activity levels be as active as possible

58:19

aerobic exercise absolutely

58:21

resistance exercise

58:23

that's gotta be there

58:24

what about

58:26

in turn had how many times a week

58:28

resistance extra you hear about the you've met you mentioned

58:30

the in out either to the ten

58:32

thousand steps people are people have other ten thousand

58:35

steps yeah right now mean what what's the is

58:37

there something people can think about

58:38

and a his his age dependent a veteran

58:40

yeah or a i skipped a great

58:42

question i mean is that the origins

58:45

of the of ten thousand steps is also probably

58:47

knew people the words that come from and you're like that's

58:50

a good question i don't a i can mean it's a it's

58:52

a great round number i think that's you know when

58:54

you go back to the history of those bill pedometers

58:57

it was just you know that that tell us a good number

58:59

on it and it's probably true

59:01

you know you the closer you get around six

59:03

seven eight thousand nine thousand test you

59:06

start to see health benefits so i'm not going

59:08

to dismiss that resistance training

59:10

it's a little bit more difficult are the guys

59:12

most of the guidelines you look around the world

59:14

it's saw that there's a recommendation

59:17

for two times a week of strengthening

59:19

activities on my own feeling

59:22

is that it should it should be more than

59:24

recommended it should be a de rigueur part

59:26

of the guidelines like a hundred and sixty minutes

59:29

and i do think two days

59:31

two days is sorted that's the by in level

59:33

i mean if somebody is doing nothing

59:35

and they do one change

59:38

they do too big change i think three

59:40

rigor change for

59:42

on like honor know you're probably starting to

59:45

see the plateau five on like yes

59:47

if it's you're saying six you

59:50

go ah seven you're

59:52

mad but go for it and

59:54

but it's but it's dose response like a lot of things

59:56

right one hundred and fifty minutes is kind

59:58

of where we tap out lot of the benefits

1:00:01

and then you go from there to say double

1:00:03

and three hundred minutes and you can squeeze

1:00:05

a little bit more out of the cloth bet

1:00:07

you've canada lot of benefits with the first

1:00:10

one

1:00:10

what's that you're doing the that one fifty

1:00:13

minutes of strength as evidence that from aerobics

1:00:15

rather was er yes or then when you when you're talking

1:00:17

about let's say you're doing the two days a week

1:00:20

average distance ring what's the duration for

1:00:22

this is it

1:00:23

here's where we climb inside their really

1:00:25

caught a nuanced things and it's sort of like

1:00:27

to read to receive free weights sweetie when scenes

1:00:30

with you sat sweetie rapson and

1:00:32

everything and at in this is actually i think one

1:00:34

of the barriers for a lot of people is that

1:00:36

the the eat it or most people

1:00:38

i say ten thousand steps they're like are

1:00:40

walking i can do that and

1:00:42

then he says weightlifting the like all i

1:00:44

hate going to the gym and you're like okay

1:00:46

well have you ever gonna push up

1:00:49

and they're like yeah but i hate forceps

1:00:51

than most people hate pushups because they

1:00:53

were used as a form of punishment linear kid

1:00:56

at least that's my equally i'm

1:00:58

, you know that you don't need

1:01:00

a gym to do resistance workouts

1:01:03

you can do bodyweight workouts just

1:01:05

about anywhere you can do like an air

1:01:07

squat up and down and eat

1:01:09

you need of weight ah that

1:01:12

you know sets reps for you know

1:01:14

my main point is getting

1:01:17

to do that at least twice a week

1:01:19

word let's say thirty to forty five mins

1:01:21

duration there's a lot

1:01:23

of benefit associated with that with think

1:01:26

three times you can get can little bit more

1:01:28

on but it's about making clear that

1:01:30

the biggest reduction in risk

1:01:33

are non is always going from

1:01:35

nothing to doing some

1:01:37

and not that we should aim

1:01:39

at the you know the smallest are the lowest

1:01:41

bar anything else like that but as we mentioned

1:01:44

arms same before the gonna

1:01:46

camera on the of these of

1:01:49

these of of people that are really

1:01:51

sedentary a population

1:01:53

level of we get everybody to walk for even ten

1:01:55

minutes a day and then maybe they

1:01:57

did in will push off even if it's we can't

1:01:59

do of poor sap let's say a wall push

1:02:01

up and you know i'm ready

1:02:03

when how to walk outside how good they

1:02:05

would feel mental health physical health

1:02:08

and everything and the

1:02:10

population of facts will be pretty substantial

1:02:12

so i'm good

1:02:14

if you enough you're like me and you're like to go

1:02:16

to the gym and you like to lift some weights said

1:02:19

i don't lift heavy weights anymore and think

1:02:21

that sort of a diabolical pursuit

1:02:23

but the stats you're saying go for it on

1:02:25

but i think it's more about getting the gym

1:02:28

the

1:02:29

performing a workout when is pretty high

1:02:31

levels of effort which is that i

1:02:34

i stop prescribing

1:02:36

percentages of your maximal left i just

