0:00

And so it's really

0:00

as a parent, you have to tap

0:03

into the observations of where

0:03

their strengths are and really

0:07

see them. Where are they going?

0:07

He loves history. Okay, check.

0:12

She loves volleyball, okay,

0:12

check, like what is what does

0:15

all this mean? Right? And then

0:15

try to kind of help them find

0:21

these new things. And listen, he

0:21

could have said, I hate this

0:25

podcast. It's stupid Mom, I

0:25

don't want to hear it. Right.

0:28

And I'd be like, Okay, that's a

0:28

signal to right there all

0:31

signals.

0:44

Hi, everybody,

0:44

welcome back to the podcast and

0:47

Happy April, I get to have

0:47

another one of my good friends

0:52

on the podcast today. And you'll

0:52

probably sense a theme here, I

0:57

am really drawn to people who

0:57

are super reflective, they trust

1:02

their intuition, and have taken

1:02

maybe the path less traveled in

1:07

their career journey. And, you

1:07

know, I like to think people

1:10

would say the same thing about

1:10

me, really, it's that I just

1:14

admire these people so much in

1:14

their courage to pursue

1:19

alignment with themselves. I

1:19

think it's really what we need

1:22

more of. So that's why I keep

1:22

featuring these kinds of

1:25

stories. So today, I've got my

1:25

friend join reserve, joining me.

1:29

And Joy has a storied career at

1:29

id Tech, which is one of those

1:35

companies that runs summer camps

1:35

for students. But these are like

1:39

stem summer camps. And it's a

1:39

massive company. And she helped

1:44

it grow from a startup to when

1:44

it sold, I think it was a $65

1:49

million company. So she really

1:49

knows what she's talking about

1:51

when she talks about scale and

1:51

managing large teams and things

1:55

like that. And one of the things

1:55

that I think is so interesting

1:59

about joy, is that she has a

1:59

very specific perspective on

2:04

leadership. And you'll hear

2:04

about that in the interview. And

2:08

having known her and having

2:08

worked with her son a little

2:12

bit, I can see how those

2:12

principles come into her

2:16

parenting. And you know, your

2:16

family is not a business. It's

2:20

not a corporation does not need

2:20

to be run like a corporation.

2:24

But I think there are some

2:24

principles that we can apply

2:29

from the business world into our

2:29

families. After all, there's so

2:32

much research that goes into you

2:32

know, how to be a good manager,

2:36

how to motivate people, how to

2:36

hold people accountable, etc,

2:39

etc. Why wouldn't we use some of

2:39

those lessons when we're working

2:42

with our own children? So you'll

2:42

hear in the interview, just how

2:46

Joy makes that connection? I

2:46

hope it's as inspiring to you as

2:50

it was to me. So I'll see you on

2:50

the other side. Jerry, thank you

2:53

so much for joining us today.

2:53

Really appreciate your time.

2:55

I'm so excited to

2:55

be here, Sheila, thank you for

2:58

having me.

2:59

Of course, you're

2:59

one of my favorite people to

3:01

chat with about all kinds of

3:01

things, especially since you

3:04

have a son who's going through

3:04

the college process right now.

3:07

There's so much that we can chat

3:07

about. But beyond that, we

3:11

connect in so many other

3:11

different aspects of our lives

3:14

that we're really simpatico. So

3:14

let's start by talking about

3:18

your life. Tell us what has

3:18

brought you

3:22

to where you are

3:22

today. Huh? Yeah. So since we're

3:25

talking to people about college,

3:25

I'll start there. So trying to

3:30

figure out, you know, what

3:30

college I was going to, I'm

3:33

ashamed to say I only applied to

3:33

two colleges. Yes, I got into

3:38

both. But I think of that and

3:38

compare it with today's

3:41

standards. There is no way that

3:41

I would coach my children to

3:45

only apply to two colleges now.

3:45

It is so much different. The

3:50

landscape has changed

3:50

dramatically. So I ended up

3:53

going to UC San Diego. I was

3:53

from San Diego and I thought why

3:57

leave this gorgeous city. I

3:57

double majored in communication

4:01

in theater. And then I went off

4:01

to corporate America to use that

4:05

communication major in public

4:05

relations. So I was in a big PR

4:10

firm on Wilshire Boulevard and

4:10

LA and just being there probably

4:16

a few months and I looked around

4:16

and I was like, Oh, these are

4:21

not my people. And the way I

4:21

felt that and the reason I felt

4:26

that is because I was seeing

4:26

behaviors that I didn't agree

4:30

with. I saw women scratching

4:30

other women on their way trying

4:35

to climb that ladder. I saw my

4:35

boss who had been there for

4:40

many, many years. She was a

4:40

pioneer. She was one of the few

4:42

women in PR when she joined at

4:42

the time and really carving out

4:47

a place for women and PR, but

4:47

she was on the phone with her

4:51

child. And she was saying tell

4:51

Mommy, you love me. No, I'm not

4:56

going to be home later tonight.

