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1:13

Hi, my name is Ted McGovern. I'm a

1:16

producer for a day here on Your Hustle. I'm

1:18

a listener from Seattle. The following episode

1:21

of Your Hustle contains language and content that

1:23

may not be appropriate for all listeners. Discretion

1:26

is advised.

1:35

Do you think there's ghosts here? I

1:37

know there's ghosts here. Officer

1:41

Fernandez has worked in corrections for

1:43

over a decade. So yeah, he's

1:45

got a few stories for sure. A while

1:48

back, you, me, our editor Amy

1:50

Standen, and one of our team members inside

1:53

San Quentin, Tony DeTrinidad, sat

1:55

down to talk to him.

1:57

How do you know that there's ghosts here? I've

2:02

seen one myself. I

2:06

used to work at the hospital. It

2:09

was a small hospital and there

2:12

was a nurse that came frantically

2:15

crying because she

2:17

had to go to records and records

2:19

was located on the basement of

2:22

the old hospital.

2:24

So, Erlan, this hospital that they're talking

2:26

about, it's the old hospital. And

2:28

I actually have not seen it, but everything

2:31

you hear about it is that it is this abandoned

2:33

building. And I mean, St. Quentin's old,

2:35

right? When was it built? St. Quentin

2:37

was built in 1852. And

2:39

I think the hospital was one of the earlier

2:41

buildings. And the older part

2:44

of the prison are definitely

2:46

the spooky parts.

2:49

And I was like, what happened? I

2:52

saw the ghost. She said, she

2:55

was really upset and crying and scared.

2:59

And just to make her feel

3:01

comfortable, I said something

3:04

that perhaps opened

3:07

the gate or opened the door. What

3:12

did you say? I

3:15

said, oh, I wish

3:17

it happened to me because I would chase

3:19

after. I

3:23

said that and it kind of did

3:25

the trick. It made her feel at ease,

3:27

made her feel better. And I told her, well,

3:29

if it helps, I'll go with you next time. And

3:32

she was cool with that. Did you believe her?

3:35

No. I hear the stories before though.

3:37

Like this wasn't the first time. Older people

3:40

have saw it too. But you

3:42

never think it's gonna happen to you until

3:45

it does. So

3:49

one time I'm working in the

3:51

overflow for crisis beds.

3:54

And the crisis beds is more of a mental health breakdown.

3:56

Yeah. And so when we had full

3:59

capacity. we had what is called

4:01

the overflow and that was located

4:03

on the top floor on the floor of that

4:06

hospital. So when I showed

4:08

up up to the fourth floor

4:10

there I was by myself. And what time

4:12

is it now? Around 9.50

4:14

at night. As soon

4:17

as I step out of the

4:20

elevator the light flickers

4:23

and I was like that's interesting but

4:26

it's an old building so things happen. You hear

4:28

noises at

4:31

the end of the hallway immediately

4:34

to my right I

4:39

saw a light like glowing

4:42

and a big white gown.

4:45

Like a lady ghost? It was a lady. It

4:48

was a lady. The

4:51

story is that this lady

4:53

died in that building because

4:57

she used to be an inmate here.

5:00

What does she look like? Like her face? Like

5:02

was she a white lady? Was she pretty? It

5:04

was 18 something 52 and they was here

5:06

so you know she was a white lady. She was a

5:08

white lady for sure but I didn't

5:12

get a really good look because

5:15

there was one light at the middle

5:17

of the hallway and that's

5:19

about it. It was dark

5:22

and that's why it was creepy because when

5:24

I saw the ghost it

5:27

almost had its own light.

5:32

Did she like look at you? Yeah

5:34

she stopped stared at

5:36

me and then I looked at her

5:38

and then she continued

5:41

to go down the hallway

5:43

at the end of the building. I

5:46

have to know was she

5:48

walking floating?

5:52

Floating. So

5:55

you said like this lady used

5:57

to be an inmate here what was her

5:59

story?

5:59

story.

6:01

The story I've heard from people who who

6:03

was here before my time was

6:06

that she wasn't in May and

6:09

she was let's say a lady

6:11

of the night and then

6:13

she was incarcerated for I don't

6:15

know what reason and then I think

6:19

she was being abused in

6:21

here and she passed from

6:23

either a disease or by

6:26

being abused.

6:27

How did you feel when you saw

6:28

her?

6:31

I gave chase. You did.