1:02:38

say left until you're pretty fatigued

1:02:41

at the end and you should

1:02:43

do pretty well

1:02:44

and when you're lifting are

1:02:46

you doing any

1:02:47

the resistance and or strength training

1:02:49

ah you are

1:02:51

also causing muscle protein breakdown

1:02:54

the oven a living yeah that that

1:02:56

the mechanical force the up on

1:02:58

the muffled are increasing protein

1:03:00

synthesis or whatever we we are grown

1:03:03

, great great explanation yeah i mean i said

1:03:05

you know how are while analogy again is to

1:03:07

say that actually exercise physical

1:03:09

exercise and particularly some

1:03:11

forms for weightlifting is a really potent one

1:03:14

turns up the rate at which were pulling bricks

1:03:16

and the while you're creating damage you're creating

1:03:18

at a stress on the muscle on

1:03:21

successful adaptation distresses

1:03:23

the you're able to repair dot damage

1:03:25

replace those damage proteins and

1:03:28

that's the synthesize things and then

1:03:30

he clearly what we're aiming for his you nursery

1:03:33

have damage and then we have synthesis

1:03:35

but now gone up a little bit when we have damage

1:03:37

synthesis and over time you know it's sort

1:03:39

of down up down up down up that the trend

1:03:42

is is the you're getting better and better better

1:03:44

same with a robot exercise i mean it's

1:03:47

yeah i'd say to people like the exercises

1:03:49

great the thin recovery

1:03:52

that we would that's where all the good stuff happens

1:03:55

because we you know as a result

1:03:57

ah were a pair of any damage

1:04:00

recover from the stress and

1:04:02

hopefully recover fully so that were the better

1:04:04

starting point again sometimes

1:04:06

a small changes and and but over time

1:04:09

ah , know people say when i first started

1:04:12

i was so tired and right yeah it's

1:04:14

hard work when you first get started get

1:04:16

past month

1:04:18

few months three months you

1:04:20

know and then

1:04:21

six months later you like and i'm

1:04:23

so much stronger and som et cetera

1:04:25

et cetera on it takes time

1:04:28

and the stress stress

1:04:30

you have to overcome it ah but

1:04:32

the benefits are are martha

1:04:34

there's a recovery d i mean there's

1:04:36

certain like if you're doing the strength training

1:04:38

with see to thirty minutes

1:04:40

one day like it it did that newton

1:04:42

taken ex

1:04:43

the off matter or can you like do it two

1:04:45

days in a row and then recovery that is edges

1:04:49

it again these are the sorts of things

1:04:51

a i think you know when you become

1:04:53

more advanced so now you're going on like

1:04:55

okay i've got three days in the gym a

1:04:57

week of i've got that down no problem and

1:05:00

it becomes you know what more can i do to sort

1:05:02

of maximize what i'm getting out of the workout

1:05:04

that i'm doing a most people

1:05:06

split say a resistance workout

1:05:08

a they'll they'll do they might

1:05:10

pair exercises are the rudimentary

1:05:13

the the most rudimentary wanted to sort of say

1:05:15

there are pushing exercises so dot above

1:05:17

your head there are pulling exercises

1:05:20

or a bicep curl i'm and

1:05:22

then their leg exercises so pushing

1:05:24

pulling legs and you're working

1:05:26

different muscle groups and not three days

1:05:28

a week it gives you at in the muscle has

1:05:30

lots of time to recover on

1:05:33

, people do it really differently the bodybuilding

1:05:35

culture gets into your individual

1:05:37

body parts so today is a bicep day

1:05:39

the next day is a tricep day you know

1:05:41

monday is usually always chest day you're

1:05:44

under the bar do on a bench press and

1:05:46

you work on your legs on work on your lower legs

1:05:49

you work on your upper legs your know all of those are things

1:05:51

that are ways of splitting it

1:05:53

up splitting think a you know

1:05:55

my advice to most people are

1:05:57

is to say you can probably break

1:05:59

most

1:06:01

exercises reasons exercises down

1:06:03

into some pretty basic ones you know

1:06:05

there is a push from ,

1:06:08

your back that's a bench press there's

1:06:10

your shoulder press above your head ah

1:06:12

i'm i'm not a big fan of isolation exercises

1:06:15

but you know squatting upper

1:06:17

leg press if you don't want to squat arm

1:06:20

is really you know those are the three

1:06:22

sort of if you walked away in remember

1:06:25

nothing those are great exercise you don't need

1:06:27

to do too much more ah to

1:06:29

be honest with you but the he branch out

1:06:31

from there on i do think think

1:06:34

people can handle a lot more i

1:06:36

know from my own experience when i was younger

1:06:38

i could do a heck of a lot more and the

1:06:40

recovery came a lot easier now not

1:06:43

so much on and the

1:06:45

goals are different ah my

1:06:47

goal now is your has a twenty year horizon

1:06:50

thirty year horizon ah ,

1:06:52

that that some yeah that's something

1:06:54

i'm like you know how long's a teacher recover

1:06:56

and like water know i took a day off yesterday

1:06:58

on i was okay this protein

1:07:00

help with recovery with mean how much of

1:07:03