4:56

Just tell Mommy you loved me and

4:59

I thought that's not the way

4:59

it's supposed to go, you know,

5:03

and I was there till three

5:03

Egham, you know many nights,

5:07

dining on the company dime. And

5:07

just thinking this is not this

5:12

is not for me. And so when the

5:12

opportunity fell in my lap to

5:18

join a startup, I pretty much

5:18

jumped at the chance feeling

5:22

guilty for leaving this job that

5:22

I have no idea why, why I felt

5:26

any sense of loyalty to that

5:26

company. But I did. And I felt,

5:30

you know, oh, gosh, I'm leaving

5:30

them in a lurch. They had me

5:32

replaced in two weeks, it was

5:32

not a problem. And so I took a

5:36

chance I was the third employee

5:36

hired on at a company called it

5:39

tech. And id Tech, some of your

5:39

listeners may know is a program

5:45

for kids and teens teaching STEM

5:45

education, and we were at

5:49

universities, all over the

5:49

world, at our height. And it was

5:54

a wonderful place to be, I was

5:54

given a gift. And this is kind

5:59

of what I'm out doing now is I

5:59

want to give the same gift to

6:02

other people. When I started,

6:02

first day on the job, I was

6:08

asking my boss questions was

6:08

like, okay, so what do you have

6:11

in the way of, you know, a

6:11

manual on how to run the

6:15

programs, what are we handing to

6:15

staff so that they know how to

6:18

run our programs on a day to day

6:18

basis. And he said, that's your

6:22

first assignment. And so I and

6:22

then I was off, I was off and

6:27

running, I had so much

6:27

ownership, I had so much

6:31

autonomy, I was moving at a fast

6:31

pace toward mastery, I was

6:35

taking on more and more

6:35

responsibility. Year after year

6:38

after year, I was inviting in

6:38

people that I loved to work

6:43

with, who stayed, because we

6:43

built an award winning culture

6:47

of fun, of excitement of really

6:47

honoring people and seeing and

6:51

valuing them for what they could

6:51

bring to the company. And, and

6:57

that is what I'm trying to do

6:57

now. So I lasted there 22 years,

7:02

almost 23 years. So it was quite

7:02

a journey. And I became the CEO

7:07

there for the last eight years

7:07

of that journey.

7:10

And tell us a

7:10

little bit about what you do

7:12

now. And then I'm gonna back up

7:12

because I have so many juicy

7:16

questions for you about this journey.

7:18

Okay, great. So now

7:18

I am the founder and CEO of

7:23

leading with joy. And I'm trying

7:23

to help organizations and

7:27

executives tap into intrinsic

7:27

and extrinsic motivators of

7:33

people to really drive

7:33

engagement, drive productivity,

7:38

create higher retention, and

7:38

really create companies and

7:41

cultures where people want to

7:41

stay, and they want to work and

7:45

they want to give their best

7:45

effort. They really want that

7:48

company to succeed. So they're

7:48

in it to win it. And that's what

7:52

produces really profitable

7:52

growing companies.

7:56

Alright, so we're

7:56

gonna come back to that, because

7:59

like I said, I have so many

7:59

questions. But if we back up to

8:03

you had this first corporate job

8:03

in a PR firm, as a communication

8:07

major, I'm sure that felt like

8:07

the next logical thing for you.

8:11

And I'm sure it was a coveted

8:11

position that you got at a

8:14

really fancy company, and there

8:14

was a lot of competition for it.

8:18

I'm curious how you felt when

8:18

you realize it was not for you.

8:22

And you had put in all of this

8:22

effort? And, you know, one out

8:26

the position against other

8:26

people. And then you were like,

8:30

Wait, I don't I don't actually

8:30

even want this. Tell us about that.

8:34

Yeah, I think it

8:34

was over time. It doesn't happen

8:38

overnight. It's not an aha

8:38

moment. It's the grind. It's the

8:42

grind of the day to day, it's

8:42

the getting home at 2am 3am. And

8:47

saying, like, what was all this

8:47

for? Again, you know, this, I

8:51

think it was a $30,000 paycheck

8:51

at the time. And I'll just give

8:56

you the quintessential picture.

