0:00

Okay, what are four or

0:00

five really critical character

0:03

traits inherent in our student

0:03

body that align with the

0:07

mission, that create that

0:07

vibrancy, and those are the

0:11

things that the institutions

0:11

want to point out when a student

0:14

applies for admission and then

0:14

seek that and evaluate.

0:33

Hello and welcome

0:33

back to the podcast, everybody.

0:37

It's June. My goodness, the

0:37

school year is either about to

0:41

be over or is already over for

0:41

your child, and here we are

0:45

looking at summer. Hope it's

0:45

going to be a good one. If

0:48

you've been following me on

0:48

LinkedIn or listening to this

0:52

podcast regularly, you know I'm

0:52

kind of obsessed with the idea

0:56

of character in college

0:56

admissions as a really key

1:00

factor to success, but also your

1:00

kids development. So today, I am

1:08

super excited to welcome David

1:08

Hawkins and Tom Bear to the

1:13

podcast to talk about character.

1:13

David is from an organization

1:17

called NACAC, which represents

1:17

the college admissions industry

1:22

in general, and Tom has a long

1:22

history in admissions and is now

1:27

involved with the character

1:27

initiative, trying to bring

1:31

character to the forefront of

1:31

our discussions in college

1:34

admissions. Let's jump right

1:34

into the interview Tom and

1:39

David. Thank you so much for

1:39

joining me today.

1:41

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

1:43

Yes, thank you for the

1:43

offer. We appreciate having the

1:46

time with you.

1:47

Of course, and I

1:47

am so excited to dive into

1:50

character initiative and what

1:50

NACAC does, and what can we take

1:53

away from all this? But let's

1:53

start with hearing a little bit

1:56

more about who each of you are

1:56

and what you do.

1:59

Okay, so I'm Tom Bear.

1:59

I'm the Vice President for

2:02

Enrollment Management at Rose

2:02

Holman Institute of Technology.

2:05

I'm going on my fifth year here

2:05

at Rose. Prior to this, worked

2:10

at University of Notre Dame,

2:10

University of Evansville, but

2:12

have been working in college

2:12

enrollment since 1989

2:16

And I'm David

2:16

Hawkins, chief education and

2:18

policy officer with the National

2:18

Association for College

2:22

Admission Counseling, or NACAC,

2:22

as we call ourselves. I have

2:25

been with NACAC for 24 years,

2:25

and have been maybe the luckiest

2:29

parent in America being able to

2:29

work with school counselors,

2:33

college advisors and college

2:33

admissions officers as my own

2:36

children grew up and navigated

2:36

the path to college. So glad to

2:40

be here. Thank you for the opportunity.

2:42

Yeah, let's stay with you for a little bit. David, tell us a little bit more

2:44

about what NACAC mission is, and

2:49

then we can move into the

2:49

character initiative that has

2:51

started over there the last couple years.

2:54

Sure. Well, you

2:54

know, NACAC mission is to

2:56

empower our members who are, as

2:56

I said, school counselors,

3:00

college advisors and college

3:00

admissions officers, through

3:03

education community and

3:03

advocacy. So in that way, we are

3:07

a very typical association that

3:07

tries to advance the interests

3:11

and the careers of our of our

3:11

members. But what makes NAACP a

3:15

little different from a lot of

3:15

other organizations is that we

3:18

represent a process as much as

3:18

we represent people, we

3:22

represent the transition to

3:22

college and we were founded way

3:25

back in 1937 to help form a set

3:25

of standards around which

3:29

admission offices and counseling

3:29

offices would do their work so

3:33

that students remained in sort

3:33

of the center of our interests.

3:36

Because, as we all know,

3:36

institutional school other

3:39

interests can pull us in many

3:39

different directions, but we

3:42

want to make sure that we're

3:42

centered on the student. So

3:45

we're very much an organization

3:45

dedicated to helping students

3:48

and their families make the

3:48

transition to college through

3:51

the expertise and experience of

3:51

our members.

3:56

And I know one of

3:56

the first ways that I interacted

4:00

with NACAC was through the

4:00

statement of principles of good

4:04

practice, which doesn't exist in

4:04

the form that I was introduced

4:09

to it. But tell us a little bit

4:09

about about the standards.