a very for example we talked about

1:07:04

the thing

1:07:06

how much is like a know essential amino acids

1:07:08

like that activate i gf one deserves

1:07:10

if one player born muscle repair

1:07:13

the i ig gil good question i mean i

1:07:15

i think is the said you know it's it's in recovery

1:07:17

were all the good stuff happens like the workout

1:07:19

is putting the stress on the muscle in

1:07:22

the bones the joints etc are

1:07:24

and then the recovery part the stresses removed

1:07:26

as like okay now it's repair time recovery

1:07:29

time three hours

1:07:31

rehydrate refuel repair

1:07:33

so you got to get fluid back and if you've lost

1:07:36

that it's primary one

1:07:38

you gotta get fuel back in particularly if

1:07:41

you know the next day or into another workouts

1:07:43

the repair part that's where the protein

1:07:45

comes in on there's a

1:07:47

lot of thoughts that to the regenerate

1:07:50

process also involves me of

1:07:52

hormones going up and everything else

1:07:54

and i think for a large part particularly

1:07:56

when euro when adults

1:07:59

that said that

1:07:59

the non issue most of the restaurant the restorative

1:08:02

process in the recovery process is driven

1:08:05

almost exclusively by macro nutrients

1:08:07

and so on i

1:08:09

gf one of my

1:08:11

yeah are nice to be there on

1:08:13

but it's not a single a tory or inhibitory

1:08:16

a hormone for repair recovery

1:08:18

hm okay let's talk a little bit about mechanisms

1:08:21

and or and a because

1:08:23

there's some there's is definitely some surprises

1:08:25

and interesting you know

1:08:27

yeah finding them i was reading a lot of the

1:08:29

literature sir including up anomaly

1:08:32

yours so

1:08:34

what

1:08:36

the thing is major

1:08:37

role in activating muscle protein synthesis

1:08:40

is through

1:08:42

i'm torn us through and tour very

1:08:44

good advice is yeah yeah

1:08:47

i mean i'm source one of these is it

1:08:49

is you know it's a highly conserved a protein

1:08:51

it says sort of an integrated nexus

1:08:54

of all kinds of anabolic steam as

1:08:56

stimuli including resistance

1:08:58

exercise so or any form of

1:09:00

exercise is actually running through through

1:09:03

and tour lucy and goes through

1:09:05

and tour it's it's just regulation

1:09:08

is involved in all kinds of processes

1:09:10

including cancer and and

1:09:12

and lots of other things so i

1:09:14

has really centrally important role and

1:09:16

integrating all of those anabolic signals

1:09:19

on there are some thoughts now that

1:09:21

they're actually to complexes

1:09:23

of them toward one that sensitive to nutrients

1:09:26

one that's actually more sensitive to

1:09:28

exercise on

1:09:30

and see in one functions a little

1:09:32

bit different than the other that does the ultimate

1:09:35

culmination is this the downstream

1:09:37

signals after you stimulated them

1:09:39

for our to turn on protein

1:09:41

synthesis and all of the regenerative

1:09:44

for anabolic processes

1:09:46

to repair and his dad or

1:09:48

recover from any stress that's been i

1:09:51

expose so yeah

1:09:54

it's it's important protein

1:09:56

we studied a lot we're by no means experts

1:09:58

in at their people here

1:09:59

far better out than i am saw them

1:10:02

to inhibiting

1:10:04

the one like and talk one

1:10:06

which is the nutrients sensitive fresh com

1:10:08

plaque there was something like rapper myosin

1:10:10

deployed effect

1:10:12

apple protein synthesis but not because

1:10:14

there's also and toward to activity going

1:10:16

on if

1:10:17

person is resistance training yeah maybe

1:10:20

does it what is

1:10:21

not as big of a dealer that still

1:10:24

still does

1:10:25

yeah i mean i think like you said you

1:10:27

know the earth the benefits of the resistance

1:10:29

training through probably threw him for to

1:10:32

are are like there seems to get the

1:10:34

protein synthetic response on

1:10:37

with them torque wanna mean that's where the sort

1:10:39

of center layer of the the nutrient

1:10:42

added , goes on top of

1:10:44

persistence training so as

1:10:46

you say ah one sensitive to wrap

1:10:48

my son anyone actually isn't so

1:10:52

you know the more we uncover with this

1:10:54

the more we realize we probably you know

1:10:56

ten years ago we thought we had it figured out now

1:10:58

we're not even close and so now we're beginning

1:11:00

to understand that mechanical stress

1:11:03

from exercise stress from through

1:11:05

a different process the nutrient ah

1:11:08

stimulation of protein synthesis so

1:11:10

you know maybe that's the underpinning mechanism

1:11:13

why a lot of people talk about restricting

1:11:16

protein and not wanting to turn on

1:11:19

the overly or overly turn

1:11:21

on the anabolic side of things and you

1:11:23

know because uncontrolled gross because mouth

1:11:26

cel , that's cancer on

1:11:28

by his i point on to people

1:11:30

are persistent exercise

1:11:33

also activate some tour on an almost

1:11:35

chronic basis of you exercise every day on

1:11:38

and now we're like watch with siblings

1:11:40

read different process so maybe that's why

1:11:42

it's read different on this one if

1:11:44

it's chronically turned up is not so

