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1:01

you. You

1:27

can use to uncover your ancestors'

1:30

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1:32

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1:34

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1:38

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at ancestry.com.au. There could

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be more to your story. Piece

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it together with ancestry. Terms

2:18

apply. Forgotten

2:20

Australia is written and produced by me,

2:22

Michael Adams, in the Blue Mountains of

2:24

New South Wales on land traditionally owned

2:26

by the Darragh and Gundungurra people. I

2:29

pay my respect to Aboriginal elders

2:31

past and present. It's

2:36

a grim day in September 1883 in Ararat Jail

2:39

in Victoria and murderer Robert

2:42

Burns is about to be

2:44

launched into eternity by colonial

2:47

hangman Elijah Uphjohn. In

2:49

just seconds, Burns life will be

2:51

extinguished. His crime expiated, his soul

2:53

sent to heaven or hell and

2:56

his body buried in quicklime in

2:58

an unmarked grave. That should

3:00

be the end of the story but

3:02

it won't be because Robert Burns

3:05

has a confession to make to

3:07

Elijah Uphjohn. So Uphjohn said that

3:09

Burns confessed to him on the

3:12

platform. I've cooked eight

3:14

all together, five in Victoria

3:16

and three in New South Wales

3:18

and now you're going to cook

3:20

me. Whoa. Burns

3:23

reckons he's murdered eight people

3:26

not just the one he's about to swing for.

3:29

Flash forward 140 years and Bendigo

3:31

woman Julie de Bella is using

3:33

ancestry to research her family history

3:36

when she makes an amazing discovery.

3:39

Robert Francis Burns, one of Australia's

3:41

earliest and most prolific serial killers,

3:44

is her great-great-grandfather. Not

3:47

only that but her family tree includes

3:49

the hangman and one of

3:52

the murderer's victims. I'm

3:58

Michael Adams and today I'll be speaking with Julie

4:00

DeBella for this Your Story's

4:02

Forgotten Australia episode. My great-great-grandfather

4:05

was a serial killer. Julie,

4:09

let's start in the little gold rush town

4:11

of Deep Lead in Victoria in January 1882

4:15

with a miner named Harry Wilson making

4:17

a gruesome find. Who is

4:19

it? What's happened? Charles

4:22

Fawkes or blathering

4:24

Charlie. He

4:27

was found in a

4:29

decomposed state without his head

4:33

and his body had been horned and moved

4:37

by cattle and eaten by

4:39

wild cats and dogs. So

4:41

quals and dingoes. Dear

4:44

God, so Charlie was blathering no

4:46

more. No. Poor

4:48

Charlie. Now a naked headless body is terrible

4:51

but a diligent constable named Hillard

4:54

finds a clue that's going to lead

4:56

to the identification of Charlie Fawkes because

4:58

originally he's got no head and he's

5:00

pretty messed up. What's the

5:03

clue that the constable finds? His

5:05

brother and his workmates were able

5:08

to identify him by the coat

5:10

and they remembered when he got

5:13

the pipe hole on it. So from

5:15

a pipe ember he's burned a hole in

5:17

his clothing and that's how he's been identified.

5:20

It's remarkable isn't it when you read these

5:22

old accounts. Like these people had so few

5:24

possessions, so few pieces of clothing, a single

5:27

garment the person would be identifiable from that

5:29

because they would probably wear it all the

5:31

time. So with the

5:33

other victim who I know we'll get to

5:35

later, he was

5:37

identified by his sister because he had

5:39

a muffler, another word for a

5:42

staff and she recognised it because he was going

5:44

to give it to her to wrap the baby

5:46

in. They've identified Charlie Forbes.

5:49

How do they link him to Robert Burns?

5:52

He was the last person

5:54

seen with Charlie and they both

5:56

walked off in the bush together towards deep

5:58

lead. police do

6:00

a really good job of

6:02

backtracking and finding out who Charlie

6:05

was, where he worked and where

6:07

he'd been seen, the last place

6:09

he'd been seen. And

6:12

they tracked it through to a few

6:14

different... They travelled from

6:16

town to town just tramping around

6:18

and drinking and

6:21

so they would go

6:23

to... The police went to inns,

6:26

boarding houses, hotels, general

6:28

stores and made a chain of

6:30

evidence to work out where they'd

6:32

been. I read in

6:35

your wonderful research that Robert

6:37

Burns had also been seen needing

6:39

a grindstone for his axe and had

6:41

made quite a big deal about getting

6:43

his axe nice and sharp. I mean,

6:45

could he have looked more suspicious? No,

6:48

and he had a scratch on his face. He

6:51

went to one of the

6:53

local council supervisors

6:55

to ask for

6:58

work and he

7:00

noted that he was trembling

7:02

quite badly and Burns

7:04

just put that down to being

7:07

out on the drink. But

7:10

the interesting thing that I found

7:13

was supposedly they'd gone out into

7:15

the bush to chop wood. It

7:17

was the middle of summer. So unless

7:19

they were chopping wood to cook on, yeah,

7:21

I'm not really sure why it would have

7:23

been such a big deal going out and

7:26

chopping wood. So Burns and Charlie had

7:28

last been seen together. It didn't look

7:30

good for Burns. They'd come to arrest

7:32

him. Yeah, they

7:35

arrested him at the Rapunya

7:38

Hotel. They got him out of bed and

7:40

then as they were putting him, they called

7:42

it a cab, but I gather it was

7:44

horse and buggy. The

7:46

constable said to him, you're

7:49

being charged with the murder

7:51

of Charlie Forbes. So

7:53

he sort of says, what, Charlie

7:55

Forbes? He's alive. He's up in

7:57

Sydney. He's up in New South

7:59

Wales. All right, well, let's leave 1882 there for

8:01

a moment. Robert

8:04

Burns has said that Charlie Forbes is alive

8:07

and well and up in Sydney. And

8:09

let's flash forward 140 or so years to you, Julie. Who

8:13

are you? Where are you from? And what do

8:15

you do with yourself? I'm from

8:18

Bendigo in the central gold

8:21

field. So, you know, we still got

8:23

that golden triangle thing going. I'm

8:26

an almost retired social

8:28

worker and I'm

8:31

also an author on

8:33

the Sharpie

8:35

subculture or counterculture of the 1960s

8:37

and 1970s. And

8:41

I think that's it. So you're

8:43

interested in history. Writing about the

8:45

Sharpies, I mean, like the Bodgies, they

8:48

were quote unquote menaces to society. Are

8:50

you a bit of a true crime aficionado? Yes.

