Episode Transcript
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0:05
Here's the question. Has
0:07
Hillsong changed, Has it listened
0:10
to critics, has it listened
0:12
to people like me? I left
0:14
Hillsong two years ago. I started
0:16
working on this series more than a year ago,
0:19
and now I know a whole lot more. In
0:22
the past seven episodes of False Prophets,
0:25
we've heard stories of all kinds of abuse,
0:28
spiritual, sexual, and economic.
0:31
The Hillsong I knew did not challenge
0:33
abuse of behavior by star preachers
0:36
instead of protected the brand. I'm
0:40
no Emmy would ebit. And this is the final
0:42
episode of False Prophets, and I'm asking
0:45
can there be justice? It's
0:51
a Sunday, which means
0:54
that today Hillsong
0:57
had their service. And I
1:01
don't feel like I owe the bunny
1:03
thing. I don't feel weird being here anymore.
1:08
This is the Boston Commons, the park where
1:10
I took my dog Teddy. We're
1:13
not far from Royale, the nightclub
1:15
that gets transformed into Hillsong Church
1:18
every week. After leaving
1:20
the church, for some time, I wouldn't
1:23
go out. I was living outside of the city and
1:27
I would get panic attacks if I ran into
1:30
someone, and I
1:32
wanted it to be my home again and
1:35
not feel like I was invading
1:37
a place, or I was out of place, and
1:40
so I moved into the city, into the Back
1:42
Bay area, close to
1:44
this park. And I've
1:47
been here for a year
1:50
or so, and honestly,
1:53
now I feel so much more
1:55
confidence to just walk on the street.
1:58
And now I'm able to contin They need
2:00
to live in the city knowing that
2:03
Hillsong Church is still here. You
2:06
know, my hope speaking out is that they
2:09
will cease to exist as a church
2:11
organization. But for now,
2:15
for now Boston is my city again. I
2:18
can enjoy life. Hillsong
2:33
has made it clear they are not
2:35
prepared to engage with people who want it to
2:38
close down, and they won't discuss
2:40
individual grievances. Hillsong
2:43
needs to face a simple fact. When
2:45
people get hurt by religion, there's
2:47
no quick fix. The church
2:50
wants to move on. Brian Houston
2:52
is out, a new leadership is in, but
2:55
that's not the end for many of us. Trauma
2:58
stays with you. I'm
3:01
going to go back to a guy named Andrew to
3:03
help you understand. In March
3:05
of twenty twenty two, and media
3:08
reports of Brian Houston's stepping
3:11
down from church, those media
3:13
reports created a setup
3:15
in so many different ways for my body
3:18
to relive exactly what it was
3:21
like at twenty to come out and
3:23
lose everything. It's nearly twenty
3:26
years since Andrew was shamed, tormented,
3:28
and rejected when he came out as a gay man
3:31
in Hillsong. He's built a successful
3:33
and happy life since then. But
3:36
when Hillsong scandals hit the news headlines,
3:39
the past came flooding back. My
3:41
body felt like a prison. I
3:44
had rashes all over my feet, a
3:47
rash all over my face. My
3:49
body became inflamed.
3:52
My chest felt like
3:54
it had metal wire trapping it. And
3:58
it is astounding to me that
4:01
after all of these years, my
4:04
buddy is remembering that
4:07
isolation, that threat to my
4:10
existence. I can
4:12
see why some people
4:14
have not been able to survive these experiences.
4:17
Andrew never had an apology from Hillsong,
4:20
and I don't think he ever will. We
4:23
asked Hillsong to respond to the issues
4:25
raised in this series. So
4:27
far, Hillsong has decided not
4:30
to respond on the record or on tape.
