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would be pretty dull. So

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grab yourself a Mountain Dew and get that incomparable

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Zero Sugar. All Dew.

0:29

Welcome to Devils in the Dark

0:31

with me, Helen Anderson. And me, Dani

0:34

Howard. We're two best friends entering the world

0:36

of true crime. We'll be sharing the stories

0:38

of some of the worst and wildest true crime cases

0:40

in history, and we're taking you along

0:42

for the ride. In this episode,

0:45

we're looking at Issey Sagawa,

0:47

the Kobe

0:48

killer. How

0:59

are you, my darling?

1:04

I'm

1:07

so well, thank you for asking.

1:10

Oh, well, well, that's well, that's

1:12

great. Well, well, well, well,

1:14

do you know what? You arrived at mine

1:16

earlier with a bounce in your step, and I knew

1:18

that you were having a great time.

1:21

How are you today? I'm fucking buzzing.

1:23

I'm fucking

1:23

buzzing. Oh my God. I

1:25

am. All right,

1:26

Devo. I'm great. I'm

1:28

wonderful. Helen's off her face on caffeine.

1:31

Energy drinks. Oh, no, I'm fine. It's

1:33

just she's a 16 year old. I'm not.

1:36

It really. With your vape and your energy

1:38

drinks. Listen, listen, okay?

1:41

Caffeine is really good for people with ADHD. When

1:44

I went to the psychiatrist,

1:47

he told me to buy caffeine sweets,

1:50

which were like these things with super loads of caffeine,

1:52

but I don't want sweets. I just want to, so I buy

1:55

them in a drink form. And I don't get the

1:57

monster or Red Bull shite. I get some

1:59

like.

2:00

gym persons like equivalent,

2:02

do you know what I mean? Yeah, and prime

2:04

because you're not buying that anymore. Oh, not

2:06

buying that anymore. She's collecting the balls, she's putting them up in a

2:08

garage, I've seen it. Yeah, on a shelf. Yeah,

2:11

she's going to keep them and sell them for money.

2:14

No, I ain't buying the prime anymore. It's

2:16

good because it's a stimulant, yeah, right?

2:19

Caffeine's a stimulant. And when you've got a really

2:21

busy brain, that's going, the whole time,

2:23

I describe it as like Pac-Man.

2:26

I think I've explained this before to you, but imagine

2:29

it's just, it gives just ADHD something

2:31

to do when there's something there that's stimulating.

2:34

So you feel a little bit more calm and focused,

2:36

but also just like on it at the same time. It's

2:39

weird, but it feels good. When I think of your brain,

2:41

I

2:41

love sending, I love falling into Instagram

2:44

holes and I always see reels and I'm like, Helen,

2:46

this is your brain. Because

2:48

it'll be like people running around like,

2:51

like with fun music or whatever. Or like that lady

2:53

that is like, I remember when, and

2:55

then she does the fart.

2:57

I love my mom. I

3:00

love my mom. I

3:03

love her favourite one.

3:07

That's my favourite one.

3:12

But that doesn't translate well on a

3:14

podcast, I realise. I always think of your

3:16

brain. I describe myself quite

3:19

often in the evenings when I'm alone and all

3:21

I have is the need to snack. Like

3:23

Kirby, a little pink guy going, yeah, I love

3:25

Kirby. He's a legend. But I always feel

3:27

like your brain and I always think of your brain being like,

3:30

caffeine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:33

Like Nunu off the Teletubbies. Yeah,

3:36

that is me. I am Nunu.

3:38

You are Nunu. The caffeinated beverages.

3:40

Yeah, I love it. It makes me like, I get a

3:42

lot of like, almost like, oh, yeah,

3:45

it's great times. My little Nunu brain. My little

3:47

Nunu brain. We have announcements

3:49

to make, but we're going to make it. It's a very important one,

3:51

actually. We are going to make it at the end

3:53

of the podcast. So you have to stick by and listen

3:55

to us now. Ha, ha, ha. How's

3:58

that? For a cliffhanger.