1:11:46

good

1:11:48

it also goes back to some other

1:11:50

observational data we were talking about

1:11:52

also at a couple hours ago

1:11:54

whenever it was when you're looking

1:11:56

at

1:11:57

protein intake specifically animal pro

1:11:59

in britain plant protein an animal protein and as

1:12:02

you pointed out is higher in essential

1:12:04

mean a lot they are couldn't way seen an

1:12:06

arm you know so you look

1:12:08

at these all cause mortality that has cancer related

1:12:10

mortality and there is definitely conflicting

1:12:13

data forget earth but there is an overall

1:12:15

like there's a lot of studies showing that

1:12:17

there is a low

1:12:18

all cause mortality and a lower cancer related

1:12:20

mortality people that consume plant proteins yes

1:12:23

however when you start to look at

1:12:25

the eat large his observations

1:12:26

that he that have been done

1:12:29

does does the studies that have looked for

1:12:31

any like unhealthy lifestyle factors

1:12:33

am counting factors have found that oh

1:12:36

, people that have no

1:12:38

unhealthy lifestyle factors that are not obese night

1:12:40

sedentary nonsmoking not excessively

1:12:42

drinking alcohol they have a similar

1:12:44

all cause mortality as a plant

1:12:47

eating person so for in again it goes down

1:12:49

to that okay well maybe if someone

1:12:51

is obese and smoking or sedentary

1:12:54

before you start eating lot of protein lot

1:12:57

of doing and worrying about that

1:12:59

like let's get rid of those on how

1:13:01

whaddya factors yeah let's get physically active

1:13:03

pleasure with some some some way yeah

1:13:06

that and the and then in and then

1:13:08

things content

1:13:08

bolland to play so i couldn't agree more

1:13:11

i mean to i think in sort of

1:13:13

the broad check list and and

1:13:15

people say you know so what are you doing

1:13:17

to to each while and i said well i'm

1:13:19

trying to stay at bodyweight

1:13:22

it's you know not excessive on

1:13:25

i way more now than i did when i was seen a thirteen

1:13:27

fourteen no kidding car or and more than

1:13:29

i did when i was twenty three twenty four armed

1:13:32

but but not much more ah

1:13:34

i'm physically active ah i

1:13:36

pay attention to what i eat eighty percent

1:13:38

of the time and people say well what about the other twenty

1:13:41

percent i said that's why i exercise so i'm

1:13:43

i can indulge myself twenty percent of the time

1:13:46

i don't need of the can diet or a new vegetarian

1:13:48

diet that i'd eat less

1:13:51

neat particularly red meat and i use

1:13:53

to ah i eat more fish

1:13:56

i don't need as many

1:13:58

the know under fi rst refined

1:14:01

carbohydrates i don't really have a sweet

1:14:03

tooth so i'm of kind of lucky that way so

1:14:05

i don't feel compelled on on

1:14:07

week in the presence of chocolate you

1:14:09

know so but maybe that's my one indulgence

1:14:11

but i don't smoke never have i

1:14:14

don't drink as much as i used to you know

1:14:16

all of those things and you're going check check check check

1:14:18

and then people go what about intermittent

1:14:21

fasting and i'm like you know what and again

1:14:23

it's of my this is analogy i love

1:14:25

this is did you depth of water a

1:14:27

dip the cloth in the water and you to the first

1:14:30

ring is like you get a lot of water and i'm like

1:14:32

that's maintaining your your your bodyweight am

1:14:34

i the second one is physical activity the

1:14:36

third one is watch what you eat the fourth

1:14:39

one is you know and then you could add subtle

1:14:41

nuances things more on that but

1:14:44

now you're now you're it's only little drops

1:14:46

they're coming out of the cloth that's where

1:14:48

i think a lot of the finer

1:14:51

details the vegan

1:14:53

vs you know omnivorous

1:14:55

die if you judicious about

1:14:57

how you plan your home never tire on

1:15:01

can make a difference yeah if you're smoker

1:15:03

ah

1:15:04

that's a great thing to give up because that a bonafide

1:15:07

a shortened lifespan or poor

1:15:09

quality of life etc but

1:15:11

i understand the power of addiction and particularly

1:15:14

she started early which is when most people

1:15:16

take it up man tough

1:15:18

one tough break so

1:15:20

the way to declarative i think i

1:15:22

think when you said is pretty

1:15:24

pretty pretty fair yeah yeah like most

1:15:26

important thing some broad stroke and the little dropped

1:15:29

sick and amounts yep arms hormones

1:15:31

yeah growth hormone testosterone

1:15:35

india during the sex hormones amir

1:15:37

i'm quite surprised by you know

1:15:40

some of some of the data coming out of your life

1:15:42

yeah that showed

1:15:44

and at maybe you can explain it cause i'm your

1:15:46

explain it better than i do but looking at

1:15:48

what a fact for example growth

1:15:50

hormone has on muscle protein

1:15:52

synthesis yeah yeah so

1:15:56

this this this in his

1:15:58

ear to give you the origins are the chalice

1:15:59

this story we were it we were that

1:16:02

i was early in my my faculty appointment

1:16:05

and , were doing these studies where we were

1:16:07

infusing people with labeled amino

1:16:09

acids to measure the raiders muscle protein