8:54

And I was also a former Sharpie as well. Oh,

8:57

right. Okay. So you were a

8:59

menace to society yourself. I was a menace

9:01

to society. Right. Well,

9:04

you won't go into your criminal history too

9:06

much. Back in 1882, the

9:08

Victorian police have Robert Burns in custody. But

9:11

a few years ago, why were you on his trail?

9:14

I decided that I wanted to

9:17

work out when each of my

9:20

ancestors arrived in the country.

9:23

And when I got to

9:25

the Burns and sort of

9:27

O'Leary line, I

9:29

saw that both had died

9:31

in 1902 in Brunswick. And

9:35

I thought that that was a bit weird. Like

9:37

what did they die of? Did they get sick?

9:39

Did they have an accident? Or did one die

9:41

of a broken heart after the other died? And

9:45

I didn't have any leads on

9:48

it in ancestry. So

9:50

I used Google and it

9:53

led me to an essay

9:55

written by a member

9:58

of the Mount Ralph Historical It

10:00

was the saw she and she's

10:02

been doing some research and discovered

10:04

that. A burns and

10:06

ah, supposedly another victim. We're

10:08

drinking together at the pins

10:11

her so tell. So.

10:13

In this man's research he had his

10:15

full name. I had it is. Robert

10:17

Henry Bones rather than Robert Francis

10:20

Foods. But when I saw the

10:22

was and he also listed the

10:24

names of all the dates as

10:26

a children's birth on with I

10:28

were born. So. I knew straight

10:30

away that. It was

10:32

him. So the headline he's on. His.

10:35

You looking for your great

10:38

great grandfather? And. All the

10:40

sudden it pops out that just like. Robert.

10:43

Francis Burns. Is.

10:45

A multiple murderer. So you had no idea

10:47

about Robert Burns the to look at all

10:49

before this moment. No. No

10:51

one alive in the family did either. How

10:54

did you feel at that moment when

10:56

you in? Oh, this is definitely my

10:59

ancestor. I still spend about another

11:01

four hours trying to disprove it because I

11:03

didn't want to run around. And to the

11:05

stop signs Paypal this is. This is a

11:07

fact. If I had it wrong yet. So.

11:10

Them. What I did: the two or

11:12

three other people on a sister that

11:14

had had also had him. As

11:16

an air sister and I also had the

11:18

wrong name Robert Henry I said them the

11:21

essay and just said what do you think.

11:24

And. They all came back and confirmed

11:26

that they agreed that that was him. Now.

11:28

Have you used ancestry deny it all

11:31

To simply say the least? When

11:33

you had. Contacted. The

11:35

other people on ancestry and concerned

11:37

and Rican same the yes indeed

11:40

you are the great great granddaughter

11:42

of. Potentially. A serial

11:44

killer? And. He is. How did

11:46

you feel when. It

11:49

is excited but not get are not

11:51

latina in a in a creepy way

11:53

but you know I have a a

11:55

bachelor in criminal justice while so. I

11:58

you know I agree. crimes

12:00

a little bit differently. And

12:04

so I wanted to speak to my

12:07

cousin in America because she spent more time

12:09

with our grandfather. And but I

12:11

had to wait till the time zones

12:13

were right. So I was just waiting

12:16

all night to call her. So

12:18

when the time zones matched up,

12:21

I messaged her and said, can you talk? And

12:23

she said, oh no, not right now. I'm back

12:25

after a walk. Is it important? I said, yes.

12:28

She rang me straight away and I

12:30

told her, oh, what do you mean? It's 140 years. Come on. It

12:34

could have waited a little bit longer.

12:37

No, I couldn't. And so I said

12:39

to her, you know, did you have any

12:42

inkling at all? And she said, no. So

12:44

then she asked her

12:48

mother without disclosing.

12:51

Yeah. I asked

12:53

my dad and

12:56

no, none of them none of them knew

12:58

anything. Wow. So how did they

13:00

feel when you revealed this? Were they kind

13:02

of all as sort of intrigued

13:04

and not sort of overly emotional as you

13:06

were? Dad just kind

13:11

of took it in his stride and

13:13

I'm not sure about my auntie. They've

13:15

both recently gone into care. So

13:17

they've got other things to worry

13:19

about. Yeah, fair enough. What's the

13:21

reaction been like from other family

13:23

members? Have you told everybody?

13:26

No. Tell me why. Because

13:30

some of my relations,

13:34

I doubt very much they'd ever read a

13:36

true crime book or watch a true crime

13:39

show or listen to a

13:41

podcast. And I

13:43

don't feel I have the right to to

13:46

shatter. Yeah. Or you know, even have

13:48

them have to even contemplate it. Fair

13:51

enough. So like I told my brother,

13:54

but we haven't, you know,

13:56

we don't tell the children. You haven't

13:58

made it to you yet. Not

14:00

yet, no. Alright, now let's

14:03

go back to April 1882. The

14:06

Victorian police have arrested Robert Burns for

14:08

the murder of poor old headless Charlie

14:10

Forbes. How did Robert Burns

14:12

react to this? What did he say to the

14:15

cops? Well, it was

14:17

basically just with disbelief and,

14:19

you know, just like, no,

14:21

you know, Charlie's alive.

14:25

And it just said I had

14:27

no reason, you know, I'd have no reason to do

14:29

him in something like that. Did the

14:31

police have a look for Charlie? Yes.

14:36

According to the reports at the time, it

14:38

was one of the biggest, I'll use the

14:40

word manhunt, but it's not quite, but you

14:42

know, wanted person. Fliers

14:46

were delivered to every police station in

14:48

the colony. One

14:51

of the constables rode all around. He

14:53

even came up to Bendigo. They

14:56

went to New South Wales, couldn't find

14:59

him, came back and told Burns. And

15:01

he said, oh, I made a mistake. He's in

15:03

New Zealand. Ah, yeah, that old thing. I

15:06

always get Sydney and New Zealand mixed

15:08

up myself. Yeah, it's the new in

15:10

the new. New South New Zealand. Yeah.

