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2:17

Talk about

2:22

the raw on the 12th.

2:28

Mick Foley

2:30

cuts what's essentially a farewell promo.

2:32

Meltzer would write, fans were happy

2:34

to see him, but he didn't seem happy and it came across.

2:37

He basically said he wouldn't be around much longer. The

2:40

storyline was if Alliance won, he'd be out

2:42

of a job, but if the WWF won, he'd

2:45

also be out of a job because he didn't want to work for

2:47

Vince

2:48

that took the crowd down. He

2:50

also mentioned that the previous week when TV

2:52

was in Nassau in the Meadowlands, but

2:54

he was there both nights, but they had nothing

2:56

for him. And he seemed upset in

2:58

particular that on long Island

3:00

where he grew up, I couldn't find

3:02

a reason to get him on raw, which was a true story.

3:06

And uh,

3:07

it feels like he's probably burned out and just

3:09

ready to ride

3:12

off into the sunset. Do you remember him expressing

3:15

how frustrated he was with you at this point?

3:18

He wasn't so frustrated with me, uh, cause

3:21

I didn't do the booking, uh, the, the creative,

3:24

but it is a head scratcher. Why

3:26

on his home turf,

3:28

a big star like Mick Foley wasn't on the car

3:31

in some way. He's so versatile.

3:33

He could have done a lot of things. He could cut

3:35

a promo, get a wrestle. He could have done tags,

3:39

uh, whatever.

3:40

Uh, it's just funny to me that that couldn't be done.

3:43

And I think to me, it goes back to the fact

3:45

that,

3:46

well, he's been here a long time.

3:48

He's a, he's like that old comfortable pair of ugly house

3:50

shoes. You just don't want to throw away. Cause they, your

3:52

feet slip right into the house. She very simply,

3:54

very, very easily. I

3:57

think he was taken for granted a lot, quite

3:59

frankly.

3:59

And let's remember

4:02

when he first came to WWE,

4:05

WWF, he was

4:07

not at the top of the wish

4:10

list. And

4:12

I think that had a latent, and then

4:16

he got over despite everything around

4:19

him.

4:21

And so anyway, I

4:23

felt bad for Mick, he deserved

4:25

better, he deserved better. And

4:29

the jury had cast his

4:31

verdict, apparently.

4:33

Let's keep it moving here and let's talk

4:35

about Mick Foley. He's

4:37

doing some unique fundraising for Reign,

4:40

the Rape and Abuse and Incest National

4:42

Network. He's been working with them for a

4:45

lot of time here. And for the month

4:47

of April, he agreed anywhere in the

4:49

country, close someone's lawn,

4:51

they'll donate $5,000. So

4:54

literally, even the week of the

4:56

pay-per-view here, Mo and Alon in Baltimore,

4:59

and he's encouraging donations and said he'll

5:01

match every donation he raises this

5:03

month up to a $10,000 maximum.

5:06

I don't think

5:09

pro wrestling as a whole,

5:10

we always sort of hear

5:13

about the bad stuff. I mean, for goodness sake,

5:15

you and I have both participated in the Dark

5:17

Side of the Ring series. But as Jim Cornette says,

5:20

why don't we have a happy side of the ring? Yeah,

5:22

I saw that a couple of weeks ago, I love

5:25

that little clip. But Mick

5:27

Foley here, man, this

5:29

is a big deal, and what a great idea.

5:32

Mick is another one.

5:34

Mick does, I mean, we hear

5:36

about some of the things that Mick does.

5:38

Mick does a lot of things we don't hear about.

5:41

And you're right, man, I think wrestling

5:43

as a whole, because people love to jump

5:46

all over whatever the controversy du

5:48

jour happens to be, whether it's regarding

5:50

talent or people in the office or

5:53

anything. I mean, you just love that, right?

5:56

The touchy feely stuff, the

5:58

feel good stuff,

5:59

that actually matter aren't

6:01

nearly as interesting in social media

6:04

so they don't get the kind of awareness.

6:07

But

6:07

Mick is another perfect example

6:10

of a guy he lives to give.

6:12

He really does. I don't know if anything

6:15

brings him much more happiness than

6:18

contributing and giving back

6:20

and doing good.

6:23

Mick is a very, very impressive

6:27

and unique individual.

6:28

And I'm not talking about his

6:31

legacy in the ring. I'm talking about his legacy

6:33

as a human being. He

6:35

continued this fundraising campaign

6:37

even when he went to the UK. The

6:40

gimmick there was anyone who donates $5,000 means

6:42

he'll go to their house and spend at least

6:44

two hours there when he goes to that country.

6:47

And I don't

6:49

know man, I just hope he

6:51

gets a little more recognition for

6:53

all the good stuff that he's doing. What

6:57

an amazing performer and human being to

6:59

your point. I think

7:01

doing these podcasts these last few years I've

7:03

had a newfound appreciation and he's

7:06

become a top five guy for me just

7:08

based on anywhere you put him in wrestling. He

7:11

exceeded expectations whether it

7:13

was as Cactus Jack or Dude Love

7:15

or Mankind or just as Mick Foley certainly

7:18

in the commissioner role just on and

7:20

on and on. But then you see the stuff

7:22

that he does outside of the ring like this. Not

7:26

just wrestling. The world needs more dudes like

7:28

Mick Foley. They

7:31

do indeed. I'm playing with my cough button here. Is

7:33

this the little red one with the line

7:35

through the speaker? You know

7:39

what's funny Eric? We have the same board but mine's

7:41

in a cabinet because on my end my

7:44

mute button is the word mute on

7:46

the software that you're looking at on screen.

7:50

Oh shit. I told you I was a high tech redneck.

7:53

Damn how

7:56

long have we been doing this? And I just realized

7:58

I can cough without offending.

7:59

anybody, this is an

8:02

awesome, and you see, you learn something

8:05

every single

8:06

day. I love that. Even I on

8:09

this show learns, especially I

8:11

on this show, learn something new. Every time

8:14

we do it, I love this. Something else in the news. Hogan

8:16

worked with Bubba the Love Sponge and Raising Money

8:18

for Unity, a group that provides money

8:20

and goods to plant city, farm charities. Hogan

8:23

allowed a local Chevrolet dealer to design

8:25

a Hulk Hogan limited edition Camaro

8:28

and they raffled it off, raising more than a hundred

8:30

thousand dollars.

8:32

Uh, this is

8:34

not uncommon that Hulk Hogan does charity

8:37

work. I know back in the day, he

8:39

was the guy who was out front doing it for the WWE.

8:42

Long before Cena was making wishes, Hogan

8:45

was too,

8:46

but even in the later years, he's still

8:48

doing that. I mean, since you and I have been

8:50

doing the podcast, I think he raffled

8:53

off or auctioned off the old WCW

8:56

Hulk Hogan Viper that everybody

8:58

remembers from early WCW stuff, and

9:01

that was also for charity. This has

9:03

been a big part. I mean, Hulk Hogan loves

9:05

combining cars

9:06

and charities for kids, right?

9:08

He does. And

9:10

you know, it's, it's a little harder for

9:12

Hulk to get around

9:15

and do some of things that he used to love doing. And

9:17

he did love doing them. I, I've

9:20

been a part of a bystander,

9:23

you know, been

9:25

along for the ride, so to speak, to watch, but I've

9:27

seen him do so many things that people have

9:29

never heard about. Yeah. Because he, and

9:31

look, you know, Hulk is a, at

9:33

the core of his being, he is

9:36

a promoter.

9:37

Most

9:38

great

9:39

talents like Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan

9:41

are,

9:44

that's what they've grown up doing. Look how well Rick,

9:46

I think Rick is more. Is

9:48

better known now around the world than

9:51

he was at the peak of his career. Yes.

9:53

Easily

9:54

by a mile in, in, in pop culture.

9:57

Everybody knows who Rick Flair is.

9:59

Hulk Hogan.

10:01

And

10:02

while he does just like Rick promote

10:04

himself or did he used to a lot more than he does now.

10:08

But there's also the flip side where

10:10

he hands down throughout his entire

10:12

career a lot of things for charity

10:15

and sometimes not even in an organized fashion

10:19

but

10:19

in a very local level.

10:22

Let's talk about the next match boy this one

10:25

is gonna be something else.

10:27

Rick Flair and Mick Foley are gonna be in an I

10:29

quit match and unbelievably

10:31

Rick Flair wins. They

10:33

got 12 minutes and 47 seconds.

10:35

Foley goes for Mr. Socko right away

10:38

but then he puts barbed wire around it.

10:40

Flair uses a low blow but puts the barbar

10:43

sock on his hand and starts chopping Foley

10:45

which of course opens up his chest. Foley

10:48

brings barbed wire bored out and before

10:51

long Flair is bleeding everywhere. By six

10:54

minutes in Foley's already brought out the thumbtacks

10:56

and Flair winds up in the thumbtacks.