1:16:12

synthesis were measuring these include the

1:16:14

incorporation of these amino acids and

1:16:16

we had people exercising these are mostly

1:16:18

young man

1:16:20

freely admit that were making a push to

1:16:22

do younger women an older women

1:16:24

a middle aged women perry menopausal women

1:16:26

so stay tuned it's it's coming

1:16:29

on and we would send it in

1:16:31

for publication and they said you haven't measured

1:16:33

the you know testosterone growth hormone

1:16:35

and hormone insulin like growth factor and they

1:16:37

go up after exercising their driving

1:16:40

this protein synthetic response in

1:16:42

my training is is training biochemist i'm

1:16:44

not of exercise does the arms of i'm

1:16:47

arms varsity athlete so varsity is in the pairing

1:16:49

in to seem logical to me and

1:16:52

i'd actually worked with you know some people

1:16:54

that we're pretty good with with steroids

1:16:58

biochemistry in , understanding

1:17:00

was that steroid hormone testosterone

1:17:03

that sort of thing slid across membranes bound

1:17:05

to receptor receptor went into the nucleus

1:17:07

modify the expression of jeans jeans

1:17:09

that takes a long time that's not a transitory

1:17:12

you know testosterone zoc they do this

1:17:15

and fifteen minutes later it's back down on

1:17:18

growth hormone the same thing ah

1:17:20

so we thought you know

1:17:22

when his house their sweden need to show

1:17:24

that those hormones are important or

1:17:27

they're not and so that's why would

1:17:29

we don't think we need to measure them and

1:17:32

and it's and journey that we it's taken it's taken

1:17:34

twenty years ah

1:17:36

the about

1:17:38

for phd students couple good post

1:17:40

docs as so it's been a good one lots of

1:17:42

people a chipped in i'm ,

1:17:44

we've we tried very very hard

1:17:47

to show that those those hormones

1:17:49

have an anabolic affects and

1:17:52

we've never been able to see it and we've

1:17:54

manipulated all kinds of experimental

1:17:56

conditions and we just

1:17:58

don't see an impact am

1:18:01

i think the most damning evidence

1:18:03

against testosterone is a big

1:18:06

driver of muscle protein synthesis

1:18:08

is to say you , if you take

1:18:10

men and women and and agreed

1:18:12

like man start out with more muscle mass

1:18:14

and women and you resistance train

1:18:16

them and this is a matter analysis now

1:18:19

i'm a guy named brand roberts did this

1:18:21

one eye and and you you

1:18:23

resistance training relative to what they

1:18:25

started with everybody goes up the same

1:18:27

amount women get the same

1:18:29

amount of muscle growth as muscle growth do that

1:18:31

they had less muscle to start with because you know boys

1:18:34

and girls are like this puberty happens

1:18:36

boys become and

1:18:39

ah , on and

1:18:41

that's the testosterone search but after that

1:18:43

they just sort of state they follow each

1:18:45

other ah so the big

1:18:47

so

1:18:48

that's so important now

1:18:51

this is where people say but steroids work

1:18:53

on my absolutely as so

1:18:55

this is a normal diurnal variation

1:18:58

and testosterone this is

1:19:00

steroids it's about two to three standard

1:19:03

deviations away standard ask the person

1:19:05

is taking and either orally or as an injectable

1:19:08

that it's up

1:19:09

all the time

1:19:11

where's were talking about trans yet fluctuations

1:19:13

in hormones throughout the day if

1:19:15

you take men and they have

1:19:18

they have of prostate cancer they're

1:19:20

often put on a hundred and deprivation therapy

1:19:22

so this they're they're taken from a or

1:19:25

normal testosterone say to that

1:19:28

are a high poco nadil state and

1:19:30

yeah they lose muscle mass they they

1:19:32

they actually it's almost a feminized

1:19:35

and process for these guys but

1:19:37

, good news for the prostate tumors which

1:19:39

is a reproductive hormone driven tumor

1:19:42

a in encino the dirty secret

1:19:45

that we're trying to sort of mm our

1:19:47

lab lots of others are trying to sort of convincing

1:19:49

talk to women particularly around men are pauses

1:19:52

it's not just bomb drops off its

1:19:55

muscle to in that's

1:19:57

the loss of estrogen mediated simulate

1:20:00

protein synthesis so he

1:20:02

, that that's the sort of the testosterone story

1:20:05

and i think it's it's pretty much we can put

1:20:07

down on the bed now i will say

1:20:09

this is there's a lot of people make

1:20:11

a lot of noise and lot of water about

1:20:13

certain supplements that boost testosterone

1:20:16

and do this that and the other in

1:20:18

my in just came from our marriage

1:20:20

and cause sports nice meetings and listen

1:20:22

to a great talk a good friend

1:20:24

of mine eric rawson said you have

1:20:26

this is have case of what's old is new

1:20:28

and

1:20:31

there have been in my

1:20:33

twenty five year career now mcmaster

1:20:36

probably about who doesn't testosterone

1:20:39

boosting supplements that i've seen

1:20:41

com

1:20:42

go and then it seems like we

1:20:44

we just can't get rid of them are like so

1:20:46

there's another he and his two or three hot ones i've

1:20:48

now and i want