4:12

Sure, what are

4:12

now best practices used to be an

4:16

enforceable document of ethical

4:16

and and other sort of standards

4:20

that we use to kind of give the

4:20

admissions process a more

4:25

uniform format and presentation

4:25

so that students and families

4:31

wouldn't have to try to memorize

4:31

1000s of different dates and

4:37

deadlines and policies and

4:37

procedures our code of ethics as

4:41

it used to be referred to,

4:41

really emerged out of a desire

4:44

on the part of colleges and

4:44

universities to standardize

4:47

things a little bit and to make

4:47

sure that everybody was playing

4:50

on the level, so that students,

4:50

again, weren't lost in the

4:52

shuffle. So one of our better

4:52

known standards now best

4:57

practices, is the May 1 national

4:57

response. Month date students

5:01

generally are given until May 1

5:01

to compare their offers, to look

5:06

at their financial aid

5:06

notifications, to maybe visit

5:09

the campuses or talk to the to

5:09

the admissions officers at

5:12

universities where they've been

5:12

accepted. And that really,

5:15

fundamentally, is sort of a

5:15

consumer protection standard

5:18

that we want students and their

5:18

families to have sufficient time

5:22

after they're notified that

5:22

they've been admitted, or, I

5:24

should say that the student has

5:24

been admitted, the families are

5:27

not necessarily admitted, though

5:27

we love our families too. Want

5:31

to make that clear, but that

5:31

they have sufficient time to

5:34

make informed enrollment

5:34

decisions. And we also, in our

5:38

best practices, have

5:38

standardized terms like, what

5:40

does early decision mean? What

5:40

does early action mean? What are

5:44

some standards around

5:44

communicating with students

5:47

about the wait list? So there

5:47

are things like that that we've

5:50

really tried to develop to help

5:50

students go through maybe a more

5:53

uniform process than maybe it

5:53

would have been without this set

5:57

of standards. Again, in which

5:57

case you'd have to research and

5:59

know policies and terms that are

5:59

in use by 1000s of different

6:03

colleges across the country.

6:06

Right, and in my

6:06

side of this process, it also

6:11

really helps separate, I would

6:11

think, the ethical actors from,

6:16

let's say, less ethical actors

6:16

advising Parents and students.

6:20

We've always found it really

6:20

helpful in terms of evaluating

6:24

people for hire, in encouraging

6:24

certain types of behaviors. You

6:29

know, training people on, how do

6:29

you build a good college list?

6:32

How do you talk about financial

6:32

aid? And, you know, what are the

6:35

things that you can do, should

6:35

do in this process, and what

6:39

really shouldn't you be doing?

6:39

So I've always found that

6:41

extremely valuable. So I invited

6:41

you both to talk today about

6:45

character in the admissions

6:45

process, and the reason this has

6:49

been on my radar. I mean, it's

6:49

been on my radar for a long

6:52

time, because I have long been

6:52

of the belief that character,

6:55

and you might call it values, is

6:55

central to not only the process

7:00

of college admissions and

7:00

selecting where you're going to

7:03

go and thinking about the

7:03

stories that you're going to

7:05

tell in your application, but

7:05

also really essential to the

7:08

process of a young person

7:08

growing up and being ready to

7:12

take the first steps into their

7:12

adulthood, which usually

7:15

coincides with them leaving home

7:15

and going off to college. So,

7:18

you know, defining your own set

7:18

of personal values, thinking

7:22

about what kind of person you

7:22

want to be, making sure that you

7:26

show up as that person in your

7:26

daily life is, I think, really,

7:30

really important. So I was

7:30

really excited to see that in

7:33

Knack acts, annual report on the

7:33

factors that matter in college

7:38

admissions, positive character

7:38

traits started showing up, I

7:41

think a year or two ago at the

7:41

top of this list. So maybe you

7:45

give us a little bit of background on the factors report, and then talk to us

7:47

about where character is fitting

7:50

in.

