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Hello, forgiver. Do you have someone in your life who is just super laid back

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and it seems like nothing can faze them?

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It's very likely that that person has a phlegmatic temperament.

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Today I am talking about phlegmatics and forgiveness,

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and I have a conversation with Hannah Dustman, a single woman who really struggles

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with forgiveness as a single and her phlegmatic temperament.

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But before I head into the content, as Catholics, we celebrate Mary the whole month of May.

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And because of that, I am offering my 5 Days to Forgiveness mini-retreat at a 50% discount.

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Just go to my website, www.drcarron.com, and click on the link that gives you access to the retreat.

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Let's begin. Hello, forgiver. Welcome to the Forgiveness is for You podcast.

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I'm Dr. Karen Silva, Forgiveness Guide and Catholic Mindset Coach.

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I've spent 30 years in therapy for sexual, physical, emotional,

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and racial trauma, but therapy could only take me so far.

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I believe that there's freedom in forgiveness, but we cannot do it alone.

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Do you struggle forgiving yourself or others? Are you ashamed of what happened to you in the past?

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Do you harbor unforgiveness toward the adults who were supposed to protect you but didn't?

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Do you resent a whole class of people because you were discriminated against?

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On this podcast, we talk about all things forgiveness, what it is,

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what it's not, and how you can begin to forgive yourself, others, and God.

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Allow me to be your forgiveness guide. Let's begin.

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Friends, in his book, The Four Temperaments, Rev.

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Conrad Hawk states about the phlegmatic, He is not easily exasperated either

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by offenses or by failures or sufferings.

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He remains composed, thoughtful, deliberate, and has a cold,

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sober, and practical judgment.

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Wow. On the surface, laid back, calm, happy-go-lucky, and a little bit deeper,

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the phlegmatic looks very different.

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Phlegmatics take their time to analyze the situation and process their emotions

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and understand the situation that led to the need for forgiveness.

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They may reflect on what happened, why it happened, and how it made them feel.

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Phlegmatics, rather than jumping to conclusions or reacting impulsively,

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may try to understand the motives and perspectives of the person who wronged them.

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This helps them see the situation from multiple angles and fosters empathy,

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which is essential for forgiveness.

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Phlegmatics are willing to let go of resentments.

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They have a knack for letting go of grudges, and once they've analyzed the situation

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and understand the motives, they can release lingering feelings of anger,

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resentment, and bitterness,

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choosing not to dwell on them.

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Phlegmatics see communication as optional.

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Depending on the situation, they may not choose to communicate their forgiveness explicitly.

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They might prefer to simply move forward without bringing up the past,

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especially if confrontation makes them uncomfortable.

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Phlegmatics are also very keen on setting boundaries to protect themselves from

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future harm while still forgiving the person who wronged them.

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Phlegmatics may encounter the following roadblocks in the process of forgiveness.

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Avoidance of conflict. Phlegmatics may avoid addressing conflicts or confronting

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the person who wronged them, which can prolong the forgiveness process.

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Their reluctance to engage in confrontation might prevent them from expressing

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their feelings and resolving the issue.

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Phlegmatics tend to overthink and analyze situations deeply,

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which can sometimes lead to rumination on the details of the offense,

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replaying the incident in their minds, and finding it difficult to let go of negative emotions.

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Phlegmatics may have difficulty expressing their emotions, which can delay the

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process of forgiveness and make

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it challenging for them to convey their forgiveness to the other person.

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Phlegmatics may have fear of being heard again despite their calm demeanor.

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They may harbor that fear for a very very long time.

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They may also be afraid to be vulnerable and that might make it difficult for

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them to trust the person who wronged them and forgive wholeheartedly.

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They may also struggle to forgive

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if they feel a lack of closure or understanding about the situation.

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If the other person hasn't apologized or acknowledged their wrongdoing.

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Forgiveness may be very challenging for the phlegmatic.

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If the phlegmatic perceives the offense as a significant injustice or betrayal,

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they may find it even harder to forgive.

