0:00

And it's exciting because I think that is very much the future of education.

0:01

And it's also just a very

0:05

inspiring part of our mission, I

0:05

think, to be able to serve

0:09

students who are, they have

0:09

families, they have businesses,

0:14

they have professional careers,

0:14

or they have their own business,

0:16

they have a lot on their plate.

0:16

And they are doing these courses

0:20

or doing these degree programs

0:20

for career advancement or for

0:24

personal Richmond, or for many

0:24

other reasons.

0:40

Hey, everybody,

0:40

welcome back to the podcast and

0:43

happy June, I can't believe

0:43

we're halfway through this year

0:47

already. And we're so close to

0:47

the end of the school year. For

0:51

most students, it's a very

0:51

exciting time, it is a very

0:55

stressful and trying time as we

0:55

try to wrap things up. And for a

0:59

lot of students really embark on

0:59

the essay writing portion of the

1:04

college application process, I

1:04

know it can be very stressful.

1:08

So definitely stay tuned for

1:08

some episodes about that and

1:12

free event we're doing on the

1:12

17th on the college essay with a

1:16

bunch of my best writing

1:16

coaches. So today on the

1:19

podcast, I've got an old friend

1:19

joining us. It's Chris Davis,

1:23

who is the director of the

1:23

Center for Academic Resources at

1:27

Harvard Extension School, and

1:27

I'll let him explain what that

1:31

is and what he does. But he's

1:31

got some interesting

1:35

perspectives to share on how

1:35

Harvard adapted to pandemic

1:39

learning the kinds of students

1:39

they're trying to serve through

1:43

their extension school

1:43

programming. And the way they

1:46

think about student experience,

1:46

it's really quite inspiring. So

1:51

take a listen, I hope you enjoy.

1:51

I want people to learn about you

1:55

know, you and what you do, and

1:55

the kind of programs that are

1:59

offered through Harvard

1:59

Extension and the kind of impact

2:03

that you get to see with your

2:03

students, because I think a lot

2:07

of the people who listen to my

2:07

podcast are very fixated on like

2:11

a very traditional idea of what

2:11

higher education looks like. And

2:16

I think there's so much more out

2:16

there, that is really

2:19

innovative, where the actual

2:19

innovation in education is

2:23

happening, the actual impact is

2:23

happening. And I want people to

2:27

hear about that.

2:29

Oh, thank you,

2:29

Sheila. So yeah, let me start

2:31

out with just introducing myself

2:31

very quickly. I'm Chris Davis.

2:35

I'm the Associate Director of

2:35

the Career and Academic Resource

2:39

Center here at Harvard Extension

2:39

School, Harvard Extension School

2:43

sits within the Division of

2:43

Continuing Education at Harvard.

2:47

And yes, I'm so glad you started

2:47

out that way. Because it feels

2:51

like to me, especially over the

2:51

past five years, there's just

2:55

been more of a global

2:55

appreciation for non traditional

2:58

learning in many senses. And I

2:58

certainly think that's part of

3:02

our mission, lifelong learning

3:02

as part of our mission. So just

3:06

very quick synopsis of who we

3:06

are and what we do. The Harvard

3:09

Extension School offers graduate

3:09

certificates, an undergraduate

3:13

degree program, many graduate

3:13

degree programs in the

3:16

humanities, liberal arts and

3:16

sciences, professional fields,

3:20

are pre MediCal program. And we

3:20

also have hundreds of courses

3:24

that are taken by people who are

3:24

here for one course, or people

3:28

who take multiple courses on the

3:28

path to a graduate certificate

3:32

or degree program. So we serve

3:32

students in many different ways.

3:36

The median age is in the 30s.

3:36

But we have students younger and

3:39

much older than that. Many of

3:39

them many of the ones who are

3:43

pursuing degrees are

3:43

professionals. They are full

3:46

time career folks, sometimes mid

3:46

career or senior career, who are

3:50

here to complete a degree or to

3:50

start a degree that they weren't

3:54

able to when they were younger.

3:54

And it's exciting, because I

3:58

think that is very much the

3:58

future of education. And it's

4:01

also just very inspiring part of

4:01

our mission, I think, to be able

4:05

to serve students who are they

4:05

have families, they have

4:09

businesses, they have

4:09

professional careers, or they

4:12

have their own business, they

4:12

have a lot on their plate. And

4:16

they are doing these courses or

4:16

doing these degree programs for

4:20

career advancement or for

4:20

personal enrichment, or for many

4:23

other reasons.

4:25

I wonder if we can

4:25

back up a little bit and talk

4:27

about how you got into this

4:27

work. Personally, what drove you

4:31

here?

4:32

Oh, my goodness.

4:32

That's an interesting question.

4:34

So yeah, I was originally from

4:34

Boston. And I began my first

4:39

role at Harvard at the business

4:39

school and then I came to the to

4:42

the Extension School because,

4:42

yeah, I mean, the original

4:46

population of students that I

4:46

work with were very much non

4:48

traditional students, adult

4:48

learners, and that really spoke

4:52

to me it's always spoken to me.