7:51

Sure, for many

7:51

years, NACAC has collected

7:54

survey data from our college

7:54

members about what they consider

7:58

to be most important in the

7:58

admissions process. And this

8:02

data is collected by other

8:02

entities as well. The US News

8:05

World Report rankings collects

8:05

the data like this. Even the US

8:08

Department of Education collects

8:08

it. But I think NACAC is

8:11

probably the most granular of

8:11

all of them, and so for many

8:15

years, our factors table, as we

8:15

call it, in the office at NACAC

8:19

looked pretty consistent. You

8:19

know, you had grades, high

8:23

school grades, clearly, the what

8:23

you do in four years of school

8:26

is the most important thing that

8:26

most colleges are going to

8:29

consider. And there's some

8:29

things about your grades, you

8:32

know, your strength of

8:32

curriculum, some nuances that

8:35

that colleges may end up looking

8:35

at or included in that then you

8:39

go down used traditionally or

8:39

for a long time, standardized

8:42

tests was sort of right after

8:42

the so the SAT and ACT came in

8:46

after grades, and then you went

8:46

down a list of of what I would

8:50

probably call the tip factor. So

8:50

those were the top factors, the

8:53

tip factors. Then you got into

8:53

things like counselor

8:56

recommendations and essays and

8:56

writing samples and things like

9:00

that, extracurricular

9:00

activities. And then as you move

9:03

down the list, you saw things

9:03

like AP tests, which were, you

9:07

know, only considered at a very

9:07

few colleges, and some of the

9:10

other factors that the maybe

9:10

work experience might come in

9:13

relatively low, although

9:13

sometimes that's same as

9:16

extracurricular. But about five

9:16

years ago, the character

9:20

collaborative approached us and

9:20

said, you know, it would be

9:23

interesting, or wouldn't it be

9:23

interesting to see where

9:25

character lands on that list?

9:25

And in my experience, as we

9:29

added factors over the years,

9:29

they tended to come in around

9:32

the bottom of the table, right?

9:32

That, in other words, we didn't

9:34

feel like we discovered anything

9:34

new under the sun. Well, when

9:38

the first year that we asked

9:38

about character. How important

9:42

is character and admission? It

9:42

came right in under the academic

9:48

factors. I think something like

9:48

26% of colleges said it was of

9:52

considerable importance, and

9:52

that was the highest level of

9:54

four. But it came in, I think

9:54

either fourth or fifth, if

9:58

memory serves, right around

9:58

like. The essay and the council

10:01

recommendations. So clearly

10:01

something that almost all

10:05

colleges are factoring in at

10:05

some level, some more than more

10:08

so than others. But again, in my

10:08

24 years of working with this

10:12

data, that was probably the one

10:12

factor that shot to the top in a

10:17

more immediate fashion than any

10:17

I'd ever seen. So so clearly

10:20

something that's on College's minds.

10:22

Yeah, and I'm so

10:22

glad you decided to ask about

10:25

it, so maybe we switched to Tom

10:25

now tell us about the character

10:29

collaborative and how you got

10:29

involved, and sort of what's

10:32

become of it, and what's the aim of it.

10:34

Sure. I think you

10:34

know, really, when you get back

10:36

to the basics of this, one of

10:36

the things that David Holmes and

10:39

Bob Massa talked about, and they

10:39

were the originators who started

10:42

the character collaborative

10:42

often mentioned character

10:45

matters. And I think that's, you

10:45

know, kind of been the mantra as

10:49

we've moved forward for many

10:49

years. And I think nowadays,

10:53

more than any, any of us would

10:53

probably repeat that slogan,

10:57

that character does matter. I

10:57

was able to get involved with it

11:01

when I was working at the

11:01

University of Notre Dame. And

11:04

Notre Dame is very much a

11:04

mission driven institution,

11:06

being a Catholic school, and so

11:06

much of our emphasis at that

11:10

time was to take the individual

11:10

talents and gifts and put those

11:14

in contribution to serve other

11:14

individuals. So thinking about

11:19

when Notre Dame would build its

11:19

first year class. We would

11:23

receive multiple applications of

11:23

students who were well prepared

11:26

academically to be successful.

11:26

But the whole concept behind the

11:31

institution being so mission

11:31

focused is to have a student

11:35

body that really contributes and

11:35

serves that mission. So trying

11:39

to find those students who would

11:39

fit into and serve and forward

11:44

the mission of the institution.

