0:00

Oh hey there, it's only a...

0:03

it's only another bonus episode on a

0:05

Friday isn't it? It's only only gone and happened.

0:08

Yeah, as you may have caught last

0:11

week, every Friday this month for Pride

0:13

we are doing a rewind of

0:16

an episode that has LGBTQ

0:19

connections and connotations.

0:22

And for this one we're going all the

0:24

way back to 2015. When I had someone

0:26

on called Tall Dark Friend who

0:28

was a local musician,

0:31

they went on to be known more

0:34

widely as Jordan Grey and have had

0:36

huge success at

0:38

the Fringe on all sorts of

0:41

Channel 4 shows and BBC

0:43

shows, just absolutely

0:45

having an amazing

0:48

time of things. And

0:50

I got a chance to sit down with them prior to

0:52

that. And bear in

0:54

mind this is 2015, so in this

0:56

episode this is quite a strange

0:58

one for me to do a rewind

1:00

of because I'm so ignorant in

1:03

this episode. I'm learning about trans

1:06

culture, about trans life, so

1:08

excuse any missteps on my part

1:10

please. But yeah, this

1:12

was almost 10 years ago and Jordan

1:16

was such a beautiful

1:19

educator to me and

1:21

to really progress my journey and

1:23

understanding all of these things. So

1:26

yeah, let's go! Hello!

1:52

That's my big start. I'm joined

1:54

by Miss Jordan Grey, aka Tall Dark

1:56

Friend. into

2:00

a nice comfortable living room and I've

2:02

brought all my uncomfortable gear to

2:04

take over the place. That's great, thanks for being

2:06

here. Have you noticed all the Elvis stuff everywhere?

2:08

It's great, yeah, there's a lot of Elvis stuff.

2:11

This is my father's house. I think that's the

2:13

only artist he's ever listened to. Amazing. You've got

2:15

to love Elvis, right? Yeah, he's looking at the

2:17

crocheted Elvis picture on the wall. Yeah, I am.

2:19

That's what I was drawn to immediately. Are you

2:22

an Elvis fan as well? I am, I'm a

2:24

big Elvis fan. What era

2:26

of Elvis? He's kind of into everything.

2:28

I'm 68, come back and beyond. I

2:30

really like that session. You stack studio sessions. I

2:32

agree completely. I think the kind of the

2:35

GI blues type era and all that is kind

2:37

of... The early

2:39

Elvis I find it's lovely, but

2:41

the later Elvis, it feels like

2:43

he's lived as Elvis for a

2:45

bit. And that's more exciting to me because no

2:48

one else has lived as Elvis. It's

2:50

such a unique person that when it was new

2:52

and fresh, it wasn't... After he's lived

2:54

as Elvis and you can see the damage of it

2:56

in many ways, it's far more exciting to me. Well,

2:58

my father was telling me yesterday, it was almost the

3:01

case that the 68 comeback was going to be a

3:03

really watered down, kind of Christmassy thing. He was going to be sitting

3:05

there and he sort of jumped on the couch and it wasn't

3:07

the Colonel, it wasn't his manager. It was somebody else

3:10

brought in this idea of getting him out there in

3:12

the leathers and doing all this new stuff. Amazing, right?

3:14

That era could not have happened. That's amazing. That is

3:16

quintessential Elvis for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing

3:18

that that could have... Because it really

3:20

is, it's one of the most distinctive. Because if

3:22

you think prior to that, it was all...