15:13

Of course. Yes. Yeah. The

15:16

detective had to constable had to

15:19

go over by steamer to New

15:22

Zealand. And in

15:24

the end, you know, they couldn't find him. They

15:26

even gave put out a reward of

15:28

I think it was 20 pounds,

15:31

hoping that the children of Stolen

15:34

and Deep Lead would go out

15:36

looking for the head in the

15:38

bush. Oh, wow. Had

15:40

the head ever been found? Not

15:44

really know. It's amazing.

15:46

I found reports of

15:48

three separate heads being found

15:50

in store after

15:53

that. But none of them

15:55

were his. Right. I

15:57

mean, Robert Burns must have been a fairly. convincing

16:02

character for the police to go

16:05

to these lengths or were they just doing their

16:07

due diligence? They were doing due diligence. I really

16:09

don't think they believed him. Okay

16:12

then. They don't have the head. Fingerprinting

16:15

is a decade away at least. DNA is 100 years away. What

16:18

evidence do the police have apart

16:21

from people saying, oh they were together? That's

16:24

pretty much it. So the police have

16:26

got a chain of circumstantial evidence, witnesses

16:28

placing them together, a body that's been

16:30

found and identified as Charlie Forbes, Robert

16:33

Burns giving multiple stories, none of which

16:35

check out. They take him to trial.

16:39

Does the Crown Prosecutor present a good case? I

16:42

think he did the best that he could. It

16:45

was in town in the

16:47

Melbourne Supreme Court at the time. I

16:53

looked at the list of jurors

16:55

and most of them were professionals

16:59

or semi-professionals. So

17:02

I think in the end they just decided

17:05

that the jurors,

17:07

they just couldn't quite be sure

17:09

that it was Charlie because there

17:11

was no head. So they

17:13

gave him the benefit of the doubt. Robert

17:16

Burns got off. Great.

17:19

End of story, is it? He

17:21

walked outside and he was in Swanson Street

17:24

and the detective came up and tapped

17:26

him on the shoulder and said, I'm

17:28

arresting you for the murder of Michael

17:31

Quinlivan. Okay. Twist, plot

17:33

twist. Who's Michael Quinlivan and

17:35

how does this detective know this? When the

17:38

policeman was doing his due diligence,

17:41

he remembered a case from

17:43

Wycliffe, which is

17:47

not far from Dunkell where Burns

17:49

lived. Okay. So

17:51

Michael Quinlivan was another body and he'd

17:54

been found maybe a year before in

17:57

similar circumstances, both.

18:00

Charles Forbes and Michael Quinlivan

18:02

were workmates of Burns.

18:05

They all worked on the railways

18:07

together, they shared tents together. Was

18:09

he headless? And no

18:11

he had his head but it

18:13

had been caved in at the back. Okay.

18:16

And it was in a really remote spot

18:18

and I've actually been out there.

18:20

Oh. Not I haven't found

18:22

the murder plane. Yeah. But it was

18:25

described as Slisweski's

18:27

paddock. So I

18:29

looked it up and Slisweski, I can't say

18:31

the name properly, he had a

18:34

like the mansion in the area. He had

18:36

the rump. And so when

18:38

I went to the, the mansion had an

18:40

open day and I went and had a

18:42

look at it. Fantastic. And you could see

18:44

around that there was just paddocks everywhere but

18:46

there were also lots of gullies. Yeah.

18:49

So apparently the body was found down

18:51

in a gully that, and

18:53

it was quite a long time before it was found. It's

18:56

terrific going to those locations, especially if you

18:58

can kind of go, okay, this hasn't changed

19:00

that much in terms of its wash and

19:02

really get a sense of how remote some

19:04

of these places are sometimes. Yeah.

19:07

Good on you for doing that.

19:09

So he's found, is he dressed?

19:11

Quinlivan? Yeah, he's

19:13

got clothes on. He's been dressed. Yeah, he

19:15

must have had because they found

19:17

the body, couldn't identify him. They

19:20

buried the body as an unknown

19:22

person. Yeah. And the policeman

19:25

had kept the clothes in evidence.

19:29

And so he started thinking,

19:31

I wonder if Burns has

19:33

murdered Michael. So

19:35

he starts investigating it, takes

19:38

the clothes to Michael's sister, Michael's

19:40

wife and two children lived in

19:43

England. So, and

19:46

he was also an itinerant worker. So

19:48

sometimes he would be gone for quite

19:51

a while. But

19:53

he was always in contact with his family. He

19:55

was quite close with them. And

20:00

I believe after the body was

20:03

found, it might

20:05

have been in the news that an

20:07

unidentified body was found. Because around about

20:09

that time, his family started receiving

20:12

letters from Burns, acting as

20:17

if he'd just seen him and

20:19

they'd had a conversation and he was

20:21

going to get slanted to select land.

20:25

So, you know, the trial of keeping

20:28

him alive when that's pretty

20:30

dandy. Yes, that

20:32

was presented at court and I

20:35

actually believe that that was the

20:37

reason because it was so calculated

20:39

they didn't go down the insane route.

20:41

He was remanded to Melbourne for a little

20:44

while and then in,

20:46

I think it was August of 1882,

20:49

he left Old

20:51

Melbourne Jail and went

20:54

by train to Hamilton and

20:57

he was put in Hamilton Jail until

20:59

they were able to have the circuit

21:02

court. They had like 31 witnesses

21:04

describing him being with Quinn Liven. I

21:07

mean, as far as change of evidence

21:09

go, this is pretty solid, isn't it?

21:11

What did the jury say this time?

21:13

Well, the first juror because they were

21:15

all local and I believe once he

21:17

was arrested, obviously they didn't like him

21:19

anymore. But from what I can gather,

21:21

he probably had the gift of the

21:23

gab. He was always

21:25

at the races, he was always drinking,

21:28

you know, he was probably everyone's best

21:30

mate. Yeah. Drinking mate.

