0:00

Hello, forgiver. Today you will hear me have a conversation with an angry mom.

0:05

Yes, an angry mom. If you've had an angry mom, if you've been one,

0:11

then you want to stay tuned for this episode.

0:14

But more importantly, I am speaking with a choleric and we're talking about

0:20

forgiveness from the lens of a choleric.

0:24

Stay tuned and I'll see you on the other side of the bumper.

0:29

Friends, if you don't know what your temperament is,

0:32

I encourage you to, you can Google temperaments quiz and take a free temperaments

0:37

quiz, or you can click on the link in the show notes and take the quiz that

0:42

is available to you through Metanoia Catholic Academy.

0:45

Let's dive into what it means for cholerics to forgive.

0:51

Cholerics are often described as assertive, ambitious, and goal-oriented.

0:56

They're very focused on solutions, and so forgiveness to them might look like a project.

1:02

They are very good at direct communication. They're typically straightforward

1:07

in their communication, and when they need to forgive someone,

1:11

they might prefer to address the issue head-on through clear and assertive communication.

1:16

They would want to express their forgiveness directly to the person who hurt

1:20

them, outlining their expectations for future behavior and any necessary boundaries.

1:27

I kind of get the sense that you just don't mess with a choleric.

1:31

Cholerics are action-oriented. When forgiving, they may focus on tangible actions

1:37

that they can take to repair the relationship or prevent similar conflicts in the future.

1:43

They are also willing to make amends to rebuild trust and set clear expectations for both parties.

1:51

Calerics tend to have a rational approach to any situation where forgiveness is necessary.

1:58

They tend to be logical and rational in their decision-making process,

2:02

so they'll weigh the pros and cons of holding on to the resentment versus letting go and moving forward.

2:09

They have a tendency to be able to assess the situation objectively and,

2:15

and consider all the factors that are involved. For example,

2:19

the severity of the offense, the impact that it had on the relationship,

2:25

and the potential for reconciliation.

2:28

Like I said before, clerics are not afraid to set boundaries.

2:32

They know what they will and will not tolerate, and they are willing to do what's

2:37

necessary to protect themselves from future harm.

2:40

They are ready and willing to let go of grudges, even though they might have

2:47

a tendency to hold on to anger or resentment.

2:50

They very carefully weigh whether it's worth it to hold on to that grudge.

2:55

So they work very actively towards releasing negative emotions.

3:01

And they also recognize that holding on to grudges only impede their own progress and success.

3:11

Calerics are very focused on personal growth. So anything that drags them down,

3:17

they would want to get rid of. And so if there is a situation where an injustice has been committed against

3:24

them and they perceive that injustice to be dragging them down or away from

3:29

their goals of personal growth, then forgiveness can become the project that they take on in order to move forward.

3:36

They prefer to focus on the future rather than dwelling on the past.

3:40

Forgiveness for the choleric might be a means to free themselves from the burden

3:44

of resentment and to create space for new opportunities and growth.

3:49

Very practical people cholerics are.

3:52

Some roadblocks that cholerics might face in the forgiveness process.

3:57

Cholerics might struggle with expressing vulnerability or admitting that they've

4:01

been hurt because they might perceive see forgiveness as a sign of weakness,

4:06

and it can make it very challenging for them to let go of resentment.

4:11

Cholerics can be impatient. They want quick results.

4:15

And so if forgiveness takes a long time with a particular person,

4:20

or if it's a gradual process that takes time and patience,

4:24

they may become frustrated or disillusioned if they don't see immediate progress,

4:28

or if the other party doesn't respond as quickly as they would like.

4:33

Calerics can be very stubborn. They can feel like they don't need to change. It's the other person's problem.

4:40

And their strong-willed nature can make it really difficult for them to soften

4:44

their stance or consider alternative perspectives, which can hinder the forgiveness process.

4:51

Calerics are very focused on justice. They have a very strong sense of fairness,

4:57

which may influence their approach to forgiveness.