3:27

...gene. It was sexual, but it was all

3:29

jeans, you know, open shirt, but still

3:32

quite tame. Still quite... It

3:35

wasn't quite what it turned into in the leather jumpsuits

3:37

and the absolute... They showed his hips on TV. Yeah,

3:39

yeah. Do you remember that, the whole thing with the

3:41

Ed Sullivan show and the Ginter? Yeah, they weren't allowed

3:43

to ask. That's insane. How is it? I mean... The

3:46

angles they cover now on some of the girls' cuts in on TV. I mean,

3:48

that's going to say it's a hell of a pair of hips. Anyway,

3:52

so it's a credit to that. But yeah,

3:54

the angles they switch to and

3:56

change now. Before

3:58

we started rolling, we were discussing... a Miley

4:01

Cyrus. And it may be a shock to some

4:03

of you, but we were discussing Miley Cyrus in

4:05

a positive light and positive manner, which I'm sure

4:07

we'll get to a little later. But yeah, just

4:09

thinking there, there's just, I

4:11

mean, the freedom of media and Instagram just means

4:14

I've seen all possibly every angle

4:16

of Miley Cyrus that it's possible to, to

4:18

see that as much as a gynecologist. I

4:20

don't even follow her on Instagram yet. It

4:22

comes up so much on the recommended that

4:24

I've literally seen every angle of young Miley.

4:28

We only started talking about

4:31

this yesterday and it's come together

4:33

really quickly as a podcast. I'm really excited

4:35

to be here. I, you're, I mean,

4:39

let's clarify. You were assigned male at birth

4:41

and you're

4:44

now two years of full-time

4:47

female on estrogen therapy. Yeah, that's

4:50

the whole, that's

4:53

basically, obviously we'll get into all that a lot

4:55

more because I find it fascinating. It's

4:57

incredibly trendy at the moment

5:00

to be covering trans

5:02

culture and, and everything trans and it's something

5:05

that not that I've showed away from, but

5:07

I try not to just go, oh, this

5:09

is cool. Let's try and cover that now.

5:11

But what excited me about talking to you

5:13

was you're going through all

5:15

this and have been for a couple of years now

5:18

in Tilbury in Essex, not in Hollywood

5:21

or even in London. And for anyone who

5:23

doesn't know Tilbury, it's just up the road

5:25

from me. In fact, it's between me and

5:27

the first guest, Russell Brand. It's between where

5:29

we grew up. It's literally in the middle

5:31

there. And it's not the

5:33

most glamorous or certainly

5:36

not the most

5:38

open-minded of, of, of, of areas.

5:40

So that instantly fascinated me

5:46

of the reality of, of, of all of

5:49

this. Yeah, I think I find Thorok a

5:51

very, it's a desperate feeling place. It's, it's

5:53

a very, it's a very physical

5:55

sensation I'm aware of as I'm speeding away on the

5:58

train out of thorok. all

6:00

the pressure just drops, all the tension drops, it's a

6:02

very peculiar feeling, it's so tense in Tharok. And obviously

6:04

I grew up there, so there's gonna be connections there

6:07

and stuff. Yeah, of course. It has taught me that,

6:09

you know, because of the

6:11

lack of education, that no one is

6:13

inherently an evil or a bad

6:15

person with the things they say, it's all sincere.

6:17

They're saying what they're saying, they sincerely mean what

6:19

they're saying, and I sort of can't knock sincerity,

6:22

even if it's misguided, that's my kind of thing.

6:24

Completely, yeah, there's, there's

6:27

a quote I say all the time, I

6:29

think I'm now intentionally not remembering who it's

6:31

by. But it's

6:33

very relevant, it's Harlan's as someone.

6:35

But it's just saying that, because

6:38

again, in our area as well, you'll get a lot

6:40

of people saying, well, you know, I'm entitled to my

6:42

opinion. That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. And there's

6:44

a great quote of, you,

6:47

we are not entitled to our own opinions,

6:49

we are entitled to our own informed opinions.

6:52

And I think that's great, I think it's a beautiful

6:54

thing, but I think it really rings through growing up

6:56

in the areas that we've grown up in, because there's

6:58

so many people, as you said, there is a sincerity

7:00

and there's not, they truly believe

7:02

that. And again, let's clarify, Thoreau

7:06

is one of the strongholds of UKIP, it's one

7:08

of the strongest bases of UKIP. They were, we

7:11

were one of the few areas where it

7:13

was a slight sigh of relief when

7:16

the Tories got in, because the other

7:18

alternative, the nearest alternative was genuinely looking

7:20

like it may be UKIP. So despite

7:22

everyone in the country, quite rightfully being

7:25

furious at the Tories taking power, there

7:27

was an element of, well,

7:30

it could have been worse. Absolutely, it could

7:33

legitimately have been worse. Yeah, and again, it's

7:35

not, it's that whole thing of,

7:37

and I'm sure you'll have this as well, that

7:39

we, so many people you went to school with,

7:41

who you're like, oh, they're all right, but

7:44

they are UKIP voters, or they are this

7:46

and they are that. And it's something I've really

7:48

struggled with, because the fact is they're not all right.

