0:01

Hello, it's Erlon and Nigel. Thank

0:03

you so much to everyone who has

0:05

already donated to support Radiotopia and Ear

0:07

Hustle during our fall fundraiser. We love

0:10

reading the comments listeners leave us when you

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0:16

you for your work. Ear Hustle was

0:19

my gateway to Radiotopia, and then I

0:21

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0:23

alive. Please keep making

0:25

these interesting and wonderfully weird

0:27

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0:53

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shows like this should exist. Your

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shows are independent and listener supported,

1:00

meaning creators like us retain full

1:02

ownership and get to make our

1:04

own creative choices. Thank you

1:07

so much for listening and supporting our

1:09

work. You can go to

1:11

radiotopia.fm slash donate to make your

1:13

gift today. Thank you and

1:15

good looking. I

1:19

get the BV. Hello,

1:21

Ear Hustle world. This is retired

1:23

Lieutenant Sam Robinson, the former public

1:26

information officer at San Quentin State

1:28

Prison. I have the

1:30

honor on this 100th episode, who

1:32

would have thought several years ago

1:34

we'd get to 100. Who would

1:37

have thought we would have done a podcast if you'd asked me. Here

1:40

I am, Nigel and Erlon. Thank you for giving me

1:42

this honor to do this listening and learning

1:44

today. There's something different than I've done in

1:46

the past. I'm just

1:49

as good as at the intro

1:51

as I was at the outro. Here

1:53

we go. The following episode of Ear

1:56

Hustle contains language that may not be

1:58

suitable for all listeners. discretion

2:00

is advised. Welcome,

2:10

welcome, welcome, welcome, Latham B. Welcome,

2:13

welcome, welcome to our big family

2:15

and then it goes on to

2:18

Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

2:20

Latham B. Welcome, welcome,

2:22

welcome to our family.

2:25

We don't do drugs. We don't drink.

2:27

We don't pee in the shower. Welcome,

2:31

welcome, welcome, welcome Latham B.

2:38

Nigel, Nigel, Nigel, can

2:41

you believe that this is our

2:43

100th episode? Amazing,

2:47

right? I like to say a good few notes.

2:50

100 started when I was inside,

2:53

now I'm outside. Yep.

2:55

Aren't you so glad we're on this adventure

2:57

together? Hell yeah, I'm glad we're on this

2:59

adventure together. It's been an enjoyable, enjoyable

3:03

journey. I'm

3:05

Erlon Woods. I'm Nigel Poor and

3:08

this is Ear Hustle from PRX's

3:10

Radiotopia. Boom, boom,

3:12

boom, boom, boom, boom. Boom. So

3:17

to celebrate our 100th, we are

3:20

revisiting our very first episode, Sally's.

3:22

Remember that one, Erlon? Yes, I

3:24

do. Erlon,

3:27

this is our first episode, so it's probably

3:30

a good time to tell everybody what ear

3:32

hustling means. Ear hustling is

3:34

prison slang for eavesdropping. Listening in to

3:36

something that may not be your business

3:38

and today we're going to hear about

3:41

Sally's. It's a big deal

3:43

in prison who your cellmate is, isn't it?

3:45

Huge. Now,

3:49

we sound good. You think so? I think

3:51

we was on point, you know, listening to

3:53

that. All right, all

3:56

right. So yes, we are revisiting that

3:58

episode, but this time we're the twist.

4:00

It's the Women's Prison Edition. All

4:03

the stories in this 100th episode

4:05

come from the California Institution for Women.

4:08

And that means we're not talking about

4:10

cellies anymore. We're gonna have to change

4:12

that language of just a bit. Why

4:15

do you think women are bunkies

4:17

and men are cellies? I think it's just the

4:20

culture. When men write us

4:22

they usually say celly. We're just saying roommate or bunkies.

4:24

Yeah. When you hear the word celly what does it

4:26

make you think about? Men's prison. Absolutely.

4:29

Before we go further do you call someone your cellie or

4:31

bunkie? I call them my bunkie. Okay. So

4:33

here I think it tends to be

4:35

bunkie. Mm-hmm. We refer to each other

4:38

as bunkies. Bunkies. We should call this

4:40

episode bunkies. Yeah.

4:42

Bunkies. So

4:46

listeners probably know that the

4:48

California Institution for Women or

4:50

C.I.W.S. is called. Yep. C.I.W.

4:52

is a women's prison near

4:55

LA where we've been spending

4:57

a lot of time lately.

4:59

They starting to get to

5:01

know us huh? We're still

5:03

kind of learning the ropes but

5:05

it is getting easier to find

5:07

people who want to sit down and

5:09

talk. So on

5:12

a recent visit we

5:19

spent a couple of days talking

5:21

to people at C.I.W. about bunkies

5:25

and it gave us a chance

5:27

to revisit a debate that's as

5:29

old as ear hustle itself. All

5:31

right Erlon you know me well

5:33

enough to know I'm never gonna let this

5:35

go. It is

5:37

the question that hangs over both of

5:40

our heads. Is looking

5:42

for a cellier bunkie like dating? Still

5:45

thinking that way huh Nyes?

5:47

Yeah I'm pondering it. Okay

5:49

this is an ongoing conversation

5:51

Erlon. Ongoing debate. Okay

5:54

I think that trying to find a bunkie or a

5:56

cellie is comparable to

5:58

dating without the sex because

6:00

you're trying to find someone you're comfortable

6:02

with. It's when I say

6:04

that. What do you think? I

6:07

actually agree. I

6:12

think that long pause in there is

6:15

you doing a little victory dance. Really?

6:17

Did I what you think? As

6:19

much as possible. Not

6:22

so fast, though. I actually think of more of

6:24

like a job. Like

6:26

you're interviewing, you have a certain set of

6:28

criteria, that you're looking for. It

6:31

starts off as sort of a professional relationship,

6:33

and then develops into a relationship. If

6:36

that works out in the long term. I said it's a like dating.