21:33

And apparently one of the jurors

21:35

said something to the effect of, I'll

21:37

eat my hat or I'll eat my

21:39

boots before I have

21:42

another man's blood on my hands. So

21:45

the jury had to come out or the foreman

21:47

had to come out and say to the judge,

21:50

I'm really sorry, we can't agree.

21:52

And the judge said, well, can we give you

21:54

any more evidence? And he said, no, it's not

21:56

from lack of evidence. It's because

21:58

we're just not going to. agree. Do

22:01

you think it played into it that

22:03

Burns was 43, he's married, he had,

22:05

was it five children? Five?

22:07

Yeah. Superficially at least, he looks like

22:09

an ordinary decent bloke. Do you think

22:11

they just couldn't believe that, you know,

22:13

this guy who they knew was

22:15

capable of such a thing? Yeah, maybe.

22:18

They haven't been able to return a verdict. That's not

22:20

the same as being acquitted. So did

22:22

they crown decide they would try him again?

22:25

Yes, they did. And in the

22:28

meantime, they'd also reopened a case

22:33

sometime before Burns'

22:36

tent mate that he worked on the

22:38

railway with, was around the Ararat area.

22:40

He became very unwell while they were

22:42

out working. So they helped him

22:45

on the trolley and he was taken back to

22:47

the camp. And then he

22:49

became more and more unwell in his tent

22:51

and he died. And

22:55

the coroner came, Burns was one of

22:57

the witnesses, his brother was

22:59

one of the witnesses and

23:04

another workmate. And the

23:06

coroner said that he died from English

23:08

cholera. And then they

23:11

started to suspect that it was

23:13

he'd been poisoned with arsenic. So

23:17

around about the same time

23:19

that they exhumed Michael

23:21

Quinlivan's grave, they

23:24

also exhumed Francis

23:28

Heenan, Charles or Francis Heenan. I should have

23:30

had my notes with me. They exhumed Mr.

23:34

Heenan's grave and

23:37

the forensic scientist

23:40

was already, but when they opened it,

23:42

the water had got in there, the

23:44

coffin broke open, the head rolled

23:46

out. All they

23:48

could do was scrape up a bit

23:51

of slime and put in a jar.

23:53

And then that was taken by train

23:55

into Melbourne for testing, but it was

23:57

inconclusive. So there wasn't enough evidence. him

24:01

with Hienan's

24:03

murder. Faced with the fact

24:05

that their jar of bodily muck was

24:07

useless to them they really had to

24:10

make this second trial against

24:12

Burns stick didn't they? Yeah

24:15

they just really they just really wanted to get

24:17

it they wanted to get rid of him. And

24:20

what did the jury say this time around? They

24:24

found him guilty. Ah okay

24:27

so it's an automatic death sentence the

24:30

Chief Justice William Stahl is

24:32

presiding he gives you know he's obviously

24:34

going to give Burns a chance to make a

24:36

statement before he pronounces sentence what does Burns have

24:38

to say? Basically he calls

24:40

everybody liars. Maintaining his innocence he's

24:43

not going to confess to anything? No.

24:46

Alright. Didn't confess to anything and

24:50

just singled out all the people that he

24:52

felt were telling lies and why he thought

24:54

they were telling lies. There was a

24:56

petition to save him you've had a look

24:58

at that those materials at the

25:01

Public Records Office? Mm-hmm

25:03

yeah I can't

25:05

read the judges notes

25:08

of evidence because it's just

25:10

like took scratchings it's

25:13

terrible. Yeah. But like I

25:15

picked out a couple of words

25:17

like cold, calculating it was interesting

25:20

that the appeal was

25:22

on some points of law. One

25:24

of them was how

25:26

many jurors had been challenged

25:29

and stood down and

25:32

in the end they ran out of jurors and

25:34

they had to take a juror that was drunk. Oh that's

25:37

not great. No

25:40

so then there was an argument over

25:42

did the judge have the right to

25:44

say well bring him back in. Yeah.

25:46

We got his voice and

25:49

the other one was over some evidence

25:52

I think it was to do with the

25:54

sale of Burns block of

25:56

land. Well maybe it was

25:58

about poison on the train. Anyway,

26:00

there was some evidence that was said at

26:02

the trial and the judge struck it out.

26:05

But he's barrister argued that the jury

26:08

had already heard it and it would

26:10

taint their minds. Right.

26:13

Yeah. But the appeal was rejected on the grounds,

26:15

I guess, that the verdict wouldn't have been changed

26:17

by any of those points. Even

26:19

the drunk jury today would obviously be

26:21

an instant trial. So

26:23

Burns is going to hang at

26:26

Ararat jail. And this is

26:28

where I came across Robert Burns and I

26:30

was researching and writing Hanging Ned Kelly. So

26:32

for listeners who've not read the book, it's

26:34

about the hangman Elijah Uptown who'd hanged Ned

26:36

Kelly in 1880. And

26:38

poor Elijah was a bit of a hopeless drunk and he was still

26:40

in his job in 1883. So it

26:43

was going to fall to him for the

26:45

princely sum of five pounds to do this

26:47

job. Elijah went up to perform the execution

26:49

in Ararat jail. It was only going to

26:51

be witnessed by a small crowd of jailers,

26:53

police officials, reporters, doctors, rather than the

26:55

good old bad old days when thousands

26:57

of people would turn out in Victoria

27:00

to see someone swing. What

27:02

did this crowd see when Robert Burns

27:04

was led pinioned to the scaffold? They

27:07

just saw a man with the

27:09

white cap on his

27:12

forehead ready to be pulled

27:14

down. The

27:16

spectators were on the lower floor and

27:19

the trap was up a

27:22

bit higher. I have been

27:24

to the jail and had a look and

27:27

since then they've actually moved the stairs

27:29

to the other end. And

27:31

the jail is like, is

27:34

modeled on the same principle

27:36

as Pantridge and

27:38

a lot of the other old Bluestone jails. Let's

27:42

leave Burns on the platform hanging

27:44

there, not quite hanging there as

27:46

the case may be and jump back as close

27:48

to the beginning as we can get. What

27:51

have you learned about Robert Burns' background? Where

27:53

did he come from? What had brought him

27:55

to Australia? He came on his own. I

27:58

think it was 1816. How

28:00

old was he then? 20, 22?