3:59

tell you the business so do I have

4:02

any stories to tell you oh I got back from

4:04

Austin Texas yeah trip and

4:06

this time I'm disappointed why because

4:09

I can't remember what trip he was on

4:11

when you went to the Bourbon factory oh

4:14

in

4:14

Bourbon yeah

4:21

next the custard cream factory

4:25

see I'm I know how to say

4:27

it now yeah custom to the

4:29

ball then bourbon Helen's learned all

4:31

the words no but that was

4:33

good fun I have severely

4:35

burnt my bottom she has oh

4:38

my goodness so I

4:40

wore skimpy bikini

4:43

bottoms for the first time ever normally

4:45

it's like a full covered high waist jobby

4:48

but I had these new ones I

4:50

didn't realize they were skimpy as they were I think

4:53

I just had a wedgie to be fair and I was laid on my front

4:55

for a bit just on my phone because I was obviously doing

4:57

travel content for brand USA and I

4:59

was just doing a little bit of work on my phone laid

5:01

on my front at a place called Barton Springs which is the most

5:04

beautiful like natural Springs swimming place

5:06

anyway 40 degree heat

5:09

I didn't feel hot because I'd been in the water oh

5:11

it's the biggest rookie fucking error I could

5:13

ever make yeah right for someone first

5:15

day in the sun right and then for someone there's

5:17

always banging on about right SPF on

5:20

your face well I don't SPF

5:22

my ass and I and I went back to the

5:24

hotel went to went in the pool met some friend

5:26

made some friends and then I got out of the pool

5:28

to go to the bar and the front

5:30

one of the blokes that we made friends with was like core

5:33

your ass I mean obviously

5:35

that's gonna be the response or your

5:38

I know he was English he was a geezer

5:40

he was the only English person that we met and but

5:42

no and I went what and then Marika went oh

5:44

I went war and I'm up your bum and I looked

5:46

in the mirror because I went to the end up against the twitch look and it was

5:49

it was like Mars it

5:51

was just illuminating red so I

5:53

went round Helen's

5:53

the other night and she just went and flashed

5:56

me which

5:58

obviously I'm quite used to now yes Yes, yes. And

6:00

that was the reddest I've ever seen it be. Yes.

6:03

Normally it's like a peachy moon.

6:06

Peachy moon. Creamy and

6:08

the... Creamy and white. Oh! Oh,

6:11

stop. Never ever described

6:13

it as the creamy and white. I said it and

6:15

I was like, yuck! This is great! You

6:20

go, Scorsette. I was trying to build you up

6:22

and it just made it weird. Yeah. Oh,

6:24

God. Yeah, Helen is so creamy. I mean, I don't

6:26

have anything to bring

6:27

to the podcast either, so I'm just like, oh,

6:29

God. And like, well, shall we just crack on

6:32

with it? OK, right.

6:34

So here we go. We're going to get into it.

6:37

So it's a warm evening in Paris,

6:39

June 1981, on

6:42

the banks of the lake of

6:44

Bois de Boulogne. A man. Did

6:47

you like that? Yeah. Thank you. And a

6:49

man is having a walk when

6:51

he spots a suitcase floating in the

6:53

water. He

6:55

starts to open the bag and he

6:57

spots a man walking away and he asks

6:59

if it belongs to him. And he responds

7:01

with no. So he

7:03

continues to open this bag

7:06

and what he finds is the

7:08

dismembered body parts of a young

7:10

student, Renee Hartveld.

7:13

He lets out a scream. By this point, the

7:16

passerby had disappeared.

7:18

Wow. What he doesn't realise is

7:21

that he just almost caught

7:23

Izzie Segeur, the Kobe Killer.

7:26

Wow. Why

7:28

would you open the bag?

7:30

Well, he's just like, see the suitcase on the floor

7:32

and you're like, what's in here? Yeah, but no.

7:35

I'd look at it and be like, that's the bag there.

7:38

Who's opening the bag? He's interested.

7:40

He wants to see. He's like, oh, someone's left a bloody suitcase

7:42

here. I better open it and see what's inside of it. My

7:45

brain is immediately going bomb. Yeah.