6:33

I gave chase and I was yelling

6:36

I was like hey come here because

6:40

I said I was gonna do that so I was like pre-programmed

6:43

to have that reaction and

6:46

so I ran all the way down the hallway

6:49

and I didn't see the ghost anymore and

6:52

so I started going back and then I

6:54

saw the light flicker again and then

6:57

I stopped and then I felt

7:00

a cold air rushed

7:03

through me

7:04

from back

7:14

and so I started praying.

7:16

I started praying. What

7:19

was the prayer? I just prayed to

7:21

God and He held me with the situation

7:24

like I was scared. I

7:26

said you know please Lord help

7:29

me overcome this fear, this situation

7:31

in the name of Jesus your son

7:33

Christ and I

7:35

prayed to be forgiven for

7:38

what I did for evoking

7:41

the presence of this person because I

7:43

think that was my fault for saying

7:46

that to the nurse. I

7:48

kind of like opened that door. Open that portal.

7:52

I obviously believe in these entities

7:54

they do exist but it also

7:57

has to do with you making that connection or open

8:00

that portal.

8:01

Yeah. You kind of challenged

8:03

it.

8:04

I did. I did.

8:07

But then you had to stay up there

8:09

until you... Yeah, I had to stay up there the whole night by

8:13

myself while with the inmate. But

8:15

let me say this, after I gave that prayer,

8:18

I felt relieved and

8:21

kind of like reset things and

8:23

I was fine. But like for eight

8:25

hours

8:26

you sat there in that creepy area?

8:27

Yes. Good job.

8:30

I had to do it. And you weren't afraid because of

8:32

the prayer? You felt protected? Yes. The

8:35

power of prayer. I felt

8:37

at ease. And were you

8:39

afraid to go back there? I know you said it's your job,

8:41

but... No, soon after that, that whole building

8:44

was condemned because it had a lot of like...

8:46

Coves. Yeah. As

8:49

best. Pretty abandoned for

8:51

more than a year. So when

8:53

you signed out in the morning in the

8:56

log book

8:59

that

9:03

you write a comment. Oh

9:05

yeah, you had to just write a report. That's a good

9:08

question. No, I just like to go home and sleep.

9:12

So let me ask you, Erlon, do you believe in ghosts?

9:14

I believe there are other things. Like

9:17

some people look at ghosts as bad. I

9:19

don't think ghosts are bad. I think ghosts just want

9:21

you to be like, hey look man, tell

9:23

my wife, man, the money is under. You

9:25

know what I'm saying? They want to pass out. The policy is somewhere.

9:28

Yeah, I think they want to get out whatever they didn't get

9:30

out. Okay, so you're

9:31

a yes. Tony, do you believe in ghosts? I

9:33

believe in everything.

9:34

Okay, Amy, what about you? Do you believe in ghosts? Do

9:36

not believe in ghosts.

9:37

No. She named her. She's

9:40

a cast member. That's right, she never gave a cast member. She's a friendly ghost.

9:42

So do you believe in ghosts, Nigel? You do?

9:43

I think there's... Yeah, I do. So

9:46

what do you think of that? That there's four out of five people in this room believing

9:48

ghosts.

9:49

Four out of five? Yeah.

9:51

Yeah, that's a good ratio.

9:52

Yeah, there's only one non-believer in

9:54

here. Who ended up naming

9:57

someone to go? I named your son after a ghost.

9:59

Oh really? That's an interesting

10:02

fact. That's a story for another day.

10:07

Well

10:07

thank you.

10:07

Oh you're welcome. Can you do this for us?

10:10

Can you tell us your name and how

10:12

many years you've been working for the department or Sanquin?

10:15

Officer Fernandez, I've been working

10:17

in San Quentin State Prison, going

10:19

on 16 years now.

10:22

And you've seen one ghost?

10:24

I've seen one ghost. One

10:26

enough. One too many.

10:40

Okay, so you've been wanting to do a spooky episode

10:42

for a long time. I mean, maybe even

10:45

since season one.

10:45

Yeah, I figured there's

10:48

got to be some great ghost stories out there

10:50

in prison somewhere. We just

10:52

had to go dig them up. I'm

10:54

Nigel Poor. And I'm Erlon

10:56

Woods. And this is Ear Hustle from

10:58

PRX's Radio 2.

11:05

Okay, so my problem with ghost stories,

11:08

and the reason I was maybe a little reluctant

11:10

to do this episode, is that a lot of

11:12

times, Erlon, they aren't

11:15

actually stories. Do you know what I mean?

11:16

Like, there's no twists, no

11:19

plots, or they just actually

11:21

not scary?