1:20:50

name them but let's just say you know i get

1:20:53

the amazon instagram which why should i take

1:20:55

my save your money what

1:20:57

why bother like just get to the gym and

1:20:59

left and , tends to upset

1:21:02

a lot of people are i

1:21:04

do think however if he go and you look back

1:21:06

at at know it was

1:21:08

andor seen die own entrusting die all

1:21:11

it was actually did actually death

1:21:13

it was a hormone precursor to the

1:21:15

i'm having trouble getting my my tongue around here

1:21:18

are it was plant based hormones it was

1:21:21

he et cetera et cetera none of these

1:21:23

say and fenugreek none of these things have worked

1:21:25

it's it again look at

1:21:27

the some to tell a d of the research not

1:21:29

one study not one person are

1:21:32

, about this on a on an

1:21:34

instagram real i think you just need to

1:21:37

step back and see

1:21:39

know ah phillips quote

1:21:41

unquote three rows of supplements taken

1:21:44

from a good dad mentor of my

1:21:47

run mind if it sounds too good to be

1:21:49

true it probably as if

1:21:51

it's too good too be true it's probably band

1:21:54

or you need a big prescription for

1:21:56

it for there may be some exceptions

1:21:58

is rahul number three but very few

1:22:01

so , the growth hormone stories

1:22:03

another one on it and the easiest

1:22:06

way i sort of like to try and explain that to

1:22:08

people is the lack

1:22:10

of growth hormone when you're young

1:22:12

so hypos classical hypos

1:22:14

pituitary isn't leads to shorter

1:22:16

stature

1:22:19

dwarfism ah

1:22:21

those individuals have an amount

1:22:23

of muscle mass this directly proportional to

1:22:25

their stature if you

1:22:27

have hyper pituitary isn't

1:22:30

your a giant ah you've

1:22:32

just tall you'd tall you'd have excessive

1:22:34

muscle mass the you have

1:22:36

it directly proportional to your stature

1:22:39

so growth hormone is a stimulator

1:22:42

simulator of ah

1:22:44

stature

1:22:45

your your height so

1:22:48

it's it's good for bombs it's actually really

1:22:50

good for college and and everybody

1:22:52

goes college in your bone

1:22:54

is actually about forty percent by composition

1:22:57

protein it's not just stick of chalk

1:22:59

there's chalk layer of politeness protein

1:23:01

around it

1:23:03

this may be were college

1:23:05

and has achieved it's sort of notoriety

1:23:07

particularly in the supplemental form for

1:23:09

athletes as it stimulates collage

1:23:12

in as tissue synthesis

1:23:15

and if you think about it so

1:23:17

, take testosterone your

1:23:19

muscles get bigger bigger

1:23:22

they probably get big enough that you can do

1:23:24

ridiculous things in terms of lifting

1:23:26

really heavy weights but to the degree

1:23:29

that you can terrier muscle right off

1:23:31

of the of on and

1:23:33

it happens and so they

1:23:36

were the growth hormone comes in this is my

1:23:38

own personal theory ah is

1:23:40

that it stimulates that collage

1:23:43

and the synth assistance of the tens become

1:23:45

stronger to and least throughout

1:23:47

your muscle there are a collage in this

1:23:49

proteins so that's where growth

1:23:51

hormone is beneficial so we're

1:23:53

in california en vogue the in of

1:23:56

victor balco and say you know how to get the

1:23:58

cream and he had to get the clear not

1:24:00

the steroid hormones and in there and the growth

1:24:02

hormone you need both of them to be a big strong

1:24:05

guy but you know i

1:24:07

both of those hormones are pro

1:24:10

on anabolic can therefore

1:24:12

pero

1:24:13

cancer hormones chronic

1:24:16

elevation to those hormones mess

1:24:18

with a lot of systems that we just

1:24:20

we're we're only beginning to understand so

1:24:23

i'm excessive testosterone

1:24:25

are high levels

1:24:26

great driver of prostate growth

1:24:29

ah excessive growth hormone a great

1:24:31

drivers lots of different tissues

1:24:33

bet ten it's lack in

1:24:35

this is where you've had doctor longo

1:24:37

on the on the show before he shows in

1:24:39

non certain population

1:24:42

so far of dwarves for example

1:24:44

who have who have type of dwarfism

1:24:46

arm and lack of growth hormone receptor

1:24:49

they're actually don't get cancer

1:24:51

so do we really want to mess

1:24:53

with that system is is is my question

1:24:56

and i think they'd tear

1:24:59

you , are showing that they don't have

1:25:01

a particularly huge role at least within the

1:25:03

normal variation is a lot different than

1:25:05

people coming out to the extremes down here

1:25:07

and if you're clinically

1:25:10

low clinically those hormones by all means

1:25:12

the bed for most

1:25:14

the i

1:25:16

stay away from that

1:25:18

you have shown that androgen

1:25:21

receptor

1:25:22

han ten yeah increases

1:25:24

with

1:25:26

training and is correlated

1:25:28

with muscle protein synthesis

1:25:30

the of it don't they understand exactly what

1:25:33

, you think that because the androgen

1:25:36

does testosterone also increase androgen

1:25:38

receptor

1:25:39

so it probably does a little bit

1:25:41

as a sort of a seat forward mechanism but

1:25:43

i think that there's a little bit of a feedback mechanism