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Their strong sense of fairness and justice may make it difficult for them to

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reconcile the wrongdoing with their values and beliefs.

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They also have a stubborn streak.

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While they may typically prefer harmony, they may struggle to let go of the

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negative feelings that they feel and the wounds that they carry,

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and then that could evolve into a stubbornness and a prideful attitude.

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What steps can phlegmatics take to forgive?

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Number one, acknowledge hurt feelings.

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Recognize the emotions you're experiencing as a result of the offense.

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It might take some time to identify and understand the feelings before you can

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move through the forgiveness process.

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Number two, reflect on the situation. Consider the circumstances,

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motives, and factors involved and try to gain a deeper understanding of what happened and why.

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Number three, accept reality. Phlegmatics may need to come to terms with the

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fact that they were hurt by someone they trusted or cared about,

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even if it goes against their preference for harmony.

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Number four, cultivate empathy.

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Try to see the situation from the perspective of the person who wronged you.

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Cultivating empathy can help the phlegmatic understand the motives behind the

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offense and foster compassion toward the other person.

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Number five, release resentment.

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Make a conscious effort to let go of any resentment or anger you may be holding on to.

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This might involve practicing forgiveness exercises, such as writing a letter

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to the person who wronged you, even if you don't intend to send it,

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or engaging in relaxation techniques to calm your mind.

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Number six, if necessary, set boundaries.

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Number seven, if you desire as a phlegmatic to continue to have that person in your life,

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communicate your thoughts, your emotions, your disappointments,

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and your understanding of the situation to the offender.

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You decide how and when it is to be done. Number eight, focus on healing.

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Shift your focus from dwelling on the past to nurturing your own emotional well-being and healing.

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You may want to engage in activities that bring you joy and fulfillment,

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spend time with supportive friends and loved ones, and practice self-care to

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nurture yourself during the forgiveness process.

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Well, forgivers, you've probably heard enough from me. How about I introduce

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you to Hannah Dustman. Welcome, Hannah.

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Thanks. I'm excited to be here. Tell us about who you are, what you do,

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and what you believe Ligmatics really experienced in the forgiveness process.

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Sure. Yeah. My name is Hannah Desmond. I am a Catholic mindset coach with Nainoa Catholic.

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I've worked with Nainoa Catholic for almost three years, which is crazy.

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It's been a wonderful journey and experience. experience

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I have lots of different hats that I

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wear with Metanoia Catholic but my favorite is

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getting to coach I'm a resident coach on the

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team I get to be a drill instructor for our certification program so I get to

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just be around a whole community of coaches that are on fire and it's really

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been through those experiences of having this like professional kind of goal

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of fulfilling my role well,

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that I've also just continued to become more immersed in my own personal development.

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My own relationship with the Lord has changed dramatically in the best way possible

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as I just am immersed in the coaching world.

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And it's just so cool that my job is really to...

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Understand who the Lord made me to be so that I can grow in relationship with

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him and with other people. Learning about the temperaments has definitely been kind of one of those icing

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on the cake kind of thing. Yes. And that one of the things that I love about this is that we do have that

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unique design element and the temperaments is just one part of that unique design.

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What do you Do you think phlegmatics would want to know about how phlegmatics

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go through a process of forgiveness?

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What's it like for you as a phlegmatic? I think a lot of the kind of like the understanding of harmony and wanting to

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be the peacekeeper, a lot of that resonates very deeply, sometimes to a fault,

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I will admit, of wanting to avoid confrontation at all costs.

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That's me. And I have grown in recognizing that sometimes the only way to actual

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harmony is to kind of go through the touchy things and kind of be a little bit uncomfortable.

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But I would say that really being motivated by harmony and by peace is key.

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But then also, you know, kind of swinging in the opposite direction as

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well of like sometimes being almost avoidant of the conversation or even maybe

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being a little bit like slower to recognize where I need to forgive somebody

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because I almost downplay it to such a degree because I don't want to find the

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problem because then it's like the problem needs to be addressed.

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And so if there's no problem, then we can all just kind of be friends and move forward.