4:33
The church wants to tell a story of renewal
4:36
and change, but for me, renew
4:39
means a lot of hard work. Healing
4:41
takes time, and it comes at a
4:44
financial cost. You
4:47
can't talk about Hillsong for long without bringing
4:50
up money because it's obviously a really
4:52
big issue. And if
4:54
I could, I would definitely submit
4:57
an invoice for a refund
4:59
for all the day images and all of the
5:02
work and free labor that I gave. That
5:05
would be amazing. I would definitely get a lot
5:07
of money back. So I
5:09
did put together an Excel spreadsheet
5:12
with all my costs, and so
5:14
I like to now jokingly say that
5:16
it's my invoice for that one year
5:19
that I spent recovering from
5:22
being at Hillsong, Texas
5:26
twenty twenty medical expenses here
5:28
we go. So I
5:31
divided it between medical expenses
5:34
and ESA expenses because Teddy
5:36
at the time was my emotional support animal.
5:39
Just for Teddy. The
5:41
grand total was one thousand,
5:44
seven hundred and fifty six with sixteen
5:47
cents and for medical
5:50
cost this included just
5:52
regular PCP visits, and I needed
5:55
more than the usual in going
5:57
to my psychiatric doctor, going
6:00
to my therapist, dental.
6:03
A lot of people don't talk about this, but mental
6:06
health can really affect your teeth with
6:08
grinding and your gums swell.
6:11
It could be pretty dangerous. I had to get
6:14
a lot of work done, and I still go every
6:16
three months. The usual is every
6:18
six months, so I actually have a
6:21
lot of costs that add up there. So
6:23
with all of that together in twenty
6:25
twenty added to two thousand, five
6:28
hundred and six dollars with fifty
6:30
seven cents, And honestly, that
6:33
seems really low to me because I had
6:35
a good insurance that year, luckily, and
6:38
it covered a good portion, but I
6:40
still had to pay twenty
6:42
five hundred dollars out of pocket.
6:47
Twenty five hundred dollars is a lot to me,
6:50
It probably wasn't a lot to some of
6:52
the Hillsong pastors. Remember
6:55
we reported Hillsong pastor Carl
6:57
Lentz in New York was happy to blow
6:59
five thousand dollars on a dinner
7:01
with celebrities. But for people
7:03
like me, a financial reckoning is
7:05
probably not going to happen. No
7:08
one's going to get their tides back, are they or
7:10
get help with therapy. But
7:12
a simple acknowledgement of the past might
7:15
be a start, because I
7:17
don't see how Hillsong can fix things until
7:19
it owns its past. Smoke
7:22
and smoking
7:25
beers. The
7:28
track is Gritten and performed by my friend
7:30
Janice Legata it's called
7:32
Disneylands. It's
7:37
all about her Hillsong experience. You
7:41
don't have to believe to just
7:44
drinking deep and don't forget to
7:47
sing were Janice
7:50
isn't hopeful that Hillsong will change, so
7:54
she keeps on using her
7:56
music, her blogs, her podcasts,
7:58
and her videos to call out mega church
8:00
culture. You
8:05
can here. So
8:16
in the beginning, it would have been enough for it to just
8:19
just go out of business, But
8:22
now it doesn't help
8:25
as much as I would like. Because of every Hillsong campus
8:27
closed tomorrow and they were just gone,
8:30
probably eighty percent of those people would
8:32
just gravitate to the next mega church
8:35
like I'm not special. There are a thousand
8:38
means Hill Songs not special. There are a thousand
8:40
hill Songs like it's it's the system.
8:43
We need to see the system kind
8:45
of face justice. The leadership
8:47
of Hillsong. Those people should have to account
8:50
for what they did and offer
8:53
true repentance and again
8:55
reparation. But you know, so
8:57
far a lot of these people, these
9:00
bad actors Carl Lentz include
9:02
it, right, They kind of have
9:04
their moment, oh I'm
9:06
no longer in Hillsong, and then they
9:09
they just disappear and they go off and they continue
9:11
living off of the money of the people they
9:14
abused. Legally, Yeah,
9:17
there's very little at this point they could
9:19
be done to make them pay up. But
9:21
you know, if they want to keep moving from
9:24
church to church, or they want to keep existing,
9:26
I think it's just to keep shouting, well,
9:28
hey what about these people
9:30
over here. Hopefully people
9:32
just see how they're treating the people who have left,
9:35
and just see how they're not willing to help
9:37
people heal. Hopefully, as more
9:39
people see that, you know, if you want
9:41
to stay in Hillsong, stay but
9:44
stop giving your money. Some people
9:46
have stopped going and some people have
9:48
stopped giving. Hillsong
9:50
finances have taken a hit. COVID
9:53
has been a big factor. The
9:56
annual report for Hillsong in Australia
9:58
shows revenues was more
10:00
than twelve percent in twenty twenty one.