10:59

Next comes the barbed wire baseball bat. Foley

11:02

drove that into Flair's face. Flair's

11:05

refusing to quit. Flair knocks

11:07

Foley off the apron where he takes the old nasty

11:09

plunge bump with his head hitting a

11:11

garbage can. And they send

11:13

out trainers and agents and they wave off

11:15

the match and the bell rang. Flair

11:18

was furious saying Foley never

11:20

said I quit so in his mind the match wasn't

11:22

over. He kept rubbing the barbar

11:24

bat in Foley's face but Foley wouldn't quit

11:27

and Flair acts like he's going after the eye and

11:29

Malina throws in the towel for Foley. Flair

11:32

stated he didn't accept that as a win and started

11:34

to threaten to mess up Malina's face with the barbar

11:37

bat and then Foley quit. Meltzer

11:39

said it was a good match gave it three and a half

11:41

stars.

11:43

Interesting booking especially to see this

11:45

much violence barbed wire bats barbed

11:47

wire boards thumbtacks

11:50

and now a baby face which

11:52

I guess is what Flair is here

11:54

threatening to disfigure a woman

11:57

in order to make a heel quit.

12:00

It's a crazy book and walk me through it.

12:02

Not a fan, not

12:05

a fan of it. Didn't like it. Um,

12:07

yeah, it's, it's interesting. You're

12:10

the guy that's critiquing this

12:12

match that you're reading from says what

12:14

a great match this is. When

12:17

they talk about, you know, Oh gosh, what a great

12:19

match, uh,

12:21

Saruda and Baba

12:23

had back in 1973 or whatever. Um,

12:29

it's, it's, it's, it's not, it's a, it's

12:31

a hardcore garbage match,

12:33

uh, with a lot of gimmicks.

12:35

Um, the

12:39

story of, of Mick

12:41

saying I quit is a good story.

12:45

I'm getting old man. I'm getting old crotchety.

12:47

I'm not a fan of this stuff. I don't,

12:50

I just,

12:51

I don't think you need that

12:53

much gore and crap. I really don't.

12:56

I'm not a, not a big fan of it. And

12:59

wasn't a fan of it at this point. Didn't need

13:01

all that.

13:04

No, I get that. I, uh, I know a lot

13:06

of fans are turned off by the violence

13:08

that's here, but it is,

13:11

um, I mean, I don't know that you could really

13:13

do this Foley style story.

13:16

Without some of this violence, could

13:18

you, I mean, what would you have done differently? I think you could have.

13:20

Yeah. I think you definitely could have. It's just

13:22

in how you tell the story and there's other ways

13:25

to do it. Um,

13:27

without all the gore,

13:29

it's a matter of taste. It's a

13:31

matter of taste and it's a matter of, of

13:34

what, what you like. And

13:36

I

13:38

think that more people were probably

13:40

turned off by it. Then

13:44

going, Oh, Hey, yeah, gosh, I want to see

13:46

more thumbtacks and barbed wire

13:48

in the face. Uh, again,

13:50

some people like, you know, chocolate ice cream.

13:53

Some people like, uh,

13:55

strawberry shortcake.

13:59

flair with this violence, you

14:02

know, in terms of, you know, the barbed wire

14:04

and the thumbtacks, this is not what most

14:06

people associate with the nature voice style,

14:08

but

14:09

here he is. Was he hesitant to

14:11

do something like this? I don't think Rick was hesitant.

14:14

Rick did it. Um, but

14:16

I, I, again, I'm just sitting there dumbfounded

14:19

that, oh, this was a great match and this

14:21

was excellent. I probably, because

14:23

it had two of his favorite people that call them

14:25

all the time and tell them how great they are. Um,

14:29

that that's why he liked the match because when

14:31

you look at what made Rick flair, great was

14:33

Rick flares matches. And his

14:36

work is in ring work, not his, his

14:39

gore and in the

14:41

use of other things to dress it up

14:44

and, you know, two of my favorite people in

14:46

Mick Foley and Rick flair, and I've

14:48

told Mick this before it's like, Hey man, I get

14:51

it. And I think Mick Foley

14:53

is one of the greatest workers ever. One of the greatest

14:55

talents this business has ever had and

14:58

an extremely intelligent, bright guy,

15:02

Mick, Mick likes one thing. I like something

15:04

else. So to each his own

15:06

for me, not

15:07

crazy about it.

15:10

How was Rick after the match where Rick and

15:12

Foley on good terms,

15:14

did they let by? I mean, I know these days they're

15:16

fine.

15:17

They're professional. Yeah.

15:20

Professional is what they were. Do

15:22

you remember who would have been the agent or who would have helped

15:24

come up with the only way that we're going to get Foley

15:27

to quit as if he threatens to hurt

15:29

Molina?

15:30

Oh, I have no idea.

15:31

None at all. What

15:33

do you think about that creative in and of itself

15:35

that that's what gets it done that Foley

15:37

can't be beat and he won't quit, but that's,

15:40

that's the line.

15:41

I think it was kind of low class.

15:44

I didn't like it.

15:47

Okay.

15:48

To take it, to take it to that extreme. I

15:51

didn't think he needed to do that. What

15:53

did Vince think of a match like that with all

15:55

the violence?

15:56

I would have to believe

15:59

that he would probably. the air on

16:01

the

16:03

side of pretty much what I just aired on. Yeah.

16:08

Maybe liked it, but I don't see him looking

16:10

at that going, oh yeah, that's awesome.

16:13

Was there a concern amongst any of the locker

16:16

room that even though this isn't technically

16:18

an ECW match, was

16:20

there a concern that perhaps, oh, this

16:23

is what they're going to expect us to do on that side?

16:28

I don't think so. I just, you

16:31

know, it was unnecessary.

16:37

I guess is the best way to put it in my opinion.

16:40

You've heard me talk about it for years. AG1,

16:43

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17:23

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17:26

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17:29

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17:31

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17:33

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17:36

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17:40

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17:42

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slash foley. That's drinkag1.com

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slash foley. Check it out. You'll

18:45

be glad you did. It's revealed that the

18:47

mystery network guy who's been tormenting

18:49

you and Hulk Hogan is

18:52

Mick Foley.

18:54

He cuts a promo that they're dropping TNA

18:56

and starting up a new promotion called Impact Wrestling

18:59

where the focus will be on wrestling inside the

19:01

ring. The first new star

19:03

he's bringing in is China.

19:07

China is going to team with Kurt against

19:10

Jeff and Karen Jarrett at the Sacrifice

19:12

Show.

19:13

Lots of unpack here.

19:15

Mick Foley is the payoff here. It's

19:17

good. You can talk. One

19:20

of the best promos ever.

19:21

Was there ever any discussion, preliminary

19:24

or otherwise, about

19:25

putting Hulk in

19:27

a match with Foley? No.

19:30

No. Hulk could barely... When

19:34

Hulk was... This was the

19:36

beginning of a really dark period

19:39

physically.

19:41

I

19:42

mean, Hulk had been in a lot of negative

19:44

things and been involved with a lot of negative... There was a lot

19:46

going on in Hulk's life with the divorce and other

19:50

issues that had nothing to do with wrestling.

19:53

But he was in a ton of pain. This is when

19:55

the back was really, really starting.

19:58

This

19:58

was before the 17th century.

19:59

I

20:01

think he had had a couple by then, by 2011. But

20:04

physically, like when I would show up at the, oftentimes

20:07

I would fly into Tampa the

20:09

night before, stay at a hotel,

20:12

Hulk would swing by, pick me up, or I'd meet him at his

20:14

house, and then we would drive together to Orlando

20:17

for the show.

20:18

And we

20:19

would pull up to the south stage at Disney,

20:22

and it took Hulk 10

20:24

minutes just to get out of the car,

20:27

so there was no thought of matches

20:29

at this time. And by the way, the move,

20:31

let's talk about McFully though, is the network

20:34

representative. That was, whose idea

20:37

was that? You ask. No,

20:39

you didn't, but I'll tell you anyway. That was

20:41

my idea.

20:42

They're bad. Whether you, I don't know if you like it

20:44

or not. I wasn't going to ask because you

20:47

legitimately said, I didn't have anything to do

20:49

with creative in this era. No, no, no,

20:51

no, no, but that move wasn't for

20:54

this show.

20:55

Okay. That move was a, that

20:57

was a bigger move that would

20:59

have impacted all of TV. That was, that

21:01

was a sub, that was a subject that

21:04

we had been talking about for weeks or months. How

21:07

do we, you know, create an authority

21:09

figure that doesn't feel like every other

21:11

authority figure, because even by 2011, the

21:14

authority figure thing was way overdone,

21:16

and I didn't want to be involved with it.