8:56

So picture me driving home on

9:00

Laurel Canyon Boulevard back to

9:00

the valley. And I'm listening to

9:05

Jill Sobule song. And I want to

9:05

get better. I don't want to turn

9:09

cruel. I know want to get old

9:09

before I have to write. And so

9:14

that was my mantra. And I was

9:14

like So something was amiss,

9:18

because I was screaming that

9:18

song at the top of my lungs. And

9:22

I knew that in my heart of

9:22

hearts, like change needed to

9:26

come. And I got lucky. I got

9:26

lucky in that. You know, there

9:31

was a knock on my door and it

9:31

happened to be my boss who I

9:35

didn't know I invited him in. We

9:35

SAT down. We talked I had a lot

9:40

of parallel experiences that

9:40

dovetailed into the company that

9:44

he was trying to build. But you

9:44

know, I think you have to listen

9:49

to that intuitive voice and I

9:49

call it the little whispers. So

9:53

if you're getting those little

9:53

whispers repeatedly, it's a sign

9:58

it's a sign that they're

9:58

something else for you.

10:02

Oh, wow, I just

10:02

got chills when you said that. I

10:06

had the little whispers, and I

10:06

finally listened to them at some

10:09

point in my life too. Now, you

10:09

know, you were in your early

10:13

20s, when you started listening

10:13

to those little whispers and

10:16

realizing you were kind of out

10:16

of alignment with yourself with

10:19

your favorite song. And I think

10:19

most people will say, okay, when

10:24

you're in your 20s, that inner

10:24

voice is probably one that you

10:28

could start listening to. But

10:28

before that, what are these kids

10:32

know? Right? Oh, you just want

10:32

to do something that sounds

10:38

cool. You don't know what the

10:38

real world is like. So now that

10:41

you, you know, have at least one

10:41

kid who is approaching College?

10:46

How do you explain this concept

10:46

of the little whispers to him?

10:49

And how seriously? Are you able

10:49

to take that inner voice of his

10:54

as his parent?

10:55

Mm hmm. It's so

10:55

much observation. And I feel as

10:59

though correct me if I'm wrong

10:59

parents, but I feel as though we

11:04

see them before they see

11:04

themselves. And so you know,

11:08

it's all those little things

11:08

from childhood that you realize,

11:11

oh, wow, my son's really social.

11:11

Oh, wow. My daughter's really

11:16

gifted at art, you know, and you

11:16

see these little things and you

11:20

go, so maybe a career like this.

11:20

And I remember, specifically

11:25

with my son, knowing that he was

11:25

so intellectual, he loved to

11:29

talk for hours to grownups about

11:29

various things. I was like, You

11:33

should listen to this podcast,

11:33

what's a podcast? You should

11:37

listen to Freakonomics, right.

11:37

And that was the thing that got

11:41

him started in this area. And

11:41

now he wants to study economics.

11:46

And I'm not going to take credit

11:46

for that, I'm gonna say that

11:49

he's this unique gift of a

11:49

person. And so it's really, as a

11:54

parent, you have to tap into the

11:54

observations of where their

11:58

strengths are, and really see

11:58

them. Where are they going? He

12:03

loves history, okay, check. She

12:03

loves volleyball, okay, check,

12:07

like what is what does all this

12:07

mean? Right? And, and then try

12:11

to kind of help them find these

12:11

new things. And listen, he could

12:17

have said, I hate this podcast,

12:17

it's stupid Mom, I don't want to

12:20

hear it. Right. And I'd be like,

12:20

Okay, that's a signal to right

12:24

there all signals. When I do

12:24

talk to them about the

12:29

intuition. Now, my daughter is

12:29

so much more open to intuition

12:33

and whispers. I mean, we pulled

12:33

her tarot cards last night. So

12:38

we could she's 14, we were

12:38

tapping into her subconscious. I

12:42

was like, these are not

12:42

predictors of the future.

12:44

They're reflections of your

12:44

subconscious. But you know, both

12:48

of them. I think it's about

12:48

guiding in the way that they

12:52

want to be led.

12:53

So that takes me

12:53

forward to what you do. Now, as

12:57

a leadership coach. It involves

12:57

a lot of observation, gentle

13:01

suggestions, maybe offers that

13:01

you have no, on the receiving

13:06

end, they have no obligation to

13:06

take. But you're doing such a

13:10

good job of observing, that is

13:10

probably exactly what they need,

13:15

if they're open to it in the

13:15

moment. So talk to us about that

13:19

connection there between

13:19

parenting as a coach, really

13:23

from the position of a coach,

13:23

and what you do now professionally.