10:03
But here's the thing. Hillsong
10:05
is being replicated by other churches and
10:08
the Fallen Stars. There's always
10:10
a shout at Redemption and Hillsong
10:12
Church itself. They didn't want
10:14
to talk on the record, but this is what we know.
10:17
They're working to promote the message
10:19
that it's a church again, it's not a corporation.
10:22
That the message is about God and
10:25
that God is cleaning out the church. This
10:28
is l Hardy, the journalist has been with
10:30
me throughout the series. I've spoken to
10:32
people close to the new Hillsong Board and
10:35
they believe that they've implemented
10:37
a new culture and that they're putting in place
10:40
a more robust set of policies
10:42
and procedures that's going to stop some
10:44
of the problems happening again. They
10:46
said that the Hillsong today is absolutely
10:48
different from the Hillsong of a year ago, and
10:51
Hillsong without Brian Houston doesn't
10:53
look like the Hillsong of Brian Houston. They
10:56
say that the services are different, that
10:58
the celebrity cultures go on the
11:01
expenses of being cut back. They're
11:03
also saying things like Brian Houston was
11:05
a micromanager. Everything had to go
11:07
through him, no one ever knew really
11:09
what was going on, and that it
11:12
was this culture under Brian's leadership
11:14
that became detrimental and toxic.
11:17
They're keen to tell people that financial
11:20
oversight has changed, that the old
11:22
board was gutless. They're also saying
11:24
that the big thing is that under the old system,
11:26
the senior pastor had all the control.
11:29
This is no longer the case, and complaints
11:31
about senior passes should be dealt with externally
11:33
and independently. They're talking
11:35
about things like having psychological assessments
11:38
come in for candidates and ministry, and
11:41
they're pretty explicit that their
11:43
old system failed. Well, what about
11:46
the specific issues you raison the series
11:48
we reported on serious allegations
11:51
of abuse at Hillsong, New York. We
11:53
know from the reports leaked to you that Hillsong's
11:56
own lawyers recommended changes. It's
11:58
really interesting to me because that report
12:01
that came out of everything that went wrong
12:03
and Hillsong on the East Coast was so
12:05
damning about their culture and
12:08
made some really explicit recommendations.
12:11
But speaking to my contacts within Hillsong,
12:14
it's really unclear whether these recommendations
12:17
by their own lawyers have actually been implemented.
12:20
And now some people are saying, oh, we've
12:22
had a new review and we're putting in a
12:25
whole lot of recommendations and procedures
12:27
and policies in place based out
12:29
of this new review. And this is being
12:31
implemented right now. In fact, it should
12:34
be complete by around August twenty
12:36
twenty three. One thing that Hillsong
12:38
is clear about is that a hypercharismatic
12:41
preacher like Carl Lentz isn't going
12:43
to happen again. They can't
12:45
let someone get out of control and
12:47
damage the church, no matter how many
12:50
souls they bring through the door. It
12:53
sounds to me like the messages the
12:55
bad stuffers in the past. Yes,
12:57
people got hurt, but trust us, it's
13:00
all going to be different. But I still
13:02
don't hear much acknowledgment of the hurt cause
13:05
to people who've left. I'm
13:07
talking about what i'd call spiritual
13:09
abuse. Bostravijian
13:12
is a lawyer who works with victims of church
13:14
abuse. He's had professional experience
13:16
with Hillsong. Yeah, so I wanted
13:18
to ask a bit more of what
13:21
does spiritual abuse or
13:23
religious abuse? A lot of people define it differently.