21:18

It was tired, especially for me as in

21:21

my character. Nobody wanted to see that anymore.

21:24

So we thought about who could that be? And

21:26

Scott Fishman, who was at Spike

21:28

TV at the time, the television

21:31

guy, not the journalist,

21:33

was really big on Mick. And

21:36

I was too, obviously, because Mick could, that's

21:38

a role that's perfect for Mick. And

21:41

so yeah, I had, I think I had to convince Mick

21:43

to do it. I don't think Mick was really excited

21:46

about it when I first pitched it to him.

21:48

Matt, that people are still talking about. What

21:50

man? This is a loaded show. Edge pins

21:53

Mick Foley in a hardcore match in 14 minutes

21:55

and 37 seconds. I

21:59

mean, people still. talk about the one spot, but

22:01

they do everything. Melser

22:04

would say Foley took abuse early with a hard

22:06

cookie sheet and broiler pan shots to the head,

22:08

followed by a dropkick of a sign

22:11

into his face. Since this stuff

22:13

hasn't been done here much of late, it wasn't

22:15

boring comedy. Like they had turned it into

22:17

before. Edged beard Foley,

22:19

but then sold it because Foley took off his

22:21

flannel shirt

22:22

and revealed he had hidden barbed wire underneath

22:25

Foley whipped him with the barbed wire and then got

22:28

a barbed wire, uh,

22:29

bat that he had hidden under the ring

22:31

steps lead, a ran in and

22:34

jumped on Foley's back with lead

22:36

on his back. He ran towards edge and did

22:38

his running clothesline spot where all three go over

22:40

the top rope together, and she landed

22:42

right on her butt, which I suppose is better than

22:44

landing right on her head. Foley

22:46

used the neck breaker on the entrance ramp

22:48

edge would hip toss Foley into the ring steps,

22:51

and he's going to take a hard bump on his hip here. Then

22:54

he whips Foley into the steps

22:56

and took a header and then edge

22:58

pulled the table, set it up near the ring. He

23:00

whips Foley on the entrance ramp and he hits

23:02

his head on the, uh, uh,

23:05

the, the grading pretty hard and

23:07

he starts to pour lighter fluid on Foley.

23:10

We know this is teasing my

23:12

goodness. Ed's DDT's Foley

23:15

on a, on a broiler pan after Lita

23:17

had him distracted and

23:19

then edge hits Foley in the chest and the

23:21

back with that barbed wire bat

23:22

and tears up his head with it, gives him a face buster

23:25

on it

23:26

Foley then pours thumb tax out and

23:28

gives edge a back suplex on the thumb

23:30

tax. So now edge has tax

23:32

sticking all in his back

23:34

Foley pulls out Mr. Sacco, but wraps

23:37

him in barbed wire and puts both

23:39

Lita and edge in the claw.

23:41

Lita is now bleeding from the mouth

23:43

and the finish would see Foley pour the lighter fluid

23:45

on the table.

23:46

Lita hits Foley in the knees with that barbed wire

23:48

bat. And

23:49

now Lita has lit the table on fire

23:51

and edge Spears Foley, who's on the apron,

23:54

both go through the flaming table

23:56

and thankfully that's it. Edge wins.

23:59

And gives the fans would all give Foley a standing

24:02

ovation after the match. And I think

24:04

it's now

24:05

regarded as Mick Foley's WrestleMania

24:08

moment,

24:09

but my God fire at a WrestleMania

24:12

thumbtacks at a WrestleMania,

24:15

this is unbelievable.

24:18

Hated it.

24:20

I know you do. I can't believe it happened.

24:23

I can't believe Vince allowed it,

24:24

but the spectacle of this,

24:27

it's unbelievable. The

24:29

spectacle and the amount of

24:32

effort put into it and the performance by

24:34

everyone involved was by

24:39

far, no one can

24:41

knock that and no one can, can

24:44

say that

24:47

wasn't an unbelievable performance

24:49

by every single person involved. I

24:52

just, you know,

24:55

you know me, I'm not a fan of the thumbtacks.

24:57

I'm not a fan. I was fucking fire. Oh

24:59

boy. I liked something on fire. Crashed through

25:01

it. It goes out. Um,

25:05

I just, I, I was, I,

25:07

not my cup of tea,

25:09

not my cup of tea, not something that

25:11

I'm a big fan of, you know, you watch it

25:13

sometimes and you go, holy shit, crash

25:15

and burn, I always, um, am

25:19

concerned for the safety of

25:21

the, of the talent involved and watching

25:24

it, you know, maybe cringe all over again. But

25:28

two guys that put every,

25:30

you know, when you talk about putting everything

25:33

on the line, these guys put

25:35

everything on the line and

25:37

put their bodies through unbelievable

25:39

punishment to deliver a spectacle

25:42

that will go down, you know, as

25:44

one of those matches that people will always bring

25:47

up and recall. Um, again,

25:50

it's just not my cup of tea. And, uh,

25:54

there's sometimes I, is, is I

25:56

get older that

25:58

I

25:59

appreciate.

25:59

it, uh, less.

26:04

What did, uh, what did Foley think?

26:07

I think that Foley and edge both loved

26:09

it. I think that they were, were very happy

26:12

with it and they should have been proud of it. I mean,

26:14

they left their heart and soul out there.

26:17

When they come back through the curtain after a match

26:19

like that, we're in the middle of a WrestleMania,

26:22

but boy, this one still stands out. People are

26:24

still talking about it to this day, but

26:27

it's not the main event. And it's not

26:29

exactly everyone's cup of tea. Is

26:32

this a standing ovation and, and

26:34

gorilla

26:35

does fit. No idea. Yeah, no

26:38

idea. I really don't remember. I remember

26:41

everybody was more concerned for their wellbeing

26:43

than anything. And they may have, it was,

26:45

it was that kind of a match that people

26:47

appreciate what they did for the business. What'd

26:49

you think of later bleeding from the mouth?

26:52

Um, you

26:54

know, it was Hollywood shit. It was, it

26:57

looked cool though, considering the barbed wire.

27:00

Socko thing, right? It's a nice little payoff,

27:02

but it is female violence

27:04

with blood.

27:05

Yeah. And not a fan of it at

27:08

all.

27:09

What about, um, edge

27:11

here as a performer, you know, edge had just

27:13

beaten John Cena for the world title in January.

27:16

Now he's got this big WrestleMania moment

27:19

with Foley and fucking fire. Is

27:22

it, I mean, this is when edge is really

27:24

hitting his stride as a performer. I mean, he

27:26

has really leveled his game up and now

27:29

it is undeniable. Edge

27:31

is a top guy.

27:33

I thought it was undeniable even before

27:35

this. I think that edge had really

27:38

come into his own and doing

27:40

this in, in some ways, you

27:42

know, people talk about this was edges moment

27:45

and really did him. I think

27:47

that in some ways edge did

27:50

Mick,

27:51

uh, just as much of a favor in this

27:53

match as anything. Well, Jr. Mick

27:55

and Kevin Sullivan, speaking of a Sully,

27:58

as you would say, would even join up with buzz. Sawyer

28:00

and they would call themselves Sullivan's

28:02

slaughter house. Oh, what a

28:05

treat a trio, but great for cactus

28:07

because as you said, he's under that learning tree,

28:09

uh, especially of having

28:11

Kevin Sullivan in his corner. Right.

28:13

Yeah. Oh, Sully is a great, uh, psychologist,

28:16

Booker creator content.

28:18

And, uh, Mick

28:20

was still very young at that time, very impressionable.

28:24

So I'm like, he was under the right limb

28:26

of the learning tree, quite frankly, with Kevin. They,

28:28

they, and they got long. Uh,

28:31

you know, like any other creative entity,

28:33

they don't always agree, but they

28:35

always agreed that they're, they're traveling in the right

28:37

direction and that they're doing this because

28:39

of how, what they believe in. And as

28:42

far as the product was concerned, Sully's

28:45

old school as hell. And, and Mick

28:47

was too, to a very large degree.

28:49

Yeah. Bam, bam, Bigelow would end up replacing,

28:52

uh, Kevin Sullivan in that group. So

28:54

I'm sorry. I saw you're in that group. So you have bam,

28:56

bam, you have Sullivan and you have

28:58

Mick Foley. And what a, what

29:00

a group of talented individuals

29:03

at that time. Yeah. It was a good, great collection

29:05

of heels and, uh,

29:06

guys that were hungry.

29:09

I don't think anybody in that group was hungrier than Nick.

29:12

Nick very motivated to be a

29:14

success, take better care of his

29:16

family, you know, uh,

29:18

better than the normal wrestling lot. So,

29:21

uh, he was very, very motivated.

