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bluenile.com. A lot of Forgotten

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Australia episodes follow the lives of our

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wartime heroes. From nursing sister

0:36

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0:38

after the sinking of the Centaur,

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to RAAF pilot Len Fuller, who

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performed that miracle landing of two

0:44

planes after a mid-air collision. To

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tell such stories, I rely on records

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found on ancestry.com.au. These

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are the very same resources that

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you can use to uncover your

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ancestors' lives during wartime. Whether

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they were serving military I'm

1:04

always amazed by the discoveries I

1:06

make on ancestry.com.are you. From.

1:08

Enlistment records complete with photos

1:10

and signatures to personal correspondence

1:12

that off his incredible insights.

1:15

Such finds really bring the past to

1:17

live. With. Over forty billion

1:19

records ancestry as the world's

1:21

largest online collection of such

1:23

resources. New records are being

1:25

added all the time, so

1:27

fresh discoveries are always possible.

1:30

To. Experience ancestry for yourself. Why not

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take advantage of a free to

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a trial. Start. Exploring your

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family's history now at

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together with Ancestry. Terms.

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Apply. Forgotten

1:48

Astray or is written and produced by May

1:50

Michael Adams in the Blue Mountains of New

1:52

South Wales on land traditionally owned by The

1:54

Dark and Gun and Got People. I

1:57

pay my respects to aboriginal elders past

1:59

and. Prison. Every episode

2:01

of Forgotten Australia is the result

2:04

of weeks or even months of

2:06

research, writings, recording and production so

2:08

until midnight on working on new

2:10

episodes. Your listening pleasure and

2:12

in line with the season seen

2:14

as murders shocked Australia I'm releasing

2:16

two of my favorite three part

2:18

is dealing with very bad men

2:20

who the trials of death and

2:22

destruction in their whites. If. You're

2:24

an Apple or Patriot on support. I

2:27

still have full immediate and ad free

2:29

access to all installments. This.

2:31

Episode includes graphic descriptions of violence

2:33

and references to mental illness and

2:35

a suicide mission. Discretion is advised.

2:41

It's just before midday on Sunday.

2:43

the sisters April Nineteen, Thirty Six,

2:45

and the overnight rail service from Sydney

2:47

steaming in to Melbourne Spencer Street

2:49

Station. It's been a long

2:51

journey well over twelve hours including changing

2:54

trains at the border to to the

2:56

states different gauges and everyone aboard came

2:58

to collect your luggage and get home

3:00

or to the hotels. One.

3:03

Of the first off, the train is the

3:05

second class passenger ticketed as Miss Williams. She.

3:08

Slender about five six with short

3:10

ginger hair beneath a red straw

3:12

hat. Dismiss. Williams has hazel

3:14

eyes behind spectacles and freckles on

3:16

her long, bronzed face. She.

3:18

Weighs a gray will and cardigan jacket,

3:21

gray frock, brown stockings and black shoes

3:23

and she's traveling light was just a

3:25

black handbags and a single suitcase. Give

3:27

her a quick loops and Miss Williams might

3:29

seem like an ordinary young lady traveler. Not.

3:32

You get much of a chance to see her because

3:34

she's hurrying out of the station to the taxi rank.

3:37

Cabdriver: George Simpson Caesar coming and

3:39

he's in food for a second Straight

3:41

off he knows this is a man

3:43

posing as a woman. Up close

3:45

you can see he has a few days

3:47

be growth. But. The drive. It doesn't

3:49

say anything. The. Passenger gets in the

3:52

back, shuts the door, and says in a

3:54

low hoarse voice that he wants to go

3:56

to the Victoria Coffee Palace. Located.

3:58

On Little Cone Straits the. This is one

4:00

of the city's most popular and best

4:02

known residential hotels. Mister Simpson, start

4:05

his car and a cab wins. It's way

4:07

through the city. H to

4:09

their own a phase affair, but Mr.

4:11

Simpson does think he's getting more and

4:13

more strange passengers these days. The

4:16

cab driver has no idea who is

4:18

actually got and he's back says double

4:20

murder of heard that cope it was

4:22

just caught Another lucky break. A

4:24

city cabbies is not gonna take a cross

4:26

dresser directly to the cops station. On.

4:32

Michael Adams and this is part to

4:35

have Forgotten Astride Episodes Nightmare on The

4:37

Not Trained. Patrice

4:39

coming later in the wake. But

4:41

if you'd like to hear it

4:43

now, become a supporter by going

4:45

to patreon.com Forward/forgotten Australia and this

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links also in show Notes: Supporters

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get ad free access to all

4:51

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including an episode shoutout. Supporting.

4:56

Only costs as you bucks a month now.

4:58

uses money to fund research. That means I

5:00

can bring these stories to you with no

5:02

stein left unturned. What?

5:07

Makes him and capable of committing murder

5:09

is like those on the Bundaberg not

5:11

trained. They seem to be

5:14

something intrinsically wrong with her. The coated.

5:16

Today. Would call him a sociopath

5:19

That is a person is predisposed

5:21

to extreme anti social or criminal

5:23

behavior, often coupled with a lack

5:25

of moral responsibility or any sort

5:28

of social conscience. That.

5:30

Pretty much sums up her coated.

5:33

But. Was he born that way? Or was he

5:35

bread that way? Nature. Or

5:37

nurture. In. Her to cope

5:39

it's case is evidence. it was a bit of both.

5:43

To. Understand what site this kill us? We need to

5:45

take a look at his family. Had

5:51

his father was Abraham Carpet. He

5:53

was born in Cairo, Egypt on

5:55

Valentine's Day Sabri Eighty Ninety Eight.