11:22

Well, it's just like, I saw a ghost, I

11:24

had a creepy feeling, and it's not a story.

11:26

I mean, we talk about this all the time. A story

11:28

needs to have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

11:31

Not just like,

11:31

I felt something. Right, right. But,

11:34

you know I wasn't going to give up that easy on

11:36

this idea. So, lately,

11:39

whenever we go to a new prison, I always

11:42

ask around.

11:43

Like, you got a story? You got one? You

11:45

got a ghost story? Everywhere we go. I mean,

11:47

Erlon, you are tenacious. Everyone

11:50

I meet. First, have you seen

11:53

a ghost? No, I have not. We

11:55

are wondering, if you have a, have

11:57

you ever seen a ghost in prison? No.

11:59

No, if you know anyone

12:02

in here that has a ghost story, that is dope. I

12:04

don't know if it's a ghost story. You're right

12:06

up here? Oh, I see a ghost

12:09

story. Excuse me, are you

12:11

looking for you? You have one

12:13

of these cars. Have you ever

12:15

seen a ghost here? No, but I've heard about

12:17

some of them. Do you have one of

12:19

these cameras? No. By

12:22

chance, you have a ghost story. That

12:24

you've seen a ghost, I heard. I've

12:26

seen a ghost.

12:31

I knew we'd eventually find one. And

12:33

we did.

12:33

Yes, we did. So the woman we're about to

12:35

hear from is named Shannon Guillory. She's

12:38

incarcerated at the California Institution

12:41

for Women, or as we call it, C.I.W.

12:44

And she told us about something that

12:46

happened late one night when she

12:48

was working as a janitor in C.I.W.'s

12:51

medical wing.

12:53

We had walked into this one exam room, and it

12:55

was already cleaned. We had cleaned in there earlier. So

12:57

we were just really just going to dump the trash.

13:00

And went in there, zoomed in, zoomed out,

13:03

closed the door.

13:06

As we were leaving, I noticed that these

13:08

blinds that were closed and always

13:11

were closed were open. Like, hey, did

13:13

somebody go in there and open the blinds? You

13:15

know that that doctor doesn't like their blinds

13:18

to be open. We knew not to mess with

13:20

the blinds.

13:20

So we opened the door, closed

13:23

the blinds. Nobody remembered opening the blinds

13:25

up. And now

13:29

we're leaving the room, and the blinds

13:31

are open again.

13:32

So I was like, so did you

13:34

close the blinds? We said, yeah, we

13:36

closed the blinds.

13:40

Went back in there, opened it up, closed

13:42

the blinds again.

13:43

But before we could even walk out the room, the blinds

13:45

opened all on their own.

13:47

They were like this, and then they just started slowly

13:50

opening.

13:53

So whatever it was, I was trying to get your attention

13:55

somehow. Yeah, probably,

13:58

but I didn't want it. I

14:00

got spooked so I went outside the room. I

14:03

don't know what's going on. We're looking

14:05

at these blinds and wondering why is

14:07

this happening? And

14:09

the chair behind

14:10

the doctor's

14:12

desk just started turning. All

14:16

on its own. Nobody's in there. The

14:18

wind is not blowing. The air conditioner is not

14:20

on. There's no reason for that chair

14:22

to be moving. And when you say

14:24

moving, how is it moving? It was

14:26

spinning. Moving fast. It

14:28

was slow.

14:32

Did y'all think y'all were being pumped?

14:34

No. Nobody

14:36

else was there with us. Just my little

14:38

crew. That was it. It was five of us girls and

14:41

our supervisor. I

14:44

walked out that building. I told my boss, I will

14:46

not be coming in here to work with you anymore

14:48

at night. And I left.

14:52

I never worked there again. That

14:54

was a little too spooky for me.

15:01

So what'd you think? Did that reach the level of a

15:03

ghost story?

15:04

I should be asking you that, Nigel.

15:07

Well, I think it

15:09

sort of was that scary

15:11

stuff is happening. But what I want to

15:13

know is the why of it. Why

15:16

is a ghost doing something? Why would it be

15:18

hanging out there? I mean,

15:19

I'm not sure people want to stick around

15:21

long enough to ask those type of questions.

15:24

You know what I mean? Like, you

15:26

see a ghost,

15:27

it's time to do it moving.

15:29

I know, but I'm just going back to what

15:31

we need for a story. Like, what

15:33

is the ghost unfinished business? You know,

15:36

like, what is it trying to communicate to us?