13:28

Yeah, so I actually

13:28

have coined a phrase, it's

13:31

called partner leadership. And

13:31

exactly, this is a way to lead

13:35

by saying, Okay, here's these

13:35

problems and our company to

13:39

solve, right? Anybody have any

13:39

ideas, thoughts, opinions? I

13:43

want to hear, right, I want to

13:43

listen. When somebody gets

13:47

really passionate or excited

13:47

about something just like your

13:51

child getting excited about a

13:51

sport or something, or acting or

13:55

whatever it is. It's going

13:55

further with that. It's saying,

13:59

Okay, I see that. That's great.

13:59

Do you want to take this on?

14:04

Would you like to lead this

14:04

effort, this project? Would you

14:08

like to spearhead it, right? And

14:08

so once they do that, though, it

14:12

is their choice. And this is

14:12

where it differs from

14:15

traditional delegation of,

14:15

here's this task, I'm going to

14:19

give it to you, and I assign it

14:19

to right, there's no choice in

14:24

that. It's up to them whether or

14:24

not they take it on, and they

14:28

move forward with it, if they

14:28

choose to take it on. The second

14:32

part is you really want to

14:32

express your belief in them.

14:36

It's, I believe, you can do

14:36

this, I know you can do this.

14:40

I've seen you do X, Y and Z,

14:40

you're gonna be great. Right?

14:44

And then the next part is

14:44

partnering with them. And so

14:47

that's a lot like parenting

14:47

because we are constantly

14:51

coaching, guiding and

14:51

supporting, removing obstacles

14:55

along the way. You know, give

14:55

And then feedback, and trying to

14:59

positively reinforce those

14:59

moments when they're doing

15:03

great. And the last part is

15:03

finding a way to shine a

15:06

spotlight on them, is to give

15:06

them that moment in the sun,

15:10

whatever it is, if this is at

15:10

work, it could be, hey, I want

15:14

you to present the team, what

15:14

you've just been working on

15:18

these past few months, because

15:18

you created this great thing,

15:22

and they need to know about it,

15:22

right? That moment where

15:26

everybody else can look at them

15:26

and recognize them. It's not

15:30

just you saying Good job, I love

15:30

to great work. It's the they're

15:35

getting this from other people,

15:35

which is very reinforcing,

15:39

probably more so reinforcing

15:39

than parents. More so

15:42

reinforcing than bosses is when

15:42

the peers recognize them for

15:46

those things. And so that's it.

15:46

So it's a framework that call

15:50

opportunities. So the O 's offer

15:50

ownership, the first p is prime

15:55

them, the second P is partner,

15:55

and the S is for shine a spotlight.

15:59

I love that so

15:59

much. And I see so many ways

16:02

that I need to adjust my

16:02

parenting. But I think that's so

16:05

wonderful. So now, if you don't

16:05

mind, let's talk about your

16:09

experience as a mom watching

16:09

your son. Struggle, not because

16:13

he's got any issues, but because

16:13

it's a process that everybody

16:17

struggles through struggle

16:17

through this college application

16:21

process, choosing the right

16:21

schools writing the essays,

16:24

waiting for the answers. I know

16:24

we're waiting for answers in the

16:28

next two weeks here. And it's

16:28

just like we can't possibly wait

16:32

anymore. Tell us what that

16:32

experience has been like for

16:35

you. And if you have any pearls

16:35

of wisdom to drop, as I'm sure

16:39

you do, please share.

16:41

Okay, well, first

16:41

of all, engage someone like

16:44

Sheila, much, much sooner,

16:44

right? I know you work with

16:48

students as young as freshmen to

16:48

start creating their resume and

16:52

figuring out what activities

16:52

they want to do. But I think

16:56

that, because the landscape has

16:56

changed so much here was my

17:01

approach. I said, we're not

17:01

visiting any colleges before you

17:05

apply. And because I don't want

17:05

you to get your heart set on any

17:10

one of these colleges. I want to

17:10

know which colleges you get

17:14

into. And then we will go visit

17:14

them. And then you can choose

17:18

from there. So this was a

17:18

scattershot approach for us. I

17:22

don't know if this is right or

17:22

not. But we applied to 20

17:26

colleges. And I say we because

17:26

as a parent, there was so much

17:31

hand holding through this

17:31

process of okay, when's that

17:35

deadline? What's the deadline

17:35

for that? And when do we do

17:39

this? Well, guess what, because

17:39

you have this in this going on.