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But then also recognizing that, okay, then I'm not at peace with myself.

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You know, and there's something that's out of alignment there as well.

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So I would say that's the biggest thing that really jumped off the page to me.

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I do think that there have been experiences of forgiving others where...

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I don't feel like a conversation is necessary. And not only because I'm trying

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to avoid the difficult thing, but because it's just, I can just do this in my heart.

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You know, this is just, I mean, the Lord are the only ones that really,

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you know, need to know to this extent.

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And sometimes I think that's prudent. And I think that there's a lot of goodness

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that can come from that as well. Yeah.

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So as you were talking, I was thinking about coming from Africa.

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I was thinking about the proverbial ostrich that kind of just sticks its head in the sand.

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They don't really stick their heads in the sand. But then when I think about

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the phlegmatic, I'm kind of thinking about that person who just doesn't want to see what's real.

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Am I correct with that? I think there's definitely an element of that.

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I'm also like high sanguine too.

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And so sometimes I think the people pleaser really comes out.

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And so I think the people pleasing tendency with the kind of like the avoidance

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of conflict tendency, I see those a lot of times kind of playing off of one another.

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And if it's, yeah, I would say to that degree, there is kind of this like, what do you mean?

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Like, what's the problem? There's no problem here. You know,

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even if that's not entirely truthful. Oh, that really brings up something for me.

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Then for you, perhaps when someone has hurt you, would that be a failure to

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acknowledge that they've done something to you?

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But then if you flip that, have you experienced other people in your life,

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in your relationships, then getting frustrated with the fact that you can see

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that there is a problem? them. Yeah.

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I can think of one example from, I was in college and it was,

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I think one of the only times my roommate, who's my best friend and I like really

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have like a pretty big disagreement.

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And there was something I was not acknowledging like the wrong in another relationship

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that I was a part of, but she saw the wrong, even though she wasn't a part of my relationship.

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And so she kind of looking out for my best interests was like,

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Hey, have you noticed X, Y, and Z?

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And I did. I became really defensive because I didn't want to acknowledge it.

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And I knew as soon as she said it, like I knew there was truth to it.

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And I knew that she didn't challenge me like that just to challenge me like that.

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She actually saw something that was a concern for her.

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And I knew that she loved me. But there definitely was this.

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There's no problem. There's no problem. Like you're making this a big deal. Like stop.

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We're going to talk about this. You don't need to worry about this. And the ironic thing is then now she and I weren't in harmony anymore.

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More. And so it was just like, I'm not in harmony with this other person.

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I'm really not in harmony with myself because she kind of called me out.

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And now I have to look at the problem in front of me. And now there's another

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person who I'm kind of in conflict with.

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So it is, I would say that has occurred.

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But the ironic thing is, it just breeds more conflict, which is the whole thing

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that I was trying to avoid in the beginning, which is just, it's not funny, but it's funny.

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Yes. Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing.

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So what is the process then that you go through to get to that point where you

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go, there is a problem here. Forgiveness needs to happen. I think really it does start a lot with myself.

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And maybe I wouldn't have always been able to say this, but I would say now

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that I have more maturity and I am much more aware of my interior life,

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like the thoughts and thinking, especially my emotions that I'm feeling.

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I feel like that's kind of like my first indicator is I feel restless,

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or I feel insecure, or I feel, you know, just exhausted emotionally.

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And it's like, what's what's going on here. And so a lot of times,

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it really does kind of start with that personal reflection of me,

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and I just feel exposed or vulnerable,

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and just kind of asking a lot of those questions of myself as to why and,

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and being honest with myself first, it's like, you know, it seems a lot safer in that regard.

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But I think it is after that time of reflection, which I know is something else

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that you had kind of shared that resonates very deeply.

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It's then being able to kind of have like some space to kind of recognize,

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okay, there was something there that was a miss and being able to own my fault in the ordeal, right?

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Whether it was big or small, even if it was just me abdicating my emotions to

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somebody else or my excuses.