15:38

Does it want help? Does it want to scare

15:40

us?

15:41

I can guarantee you that if

15:43

a ghost is in prison, it's trying

15:45

to get out like everybody else in

15:47

there.

15:49

Okay, come on. But there's

15:51

got to be more to it. There just has to be.

15:53

We figured the best way to understand this

15:55

ghost's motivation to be a ghost

15:58

would be to go to the spot where Shannon had been working. working

16:00

at night in the medical building.

16:02

So, Erlon, when we got there, it was

16:04

the most ordinary place ever.

16:07

You know, linoleum floors, ugly

16:09

medical lighting. It

16:10

was just regular, regular hospital.

16:13

So we thought we should talk to some of the officers

16:15

who worked there to see if they'd heard any

16:17

spooky stories about this place.

16:19

There's a cell down the hallway

16:21

too that they have seen

16:24

a man inside the cell. An inmate have

16:26

came and told me this. It has a bad

16:28

vibe. Do you feel a bad vibe down there?

16:31

Yes, you can. Like what happens when you walk by? It

16:33

just feels eerie. Does your skin

16:35

get like tingly? Yes. Does

16:37

the temperature change? No, no temperature

16:39

changes. It just feels odd.

16:44

Erlon, again, not a

16:46

story, just a feeling.

16:48

Yep, we're going to have to do

16:50

a little better than that.

16:52

Do you think women's prisons in general would

16:54

attract ghosts?

16:54

I

16:58

don't know. I would think

17:00

all prisons would attract bad vibes. We

17:03

do have some people that have

17:05

a bad, our era

17:06

is just bad.

17:11

Just down the hall from where the officers were hanging

17:13

out at was the exam room where

17:15

Shannon has seen the window shades and

17:18

the spinning chair.

17:19

Okay, so we're walking down the hallway at Long-Term Medical

17:21

Housing past the office where we heard

17:23

the story about the chair that swiveled

17:26

around on its own. And Erlon's

17:28

scared he's holding onto my hand because he's so afraid.

17:32

Really?

17:35

Yes. And

17:37

we found it and you know what? It turns

17:40

out it was an OBGYN office.

17:42

An OBGYN's

17:45

office. I'm no expert, but

17:47

I would think there would be some intense

17:50

feelings around that spot. Yeah,

17:52

I think there probably are sad stories

17:54

that get played out here and maybe

17:56

something does get left behind. That's a motivation

17:59

for a ghost story now.

18:02

So next we headed outside behind

18:04

the building. Lieutenant Newborg wanted

18:07

to show us something.

18:09

See the long ramp right here to our left.

18:12

Of course that leads to that door, but if we want,

18:14

we can walk around and walk down and

18:16

talk on the door. Okay. I'll

18:18

try my key.

18:19

Okay. So there was something else

18:22

about the building where CIW's medical facility is.

18:24

Might be kind

18:27

of relevant for a ghost story. Might be fertile

18:29

grounds, Nigel. You

18:32

can see the parking here in this long ramp. It's

18:34

perfect for getting a body, heavier

18:36

light on a gurney down here for

18:39

storage,

18:40

short-term storage. So currently we

18:42

just came down a ramp to

18:44

a door that

18:46

leads to the morgue. The

18:49

morgue from back in the day,

18:51

maybe back in the sixties. So

18:56

what I know is CIW here

18:58

since the early fifties and as inmates

19:01

passed, they had an onsite morgue to house

19:03

the bodies until the corner can come pick them up. And

19:05

before the city had the ability to store

19:07

the bodies in their own morgue, they utilized

19:10

this space in addition. So if somebody

19:12

passed on the streets, they'd bring them here for storage until

19:14

they can get them to the families in a funeral. I

19:18

haven't seen anything myself, heard stories. There's

19:21

always been stories of ghosts and institutions.

19:24

Ghosts feel they've been grabbed from behind in towers

19:26

and stuff. This institution is no different.

19:30

Why would ghosts even want to be

19:32

out of prison? Well

19:34

death occurs, you know, often

19:36

inside prison from natural causes, if

19:39

not from incidents and riots, overdoses

19:41

from drugs.

19:44

I think energy transfers in different ways.

19:46

So could energies be

19:48

staying around that actually have the ability to affect

19:50

our world we're in? I think it's possible.

19:53

You think it could be

19:54

incarcerated ghosts

19:56

and people who work here ghosts? Wingling?

19:59

Yeah.