28:03

He wasn't very old. And

28:06

then he's missing completely until

28:08

he meets his wife, Ellen,

28:11

in Adelaide. And

28:14

when did they get married? Erm, 68. 1868.

28:18

So this is Ellen, Leary,

28:21

your great-great-grandmother. Now, they

28:23

had five children that survived, otherwise you and

28:25

I would not be talking. Which

28:28

is a weird thing, isn't it? So

28:30

they settled in Victoria. He is

28:32

then supposedly has poisoned Francis

28:34

Heenan in February of 1879, even

28:38

though the police can't prove that. Then in 1880, Elijah

28:42

Uptown does his most infamous work by

28:44

hanging Ned Kelly. November of 1880, this

28:48

is just three days after Ned

28:50

Kelly swings, Robert and Ellen have

28:52

another baby and then they move to the store.

28:56

Your great-grandparent. Er,

28:58

the youngest. When

29:01

was she born? She was born in November of 1880.

29:05

Yes. Right. So the baby

29:07

that they held... So what was her name?

29:10

Ellen Anastasia. So

29:12

Ellen Anastasia is born three days

29:14

after Ned Kelly's hanged. I

29:17

never made that connection. Wow! To

29:20

Robert, who's already, we assume,

29:22

committed at least one murder by poisoning

29:25

his mate. It's quite creepy,

29:27

isn't it? Oh! Great-grandmother

29:55

Ellen's born? To your great-grand a protean?

30:00

great-grandfather Robert who

30:02

by this stage has likely

30:05

killed at least one person. Then

30:07

they moved to Deep Lead in January 1882. They find Headless

30:09

Charlie. Three

30:12

months later they've got Robert Burns. What

30:15

did they police actually think had happened

30:17

between Robert Burns and Charlie Forbes? Did

30:19

they think that it had been a

30:21

fight that had gone wrong? Was it

30:24

premeditated? What was their theory?

30:27

They didn't have a motive

30:29

and so they decided

30:31

that it may have been to do,

30:34

may have been about money and

30:36

possessions. So apparently

30:39

and I read somewhere

30:41

that it was actually called Bobby. Bobby

30:44

Burns. Yeah Bobby

30:46

and Charlie, Bobby and

30:48

Blathering Charlie were out on the

30:50

piss and I

30:53

reckon they ran out of money when they were on their

30:55

binge and they

30:57

pawned his watch, pawn

31:00

Charlie's watch and then they

31:02

spent the money. And then at

31:04

some stage I think Robert went

31:06

back and or Bobby went back

31:09

and got the watch but there

31:11

was a lot of investigation

31:13

into the whole watch

31:15

situation because they were

31:18

making that as the motive whereas

31:21

it really didn't make sense. I

31:23

mean I know when you know

31:25

I suspect that Bobby

31:27

was a blackout drunk. I

31:30

also know that there's

31:32

a condition through my

31:34

family called Warnicke-Korsakov syndrome

31:38

which I don't know

31:40

the full details but it's

31:42

like an advanced alcoholic brain

31:45

dementia. Wow. And their alcohol

31:47

seeking behaviour is just

31:50

from the minute they get up it's with my drink,

31:52

with my drink, with my drink, with my drink. So

31:55

if Bobby had that you

31:58

know it's like you know he

32:01

would have gone to any lengths to get a drink.

32:05

But anyway, so the police and

32:07

the witnesses, they all talked about

32:09

that. But I think in the

32:11

end it just came down to he was the

32:14

last person seen with him. And

32:16

there was enough smoke, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire,

32:18

that kind of thing. Yeah. How

32:20

much did you find out about this trial

32:23

and what were your sources? I

32:26

went to PROS or Public

32:28

Records Office of Victoria. Actually

32:31

I didn't go there. I got online, found

32:33

out what files I needed

32:35

and I ordered them and they digitised them

32:37

and sent them to me. Fantastic.

32:40

But of course in doing that, then

32:42

they're also available to the public as

32:44

well. Which is great. I mean they're

32:46

always available to the public but someone

32:48

had to pay to get them digitised.

32:51

Yeah. I do that too

32:53

with National Archives files. I pay to have

32:55

them digitised and I think well it's giving

32:58

something back because then they're available to everybody

33:00

forever which is great when they're 100 page

33:02

files or whatever. Those PROS

33:04

capital case files are amazing aren't

33:07

they? Because you see original letters,

33:09

memos, all sorts of material. What did

33:11

you find in there? I think

33:13

the two things that really stood out

33:16

to me was

33:19

the antecedents. So his priors

33:22

and the

33:25

letter that he wrote

33:27

from Ararat jail I think

33:29

it was. It was either

33:31

Ararat or Hamilton. I can't remember

33:33

where he was remanded between being

33:36

found guilty and being sentenced. But

33:38

it was described in the media

33:40

as a long rambling letter and

33:43

I liked seeing that

33:45

and seeing his signature. With

33:48

the long rambling letter what

33:50

stood out for you and what did you feel as you

33:52

read it? Just

33:58

let's play maybe. everybody else. Right.

34:02

There was no acknowledgement at all of any

34:04

failings that he had. Not,

34:07

I think so. I'd have to reread it

34:10

with that in mind, but no. Make

34:12

you feel that he was likely

34:15

guilty? Yeah,

34:21

he didn't say he wasn't guilty, but

34:23

at the same time, he

34:25

didn't really come up with any defence

34:28

to counter everything that was said against

34:30

him, other than to

34:32

say they were lying. When you say his

34:35

aunties didn't, are these his prior convictions

34:37

or offences? Yeah. What

34:39

had they on him before this?

34:43

Nothing. Just pretty much

34:45

bad character and

34:47

a little bit of drunken disorderly. So

34:50

reading that first trial evidence, did you

34:52

think the jury were expected to convict?