5:00

They may struggle to forgive if they feel that the other party hasn't been held

5:05

accountable for their actions or or hasn't received sufficient consequences. Their focus on justice may lead

5:13

them to seek retribution rather than reconciliation.

5:18

Calerics can also have this huge fear of being taken advantage of.

5:23

Calerics do not want to appear weak and so they may not want to forgive because

5:29

they might think that the other person is just wanting to take advantage of them.

5:34

Calerics might lack empathy for the difficulty that other people are experiencing

5:40

in the forgiveness process.

5:43

They prioritize anything logic and rational over emotions.

5:48

And so for them, it's really difficult to put themselves in the place of the

5:53

person who might have hurt them.

5:56

They're also prideful. They struggle with self-importance, which can make it

6:00

difficult for them to admit when they've have been wronged or even if they've

6:04

wronged someone else and extend forgiveness or ask for forgiveness from other people.

6:10

They might prioritize their own ego over the well-being of their relationship.

6:16

So that makes it hard for them to reconcile conflicts and move forward.

6:20

So what can cholerics do to move toward forgiveness?

6:24

Number one, they can acknowledge and accept emotions, their tendency is to prioritize logic.

6:32

So dropping into their bodies and experiencing emotions such as anger,

6:37

sadness, or disappointment without judgment can be helpful for cholerics to

6:43

move toward forgiveness. Number two, cholerics can identify the root cause of the conflict or the hurt.

6:50

Once they understand the root cause of the conflict and how they want to behave,

6:56

how they want to move forward, then calerics can make a plan and they're very good at making plans.

7:03

And executing them to forgive the other person. Number three,

7:08

cholerics can practice empathy. They can make an effort to put themselves in the skin or the shoes of the offender,

7:17

or if they're the offending party, to put themselves in the place of the victim.

7:24

Cultivating empathy can soften those feelings of resentment and pave the way to forgiveness.

7:30

Number four, Four, cholerics can communicate assertively.

7:34

They can initiate a conversation with the person who hurt them and,

7:39

if appropriate, communicate their desire to work toward forgiveness.

7:43

They can also be very clear about the boundaries and expectations that they have moving forward.

7:48

Number five, cholerics can let go of pride.

7:52

I would recommend that cholerics go and listen to my episode on pride to get

7:57

a better understanding of how pride might function in their lives,

8:01

but pride can be a huge barrier to forgiveness.

8:05

So cholerics can consciously work on letting go of ego-driven motivations.

8:10

Number six, set realistic expectations.

8:14

Cholerics can understand that forgiveness is a process, that it takes time, and it takes effort.

8:22

So setting realistic expectations for yourself and the other party and being

8:27

patient as you navigate the forgiveness journey is something that can help cholerics

8:32

get to that place of making the decision to forgive.

8:36

Number seven, focus on the future. By focusing on the future rather than dwelling

8:42

on past grievances, cholerics can cultivate a mindset of forgiveness and resilience.

8:47

They can direct their energy into constructive pursuits that promote growth and healing.

8:54

They can focus on building positive relationships, pursuing personal goals,

8:59

and creating a fulfilling life for themselves.

9:02

And finally, number eight, cholerics can seek the support of therapists.

9:08

They can seek the support of a coach. And if they don't trust those individuals,

9:14

they can seek support from trusted friends, loved ones, or a religious figure in their lives.

9:21

Talking to others can provide perspective, validation, and give cholerics that

9:27

emotional support that they may need to get them out of their heads and into their bodies.

9:34

When cholerics take these steps to seek support, it can cultivate a mindset

9:39

of forgiveness, and that mindset can help them promote healing in their relationships.

9:44

You have heard so much about forgiveness from the lens of the choleric from

9:50

me, but let me introduce you to a real-life choleric, fellow Catholic Mindset

9:57

Coach, Katherine Johnson, who will also be telling us about her experience of forgiveness.

10:05

Welcome, Katherine, to the Forgiveness Is For You podcast.