5:58

abrahams family was jewish and they appeared

6:00

to have emigrated to Australia around 1894. From

6:04

1909, Abraham worked as a salesman

6:06

clerk for Lasseter's, which was one

6:08

of Sydney's best known retail stores.

6:13

Around this time, though it's not clear exactly when,

6:16

he married a woman who'd been born Mary Josephine

6:18

Fitzgerald in Ipswich Queensland in 1885.

6:23

Mary already had a daughter from her previous marriage and

6:25

it's likely she was a widow. Her

6:28

first child with Abraham was a boy, born on

6:30

the 24th of October 1912 at Lady Bowen Hospital

6:33

in Brisbane. They named their

6:36

son Herbert Alvedia Coppert. By

6:40

July of 1915, Abraham and Mary and

6:42

baby Herbert were living in Fitzroy in

6:44

Melbourne. He was working as

6:46

a milk cart driver when he signed up that

6:48

month for the AIF. It was

6:51

a brave move, the horrors of Gallipoli by

6:53

then were well known. A

6:56

photo from November 1915, just

6:58

before Abraham embarked for Egypt,

7:00

is held in the Australian

7:02

War Memorial's Dodge Collection. It

7:05

shows him in uniform standing in front of

7:07

a tent backdrop. He's with Mary,

7:09

his wife, an attractive dark-haired woman who

7:11

then was about four months pregnant with

7:13

their second child. Standing

7:16

beside her is a girl of about

7:18

eight, presumably this is her daughter from

7:20

her first marriage. Mary, who's

7:22

seated, holds the hand of their little son

7:24

Herbert, who's dressed in white. The

7:26

little boy couldn't keep still because while his

7:29

family's faces are clear in this photo, his

7:31

is a blur of movement. Abraham

7:35

Coppert's 1915 enlistment describes him as

7:38

having sallow skin, brown eyes and

7:40

black hair. While he

7:42

claimed to be a natural born British

7:44

citizen, he was also a Jewish-Egyptian man

7:47

at a time when anti-Semitism was prevalent

7:49

and North Africans were often reviled as

7:51

being unclean. Abraham's appearance, his

7:53

faith, ethnicity and his name might have

7:55

seen him copped some abuse from other

7:57

soldiers, particularly when they arrived in Alexandria.

8:00

in March 1916 on their way

8:02

to Marseille. We don't know

8:04

for sure but as we'll hear Abraham

8:06

tried to anglicise himself. Lance

8:09

Corporal Coppert was wounded in action

8:11

in France in mid-August 1916. He

8:14

suffered gunshot wounds to the left thigh and

8:16

right forearm and some sort of bullet or

8:18

blast damage to his eyes. His right eye

8:20

would droop as a result of these wounds.

8:23

Repatriated to Australia Abraham received a medical

8:25

discharge in June of 1917. In his

8:27

absence in April of the

8:30

previous year Mary who is now living in

8:32

Middle Park had given birth to their daughter

8:34

Phyllis. A month after

8:36

his return to Australia Abraham applied to

8:38

the Commonwealth Department of Defense for employment

8:40

as a temporary clerk. In the

8:43

field for previous employment he listed his six

8:45

years with lasseters up in Sydney, a position

8:47

he claimed he'd left in order to enlist.

8:50

This form which is in his military

8:53

file included his bosses reference which said

8:55

he was quote honest sober and habits

8:57

punctual in attendance and performed his work

8:59

to our satisfaction. Nevertheless

9:01

Abraham's application was rejected.

9:04

In December of 1917 he

9:06

reenlisted in the AIF but

9:09

on his second enlistment form he now

9:11

claimed he'd been born in Melbourne rather

9:13

than in Cairo. He also

9:15

now claimed his regular occupation was

9:17

optician. I found no evidence

9:19

that this was true. What is

9:21

contained in his military file is a January 1918

9:24

note from a superior certifying

9:26

Abraham quote has had drops in his eyes

9:29

today which unfit him for office duties for

9:31

the rest of the day. That

9:34

same month January 1918 Abraham signed

9:37

a statutory declaration saying that his 1915

9:39

enlistment had incorrectly listed

9:43

his occupation as milk cart driver when he

9:45

was in fact an optician. Now

9:47

mistakes were made on attestation papers but

9:49

it seems a pretty wild error to

9:51

mix up these two jobs. This

9:54

is speculative but receiving eye treatment might

9:56

have given Abraham an idea for a

9:58

new career. Maybe talking

10:00

to his optician led to him learning that all

10:02

you had to do to work in this field

10:04

was simply call yourself an eye specialist. In

10:07

Victoria in 1918, the optician

10:10

profession was entirely unregulated. As

10:13

we've heard, Abraham's file nowhere mentioned

10:15

he'd been an optician previously. Had

10:17

it been true, he surely would have listed

10:20

this on his job application for the defence

10:22

department just six months earlier. But

10:24

now, thanks to his second enlistment form

10:27

and that stat deck, Abraham had an

10:29

official military file recording him as an

10:31

optician. Four

10:33

months later, in May 1918, Abraham

10:35

requested discharge from the army, quote,

10:37

owing to entering inter negotiations for

10:40

a private business. Around

10:42

this time, he received a Commonwealth loan

10:44

as an ex-serviceman and set himself up

10:46

as an optician at 281 Collins Street

10:49

in Melbourne. Abraham was

10:51

assured of an income. That was because

10:53

he'd won the military contract to supply

10:55

all spectacles, artificial eyes and such as

10:57

needed by soldiers in the state of

10:59

Victoria until the end of the year.