7:51

They're not all right, it's not all right to have

7:53

those opinions. It's uneducated. But this,

7:55

there's another quote, I can't remember who it was. I

7:57

think it was Ricky Gervais who I remember hearing saying

7:59

about. But you do, the way

8:01

we live our lives, you are supposed to respect people's

8:03

right to have an opinion. You have no obligation to

8:06

respect that opinion and there's a big difference. Yeah. Yeah.

8:10

Yeah. You

8:13

absolutely don't have to give it any credence. You don't have to argue

8:15

with it. Yeah. Again, we're just going

8:17

a quote for quote now.

8:19

But I remember Stephen

8:21

Fry brilliantly ran in

8:23

once about the

8:26

fact that people feel they have a

8:28

right to not be offended by stuff. And

8:31

he was like, I don't care if someone tells me

8:33

I'm offended by that. It's like, well, good for you. That's

8:35

part of you. You're entitled to be offended

8:37

by that. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't say it or

8:40

shouldn't. No. If it's something I believe

8:42

in and stand for. And again, particularly with obviously

8:44

a lot of his history will be of sexuality

8:46

and things like that where he came up against

8:48

resistance. And it's like, that's

8:50

fine for you to be offended by

8:53

me, by anything I say. So

8:56

kind of how has it been?

9:00

And again, I want to get on to the reason I heard

9:02

about you was because of your music and I want

9:05

to get into all that. But this is a fascinating

9:07

starting point of how

9:09

have the last two years been

9:12

and how are the years leading up

9:14

to those two years? I'm very

9:16

aware that I've

9:18

not had it as hard as a

9:20

lot of trans people that I know in many respects

9:22

I have a gender neutral name. I was born Jordan.

9:24

So that just was easy. That's perfect. And then you

9:26

said to me, so when are you going to change

9:28

your name? So why would I want to do that?

9:30

It's on all my albums and all my books and

9:32

everything. It's just administrative nightmare. I did have to pay

9:34

to pay to change your name.

9:36

There's no procedure, believe it or not, legally to go

9:38

from Mr. To Ms. To change that one letter. You

9:40

have to change your name. So I added a second

9:43

middle name to get that extra S. So my second

9:45

middle name is Gossamer, which is spiders web. Yeah. I'm

9:48

just into spiders. So yeah, I've been

9:50

very privileged because there is a legal

9:52

process for changing from it. You'd

9:54

think they just want to take your money. Do you have to change your name?

9:56

She said, would you change? everything.

10:00

So my business cards and my email.

10:02

Exactly, that's too much effort to go

10:04

through all of these, your

10:06

Facebook, everything else.

10:08

It's like there's too much now that you've

10:10

already registered yourself in. Also because I am

10:12

an entertainer and I have been since I

10:14

left college, I think people at first thought

10:17

it was just like a costume change

10:19

almost like a bowie kind

10:21

of thing, it was just a different chapter, which

10:23

was hard, but again, I've transitioned very easily because

10:25

then people realised I was able to literally walk

10:27

on stage however I wanted one day

10:29

and they go, oh, Jordan's a bit quirky this

10:32

week. I mean, that's kind of a beautiful advantage

10:34

there then of kind of a

10:39

way of breaking the

10:41

news as such in the least

10:43

subtle way, like being able to walk out in

10:45

front of all of your friends

10:48

and go like, look, this is, and then we'll go,

10:50

all right, well, that's, you know, this is going, it's

10:52

on stage. So it kind of softens

10:55

any shock or blow to then be, no,

10:57

this is just, this is me now.

10:59

And well, I came out on stage at the

11:01

Essex Entertainment Awards in 2014. I was literally, I

11:03

was already dressed up. It wasn't like I suddenly

11:05

said I was in a cat suit. It's that

11:07

thing as well. Once you're on the stage, the

11:10

front, you don't have to put up any more

11:12

front than that. You're already on the stage. So

11:14

people that don't know you say, all right, well,

11:16

that's a legitimate thing that's going on right here.