11:44

Taking those gifts and talents

11:47

and motivations to put into

11:47

service to others, to improve

11:50

the life around them, was

11:50

critically important to us. So

11:54

we knew that those character

11:54

traits that aligned with that

11:58

desperately needed. But how do

11:58

you define those and again, you

12:02

can do things like reading the

12:02

essays, you can look at the

12:04

recommendations, you can see the

12:04

experiences. And you have to

12:07

think, okay, what are the

12:07

important character traits that

12:10

match that mission? And then,

12:10

how do you use all those points

12:13

of reference to triangulate, to

12:13

describe a student, to say,

12:17

Okay, this is the individual

12:17

that fits the student body, the

12:20

community, that creates the

12:20

vibrancy that forwards on the

12:24

institution. So during my time

12:24

at Notre Dame, I was getting

12:27

very much involved with the

12:27

assessment work, which then gave

12:30

me that introduction to being

12:30

part of the character

12:33

collaborative. And again, having

12:33

served at such a strong, focused

12:37

mission institution, it was just

12:37

a natural alignment, as well as,

12:41

I think, professionally

12:41

invigorating, but it also opened

12:45

up a whole new door in my mind,

12:45

too, in that sense of I started

12:48

working in college admissions

12:48

way back in 1989 and Sheila, I'm

12:52

so glad you started off with the

12:52

best practices, because the

12:55

first thing I was taught when I

12:55

started in college admissions is

12:58

I was an admissions counselor. I

12:58

was there to help a student find

13:01

their best fit, but when I was

13:01

watching the process unfold, I

13:05

also noticed there was a lot of

13:05

inefficiencies in college

13:08

recruitment. Students receive a

13:08

lot of emails, a lot of text, a

13:12

lot of publications, and how do

13:12

they read through all that

13:15

information to find what would

13:15

be that best fit institution?

13:20

And I really believe that this

13:20

path down character assessment,

13:24

where a student goes through

13:24

that sense of who am I as an

13:27

individual, what's important to

13:27

me? What do I want to develop?

13:29

How do I want to personally

13:29

grow, and matching that to those

13:33

institutions that are very

13:33

mission driven, that do the same

13:36

thing? How do we foster those

13:36

character traits that we believe

13:39

are important and helping

13:39

students find that alignment

13:42

between the two, serve in that

13:42

counseling as well as in, you

13:46

know, take away that

13:46

inefficiency and help a student

13:49

find that place where they can

13:49

grow as a human being, pursue

13:53

their educational pursuits,

13:53

their career pursuits, but most

13:56

important, grow and thrive. And

13:56

I think that's the key, and

13:59

that's what I've really become

13:59

so I guess, engrossed in in this

14:03

process is seeing where this

14:03

could lead us in the future. And

14:07

I think it's, it's a positive,

14:07

positive path for everybody.

14:12

Yeah, absolutely.

14:12

So this is a little

14:14

embarrassing, but I'll tell you

14:14

anyway, Harvard, because of the

14:18

the lawsuit, the Supreme Court

14:18

case gave its students and

14:22

alumni the opportunity to view

14:22

their admissions files. And you

14:27

know, I cringed when I read my

14:27

essay, but what I found was

14:32

really interesting was they had

14:32

my teacher recommendations and

14:36

my counselor recommendations in

14:36

there. The thing that I was so

14:39

drawn to was the fact that some

14:39

of these character elements are

14:44

really explicitly asked about in

14:44

those forms, right? It's for

14:49

readers who haven't seen this

14:49

form. You know, they're publicly

14:51

available. You can search it on

14:51

the common app. What does the

14:54

counselor recommendation form or

14:54

the teacher recommendation form

14:57

look like? But before they get

14:57

to the place where they can.

14:59

Write in a letter or sort of an

14:59

essay recommendation, there are

15:03

a series of checkboxes that they

15:03

have to rate the student on a

15:07

number of qualities, and some of

15:07

them are things like concern for

15:11

others, reaction to setbacks,

15:11

and other things that we might

15:16

think of falling into this

15:16

character bucket, right? And

15:21

that was back in 1997 when it

15:21

was still a paper form, and

15:25

there were only 18 schools on

15:25

the Common Application. Now we

15:29

have, I think, over 800 schools

15:29

on the Common Application. Of

15:32

course, it's all digital, but

15:32

the current form doesn't look

15:36

all that different from that

15:36

form, you know, over 20 years

15:39

ago. So I tell you this story to

15:39

ask, How are colleges assessing

15:44

character, right? There are

15:44

those few explicit places you

15:47

mentioned the essay. I think

15:47

extracurriculars probably

15:50

reflect something about a

15:50

student's character, but tell us

15:53

more about how colleges are

15:53

assessing that, and then maybe

15:57

what some of those character

15:57

traits might be.

16:01

You know, I think one of the first things that colleges are doing a good job up

16:02

front before they even assess,

16:07

they message to students what

16:07

are important character traits

16:10

that build their student

16:10

community or student body?