4:54

That's great. I'm

4:54

also curious, you know, as you

4:57

SAT in this role through the pen

4:57

endemic before the pandemic,

5:01

during the pandemic and after

5:01

the pandemic, I'm wondering if

5:04

you can comment on some of the

5:04

changes that you've seen both in

5:07

terms of what students need, but

5:07

also what students want from

5:12

their education.

5:14

The interesting

5:14

thing is that for us, even

5:17

beforehand, a good chunk of our

5:17

course delivery was already

5:22

online, we have students, as I

5:22

said, who are across the country

5:26

who around the world. So we

5:26

already were kind of pioneers in

5:31

that online education space. So

5:31

we already had a very strong

5:36

bedrock in serving global

5:36

student population, online

5:40

education was something we were

5:40

very comfortable with. So unlike

5:44

other institutions, we certainly

5:44

had to pivot and change some

5:46

stuff, but it wasn't like, you

5:46

know, I know a lot of people

5:49

were very much discombobulated

5:49

by having to overnight, adjust

5:54

their pedagogy and their their

5:54

course delivery, so so

5:57

dramatically, it wasn't the same

5:57

with us. But it's also very

6:01

important because people's lives

6:01

changed. That was one of the

6:04

things that I tried to respond

6:04

to certainly, as quickly as I

6:08

could, because, yeah, we had a

6:08

population of students who were

6:13

professionals, and who had

6:13

families who had childcare

6:17

commitments. And so people got

6:17

laid off, or people were working

6:21

from home, and juggling

6:21

childcare. So all of a sudden,

6:24

our students needs changed as

6:24

well, a lot of people across the

6:28

world, not just our students,

6:28

but we're figuring out how to

6:31

juggle all of this, while really

6:31

having to have their

6:35

professional, what was expected

6:35

of them adjusted as well. So I

6:40

responded by working with some

6:40

of the people that I that I work

6:43

with, to present some of our

6:43

programming to do new sessions

6:48

on how to juggle studying, with

6:48

childcare and remote work and

6:54

those kinds of things.

6:54

Increasing, having new sessions

6:58

on positive psychology based

6:58

methods of coping with stress

7:03

and burnout, some of those

7:03

programs I still do to this day.

7:06

So yeah, certainly the needs of

7:06

our students changed, not just

7:10

in their in their academic work,

7:10

but in their lives, which ended

7:13

up impacting their academic work.

7:16

And forgive my

7:16

ignorance here, but how many

7:19

students a year are you serving

7:19

through Harvard Simpson school

7:22

programming?

7:24

Oh, gosh, just to

7:24

give you an example, in the fall

7:27

and spring semesters, you know,

7:27

we have around nine or 10,000

7:32

students, and they are across

7:32

the globe, literally, it's a

7:36

very diverse population.

7:38

Yeah, and for the

7:38

listeners to put that in context

7:41

that's bigger than the Harvard

7:41

undergraduate population. So

7:44

that's a significant number of

7:44

students and a lot of resources.

7:48

And I've always really loved the

7:48

Extension School because you get

7:52

more flexibility in terms of

7:52

timing or, you know, format of

7:56

the course. But it's the same

7:56

course that the Harvard

7:59

undergrads would take, or the

7:59

Harvard grads would take,

8:02

depending on the instructor. So

8:02

it's just a really wonderful way

8:06

to bring access to people who

8:06

might otherwise not not have it.

8:09

So as you look ahead to 2024,

8:09

what are some of your

8:13

priorities? Where are you really

8:13

excited to develop things and innovate?

8:18

One of the things

8:18

that excites me, and I think

8:21

this is, I mean, again, this

8:21

predates the pandemic. But it

8:25

kind of dovetails really nicely,

8:25

because I think it aligns with

8:30

what I was talking about earlier, which is kind of meeting students where they are.

8:32

And also, yeah, adjusting to

8:37

changing needs and changing

8:37

technologies and multimedia kind

8:41

of programming and things that

8:41

are in shorter kind of

8:44

increments or smaller packages.

8:44

I'm excited to be developing the

8:50

CARC podcast is something that

8:50

maybe you can relate to as a

8:55

fellow podcast host. But that's

8:55

something that I started in

8:58

2019. And it's grown and

8:58

evolved. And it's been an

9:02

opportunity to have

9:02

conversations with Harvard

9:06

faculty and students and alumni

9:06

and subject matter experts and

9:10

authors, some very special

9:10

people in a way that just, I

9:16

think adds to what we do. I

9:16

think, from the feedback I've

9:20

gotten from students, it's

9:20

relatable. They're more kind of

9:24

casual conversations about

9:24

interesting, relevant things,

9:28

but less as an official

9:28

presentation and in a

9:31

difference, like a fireside chat

9:31

kind of method. And that's

9:35

something that I've been very

9:35

excited about throughout this

9:37

time and, and to continue doing

9:37

that.