10:09

Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

10:12

Yeah, thank you so much, Karen. I am so happy to be here, and I am happy to

10:18

share a little bit about me. I am a wife and a mom of three little kids, all under the age of eight,

10:25

and I am a Catholic Mindset Coach.

10:27

I particularly coach moms who are really struggling with anger and a lot of

10:31

mom guilt and shame around that anger.

10:34

And part of the reason why I do that, well, the biggest reason why I do that

10:37

is because that was my story. A lot of my story involves really struggling with that. So that is what I do now.

10:46

And I love it. And forgiveness is a big part of that. So I'm happy to be here and to talk about that.

10:52

Yes. So when I went through this profile of the choleric, through the lens of

10:59

forgiveness with you, you just got this look on your face and you just laughed and you said,

11:03

you just, you know, like, that's me totally identified with what I was talking about.

11:10

So can you expand a little bit more on what what was going through your mind

11:16

when you heard me talk about forgiveness from the standpoint of a choleric? Yeah.

11:21

So a lot of what you said resonated particularly around forgiving others.

11:26

I'm choleric melancholic. Melancholic is my secondary. I find that the melancholic

11:30

really struggles to forgive myself. And that's where the mom guilt and the shame really sticks to me.

11:35

But with the choleric side, I've found that that part of me really struggles to forgive others.

11:41

And what kind of came up as you were talking was having that proper understanding

11:46

of what anger and forgiveness, because for me, they just go so hand in hand,

11:50

because anger is such a block to forgiveness.

11:53

And so having that proper understanding, talking about, you know,

11:57

the clarity and the understanding that clerics like to have.

12:01

And I felt like before I had the understanding of what forgiveness was,

12:05

that's why I found it hard to forgive, because I had all of these incorrect

12:10

ideas about what forgiveness was.

12:12

I felt like forgiveness was weakness, which clerics don't like weakness.

12:17

I thought that forgiving was condoning the other person's actions and saying it's okay, right?

12:23

Because oftentimes in our society, we say, you know, say you're sorry.

12:28

And then the other person says that's okay, right? And so I think that really

12:32

just built up in my head of, okay, well, to forgive somebody means to say it's okay.

12:36

The cleric part of me was, you know, very, well, it's not okay.

12:39

Hey, what happened isn't okay.

12:41

And so I'm not ready to forgive you. And so when I really had a better understanding

12:45

and had that clarity around what forgiveness truly is, that is really what kind of started me on the path.

12:51

To, to being able to forgive easier, to enjoy forgiving, to seeing it when you

12:57

talked about efficiency, when you talked about moving forward.

13:01

What I really realized in my own life is that there's a quote by,

13:05

and you probably know the quote much better than I do, but it's something like

13:08

unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

13:12

And as a choleric, I hear that. And I think to myself, well,

13:16

if that's true, why on earth would I want to do that, right?

13:19

Like that is clearly inefficient.

13:22

It's clearly harmful. It's clearly not the right choice. It's clearly what's keeping me stuck,

13:29

right? And clerics love progress.

13:31

And so if that, if unforgiveness is really what's keeping me stuck,

13:35

then let's get rid of it, you know, so that I can move forward.

13:39

So, so that's really, there's a lot of other things that resonated,

13:43

but those are just a couple off the top of my head that I can,

13:45

that I can share. Yes, I talk about this experience.

13:48

So for example, in one of my episodes, I talk about this experience of being

13:53

a child and having a parent come to you.

13:55

And sometimes it's accompanied by a slap or a push or a squeeze of the arm that

14:01

in this look on the parent's face that says, say you're sorry.

14:06

And I'm wondering if you've seen that in your world as a coach now with moms

14:12

who are getting to that recognition of, oh my gosh, I've done this to my kids.

14:18

Have you seen that happen? Or is that an experience that perhaps you've had?

14:22

Yeah, I think what I teach moms and what I really spend a lot of time on with

14:26

forgiveness is forgiving ourselves, of course, but it's learning Learning how

14:30

to apologize from a like from a mother's standpoint.

14:33

So when you say all those things, like what comes up in me is like,

14:36

oh, I've totally done that. Like, I know I've done that.