6:42

We'll never agree on this. We'll

6:44

never agree on this. Do

6:47

you think that finding, trying to find someone to live

6:49

with, is a little bit like dating? Why not? Thank

6:52

you. It's going to get weird. Okay,

6:55

no, because there are some roommates

6:57

that do date. And I think,

7:00

no. No. Hey,

7:03

I'm appreciating the answers. Right.

7:06

I'm still going to say it's like dating. I love it. It's

7:08

still like dating? It's not like dating. Yeah, it's not. Some

7:10

roommates don't even share food and stuff. You

7:12

just share the space. Yeah. You

7:16

don't have to. You lost this one, Nigel. My

7:20

name is Stephanie. I've been

7:22

incarcerated since June of 2009. Hi, my

7:24

name is Amy. I've

7:27

been here in this institution for about

7:29

eight years. When Amy first arrived at the

7:31

California Institution for Women, Stephanie was one of the

7:33

first people she met. Somebody

7:36

told me, you look like you want to be in a good program. I

7:39

said, well, you know, I'm going to be in a good program. I

7:42

said, well, you know, I'm going to be in a good program.

7:44

I said, well, you know, you

7:46

know, you look like you want to be in a

7:48

good program. I said, well, yes, because I

7:50

want to go home, you know? So I said, why don't

7:52

you talk to that one? And they just pointed to her.

7:54

So I went up to her and I said, they are

7:56

new here. And she was very welcoming. She

7:58

just came from shopping. and she had

8:00

ice cream and I didn't have a spoon with

8:02

me and she used that lid to scoop up

8:04

some ice cream and Gave

8:07

it to me so that I could have some What

8:13

was it about about her that made

8:16

you think this is somebody I want to be friends with I think

8:18

Message has been her aura that

8:20

she was nice smile friendly

8:24

How many arguments? Zero

8:27

we don't zero. No, we don't argue of course.

8:30

We don't we're not in the same room Yep,

8:33

Amy and Stephanie aren't bunkies, which

8:35

is kind of surprising. Yes,

8:37

just because you get along with someone

8:39

doesn't mean you're compatible to live together

8:41

I Don't think she

8:45

would ever live with me. I've seen where

8:47

she lives. It's incredibly organized and you haven't

8:49

seen where I live Can

8:52

you describe I

8:56

wonder I don't want to lose the friendship. I'm

8:58

basically a clean slob and I

9:00

claim it Proud I am

9:02

proud that I'm a clean slob and it works

9:04

to my advantage. That's all I'm gonna say I

9:07

feel like it'd be such interesting

9:09

roommates if you did actually live together. No, it

9:11

couldn't happen. Mm-hmm. They're preserving their friendship

9:14

So Amy and Stephanie aren't bunkies But

9:17

together they work on a project at the

9:20

prison that Erlon I have to say is

9:22

pretty charming Yeah, they're the

9:24

welcoming committee So,

9:26

what is this welcoming committee? August

9:29

of 2019 a female

9:32

inmate removed in and

9:34

nobody knew her and within

9:37

like four days she committed suicide in the

9:40

room in our unit and I

9:44

Just really kind of felt bad that nobody knew

9:47

who she was God

9:49

put it on my heart to start the unity committee.

9:51

I just it just came to me Because

9:54

I keep track of everybody who comes in

9:56

with the date they moved in they're lame

9:58

every time somebody comes into the unit we

10:00

welcome them. Then we have a tour committee

10:02

that gives a tour of the unit, tells

10:05

them about some of the

10:07

rules that the officers want to enforce.

10:09

We have a

10:11

birthday board and then after

10:13

we welcome them we were giving

10:16

out gift bags with some snacks like

10:18

some candy and little soap, some drink,

10:20

just something to go back and say

10:22

hey thanks you know for being part

10:25

of our unit. So

10:28

I could break in here and ask you, Erlon,

10:30

is this what happens when a new guy shows

10:32

up at a men's prison? That they

10:35

get a welcoming committee? Yeah with a little

10:37

gift bag and cute little things inside of it.

10:43

In the men's prison it's more

10:45

according to either your race or

10:47

your gang. The guys

10:50

in your race or your gang they'll pull you

10:52

in and it

10:54

is expected of those cats to bring you some

10:57

type of care package. Okay. You know

10:59

which may have toupees, deodorant, soap, some

11:01

food, you know something like that. So

11:03

they're trying to hook you

11:06

up Wow at the same time

11:08

observing who you are. How do

11:10

you get out? Oh are they observing you

11:12

because they want to figure out your your birthday

11:14

to get it on that birthday board? Hell no.

11:19

Lately we came up with a little

11:21

different twist. We have a little song

11:23

that the girls sing and don't ask

11:27

me to sing. Oh come on. You cannot bring

11:29

that up and not give at least one

11:31

lyric. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

11:33

Latham B. Welcome, welcome, welcome to

11:36

our big family and then it

11:38

goes on to welcome,

11:40

welcome, welcome, welcome. We know this one.

11:43

Shall we join? Welcome, welcome, welcome to our

11:45

family. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

11:50

Latham B. Welcome, welcome, welcome to our big

11:53

family. Oh okay. We got a different word.

11:57

That's fine. I didn't remix the H-word. You're

12:01

gonna make it your own. We don't

12:03

do drugs, we don't drink, we don't

12:05

pee in the shower. Welcome,

12:08

welcome, welcome. Welcome Latham B.

12:11

Is peeing in the shower an issue? There

12:14

are issues, yes. Besides

12:16

urinating. Yes, yes. It

12:19

was just an announcement made in our unit last week

12:21

about please don't do a

12:23

number two in the shower. I know, I know.

12:26

I have to say it. Does that happen? Apparently

12:28

so. Outside

12:32

of a toddler, who does a deuce

12:34

in the shower? Someone

12:36

that's mentally ill, that's not a normal thing to do.

12:39

I mean peeing's okay but. People

12:41

gonna be like what? You pee in the shower? Everybody pee

12:43

in the shower. So

12:47

since Stephanie's part of the welcoming

12:49

committee, I thought it'd be interesting

12:51

to try a little role play. I

12:54

just arrived. Can you tell me what

12:56

would happen if you're welcoming me? I

12:58

would come to your room and I'd say

13:00

hi. I'm Stephanie. Nigel Poor.