34:56

Yeah, I think so. So it

34:58

was a surprise when they didn't convict, but

35:00

more of a surprise when Burns was re-arrested

35:02

immediately and put on time again. Yeah.

35:05

I think when I read all of that, I

35:08

was still processing it myself. And

35:13

part of the reason why I wanted to go through it

35:15

was, did he do it or didn't he? And

35:18

what about family? I was more

35:21

interested in Alan and the

35:24

children, to be honest, than

35:26

him. And I did wonder

35:28

about his motives. But that's

35:31

the criminology side of me. When you

35:33

look at Robert's photograph, which is available in

35:35

the Public Records Office of Victoria's files, what

35:37

do you think when you look at him?

35:41

When I look into his eyes, I

35:44

can actually see a lot of

35:46

sadness. And I

35:49

also feel there's some kind of

35:51

awful trauma in

35:53

his background. And that's what I'd like to

35:55

get to the bottom of, but it's really

35:58

hard to go back that far. in

36:01

Ireland. It is for sure. But

36:03

yes. Did he have a brutal father?

36:05

The chances are that he

36:07

probably did. Trauma and brutality

36:10

were almost the regular upbringings

36:12

for people at this time

36:14

subjected to war and criminal

36:16

violence and poverty and famine and so

36:18

on. I mean obviously it

36:20

wasn't recognised at the time that this was shaping

36:22

them. I mean not everyone

36:25

that goes through trauma becomes a serial killer.

36:28

Of course not. In July 1883,

36:31

a phrenologist weighed in on Bobby

36:34

Burns writing Hanging Ned

36:36

Kelly delving into this pseudoscience and how

36:38

it led to the waxworks was

36:41

one of the most colourful and intriguing angles

36:43

to colonial Victoria. What

36:45

did this head reader have to say about Burns?

36:48

I think he was cherry

36:50

picking and trying to make

36:52

it look like Burns' head

36:54

fit the criminal profile. The

36:57

other thing too is there was another article

36:59

that called Burns a phrenologist

37:02

and they were watching him when they

37:05

were doing the jury selection and

37:07

they were describing his darting eyes

37:10

and the calculating way he was

37:12

choosing the people and

37:14

yeah and I thought that was very

37:16

interesting. So he was an amateur bumpologist

37:20

as they called them, scanning the

37:22

bumps of the jury's heads to

37:24

work out which people

37:26

would be more likely to acquit

37:29

him. Yeah. It worked the

37:31

first time perhaps. Yeah and

37:33

then the other weird thing I found when I was

37:36

looking at Trove, at some stage

37:40

Victoria Police, they sent a whole lot

37:42

of files over to Professor, I think

37:44

it was Lombosco, overseas

37:48

for him to do a phrenological

37:50

study on some of

37:53

the criminals including Ned Kelly. Yeah,

37:55

yeah, yeah it was still even though it had

37:57

been pretty much discredited by the 1880s. nationally.

38:01

Victoria in particular was still

38:03

loving the phrenology. That's

38:05

because we had all the criminals in the

38:08

convicts. Also they were hanging

38:10

a lot of people and hanging like phrenologists

38:12

love nothing better than getting their hands on

38:14

a nice fresh head and the

38:16

way to get a nice fresh head was to

38:18

hang someone and Victoria was still hanging people a

38:20

lot more than they were hanging people in the

38:22

UK and even in New South Wales. So I

38:24

think that had something to do with it.

38:27

That makes complete sense. Per

38:29

capita in the 1850s, Victoria was hanging more

38:31

people than anywhere else in the world. They

38:34

were right into it and that's when

38:36

phrenology really took root in Victoria because

38:38

the phrenologists had this

38:40

endless supply of nice fresh criminal

38:43

heads to run their

38:45

fingers over and feel the bumps and

38:47

then make casts out of and of

38:49

course then the phrenologist so here turned

38:52

that into his sideline business, the waxworks

38:54

which became the chamber of horrors. So

38:56

it was a nice little industry there.

38:58

So Burns didn't get a reprieve. I love

39:01

that you got the executive councils

39:03

sign off on that. You've actually

39:05

got the document there including Graham

39:07

Berry, the premier who also denied

39:10

Ned Kelly clemency. So Burns

39:12

was due to hang on the 25th

39:14

of September at Ararat. Had

39:16

Burns confessed at any point? No,

39:19

unless he'd confessed to

39:21

his priest, the

39:24

spiritual advisor. But I

39:26

think it was actually in, I think I may

39:28

have got this information from you that

39:31

the priests used to just

39:34

make them concentrate on

39:36

their going to the afterlife.

39:39

They did yeah. That was what they

39:41

said. Focus on eternity, nothing else matters now.

39:44

Yeah, so the priest may have known

39:46

something and he wouldn't

39:49

let Burns do a speech from

39:52

the gallows. One way or the

39:54

other. One way or

39:56

the other. There's a lot of

39:59

kind of allusion to

40:01

things that he wrote, but

40:04

most of the ones that there were,

40:06

it was just thanking his solicitors and

40:09

the people that were nice to him.

40:11

Now, speaking of people who are nice to

40:13

him, his wife Ellen, did she come visit?

40:15

Did she stand by him? I mean, it's

40:17

a big thing that your husband and father

40:20

of your five kids are about to swing.

40:22

What was the story there? She

40:24

went and saw him in Melbourne when

40:27

he was on remand and they gave them

40:29

some private time together. I don't

40:32

know that she went to see him in Hamilton,

40:35

but it was a long way for her to

40:37

get there from Stahl with

40:39

five children, but she did go and

40:41

see him when he

40:44

was in Ararat. And when

40:47

she was in there, apparently

40:50

she was very vocal and

40:52

called them all sorts of names.

40:57

And the press were a bit like, oh, you know, she

40:59

shouldn't have done that. And, you know,

41:01

I can completely imagine her, you know,

41:04

imagine someone doing that. Elijah

41:06

Upjohn, the hangman, came up on the train to

41:08

get ready. And in his case, that meant staying

41:10

in the jail and trying not to go out

41:12

and get drunk at least this time. On the

41:15

25th of September, 1883, Robert Burns, aged

41:19

43, father of five children,

41:22

married to Ellen, your great, great

41:24

grandmother, goes to the scaffold.