11:18

Like, you know, she's now saying that she's transgender,

11:20

you know, the public like you said on stage,

11:22

this, yeah, I don't have to justify it. And

11:24

it's beautiful, a thing like that, because as

11:27

weird as it is, this, the, the

11:29

scariness of having a public figure

11:32

for that cunning, it also

11:34

means you don't have to explain it

11:36

to every person. No, because word will get round and it'll

11:38

be there. It's kind of, it's like people

11:40

just know that there'll be a

11:43

week or two where people are going, oh, have you heard about

11:45

Jordan cunning? And, but it's good because it means that you're not

11:47

having to do that. Yeah,

11:50

exactly. The reason I'm in a dress today. I was

11:52

also very ill for 2005 to 2008. Very ill

11:57

for sensory perception disorder. I

12:00

wrote my first autobiography with that exact same intent that

12:02

I wish that everyone would just have a copy So

12:04

we have to have that conversation in the in times

12:06

of every just read this That's

12:09

it and it would then it was it just passes

12:11

by so I've been fortunate So

12:13

what was that? Were you in hospital for is that

12:16

an patient? Yeah, I've

12:18

a my brain. It's like very common synesthesia.

12:20

Yeah, very very common thing It's just a

12:22

typical presentation of that so spatial awareness is

12:24

sometimes a bit difficult But I'm

12:26

also on a lot of estrogen now, which right genuinely

12:29

this is the amazing part about the human brain It's

12:31

so incredible. So we've evolved. I've got

12:33

this binary difference between men and women we can

12:35

talk about this I don't go crazy into the

12:37

science We've

12:40

got this the male circuit this 3d sort of

12:42

spatial awareness Yeah You know that comes with hunting

12:44

and gathering food and a social and emotional Circuit

12:46

and that was used to knit the family unit

12:49

when we still lived in tribes, you know Yeah,

12:51

we have both those circuits But they express themselves

12:53

differently based on what hormone is flushing through your

12:55

body as you grow, you know from

12:57

a from an embryo upwards So we're

12:59

now switched to estrogen the male circuits shut down

13:02

physically shut down It's called epigenetics and the female

13:04

ones are loading up. So every social interaction I

13:06

have now It's like it's the first time I've

13:08

ever done it. It's so incredible.

13:10

That's amazing Again,

13:15

it's exciting that it's so that

13:17

we're learning to have such control over these things

13:19

to be able to go, right Let's turn that

13:21

bit off and turn this bit. Well, that's the

13:23

end again It's the thing that really this

13:26

this idea This is the theories that I have I'm

13:28

putting forward a little paper on it in nature this

13:30

idea of sexual dimorphism You know and the

13:32

difference between the male and the female of some

13:35

species like a snakes and spiders The female is

13:37

so much larger and you can tell the difference.

13:39

Yeah with mammals May, may be an evolution

13:41

it tends not to be too much of a difference, you know Especially

13:44

with humans if you imagine like a

13:46

naked male and naked female and

13:48

that we are now sitting here. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah

13:50

and uh Ungroomed

13:54

they're essentially the same thing apart from a few minor

13:56

differences. Yeah, so we

13:58

have hijacked that our

14:01

own evolution, as we do with almost every

14:03

aspect of evolution, we've hijacked that and accentuated

14:05

that difference with external things like different clothes

14:07

and different behaviours to serve to sort of

14:10

widen that binary divide. Yeah, to make it

14:12

clear a difference. Which I

14:14

mean, whether or not that's a good thing, I don't know, but

14:16

it does still serve a purpose, even though it's so

14:18

sort of illusory. It means that for a

14:21

trans person like me, if it was just

14:23

a case of your men and women based on

14:25

your genital presentation, I'm not embarrassed

14:27

to admit I'd be in the metal camp at this point

14:29

in my life, which is unfortunate because I don't have the

14:32

skill set to be a man. My brain is female. So

14:34

to have those two

14:36

camps, you can gravitate towards the one that you

14:39

feel most comfortable with and then you

14:42

find solace there. It's a very peculiar way

14:44

that we've evolved. It definitely is. It's fascinating

14:46

how we try and accentuate that. And I

14:48

don't know if that's a

14:51

discomfort, a fear of

14:53

not being confused. Yeah, it didn't. Here's

14:56

what I'm into. They look like that and

14:58

they have makeup on and they have this,

15:00

rather than it being this confusing crossover.