16:13

Swarthmore and other schools,

16:13

you mentioned Harvard, but even

16:16

a place like Rose Holman, where

16:16

I work, you know, we are a stem

16:19

institution, so we have some

16:19

very specific traits that we

16:23

look for in a student, a passion

16:23

for science, math, engineering,

16:27

and that passion aspect. Because

16:27

if you don't have that kind of

16:31

passion, you're gonna struggle

16:31

to get through chemistry and

16:35

physics and calculus, and you

16:35

know, all these different

16:38

aspects. So many institutions

16:38

right up front are already

16:42

beginning to say, this is the

16:42

kind of student that comes into

16:46

our student body and excels.

16:46

There's a Earlham College here

16:50

in Indiana. I think if you look

16:50

at their mission statement, it's

16:53

a Quaker institution. They do a

16:53

wonderful job right up front

16:56

talking about, this is the type

16:56

of student that we want to

16:59

attract into our community. So I

16:59

think that's the first thing

17:02

that starts, and I think I see

17:02

more and more schools spending

17:06

time talking about that up

17:06

front. The second part is,

17:10

everything that you mentioned

17:10

once a student does then apply,

17:13

the schools are soliciting

17:13

through questions for essays,

17:18

kind of, again, what are those character traits that they're trying to tease out in the

17:19

writing or the recommendations

17:24

and even the activities that the

17:24

students are involved with. I

17:27

think again, you have to look at

17:27

all those points and pull them

17:30

together to get an, you know, a

17:30

picture of a student. There's

17:35

multiple character traits we all

17:35

all want students who bring

17:39

good, positive character traits

17:39

to their institutions. And you

17:43

can talk about things from

17:43

leadership to empathy to service

17:47

to intellectual curiosity, these

17:47

are all things that institutions

17:52

want. There's just no doubt

17:52

about them. But the important

17:55

part that comes down to the

17:55

process is an institution to

18:00

look and say, Okay, what are

18:00

four or five really critical

18:03

character traits inherent in our

18:03

student body that align with the

18:08

mission, that create that

18:08

vibrancy? And those are the

18:12

things that the institutions

18:12

want to point out when a student

18:15

applies for admission and then

18:15

seek that and evaluate there's

18:20

not one rubric that every

18:20

institution uses, because it's

18:26

unique and nuanced to the

18:26

institution itself. But what's

18:30

critical then is once an

18:30

institution decides how to use a

18:33

rubric, its staff is well

18:33

trained and has commonality, not

18:38

that it's 100% congruence, but

18:38

at least commonality in that

18:42

assessment process. And they

18:42

have to understand that with a

18:46

diversity of staff and a

18:46

diversity of students coming to

18:49

your institution and a diversity

18:49

of experiences, we have to be

18:53

able to bend and shape, to

18:53

acknowledge those traits and

18:58

those characteristics based upon

18:58

the experience of the students,

19:01

and then I have our readers

19:01

flexible enough to be able to

19:06

kind of find that middle ground,

19:06

to find and recognize those,

19:10

those important character traits

19:10

that we want. I always tell my

19:14

staff too, I also want a little

19:14

bit of disagreement too, as they

19:17

read. I don't want everyone to,

19:17

you know, completely read in the

19:21

exact same manner. They need to

19:21

be bringing their own

19:23

experiences to the process. But

19:23

then let's take these kids to

19:27

committee and say, Okay, let's

19:27

make that final determination.

19:29

But to me, I think again, start

19:29

with the messaging. Tell the

19:34

students those character traits

19:34

that are important. Let them

19:36

present in the application to

19:36

the multiple different tools

19:40

that we give to them, have your

19:40

staff build that commonality of

19:44

reading so that we know what

19:44

we're looking for and we can

19:46

recognize it in a consistent

19:46

manner, but then also treat

19:50

every student fairly,

19:50

recognizing the experiences that

19:52

they have through the process.

19:52

So that's kind of a nutshell of

19:56

how I see this process. To me

19:56

the ultimate goal. Though, is to

20:01

build a community scholars on

20:01

your campus, where a student can

20:04

say, that's the place where I

20:04

can thrive and grow these

20:08

character traits that are so

20:08

important to me. And this gives

20:12

me the avenue to continue to do

20:12

that too. And then they find

20:15

that that placement in college

20:15

goes all the way back to 1989

20:18

with a young kid starting out as

20:18

an admissions counselor, and I

20:22

see it all coming together now.