14:40

And there's a lot of shame and a lot of guilt that comes with that when I realize

14:43

how that's impacted my child. And so there's forgiveness of myself that's involved. And I see this in the

14:48

moms I work with, too, this forgiveness of self that's involved when you realize

14:51

that there's something that you've done that has hurt your child.

14:55

And then the apology piece is really what I have learned in my own life as a mother.

14:59

When you recognize, okay, there's something that I've done that has hurt my child,

15:03

and I need to work on forgiving myself when I'm at that point where I've forgiven

15:08

myself, I also need to repair that connection with my child and to really dive into what apology is,

15:15

not just an I'm sorry, but a recognition of that, you know, the offense that

15:21

was committed and talking to my kids about, you know, what I did was wrong. And I'm sorry.

15:26

And not saying, but here's why I did it, you know, and not immediately going

15:30

into the explanation, just recognizing and having the humility to recognize

15:35

that and to just apologize. And I think that that step can really come once we've forgiven ourselves.

15:40

Right? And we really are at peace with that.

15:42

And we've been forgiven by the Lord and received that forgiveness from Him.

15:46

Then we can really come with humility to those we've hurt and to truly say,

15:52

I'm sorry, here's what I did wrong.

15:55

And I know that hurt you. And I'm sorry that hurt you.

15:58

And to be able to receive, and this is what can be so hard as a mom,

16:01

when you say that, oftentimes it just opens the floodgates for our kids to talk

16:07

about all of the things that have hurt them, right?

16:10

Yes. Yes. And you did this and you did this and this happened and this hurt

16:13

me and, you know, and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, and, and if you haven't done the work to work with,

16:19

to receive the Lord's forgiveness and to, and to forgive yourself in those moments,

16:24

it can be very overwhelming and can kind of just add to that shame.

16:28

You know, when you're, all you're hearing from your kids is all these other

16:31

things they're struggling with. So that's, I don't know if that answers your question, but on with all that. Yes, it does.

16:37

Because the next thing that I was going to say was then to leave space for the

16:43

response from the child. And here I'm not talking just about moms with young children.

16:50

But moms with children of all ages, moms who could be in their 80s and are now

16:56

dealing with a 60-year-old who's coming to them and saying, I don't want a relationship

17:02

with you because you did this to me when I was five.

17:04

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Absolutely.

17:07

Because one thing that I do think and I say to my clients that that's going

17:12

to happen because what you're doing is you're giving them permission.

17:16

You're being vulnerable and you're saying to them, I recognize my wrongdoing.

17:21

And I think with children of any age, oftentimes that can be this,

17:26

I can finally talk about this. Right.

17:29

Because we don't feel permission sometimes to talk about that with our parents

17:32

because of many reasons. And when we finally come forward as a parent and say, I recognize my wrongdoing.

17:40

I'm sorry for my wrongdoing. I've hurt you. And I'm sorry that I've hurt you.

17:44

It's this permission for the child. It's an unspoken permission,

17:47

right, for the child to air their grievances in a way.

17:51

And we need to to be in a place internally with ourselves so that we're ready

17:56

to receive that, like you said, to create that space for them.

17:58

And to be able to receive that from them without then going to this huge place

18:04

of shame and blame and just really hearing them, right?

18:07

Because if we're so busy in our minds and in our emotions, like,

18:10

and so weighed down by that shame that we're not going to be able to be present

18:14

and to really be able to hear the child in front of us and to really be able

18:19

to receive them because we're going to be so busy and caught up with our own

18:22

guilt and our own shame and our own worries about Yes.

18:26

And that's, I think, where emotional maturity comes in, right?

18:30

Where we as the parent will need to have created or found a place where we can

18:35

have that witness to our shame. Because shame disappears in the face of witness.

18:42

Right? Right. And I was thinking as you were speaking about cholerics wanting

18:48

to fix or solve or they see everything as a project.