19:59

Absolutely. And I would lean more towards

20:02

the people who actually died in this area. I

20:04

think the energy would be like in homes. You hear ghost

20:06

stories in houses that somebody who passed in

20:08

the home, the energy stays there. So I think if

20:11

anything, going around here are the individuals that passed

20:13

here on grounds that

20:15

still tend to

20:18

hang out for whatever reason. Do you,

20:21

and forgive me for asking this question, if

20:23

you were ever in that situation, do you think you'd find your

20:26

ghost hanging out here?

20:28

No, hopefully I don't pass

20:31

here at CIW. I

20:34

don't know. I

20:36

have my own thoughts and beliefs, of course, on what

20:38

happens after, if anything. But

20:41

not about finding a way to find a little more

20:43

palm trees and sandy beach type of a something

20:46

that they hang out and hunt some turtles

20:48

and some crabs or something other than the institution.

20:52

He knows why would a ghost want to be

20:54

at a place that's so pretty

20:57

unpleasant?

20:59

I don't know. Some people

21:01

come in young, this is all they know. So

21:03

if this is out of their mind, believes maybe it was a home

21:05

and they stay here or there's

21:07

lock. And who knows the

21:09

rules that govern the realm of.

21:13

I think the sad part comes from

21:15

just being away from family. And

21:19

I lost my mom to cancer, but we were

21:21

able to be there through that. So I think that's,

21:24

that takes away some of the sadness from

21:26

it. And I think it's the separation from the

21:28

public inside institution and passing in prison

21:31

is a lonely thing. And maybe

21:33

that's part of why there's more ghosts stories.

21:51

We'll be back after a quick break. Yeah,

21:53

don't you dare disappear. Don't

21:57

you disappear, Erlon. We're

22:06

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22:08

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22:08

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23:01

So

23:05

we wanted to talk to you because we heard you have either

23:07

like a spooky story, a scary story,

23:10

something about a haunting maybe?

23:13

It's about events around

23:16

which some folklore evolved.

23:20

Kelton O'Connor spent about

23:22

six years on D-Yard, a psychiatric

23:25

yard at Salinas Valley State Prison,

23:28

which is a level four prison a few hours

23:30

away from San Francisco. Right. And he's at

23:32

San Quentin now.

23:33

And that's where our editor, Amy, our

23:35

inside colleague, Tony DeFoia, and

23:38

I sat him down

23:38

to talk.

23:40

Salinas Valley State Prison is one of the more

23:43

rough prisons in the state. So for

23:45

Salinas Valley, D-Yard was

23:47

pretty mellow. But for psychiatric

23:50

yards in general, it was pretty rough. works,

24:01

then those individuals behave well

24:03

and they end up on the lower security yards. And

24:06

then there's certain individuals that no matter how you medicate

24:08

them, they still act out. And

24:11

so they end up on the high security.

24:14

People commit violence in some cases because of

24:17

the voices in their head and you don't know

24:20

why they're doing it at that time. They're the only person

24:22

that knows why it is they're

24:24

doing this and it can be quite random. You

24:27

know, you can be attacked by somebody because

24:30

they think that you're plotting against

24:32

them or something. When

24:35

I was first arrived at Senates Valley State

24:38

Prison, somebody told me this story

24:40

about an individual named

24:43

Gary. Gary was

24:45

someone who, years previous,

24:47

had decided that he did not want

24:49

to live with anybody anymore. He didn't want

24:51

to have a cellmate. So something that happens to people

24:54

or locked up sometimes, they just get sick of having cellmates

24:56

for different reasons. And

24:58

so he went to his doctors

25:01

and said, if you don't give

25:03

me a single cell, I'm gonna kill my cellmate.

25:08

When you kill your cellmate in the system, that's

25:10

one of the things that can get you put on single cell status.

25:13

So there's a clear

25:15

purpose by threatening that and

25:17

when they didn't give him his single cell status,

25:20

Gary went and killed his cellmate.

25:26

Gary was put on single cell status for 10 years

25:29

and over the course of this time, the doctors came

25:31

to Gary repeatedly and said, well, we're

25:33

thinking about, do you feel like you're ready for

25:35

a cellmate again? And every

25:38

time they came to Gary and said, well, we're thinking

25:40

you've been doing so good lately that we'll maybe

25:42

give you a cellmate. How do you feel about that? He said, well, I'll

25:44

kill him. And they go,

25:46

okay, and would back off on it. And

25:49

finally, after 10 years, they just did it.