20:24

I love that. I

20:24

really love that, and I love

20:27

that, you know, there are

20:27

colleges that are stating their

20:29

values much more clearly. That's

20:29

something that I encourage all

20:33

my students, when we're building

20:33

a colleges, to look at what's in

20:36

the mission statement. Do they

20:36

have a statement of values? And

20:39

a lot of them are sort of like,

20:39

well, they all kind of sound the

20:41

same. Yeah. Same, but as you

20:41

look at more and more of them,

20:45

you do start to pick up those

20:45

nuances. David, I want to see

20:47

what you want to add to what Tom

20:47

just shared. But I also know, I

20:51

think you mentioned in a

20:51

previous call that we had that

20:53

you're working with a lot of

20:53

colleges to get clearer on their

20:57

values, right?

20:59

Yes, in fact, are

20:59

a couple of points there. Tom, I

21:02

want to lift up, certainly for

21:02

students and families who may

21:05

hear this, that it is very

21:05

important for admissions

21:08

offices, just for their own

21:08

sakes, but also because this is

21:12

becoming a an increasingly

21:12

litigious area of our

21:16

profession, that there is

21:16

consistency of a sort, but as

21:19

Tom said, that there's

21:19

flexibility. So students and

21:23

parents, I think, would be well

21:23

served to understand that each

21:26

college is looking for something

21:26

unique to itself, right? Maybe

21:31

when you look over the whole

21:31

landscape, a lot of values that

21:35

institutions emphasize tend to

21:35

start to sound alike, but they

21:39

really are thinking in their own

21:39

heads, even if they end up

21:42

sounding a lot like other

21:42

institutions. So I want to pick

21:45

up on that point. And then

21:45

Sheila, to your question, given

21:48

the environment that we're in

21:48

right now, post Supreme Court

21:51

decision, and I would add that a

21:51

framework that we've been aware

21:55

of and sort of increasingly

21:55

concerned about even before the

21:59

Supreme Court was that

21:59

admissions in the United States

22:02

is functioning with a system.

22:02

And I'll use, I'm using air

22:05

quotes, even if you can't see

22:05

it, a system that was designed

22:10

in the late 1800s early 1900s

22:10

and fundamentally, the practices

22:16

that were put in place were more

22:16

about excluding large numbers of

22:20

people than including and you

22:20

know, there are a lot of

22:24

universities, a lot of systems

22:24

out there doing some great

22:26

innovation, some great work. So

22:26

not to say that we haven't

22:29

changed in 100 years, but this,

22:29

a lot of the elements of that

22:33

system are still in place, and

22:33

we're asking it to do things

22:36

that it was never built to do.

22:36

So NACAC is is really focused

22:40

on, how do we, if we as a

22:40

collection of colleges, or even

22:44

if an individual college really

22:44

wants to rededicate itself to

22:48

its own mission, we have been

22:48

advocating that you be very

22:52

intentional, really take a step

22:52

back and say, This is our

22:56

mission. This is the student

22:56

body we want to assemble. And

23:00

then here are the things that we

23:00

think we need to know about the

23:04

students through the admissions

23:04

process, right? Because right

23:07

now, a lot of admissions

23:07

processes look the same across

23:10

institutions, even though those

23:10

institutions may be trying for

23:12

very different things in the

23:12

recruitment process. So again, I

23:17

don't want to oversimplify

23:17

anything, because, like I said,

23:20

there's a ton of diversity,

23:20

there's a ton of of success

23:23

stories out there, but we'd like

23:23

to be able to help colleges even

23:28

distinguish themselves further

23:28

from some of their competitors,

23:32

from some of their peers, for

23:32

their own survival, for students

23:36

and family's sake, so that

23:36

students, when they look at a

23:38

college, they say, Oh, wow,

23:38

Yeah, that's the experience I'm

23:41

looking for. So we're really

23:41

excited about our work. We are

23:44

going to try to be very future

23:44

focused in helping foster

23:48

innovation in the admissions

23:48

space. And it is all in service

23:52

to two main goals. One is access

23:52

and equity. Because we know the

23:56

population is growing, we know

23:56

there's more people that want

24:00

access to post secondary

24:00

education. We want to be fair

24:03

about it, and we know that

24:03

institutions are facing their

24:06

own crises, some of which are

24:06

existential in nature. And we

24:10

want to make sure that the

24:10

higher education landscape in

24:13

America is vibrant and that it's

24:13

well supported and well served.