18:53

So how do you as a choleric, when you're witnessing your child go through this

19:00

process of actually releasing from their body whatever they receive from you in the discipline,

19:07

in the way that you talk to them, in the shaming that they feel?

19:11

Y'all, how do you as a choleric stop yourself from taking that on as a project

19:17

or something to be for them to be fixed or something to be fixed in yourself?

19:22

Yeah, that's a great question. The first thing that has been very revolutionary

19:26

and transformative for me is recognizing what I have control over and what I don't.

19:30

Recognize, and that's part of emotional boundaries, emotional intelligence.

19:34

And it makes sense to my cleric brain, you know, when that was explained to

19:37

me, your child has their own thoughts and emotions and actions,

19:41

and you have thoughts about their emotions, but they are not yours to control.

19:46

They're not yours, you know, to own.

19:49

That was really helpful for me to really not see their emotions as a project,

19:54

to not see their reactions as a project, but really to see them and their emotions

20:00

and my own as an opportunity. Like, it's really an opportunity for me to witness.

20:04

I can witness to my children and the way that I teach them about these things

20:08

is by talking about my experience about it, my experience through it,

20:12

and by witnessing that to them and showing them,

20:16

you know, and even saying to them, I'm, you know, I'm sorry,

20:19

mommy, sorry, I make mistakes. I'm human. And I asked Jesus for forgiveness and I'm asking,

20:24

I work to forgive myself and I'm asking you for your forgiveness when you're

20:28

ready, you know, like, and that's also a big thing going back to forgiveness and with our kids.

20:33

I think oftentimes when we apologize to our children, we will say,

20:38

maybe I'm sorry, do you forgive me?

20:40

And I've changed my language to say, I'm sorry, please forgive me when you're ready.

20:45

Yes. Those three words, when you are ready. Right.

20:49

Because again, that control, it puts the control back in their hands in terms

20:54

of when they're ready to give that forgiveness.

20:59

It's been really beautiful. And so often, especially young children,

21:01

I mean, older children might need to take more time, you know.

21:04

Young children, it's really beautiful because they just don't even need very

21:07

much time, usually. Usually, sometimes mine do need a little bit of time,

21:12

but usually they just immediately are like, of course, I forgive you,

21:16

mom, you know, which I'm blessed to have that with my little ones.

21:19

But yeah, again, going back to that, giving them the space, giving them the

21:22

choice, right? Putting that back in their hands.

21:25

And like you said, not seeing that as a project.

21:27

Because, and this is what gives my choleric brain solace, I think, is I've done my part.

21:32

My part is not to force them to forgive me. My part is to admit the wrongdoing

21:37

and to ask for forgiveness when they are ready.

21:40

And that is my part. And that is what I have control over.

21:43

I don't have control over whether they forgive me or if they forgive me or when

21:47

they forgive me or how they forgive me. Yes. And if we could take exactly what you just said here into our adult relationships,

21:54

it looks very much the same. Yeah.

21:57

Right. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

22:00

And I think in my adult relationship, I mean, you know, moving from the child

22:03

to the adult, I mean, I've had plenty of examples in my own life as an adult

22:07

of things I've had to forgive. Something that resonated very much with what you said about the clerics are

22:12

very, they don't, they don't have problems setting boundaries.

22:15

They don't have problems communicating. But what I found is, well, what if you don't have the opportunity to talk to

22:22

the person that hurt you. And I struggled with that a lot as a choleric of what, like,

22:26

this person did this to me and I'm really hurt and I need to talk to them about it.

22:31

But for one reason or another, I wasn't able to.

22:34

And that was a very interesting process to work through as a choleric of how

22:40

do I, learning again, that forgiveness doesn't require the response, right?

22:45

It doesn't require the response, but the forgiveness is the letting go of the

22:49

anger towards the other and commending them to our Lord and just saying,

22:53

justice is not mine anymore, Lord. It's your justice, not mine.

22:57

And again, that right ordering, when I had that right ordering in my cleric

23:01

brain and that clarity of what the forgiveness was,

23:04

it made it so much easier to not need to hear the other person admit the wrongdoing

23:11

or to not need to talk to the other person about what they did and how they

23:16

did it and why they did it and why I was hurt and why I was wrong.