9:40

Yeah, I totally

9:40

agree with that. I feel like

9:43

it's very humanizing medium. And

9:43

I think part of the thing that I

9:49

get really excited about with

9:49

podcast is that listeners

9:52

students mostly good to hear

9:52

that we're all just normal

9:55

people. And you know, from from

9:55

the outside looking in, it may

9:59

look like Go there was a

9:59

straight line to success or

10:03

they'd never struggled, or they

10:03

always had it figured out. But

10:07

on a medium like a podcast, you

10:07

get to really hear those

10:10

challenges and the pivots and

10:10

the random acts of kindness that

10:14

that set people up to, you know

10:14

where they are now. And I think

10:17

that's really empowering. Well,

10:17

there's one thing I wanted to go

10:21

back to before I let you go,

10:21

which was, you know, you're part

10:25

of the Department of continuing

10:25

education at Harvard. And you

10:28

mentioned that over the last

10:28

five years or so, the

10:31

conversation about non

10:31

traditional learners has gotten

10:34

a lot more mainstream. And

10:34

certainly in my world, I see

10:39

more people willing to look at

10:39

you know, now I live in

10:41

California, a lot more people

10:41

willing to look at a community

10:45

to four year university

10:45

transfer. And the vast majority

10:50

of college going students in the

10:50

United States start at a

10:54

community college, right. And

10:54

we, the media, we all tend to

10:57

focus on, you know, a very

10:57

select few of which Harvard is

11:01

one as the model of education.

11:01

But that's not the reality of

11:04

where the majority of students

11:04

get educated. So I'm wondering

11:06

if you have thoughts on like,

11:06

that entire movement? Where do

11:09

you see it going? I really feel

11:09

like there has to be a sea

11:14

change coming. There is just too

11:14

much competition for those very

11:18

few spots at what we consider

11:18

the most elite schools. And they

11:22

are not educating the majority

11:22

of students. There's a big

11:25

change coming in the workforce.

11:25

I mean, it's happening in the

11:28

workforce, both with remote work

11:28

in AI, things are really

11:32

changing, and traditional

11:32

education may not serve the

11:35

goals of this evolving

11:35

workplace. So I'm curious what

11:40

your thoughts are on like the

11:40

future of continuing education

11:43

and where it can be most

11:43

impactful? Oh,

11:45

gosh, well, that

11:45

yeah, that's a million, zillion

11:49

dollar question. I will say this

11:49

from observing, from where I'm

11:53

positioned from where we're

11:53

positioned has been very

11:57

interesting. I think also, there

11:57

is more broad recognition among

12:01

the general public students,

12:01

prospective employers, industry

12:05

leaders, thought leaders,

12:05

political leaders, that yeah,

12:09

things have changed. And this,

12:09

how permanent that is in what

12:13

increments will change more,

12:13

when is that going to happen? I

12:17

think that's something which

12:17

unsettles people but it's also

12:21

an exciting future that lies

12:21

ahead for all of us. Education

12:25

evolving. And as you mentioned,

12:25

the workforce evolving what how,

12:29

how much remote work is going to

12:29

stay with us and what in what

12:34

increment that the future will

12:34

tell us. But that's not going

12:38

away. But exciting way of

12:38

looking at these is that there

12:41

are always opportunities to

12:41

increase accessibility, to open

12:45

up whether we're talking about

12:45

education or accessibility in

12:50

the workforce, or non

12:50

traditional students entering

12:53

higher ed, we can increase the

12:53

opportunities that that people

12:57

have. So yeah, I'm very much I'm

12:57

not trying to prognosticate.

13:01

Yeah, and as we

13:01

watch, employers, consider

13:04

whether they really need college

13:04

degrees to fulfill certain

13:08

responsibilities or what AI

13:08

decides to completely disrupt or

13:12

replace. And then how education

13:12

adapts to prepare students for

13:16

that world, I think is just a

13:16

really, like you said, can be a

13:20

little unsettling, but I think

13:20

there's a lot of excitement and

13:24

possibility there, too. Well, I

13:24

think that's a great place to

13:28

leave it. Chris, thank you so

13:28

much for joining me today.

13:31

Sheila, thank you

13:31

for having me. I really

13:33

appreciate this.

13:34

This was great.

13:34

Thank you. Thanks again,

13:37

everybody, for tuning in. We'll

13:37

see you next week, where my

13:41

guests will be David Hawkins and

13:41

Tom Bear. Talking about the role

13:45

of character in the admissions

13:45

process, which is one of my

13:49

favorite things to talk about.

13:49

And we've got two experts who

13:52

can tell us about the character

13:52

initiative at the National

13:56

Association of College

13:56

admissions counselors, so be

13:59

sure to tune in next week and

13:59

hope to see you then bye.