13:03

Okay, Nigel. Her nickname is Splenda. Splenda.

13:06

Splenda, okay. So you like to go by

13:08

Nigel or you like to go by Splenda?

13:11

Let's go by Nigel. Nigel, okay, thank you. And

13:14

will you be in our unit for a while? Will

13:16

you be here for a while? Okay, would you be

13:19

interested in telling me your birthday month? June. Okay,

13:21

so next year in June, we'll put your name up

13:24

on the birthday board and then maybe somebody will see

13:26

it and then want to give you a little snack.

13:29

So then I'll write down the day you moved in. So today

13:31

is the 21st of August. Do

13:33

you have any questions right now that I can answer for

13:35

you? Could you give me a little preview of some of

13:37

the do's and don'ts because I really like I'm

13:40

so new. Okay. Yeah,

13:42

some of the officers really how

13:44

you dress outside your room. Some

13:47

of them don't even want you just wearing boxers inside

13:49

the room and they'll

13:52

announce it. So you have

13:54

count, don't have boxers on. Make

13:56

sure you're fully dressed, appropriately dressed. even

14:00

like if you have like a tank top and you

14:02

go outside with your tank top on that

14:04

they can see your bra so it's best

14:06

to just you know be pretty

14:08

much fully clothed if you're

14:10

a golden girl but you don't look like you're over 60

14:13

50 how old

14:15

do you 50 you don't look like you're over same a golden girl

14:18

so oh you're golden girl okay so then

14:20

you can wear your moon move even outside

14:22

the unit if it's really hot but

14:24

you wear a bra with a yeah

14:26

you probably should because I think it is

14:28

a rule that you're supposed to wear your bra

14:31

and then some unfortunately don't and if

14:33

the officers see you and don't want to see all

14:35

that they'll they'll let you know they could write you

14:37

up so we don't want you to have any write-ups

14:39

what about like some of the rules with the

14:41

other ladies in the unit just make sure

14:43

you're minding your own business if

14:46

you have any issues do not go

14:48

to the officer right away go to

14:51

somebody who knows how things are done or

14:53

go to the island inmate advice advisory council

14:55

do not go straight to office could I

14:57

come to one of you too I mean

14:59

you seem yeah we can help you we

15:01

can help you it

15:03

seems like pretty much the number one

15:05

rule of bunkies is do

15:08

not get a CEO any

15:10

reason to come to your room you better not

15:12

bring the police because everybody

15:14

got something going on even if

15:17

it's something as small as an

15:19

extra pillow extra mattress yeah or

15:21

a piece of clothing that's not strictly prison

15:24

issue right the one thing you don't

15:26

want is somebody stuff to get

15:28

taken because of something you did so

15:31

that's a big one but there's a lot of smaller

15:33

things too that can drive a funky

15:35

nuts this

15:38

is Desiree and my pet peeve is because I'm

15:40

on the lower bunk it's somebody

15:42

on the top bunk brushing

15:44

stuff off the top of their

15:46

bed that could fall onto my

15:49

bed hi my name

15:51

is Jasmine and my pet peeve

15:53

for a bunkie is when they

15:55

fart and they just think like oh

15:57

since I'm on the bottom bunk you know

15:59

she can't see and I'll be there like this.

16:02

Ha ha ha. Clean

16:05

up after yourself. You know, I don't

16:07

want to be picking up your hair and

16:09

don't walk in the cell with your shoes

16:11

on because I like to keep a clean

16:13

floor. I hate dirty socks. I

16:16

keep trying to keep your hair. You

16:18

know, I hate dirty socks. I

16:21

like to step off my bed with

16:23

my shoes on. I don't want to have to, oh, you

16:25

got to put on your chonkla, so your little slippers and

16:27

all that. I like to step on a clean

16:29

floor. My

16:31

pet peeves being woken up out of

16:34

a good sleep. Don't do

16:36

it. Let me sleep. One of my personal

16:38

pet peeves is seeing people cut their nails and they

16:40

just let them, like, go. What

16:43

is the correct protocol when you're living in a

16:45

small space when you cut your nails? My

16:48

roommates usually do it over the toilet,

16:50

like, or in the shower or somewhere

16:52

where they can be disposed of properly,

16:54

but in my younger years, I

16:56

hate to admit this, but I've gotten

16:58

inspired over it because it's just gross, especially

17:00

if they go flying. Do you with a

17:02

clipper? They just go flying. You pinch the

17:04

clipper on the sides. If you hold the

17:06

clipper on the sides, the nail stays right

17:08

inside and you can just put it in.

17:11

I have a bowl that I use as a trash can

17:13

at the end of my bed. So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't

17:16

tell me I'm this year's old and I'm finding out

17:18

there's a proper way to use pee

17:20

in there. Yeah, so that

17:22

your nails don't go flying all over other people's beds. That

17:24

is so gross. It also makes something I feel like

17:26

it's a little private. Like, no one wants to see another

17:29

person cut their nails. Yeah, I can

17:31

feel it because we do everything else in

17:33

front of each other. Okay, okay. But

17:35

just don't let them land on my bed. I

17:47

have to say that the cells at CIW

17:50

are much nicer than the ones at

17:52

San Quentin. Oh, no, definitely. Right? They're

17:55

a little bit bigger. Yep. And

17:57

they have windows outside. The

18:00

prisons that were built, I

18:02

guess you want to say in that era had

18:04

windows that open. You know what

18:07

I'm saying? Most prisons

18:09

don't have that at all. I will tell

18:11

you this. The first time I saw a sale

18:13

at San Quentin, I remember it

18:15

so clearly. I almost passed out. I could not

18:17

believe how horrible it was, how inhumane it was.

18:20

When I saw the sale at CIW, I

18:22

was like, okay, I don't want

18:24

to live here, but I could do it. I

18:26

could do it. No, definitely. I

18:28

could have more space. When I seen

18:31

the sale at San Quentin on the

18:33

news, I was like, oh, hell, I

18:35

can't live in that little tiny-ass coffin.