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But I think, yeah, kind of starting with myself, I think makes it easier then

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for me to acknowledge the actual hurt that somebody else may have caused me

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because it's not like I'm just blaming them, but I'm kind of taking a share

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of responsibility here. And so it's like, okay, can I forgive myself?

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Okay, now can I forgive this other person? And kind of like being able to then see them kind of in light of the way that

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I see myself, which most of the time works out well, but sometimes it's hard to forgive yourself.

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It's actually easier to forgive somebody else than it is yourself in that capacity.

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So, but I would say that, yeah, kind of a lot of that internal reflection,

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I would say is really kind of what gets the ball rolling and,

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and even just kind of opens it up maybe for a conversation with like,

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you know, a trusted friend or my spiritual director, or even my mom or something to kind of be like,

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you know, this is like what's going on and And just giving somebody else an

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opportunity to like speak into it and kind of just even affirm or kind of challenge some of those things.

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So that way it's like not me just acting on impulse, but it seems like I'm gathering

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more stability of facts of what actually happened.

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Is this something actually to be hung up about?

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Am I, you know, I don't want to be overreacting here. Like, can you just kind

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of check me to make sure I'm not overreacting?

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And so then it's a lot of yeah it's not

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super there's like a lot of other things that happen before there's actually

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like it's a conversation or just like forgiving this person in my heart there's

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kind of a so i want to make sure that like i'm doing it the right way i guess

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yeah so as i'm listening to you talk i'm thinking this takes time so you don't

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hurry a phlegmatic yes yes because i think that i would be so quick to dismiss

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it like oh really wasn't that big a deal don't worry about it.

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Yeah. So I can see like your sanguine and your phlegmatic being at war with

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each other, where one is just like, just get over it.

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And the other one's like, no, I need more time.

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Yeah. You mentioned something you said when I'm not abdicating my emotions to

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someone else, tell me more. What does that look like? Yeah.

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I think that a lot of times the person to forgive give is myself because I,

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I don't, I don't want to stir the pot.

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Like I don't want to make other people uncomfortable. I don't want to do something

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that's going to be really hard necessarily either.

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And so I don't want to ask somebody else, I should say to like do the hard thing

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because like, I don't want to be asked necessarily to do the hard thing.

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But if I put the load on my shoulders, so to say, right, then it's like, well, it's not that bad.

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I can like kind of make excuses for it or justify it or, you know,

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I can do this, you know, kind of like toughen up a little bit.

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Really what that breeds though is resentment. Whether that person even asks me to do that thing or not, I am now resenting

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them because while I want something to be easy, I just put more work for myself

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to do work on my own plate. And now I'm like, this is too hard. I can't do this by myself.

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Like, I don't, I don't know where to start, you know, and you just kind of start

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to spiral and somehow like the finger kind of starts to point at that other person.

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And I think the advocating is like, well, they made me feel this way.

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Or like if they wouldn't have done X, then I wouldn't be feeling Y.

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Now knowing where my emotions come from, like my emotions come from thoughts that I'm thinking.

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So like another person cannot make me feel a certain way, right?

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Like I feel a certain way because I'm thinking a certain thing about what they

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did or about what they said or about how do they treat me.

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But just recognizing how much I take out. Yeah, I take my emotion,

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which is in my ownership sphere, my locus of control.

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And it's like I'm just like throwing it at somebody else and kind of expecting

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them to catch it and to take care of it and to safeguard it in a way that isn't possible.

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And then I blame them whenever they like drop it. Yes. I always talk to my clients

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about where I ask them this question, what percentage of your time are you spending in your head?

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And what percentage of your time are you spending in the other person's head?

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And pretty soon they'll figure out, oh, I'm expecting them to feel the emotions

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that I feel and to think like I think.

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And so it just prolongs that time

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that they actually come together and work out the conflict and

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get to that place where they're cultivating a heart

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that can forgive absolutely absolutely because it's like

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you're like piling all these things on top of what the actual issue is and so

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it's almost like i can hide the actual pain with these other things which now

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have to be sorted through appropriately in order to even get to what the actual

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issue was which again is so ironic because phlegmatics want things to be simple.