15:03

I find it fascinating. There's often

15:07

a misperception that

15:09

homosexuality was accepted

15:16

amongst the Greeks. It's

15:19

not that. It just wasn't a thing. They didn't have

15:22

gay or straight. They had

15:24

dominant and submissive, essentially. It

15:27

was essentially, regardless of gender,

15:29

you were attracted. If you

15:31

were a dominant person,

15:33

you were attracted to a submissive

15:36

type. And that just went across

15:38

the genders. That's fantastic. So it wasn't even, again,

15:40

it's a myth that it's like, oh, everyone was

15:42

gay or this, that. It's like, no, there

15:44

wasn't even that. There wasn't even that divide. It was just,

15:48

is that a vessel? To

15:50

put it bluntly, is that a vessel that can

15:52

satisfy me sexually? Yeah. Because it was

15:54

such a separate thing there. They had their intellectual goals

15:57

and areas and they had their... sexual

16:00

and physical needs and desires and it wasn't a

16:03

crossed over thing. It's almost more of an evolved thing,

16:05

you know, more of an evolved way of going about

16:07

things. I know my friend just got back from Thailand

16:09

and he said similar premise but with gender. There's no

16:11

real, until the influx of Western culture, they didn't have

16:13

a word for he and she. So when

16:16

you translate into English, Thai people would

16:18

just say he for everyone or she for everyone.

16:20

I don't know the actual details. But yeah, that's

16:22

amazing. It's fascinating that also, which

16:25

term is it? Baby.

16:29

Used to mean specifically...

16:31

No, I

16:34

can't think what it was actually. No. It's

16:37

one of the terms either boy or girl. Okay.

16:40

Used to just mean child. Right. And

16:42

it wasn't a separated thing. Again, I

16:45

should have researched this more and got the facts but

16:47

there's numerous things like that that it just meant child.

16:49

Yeah. It became, I'm sure it

16:51

was girl and then it

16:53

became because then again, that

16:56

divide and that instantly

16:59

in blue or in pink, it became that

17:01

divide and became a thing. Which as far

17:03

as I remember, anecdotally, I think someone told

17:05

me that that used to be the other

17:07

way around. Oh really? Yeah.

17:10

Victorian era, maybe earlier than that. Plantagenet era, it was

17:12

pink for boys and blue for girls. It's

17:14

fascinating. It truly is fascinating. It's bizarre because it's

17:17

also illusory but it's part of the human experience.

17:19

So we are here now so it's important to

17:21

us. In the grand scheme of things, I pride

17:24

myself on my objectivity my whole life. That's been my

17:26

kind of thing. And yet I'm

17:28

aware, very aware that I spend a lot of time doling

17:31

myself up because if I don't, then I'll receive the,

17:33

I'll get misgendered and I've received the wrong pronouns. So

17:35

the act of sort of doling yourself up feels like

17:37

a very trivial thing. And in the grand scheme, it

17:39

is. And yet at the same time, it takes up

17:41

so much of my life and I do put time

17:43

into it. Because it's an important thing

17:45

to, because of how we interact

17:49

and perceive people. It's like you need

17:51

to make it clear. Here's how you're meant

17:54

to be reacting to me. Even if

17:56

they know just what I'm going for. I don't

17:58

expect to. That's another misconception. direction.

18:00

Yeah, well, some people think that transgender

18:03

people are out to fool the

18:05

opposite sex into thinking they were

18:07

genetically born. Yeah. I have

18:09

no delusion that I was born female. Yeah.

18:12

It's a genetic difference, the X and Y,

18:14

the genetic binary that's only relevant

18:16

in medicine and

18:21

to doctors, everything else you are there. That's it.