41:27

Now, Elijah Upjohn could be a little bit

41:29

slipshod with his work. He was not trained.

41:31

He was not very good. He was also

41:33

pretty new to it. He'd only done, I

41:36

think, three executions, including Ned Kelly.

41:39

How did he cope this morning? Well,

41:41

supposedly he was shaking

41:44

and trembling and

41:48

he didn't get the slip knot

41:50

in the right spot. So from

41:52

what I understand, the

41:55

ropes that we see when

41:57

there's a hanging with that big knot in

41:59

it, isn't what they used.

42:02

They had a leather eyelet

42:04

on the end of the rope and

42:07

it went through it and so then

42:09

it just pulled tight. But apparently

42:11

he had that part where it joined

42:13

in the wrong spot,

42:17

which meant that he probably would have

42:19

strangled to death rather than be hung,

42:21

like broken

42:23

neck. And so I

42:26

think it was the water, no, the

42:29

governor, superintendent, he reached over

42:31

and adjusted it. And

42:35

it almost sounds like he must have

42:37

not, like I'm

42:39

probably reading too much into it, but to me

42:41

it sounds kind of like he pushed up John

42:43

out of the way. And later on up John

42:45

was said to say, I was

42:47

trembling because of how I have a

42:50

natural infirmity. But he didn't say

42:52

what that was. He would actually claim

42:54

to have a natural infirmity

42:58

on other occasions as well. But yeah,

43:00

I agree. It was much more likely

43:03

that it was alcoholism because it hadn't

43:05

been detected in the 60 years

43:07

previously in any of the known records and he had

43:09

been a convict. So it might well

43:11

have popped up there or in his previous

43:14

prison record. I think he was drinking, you

43:16

know, and that's again, quite

43:18

understandable given the job that he'd

43:20

taken on in desperation hanging

43:22

and flogging people. Did Burns die on

43:24

the rope quickly and

43:26

cleanly? Yeah. From memory, they said his

43:28

knees jerked and he was, you know,

43:31

dead when he hit the, you

43:33

know, when the rope reached its end.

43:36

And the, at the time

43:39

the legislation was that the body had

43:41

to hang for one hour and

43:44

they locked the doors and locked everybody

43:46

in there with the body. And

43:48

so I've been in the jail and I've

43:50

looked where the scaffold is and

43:53

I've stood underneath it and

43:55

the staircase has been moved.

43:57

If you put the staircase back, I actually.

44:00

believe the body would have been hanging

44:02

in right in that stairwell at the

44:04

bottom of the step. So

44:07

many people wanted to get access to these private

44:09

executions and they would do whatever they could to

44:11

get in there and see it but

44:13

then when they did like a lot of

44:15

them were absolutely horrified and then they were

44:17

stuck in this room with corpse for an

44:20

hour before it was cut

44:22

down. Yeah. Now being

44:24

cut down wasn't the end

44:26

for murderers in colonial Victoria

44:29

so he was given

44:31

the phrenological examination as was

44:33

the practice at the time

44:35

then he was buried in quicklime in

44:38

a murderer's grave. That should

44:40

have been the end of Robert Burns

44:42

but it wasn't was it? No. Why

44:44

was that? What had he allegedly said to

44:47

Up John up there on the platform? So

44:49

Up John said that Burns confessed

44:51

to him on the platform. I've

44:54

cooked eight all together, five

44:57

in Victoria and three in New

44:59

South Wales and now you're going

45:01

to cook me. Whoa.

45:03

So he's confessing to eight murders

45:05

in total including I guess

45:07

the one he's being hanged for, the

45:09

one he was acquitted on, the

45:12

poisoning that they couldn't pin on

45:14

him and then five more besides.

45:17

Yes. He was prolific. Did

45:19

the authorities believe

45:21

Up John? No. Nobody

45:23

believed Up John. They

45:26

said he made it up for

45:28

notoriety. Yeah. The reporter

45:31

that was there that didn't hear it

45:33

was most put out and you know

45:35

just said it couldn't have happened. What's

45:38

interesting is that the governor of

45:40

Melbourne Jail John Buckley

45:42

Castillo reporting on

45:44

a 1872 hanging he compared

45:46

what the journalist wrote standing

45:49

down below about the guy

45:51

on the platform being really calm and

45:54

bold and all the rest of it and

45:56

he said they can't see what I can

45:58

see they can't hear what I can hear

46:00

because I'm right there and he said the guy was

46:03

much afraid and trembling. So a journalist

46:05

down below saying that you know

46:07

Bobby Burns hadn't said anything, quite

46:09

likely just couldn't see or hear what was

46:12

going on. Yeah, well

46:15

I believe one of the

46:17

jail officials said no, he would

46:20

not have had a chance to speak

46:22

without us hearing. But up

46:24

John said the officials

46:27

were busy doing the bits that they had

46:29

to do and the priest was

46:31

administering the last rites. And

46:33

also up John's his job once the noose

46:35

is in place is to lower the cap

46:38

which means he's got to have his hands

46:40

on the guy's head and be that close.

46:42

So if anyone was going

46:44

to hear something said softly or quietly it would

46:46

be him. And I actually I'm

46:48

not sure whether it was when he was pinioning him or

46:51

you know tying his hands

46:53

behind his back. Yeah it was

46:55

one of those stages but the

46:57

officials all said no, that

46:59

it couldn't possibly have happened. Now

47:02

you have an interesting theory about how

47:04

up John how both things might have

47:06

been true in the sense that up John had

47:08

heard it but he

47:10

hadn't heard from Burns at that

47:12

time. So I love this idea could

47:14

you tell me what your theory is? Okay

47:17

so one thing when I

47:19

read through it and a while

47:21

ago I did a bit of research on all

47:23

of the hangman because I found them all fascinating.

47:26

And so everyone

47:29

was saying couldn't be true but

47:31

up John actually did an affidavit

47:33

to say it was and

47:35

I don't know why but I

47:37

actually believe up John was quite a truthful man.