11:02

After those six months were up, his

11:04

contract would be renewed for another year.

11:08

Abraham used this fact in his fairly

11:10

extensive newspaper advertising, in which he was

11:13

able to promote himself as, quote, sole

11:15

optician to all military hospitals. In

11:18

August 1918, Table Talk magazine carried

11:20

an editorial item that was likely

11:22

a paid notice. Promoting

11:24

Abraham, it read, quote, to

11:26

those suffering from troubles of the eye who

11:29

wish to put their patriotism into practice, the

11:31

opportunity is now at hand. The

11:33

article went on to list his active service

11:36

and the wounds he'd suffered. But

11:38

it also added this, quote, previous

11:40

to joining the AIF, he was in charge

11:42

of the optical department of Copard & Co

11:44

of Sydney and New Zealand. I've

11:47

not found any evidence that such a business

11:49

existed. Abraham was

11:51

soon running larger ads, complete with

11:53

photos of the latest Cryptop, invisible

11:55

double-sided lenses. He claimed

11:58

to have passed his examination and said he

12:00

was a man member of the Victorian Optical

12:02

Association. But as another

12:04

optician made clear in one of

12:06

his ads, only FVOAs, that was

12:08

Fellows of the Association, had actually

12:10

passed exams set by the board.

12:13

At this time there were numerous complaints

12:15

from qualified opticians who said chunky operators

12:18

were sullying the reputation of the profession,

12:20

particularly by sending canvases out into the

12:22

streets to drum up business from the

12:25

unwary. Whatever

12:28

his qualifications and skills, Abraham was

12:30

going from strength to strength. He

12:33

also anglicised and rebranded himself

12:35

as Sydney Scott, a

12:37

name that sounded far more Collins

12:39

Street than Abraham Coppert. By

12:42

August 1919, Abraham, aka Sydney, had

12:44

set up a second office in

12:47

Footscray. Yet soon after this

12:49

his ads no longer made the military optician

12:51

claim. This might have had something

12:53

to do with the development reported in the age in

12:55

October of 1919. Quote,

12:58

Among those who have recently returned from

13:01

England is Sergeant B. Nathan, who was

13:03

on active service for four years. While

13:06

in London he gained the highest English

13:08

optical diploma, FSMC, was made a fellow

13:10

of the Institute of Phalmic Opticians and

13:13

a freeman of the City of London.

13:16

Abraham Coppert lost his contract to

13:18

this better qualified newcomer. By

13:21

then he and his wife had another

13:23

daughter they named Gabrielle. Abraham

13:26

continued working as an optician until February of

13:28

1920. It's not

13:30

unreasonable to speculate his business was largely

13:33

built on his military contract and that

13:35

getting private clients depended upon that status.

13:39

In the past five years, Cairo born

13:41

Jew Abraham Coppert had served his country

13:43

with gallantry, raised himself up

13:46

from clerk and milk driver to

13:48

an anglicised medical man with a

13:50

prestigious military appointment and private city

13:52

and suburban offices. But all

13:54

of that was gone in the blink of an eye. In

13:57

March 1920 Abraham ran a much

13:59

smaller ad in the Arguses

14:01

for Sale classifieds. It read,

14:04

Rolltop desk, light oak, 4

14:06

foot 6 inches, particulars, Sydney

14:08

Scott, 281 Collins Street. Abraham

14:12

slash Sydney was selling up and

14:14

clearing out. Not just out

14:17

of his business, but out of his home.

14:19

This desertion left Mary with three

14:21

small children. She had to

14:23

live with the shame of her husband's action

14:25

and without maintenance payments. Where

14:28

had Abraham gone? If Mary

14:30

had been in Sydney six months later

14:32

and perusing the Herald's classifieds, she might

14:35

have noticed this advertisement. Lady

14:38

Canvas' must be business getters,

14:40

experience preferred for optical firm

14:43

Sydney Scott Optician Daking House,

14:45

Rawson Place. But

14:47

Mary Coppett didn't know her husband was setting

14:49

up as a dubious eye doctor in Sydney.

14:52

It seems likely she thought he'd crossed the

14:54

Tasman to start a new life. That's

14:56

because in 1922, a Melbourne

14:58

based person placed an ad in

15:01

the New Zealand Police Gazette that

15:03

began, quote, Enquiries are requested for

15:05

a Coppett alias Sydney Scott. It

15:08

went on to describe him and said he might

15:10

be working as an optician in New Zealand. The

15:13

Commonwealth government didn't seem to be able to find him

15:15

either, which is likely why in 1923 it was recommended

15:17

that the balance

15:19

of his servicemen's loan be written off. Abraham

15:23

Coppett's desertion caused a lot of grief.

15:26

Mary would change her surname to Colbert

15:28

and she'd describe herself as a war

15:30

widow. Herbert, then seven,

15:32

was, unlike his little sisters, old

15:34

enough to remember his father and

15:36

he was most deeply affected by

15:39

this abandonment. In May of 1924,

15:42

the struggling family was living in St

15:44

Kilda. Herbert, now aged 11,

15:47

ran away with a seven-year-old mate. The

15:49

boys were found a few days later

15:51

wandering around Healesville, some 40 miles northeast

15:54

of home. As the

15:56

Healesville and Yarra Glen Guardian reported, quote, On

15:58

being questioned, the boys stated that they had

16:01

run away from their homes on Monday

16:03

and roamed Melbourne until Wednesday when they

16:05

jumped the Healesville train at Princess Bridge.