18:38

And they're dark, too. They're so dark. Hello,

18:40

hello. How you doing? All right, all right.

18:42

We're walking down the hallway. The

18:45

fans are so loud here. We're

18:48

walking to Jessica's room. So

18:51

while we were at CIW, we met a

18:53

woman named Jessica, who agreed to let us

18:55

check out the room she shares with her

18:57

monkey. This is it. And

19:00

it's fine. I'm totally excited. Okay, it's pretty

19:02

tidy. Jessica's

19:06

room was well organized. It

19:08

was clean. And I guess

19:10

if I were pushed to have to pick a

19:12

monkey quickly, and if Jessica would have me, I

19:14

mean, she seemed like a good candidate. And

19:17

she's got like a cute little doily. I don't

19:19

know what that is, like a cover-it-light cover, very

19:21

old-fashioned. She's got a lot of books. And

19:25

she does have a dreamcatcher above her bed. And

19:27

I have my tortillas under here. What?

19:29

I have an obsession with tortillas.

19:31

Do you sleep on them? No,

19:34

they're just hidden, so nobody spills them.

19:36

Those are major tortillas. Those are like

19:38

18 inches across. What

19:40

do you think about the clothes pins? How are they

19:42

used? So she's using the

19:44

clothes pins. It looks to hold up some

19:46

kind of antenna. Oh, she

19:49

painted them white to match the wall. So

19:51

she obviously cares about decoration. It's

19:54

very clean. We do

19:56

well as monkeys. Yeah. Even though I'm way older

19:58

than you, I wouldn't be a pain. So

20:02

on the surface Jessica seemed like she'd be

20:04

a great monkey but I do wonder if

20:06

it's a good idea to commit so quickly.

20:09

No it's not because

20:11

you're only seeing what you're seeing in

20:13

that moment. You know what I'm saying?

20:15

I mean everybody acts great on the

20:18

first few dates right? Wow. You're just

20:20

feeding me these lines. Oh my gosh.

20:24

Yeah I mean clearly you want to know a little bit

20:26

more about this person's history like how

20:28

many people have they've been with in

20:30

the past and what happened with those

20:32

relationships? Since I've

20:34

been to CIW I'm on number

20:36

15 for Bonkeys. 15?

20:40

In four years? Yes. And

20:43

is it because of you? Well

20:45

I like to think not but it probably was

20:47

a little bit of me through the years. Okay

20:52

roommate number one still here.

20:54

She was really intense. It

20:57

was my first prison experience. She kept

20:59

saying that my sheep was stinky after

21:01

two days and she wanted

21:03

to wash it in the trash can for me

21:06

so that just made me really

21:08

uncomfortable. And roommate number two was

21:10

the the chip muncher. She would

21:12

eat these chips for like an

21:14

hour every night. Number three that

21:17

one accused me of having a stinky locker

21:20

after I moved in but then she came

21:22

back later like three days later and she

21:24

had found a piece of cheese and it

21:26

was her. Four.

21:30

That one was actually pretty cool. She

21:32

would get the Holy Ghost every day. She'd

21:35

start shrieking like a she-devil and I was

21:37

like oh wow this is pretty cool. I've

21:40

never seen this. She proled.

21:44

Roommate number five. She's still here. I could

21:46

tell stories but I can't. Number six. She

21:50

was very young. She was the one that blared

21:52

the rap music all day. She was way too

21:54

cool for me. But she was seven.

21:57

That was kind of like an overnight stay.

21:59

Number eight. she was

22:01

awesome. Number nine, she

22:03

was really cool but I had

22:06

this like thing I think it's called

22:08

like misophonia where you can't handle like

22:10

little noises like smacking when you eat

22:12

and so we were on COVID lockdown

22:14

and I thought I was gonna go

22:16

crazy so I moved. Ten,

22:20

she was nice, she moved out. I

22:24

guess she didn't like me anymore. Number

22:26

11, she would collect these stupid

22:28

little medicine cups and so one

22:30

day I went to flush

22:33

the toilet and I was like this

22:35

thing is overflowing. It's a Saturday morning,

22:37

everybody's asleep. Well next thing

22:39

I know our room is full of water and I

22:41

am like what is going on? I was like all

22:43

right I'm getting to the bottom of this so I

22:45

just put my hand down there and pulled

22:49

off this medicine cup. Oh my

22:51

god, I was so mad and I

22:53

spent the next two hours squeegeeing water

22:56

out of our room. What number man? Oh

22:58

hey 12, oh my god. Oh

23:00

that's the one that talked on the phone all day and we

23:03

were co-workers that didn't work out. Never

23:07

move in with co-workers that is the cardinal

23:09

rule. Thirteen,

23:11

she's still here, she was wonderful and then

23:16

my temper got the bus to me so I got kicked out

23:18

of the unit. Fourteen

23:21

was here, she was

23:23

paroled and she was wonderful.

23:26

Best spunky I've ever had. You've

23:28

mentioned temper. Quite okay, what

23:30

is this temper like? And

23:33

when does, what do you think is it clear? It's

23:36

pretty explosive but

23:38

I'm working on it. Do you know the root

23:40

problem of it? Oh

23:43

probably anger. Problem? Uh,

23:47

angry at myself. Or

23:50

getting myself here you know like kind

23:53

of throwing

23:56

away my life. Yeah

23:58

that anger sometimes. probably get

24:01

projected towards their family.

24:08

So, just imagine that Erlon was a female, both females. Okay,

24:30

so at this point we were talking to

24:32

a woman named Amber, trying to figure out

24:34

who would be a better monkey for her,

24:36

Erlon, you or me? And

24:39

we knew that Amber is way into

24:42

astrology. What's your sign? Leo.

24:45

Oh, okay, no, wait, wait, wait

24:47

a second. Okay. I'm running this motherfucker.