13:26
A lot of people use those two words interchangeably.
13:28
But what does that look like for you in the
13:31
legal sense. Yeah, I'm not sure
13:33
if there's a set working definition
13:35
of spiritual religious abuse.
13:38
I think in the work that I've done, if I
13:40
was to try to unpack that a little bit,
13:42
I would say that it is the
13:45
use of spiritual matters which
13:47
could include community theology,
13:50
teachings to abuse
13:53
or disenfranchise others. Now,
13:56
what does that mean? That can mean so many different
13:58
things. So, for example, I believe that
14:00
any form of sexual abuse is also
14:02
a form of spiritual abuse, especially
14:06
within the faith community. There's
14:08
no way that you can have a spiritual leader
14:11
engaging in sexual abuse of somebody
14:13
under their care and there not be profound
14:16
aspects of spiritual abuse.
14:19
People believing that this is what God God
14:22
wants, or that it's okay with God, or
14:24
that you know, a twisting of theology
14:27
to say and to justify that
14:30
type of conduct which does just devastates
14:34
individuals emotionally, physically, but
14:36
also spiritually. I
14:38
think that legally there
14:41
really isn't a cause of action
14:43
in the United States for spiritual abuse.
14:46
I think that courts generally stay
14:48
far away from that because courts
14:51
generally don't like to get involved with theological
14:54
disputes or ecclesiastical
14:56
matters. So to say something spiritually
14:59
abusive can be a nebulous
15:01
term. I mean, I think anybody who's been spiritually abused
15:04
gets it. But you
15:06
know, there would be some people in the Christian world.
15:08
You talk about a particular conduct
15:10
and say that's spiritual abuse, and they would have
15:12
no clue what you're talking about. They would say, no, that's
15:15
not spiritual abuse. That's part of our belief
15:17
or our faith system. And there'd be others who
15:19
would say, oh my god, that's about as spiritual abuse
15:21
of as you can get. Often in
15:24
the work that you do, what is
15:26
the most common type of case
15:28
that you've seen in which you're
15:31
able to find some form of accountability
15:34
or justice. One thing people have to understand
15:36
is a difference between criminal and civil law.
15:40
Criminal law is when the
15:42
government comes in and prosecutes
15:45
or holds an individual or individuals accountable
15:47
for committing crimes, and the ultimate consequence
15:51
of a criminal case can be incarceration.
15:54
On the other end, you have civil cases.
15:56
Civil cases are private actions
15:59
where one person and sues another
16:01
based upon what we call a recognized cause
16:03
of action, and in a
16:05
civil case, the ultimate consequence
16:09
is compensation, not incarceration.
16:12
And the big difference between civil and criminal
16:14
case is that in a civil case, the
16:17
victim is in the driver's seat in the case,
16:19
making the decisions. But what I
16:21
look back on my cases were I
16:24
think most of my clients and I think
16:26
they would say this, that was the most
16:29
positive and healing aspect of the process,
16:32
and it's a difficult process, was
16:34
the fact that they were empowered through
16:36
the process to be a party,
16:39
to step out of the shadows, to file
16:41
a lawsuit with their name on it against
16:44
that church or against that institution,
16:46
to hold them accountable in some
16:49
fashion, and to force them to higher
16:51
lawyers, to force them to come to depositions,
16:54
to force them to answer questions. That's
16:57
very empowering and in essence healing.
17:00
Who a lot of my clients who as you know,
17:02
as a as a survivor, so much is
17:04
taken away from you. Yeah. Often, power
17:07
is like the biggest thing that I have to work on
17:09
in therapy. I've been hearing a lot
17:11
of folks, mainly on social media,
17:13
when different things come out. The
17:16
biggest thing that comes up is there
17:18
a possibility for a class action lawsuit
17:21
if we were to all come together to
17:23
present the case. I know the burden of proof
17:26
would be on us to show that there was
17:28
intent, but what would that look like. I'm
17:30
not a class action lawyer. Having
17:33
said that, I really don't believe
17:35
that these type of cases lend themselves
17:38
to class action lawsuits. And the
17:40
reason is that the primary objective
17:42
of a class action lawsuit is really not financial.