16:08

One seat of Herbert's future career had

16:10

already been sown. Five

16:12

months later, another one had sprouted. In

16:15

October 1924, Herbert and

16:17

another boy were arrested for stealing a bicycle

16:19

in St Kilda. A month

16:21

later, Herbert was arrested again for stealing property

16:23

and money from a woman who lived in

16:26

his neighbourhood. It

16:28

was later to say he didn't think theft

16:30

was wrong because quote, others have more than

16:32

I have. It had been claimed

16:34

that at this time Herbert was living in

16:36

poverty, that his mother couldn't control him and

16:38

he'd been left to run wild in the

16:40

streets. That was very likely

16:42

true. Around 1926, when

16:45

Herbert was 14, he was confined to

16:47

a boy's reformatory. There, he

16:50

was found to be indulging in auto

16:52

sexual practices, that is, masturbation, which at

16:54

the time was considered to be a

16:56

habit that would send a lad both

16:59

bad and mad. Lecturers

17:01

at the reformatory told the inmates that if they

17:03

abused themselves, they were going to end up in

17:06

lunatic asylums. This was a turning

17:08

point in Herbert's life. From then

17:10

on, he lived in fear of going mad.

17:13

Or so he'd say. Masturbation

17:15

wasn't going to lead to mental illness, but

17:18

there was something else that might have been a

17:20

factor, though it was only revealed a few years

17:22

later. In 1932,

17:24

Herbert's mother Mary suffered a cerebral

17:27

hemorrhage that resulted in some right

17:29

side paralysis. In

17:31

mid 1935, now living in Sydney,

17:33

Mary was admitted to the state

17:35

hospital at Mewington suffering mental illness.

17:38

She refused food, threw meals at

17:40

nurses, spattered everyone and refused to

17:43

speak. Mary was hysterical,

17:45

laughed maniacally and tried to hang

17:47

herself. She was

17:49

believed to be suffering from organic dementia.

17:52

Mary was sent to the Darlinghurst reception

17:54

centre, which was prelude to being committed

17:56

to an asylum, but she was rescued

17:58

by her oldest daughter. Herbert's stepsister

18:00

who lived in Sydney and who vowed to

18:02

care for her. Despite evidence

18:05

it was related to her stroke,

18:07

Mary's condition would still raise the

18:09

possibility that Herbert had a hereditary

18:11

disposition to mental illness, which combined

18:13

with the emotional upheaval at his

18:15

father's abandonment had concocted his criminal

18:18

personality. After he was

18:20

released from the reformatory, Herbert worked as a

18:22

boundary rider in country Victoria for 18 months.

18:25

He was a decent horseman and he liked

18:28

the outdoors, but on several occasions he

18:30

got into trouble for cruelty to animals.

18:33

Why did he do such things? A

18:35

prominent Queensland psychiatrist was to say

18:37

that Herbert had unconscious sadistic tendencies

18:39

that he couldn't control. Maybe

18:42

that was the case, but there was

18:44

also strong evidence that he'd planned for violence.

18:47

While Herbert's childhood railway wanderings and

18:50

larcenies were youthful blueprints for his

18:52

later crimes, his dangerous criminal evolution

18:54

revealed itself in June 1930 in

18:57

a fashion that made papers all

18:59

over Australia. Returning to Melbourne

19:02

from the country, that month he went on

19:04

a hectic crime spree that saw him break

19:06

into six houses in St Kilda and Corfield.

19:09

He stole whatever cash was to hand and

19:11

whatever he could carry away to sell. All

19:13

up, Herbert's haul was valued at about £100. On

19:17

his seventh job, at the start of July,

19:20

he stole property worth £3 and

19:22

this included an axe. Herbert

19:24

took the weapon to his next break-in on the

19:26

night of the 3rd of July. He

19:28

was busy ransacking drawers in a house

19:30

in Corfield when a neighbouring father and

19:32

son spotted him through the windows. The

19:35

father came to the front door and demanded to

19:37

know what he was doing. As

19:39

the son testified, quote, Colbert raised the axe

19:41

and struck him on the head with it,

19:43

knocking him to the floor. The

19:46

son then belted Herbert to the ground and held

19:48

him until the police came. Herbert,

19:50

aged 17, faced seven housebreaking and

19:52

stealing charges. But despite hitting a

19:55

man in the head with an

19:57

axe, he wasn't charged with attempted

19:59

murder. or even with simple

20:01

assault. If you

20:03

feel like playing amateur psychologist there was of

20:05

course the fact that Herbert had used possibly

20:08

deadly force on an older father figure. His

20:10

defense counsel at trial did not pursue this

20:12

angle. Instead they pleaded leniency saying Herbert had

20:14

been in the care of the children's welfare

20:17

department and that he'd gone to the country

20:19

to work as a boundary writer. He'd

20:22

come back to Melbourne and only committed the crimes

20:24

to get money to return to the country. This

20:27

of course was utter nonsense. A

20:29

train fair to the country was a pittance. He'd

20:31

stolen goods valued at a hundred pounds. As

20:34

he'd later say Herbert committed crimes for the

20:37

thrill of it as much as for any

20:39

real material gain. At

20:41

his trial Herbert's lawyer claimed the lads mother

20:43

was a poor war widow and that the

20:45

child welfare department was willing to take him

20:47

back into their care. But the

20:49

magistrate wasn't having it. The age

20:51

paraphrased him. It was not

20:54

only ridiculous but quite impossible to think he

20:56

could release a young man like the accused

20:58

on a bond. It would be simply an

21:00

invitation to other youths similarly inclined to start

21:03

off an orgy of crime. He would

21:05

order accused to be detained in a

21:07

reformatory prison during the governor's pleasure. Herbert

21:10

was tried and convicted and went to

21:12

prison under his assumed name of Herbert

21:14

Talbot. His prison file which you can

21:16

see at the Patreon image gallery for

21:18

this episode described him as 5-6 and

21:21

of medium build. His birth

21:23

date was incorrectly given as being a

21:25

year earlier. In reality he wasn't

21:27

yet 18. Herbert's

21:29

mugshot showed a lad whose longish face

21:31

was speckled with freckles. His

21:33

mask-selled ginger hair, hazel eyes and full

21:35

lips gave him a sullenly handsome look.