29:24

It's Mick and everybody's always been that

29:26

way, even when he made it, when he was

29:28

quote unquote over in his WWF

29:30

years, uh, he still worked

29:33

like he was broke. And that's

29:35

the one thing we all use a lot of guys used to laugh about that. You

29:37

know, police taking these bumps, like he's

29:39

broke. That's just his style.

29:42

He wanted to make it big money and he had big money.

29:46

Uh, he, he, he wrestled like this is

29:48

almost like a audition every

29:51

time out, which I found to be really admirable.

29:56

It's announced that the, uh, Gillespie

29:58

agency are there.

29:59

actually make the announcement that Mick Foley

30:02

has signed a short-term deal with TNA.

30:04

It's a combination of both a deal with TNA

30:07

and spike TV.

30:09

Tell me how that deal came together. I mean,

30:12

this is a big time name and

30:14

a big star and a big signing. And

30:17

somebody you probably once upon a time thought was

30:19

unattainable for TNA. And now here you are,

30:21

you landed

30:23

here in late summer, 2008.

30:25

How does this come together? You know,

30:27

I don't know the exact ins and outs of what happened

30:29

with him in WWE, but obviously

30:31

he became on the open market

30:33

and there's no bigger fan of Mick

30:35

Foley than Jeff Jarrett.

30:38

You know,

30:39

me and Mick, I feel like we almost started

30:41

together because he came to Tennessee. I

30:44

mean, in the late eighties and then, you

30:46

know, we paired him up with

30:48

Robert Fuller and then he went out to Texas and

30:51

had success there. So the

30:53

first two territories he really worked were, were

30:55

for my family. So we go way, way back, but

30:58

to see him evolve as a character and obviously

31:00

the, the taker match,

31:03

the hell in the cell and the evolution, but his

31:05

promo skills and, and,

31:07

and, and his,

31:08

yeah, by this time his legendary

31:11

run, when he came on the open market,

31:14

it was an absolute

31:16

no-brainer. And he wasn't real sure how

31:18

he wanted to kind of navigate his career

31:21

at the time.

31:22

Maybe this is the beginning of the spoken word tours.

31:24

He had come off,

31:26

I don't know how many books he had written at this time,

31:29

one or two, but Mick just

31:32

obviously the world knows how successful

31:35

and introspective

31:37

and articulate he is, but

31:39

to get him to be a part of

31:41

the brand, again was

31:44

a huge win and Mick's an easy

31:46

negotiation, you know, very

31:48

bloom. I've said it many,

31:50

many times. He's top

31:53

five smartest guys in the history of professional

31:56

wrestling. I

31:59

say that. But with

32:01

the facts, not an opinion. And

32:06

Barry and myself's conversations

32:09

and to get Mick on board, Spike

32:12

loved it. It was another, because

32:14

he had a relationship with Viacom. So

32:17

it was a win-win-win. And as we got into

32:19

the Man of Emophia, in a lot of ways,

32:21

Mick was

32:25

super valuable to that story. You

32:27

know, I had

32:29

often thought

32:33

that maybe in AEW,

32:35

maybe we should have this very bizarre

32:38

character like a mankind.

32:40

But then when I see Mick Foley do it,

32:43

I'm thinking, no one can top

32:45

that. No one can pull that off. No one

32:47

can pull it off like him. Anything

32:50

that we would do, or anything that

32:52

would be done today would be compared to him and

32:54

wouldn't be good.

32:57

I mean, even when they did abyss in

32:59

TNA, a lot of people said, oh,

33:01

that's a mankind and cane ripoff.

33:04

I mean, I

33:05

think people always sort of look to

33:07

the original and say, hey, that's

33:09

as good as it's going to get. Right.

33:11

Well, listen, this

33:14

shows you where we're at in life at this point. Mick

33:16

Foley goes out on his MySpace

33:18

account and writes how he needs

33:21

to be in better shape to keep up with you. Do

33:24

you think that was just his real feelings?

33:27

Yes,

33:29

he was being completely honest because

33:31

he came to me at least five times and said, listen,

33:34

man, you got, you got to slow down. You

33:36

got to be less intense. I

33:39

want to make it through the whole match. So you're going to have to take

33:41

it easy on me. And he didn't mean by bumping

33:44

him around. He didn't care about getting pumped. The

33:46

problem was how intense I was,

33:48

how hard I was going to wrestle. Kurt,

33:51

the bigger question for you is, did you ever have a

33:53

MySpace account? No,

33:55

I never had one. I don't think I

33:57

want one either. Kurt, you have enough accounts. The

34:00

even bigger question is, do you even know what MySpace

34:03

is? I have no idea. That's okay.

34:07

I'm not a computer guy. Facebook

34:12

took over the world. I don't get apps.

34:14

I call 800 numbers, okay? And

34:17

I get mad when they don't want to answer or they

34:19

tell you to go straight to an app. I'm like, I don't

34:22

do apps. You know, just talk to me. 800 numbers,

34:25

like 800 fat girls where it's just

34:27

so easy to stick it in. Yeah, your credit

34:29

card, that is. Okay. Well,

34:31

listen, on impact for some reason, you

34:33

take on Jared and Foley in a three-way

34:36

and you walk out to the ring with the title

34:39

or mafia members. Eric Young is also

34:41

the referee. And at the end, you put the ankle

34:43

lock on Foley and Eric

34:45

Young rings the bell claiming Mick gave up even

34:47

though Foley was yelling, no, no, no. I

34:51

mean, not exactly what you're looking at to sell the upcoming

34:53

pay-per-view, is it?

34:55

No, man. We should have had an all-out

34:57

bra. A no contest. It

35:00

should have been a brawl to the end. I

35:02

believe that Mick and I should have been double,

35:05

you know, double countdown, count

35:07

out. Yeah. Something

35:10

that would continue the match to the pay-per-view. Keep

35:13

the ankle lock and having the match fixed.

35:16

You know, Eric Young, you know, saying he tapped

35:18

out when he didn't, it was just a little

35:20

weird. Well, we're going to talk about

35:22

what's next. We should mention though that

35:25

his contract status is

35:28

in jeopardy, at least according to the observer.

35:31

It's written on the May 5th edition that Mick's

35:33

contract was due to expire and he hasn't

35:35

signed a renewal

35:37

and his deal isn't due until the

35:39

fall.

35:40

But it feels like that means he was originally

35:43

signed to, I guess what we might call a short-term

35:46

deal, 18 months or so.

35:48

Does that sound right? When he first? Maybe two

35:50

years.

35:51

Maybe. I don't remember the exact date

35:54

Conrad. That's too much minutiae

35:57

for that too many months ago. But

35:59

I mean, a little bit.

35:59

up,

36:00

I was lucky to get him hired. There

36:03

was no, uh, well, we're going to do three years or

36:05

five years or whatever. Let's just

36:07

get his ass a Jersey and

36:09

get him on the team, get him in the locker room, let

36:12

everybody see what he can do. Cause

36:14

he was so motivated to, to

36:17

run with this opportunity.

36:19

Uh,

36:20

and that's, I always appreciated that of him.

36:23

So, uh, but I think maybe on

36:25

the said thing, it was just

36:27

a matter of, uh,

36:30

sometimes I think said it's tolerance

36:32

for the travel and his

36:35

tolerance for the business in general

36:37

at times were not his strong suit.

36:40

They were not his cup of tea. So,

36:42

uh, any wonder, you know, instead of

36:45

said, had been able to stay healthy and stay

36:47

on active consistently, how

36:50

great he could have been and how much money he would have drawn,

36:52

how much more money he would have drawn if

36:54

that would have been able to occur. I guess

36:58

what I wanted to ask about was, did you guys eventually get to a place where you would

37:00

say, you know, or Vince would say, Hey, as a rule of thumb, you know,

37:05

if we're going to bring

37:06

a guy in, we need to sign in for at least I'm freestyling

37:08

three years because it's going to take us a year

37:10

to figure out what the hell to

37:12

do with him. And then hopefully,

37:14

you know,

37:15

blah, blah, blah. Was there some sort of method to the madness

37:17

in terms of contract links back then that you guys

37:19

fell into like a new normal as a rule

37:22

of thumb, we'll do this or not so much. I

37:24

don't think so much. I think, uh, you know,

37:26

what turned the table from mix, uh, is McMahon

37:29

sneaking into

37:34

the studio and watching us do that interview

37:36

we did that sit down with he and I, where

37:39

he ended up giving me the mandible claw. I'm

37:42

still not over Conrad. I'm sure he's

37:44

traumatic. I'm upset about it right

37:46

now. Uh, glad I'm wearing darks

37:48

again. I'm kidding.

37:51

Uh, so I short term deal. Look,

37:55

we're going to know, first of all, visit one hiring.