25:52

They just said, well, you know, we

25:55

think you'll behave yourself. So

25:57

they give him a cellmate and that cellmate's name

25:59

was Shooze. I never met him

26:01

because by the time I got to the yard Gary had killed

26:03

shoes. Gary

26:08

had killed shoes in his sleep. If

26:12

I remember correctly he had strangled them. So

26:14

I believe on the first night that they were in the cell, they

26:18

put Gary back on single cell status after

26:20

that. So it was

26:22

something of a tale of caution

26:25

that people passed around, you know, you

26:27

really want to do the footwork to

26:29

find a cellmate you feel good about and not let

26:32

the doctors just put whoever in there. And

26:35

of course the cell where shoes

26:37

was killed, some folklore evolved

26:40

around that cell. That's how that particular

26:42

cell came to be known as the

26:44

haunted cell in the yard in

26:46

Salinas Valley State Prison.

26:49

Did you ever walk up to the cell

26:51

and just look inside of it? Yeah. Yeah.

26:55

And was there anything remarkable about it? No,

26:57

that was just a normal prison cell.

27:00

What I found interesting is that it was

27:02

frequently empty and

27:04

nobody ever stayed there for very long. People

27:07

didn't like living in the cell. Who knows?

27:10

Maybe it's because of the folklore, right?

27:12

Or maybe there was something, you

27:15

know, about that cell. I don't know.

27:17

If you had been assigned to that cell, would you live there?

27:21

I'm someone who's prone

27:23

to flights of morbid

27:26

thoughts and I'm easily spooked.

27:30

I had a lot of trauma when I was young and it ended

27:32

up causing me to be flighty.

27:37

Scary books and scary movies like really get ahold of me, you

27:40

know? So any

27:42

cell for me, I can get carried away. Maybe

27:46

I would have been particularly freaked out by that

27:48

cell and maybe it would

27:50

have only been as weird and creepy as any

27:52

other cell appears to me. Have

27:55

you ever worried that your cell would kill

27:57

you while you were asleep? Had

28:00

a cellmate who's a really paranoid guy once

28:03

and he thought that I was going to kill him in his sleep

28:06

he was very worried that I would kill him in his sleep and The

28:10

thing that sometimes occurs when

28:12

somebody's that paranoid is that they think they have to kill

28:14

you first I Think

28:19

that like the question like have you Ever

28:23

been scared your cellmate was going to kill you

28:25

is a really interesting question because I was introduced

28:28

to this sort of like Tail

28:31

and this fear when I was

28:34

really young My

28:36

father had done 20 years in

28:38

prison and when he got out and

28:40

I first went to live with him when I was 11 He

28:44

actually told me a bedtime story

28:46

that was about two prisoners

28:49

living in a cell One

28:53

prisoner he comes in he's a new guy.

28:55

They just meet on the first night Says

28:57

hey, just so you know when I go to sleep

29:00

you might notice tattoo on my back. Sometimes

29:03

it does interesting things Don't

29:05

worry about it. No harm can come

29:07

to you Some people really get surprised by it though,

29:09

but just don't worry about it Okay, and if you

29:12

want to talk to me about it, just don't wake me up. Just wait

29:14

until tomorrow So,

29:16

um, we'll call one guy Paul

29:18

and the other guy Chris Paul's the one with

29:20

the tattoos just come in and told Chris

29:22

That sometimes tattoo does something

29:25

interesting at night So

29:28

Chris stays up at night on the

29:30

first night. He's so curious. What

29:32

is the deal with this tattoo? What happens with this guy's

29:34

tattoo when he goes to sleep? Just

29:37

when he's about to fall asleep and give up and think that Paul

29:40

is messing with him Chris sees

29:42

that something strange happens on that tattoo. It's almost

29:44

like the tattoo like

29:46

there's a ripple in it like it's water

29:48

or something and Then

29:52

all of a sudden right before his eyes the tattoo

29:54

comes alive tattoo

29:56

of a dragon the dragon comes

29:58

alive and and looks at

30:00

him. And

30:03

in the dragon's claws is his eyeball.

30:06

And

30:08

he's shocked.

30:12

But nevertheless, the art

30:14

starts to move and he's hypnotized by it. And he watches

30:16

this dragon come alive and look

30:18

at him and then turn away and start flying off into

30:20

the distance. And the

30:23

tattoo becomes just a scene of the countryside.