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They want things to be like easy and we end up making it harder because there

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is like that avoidance at times. At least that is in my experience.

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Yes, yes. What's interesting, too, is you're the first guest who is single that I'm interviewing.

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I would like you to speak a little bit from the perspective of a single being

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phlegmatic in how you interact with other singles and connect with other singles.

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And if conflict arises, you know, what that could look like in terms of the

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different temperaments that you encounter. counter. Yeah.

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And even going to dive deeper, like into this, like topic of forgiveness,

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I feel like, especially in the past six.

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Seven years, it's been since I've been in any sort of relationships,

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as I was in college, a lot of that resentment, like I was talking about gets

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pointed at either myself or at God, right?

21:08

It's like, there's, that's like kind of where the pain kind of seems to stem from the most.

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And I've noticed that in clients that I've worked with, I think I've coached

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a lot of single women, or just my friends who are in a very similar space as me.

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And I think it kind of becomes this like, well, then I must be doing something wrong, right?

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Which is kind of this like age old lie, right? Like, I'm not enough.

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Like, I think women just in general struggle with that. But I think there is

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a hard time of like forgiving myself and forgiving my my past self, right?

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If I wouldn't have done x when I was 21, then I wouldn't be single,

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or if I would have just changed X, Y, and Z in my interaction at this young

21:46

adult event last week, then it's like you kind of start to go into these fictional

21:51

stories in your mind, but you're looking to justify the means.

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But I really do think that a lot of it is I'm doing something wrong,

21:59

or the Lord is doing something wrong, or there's some sort of conflict between me and the Lord.

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I must not be praying enough, or I must not be holy enough, or there must be

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something about me that needs to be fixed first before the Lord brings this man into my life.

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And so I think there's a lot of times even learning to like, the Lord's perfect.

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He's never done anything wrong, nor will he ever do anything wrong.

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But I even just learning that I still can forgive him because of my interpretation.

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And there still is goodness that comes out of me reconciling with the Lord,

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which was a hard thing for me to sit with for quite some time.

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He didn't actually do something that was wrong, but I still am angry at him.

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Like I still am, if I'm being honest, like I still am resentful towards him.

22:47

I'm still fearful towards him. And just, again, kind of taking a lot of that time to reflect and to sit and

22:54

to like realize like this doesn't mean I'm a bad Catholic because I'm like angry with God.

22:59

Like he can take it. But that wasn't something that, you know,

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I just like felt comfortable doing overnight.

23:04

Night it was just a lot of long drawn out

23:07

process in a way but it was yeah it was just I

23:10

guess that refinement kind of going through the fire you kind

23:12

of get that that refinement does I answer the question it does and I talked

23:16

about the phlegmatic being prone to rumination and rumination is what I call

23:23

playing old tapes or playing tapes in my mind where you can take a thought and spin it a thousand ways.

23:31

And none of it could be real. Yes, the rumination, I can definitely, definitely agree to that.

23:38

And even just, I don't know, I'll go on a date with a guy and we'll have a good

23:42

time. We'll be together for several hours.

23:45

He'll walk me to my car. He'll say, let's do this again.

23:48

All the signs, it's like, this went well. And my drive home,

23:52

I will just be thinking about like, well, did he really mean that? Like,

23:55

well, I probably made a weird noise at this point in time. And that probably wasn't cute.

23:59

Or, man, I should have said this instead of this, even though like the conversation still went well.

24:05

And so there is almost like a lot of like that second guessing,

24:07

I think, too, that kind of corresponds, especially it is vulnerable to date.

24:12

And it is vulnerable to like, not know, you know, what's going to happen tomorrow.

24:16

And are you know, have a second date? Or, you know, at what point in time?

24:19

I don't know, do you continue to like take that relationship to the next level?

24:23

But it It is, I'm sure married people could ruminate all day long too and do,

24:27

but it's just, it is so interesting because at least in my eyes,

24:31

right, there's like, well, there's not that commitment. There's not, there's not that like security net of like, we can,

24:36

we can have an argument. We can fight and know that we still love one another.