24:50

I'm either a cancer or Gemini, I'm June 21st. Oh,

24:52

that's cool, I stayed along with him. Okay,

24:54

so from meeting us in our signs,

24:56

who would be, who do you think would be your

24:58

better monkey? Who would you? I'm

25:00

a Leo's polarity, okay? I keep getting Leo's. I

25:02

have to actually do a clearing session on Leo's because

25:04

I keep attracting him and I do not get along

25:07

with Leo's. Leo's have to make it

25:09

all about them. They got to be a star of the show, they

25:11

need all the service, everything. They're going to be top of the chain.

25:13

That's why he got this podcast, okay? Okay,

25:15

they usually rise to the top, like Meghan Markle. But let

25:17

me tell you, I don't care what you got going, I'm

25:19

going to ignore you. Nigel?

25:22

They can't stand somebody like that. It's

25:24

not going to work. Yep, you

25:26

made this very clear in

25:28

that first episode, Fennies. Yep,

25:31

let's play a little clip. So,

25:37

what's your biggest fear about finding

25:39

a celly? I

25:41

have several fears, but one of them

25:44

is someone that talks too much, that's

25:46

always talking. Every time you

25:48

look around, he's talking, talking, talking through the

25:50

TV shows, talking when you walk in, talking

25:53

when you get up in the morning. I

25:55

hate that shit. It

26:00

bugged you back then and it bugs you now. I

26:03

mean, talking too much, it's a pet

26:05

peeve for both of us. What's your pet peeve?

26:09

She talk too fast. He does not like

26:11

people who talk a lot. We'll get along, but it'll

26:13

be like, she'll probably be

26:15

talking and I'll be listening to the TV show.

26:17

And he'll, yeah, zone out. I'll zone out and

26:19

I'll be like, yes, you'll hit it every now

26:21

and again. You

26:24

really think you could drown that out with a TV? You

26:26

could try, but they'll keep talking and they'll

26:28

keep talking. They might get louder and louder.

26:32

Oh, that would drive me crazy. Okay,

26:34

so we've got more stories

26:37

about challenging bunkies

26:40

after the break. So, Mr.

26:59

Gervis, are we? Yeah, I

27:01

did. But she

27:03

and I didn't talk. This

27:07

is Gladys. We met her in

27:09

a previous episode, Erlon, the one we did about

27:11

being a senior in prison at C.I.W. Yep,

27:14

I remember Gladys. We met her in the library. Did

27:17

y'all not talk because of disagreements or did y'all

27:19

not talk because of like- He was young and

27:22

yeah, we didn't agree like on

27:24

anything. Does it become hostile?

27:27

Not for me. For her,

27:30

it probably did. Like she would do stuff,

27:32

like wait for me to be asleep and

27:34

start crunching noodles. Bang

27:37

her cup on the bunk above me. Go

27:40

flush the toilet. You know when

27:42

you were a kid and you did something wrong

27:44

and sometimes you would do it just to aggravate

27:46

your parents. That's what it was.

27:49

But I met your mother. When

27:51

you're older in prison, do you think that

27:53

younger people are trying to make

27:55

you a mother figure or an auntie? Some of

27:58

them, yeah. Some of them are. Like

28:00

I've had them come and tell me oh, could

28:03

you be my no, you know, I already

28:05

have family And you're very I don't come

28:07

to prison to have family. Yeah No

28:10

No, I mean I could be very funny with you But

28:13

when I family family times are very

28:15

very dear to me and not everybody

28:17

even some of my family's not my

28:19

family So

28:28

There was this one lady she's gone now I guess I

28:31

could talk about her This here

28:33

is Shannon. So the story she's

28:35

telling us now is about this

28:37

one notorious monkey Someone we

28:39

actually heard about from several people at ciw

28:41

a monkey named

28:44

money And

28:46

She didn't let her roommates come in

28:48

the room with their shoes on they

28:51

were not allowed to use The

28:53

bathroom in the room or the sink They

28:57

had to brush their teeth out in the day

28:59

room bathroom If they came in

29:01

they had to again, they had to take

29:03

off their shoes and be very very quiet They couldn't stay

29:05

in the room. They even had to pay her for the

29:07

locker They're a signed

29:09

locker. Yeah Could she go

29:11

to the bathroom in there? Oh, yeah, it was her it was

29:14

her room So she could do whatever

29:16

she wanted in there I

29:28

had a rumor. I didn't used to like that. She was super

29:30

worried about cleaning, but she made me really really dislike her Here's

29:33

amber again She has a

29:35

somewhat creative way of getting back at

29:37

a bad monkey and erlon I

29:40

got to tell you I actually did this

29:42

exact thing with a bad roommate one time

29:45

and if he's listening He's gonna know now You

29:48

got some dirty secrets coming out of your

29:50

knives. Mm-hmm I'd

29:52

bring sugar sprinkling along the floor dirt sprinkling on the

29:54

floor Like when people are bullies, I would

29:56

do a little passive aggressive crap like that. Did you ever

29:58

find out you were doing? No. This

30:10

girl comes knocking at my door and

30:12

says hi, I'm your new silly. This

30:16

is Denise. She had her own story

30:18

to tell us about a bad monkey.

30:21

Well, she's a boy aggressive and

30:23

I'm a menopausal woman. So this

30:25

for sure is not going to

30:27

work out. But I

30:29

remember one day I came in and I was

30:32

all excited. My mom told me off the watch.