17:45
It's really to hold whatever entity, whether
17:47
it's a you know, a company, business,
17:49
a car manufacture, whatever, to
17:52
hold them responsible to fix a problem.
17:54
And what the secret about class
17:56
action lawsuits is is
17:59
that lawyers are the ones who benefit the
18:01
most from class action lawsuits. Boz
18:03
doesn't believe class action lawsuits are
18:05
an answer, but he says individuals
18:08
can bring legal action, and he
18:10
believes that this can be a part of taking
18:12
back power. The monetary damages
18:15
can be economic and can be noneconomic,
18:17
So pain and suffering damages. How
18:19
do you even put a dollar a figure to that.
18:22
One of the things that we think about, because
18:25
a lot of my clients, which is which is a good thing,
18:27
one of the things that get really uneasy talking
18:29
about is money. And what I have to sort
18:31
of gently push back on is, no,
18:34
this is about money, because if
18:36
you sat down and counted up the
18:39
financial cost that
18:41
this abuse has
18:45
cost your life, it's significant,
18:48
It's beyond significant. And so why
18:50
in the world should you be, as the victim,
18:53
be pulling out money from
18:55
your wallet or your bank account
18:58
many survivors who don't even have it. Why
19:01
should you be having to do that when
19:03
the one that's responsible or the entities
19:06
that are responsible, should be doing that.
19:08
That's part of why we sue churches
19:11
and sue organizations because we're saying,
19:13
listen, one way we hold you accountable
19:16
is to make sure that you are going to compensate
19:18
me for all of my loss, financial
19:21
and non financial. When
19:24
it comes to law and religion, accountability
19:27
is elusive. Doctor Stephen Hassan
19:29
is trying to come up with an answer. He
19:32
spent more than forty years helping people
19:34
get out of all types of authoritarian
19:36
groups, religious cults, political
19:39
cults, therapy cults, and multi
19:41
level marketing groups. He's
19:43
best known for his work on something called
19:46
the Bite model. You can check it
19:48
out on his website. But to explain
19:50
it simply, it's a list of red
19:52
flags, a checklist of characteristics
19:55
of mind control. Well, I believe
19:58
everyone should understand stand
20:00
the influence continuum and Bite
20:02
model, and they should understand
20:05
the qualities of most
20:07
cult leaders is malignant narcissism.
20:10
And what I advocate is people
20:13
be good consumers. So
20:15
if they're being invited to something
20:18
that they should do an independent investigation,
20:21
not depend on the recruiters. To
20:23
give you information. And
20:26
the simplest thing these days with Google
20:29
is to put the name in quotes of
20:31
the group, the name of the leader
20:33
in quotes. Then you do plus
20:35
cult or plus scam,
20:38
plus brainwashing, plus
20:41
x members. And don't just settle
20:43
for the first page, go ten
20:46
pages in because most
20:48
of the big cults manipulate search
20:50
engines because they know most people won't
20:53
look more than three pages on
20:55
Google. But the other thing is
20:57
so research the leader, the story,
21:00
and so you want to ask hard questions.
21:03
And most cult leaders go for power,
21:05
money, and sex, and some want all
21:08
three. And you want to get
21:10
involved with a religious group where the leader
21:13
isn't me me, me, Me, Me me. You
21:15
want the centrality to be
21:17
focused on helping lift up members
21:21
and support them and teach love rather
21:23
than hate. And if a group's
21:26
legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny.