38:02

We'll give them a chance to let me see what

38:04

it's like to have my heart broken by somebody I really

38:06

had high expectations

38:08

for. And I personally had made an emotional

38:11

investment with Ann. But

38:16

I think our thought was, if

38:18

we're going to get anything out of it, we'll

38:22

know within the two years, around

38:24

the two years, at least two years,

38:27

we should know by then what we

38:29

got. Is he going to be a baby

38:31

face? We thought he was always going to be a heel. I

38:34

signed him because I wanted him

38:37

to work with the Undertaker. I needed

38:39

a six foot four inch heel to match

38:41

up with a seven foot baby face. Just

38:44

do the frigging math. You

38:46

know Undertaker needs to be put in jeopardy. The

38:48

baby face cannot survive unless

38:50

they have a viable heel that

38:53

puts that said baby face in

38:55

jeopardy. Puts him in the deep water and tries

38:57

to drown. And so

39:00

that's how I look at that scenario with Mick. If

39:02

we can't figure something out for him in two years,

39:06

then the self

39:08

fulfilled prophecy comes true. He

39:11

just didn't have it to make it in WWE, which we all

39:13

know was not true.

39:16

Let's talk about

39:18

when he does return, he's coming back as dude love

39:21

and on TV, the new age outlaws are

39:23

going to destroy him

39:24

after he pins Billy Gunn in a one on one

39:26

match. This

39:29

is obviously the beginning of an angle with the new

39:31

age outlaws, but

39:33

some folks online are worried. What

39:36

is the future of Foley here with the

39:38

company? And

39:40

since he was out in protest and he's back

39:42

and getting double teamed like this, a

39:44

lot of people are wondering, was

39:47

he sending feelers out on the WCW side

39:49

of things?

39:50

Did you ever worry that, hey,

39:52

this might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

39:55

He's ready to move on.

39:56

Well, how's he going to move on Conrad with the signing of

39:58

five year extension? is that going to

40:00

work? Where's he going to go?

40:03

You're under contract.

40:04

You've committed.

40:05

We're paying you. We're paying you a lot of money.

40:08

You're being booked a lot. You

40:09

will all these paper views we've talked about here today.

40:11

He got paid for all those, by the

40:13

way.

40:14

I got paid good. So I

40:16

don't know where he would have gone. So

40:18

no, I don't think there was any after-engine. The after-engine

40:21

was simply, let's get him past

40:23

this

40:24

and refocus

40:26

on doing his work. If

40:28

you need a week or two or a month, whatever,

40:31

we're going to give it to you. But

40:34

after, after, after missing two days

40:36

of TV, he's back

40:38

at work, but that's what he needed

40:41

at that time.

40:42

So I thought it worked. I thought it

40:44

worked out as good as it could under the very

40:47

uncartable situation.

40:49

We should, we should talk about

40:53

where you think Foley ranks, like

40:55

on the all-time list.

40:59

Of workers?

41:00

Yeah, just as far as in-ring performers,

41:02

personas in the business, just participants

41:05

in the wrestling industry. Like I

41:07

have to admit, even before I

41:09

started working with him on the podcast,

41:12

I sort of came around and thought, you know, a

41:14

lot of people should have him on their Mount Rushmore.

41:16

Like the dude was the

41:19

funniest commissioner. Right.

41:20

He did fine at color commentary.

41:22

He was a good GM.

41:25

He was a great, he wrote great books. Now

41:27

he does great podcasts. He does incredible one-man

41:29

shows. Right. He pulled off a

41:32

babyface, you know, boyhood dream

41:35

character that most people would have thought never had a chance

41:37

and dude love. He gave it a hardened

41:39

edge. He got over a crazy

41:42

maniacal, sadistic cactus shack.

41:45

He did the crazy death match stuff. And

41:47

then he did,

41:48

you know, really feel good stuff

41:50

with, uh, with some of his other work and then Mick

41:52

Foley and hope this is your life and

41:54

the pairing with Austin and the pairing with rock. Then

41:57

just the mankind character, one set of entrance

41:59

music.

41:59

other set of exit, pulling his own hair out, a mandible

42:02

claw, like the dude could, you

42:05

know, wrestle the undertaker or Sean Michaels

42:07

or mill mascaras. And

42:10

he was willing to do whatever. And you've

42:12

talked a lot about how the,

42:14

you know, kids these days are taking too many

42:16

risks and blah, blah, blah. Maybe there's

42:18

no better example of that than Mick Foley,

42:20

who did all of that craziness

42:22

in his twenties and like very, very

42:25

early thirties. Yeah.

42:27

Uh, but I've come around

42:29

on him. Maybe if he, even if he's not in your Mount

42:31

Rushmore, he's got to be top 10 all time contributor

42:34

to wrestling. Yeah. Top 10. If

42:36

you talk about contributors to wrestling,

42:38

he is top 10.

42:39

Yes.

42:41

Uh, it's funny. We always talk about the Mount

42:43

Rushmore. Well, you have to define your Mount Rushmore.

42:46

Yes. Workers best promo

42:48

best all time, uh,

42:50

best longevity. Um,

42:53

I, it's just, it's very, very hard to do that.

42:55

One of the challenges or I guess some feedback

42:57

too, that fans have called or noticed

43:00

or

43:00

whatever the case may be is that it seems like whoever

43:03

was the champion in TNA, you

43:05

know, they had a lot of control and then

43:07

you always typically had at least three people that

43:10

were a different authority figures and

43:12

the company as well. Do you feel like that

43:14

as a result of that, there was a big logic

43:17

gap sometimes in TNA? Yeah,

43:19

because the champion always called the shots and

43:22

the champion was always right. The champion always

43:24

said what would go

43:25

on. It was kind of weird because

43:27

we did have authority figures that we should

43:30

have been listening to

43:31

and following, but the champion usually did whatever

43:33

he wanted to do. Well,

43:35

Meltzer goes on to say Kurt said Nash

43:38

Booker T and Steiner are willing to put their titles

43:40

up for grabs for the fans entertainment. He

43:42

said with Jeff Jarrett at home and sting licking

43:44

his wounds, thousands of miles away, there's only

43:47

one person left to deal with.

43:48

That's Mick Foley.

43:50

He asked, what does Mick Foley really

43:52

do?

43:53

He said he lets the inmates run the asylum.

43:55

And he's not the wrestler he once was. He said

43:57

that he just taking up space in a.

44:00

sweatpants,

44:01

Foley's music then interrupted.

44:03

Angle's whole promo was disguised as

44:05

a heel promo, but in reality,

44:07

it was propaganda that matches the reality

44:10

of TNA that the millionaires club

44:12

had created and that management has enabled.

44:15

Were you worried that they kept booking Mick in

44:17

the ring with you at this point, Kurt? No,

44:20

I mean, listen, Mick, no matter

44:22

what you think about Mick or whether he was over

44:24

the hill or whatever, Mick

44:26

is an experienced wrestler. He's

44:28

been in the ring for numerous years, 30 something

44:31

years. He can kind of promo better than anybody

44:34

else. He'd go in that ring, even if

44:36

he didn't wrestle for 10 years and he could still have

44:38

a great match. I didn't, I wasn't that

44:40

concerned that Mick was in the ring and, you

44:43

know, it wouldn't have mattered to me if we would

44:45

have wrestled 25 times or 50 times. I,

44:48

you know, getting in the ring with Mick Foley, I was

44:51

never concerned about.

44:53

By now, you know that Mick and I both

44:55

like to save money. He's frugal, McDougall,

44:58

and I've been known to save a dollar or two, but

45:00

let me give you a little pro tip on saving

45:02

money because that's the old thing we're looking

45:05

for, right? It's like we've always heard. It's not

45:07

how much you make, but how you save. Well,

45:09

maybe you're like me and you fallen for a good

45:11

deal here and there or so we thought

45:14

try it free for 30 days. Well,

45:17

that's enough time to try it and

45:19

then completely forget about it. I have

45:21

to admit I did this before

45:23

rocket money. Rocket money

45:25

showed me all the subscriptions that I'd

45:27

signed up for and dude, I wasn't using

45:30

a bunch of them. I had no idea

45:32

that both my wife and I signed up for Hulu,

45:34

but we watch TV together. We don't need two

45:37

accounts. We needed one account. I

45:39

even had a subscription that was very expensive

45:41

to disown. I bought it over

45:43

a year prior just to watch one fight

45:45

and forgot about it. They just kept drafting

45:48

and I missed it.

45:49

So let me ask you this. Do you know how much

45:51

your subscriptions really cost? I

45:54

thought I was spending like 80 bucks a month.

45:56

And it was all said and done. I was spending

45:59

hundreds per month.