21:38

Herbert had a reputation for being a dapper

21:40

dresser. In the full-length photo in the police

21:42

file his clothes appeared to be of good

21:44

quality and his trousers still bore the mark

21:46

of where they'd been neatly ironed. Herbert's

21:49

file recorded him as being able to

21:51

read and write which was true despite

21:53

his erratic education and childhood and this

21:55

would have later significance. Despite

21:58

his string of crimes Herbert wasn't in for

22:00

long. When he got out he went

22:02

to Adelaide. By July 1932 under the

22:04

alias Herbert Cole

22:06

he was listed in the South Australian

22:08

Police Gazette as being wanted for a

22:10

series of housebreaking offences. His physical

22:12

description included the fact he was missing

22:15

his upper front teeth and this too

22:17

would feature in his later misadventures. By

22:20

the time the cops were after Herbert in

22:22

South Australia he'd already crossed back into Victoria.

22:25

Caught stealing a bike at Backus Marsh

22:27

he gave his real surname of Copert

22:29

likely in the hope he wouldn't be

22:31

connected with his previous serious conviction under

22:33

Colbert. July 1932

22:35

was the height of the Great Depression and Herbert

22:37

used this to his advantage. In court

22:40

he claimed to have tramped down from Sydney.

22:42

He'd been on the track that is looking

22:44

for work for the past three months. Stealing

22:46

the bike he said was a spur-of-the-moment mistake.

22:48

He'd only wanted to get to Ballarat to

22:50

look for a job. Using

22:52

his real name, admitting the offence, offering

22:55

an explanation and contrition had the calculated

22:57

effect and the magistrate knocked the charge

22:59

back to simple larceny. Herbert

23:02

went free on a 12-month 50

23:04

pound good behaviour bond. Seeking a

23:06

new start Herbert went to New South Wales.

23:09

His luck as a criminal wasn't any better

23:11

there. At the end of

23:13

November he broke into a house in

23:15

Newcastle and pawned rings and jewellery. Did

23:18

he actually want to get caught? It's not

23:20

possible to say but he seemed almost

23:22

incapable of getting away with anything at

23:24

all. Arrested by the Sydney

23:26

police he pleaded guilty to three charges.

23:29

For some reason he claimed to be a

23:31

schoolteacher. Perhaps he hoped it had

23:34

spelled leniency. But as the

23:36

Sydney Morning Herald reported two days before Christmas

23:38

quote, Copert was described by

23:40

the police as an interstate wanderer who'd

23:42

been responsible for a series of robberies

23:44

in the eastern suburbs. Herbert

23:46

got 18 months on each charge

23:49

but these would be served concurrently and

23:51

on a prison farm at Goulburn. Even

23:54

so in February of 1933 he

23:57

faced an additional breaking and entering charge and

23:59

was sentenced to to two years. Nevertheless,

24:02

Herbert was out and up in Brisbane

24:04

by July 1934. That month, he

24:08

spied a house he thought looked like a good prospect.

24:11

Entering the garage, he slipped off his shoes so

24:13

he'd make less noise when he got inside the

24:15

house. But instead of burgling,

24:17

Herbert was busted. A police

24:20

constable had been staking out the place, not

24:22

to catch this petty thief from down south,

24:24

but to protect one of the state's most

24:26

prominent men. In the worst

24:29

luck possible, Herbert had chosen as

24:31

his target the home of Queensland

24:33

Supreme Court Justice, Harrowood Henchman. His

24:35

honour had recently been the target of

24:37

numerous threats and annoyances, hence

24:39

the surveillance. Herbert tried to

24:42

claim he'd only been looking for a drink of

24:44

water and then had stopped to admire the Justice's

24:46

car in the garage. But it

24:48

was pretty hard to explain why he had

24:50

gloves and a torch and a knife and

24:52

no shoes on. Once

24:54

Herbert's rap sheet was revealed, he clammed up.

24:57

As he actually hadn't had time to

25:00

commit the burglary, he was only convicted

25:02

of being on the premises for unlawful

25:04

purposes and was sentenced to six months.

25:07

When he was released near the end of

25:10

the year, Herbert headed down to Southport and

25:12

there he set himself up as a hotel

25:14

barber. This wasn't someone who

25:16

cut hair for guests. A

25:18

hotel barber was a sneak thief who'd

25:20

trimmed guests of their possessions by breaking

25:23

into their rooms. In the early

25:25

hours of New Year's Day 1935, Herbert raided a man's room at

25:29

the Pacific Hotel. By the

25:31

time he was busted for that offence,

25:33

about two weeks later, Herbert had already

25:36

been arrested for another burglary and received

25:38

a six-month sentence. So now he

25:40

got another two months on top of that. Herbert

25:43

Coppet was certainly no master

25:46

criminal. When he was released, he

25:48

headed to Mount Isa. There, in

25:50

January 1936, he was

25:52

involved in an utterly bizarre affair. Learning

25:55

that the landlord of his boarding house was selling

25:57

sly grog, Herbert struck a deal to act as

26:00

a police informant with the local cops. If

26:03

the man was convicted, he'd be fined £100

26:06

and Herbert was supposedly going to pocket half

26:08

of that for his fizz-gig services. Herbert

26:11

bought illicit beer from the man using marked

26:13

coins and then handed the booze over to

26:15

the cops and awaited his chance to testify.