21:28
So you know, allow your inner
21:31
gut or your inner voice,
21:33
it's saying there's something wrong here, listen
21:36
to yourself and reality test. When
21:39
he was nineteen, Stephen was recruited
21:41
into a cult, the Moonies. His
21:44
experience motivated him to try and change
21:46
the legal system. He wants
21:49
those who exercise destructive
21:51
mind control to be held criminally
21:53
accountable. It's become a mission
21:56
and a crusade for forty six years,
21:59
and the last seven years I've
22:01
been focusing on getting a doctorate
22:04
and trying to create
22:07
a formula that judges and juries
22:09
can use to evaluate undue influence
22:12
in courts of law, because
22:14
I feel that what is being done
22:16
should be illegal. There's a long
22:19
way to go before we see any legal
22:21
changes. But Stephen Hassan's
22:24
focus is also on recovery, and
22:26
a part of that is dealing with guilt. So
22:29
I think that one should own
22:32
the fact that you did interfere
22:35
with other people's lives and perhaps
22:38
cause great harm, but also
22:40
acknowledge you were doing the best
22:42
you could with the information and experiences
22:45
you had. You were believing you
22:48
were doing a good thing. And so
22:50
it starts with not having a
22:52
black and white judgment on your
22:55
younger self. But here's what
22:57
I tell all of my clients as
22:59
a therapist. I say, the key
23:02
to recovering from destructive mind
23:04
control is controlling your own
23:06
mind. I ask people
23:08
to answer, if they knew
23:12
then what they know now, what
23:14
would they have said or done differently. So,
23:18
in the case of the younger me when I was
23:20
nineteen. If Steve knew
23:22
these women were moonies and they were going
23:25
to ask them to drop out of college and become
23:27
a right wing fascist, I would have told them,
23:29
no, you can't sit at my table. In
23:31
fact, get the hell off my campus. I'm
23:34
calling security. So the idea
23:36
is I'm empowering my clients
23:39
to heal themselves. And
23:41
the critical thing is to be in your body,
23:44
to be in the now and have
23:47
goals for the future
23:49
that can be very positive
23:51
and attractive to you that you have a
23:54
future you want to live. We
23:56
can rewire our brains
23:58
to be the way we want to be now. I
24:02
was told by a professor at this
24:04
forensic think tank I've been a part of at
24:06
Harvard. He said, if you really want to change
24:08
the law, you need a doctor at Steve,
24:11
and you need to do a quantitative study
24:13
or in your model to prove that it has
24:15
efficacy. And I said,
24:18
Michael, I'm sixty three, and
24:20
he said I'm seventy seven. Do
24:22
you want to change the law or not? And
24:25
I was like, damn, I
24:27
guess I'm gonna go
24:29
back to school and crack
24:31
the textbooks and learn.
24:34
And it turned out to be one of the best choices
24:36
I made because I got smarter.
24:39
And that's one thing I hope you'll take away from false
24:41
prophets. All of us, even
24:44
the smartest people, can fall for stuff. But
24:47
what about some of the people we've met in this series.
24:49
How did the Hillsong experience affect their
24:52
lives and faith? Oludharado
24:55
was part of Hillsong, New York, New Jersey,
24:57
and Los Angeles. So my
24:59
relationship to faith is that you
25:01
know it exists. I still
25:04
believe in Jesus, but I'm definitely
25:07
not part of a church. I don't plan to
25:09
be part of a church ever. Again. I
25:11
do believe churches do do good, but
25:14
for me, the damage that can be
25:16
done to the individual supersedes
25:19
the good that it does overall.
25:22
So for me personally, I can't
25:24
do it. I just can't be a part of a church
25:26
at all. I really just don't think they
25:28
are safe spaces for people who
25:30
aren't white. And after
25:34
I left the church, I definitely
25:36
was scared that I wouldn't be as
25:39
close to God or
25:41
my faith, and that was
25:43
proven wrong. I didn't necessarily need to
25:45
be part of a church to be close
25:48
to God or to have strong faith. Racism
25:51
came up a lot in this series. Who
25:54
Song says on its website that it's
25:56
woken up to diversity and
25:58
inclusion issues. Also
26:00
says that their new board is more diverse.