30:34

She said, you know Denise, I was doing some

30:36

research and we have a little bit of Jewish

30:38

blood in us. From Damascus

30:41

or something. I had told

30:43

my bunkie about that. Anyway,

30:45

I was cleaning and when I was

30:47

cleaning on top of the lockers, I saw swastika

30:50

signs. She engraved swastika signs

30:52

up there after I told her that I

30:54

had some Jewish blood in me. When

30:57

you saw those swastikas, what was

30:59

your first reaction? Were you like

31:01

incredulous? I was

31:04

frightened. I

31:06

was frightened. I mean, she's gonna slash me

31:08

while I'm sleeping. I mean, what's

31:10

gonna go on? I

31:14

try to be cordial and

31:17

you know, if they have any needs, they help them. But

31:22

at the same time throughout all

31:24

of these years, I think I've only

31:26

had three bunkies that have not stolen

31:28

from me. How

31:30

many selfies do you think you've had in the

31:32

time you've been inside? Oh dear God, I don't

31:34

know. It doesn't

31:36

sometimes. And

31:39

what about now? Right now, I have

31:43

no bunkies. Is that the best

31:45

way to live? That is absolutely the best

31:47

way to live. Everyone

31:52

wants to be solo. Hell

31:54

yeah. But sooner or later, someone

31:56

will be assigned to that sale. So

31:58

we asked Denise, When she gets

32:01

a new bunkie, how would she welcome them to

32:03

her room? Hi,

32:05

my name is Denise. Here's your locker. I

32:07

have a hammock underneath the bed to where

32:10

you can put your shoes. Ask

32:12

her, do she have rules on her wall? Yeah,

32:15

do you have rules printed on the wall

32:17

that I should pay attention to? No, there's

32:19

just some easy rules. Just pick up after

32:21

yourself, do what you have to do, go

32:24

where you have to go, and don't bring

32:26

the cops in. Simple, Simon. Any rules about

32:28

the windows? Like, can they be

32:30

open or closed? The

32:33

windows are open. Okay. The

32:35

windows are open. Always? No,

32:38

not when it gets super cold, then I'll close them. So

32:40

we can negotiate? No,

32:43

no, I'm going to be ruler of

32:45

the windows. Erlon,

32:47

that's a big no for me.

32:49

She sounded like a sail captain. And I

32:51

know that wouldn't work for either of us.

32:53

Hell no. Can

33:02

I give a shout out to the Birdman of San Quentin,

33:04

one of your podcasts? This

33:07

story has nothing to do with bunkies, Nigel. It's

33:10

a classic non sequitur, right? So

33:13

somebody gives me the baby pigeon, and I was like, this is a really big

33:15

bird for me to take care of, right? CIW got some fast talkers. This is

33:18

Krista. But

33:21

it's okay, I'm going to take care of it. I didn't

33:23

do Pierre, but he was the dumbest bird I've raised. So

33:26

I changed his name to Bubba, okay? The poor

33:28

bird. I had that bird, oh my God, with

33:30

his hand feeding him. I had his little spot under

33:32

my bed. He had his little nest under there, and I'd

33:34

be putting my makeup on. And I'd be like, come on,

33:36

come on, Bubba, come on, come on. I'm going to

33:39

get my toes, get my toes. I'm going to be poking at my toes. We

33:41

put him up on the upper butt, and his little stuffed chicken

33:44

toy, his finger popping. And we're like, Bubba, Bubba's

33:46

up the wall. She's not afraid. You're going to be

33:48

able to pull him from the hot tub. And all

33:50

the other birds that are attacking us

33:52

all. But our T-Bubs died. He

33:54

died of a broken heart without me. I just wanted to give

33:57

a shout out to the bird man. I understand the love of

33:59

a pigeon. I

34:09

don't think I'd want to bunk with any of these people. Me

34:12

either, I understand. But

34:15

there was this one woman we kept

34:17

hearing about and everyone seemed to agree

34:20

that she was absolutely the best

34:22

monkey. Yep, they were like, if

34:24

you have to have one monkey in

34:26

here, it's Barbara. Barbara

34:28

is a golden girl. Before she came to

34:30

prison, she was a nurse. She

34:33

got a W number, meaning she's been here for a long

34:35

time. Everybody else got two digits. Can

34:37

you tell us who you are, how long

34:39

you've been incarcerated? I have been incarcerated

34:42

for 26 years. And

34:44

what is your sentence? My sentence is

34:46

life without parole. And you're

34:49

current celly now? Barbara's

34:51

celly is Amber. What?

34:54

Amber? Yep,

34:56

Amber. Who is not a fan

34:58

of Leo's and talks a lot.

35:01

Why are you and Barbara so compatible? We've

35:03

known each other 17 years. And we're

35:05

both really calm. I'm an Aquarius and she

35:07

is a tourist. I

35:10

always ask people when I first meet them

35:12

what's their sign. My sign, I'm an Aquarius,

35:14

I'm February 18th right on the Pisces cusp.

35:16

So I'm very kickback, I'm very mellow. Tourists

35:18

are very agreeable too. No difference that she's

35:20

very calm and I have ADHD. Does

35:23

she talk a lot? We

35:25

talk, but she doesn't talk like I talk, no. I

35:27

never, I never do that. Amber

35:30

talks a lot. Yeah, it's the ADHD. But

35:33

hey, you know I really sit back

35:35

and think on people's strengths. She's gonna

35:37

be a comedian and I'm gonna be the manager. I

35:44

mean she's delightful, but she does talk a

35:46

lot. So what do you do when ADHD? I

35:49

know. I just do the hand like quiet,

35:52

bring the volume down. She

35:54

goes bring it down, bring it down. My

35:57

secret weapon is coffee with a lot of...

36:00

sugar in it then I'll give her

36:02

a honey bun sugar her off the game and she

36:04

crashed. Oh

36:06

you just gave her the game. No she knows. Oh

36:09

she knows. She's not even a honey

36:11

bun come. Look, can you do that

36:13

because you're a nurse? Probably so. Because

36:15

that's the same effect as giving... Melatonin?

36:18

No. No. No giving someone

36:20

Adderall. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Very

36:23

smart. Yes. Do you think that you make a

36:25

good bunky? I

36:27

would not have thought because I'm

36:29

a solitude like person but

36:32

it works. Yeah. It works.

36:34

You know in my morning time when

36:36

I'm just really quiet when I wake up

36:39

and refocusing my days she don't bother me.

36:41

She's a good girl. She really is.