26:18

But in court, the accused counsel forced

26:21

Herbert to admit to some of his

26:23

past convictions and that immediately undermined his

26:25

credibility as a witness. Then

26:28

Herbert elaborated to explain how he'd pretended

26:30

to be drunk and got himself arrested

26:32

recently. In the police cell,

26:34

he'd smashed two teeth out of his top

26:36

dentures. Once released, he'd

26:38

gone to a solicitor and sworn a statement

26:40

saying he'd been the victim of police brutality.

26:43

This letter was then sent to the

26:45

supposedly offending comfortable. Herbert

26:47

hadn't intended to press charges or even

26:50

blackmail anyone. So

26:52

what was he up to? This

26:54

was seemingly a ploy to give him more

26:56

cred with local crooks and stir them to

26:58

agitation against the cops. Herbert

27:01

claimed the police were in on it. They

27:03

denied any involvement. As I

27:05

said, it was all very strange. The

27:08

magistrate said it reflected very badly on the

27:10

police at Mount Isa and then he dismissed

27:12

the sly grogg case. So

27:14

Herbert wouldn't get his fee for being a snitch.

27:17

Moreover, the courtroom revelations made him

27:19

persona non grata with Mount Isa's

27:22

cops and its crimes. Herbert

27:25

moved on to Cairns. There, he

27:27

checked into a hotel under a false

27:29

name and set about barbering rooms. On

27:32

the 22nd of February 1936, one

27:35

of his scores was a Seasons Rail Pass

27:37

in the name of John Thorpe. Now

27:40

Herbert could travel anywhere in the state he

27:42

wanted for free. And that

27:44

was what he did, hotel barbering as he went.

27:47

Cairns to Rockhampton to Yapoon, back to

27:49

Rockhampton, then to Maribara and next up

27:51

to Pialba. He stayed in

27:54

places under the name of John Thorpe and

27:56

told people he was a travelling salesman for

27:58

Johnson and Johnson's baby powder. On

28:00

the 27th of March he was back at Maribara. Next

28:03

he went down to Gimpy where he tried to barber

28:05

a hotel but nearly got caught. So

28:07

he moved on to Maruchidor, then to Nambor,

28:10

then to Kouroi and then back to Gimpy.

28:13

He arrived in Gimpy at 11pm on the

28:15

night of the 1st of April 1936. That

28:19

was when Herbert Coppet made a spur of

28:21

the moment decision to try a new caper. He'd

28:24

barber the first class sleeping car on

28:26

the Bundaberg overnight train. But

28:28

being in a confined space on a moving

28:30

train brought more risks than a hotel room.

28:33

So, near Gimpy station he stole an

28:35

18 inch tyre lever from a truck.

28:38

At 12.55am on the 2nd of April

28:41

he presented John Thorpe's season pass to

28:43

the Gimpy railway ticket clerk and paid

28:45

the extra fare needed to board car

28:48

997. While

28:50

he'd been allocated birth 6, which

28:52

was opposite where Frank Costello slumbered,

28:55

considerate conductor Tom Boyes put Herbert

28:57

Coppet in birth number 10. As

29:00

it was opposite an empty birth it'd be

29:02

quieter and offer more privacy. Herbert

29:05

was surprised that there were only two passengers in

29:07

the carriage. He'd have slimmer pickings than

29:09

he'd hoped for. One of the

29:11

men, the one back in birth 16, had

29:13

been awake and seen him enter the carriage.

29:16

So Herbert would have to wait a while before he set

29:18

about his work. In birth

29:20

10, Herbert slipped off his shoes. He

29:23

took off his coat and shirt and decided to rest

29:25

a while on the bunk. His

29:27

plan was to wait a few stops and then

29:29

he'd get up and barber the sleeping passengers. After

29:32

that he'd be gone in the night and get

29:34

a train back to Piaoba. But

29:37

rather than bide his time for a few

29:39

stations, the sneak thief dozed off and when

29:42

he woke up it was quarter past 5.

29:45

The train was now less than an hour from Brisbane.

29:54

The train's always listening is available on Amazon Music for

29:56

all the music plus top podcasts included with your Prime

29:58

membership. Ads shouldn't be the skin of the train. In car

30:15

997, the unluckiest of

30:18

stars had aligned. Herbert

30:21

Coppert's random bouncing around the state had landed

30:23

him at Gimpy in time to get on

30:25

this train. If he

30:27

hadn't fallen asleep, he would have done his

30:29

thieving and been away before conducted tomboys came

30:32

into the sleeping car to wake the passengers.

30:35

Frank Casello had been meant to get

30:37

an earlier train. If he had,

30:39

he wouldn't be in birth 8. Harold

30:41

Spearing's cable repair job for the PMG might

30:44

have been done half a day earlier or

30:46

half a day later. Either would

30:48

have meant he wasn't in birth 16. The

30:51

three other men who'd been booked on the

30:53

car had taken yesterday's train. If

30:56

they were in their allocated births, Herbert might have

30:58

gone about his work earlier, he might have woken

31:00

up a passenger who'd give the alarm to

31:02

others or he might have been spooked out of

31:04

doing anything at all. But

31:07

instead of any of that, Herbert Coppert

31:09

was awake and in car 997 with

31:11

sleeping Harold Spearing and

31:13

Frank Casello. He still

31:15

had time to barber them and escape at

31:17

a dark suburban station before the train pulled

31:19

into Brisbane. Herbert checked

31:21

the rear vestibule to make sure the conductor

31:23

wasn't in the carriage. Then

31:26

he went forward to birth 8, knelt

31:28

down, put his head and hands through

31:30

the curtains and started gently rifling through

31:32

Frank Casello's bag. What

31:34

Herbert didn't know was that conducted tomboys

31:36

was in the carriages front vestibule. Now

31:39

he came through the door and he saw Herbert.