7:47

Don't touch that. After this story, it's

7:49

probably some dismembered body parts

7:51

in there. Who's opening the bag,

7:53

though? Let us know. Are you going to open the bag? I'm

7:56

not opening the bag. Are

7:57

you opening the bag? Mm. No.

7:59

I mean, I have to get my feet wet to get, you know,

8:02

you'd have to get wet to get. In the river. So

8:04

in the lake. Yeah, no. By

8:06

the banks. Like fair enough.

8:08

You're sat there. Okay, you're sat on a bench

8:11

and a suitcase appears. But next

8:13

to you on the bench. Yeah.

8:15

It just appears. Like with a genie. Yeah, I'd

8:17

open that. I'd be like, this is meant for me. Yeah.

8:20

Yeah. You're opening that. I'm

8:22

opening that one. If it just appears of puffer smoke,

8:25

and it'll plop

8:26

like a little, I'll write the wrong one. That

8:29

one. That one. Okay.

8:32

I'm opening it. Yeah, to be fair. So am

8:34

I. All right. If you are sat on a bench,

8:36

and then you just notice out of the corner of your

8:38

eye, there's a suitcase there, or

8:40

there's a bag there. I'm not opening that. I'm

8:42

not opening that. I don't want to open that. I might watch it

8:44

for a bit. There could be dirty knickers in there. Well, there probably isn't.

8:47

Yeah, no, thanks. Somebody needs to question this

8:49

man. Why did you open the bag, mate? That means

8:51

good job he did, but why? Well,

8:53

it's a good job he did. So let's get into

8:55

the story. Sorry. That's all right.

8:58

Was born on April 26, 1949 in Kobe, Japan.

9:03

And he was born premature. At the

9:05

time they didn't know he was going to survive, as

9:08

he had quite a few complications and health

9:10

problems. He was so small

9:13

when he was born, he fit into the palm of his

9:15

dad's hand. Tiny,

9:17

tiny, tiny baby. And

9:20

he suffered like a few illnesses when he was a child.

9:23

He wasn't a well boy. And due

9:25

to the medication

9:28

that they gave him, and also being

9:30

premature, he was a very

9:32

small and frail child,

9:35

which led him to be quite introverted.

9:37

Cause you know, the other kids are almost like,

9:39

ugh, you're a bit weird. You're very

9:42

small. You know, you're a bit weird. What

9:45

a tiny child you are. Yeah, so

9:47

he was quite introverted and he's

9:49

had many friends. So he threw himself

9:51

into literature. Later on in life, he

9:53

got a master's degree in English literature.

9:56

He had a good upbringing though. He

9:58

had wealthy parents.

9:59

who are very very loving and

10:02

he talks about his childhood as the best

10:04

time of his life, which We

10:06

usually have the opposite in a lot of these cases

10:08

don't we they have yeah But

10:12

yeah his his parents are very wealthy and his dad Was

10:15

like some big old bus man,

10:17

you know of some company like the president

10:20

or some water company or something like that But he did

10:22

he did good They did and he talks

10:24

about how he they were they

10:26

were always in nature in the countryside and I was outside

10:29

doing things And it was just a really nice time

10:32

Interestingly though his uncle

10:34

would play a game with Icy and

10:36

his siblings where he would chase the kids around

10:39

Pretending to be a big

10:41

child eating monster, right? And

10:44

he would lower them over

10:45

the block a boiling pot like you

10:47

know just above it and the dad

10:50

would join in on the game and Be

10:52

the hero and rescue them. So it was just like a silly

10:54

game that he would pay with the kids, right? I

10:56

mean my dad used

10:58

to

10:59

pick me up and put me over the edge of a cliff or

11:01

appear and sort of pretend to drop me right

11:05

Yeah, that's it's slightly more concerning

11:07

but I just used to drag

11:10

me off Literally remember

11:12

being off the side of bloody chrome appear once

11:14

like and he would hold me above the water and then just like sort

11:16

of drop Me a little bit. You're not a big fan of

11:18

heights actually No I'm not! But

11:22

I think I turned out alright, you know

11:24

apart from a slight fear of looking

11:26

over the edge of things I'm alright on a plane

11:28

though.