26:03
And what about people who work for really low
26:05
wages for Hillsong pastors and left
26:07
feeling exploited? How
26:09
do they feel now? Megan
26:12
Fallon was one of the nannies and volunteers
26:14
at Hillsong New York. She moved
26:16
to San Francisco and she gave birth to twin
26:19
daughters soon after talking to us. I
26:21
don't know the answer that what Hillsong could
26:23
do to get better, but I know it starts
26:25
with like listening to the people that they've
26:27
hurt. And I just am
26:30
a firm believer that like, if your intentions
26:32
are good, you can go into any situation and
26:34
spin it around. But you
26:36
know, this church and these people
26:39
are hurting or have hurt a lot of folks,
26:41
and so just be careful
26:44
and if you did feel like it's time
26:46
to leave, like trust that gut feeling
26:48
the first time you feel it. And there's
26:51
a lot of us kind of on the other side
26:53
that there's like a lot of support
26:55
out there now, which is really awesome. Hillsong
26:58
isn't going to engage with us. We
27:00
are the past. I guess it says
27:02
the Hillsong of today is not the Hillsong
27:05
of Brian Houston. Ashley Easter
27:07
has been with us through the series. She's
27:10
an abuse survivor and an advocate
27:12
for victims. In her experience,
27:15
powerful people don't change. The
27:18
people that you're dealing with in
27:20
these church systems are not like
27:23
you most of the time. They
27:25
do not have the same kind of empathy you have
27:28
most of the time. They're not driven by the same
27:30
care for other people that you are driven
27:32
by. And so don't
27:35
be disillusioned that talking
27:37
about the problem and bringing
27:40
up these issues is going to some
27:42
help tug at their heartstrings and they're going to
27:44
want to do the right thing. So focus
27:46
more on what you can do for survivors
27:49
and to advance the cause of survivors
27:52
and protecting other people from getting
27:54
in these situations. In the beginning,
27:58
I used to think that AVOCA to see
28:00
work. The goal was to maybe change
28:03
the systems or the churches, or maybe
28:05
get the pastors to listen. I
28:07
don't believe that that's the goal anymore. I
28:10
think the goal that realized now is
28:12
really just to empower the survivor
28:14
community and to sound
28:17
the alarm so it doesn't happen to other
28:19
people, so they can make decisions to keep themselves
28:21
safe. And to be able to have your story
28:24
told and validated
28:26
by a community, and to warn other
28:28
people. I think those are some huge winds
28:30
that we're seeing in the survivor
28:33
community as a whole. What
28:39
about my personal story and queer identity?
28:41
No sign of change there from Hillsong. Will
28:44
Hillsong affirm gay people? The
28:47
message we're getting is no, will
28:49
gay people be accepted in leadership roles?
28:52
No? Will Hillsong be more
28:54
clear on their message? The sign
28:56
we're getting is no. But the
28:58
message is still welcome home,
29:01
you belong here. It's
29:04
time for a final catch up with Oh Hardy.
29:06
We're not surprised that Hillsong doesn't want to talk
29:08
on the record. From
29:11
your perspective, does it look any different to the Hillsong
29:13
that you left? To be honest,
29:16
I guess different in terms of
29:18
the leader at the front, the person holding
29:21
the mic, But in terms of systems,
29:24
I see it the same, Like nothing
29:26
has changed. The system was founded the
29:28
way it was and they liked it the way
29:30
it was and it's not going to shift from that.
29:33
Yeah, I've also been wondering, I mean, for
29:35
you, is there going to be a point where you draw
29:37
a line and say, Hillsong is so far
29:39
in the revision mirror now I'm not thinking
29:42
about it talking about it anymore, Like are you ever
29:44
gonna have you ever sort of set that point
29:46
for yourself or are you just kind of just
29:49
kind of rolling with it. That's a great question.