36:44

It's actually working. Well

36:50

my name's Cherie and I've been locked up

36:52

33 years and I've been

36:54

at the California Institution for Women

36:56

since 2009. Cherie's

36:59

bunky is named Tara. I've

37:02

been locked up for 31 years. I've been down

37:04

since 1994. How long have

37:06

you been bunky? 12 years? We met each other

37:11

at a time when we were both basically rock

37:13

bottom. I

37:15

had just transferred from the men's institution. I

37:18

came from Vacaville. I was the first

37:20

in California history to

37:22

be classified from male to

37:24

female while in

37:26

custody. When I arrived

37:29

it just trans females weren't as

37:31

accepted. I couldn't seem to

37:34

get a start here. It was very difficult

37:37

and I felt alone and I

37:39

was depressed. I

37:42

had used the world for size so I reacted

37:44

to her voice. Cherie

37:48

was sent to Ad Seg which is

37:50

administrative segregation. That's where she met Tara.

37:52

They were in separate cells so they

37:54

couldn't see each other but they started

37:56

talking through the air vents. Then

37:59

when they got out of Ad Seg and were sent

38:01

back to the housing unit, they became

38:03

bunkies. Ever

38:06

since then, our friendship has basically

38:08

blossomed. I can rely on

38:10

her and I trust her and I know she's always going

38:12

to be there no matter what. And

38:15

that matters. She's

38:18

got the biggest heart. Anybody in here. She'll

38:21

act like she doesn't, but she will. At

38:24

the end of the day, she will get up and help anybody. Even

38:27

if it's staff that needs help, she will get up and help.

38:30

She's a good person. I

38:33

think we complement each other. There's things that I'm good

38:35

at and able to do for her, and there's things

38:38

that she's good at and she's able to do for

38:40

me. What are some of those things? Well,

38:42

she can cook. Me, I'm

38:44

good with paperwork, so I handle any 602s

38:46

or anything that needs to be done and

38:49

in trying to get us up out of

38:51

here. It

38:53

makes a mean lasagna. I

38:55

can make anything pretty much. And that's my favorite thing

38:57

to do, is cook, clean, all that stuff, laundry. Why

39:00

are those your favorite things? I don't know. I

39:02

grew up doing that. I grew up doing it

39:04

for my family. And I don't

39:06

have to worry about it, so

39:08

it's pretty much on automatic for me and that

39:10

makes me happy. And

39:13

if you have one pet peeve about her...

39:16

Oh, God. I'd have

39:18

to say, always waiting for me

39:20

to come home, I

39:22

will not get down and feed herself. She'll wait hours until

39:24

I get home. Can you get me something to

39:26

eat? I

39:29

mean, I'm programmed. I'm

39:31

institutionalized. And

39:33

there's so much food in the house to eat, you

39:36

can't get down and cook. It's okay. Well,

39:38

I do it when it's going to be taken care of for me.

39:42

Pet peeve, she has to have

39:44

the last word. You

39:46

can try to put in the last word, but at the end

39:48

of the day, she is going to have the last word. And

39:51

I'm like, people have lived together a long time. Cherie

39:55

might be getting out soon. And I was

39:58

really wondering if Taro was worried about it. I

40:00

mean, she's going to be left alone in there. What

40:04

will it be like for one of you if the

40:07

other leads first? Awesome. Really,

40:09

you won't be lonely? Well, I'm still going to be there for her. Yeah.

40:12

You know, I'll be able to do more

40:14

for her out there than I'm able to

40:16

do in here. In here, well,

40:19

there's only so much you can do. Your hands are

40:21

basically tied. But when I get

40:23

out there, I can fight for her freedom. And

40:25

you won't be lonely, though? Well, you

40:27

know, I'm going to miss her. You know, it's going to be

40:29

hard. I'm used to having her there. And

40:32

so it's going to take some getting

40:34

used to. Does

40:36

it worry either of you? No, not at all.

40:40

Not at all. Well, that's her. Yeah, I'm

40:42

worried about it. You know, I don't want to

40:44

leave her here. And that's a concern of mine.

40:46

But I know that she's

40:49

at a point in her life where she's

40:51

stable enough and sober enough. So I'm confident

40:53

that when I leave her, it's

40:55

only a matter of time before she follows me out of

40:58

here. Back then, when I

41:00

first met her, my rock bottom was I was on drugs. So

41:02

and because of her, I'm not on it today. I've

41:06

been clinging off heroin for almost six years now. But

41:09

today, I don't even want nothing. So

41:11

I'm good. But I think that's what she's

41:13

worried about. But drugs will never be a part of my life

41:15

again. What would the process

41:17

be like of trying to find another monkey? Because

41:20

I'm not worried about it. I mean, if I get a

41:22

monkey, I get a monkey. To me, it's not even my

41:24

room. It's the state room. So

41:26

as long as I get a good monkey, that's all that matters.

41:32

As we've been listening to these people

41:34

at CIW talk about what makes a good monkey

41:36

and the kind of relationships that

41:39

are formed in women's prison cells, it's

41:41

been reminding me of our first Ear Hustle

41:43

episode and how you talked about your celly

41:46

way back then. A guy named

41:48

Black. I mean, Black's a good

41:50

dude, you know, and he was the ideal celly.

41:53

I think it's more significant than

41:55

he was a good dude, Erlon. So

41:57

let's play a little clip from that

41:59

episode. If

42:02

I was to describe Mr.

42:04

Clodman over here, I would

42:06

say he's a well-disciplined

42:08

person and

42:10

a great thinker. I

42:12

know many times I always come to him and be

42:14

like, hey man, I need your help

42:16

on this. And he

42:19

got this little white board in the cell. He'll

42:22

bust out the little sharpie marker, the

42:25

little dry marker, and he'll just get the

42:27

going. He'll get to whatever

42:29

issues I'm having problems with. And the brothers are

42:31

well versed too, especially when it comes to self-help

42:33

groups and a smart

42:36

brother, man. That's what I get. Any

42:38

cool, hella cool. I mean,

42:40

shit, I don't know what I'm

42:42

going to do when he leaves. To

42:45

find a brother of your caliber, man, it's going

42:47

to be hard. I already know that.