31:42

The conductor called out, what are you doing there?

31:45

In a flash, Herbert grabbed the tyre lever

31:47

from atop his bunk and ran at the

31:49

conductor. He hit him across

31:51

the jaw and tomboys fell. The

31:54

conductor tried to get up as Herbert

31:56

rained down, blow after blow, until tomboys

31:58

was unconscious in a blow. bloody heap

32:00

in the corridor. Herbert

32:02

looked around and saw Frank Castello sitting up

32:04

in his bunk looking at him. He

32:07

smashed him in the fire with the tire iron and

32:09

Castello fell back on his bunk. While

32:11

dazed he managed to raise a hand,

32:13

seemingly reaching for the emergency cord. Herbert

32:16

smashed the hand and then hit

32:18

him again and again until Castello

32:20

didn't move anymore. There

32:23

was only one more passenger. Herbert

32:25

decided he may as well finish him off. The

32:28

man had seen him enter the carriage so maybe

32:30

he'd be able to tell the police something. Harold

32:33

Spearing was still asleep when Herbert hit him

32:35

for the first time. Spearing

32:38

awoke, raised his hand and called,

32:40

oh, Herbert hit him again and again.

32:43

His victim was still alive and struggling when the

32:45

train stopped at Bald Hills. No

32:47

one heard anything over the engine and the steam and

32:50

the brakes. Soon the train

32:52

was moving again. Herbert

32:54

Copet was in a carriage with one dead man

32:56

and two who were as good as dead. The

32:59

man on the floor, conducted tomboys, was 57

33:01

years old. The

33:04

exact age as Herbert's long missing father.

33:06

His role on the train was a paternal

33:09

one and Herbert had interacted with him. When

33:11

Herbert ran at him and hit him repeatedly he

33:14

wasn't lashing out at some nameless and faceless figure.

33:17

The men he'd hit in the bunks were also much

33:19

older than he was. From

33:21

their psychology aside, what was certain was

33:23

that by killing Harold Spearing and Frank

33:26

Costello he'd condemned two women to live

33:28

lives of grief like his mother and

33:30

he'd robbed six small children of their

33:33

fathers just as he'd been robbed of

33:35

his. At

33:39

the overnight Bundaberg train pass stations Herbert

33:42

went to work. He rifled

33:44

the bunks and clothes of the passengers. Herbert

33:47

took £5 that he found on Spearing and

33:49

also took the man's train ticket. Under

33:51

Costello's pillow he found £17 and

33:54

some gold sleeve links. He also took his

33:56

watch and a boat ticket. bother

34:00

searching in the conductors pockets because he didn't think

34:02

he'd have any money. Herbert

34:04

wasn't able to search as thoroughly as he would have liked

34:06

because there was just so much blood. He

34:09

went to the rear basin and washed his hands. When

34:11

he went to put on his shirt and coat he saw

34:13

he had blood on his trousers and on his singlet. He

34:16

went into spearing luggage and took out one of

34:18

the man's suits. But what he

34:20

missed was the matching vest. Herbert

34:23

put on this oversized suit and grabbed

34:25

spearing's grey felt hat because his own

34:27

Panama wouldn't match the outfit. In

34:30

spearing's trousers pocket he found a watch and

34:32

chain. Herbert needed something to

34:34

carry away his bloody clothes. So

34:36

he grabbed spearing's leather attaché case, not

34:39

realising it had the PMG initials on it. He

34:42

emptied its contents out onto the bloody floor

34:44

and stuffed his own stained clothes into the

34:46

case. As a final touch,

34:48

Herbert stole the conductor's diagram, the one

34:50

that showed who was sleeping where. Despite

34:54

this the police might not know that there had

34:56

been a third man named John Thorpe in the

34:58

carriage. Herbert knew that he had been seen at

35:00

the Cairns Hotel where he had stolen the seasoned

35:03

rail pass in the name of Thorpe. A witness

35:05

might be able to give the cops his description.

35:10

As the train approached Woollewin, Herbert tossed

35:13

his blood stained newspaper and their freshly

35:15

washed tyre lever from the carriage. Attaché

35:18

case in hand, wearing the dead man's

35:20

suit and hat he stepped off the

35:22

train at Woollewin, sending spearing's ticket to

35:24

the station mistress before escaping into the

35:26

dawn. First he got

35:28

the yellow taxi to South Brisbane, then the blue

35:30

and white cab to Coolan Gatta. Next

35:33

he walked across the border to Tweed Heads.