47:39

Me too. He'd spent a lot

47:42

of his time working as a night

47:44

man in Ballarat which is

47:46

you know collecting people's poo. He'd had small

47:48

businesses. I've read his letters to counsel. He

47:50

was quite an erudite fellow and I do

47:52

agree that I don't think he was someone

47:55

who would just make this up for no

47:57

reason. I mean he didn't really stand to

47:59

gain anything. from it, that's for sure. No.

48:02

And what do you think? So he's stuck to

48:04

his guns. He wrote an affidavit. He kind of

48:06

like almost gave a press conference, didn't he? I

48:09

think so, yeah. But then

48:11

someone interviewed one of

48:13

the maintenance groundskeepers at

48:15

the Ararat jail. And

48:20

this person said that Upjohn

48:23

had actually told him that the

48:25

night before the hanging. Right, so he

48:28

couldn't have said it. He couldn't have learned it on

48:30

the day of the execution. No,

48:32

and apparently it's word

48:34

for word. So how was it

48:37

possible then for Upjohn to have gleaned this?

48:40

Well, I knew that Upjohn had a criminal

48:43

history and I know

48:45

there's a jail grapevine. And

48:47

I knew that Robert had been in, remanded

48:51

in Melbourne and was probably at Old

48:53

Melbourne jail. So then I went looking

48:55

to see if they were

48:58

in there at the same time or

49:00

something like that. So

49:03

what I did find was Robert

49:05

left Old Melbourne jail to

49:08

be sent to Hamilton in

49:11

August, 1882, I think it was. Upjohn

49:17

went into prison, sorry,

49:19

went into Old Melbourne jail middle

49:22

of September for obscene exposure

49:24

to two women in Coburg.

49:28

Everyone was following this case. It was

49:31

huge. If you're looking in Trove, there's

49:33

over 600 entries. And

49:37

so Upjohn would have known about

49:40

Burns. So he would have

49:42

likely been thinking to himself, there's

49:44

a good chance I'm gonna hang this man. And

49:48

I know I would have done my due diligence

49:50

if I was in the jail and I would

49:52

have asked around the

49:54

other prisoners. And I

49:56

don't know what Upjohn's reputation was

49:58

in the jail. did they think he

50:00

was a snitch? Did they think he was a

50:02

lag because he was the hangman? I don't

50:05

know. But you know, he may

50:07

have spoken to someone that

50:10

said that, you know, that was

50:12

what Burns had said. So, you

50:14

know, maybe Burns was big noting

50:17

himself in the jail. And

50:21

I think that if that was the case,

50:24

that up John felt a duty to let

50:27

everyone know that Burns actually

50:29

deserved to be hung. Right.

50:31

So we don't

50:33

really know whether Burns had said it

50:35

or not, or whether up to it,

50:37

heard it directly or not. But

50:40

what did they do in terms of

50:42

investigating his claims? Not

50:44

look, it doesn't seem like there was

50:47

a real lot. I think the police

50:49

probably thought there was no point investing

50:52

more resources into the man who was

50:54

already dead. Not like you could hang him again.

50:56

No. And because there were

51:00

so many unidentified

51:04

bodies found out in the bush, because, you know,

51:06

there was a lot of men that came out

51:08

here on their own with no, no family. So

51:11

what did one of the journalists from the Herald do?

51:14

One of them did some investigation.

51:16

I'm not sure where he got his

51:18

information from. But the headline

51:21

was Burns's confession

51:24

sustained. Now

51:26

these days, the actual list of

51:28

supposed victims, I mean, it reads

51:30

from in my estimation,

51:33

quite likely the as in

51:35

the MOs are pretty similar to

51:38

fairly speculative. But

51:40

at the time from the Herald, it

51:42

was agreed that Burns had killed many

51:46

if not all of these eight people. Like

51:50

for one that they were

51:52

pretty sure that he did

51:54

it was pretty sure it was

51:56

another headless body naked body they found

51:58

in Wagga Wagga. And

52:01

apparently he, they

52:03

believe he had been working up there at the

52:05

time. The locals remembered

52:07

him, his picture, the

52:10

public can remember him and

52:12

the railway

52:14

contractor, they were doing

52:16

the cuttings in the railway line. He said,

52:19

yes, he worked for me, but

52:22

he didn't have the payroll sheets anymore.

52:24

Right. So there was

52:26

no actual real evidence that he'd been

52:28

there. Yeah. But the, the

52:30

MO was the same. But even after Burns

52:32

was executed, there was still a bunch of

52:35

people being found headless in the bush. What

52:37

is absolutely astounding in addition to

52:39

you finding via ancestry that

52:42

you're related to Robert

52:44

Burns is you've also discovered you're

52:46

related to Elijah Uption and to

52:48

one of the victims. I mean,

52:50

this is crazy. Yeah,

52:52

through marriage. Okay. Yeah.

52:56

It's very married here. That's like six

52:58

degrees of separation over 140 years. It's quite,

53:00

quite crazy. Uption

53:04

is someone on my mother's side. Yeah.

53:07

So like, you know, a great,

53:09

great aunt married someone in his

53:11

family and I'm also

53:14

related by marriage through

53:16

my father's side to

53:19

the victim, Michael Quinlivan. You

53:21

got it. That is absolutely incredible. So how

53:24

has all of this left you feeling? It's

53:28

still a bit bewildered. I

53:30

can understand that. Now you've

53:32

compiled a wonderful 300 page

53:35

collection of archival materials. What do you

53:37

intend to do with that, Julie? So

53:40

I think what I'm going to do

53:42

is maybe pretty much leave it in

53:44

the format that it's in, in the

53:46

chronological order, and get

53:48

permission to use all the, all

53:50

the bits and just publish it as it is. Because

53:54

I'm sure there's other people out there

53:56

that just like to do a deep

53:58

dive research into a particular area. subject

54:01

and this they can do this without having to

54:03

do all the trawling through the search

54:06

engines. Fantastic well let me

54:08

know when it's available and I will let

54:10

everybody know. Julie thank

54:12

you so much. I'm

54:16

Michael Adams and this has been forgotten

54:18

Australia. I'll be back with a new episode

54:20

very soon. As always thanks

54:23

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