45:59

It's time you find out exactly

46:02

what you're spending with Rocket Money. You

46:05

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46:07

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46:09

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46:11

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46:14

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46:16

people have a subscription they forgot about.

46:19

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46:21

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46:23

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46:26

it. That's where Rocket Money comes in. They

46:28

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46:30

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46:32

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46:35

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46:37

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46:55

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47:02

going to rocketmoney.com slash foley.

47:04

That's rocketmoney.com slash foley.

47:06

Rocketmoney.com

47:09

slash foley.

47:11

Let's talk about something that might have made this show

47:13

a little bit better. I can't believe

47:15

this is real. This is right out of the Observer.

47:21

A name who met with Titan this past week,

47:23

November 20th, was Cactus Jack. Jack,

47:27

who has just moved from New York to Atlanta, was thought

47:29

due to his look and style to be a wrestler

47:32

that WWF would never be interested in.

47:34

But times have changed. He was

47:36

said to be very close to going with some,

47:39

saying it could be shortly after Royal Rumble.

47:42

Heyman supposedly told the WWF officials,

47:45

which have been attempting to make friends rather than

47:47

enemies, that he didn't want to lose

47:49

Jack until he could properly finish up his

47:51

current program,

47:53

which he said would be April

47:55

of 1996. And

47:57

the WWF said they were in no hurry to bring

47:59

him in. And the

48:00

WWF is also looking at ECW

48:03

as a place where they can send their own wrestlers

48:05

to get work next year. So

48:07

that's, they aren't going to be running as many house shows

48:09

and guys are already complaining

48:11

about not getting enough dates. Jack

48:14

has longtime good friends with Troy Martin,

48:16

AKA the WWF's Dean Douglas, who

48:18

was well known to be unhappy with his situation

48:21

in Titan, which may prove to be a factor

48:23

as well.

48:25

A lot to unpack here. I guess

48:27

to provide some context,

48:30

uh, WCW and Cactus

48:32

Jack have parted ways. Cactus is now

48:34

at this point, either number one or number two,

48:36

probably as far as an indie draw, and

48:39

he is one of the featured performers for Paul Haman's

48:41

extreme championship wrestling. Which

48:44

really started to take shape in 94, but

48:46

most people think 95 was probably

48:48

their best year creatively and

48:50

Cactus Jack is right in the middle of all

48:52

that and showed America, he could do

48:54

a totally different style promo. Than what

48:57

we had seen maybe in Dallas or Atlanta.

48:59

Jr has been a big proponent of

49:02

this over the years. He's told us that

49:04

eventually Vince would acquiesce to

49:06

his push to sign Mick Foley.

49:09

But he, I think you told us on the show, he really

49:11

wanted him to wear a mask.

49:13

And I think it was almost said, maybe tongue in cheek

49:15

that Vince, uh,

49:17

allegedly told

49:19

Jr, I'm going to let you hire this guy.

49:21

So you know what it likes to get your heart broken because

49:23

he just had no confidence in him. And of course we

49:25

know

49:27

right after WrestleMania 12,

49:29

he's going to set the woods on fire as mankind,

49:31

and he's off to the races and becomes a

49:33

bona fide Hall of Famer in,

49:36

in anybody's Hall of Fame.

49:38

Tell us about Cactus Jack's meeting

49:40

here, November 20th, probably

49:42

the first time he's ever met with Vince. Right.

49:47

As a matter of fact, it was, there was

49:49

one other close encounter that didn't happen

49:52

at LaGuardia airport one time.

49:54

Um,

49:56

but Jack did not get an opportunity

49:59

to meet Vince on that.

49:59

day,

50:01

the, you know, is we

50:04

were looking for people to, to come in

50:06

and Cactus was one of those guys

50:08

that both, you know, Jr

50:10

and I liked an awful lot. And sometimes

50:14

how you push someone

50:16

and.

50:19

Insist, you know,

50:22

uh, that

50:23

you got to hire this person for whatever reason.

50:26

I think that that can hamper someone

50:29

sometime in that you have a preconceived

50:32

notion or preconceived idea based

50:35

on whoever it is that's putting them in front

50:37

of you. So

50:39

with, with Cactus Vince

50:42

saw

50:43

the guy from WCW that

50:45

did a lot of crazy things.

50:48

Things that Vince thought were too dangerous.

50:51

And then several years later agreed

50:54

to let him take that bump off the cell, not

50:56

the one through the cell, but the one, um,

51:00

onto the announced table. Hey, before you

51:02

move on, do you remember what bump really

51:04

stood out to Vince? I think the one that a lot of people

51:07

took, there was the whole match with Vader at

51:09

Halloween Havoc. Yeah. Well, he pulled the,

51:11

where he pulled the, the, the, the mats

51:13

up and took that bump onto the concrete. Okay.

51:15

So that was on the TV. I wanted to know if it was

51:17

that, or perhaps that mill masquerist thing

51:20

from clash of the champions where he did a flat back

51:22

on the concrete

51:23

off of the aprons,

51:25

it was a lot of that. And,

51:27

you know, Cornette was also high on Cactus

51:30

at the time too. And you have to,

51:32

again, you have to look

51:35

at how do you sell someone know your

51:37

audience where Vince wasn't into

51:39

the gourd, Vince wasn't into some of those crazy

51:42

bumps. Don't sell that part. Sell

51:45

the part of the, you know, the intelligent

51:47

and

51:50

psychology of Cactus

51:53

and what he did and the human being behind

51:55

that Mick Foley. And I didn't know

51:57

Mick personally. I

51:59

had met. him before and talk to him. I was a big

52:01

fan of his work, but everyone

52:04

that I knew that did know Mick spoke

52:06

very highly

52:08

of Mick Foley and

52:10

just what a wonderful human being that

52:13

there was behind that character. So

52:16

it's, you

52:18

sell the human being and the rest

52:20

will come. And also during

52:23

this time, Jack was doing

52:25

a, uh, character in ECW

52:28

that he was anti hardcore or

52:30

he was hardcore. And he was

52:33

the stuff that I loved and that

52:35

I was able to show Vince a different side

52:37

of cactus was he was writing

52:40

the merry go round with his daughter and Channing.

52:43

I'm hardcore. I'm hardcore.

52:45

And then riding around in the little train

52:47

in the amusement park. I'm

52:49

hardcore. I'm hardcore.

52:52

And sitting in a side headlock for 15 minutes

52:55

in a match and Channing. I'm hardcore.

52:58

And he was the antithesis of everything that ECW

53:02

stood for. So

53:04

it was brilliant. It was brilliant on Paul's part

53:06

is brilliant on Mick's part, that

53:09

character and that build of

53:12

cactus Jack. So when

53:15

Vince saw that dimension, he

53:17

saw, Oh,

53:18

well, wait a minute. This is, this is some entertaining

53:21

stuff. The guy doesn't have to yell

53:23

and scream. He wasn't doing his cactus

53:25

Jack bang, bang, you know, Terry

53:28

funk impersonation,

53:30

and he was being Mick Foley and telling us

53:32

a story that people could relate to.

53:35

So getting, getting

53:37

Mick in and I think that

53:39

Jr and I were both extremely confident that

53:42

once Mick Foley got in a room with

53:45

Vince McMahon, it was able to sit down with

53:47

him and they were able to have a conversation.

53:50

That was all we had to do. We just needed

53:52

to get them in a room. And

53:55

we finally did.

53:58

Do you remember Vince's? away after

54:00

the meeting, I'm sure you've seen the

54:03

look on Vince's face after you meet with a talent

54:05

for the first time. And you can

54:07

just tell, Oh, that didn't go well.

54:10

Or holy shit, Vince love this guy.

54:13

Well, uh, I wasn't in the meeting with,

54:16

with Mick and Vince, but Vince's

54:18

reaction after the meeting, when he comes

54:21

out and he starts pitching ideas right

54:23

away, that's a good sign. Right.

54:26

So, and that's exactly what he did. Vince

54:28

came out and had this mankind image in

54:30

his head and thought that old Mike

54:32

Foley would, uh, be able

54:34

to pull it off.

54:37

Let's go a few weeks later, January 24th,

54:39

the Royal Rumble. It's a rematch here for

54:42

the rock and mankind for the, uh, world

54:44

title. It's an I quit match.

54:47

And this winds up being one of the more brutal

54:49

matches of all time.

54:51

We've talked about this in long form. Uh,

54:53

check it out in our archives. If you'd like,

54:57

it's 21

54:57

minutes, 46 seconds. The

54:59

gist is they play a tape

55:01

from a mankind promo earlier in the night.

55:03

When Foley has the mic in front of him

55:06

is lifeless body. So it seems

55:09

at the rocket shoved it down there and

55:12

they play the tape over the PA. I quit

55:14

and I quit.

55:16

So it's a screw job finish, but that's not

55:18

really the story.