24:17

I'm so glad you

24:17

brought that up. The fact that

24:20

the origin of the system that we

24:20

use was very exclusionary, and I

24:24

think a lot of the movements

24:24

towards greater access is just

24:27

trying to just widen that gap

24:27

from landowning white men to,

24:32

you know, all of the rest of us

24:32

out here. And it brings me to a

24:36

question I have about character,

24:36

because even when we talk about

24:40

extracurriculars, right? It was

24:40

a long time before work or

24:44

family responsibilities were

24:44

considered sort of on the same

24:48

level as captain of this team or

24:48

whatever club that a student

24:52

might be doing as an

24:52

extracurricular. And that lens

24:56

on extracurriculars widened,

24:56

really, because of this question

24:59

of access and neck. City that

24:59

there are some families where a

25:02

teenager needs to work to

25:02

provide or needs to take care of

25:05

a sibling or a loved one, or

25:05

their cultural values around

25:09

what they can do outside of the

25:09

home, or what have you,

25:12

especially as we're, you know,

25:12

thinking more increasingly about

25:15

applicants from outside of the

25:15

United States, there are just

25:18

different focuses in different

25:18

school systems and

25:21

extracurriculars happen to be a

25:21

focus of the US education

25:25

system, and not so much in other

25:25

places. But I think in the same

25:29

way, character maybe has this

25:29

sort of other side of the coin

25:35

where it has been used to

25:35

exclude in the past, and

25:40

obviously we want to make sure

25:40

that it is inclusive and helping

25:44

a college meet its goals in

25:44

terms of what it wants to build

25:47

on its campus, but also not some

25:47

coded way of actually keeping an

25:53

entire segment of a population

25:53

out. So what are the kinds of

25:56

things that we can look to there

25:56

to ensure that kind of

25:59

transparency and what

25:59

conversations are being had

26:02

around that aspect of character.

26:05

Well, Sheila, I think

26:05

you did a nice job in terms of

26:07

talking about the fact that the

26:07

thought of how we assess out

26:11

character has broadened, and I

26:11

think in a very, very positive

26:14

way in terms of looking at a

26:14

student, not just in that they

26:17

have to be participating in

26:17

extracurricular activities, but

26:20

they do have worker

26:20

responsibilities or family

26:23

responsibilities or life

26:23

experiences that have shaped

26:26

character traits, and I think

26:26

that's again, where it's so

26:29

important to have a diversity of

26:29

admissions readers who are

26:32

trained up to look for those

26:32

special circumstances and not

26:38

just to recognize but To

26:38

appreciate how that has formed

26:41

and shaped character traits. One

26:41

of the things that David and I

26:46

and others are also working on

26:46

is thinking through also. Most

26:50

all of our youth are also

26:50

finding opportunities to be

26:53

involved with youth development

26:53

organizations, which doesn't

26:57

always tie itself to, you know,

26:57

social economic background,

27:01

either. So for example, here in

27:01

Indiana, Indianapolis,

27:05

specifically, there's a

27:05

organization called Center for

27:08

Leadership Development, which

27:08

serves a lot of marginalized,

27:11

underserved youth. And when you

27:11

look at as these, this

27:16

organization is preparing young

27:16

men and women to go on to

27:19

college. They're also very

27:19

focused on building character

27:23

traits in those individuals, so

27:23

that when they go on to college,

27:28

they're also going to be

27:28

successful too. And you can look

27:31

at other organizations, like

27:31

Upward Bound and so many others

27:33

that are out there. So this idea

27:33

that we as higher education

27:37

institutions should be thinking

27:37

about our affiliation with youth

27:41

development organizations

27:41

because they can tie to so many

27:45

different social, economic or

27:45

student experience backgrounds,

27:48

and as we value those character

27:48

traits that the students acquire

27:52

are introduced to, we open up

27:52

more and more access for more

27:56

kids, knowing that really the

27:56

sole purpose of many of those

27:59

youth development organizations

27:59

is to pair young men and women

28:02

to be successful in college, in

28:02

life, we have to value those

28:06

experiences the students are

28:06

having in those groups. And I

28:09

think it's so fundamentally

28:09

important. So I think, you know,

28:12

we're just finding more and more

28:12

ways to open up our doors, and

28:15

higher education institutions

28:15

have to be, you know,

28:18

thoughtful, but also accepting

28:18

of those other paths that

28:22

students can take to show their

28:22

preparedness and ready for

28:25

success in college.

28:27

David, what would you add?