30:27

So he now feels like he's like a bird flying

30:29

through the countryside. And just

30:31

looking at everything happening, he sees people driving

30:34

along roads and walking along sidewalks

30:37

and working on farms. And

30:40

he watches this and it just goes on and on and on

30:42

for hours. And finally,

30:45

it stops. The dragon comes back

30:47

and then reassumes its position on

30:49

a pulse back and

30:52

freezes in the same position it was at at the beginning

30:54

of the night, holding this eyeball on its

30:56

claws. And

31:00

then of course, it's on breakfast time and

31:03

Chris hasn't gotten very much sleep. And

31:05

of course, he's amazed and he wants

31:07

to ask Paul everything about his tattoo.

31:09

And he's like, well, where did you get this tattoo?

31:12

And like, it's so amazing,

31:14

right? And Paul goes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

31:16

I know. Look, I got to go get breakfast and we'll

31:19

talk about it later.

31:23

And so night after night,

31:26

Chris stays up watching Paul's tattoo.

31:28

And one night, the tattoo

31:31

isn't just showing him scenes of the countryside

31:33

and people in the free world. It starts

31:36

to show him scenes of the prison, people he

31:38

knows and he sees every day. And

31:42

those things start to happen in real life

31:44

the next day, right? So

31:47

he sees a scene where in the kitchen,

31:50

there's a riot and one of his friends

31:52

dies. And the next day in reality, there's

31:54

a riot in the kitchen and one of his friends dies. So

31:56

now he's even more interested in this tattoo.

31:59

And after it's told

32:02

the future a number of times successfully,

32:05

one night he's watching it, and it shows

32:07

their cell. He's

32:10

looking down at the tattoo and it's showing him

32:13

and Paul in the same cell getting ready to

32:15

go to sleep at night. And after

32:19

they go to sleep,

32:20

Paul gets up

32:22

and takes a knife

32:24

out from under his pillow

32:25

and stabs Chris over

32:28

and over and over again until Chris is dead.

32:31

And then the tattoo goes back to, you know,

32:35

being a dragon holding his eyeball. And

32:39

of course, Chris now

32:42

has to face the reality of what he's

32:45

going to do. How is he going to

32:47

deal with this information that

32:49

the tattoo has given him?

32:53

And when my father told me this story, he said,

32:56

I said, okay, that's the end of the story.

32:59

Have a good night.

33:03

And naturally I said, well,

33:05

and my brother as well, he

33:07

says, dad, dad, what's, you gotta

33:09

tell us the end of the story. Like, what

33:11

are you doing? It's not over. What happens?

33:15

And he goes, oh, well, he says,

33:17

this is actually a story that you get to finish yourself.

33:21

You get to decide how

33:23

the story ends.

33:25

If you were Chris, what would you do?

33:28

And then he leaves him. He actually just

33:30

lets us sleep on that for the night. I

33:34

think what he was trying to say is that if

33:36

you know somebody is going to kill you, how

33:39

do you deal with that? I think his

33:41

message is that you kill them first. I

33:44

think that's the last thing he said before he left the room. He says,

33:46

what would you do if you're Chris? It's like, you know where

33:48

Paul keeps his knife now. And

33:51

my response to my father

33:53

is I told him there's always a third

33:55

option. You know, you might

33:57

think that it's either. being

34:00

killed or killing,

34:01

right? But there's always a third way. When

34:04

you said to your dad, there's a third option,

34:07

how do you think in his mind he responded

34:09

to that?

34:09

My dad did 20 years in prison, you

34:12

know, during like the 70s and

34:14

80s. And, you

34:16

know, I think a lot of people come

34:18

out of that experience thinking that they

34:20

should instill in their children and

34:23

understanding that, you know, violence is part

34:25

of life and sometimes it's necessary.

34:31

There's a whole lot of information gathering

34:37

that goes on in prison all the time, right?

34:40

Sometimes you might run across confirmable

34:43

evidence that someone else has a plan to do

34:46

you harm. Here it is,

34:49

here's the note, it says kill so-and-so.

34:53

So-and-so is you, you know,

34:55

whatever. I mean, this is like, you know, this

34:57

is a little bit of extraordinary circumstances, but it happens,

35:00

people write down lists of people

35:02

that need to be dealt with. Sometimes those

35:04

lists occasionally. All into someone's

35:06

hands and they say, hey, why don't they tell somebody

35:08

tells you, comes and say, by the way, they're

35:10

gonna knock you off tomorrow. Right.

35:15

It's either the other guy or it's you, right?

35:18

Now who's it gonna be? Do you just sit

35:20

around and hope for the best or

35:22

do you take the initiative?