35:35

Then he flicked that bus to Malumbar. Outside

35:38

Malumbar he threw the conductor's diagram

35:40

into some lantana. He

35:42

also ditched other incriminating evidence. The

35:44

John Thorpe season pass, his own

35:46

sleeper ticket, Castello's steamer ticket and

35:48

spearing's watch and chain. Herbert

35:51

had to hang around in Malumbar because it was

35:53

a couple of hours before the rail moved to

35:55

the casino. So he went to a

35:58

real barber and he got a shave. He

36:00

also went to a cafe near the railway station

36:02

and had a feed. Herbert

36:04

walked a couple of stations along and joined the

36:06

train at Stone Siding. He bought

36:08

his ticket in the carriage. At

36:11

Casino he got on the Sydney bound overnight

36:13

train. It was June at

36:15

Central at 7.30 the next morning. But

36:17

Herbert got off at Newcastle. There

36:19

he bought a second class ticket to Sydney. Leaving

36:22

this service at Hornsby he then got an

36:24

electric train into Wynyard. Every

36:27

step of the way Herbert Coppert had been

36:29

lucky to get quick connections. But

36:31

he'd also been clever. He hadn't

36:33

hidden and he hadn't loitered. He'd

36:36

gotten out of Queensland within hours of his

36:38

crimes. He'd made it to Sydney before

36:40

the police even knew he'd been heading south for

36:42

the border. But Herbert was cunning enough

36:44

to know that they might have picked up his trail.

36:47

That was why he'd changed trains twice rather

36:49

than just rolled into Central Station and put

36:51

himself at risk of being caught there. No

36:57

one was looking for him at Wynyard. Herbert

36:59

hailed a taxi and went to the

37:01

Doncaster Hotel out at Kensington. There

37:04

he checked in under the name of

37:06

Mr Fitzgerald, his mother's maiden name. That

37:09

afternoon he went out to second hand stores

37:11

and porn stores in Darlinghurst. Using

37:13

the proceeds from his murderous robbery he

37:15

bought a suitcase. He purchased a

37:17

pair of women's shoes and a pair of stockings. He

37:21

also picked up a big red hat that would help

37:23

shade his face. Herbert kept shopping.

37:25

He bought a bra and undies, a

37:27

grey cardigan, a lady's slip and two

37:30

dresses, a woman's coat, a handkerchief, a

37:32

handbag, gloves, a tube of cream and

37:34

a tin of make-up powder. To

37:36

cap it all he added a religious medal.

37:39

Back at the Doncaster Hotel Herbert shaved his

37:41

arms and his legs. He

37:43

collected the hair he'd shaved and wrapped it in

37:45

paper. He hid this on

37:48

top of the cupboard where he also

37:50

placed spearing's attaché case having now realised

37:52

it bore those distinctive PMG initials. The

37:55

following morning Herbert applied make-up and dressed himself

37:57

as a woman. In his suitcase.

38:00

he had his own suit including the

38:02

bloody singlet and trousers. He

38:04

also had spearing suit and grey-filled hat

38:06

along with the extra dress. Herbert

38:09

slipped out of the hotel without returning the key

38:11

and he got a taxi to Central Station. He

38:14

left his suitcase in the cloakroom in the name

38:16

of Miss Williams and went for a walk around

38:18

the southern part of the city in his feminine

38:21

guise. To his delight

38:23

no one seemed to notice that he was

38:25

a he, but what was much

38:27

less pleasing were newspaper placards announcing that police

38:29

were looking for the train killer in Sydney.

38:32

Herbert bought a second-class ticket to Mossvale,

38:35

collected his suitcase and headed south. As

38:38

he waited for the 10 p.m. train that

38:40

would take him to Melbourne, Herbert had a

38:42

sobering encounter at the station bookstore. He

38:45

bought some tobacco and when he handed over the

38:47

money the vendor said to him, thank you sir.

38:50

Herbert's beard was showing through his poorly applied

38:52

powder, but he got on the train

38:55

safely. In the carriage a woman

38:57

looked at him suspiciously. She said, you're

38:59

not a woman, you're a man. One of

39:01

those police spies I suppose. Still it

39:04

doesn't concern me. No

39:06

one was concerned enough to raise the matter with

39:08

the conductor. While Herbert

39:10

was racing south towards Victoria, Queensland and

39:13

New South Wales police, despite their brilliant

39:15

tracing of the fugitives movements in the

39:17

24 hours after the double murder, were

39:19

flat-footed on Saturday night in Sydney. They

39:22

didn't have a clue where their man was in

39:24

the city, much less that he was

39:27

disguised as a woman and heading out of the state.

39:30

Herbert's train arrived into Melbourne's Spencer Street station

39:32

around 11.45 a.m. on Sunday the 5th of

39:34

April. Herbert hurried

39:39

from the platform to the cab rank. Was

39:42

the taxi driver suspicious about his female

39:44

attire? Herbert didn't know, but the

39:46

man didn't say anything as he dropped him

39:48

at the Victoria Coffee Palace in Little Collins

39:50

Street. When Herbert walked up to reception,

39:52

the woman at the desk had her head down.

39:55

In a horse voice, Herbert asked for a single

39:57

room for a night. Looking up, The

40:00

receptionist, Miss Crooks, was surprised to see

40:02

a man dressed as a woman. But

40:05

she didn't fault her. Miss Crooks

40:07

asked what name. N.

40:09

Williams, he said. The receptionist didn't

40:11

ask whether that was Miss or Mrs. What

40:14

was Miss Crooks to do? Less

40:16

than a year ago in Melbourne, a man

40:18

dressed as a woman had been charged with

40:20

acting indecently. But in court,

40:22

the magistrate ruled what he'd done wasn't

40:24

illegal and the case had been dismissed.

40:27

We don't know whether Miss Crooks knew this or not.

40:30

She completed the booking for the man before her and

40:32

assigned him room 441 on the fourth floor. Once

40:37

the man in the dress had his key and

40:40

had left, Miss Crooks made her decision. She'd

40:42

call her manager and report this strange

40:45

new guest. I'm

40:51

Michael Adams and you've been listening to part

40:53

two of the Forgotten Australia episode, Nightmare on

40:55

the Night Train. Part three will

40:57

be released later in the week or you can

40:59

hear it now by becoming a Forgotten Australia supporter.

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