55:20

The story is,

55:22

and it's hard to watch now.

55:24

Brutal chair shots to the head

55:27

over and over and over again.

55:30

And Meltzer would

55:32

crucify it as a lot of people

55:34

do. If you go back and watch it,

55:37

we don't know. We didn't know what we know now about

55:39

head trauma. We should say that. And

55:42

thankfully I don't think we'll ever see anything like this

55:44

ever again.

55:46

What

55:46

were you thinking watching that match live?

55:48

I know we've talked about it before, but it's worth briefly

55:50

touching on here.

55:52

Yeah. A lot of cringing.

55:55

Uh, it was, it

55:57

was violent. It was brutal.

56:00

And very

56:02

good, you know, look, it's not just difficult to watch

56:05

now. It was difficult to watch back then. It

56:07

was something that you

56:09

were like, okay,

56:12

I've seen it enough is enough and

56:15

move on. But it was ugly

56:20

is the best way to describe it. And Barry

56:23

Blaustein went on to make

56:25

that a focal point of beyond

56:28

the mat.

56:31

Yeah, it's just, it's

56:33

hard to watch. It really is. And

56:36

even

56:37

being quote hardcore in

56:39

the business type stuff, nothing,

56:43

nothing will prepare you for that. It just

56:45

was a testament to

56:47

the toughness of Mick Foley. And

56:51

that's not always good.

56:55

Let's

56:55

also mention there is a little bit

56:57

of

56:59

hurt feelings on the other end

57:01

of this. Mick Foley would write about it in his book where

57:03

he didn't feel like

57:04

the rock took care of him. And maybe the rock

57:07

took some liberties

57:08

and I'm sure they fixed it over the years. But

57:11

do you remember hearing anything about there being

57:14

some hurt feelings at the time?

57:16

At the time, no. And I think

57:19

that there was an overall

57:22

feeling

57:23

from

57:24

probably everyone involved in the match and

57:27

those around the business. It may have been a little too

57:29

much

57:31

that

57:32

you look at it at the time. And this was

57:34

something that both guys really wanted to

57:37

do. Sounds great

57:39

on paper before you actually

57:41

do it. But when you're in the middle of it, it's

57:44

hard to get that eraser out and change

57:47

what you have written in your mind. So you

57:49

go through with it. And

57:52

in fairness, he probably, you know,

57:54

listen, I've never talked to the rock about this, but

57:57

I assume he probably got a little bit caught

57:59

up. in the moment and you're running on adrenaline

58:02

and crowd reaction and you

58:05

know, you sort of get lost in it and it's not like

58:07

you can properly communicate with this person

58:09

who is, is quote unquote

58:11

selling. So, I

58:14

mean, I could see how it would happen, but I also

58:16

feel like if, if, if somebody was really

58:18

hurt or there were hurt feelings, there's probably

58:20

going to be a conversation after.

58:23

Well, I would hope so. And

58:26

in the moment, in the heat of the action,

58:28

it is, it is oftentimes hard

58:31

to, hard to say, I remember Mick

58:34

Foley coming back after the hell

58:36

and cell match with Undertaker in Pittsburgh

58:39

and having thumbtacks

58:42

all over him and saying

58:45

to me, Hey, I apologize for

58:48

not getting the thumbtack spot. Right.

58:51

Like, uh, Mick, you did get the thumbtack

58:53

spot and they're stuck all over you. So

58:57

in the heat of the moment, you don't always

58:59

know. You ask a guy, are you okay?

59:02

Right. They say, yeah, I'm fine. Let's go. Right.

59:05

Um, in the heat of the moment, he may have just

59:07

been saying, yeah, I'm okay. Let's go. Maybe

59:10

he didn't say anything because he didn't say anything

59:13

and he's good. Um, when someone's hurt,

59:15

they'll say, no, I'm hurt. Yeah.

59:19

And some guys don't want to do that. Well,

59:21

not only that too, but you got to remember,

59:24

Nick may not have, I mean,

59:27

listen, he clearly got a concussion during this. So

59:30

he's probably not where

59:32

he can properly communicate and rock not

59:34

knowing what we know about head trauma. I

59:36

guess the reason I keep giving a caveat there is I'm trying

59:38

to say, I don't think the

59:41

rock intentionally meant

59:43

to do permanent harm to anyone,

59:45

you know, I

59:45

know that sounds silly, but the

59:48

rock has been crucified for this over the years. And

59:50

it was a different time where we didn't know what we

59:53

know now and it'll never happen again,

59:55

but it's just hard for me to imagine that

59:57

anyone would maliciously and purposefully.

1:00:00

with with bad intent do

1:00:02

anything to Mick Foley if that makes sense.

1:00:08

I know for a fact I mean I no

1:00:10

one can sit there but I know I know

1:00:13

Rock I know Mick and I

1:00:16

don't even think that they could convince me

1:00:18

that Rock could convince

1:00:20

it yeah I wanted to take his head off I

1:00:24

wouldn't believe it right I just I

1:00:26

know that there was a lot of respect and admiration

1:00:28

between the two and both

1:00:31

are professionals so you couldn't convince

1:00:33

me that the Rock

1:00:35

was like oh yeah I'm just gonna take liberties and

1:00:37

swing at the guy without having

1:00:40

they did discuss it ahead

1:00:42

of time and had an

1:00:44

idea of how brutal it would be sometimes

1:00:48

it's sometimes just worse in real life folks

1:00:51

and people get carried away trying

1:00:54

to trying to paint a picture

1:00:57

right they have in their head that

1:00:59

sometimes they can't they can't see

1:01:01

you can't see the forest for the trees and

1:01:04

there is also the old

1:01:07

it's not who goes over it's who got over

1:01:09

the old and if you're trying to build that hey

1:01:12

the Rock is mankind I mean

1:01:14

not the Rock

1:01:15

but mankind is rocky and

1:01:17

he has no you know he's

1:01:19

not good there's no quit in him you can't

1:01:22

he's never gonna do that so supposedly

1:01:25

they agreed on five chair shots it becomes 11

1:01:28

and there's hurt feelings the other thing

1:01:30

that's of note here that we have touched on and I want

1:01:32

to move on from this but

1:01:34

beyond the mat Mary Blaustein is

1:01:36

there filming

1:01:38

Mick's wife Collette and

1:01:40

the kids

1:01:41

all ringside watching their

1:01:43

husband and dad get obliterated

1:01:46

by the chair and man that's

1:01:48

kind of hard to watch in the movie in

1:01:51

hindsight do you think Vince regrets

1:01:53

allowing Blaustein to film the family

1:01:55

here because

1:01:56

doesn't exactly paint the best picture of the company

1:01:59

yeah And we've done a

1:02:01

whole podcast on that

1:02:04

movie in and of itself. And I

1:02:06

will still stand by it. It wasn't represented. It

1:02:09

was going to be a documentary and something was

1:02:11

going to be in film houses and art houses,

1:02:13

not distributed commercially.

1:02:16

So yes, the

1:02:19

answer to that question is yes, because I

1:02:22

think that people will often

1:02:24

gravitate to the negative and

1:02:26

the sensationalistic

1:02:30

of anything.

1:02:34

People want to see that. People want to see what they're

1:02:36

not supposed to see. They are

1:02:39

intrigued with negativity. It's

1:02:43

sometimes hard to comprehend, but I get

1:02:45

it. So

1:02:48

yeah, I think that they portrayed this in

1:02:51

a way, in

1:02:54

a way, but I don't know it was an accurate

1:02:56

way.

1:02:57

The next night on Raw, a big boss man is going to beat the

1:02:59

rock. That's right. The big boss man

1:03:01

beats the rock in a hardcore match to determine

1:03:03

the number one contendership.

1:03:05

Rock's going to grab a camera and take a photo during

1:03:08

the match. Lots of brawling through the crowd.

1:03:10

He's even going to whip the boss man with Earl Huebner's

1:03:12

belt.

1:03:13

He uses the rock bottom on the stage. Prince

1:03:16

Albert runs in.

1:03:18

Rock hits Albert with a chair, gives boss

1:03:20

man the people's elbow.

1:03:22

Albert makes the save.

1:03:24

Boss man gets the pen in four minutes and 41 seconds

1:03:27

with that boss man slam. And the rock

1:03:29

goes nuts.

1:03:31

Destroying boss man with a chain and

1:03:33

Albert with a TV monitor. Everybody's bleeding.

1:03:36

Rock also destroys Sergeant Slaughter,

1:03:38

another referee, and even your brother, Dr. Tom.

1:03:41

So we're seeing a bad ass version here

1:03:43

of the rock. Is this to show

1:03:46

the dark side,

1:03:48

the mean side, the angry side? What

1:03:50

are we trying to accomplish with the rock here in this segment?