35:26

So what would you have done

35:29

if you seen that last act

35:31

of that tattoo?

35:32

See, this is what I like about the

35:35

story. Remember how Kelton said there's always

35:37

three choices? Okay. So

35:39

until you're in that situation, I think

35:42

you don't actually know if there is in

35:44

fact a third. And that's what makes

35:46

this story so scary to me because

35:48

it points out that the assumptions you have

35:51

about your own morality might

35:53

not play out the way you think they will when

35:55

you're in a dangerous or spooky situation.

35:58

I mean, you might disappoint yourself.

35:59

Hmm so for me Erlon,

36:02

it's a super successful ghost story,

36:04

okay But what you what

36:07

what you had done? I just you

36:08

know one thing you've taught me

36:09

Don't always answer every

36:12

question that's asked How

36:18

about you What do you

36:20

think I think I listen to that ghost know

36:22

why why I'm not ready to be a ghost

36:24

myself You

36:34

Okay, so before we start I have a really important

36:36

question for you mm-hmm

36:38

do you believe in ghosts no

36:41

no

36:44

Don't know you never believe

36:46

in ghosts Even when you were like

36:48

much younger, maybe but I don't remember I

36:51

mean probably at some point but not now so

36:54

you've never been like afraid at night You've never

36:56

heard like a bump or a boo or something.

36:59

No All right, I gotta have you come to

37:01

my house because I believe in them All

37:04

right, all right, let's get down to business you ready mm-hmm

37:06

my name is Casper Colin right now I'm

37:09

getting ready for Halloween. I'm making my

37:11

costume. It is a business hot dog.

37:13

Yeah, okay groovy Your

37:16

hustle is produced by Nigel poor Erlon

37:18

woods Amy standin Bruce Wallace

37:21

and Rassan,

37:21

New York Thomas Shabnob

37:24

sigmund is that managing producer the

37:26

producing team inside San Quentin includes

37:29

Steve Brooks Darrell Sadiq Davis

37:31

Tony to Trinidad and Tom win The

37:34

inside managing producer is Tony to find

37:36

Erlon woods sound designs and engineers

37:39

the show with help from Fernando Arruda

37:41

Rashid cinnamon in Darrell Sadiq Davis

37:44

thanks to acting Warren Smith at San

37:46

Quentin Acting Worden

37:48

Hill and Lieutenant New York at the California

37:51

Institution

37:52

for women for their support of the show. Thanks

37:54

also to this woman here. I

37:57

Am Lieutenant G. M. R. E.

37:59

Berry the top information officer

38:01

at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center

38:04

and I approved this episode.

38:07

This episode was made possible by

38:09

the Just Trust, working to amplify

38:12

the voices, vision, and power of communities

38:14

that are transforming the justice system. For

38:17

more information about the episode, check

38:19

out the show notes on Ear Hustle's website EarHustleSQ.com.

38:24

You can also find out more about the show on

38:27

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38:29

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38:45

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And don't forget to sign up for our

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And while you're at it, leave us a review

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appreciate you for doing

39:18

it. Music for this episode came from Antoine

39:20

Banks, Rashid Zimmerman,

39:22

and me, Erlon Woods. Ear

39:24

Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from

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39:35

I'm Erlon Woods. I'm Nigel Poor.

39:38

Thanks for listening.

39:59

I pray for our sister's name.

40:06

Hey there, it's Nigel and Erlon,

40:09

here to tell you about a new series from our

40:11

fellow radio topia show, Radio Diary.

40:14

It's called The Unmarked Graveyard, and Erlon,

40:17

I'm so excited about

40:17

this one. In the waters

40:20

off of New York City, there's a narrow strip of

40:22

land called Heart Island. More than a

40:24

million people are buried there in mass graves

40:26

with no headphones. Over

40:28

the next few weeks, the award-winning team

40:31

at Radio Diaries

40:32

will be untangling mysteries from America's

40:34

largest military. Neil

40:36

Harris was last seen in Inwood, New

40:38

York on December 12th. So many questions,

40:41

so many questions. You can't help but

40:43

wonder what her life has been.

40:45

I never went back and I

40:47

never looked around again. Erlon,

40:49

I've already heard one episode of this show.

40:51

It is fantastic. I cannot

40:54

recommend it highly enough. It sounds interesting,

40:56

but nobody has been forgotten.

40:59

It's complex, it's amazing.

41:02

Subscribe to Radio Diaries wherever you get your

41:04

podcasts.