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And we're still going to choose each other the next day where it's,

24:42

I don't know what's going to happen. And even being okay, like, can I, can I be vulnerable?

24:47

And what's the opposite? I'm not vulnerable. If I lock my heart up and don't

24:52

let anyone close to me ever.

24:54

Again, you're just kind of creating more of the thing that you're trying to

24:57

avoid in the first place. Yes. I just want to thank you for your vulnerability right now.

25:02

My heart is like swelling. And so I'm feeling touched in this moment because

25:08

I am a parent of a single as well.

25:12

And it's like you're having his conversation right now.

25:16

And I think culturally, young people of faith are struggling.

25:22

And being a phlegmatic, you're probably struggling more because you do want

25:27

that harmony and you do want to avoid feeling that discomfort.

25:32

And you do tend to ruminate and second guess because that's how you were designed.

25:39

It is not something that you wake up in the morning and say,

25:42

today I'm going to ruminate on everything, right?

25:45

It's just, We are all uniquely designed and that's part of your temperament.

25:50

But thank God for his grace, because you can see yourself.

25:55

How many people go through life, they never know what their temperament is,

26:00

and they can step outside of themselves and see themselves so that they can

26:05

actually take some steps to allow themselves to be opened up,

26:10

to receive the grace and work on those parts of themselves that do create opportunities

26:16

to address the conflict.

26:18

To take the steps toward forgiveness to

26:21

take the steps toward asking for forgiveness so

26:25

you you have this this beautiful vulnerability

26:29

that's showing me how much work you've done to get this to this place of maturity

26:35

right where you can actually voice this i'm angry with god how many people afraid

26:41

to say that right yeah right right well and something too that's kind

26:46

of coming out, I guess, is I'm even just listening to your very,

26:50

very thoughtful kind of affirmation and just feeling very seen.

26:54

The temperaments are so good at that because you're like, wow, I can actually put words to my experiences that I just thought that's how everybody

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saw the world, but then recognizing that that's not entirely true.

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But even just kind of this idea of like, I do, I want to process.

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That's something I'm always asking my team for is just like,

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what does like the end goal look like?

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And just give me the steps that you want me to take to get there and I will plug and play.

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At that point in time, I got it, but I want the clear steps.

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I want the process to follow. To me, that equals ease and comfort and a known variable, but relationships,

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regardless of what type of relationship they are, are not known.

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You can't predict another person, which praise the Lord for that.

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But it's not as simple as like, we'll just do A, B, and C, and you're going

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to get the relationship, whether that's a friendship, whether that's like a

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romantic relationship, whether that's like a family dynamic that you're struggling with.

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And it's like, there can be steps that are helpful, but those are always going

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to be a little bit varied. And I think especially for phlegmatics,

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it's like just like accepting that or just coming to terms with it ahead of time.

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So that way it's not like as much of a curveball whenever you encounter like

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that wasn't supposed to happen. They weren't supposed to respond this way or now what do I do?

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And it's just recognizing that people are not linear. And that's just that's

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just how it is. I love that. I love that people are not linear.

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I could talk to you all day long.

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This is so great. But for the sake of time here, I just want to thank you so

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very much for joining me in this conversation and for just representing young people.

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I'm getting old. Young people in such a beautiful and vulnerable way.

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Thank you so much, Hannah. Well, thank you. It's a joy and a privilege.

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My dear forgivers, until next time, much love.

28:47

Please be tender with yourself. Forgiveness is serious business.

28:52

May the grace of the Lord be with you as you contemplate what you learned today.

28:56

If this podcast is making a difference in your life, please hit subscribe below

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and consider writing a review. Share the link with a friend, take a screenshot and share on your social media.

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Connect with me as your forgiveness guide.

29:09

I will hold space for you as you work through your pain and rewrite your story.

29:13

Sign up for my 5 Days to Forgiveness self-guided mini audio retreat at www.drkaren.com.

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Check out my website for how you can bring me to your church or small faith sharing group.

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And remember friends, forgiveness is for you.

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Music.