1:03:54

Well, I like to call that going Samoan.

1:03:56

OK.

1:03:58

And Rock did it. Rock

1:04:00

did pretty damn good and this

1:04:03

was an opportunity to just show an unhinged

1:04:05

Rock and holy shit you pissed this guy off

1:04:08

what's gonna happen so yeah

1:04:10

that was that was a going Simone Rock and

1:04:13

be able to go out and beat everybody's ass you

1:04:15

then had completely forgotten that he

1:04:17

just got pinned for one two three.

1:04:20

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so anyway yeah oh I was gonna

1:05:48

tell you I had an unexpected

1:05:50

guest that's where I was gonna go JR before

1:05:53

we jump into this talk about who dropped in

1:05:55

on you today before this recording

1:05:58

well it wasn't Bisnick man Uh,

1:06:04

Nick Foley, Nick

1:06:06

texted me earlier today.

1:06:10

Are you off? He texted me. Whatever was the cheapest

1:06:12

thing he could do to communicate with me. He did. I

1:06:15

was texting me or direct messaging

1:06:17

me or filling my DMS

1:06:19

up or whatever, but I

1:06:21

didn't realize he was working on Saturday

1:06:24

night, I guess Saturday, where Billy

1:06:26

Corgan at the end of the show, uh, whatever

1:06:30

it was, that's right. Hard times too. You're right.

1:06:32

You're right. And, uh, uh,

1:06:37

is that Mick Foley again? See popping in

1:06:39

again. Oh, somebody else from my,

1:06:41

from my home area code probably

1:06:43

wanted me to do a,

1:06:44

an interview about the football coaching situation,

1:06:48

which normally I would, but right now, there's

1:06:50

something even more fun, uh,

1:06:52

Mick, then he, he drove

1:06:54

Nicholas an hour south of me here. And

1:06:57

I didn't realize that.

1:06:59

And so, uh, he said, I've been wanting

1:07:01

to come by and see you. He said,

1:07:03

I feel guilty. And that's what he says. So he drove

1:07:06

from Atlanta.

1:07:07

Uh, he did, he drove this trip. So he drove

1:07:09

from Atlanta.

1:07:11

They just went to his home and he passed

1:07:13

right through Jacksonville.

1:07:15

So he knocks on the door and there he is bigger

1:07:17

than life. I mean, bigger than life. Oh,

1:07:21

he's got to be 330. He's

1:07:23

announced. I

1:07:26

love him. He's I said, he

1:07:28

got it. We talked about the booking

1:07:31

and

1:07:31

that, you know, that work life after you're

1:07:34

in a company

1:07:36

and he, he takes all these bookings and,

1:07:39

you know, he'll drive a zillion miles. Yeah.

1:07:43

I had, I tell a story one time that,

1:07:46

uh, he played a little, uh, state

1:07:49

fair barn on the

1:07:51

fairgrounds in Oklahoma city. Did

1:07:54

a show and

1:07:55

he invited Jan and I to come watch a

1:07:57

show, which we were

1:07:59

very happy for them. and was gladly

1:08:01

accepted. So we get

1:08:03

there, we park in the back,

1:08:05

because

1:08:05

that's where the boys bark. And

1:08:08

so we parked in the back,

1:08:10

and there was a little bitty white car sitting there.

1:08:12

And I looked inside the car, and it was, it

1:08:15

was just, there

1:08:18

was water burger wrappers everywhere. Saks,

1:08:22

hamburger wrappers, big

1:08:24

drinks, that big milkshakes would

1:08:26

fit in. And I said, well, there's

1:08:29

the mixed car. Well, how do you know?

1:08:31

I said, because all that, with all this water

1:08:33

burger stuff.

1:08:35

So we get in there, we hug, and I said,

1:08:38

mixed, that's your black car right there.

1:08:40

Yeah.

1:08:41

So I looked at Jan, and she looked like she just

1:08:43

kind of grandlike.

1:08:45

That's,

1:08:46

you know, way more than you need to know about Nick

1:08:48

Foley's dietary

1:08:51

strategies. So anyway,

1:08:53

he came by, we had a great visit, and

1:08:56

I love the guy, you know, he was,

1:08:58

he's so grateful that I was able to help him back

1:09:00

in the day. Yeah. And I'm grateful

1:09:03

that I was in a position to help him. So

1:09:06

he never disappointed, never failed.

1:09:08

He always played well in every big game he was in.

1:09:11

And so, you know, we talk about football, and all

1:09:13

these guys delivering on the big stage,

1:09:16

Nick's always delivered.

1:09:18

And so,

1:09:20

but you could tell the, you know,

1:09:23

I think he's got a new hip, he's got a new knee

1:09:25

or something, now he's either

1:09:27

reassembling him, but

1:09:29

all those years of those crazy fucking bumps,

1:09:33

he's paying for it now.

1:09:34

Well, that was nice of him to stop by and try

1:09:36

to cheer you up, J.R., with everything you have

1:09:39

going on. The last time I know, Nick

1:09:41

tried to cheer somebody up and was in the hospital,

1:09:43

and he pulled out a sock puppet. He didn't try to do

1:09:45

that with you today. He didn't bring Mr. Socko along,

1:09:48

did he? Mr. Socko was not here. Okay.

1:09:51

Well, you're welcome, but he wasn't here.

1:09:53

And

1:09:55

Mr. Socko. Isn't it funny

1:09:57

how the simplest things sometimes just get

1:09:59

over it? over because of the individuals

1:10:02

involved in the.

1:10:06

McMahon, Austin, and Foley. You

1:10:08

can write anything. It's not going to, it's not going to suck.

1:10:11

It may not be as good as Mr. Sacco, but

1:10:14

it's not going to suck.

1:10:15

And that's why when people say the cream always

1:10:17

rises,

1:10:20

that's it. That statement kind of confirms that,

1:10:22

that illustration, right.

1:10:23

Uh, that

1:10:25

you get the right ingredients. That's

1:10:27

not saying that you can't have a stinker.

1:10:30

But you lessen your odds of having a stinker,

1:10:32

you get higher level talents. You

1:10:35

know, exercises are your game plan.

1:10:38

A man in his tube sock. And wow,

1:10:40

how that took off. Unbelievable. Yeah.

1:10:44

So anyway, he's, uh, he's doing good. He's

1:10:46

going to be happy. And

1:10:48

you

1:10:48

know, uh,

1:10:50

he's got that big family and,

1:10:53

and, uh, they're unique.

1:10:55

It's like, oh, Nick, the patriarch

1:10:57

is a unique man. And, uh, he

1:11:00

says, you know, always be one of my all time

1:11:02

favorites. This is a human

1:11:04

being. He does so many

1:11:06

things to help,

1:11:07

uh,

1:11:09

people that need wrestlers

1:11:10

that need,

1:11:12

you know, fund me, go fund me stuff.

1:11:15

And he sells a shirt off his back at every show,

1:11:18

donates

1:11:18

that he's just a, a

1:11:21

good human being that you wonder, well,

1:11:23

when is this gig going to be up? Cause

1:11:25

nobody can be that nice.

1:11:27

Yes, they can.

1:11:29

We all can.

1:11:30

It's a commitment and Nick is committed to being

1:11:33

a good guy. And he was, he was raised

1:11:35

by his good moms and a good mom

1:11:37

and dad.

1:11:39

Well, Jay, are you are huge influential

1:11:41

on him even getting on with the WWF

1:11:44

back in the day, as far as him coming

1:11:46

on and signing? So I know you

1:11:49

are important to him as you are to so many

1:11:51

of us. I'm thrilled to hear that

1:11:53

your treatment is going on, is going well

1:11:55

so far. And I'm excited to hear

1:11:57

about that dream scenario of what you're talking.

1:12:07

It worked out that way

1:12:08

and let's

1:12:10

just hope knock on wood that

1:12:13

the

1:12:13

plan stays intact

1:12:15

that's

1:12:15

the game plan there we go and I'll be

1:12:18

it'll be jacked to get to

1:12:21

drive over to the stadium and a daily

1:12:24

place to do our thing and that's

1:12:26

kind of you know we've gotten to have it doing that for a long time

1:12:29

and which is why I'm living here

1:12:32

not that I regret being on the beach it's

1:12:35

not a bad deal so mix us so you gotta

1:12:37

get up every day look at that huh

1:12:41

so anyway we it was a great visit

1:12:43

I just saw if you go to Mick

1:12:45

Foley's Twitter page

1:12:48

or yeah Twitter at real

1:12:50

Mick Foley he's got a nice picture he and I

1:12:52

on the on the my

1:12:54

balcony nice view

1:12:56

of the beach in the ocean

1:12:58

oh very nice yeah he's a good he's a good

1:13:00

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