18:23

This is the important, this is the takeaway phrase

18:25

is that you are the gender you present as,

18:27

that's the accepted sort of, yeah, the way it

18:29

is now, you know, you are the gender that

18:32

you present as, and you don't flip between the

18:34

two. That's a very different thing. You know, I've

18:36

got to contend for every sort of legitimate

18:38

trans woman that's going through this process.

18:41

There's sort of nine cross

18:43

dressing men. And that's a different thing. That's

18:46

a, it's a lifestyle choice for

18:48

sexual or emotional reasons, you know. And

18:51

that is something that's a stereotype

18:53

we have to contend with, because being trans

18:55

can be quite infantilizing anyway, again, it's such

18:57

a confusing thing. And I want to go

18:59

into all of that with, as I said,

19:01

with cross dressing, we'll talk later

19:03

on the entertainment side with drag queens and

19:05

things like that is it's

19:07

so, it's still newly

19:11

being discussed and it's still not

19:13

really understood. So even

19:16

on the sexuality side, let's

19:20

start off with when

19:22

you kind of decided off or

19:24

realized that you were incorrectly

19:27

gender. Okay, well,

19:30

I remember. Yeah, that's misgendered. Yeah, misgendered. Oh,

19:32

whatever. Yeah. But that's the other thing, just

19:34

because I'm transgender, that doesn't mean I'm a

19:36

hub for all the info. Yeah, that's like,

19:38

I was saying to someone the other day,

19:40

if there was

19:43

an issue on race or something, you just thought that

19:45

I'll ask Sam Jackson, because he's the most famous black

19:47

person. Yeah, he wasn't involved in the incident. Yeah, you

19:49

know. So

19:52

I don't know the terms, but I do my best. Yeah. And I

19:54

don't remember thinking I was a girl and I was little, I just

19:56

didn't think I was a boy. I thought there was something wrong and

19:58

there was a, well, an alien. can

1:10:00

relate to the idea, say of a trans

1:10:02

woman transforming, it's a human transformation that's so

1:10:04

obvious that you can see that's

1:10:07

something that everyone strives for, this transformation into a

1:10:09

sort of a more authentic version of yourself with

1:10:11

sort of homosexuality. You can't imagine a working class

1:10:13

person being like, oh yeah, sort

1:10:15

of good on him, because what's good on him, it's

1:10:17

like you like, this is just a preference, that's fine.

1:10:19

But the transformation, it's like, oh yeah, good on him,

1:10:21

it's like a transforming change across every sort of type

1:10:24

of person you can relate. So I think that's

1:10:26

why it's actually gained so much speed so quickly.

1:10:28

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you,

1:10:31

you mentioned earlier of you

1:10:33

could never, you can never

1:10:35

be a woman. A perfect. You

1:10:37

can never be a perfect woman. Yeah, I am a woman,

1:10:39

I've consumed myself a woman, but you've never been perfect. That's

1:10:42

what I was gonna ask, is it a case of the

1:10:45

genders remaining male and female,

1:10:47

or is it a strive

1:10:49

to add transgender

1:10:52

as a separate gender? And again, that's just

1:10:54

my, that's just, again, it's a place of

1:10:57

ignorance here, it's a genuine asking, not

1:10:59

a theory. Is it a look

1:11:01

and to be that there's a point in time where we

1:11:04

have men, transgender

1:11:06

men, women, and

1:11:08

transgender women, so for genders essentially, or

1:11:10

is it a case of wanting just

1:11:13

each area to be accepted as men and

1:11:16

as women? Exactly, that's it, it's, I

1:11:18

should hope that things wouldn't schism off further,

1:11:20

maybe even more so that they would just

1:11:22

all forge into one lovely amorphous blob. Yeah.