42:52

It seems to me, Erlon, what you

42:54

and Black had was like, I don't

42:56

know, you somehow found a really nice

42:58

way to be bunkies. It wasn't

43:00

like you were best friends, but you found

43:02

a way to support each other, see the

43:05

best in each other, and also let each

43:07

of you live your own lives. And

43:09

I think that's what you want to find in a bunkie or a

43:11

cell. Yeah, I mean, it's a

43:14

specific kind of relationship. I don't know

43:16

if that exists outside of prison. That

43:18

cell is so small. You pretty

43:21

much go into the bathroom in front

43:23

of each other. Plus, you've got these

43:25

lockdowns where you can't leave the cell

43:27

sometime for days. Days, weeks, and sometimes

43:30

months, right? Yeah, or

43:32

even years. True that. So,

43:34

do you think we'd be good cellies? If

43:36

I were a dude, but I was still just

43:38

like me, do you think we'd be compatible? I

43:41

don't think we'd be compatible. I

43:43

know your ways. I think you know my ways.

43:47

I can count on you. I

43:52

probably couldn't count on your

43:54

cooking as much, but because you like

43:56

to eat stuff that I don't. I

44:00

wouldn't have all those options in prison. But

44:04

everything else, I appreciate your loyalty.

44:08

I wouldn't have to worry about you stealing

44:10

shit or doing some file

44:12

because you're a stand-up person.

44:16

So we could definitely be some

44:19

cool bunkies. The other thing is

44:21

I think neither of us like to talk a lot. So

44:23

that's a plus. And also, I mean,

44:25

I trust you, I trust your

44:27

judgment, and I feel safe with you. Oh,

44:30

that's what's up. I think that's a good start, see? Yeah,

44:37

no doubt. One hundred, Erlon. One

44:39

hundred. Yep. Think we got another hundred

44:42

in us? Please. You

44:44

know we do. Just

44:47

now scratching the surface, huh? Exactly.

44:50

Ear Hustle is produced by me. Erlon

44:52

Woods, Nigel Korr, Amy Standin,

44:55

Nees Wallace, and Rasan New

44:57

York Thomas. Shubnam Sigmund

44:59

is the managing producer. The

45:02

producing team inside San Quentin includes

45:04

Steve Brooks, Dorel Sadiq

45:06

Davis, Tony Dutterinidad, and

45:09

Tom Nguyen. The inside managing producer

45:11

is Tony Tafoya. This

45:14

episode was sound design and

45:16

engineered by me, Erlon Woods,

45:18

and includes music from Antoine

45:21

Williams, David Jossi, Dorel Sadiq

45:23

Davis, Rasheed Zinneman, Fernando Arruda,

45:25

and myself. Thanks to

45:27

Acting Warden Smith and Lieutenant Barry of

45:29

San Quentin, and Acting Warden Hill at

45:31

the California Institution for Women for their

45:34

support of the show. Thanks also

45:36

to this guy here. Well,

45:38

I'm Lieutenant William Newborn. Happy

45:40

to be a part of the Ear Hustle podcast group

45:42

as you guys come through C.I.W. Proud

45:45

thing to be part of your 100th episode,

45:47

What an Accomplishment. Congratulations and

45:49

good luck. See you guys around 200

45:51

if I'm not retiring by then. And

45:53

I approve this 100th

45:56

episode. Congratulations. This

46:00

episode was made possible by the Just

46:02

Trust, working to amplify the voices,

46:04

vision, and power of communities

46:06

that are transforming the justice system. For

46:08

more information about this episode, check out

46:11

the show notes on Ear Hustle's website,

46:14

earhustlesq.com. You

46:16

can also find out more about

46:18

the show on Facebook, Twitter, and

46:20

Instagram at EarHustleSQ. And

46:22

if you want more Ear Hustle, subscribe to

46:25

Ear Hustle Plus. We've got bonus episodes and

46:27

live chats where we get to chop it

46:29

up with the listeners about the show. We've

46:32

been doing that for every episode and it's a lot of

46:34

fun. And this week, we've

46:36

got something really special for subscribers.

46:38

You know how this episode, our

46:40

100, was a callback to our

46:42

first episode, Sally's. Yep. So

46:45

recently, you and I sat down with our

46:47

executive producer, Bruce Wallace, turned on the

46:49

mics, and listened back to our first

46:51

episode. Honestly, Erlon, it was the

46:53

first time I'd heard it in year.

46:57

Subscribers can hear a special

46:59

version of that episode with

47:01

our commentary, our memories, celebration,

47:03

laughs, regrets, all

47:05

that shit. Yeah, it was kind of

47:07

like we were ear hustling Ear Hustle. Something like

47:10

that. If you're an Ear Hustle Plus subscriber,

47:12

it's in your feed now. If

47:14

you're not a subscriber yet, sign

47:16

up at earhustlesq.com. Flash

47:19

Plus. And while you're

47:21

at it, leave us a review on Apple

47:23

Podcasts. That's a big help to

47:25

the show and we truly appreciate it. Ear

47:29

Hustle is a proud member of

47:31

Radiotopia from PRX, a network of

47:33

independent, creator-owned, listeners-supported

47:35

podcasts. Discover

47:37

audio with vision at radiotopia.fm. At

47:40

Erlon, we are taking a break because

47:43

this is the final episode of

47:45

season 12. After that live

47:47

tour, I'm ready to take a vacation. Even

47:50

though, you and I know, we

47:52

got new episodes to work on. Exactly.

47:55

But after that live tour, which was amazing and

47:57

fun, I think we all need a little break.

48:00

But we will be back in

48:02

March with season 13. I'm

48:07

Nigel Poor. I'm Erlon Woods.

48:10

Thanks for listening. Well,

48:16

hey everybody, it's Governor Gavin Newsom and I

48:18

wanna add my voice to the voice of

48:20

so many others in congratulating Ear Hustle for

48:22

having reached its 100th episode, sharing

48:25

hundreds if not thousands of stories

48:27

from those behind the walls of

48:29

California's correctional facilities and breaking through

48:32

the myths and stigmas

48:34

of incarceration. Congratulations on

48:36

this remarkable achievement and thank you

48:38

to Erlon and Nigel and the

48:40

Ear Hustle crew and the staff

48:43

of CDCR for creating and supporting

48:45

this innovative podcast. Thank

48:47

you.