1:25:46

the nature of which i'm not entirely sure but

1:25:48

that the eating only get so much androgen

1:25:51

receptor but you're you're entirely

1:25:53

rate in or as he said that the testosterone

1:25:55

or other steroids hormones esters in this while

1:25:58

bind to receptors and

1:26:00

those receptors turn on jeans

1:26:02

and and so the content of the receptors

1:26:04

may be we think anyway ah

1:26:07

and others have shown the same thing the

1:26:09

rate limiting ah action

1:26:11

of where the testosterone and i'd

1:26:14

probably is having any action if it's having

1:26:16

any action at all and the same for estrogen

1:26:19

so so they're so there could be

1:26:21

some and may be other metabolites

1:26:24

the that finding the i though we're

1:26:27

scratch he'll serve for the with the big one said

1:26:29

there's lots of other downstream of

1:26:31

hormones that we're not looking at prefer

1:26:33

well i makes a lot of sense with the extremes

1:26:36

because those what you mean pretty much answered my questions

1:26:38

which for yeah you give you inject

1:26:40

mean a people with the has dropped thrown him now muscle

1:26:43

growth goes up at it's super fuzzy logic geometry

1:26:45

or form on the right you're absolutely superficial

1:26:48

until superficial saw it was yeah so not

1:26:50

so much of the train the an increase that you're getting

1:26:52

from from the exercise

1:26:55

but in this constant

1:26:57

like where it's just

1:26:58

it for like hours and hours an outfit yeah

1:27:00

i'm an end you know it's not like the other

1:27:02

his said the diurnal ranges is so

1:27:05

ridiculously small as as

1:27:07

opposed to you know where steroids are

1:27:09

or where growth hormone administration is

1:27:11

that the comp the comparison of like

1:27:13

normal changes the you know i'm a high

1:27:16

testosterone responder on a low

1:27:18

testosterone are on the high growth hormone

1:27:20

was be no etc it is

1:27:22

not the same as talking about somebody who's

1:27:24

taking and saw to the supplemental hormones

1:27:26

their that they're completely different paradigm see

1:27:29

can't invoked this as

1:27:31

proof of of that if you like

1:27:34

the deficiency and is interesting and

1:27:36

i can see the clinical case for treating

1:27:39

high poker not oh man this they have low testosterone

1:27:42

or kids with you know classic hyper

1:27:44

pituitary isn't to get them to it's

1:27:47

probably not the stature that they would

1:27:49

have if they're completely normal but certainly

1:27:51

not sort some people choose not

1:27:53

to do it some people just say nah that's

1:27:55

that's that's how i was born that's the way this

1:27:58

on i can the fact that but at

1:28:00

the same time you could make a

1:28:02

case the this where i differ

1:28:04

with summer these sort of exile genus of they

1:28:06

call themselves anti aging clinics

1:28:09

is that the anti aging the you get

1:28:11

her as a result for taking of harmonious maybe

1:28:13

at the expense of over stimulation

1:28:16

of anabolic for cell division

1:28:19

cancer etc are to the

1:28:21

degree the it's it's doing more harm

1:28:23

than good am and i think unless

1:28:25

it's closely managed on

1:28:28

you need to be where are you talking about like

1:28:30

hormones

1:28:30

the basement their meat pet what about people are doing

1:28:33

hormone replacement therapy that

1:28:35

are making more what you

1:28:37

are fuzzy logic levels would be any

1:28:39

that's that's the paradigm so is this

1:28:41

is the normal range of testosterone and most

1:28:44

guys they point out that is quite right wide

1:28:46

and it is so you can be just

1:28:48

this side of it or just this side event

1:28:50

and and you're at the low end of normal and

1:28:53

bringing you into the normal

1:28:55

range at that's clinical treatment and

1:28:58

or it's the same for women

1:29:00

and men a pause taking supplemental estrogen

1:29:02

to bring the cells back to where they were pre

1:29:05

menopausal a i understand

1:29:07

that and but that those are closely monitored

1:29:09

clinical situations or bringing

1:29:12

new year with growth hormone injections back

1:29:14

to hear i think were that differences

1:29:17

is you know of the sort of are called the wild

1:29:19

west of these any age and clinics where people

1:29:21

just could take this and there's no

1:29:23

monitoring of what happens over on

1:29:26

it's a it's a physique driven process

1:29:28

and so you know older

1:29:30

guys say look at me now and i'm like that's

1:29:32

great you look great i hope there's nothing

1:29:35

you know

1:29:36

with your prostate or elsewhere that's growing

1:29:38

the ball and i didn't come down to

1:29:41

our lifestyle and physical activity you

1:29:43

, which has he said twenty percent

1:29:45

you don't you're young you're eating young

1:29:48

you're your bad

1:29:49

yeah you're you're about as i mean my idols

1:29:51

yeah they'll say idea and as well as a cheesecake

1:29:53

is okay right hot dog or a ball game

1:29:55

as okay in miami fun minimum

1:29:57

there is a black person

1:29:59

that eating it for every meal every day

1:30:02

right and been so you know again it's

1:30:04

it comes down to i think

1:30:05