1:11:25

The thing with, yeah, when people

1:11:27

talk about a trans community, I don't

1:11:29

understand the process, the logic

1:11:32

there, because as a

1:11:34

woman, I want to integrate into the female

1:11:36

community, the human community, I don't wanna then cordon

1:11:38

myself off even more. I understand, yeah, if you

1:11:40

suffer, if there's people suffering and they need to

1:11:42

be spoken out for and you can have a

1:11:45

great transgender role model come forward and show themselves

1:11:47

to the world and say, this

1:11:49

is what I do, I'm contributing, I'm

1:11:51

trying to make myself a good person. I

1:11:54

don't wanna be in a trans community, I wanna be in

1:11:56

the female community with all the other lovely transgender people. I

1:11:58

can, can, can. completely get

1:12:01

that and there's something I had, I

1:12:03

didn't understand for a long time. I had a lot

1:12:05

of gay friends and I started

1:12:08

to get annoyed because they were only up

1:12:10

for going out to gay bars. It

1:12:12

was like, I'm up for that but I'm not

1:12:15

gay. And this is getting annoying now. Can we

1:12:17

sometimes just go to a bar and then whatever?

1:12:19

And it wasn't until years and years later

1:12:22

that I was interviewing a friend of mine for a

1:12:24

project I was trying to learn about sexuality and

1:12:26

it was a gay friend of mine. And

1:12:29

he just made the great point of the reason

1:12:31

he likes gay bars and the gay community and not

1:12:33

just gay bars. So he'll, again, he was saying he,

1:12:35

one of the first things he went to was

1:12:38

a gay book fair and I was like, what the

1:12:40

fuck is a gay book fair? And he was like,

1:12:42

it's the simple thing that he

1:12:44

felt comfortable holding his

1:12:47

boyfriend's hand and knowing no one

1:12:49

would be looking at him or if he wanted to kiss

1:12:52

his boyfriend on the head as he got up to go

1:12:54

to the toilet and things like that. And that's the bit

1:12:56

that hadn't crossed my mind because it's like even if you're

1:12:58

in a very liberal bar,

1:13:00

if it's not a gay bar, a few people are

1:13:02

going to glance over at that.

1:13:04

Even if they're not glancing and judging in any way.

1:13:06

I would. I would notice in a bar the

1:13:09

guys that are holding hand and I wouldn't be judging

1:13:12

it or against it in any way. But I would,

1:13:14

I know I would glance over and be, and it,

1:13:16

whereas if I'm in a gay bar, I

1:13:19

wouldn't be able to engage in a conversation if I'm

1:13:21

noticing every gay interaction that's going on. I mean, you

1:13:23

know, exactly. So yeah, it was

1:13:25

a fascinating thing there and it's kind of, it's

1:13:27

almost counter to what you are saying. And I

1:13:29

prefer, again, what my original thought was is, because

1:13:31

again, what you're saying there is an

1:13:34

ideal, an ideal, a world

1:13:37

and scenario where you're just mixing

1:13:40

with other women. And

1:13:43

again, I think my friends would

1:13:45

agree with that as well in

1:13:47

the gay communion

1:13:50

situation. But I also understand that need every now

1:13:52

and then to just have a

1:13:54

night off from having to think about people are going

1:13:56

to be looking or judging, just have a night off

1:13:58

and just go, right, I can just enjoy myself not

1:14:01

think about that. Those little tiny things now, because of

1:14:03

25 years for me

1:14:05

of nothing, are

1:14:08

such huge victories. If a

1:14:10

male friend of mine from college comes up and instead

1:14:12

of grasping me firmly for a handshake, gives me a

1:14:14

little kiss and a cheek, that's made my week. It's

1:14:17

just that acceptance that I was starved of, an

1:14:19

affection that I was starved of for 25 years.

