Tod Bolsinger and Dana Allin talk about Tod’s most recent book Tempered Resilience: How Leaders Are Formed in the Crucible of Change. The two discuss the importance of holding fast to things that are important in the midst of change and its effects on leadership. Tod explains the difference between adaptive leadership and technical leadership and how we can use the different practices as we walk into the shifts we experience in our current and future circumstances. They also discuss the different challenges we face as pastors and leaders to pursue accountable relationships and the importance of becoming lifelong learners.