17:43

These are our only, this is our

17:43

only day to get to knocked out,

17:48

you know, so we've got to do

17:48

those essays today. And we've

17:52

got to do those essays next

17:52

week. And so time management is

17:56

not my son's strong suit. And so

17:56

I really had to take an active

18:01

role, much more than I would

18:01

have liked. But But again, 20

18:05

universities, I mean, he added

18:05

up, I think it was 8000 words,

18:09

he needed to write for the

18:09

essays. I wish the common app

18:13

was like one and done. But no,

18:13

every university says, we're

18:17

going to need three specific

18:17

individual questions answered

18:21

for ours. And they're all like

18:21

that, and and there was rarely

18:26

overlap between from question to

18:26

question. So it was long and

18:30

arduous. And I would say, in

18:30

retrospect, I would have started

18:35

earlier we would have been

18:35

working on this summer of is

18:38

between junior and senior year,

18:38

trying to knock out as much or

18:43

at least getting rough drafts,

18:43

honed for every single one. We

18:47

and we probably would have done

18:47

a lot more early admissions.

18:52

Well, I had the

18:52

opportunity to meet your son

18:55

once, let's say one and a half

18:55

times. And he certainly is super

18:59

special. And I think you'll be

18:59

happy with the results that

19:03

you'll get back. Fingers

19:03

crossed. Of course, we never

19:06

know. But I guess my last

19:06

question for you is, you know,

19:10

you're about to do it all over

19:10

again. And I know your second

19:14

kid is totally different from

19:14

your first. But what would you

19:19

do differently?

19:20

I would have her

19:20

start earlier. I would you know

19:24

in terms of looking at

19:24

activities and events in her

19:30

life. I would want her to

19:30

journal about them. And so

19:35

here's the thing that I noticed,

19:35

I was like, I don't think in my

19:39

son's education or my daughters.

19:39

They had a lot of narrative

19:43

writing experience, first person

19:43

narrative writing. And so I

19:49

would have her journal, some of

19:49

these great experiences that

19:52

she's having journal on him now

19:52

so that they can be little

19:57

thoughts and things that will

19:57

you'll be able to look back on

20:00

and write about later. And just

20:00

the practice of that right

20:03

writing in first person.

20:04

Yeah, and you're

20:04

so right, you know, some schools

20:07

teach, or like some point in

20:07

their junior year, maybe after

20:10

AP exams are done, they're like,

20:10

Okay, we're gonna write your

20:14

college essay in this class. But

20:14

it's not the thing that they've

20:17

been taught through all of their

20:17

K through 12 education to write.

20:21

And yet somehow, it is one of

20:21

the most important things they

20:25

have to do to get into college,

20:25

so backwards. But I think

20:28

journaling is such a great

20:28

example of one of these

20:31

practices, that is going to be

20:31

good for your daughter, no

20:34

matter whether it leads to a

20:34

great college essay or not. You

20:38

know, we know writing and that

20:38

kind of reflective mindset that

20:41

goes along with journaling is so

20:41

valuable for personal

20:45

development, self awareness,

20:45

emotional regulation, all of

20:48

those things. So it's kind of

20:48

one of those things you should

20:51

do anyway, and the side bonuses,

20:51

you can look back at it and have

20:55

all of these potential topics

20:55

for your college essays. I think

20:59

it's great advice. Thank you for

20:59

sharing it.

21:01

Yeah. And I journal

21:01

too, for those reasons, right?

21:04

It's, it does tap into those

21:04

whispers that we were talking

21:08

about earlier, because what I'll

21:08

find is that I do sort of a

21:12

brain dump of thoughts. And the

21:12

person that appears at the last

21:16

moments on my page is the higher

21:16

self is the person that's trying

21:20

to coach and develop me into

21:20

being a better person?

21:23

Oh, that's so

21:23

beautifully said. I just got

21:26

chills again. Well, you know, I

21:26

could talk to you forever, as

21:29

you know, but let's leave it

21:29

there. If people want to learn

21:32

more about what you do, how can

21:32

they find out more?

21:35

Sure, head to

21:35

leading with joy.com. And I'm

21:38

often offering a free

21:38

performance coaching workshop. I

21:42

call it practical conversations

21:42

for busy leaders. So if you want

21:46

to know how to have some of

21:46

those tough conversations, just

21:50

tap me come to one of my

21:50

workshops, follow me on

21:54

LinkedIn. And you can get some

21:54

tips there as well.

21:57

Fantastic. I'll make sure all of that is linked in the show notes. Joy. Thank

21:59

you so much. This is a great

22:01

conversation.

22:03

Yeah, thank you,

22:03

Sheila, this was fun.

22:07

There you have it,

22:07

folks, I know that I am already

22:12

making a list of of ways that I

22:12

can be a better partner leader,

22:18

to my son, and I hope that

22:18

you're feeling similarly

22:21

inspired. Check the show notes

22:21

for how to learn more about joy.

22:26

And we'll see you next week.