29:51
I think as a person of color,
29:54
as a queer person, when
29:57
you go through experiences, you often
30:00
and to use your story
30:02
in order to advocate for change, and
30:06
knowing that things are not going to change
30:08
in terms of LGBTQ policies, if
30:10
they were to change our LGBTQ policies,
30:13
then I'd be like, Okay, my work is done. But
30:15
if they didn't until the day
30:18
they change their LGBTQ policies and actually
30:20
say we do not
30:23
affirm LGBTQ people within
30:25
their website, make it loud and clear
30:28
that they are homophobic, then I will
30:30
stop talking. I think that's
30:32
the line I'm going to draw, But for now
30:35
that hasn't happened, So I'm going to continue to do
30:38
it. That's really admirable. I think it's
30:40
really cool if you're still energized by
30:42
it. And yeah, I think like
30:44
you have to have a good sense of division within
30:47
your life. I have the Noemi
30:49
that goes to work, the Noemi that goes
30:51
to advocate for LGBTQ people within
30:54
the work that I do outside of
30:57
all of this, and then there's a Noemi
30:59
that speaks out within this
31:02
podcast or within Hillsong
31:04
Realms. Once I walk out of
31:07
here, I'm gonna take a deep
31:09
breath and say, Okay, now let's go
31:11
have fun. I don't need to carry this all
31:13
day with me. But it takes years
31:15
for things to change when you're speaking out,
31:17
and it hurts and it's sad, but
31:20
it's the reality of how Hillsong
31:22
had us before, where Hillsong was our
31:24
whole life. So then to now have it
31:27
only be a small part of your life where you're speaking
31:29
out, that's really hard to make that division.
31:32
But I think it's also empowering to do that,
31:34
to place that situation in a little
31:37
box and to be able to go have fun. I
31:40
think, honestly, that's the best form of
31:42
revenge. That's the best form of justice
31:45
and accountability that I have found within
31:48
to be able to
31:50
pick up and be happy. Yeah, you got
31:52
a smile an her face. Man, it's the hard
31:54
work of healing. Awesome.
31:58
Yeah, should
32:00
we see? Yeah, let's go. Look.
32:03
I want to get a flag. This is New
32:05
York Pride twenty twenty two, my
32:08
first time here. For me,
32:10
it feels like the best end to my story.
32:13
We started the Pride Parade just a couple of blocks
32:15
from Hillsong Church. It no
32:17
longer has the power to hurt me. It's
32:20
fun. Welcome to my
32:22
life. It all
32:24
came together and it
32:27
all became even more
32:30
special and monumental in my life.
32:33
When I was able to walk in the Pride
32:35
Parade, I
32:37
got to take back the start and finish
32:40
where I wanted to finish, without
32:43
someone telling me where to go or what to do, and
32:45
telling me who I could or couldn't love. I
32:49
think that for me was very special.
32:53
You could hear Teddy barking in the back. He
32:55
also believes it was special, even though he didn't go. It
33:02
brings me to tears because I
33:05
went through so many dark nights and
33:08
to just hear myself embrace
33:11
all of me in that parade and
33:14
just like seeing the people around cheering
33:16
and like embracing and yelling and accepting
33:19
me was like a very
33:21
big contrast in comparison to my
33:24
experience at a Hillsong where
33:26
I was told to complete opposite. So
33:30
yeah, a
33:34
lot of emotions. I
33:39
started the series wanting to do this, get
33:42
answers from Hillsong. I'm
33:44
still waiting to shine
33:46
a light on things Hillsong didn't want to see.
33:49
We've done that, and to take
33:51
back power. This march
33:53
and this series was definitely a
33:56
take back from me. I'm
33:59
nomoibe and this is false
34:01
prophets, and I want to thank everyone
34:03
who shared their stories with me. Special
34:09
thanks to l Hardy. The series
34:11
producer was Louise Cotton, Assistant
34:14
producer was Leo Schick. Thanks
34:16
to our executive producer Alex
34:18
Holland's sound design was
34:21
by David Thomas. Location
34:23
production in Australia was by Sharon
34:26
Davies and thanks to our production
34:28
manager Carrie Louder. The
34:33
development producer was Naomi Harvey.
34:36
False Prophets Hillsong is a story Glass
34:38
production and is distributed by iHeartRadio.
34:42
The executive producer from iHeartRadio
34:44
is Dylan Fagan, with special thanks
34:47
to beth N Macaluso.
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