23:18

It allowed me to just really see where forgiveness fits, what is in my control

23:24

with forgiveness and what piece is mine to, what piece is my responsibility and what piece is not.

23:30

Yes, that's huge in the forgiveness process is really being clear on what's

23:34

my, what do I own and what belongs to the other person or even a group of people. Yeah, absolutely.

23:41

And I think that clarity is so huge for a cleric. When we understand that,

23:45

at least for me, when I understood that, I was like, okay, hey, I know what part is mine.

23:50

I know how to move forward. And I know how to move forward without anybody else doing anything, right?

23:55

Yes, when I think about cholerics, I think about straight line.

23:58

Like for them, it's just a straight line from point A to point Z.

24:03

You know, we're not gonna veer off on tangents or we just, we see our objective

24:08

and we're gonna go for it. So if someone hurt me and I've decided, act of the will, that I'm going to forgive

24:14

them, I'm gonna do it. And I'm not going to go talk to 10 people about it.

24:19

I'm just going to work this process that I figured out for myself.

24:23

Am I correct when I say that about cholerics? I think so.

24:27

But what I would caveat that with is that.

24:30

Once you've experienced it for the first time, right? Because once I experienced

24:35

it through a very big forgiving experience, and it was in a situation where

24:40

I couldn't talk to the other person about what had happened.

24:42

And it was something that I held on to for years, for years.

24:46

And I finally, my choleric brain was like, you're getting nowhere with this. And it was the poison.

24:51

I was literally walking around frustrated and angry all the time.

24:55

And this person, And I had no opportunity to talk to this person about it at

24:59

all. And I finally realized like what I'm doing isn't working.

25:03

So, and that's really what kind of set me on. I have to understand there's gotta

25:06

be some other way to forgive. There's gotta be something that I'm missing about forgiveness.

25:11

And when I understood more about what forgiveness truly was,

25:14

and it was like, okay, here's how I can do it.

25:17

I literally said to myself, well, heck, I might as well try it.

25:20

Like I've tried the other way and it's not working.

25:22

I might as well try it this way. Right. And then when I had that evidence,

25:27

which is very big for clerics, when I had that evidence in my own life of the

25:31

one experience of how it worked, now it's like, all right, let's just do that.

25:36

I know that that's the most efficient way. I know that that's the most clear way.

25:40

I know that that's the most like and efficiency is also very big for clerics.

25:44

Clerics and so now it's very easy for me to forgive in a way because I'm like

25:49

okay the most efficient way forward is for me to just and not to not to put

25:53

and that can also be maybe to the detriment of clerics sometimes we can be a

25:55

little impatient and hasty and sometimes we want to move through it very quickly

25:59

so to temper that as a cleric but to to know that there is a way forward,

26:04

yeah it's a huge solace and to know that there's a there is a way forward that

26:08

works is a huge Huge piece, I think, for a choleric.

26:11

Yes. So cholerics would be probably in that place where if I know how to do

26:19

it, if I figured out a way for myself that works for me,

26:22

then I can do it rinse and repeat over and over and over, right?

26:27

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Efficiency. Give me an efficient forgiveness process.

26:34

Yes, that's really great. I love that. Give me an efficient forgiveness process.

26:39

Process we'll make that like the motto of

26:42

the cholera yeah that's a great way clear and

26:45

efficient clear and efficient that's a

26:48

great way to to end this conversation i

26:51

so appreciate you coming on katherine how do people find you yeah thanks for

26:57

asking you can go to my website it's cjjcoaching.com you can also find me on

27:02

instagram at katherine.j.johnson wonderful thank you so much again for joining me.

27:09

And I look forward to just listening to this episode because there's so much

27:14

wisdom that you put in this episode that I, as a secondary choleric,

27:20

I'm definitely going to be chewing on for a while.

27:23

Thank you so much. God bless you. Thanks, Karen.