also

1:30:06

mina back to some of their observational studies where

1:30:09

you know if you are going to do one on replacement therapy

1:30:11

and it like maybe there's a reason evolutionary

1:30:14

speaking like that

1:30:15

our bodies certain

1:30:16

one of those growth factors and wonder

1:30:18

if maybe because cancer and to discuss up and

1:30:20

so if you're not taking care of the other

1:30:22

factors that can lead to cancer like you

1:30:24

know what exercise is

1:30:27

one of the and best known ways ya it's lower

1:30:29

risk of so many different cancers including

1:30:31

hormonal and yes you know that up is

1:30:33

a new you probably shouldn't be thinking about

1:30:35

women replacement therapy internet figure out the physical

1:30:37

maybe part first right so again

1:30:40

, have inspired yeah great no no

1:30:42

no i think it's a it's a really relevant point

1:30:44

to say that to as you say are

1:30:48

the benefits of exercise never stop

1:30:50

i mean it's it's mean it's almost embarrassing

1:30:52

to talk about how good it is for you are

1:30:54

he talks about cancer yeah thirteen at the

1:30:56

twenty six most common types of cancer

1:30:59

or lower and people who have higher levels

1:31:01

of leisure time physical activity

1:31:04

and so that's not exercise that's

1:31:06

gardening have walking that's like you know

1:31:08

just a general day to day you know not

1:31:11

yeah moving around yet not sitting down

1:31:13

all the time i so

1:31:15

you know and and we were talking before the show

1:31:17

would say yeah i have a colleague

1:31:20

give a shoutout shanghai's just wrote a great book

1:31:23

on on the mental health benefits

1:31:25

of ah of exercise and in

1:31:28

fifteen twenty years ago if he said well

1:31:30

you can he can change the size of your hippocampus

1:31:32

in your brain with exercise

1:31:36

you can

1:31:37

if you get ripped me help out improvements

1:31:40

in new to get improvements in depressive symptoms

1:31:42

anxiety and everything you're almost

1:31:44

of the magnitude similar to people you

1:31:46

know taking pharmaceutical on

1:31:48

in or interventions for those things so it

1:31:51

it's just a win a win win win win

1:31:53

it it's a pill

1:31:55

we everybody will be on it

1:31:57

ever absolutely ah i

1:31:59

kind of when i just

1:31:59

because it's a good transition into the

1:32:02

the saw

1:32:02

the growth hormone the i had has

1:32:04

you know i've i've been around a routine

1:32:07

sonys or say about two thousand and nine

1:32:09

young time see a face that when i was used

1:32:11

to go every day or right so i read

1:32:14

is really really for me it was like my

1:32:16

in grad school it up in ages

1:32:18

i'm going to thought of before i going to lob and

1:32:20

i

1:32:20

really seem to help with my

1:32:22

and variety it helped besides started read

1:32:25

about a of the coming doing on erectus and

1:32:27

i came into the

1:32:27

growth hormone literature

1:32:30

holy crap you can do like two

1:32:32

or three back to backs on backs session separated

1:32:34

by you know five or ten minutes a clean

1:32:37

and you could get up to like a sixteen

1:32:39

fold tracy

1:32:40

yeah elevation and growth hormone

1:32:42

yes

1:32:43

in so at the time

1:32:45

i was thinking oh you know

1:32:47

because i had used to sell my to through

1:32:49

periods of injury

1:32:51

in and when i usually you lose muscle

1:32:53

mass and it was very apparent to me

1:32:55

yeah subject the didn't you hear

1:32:57

that i was not losing muscle mass and

1:32:59

yourself the time i you

1:33:01

know it's like growth hormone as everyone says it up

1:33:04

and anabolic hormone of course yeah

1:33:05

yeah it's you know net protein synthesis

1:33:07

will be increased and turns out i was

1:33:10

wrong about that part

1:33:12

so as a idea i mean i

1:33:14

think the , way to think

1:33:16

about these hormones is is that when we're

1:33:19

kids are and were growing unique

1:33:21

growth hormone to grow you t i d

1:33:23

f one is he is a pro growth factor

1:33:26

once you're finished use your linear and

1:33:29

job sort of broad growth at

1:33:31

these growth at are are

1:33:34

are are mostly in the case of growth

1:33:36

hormone it's actually a fat mobilizing

1:33:38

hormone that said one of it's great side

1:33:40

effects if you're taking exhaustion this growth

1:33:42

hormone you know it's get leaner it

1:33:45

probably doesn't do much for your muscle

1:33:48

ah i do think that there's something

1:33:50

to the heat exposure probably

1:33:52

outside of growth hormone that you

1:33:55

know with the local level were beginning to appreciate

1:33:57

that at the stress of the sauna so

1:33:59

it is what's a thermal stress that

1:34:02

i mean it's sort of recreates quote unquote

1:34:04

mimics some aspects of

1:34:06

exercise and we talked about being a hot

1:34:08

yoga is one of these these great sort of

1:34:10

a not only relaxing therapeutic

1:34:13

but you're physically active you're

1:34:15

stretching muscles but you're doing in the heat

1:34:17

so there's a big thermal stress and your cardiovascular

1:34:20

system absolutely is like

1:34:22

and how we were under were under siege

1:34:24

here you know heart rate goes up everything