28:28

Yeah. Sheila, I was going to add, I was at a conference in Boston that was

28:29

put on by Boston College where a

28:33

bunch of professors who focus on

28:33

character had assembled to talk

28:37

about in particular character

28:37

and AI, but there was a lot of

28:41

conversations about character in

28:41

general. And one session, which

28:44

I thought was particularly

28:44

timely was the question of, is

28:47

character compatible with social

28:47

responsibility, equity, social

28:52

justice. And it was a great

28:52

session. I had the opportunity

28:56

to point out that, you know, if

28:56

you look at some of the history

28:58

of college admissions, and I'm

28:58

thinking back particularly to

29:01

Jerome Cara Bell's book called

29:01

The chosen where he really sort

29:06

of documented how admissions

29:06

offices what, how the language

29:09

of admissions offices had, sort

29:09

of had been coded for a very

29:13

long time and had evolved, but

29:13

many of the same codes were

29:17

still in place, and one of them

29:17

that I remember was quality of

29:20

character. And in this specific

29:20

instance, what I'm remembering

29:25

was that quality of character

29:25

used to be code for Jewish

29:28

students. You know, if you

29:28

didn't have the sufficient

29:30

quality of character, you didn't

29:30

come right out and say, you

29:34

know, this student is Jewish,

29:34

and it's been used for all sorts

29:37

of other things, too. And so

29:37

being very mindful of that

29:41

history. One thing that I really

29:41

want to emphasize to our

29:44

profession, to those who watch

29:44

the profession, to students and

29:47

families, this is this effort to

29:47

focus on character. Is intended

29:52

to bust those old molds wide

29:52

open. We want to break those

29:56

molds. The philosophy we have is

29:56

that every. Student exhibits

30:02

some form of character that can

30:02

be considered a strength. It's

30:06

our job to go and find that. And

30:06

so for far too long, I feel like

30:10

we've left too much on the

30:10

table. It comes to just looking

30:13

at grades and test scores, far

30:13

too much on the table that we

30:16

end up leaving out a ton of

30:16

students who are absolutely

30:19

capable, absolutely committed

30:19

and absolutely aligned with the

30:23

work that we want to do as

30:23

institutions. So I'm glad you

30:26

asked that question, because I

30:26

do feel like it's important to

30:29

say right up front to name that

30:29

yes, character has been used

30:33

towards ends that we would not

30:33

agree with. But at this point in

30:35

our history, we are, we are very

30:35

committed to making sure that

30:39

this is an effort to broaden

30:39

access rather than to narrow it.

30:44

That's great.

30:44

I actually think

30:44

that's a great place to leave

30:45

Yes, you know the

30:45

NACAC character focus initiative

30:47

it. Thank you both so much for

30:47

joining me. If people want to

30:50

learn more about character and

30:50

admissions, can you point us to

30:54

a particular website or resource? is the name of our character

30:59

work. And so if you go to

31:03

nacacnet.org, and you can just

31:03

there's a little search bar,

31:08

just put character focus

31:08

initiative, and it'll get you

31:10

right to the homepage. So it's n

31:10

a c a c n e t . o r g

31:17

That's linked in

31:17

this show notes. Well, thank you

31:20

both again for your time. I

31:20

really enjoyed our conversation.

31:22

Great. Thank you.

31:24

Thanks.

31:27

Gosh. What a great

31:27

conversation. And for me, just

31:29

so validating, because putting

31:29

character first is something

31:33

that we've always done at

31:33

Signet. So it's really

31:35

validating to see the data

31:35

around this and see that

31:39

colleges do care about character

31:39

in the way that we've always

31:43

guided our students to care

31:43

about it. So I'm sure this will

31:46

be a topic we come back to

31:46

often. And you know, one of the

31:50

things we mentioned in this

31:50

conversation is that a place

31:53

that character can be assessed

31:53

is in the essay, or essays, if

31:58

multiple are required. And I

31:58

wanted to highlight a session

32:02

that I am running on June 17, at

32:02

5pm Eastern with some of my most

32:07

experienced Admissions

32:07

Consultants and writing coaches

32:11

to talk about the college essay,

32:11

and we are going to discuss it

32:15

from a number of different

32:15

angles. From what are the

32:18

colleges looking for and what

32:18

kind of stories are they hoping

32:22

to hear about students, but also

32:22

some really practical guidance

32:26

on how do you get started? What

32:26

does a good writing schedule

32:30

look like, and how do you set

32:30

expectations around timelines

32:34

and deadlines and final

32:34

proofreading, even, how involved

32:38

should parents be in this

32:38

process? So I hope that you'll

32:41

join us. Check the show notes

32:41

for the link, or you can check

32:45

our events page on our website

32:45

or on my LinkedIn. Thanks,

32:48

everybody. We'll see you next time you.