1:14:22

Every little thing like that is a

1:14:24

huge victory. Makes such a difference. It's

1:14:26

so simple because it's stuff that you

1:14:29

do with everyone. There's a circuit in

1:14:31

the human brain that's a default heterosexualism

1:14:33

in the human brain that reacts differently to women and to men if

1:14:36

you're a male or a female. To be

1:14:38

able to transgress that is a real noble and heroic

1:14:40

thing in a person to bring yourself to be able

1:14:42

to do that. I'm impressed with guys that do that

1:14:44

very, very much so. Obviously, that's a bit of a

1:14:46

shock. You see, I'm nervous where I shook your hand

1:14:48

as I arrived. That's a business share, actually. That's

1:14:51

different. I was thinking this the other day. Where was

1:14:53

I? I was at a casting and

1:14:56

the girl who was doing the casting, it

1:14:59

turned into the weirdest thing because I went for

1:15:01

a handshake as she went for a kiss on

1:15:03

the cheek. I ended up holding her hand as

1:15:05

I kissed her cheek, which was suddenly far more

1:15:07

intimate and weird. I'm like, I'm holding

1:15:09

the kiss on the cheek. It's like, oh shit, what have I

1:15:11

done? It's interesting. Again,

1:15:13

it's great to hear things like that because,

1:15:16

again, all the more from people from

1:15:20

your past and that know you, I'm

1:15:22

sure, that those slight changes in

1:15:24

the intimacy and in the way

1:15:26

you'd be greeted must mean the

1:15:28

world. Because those are all little things. Again,

1:15:30

it's a human construct. These are

1:15:32

things that we've evolved over time. They're cultural. It doesn't

1:15:35

happen in every culture. You don't get kisses on the

1:15:37

cheek or whatever. Obviously, in some countries, the men will

1:15:39

ground hold their hands just if they're mates. But in

1:15:41

our culture, those things that indicate that you're interacting with

1:15:43

a woman to have that is

1:15:46

the best thing in the world. It surpasses

1:15:48

every single thing else. All the accolades and stuff,

1:15:50

as you can see, all these trophies around here.

1:15:52

We're just in a trophy room right now, basically.

1:15:55

There's nothing here. I think I've got one

1:15:58

somewhere. It's more important than anything.

1:16:00

a human interaction, you know? Yes.

1:16:03

So, it's beautiful. I mean, I feel that's a perfect

1:16:06

point to end our discussion on. I

1:16:09

agree. Obviously, I want to extend

1:16:11

it by adding where

1:16:13

can people follow you? You're

1:16:15

on Twitter? Like, what are you on Twitter or Facebook?

1:16:18

Yeah. Because I preferred Medium.

1:16:20

What's the best way to? facebook.com/tall dark friend

1:16:22

is my stage name. If you type that

1:16:24

into YouTube, I think it's like five music

1:16:26

videos now. Yeah. Yeah, I

1:16:28

haven't got a website. It was out of date,

1:16:30

so I'm still the wrong gender on my website.

1:16:32

That's how out of date it is. Brilliant. Brilliant.

1:16:35

So, that doesn't mean anything. So, don't go there.

1:16:37

I mean, this, I now feel I'll be remiss

1:16:39

to not mention that one of our main sponsors

1:16:42

is squarespace.com, which is how, the only reason they're

1:16:44

sponsors is because it's how I built my website

1:16:46

and they're a really good drag and drop. I'll

1:16:49

hook you up. I'll get you some discounts. I'll

1:16:51

put you in touch. Also,

1:16:54

what's ahead? You know, what's the

1:16:56

plan for the future? I don't know when this is

1:16:58

airing. This is going to be in probably two or

1:17:00

three weeks. It was going to be three weeks, but

1:17:02

I'm really excited about it. So, it might be two

1:17:05

weeks. I might move it forward. That's almost, I think

1:17:07

it's perfect. Begin in September. Yeah, well, 20th of September,

1:17:09

I'm playing a big old gig at the O2 Islington,

1:17:11

the big one. Oh, wow. And

1:17:14

it's an RCA thing. They scouted me a little

1:17:16

while back. Really awesome. Elvis Presley was an RCA,

1:17:18

so for my father, it's the best thing in

1:17:20

life. Man, that must mean the world. So, I've

1:17:22

assembled a band. First time in nine years. I'm

1:17:24

now a six piece group playing tunes from my

1:17:26

album. Amazing. And

1:17:29

that's a great venue there as well.

1:17:31

I love the O2 Islington Academy. Anyone

1:17:33

local to Thurrock, I play Lassie Gewana's

1:17:36

at Lakeside, third Thursday of every month.

1:17:39

And then just about, you know. That's perfect. Well,

1:17:42

thank you very, very much. It's been

1:17:44

a wonderful chat and I look forward

1:17:46

to catching you more in the future. Yeah, thank you

1:17:48

so much. Bye.