11:29

Anyway Icy loved

11:31

this game He found it terrifying

11:34

yet thrilling and

11:35

it sparked a fascination with fairy

11:38

tales Especially where

11:41

people get eaten. So think of like Hansel

11:43

and Gretel, you

11:44

know dragons eating people Like any

11:46

sort of story where someone's getting eaten.

11:49

He as a kid,

11:50

he loved that. Okay interesting now I'm

11:52

thinking about it. So I'm on this journey with Sylvie about

11:55

you know, like I'm now sort of finding the fairy

11:57

tales again and the nursery

11:59

rhymes They're

12:00

all fucking dark some of these

12:02

why is that children's rhyme? What's

12:04

the one where I'm gonna grind your bones into

12:07

dust Yeah, Jack and the beanstalk

12:10

Terrifying why are we telling that to children?

12:12

Yeah, I think you should still because we turned

12:14

out okay, Danny Did we I feel

12:17

like I feel cool.

12:18

I'm cool We

12:23

talk quite regularly about how much therapy Yeah,

12:26

like

12:29

little red riding hood yeah, I mean she

12:32

literally cut her grandmother out of the

12:34

wolf stomach Yeah,

12:36

or the wolf the wolf dresses

12:38

up as a has heard the wolf eats Yeah

12:44

My god

12:45

Yeah, and then you've got Hansel

12:47

and Gretel the witch is gonna cook them in the oven

12:49

Yeah, and then she gets put in the oven

12:51

instead. Yeah, which pie which pie? They

12:54

are pretty bad. Yeah, it's like don't don't don't

12:57

show a silver. She needs she needs

12:59

Well, I don't know the shit the story Am

13:04

I gonna feel scared she gonna turn you into yeah,

13:06

okay. Okay. Okay Before we go

13:08

any further we need to talk to you about

13:11

the sponsor of today's episode

13:13

Better help that's right. This episode

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is brought to you by better help online therapy

13:18

Trusting yourself to make decisions that align with

13:21

your values is like anything the more you

13:23

practice it the easier it gets Sometimes

13:25

in life we are faced with tough

13:27

choices and the path forward isn't

13:30

always clear I find that

13:32

sometimes it takes

13:35

a different perspective

13:37

To give you some clear thoughts because you should

13:39

talk to your friends and your family about stuff

13:41

that's going on in your life Yeah,

13:43

I think you know, they're biased aren't they exactly

13:46

I think sometimes just having that unbiased

13:50

Unfiltered opinion and they're

13:52

also gonna have like a personal input

13:54

like what they think is best for you because

13:56

they know you But sometimes people

13:58

want you to do

13:59

what they want you to do. Do you know what I mean?

14:02

Whereas a therapist wants you to do

14:04

stuff that's for you. Yeah, I

14:06

think therapy is one time where you can

14:08

really, for me, it's one time

14:11

where I can really trust someone who's not

14:13

just going to say what I want to hear, but

14:15

whatever they do say is going to be for

14:18

my best interest. And I think that's something

14:20

like I struggle with generally, you

14:22

know, like intrusive thoughts, like I've got

14:24

this big decision to make, I'm going to ask for someone's opinion.

14:26

Oh, they're probably just saying that anyway, because they just want

14:28

to shut me up. Or they just want to like, yeah,

14:31

but at least I think with therapy that person is there for

14:33

you and only for you. Exactly. You know,

14:36

that's their job. It is.

14:39

It's to not just tell you what you want to hear, but to

14:41

tell you what's actually going to benefit you the most. Exactly.

14:43

And sometimes we all need just that little bit of extra

14:46

help. And I think it's you don't have to wait

14:48

until you're at crisis point, you're

14:50

boiling over, your brain is like going to explode.

14:53

Sometimes it's definitely

14:55

better to wait, get there before you get to that point.

14:57

Things don't have to be that bad. It was like brain

14:59

maintenance.

15:01

Yeah. Like if your car

15:03

was stalling, you wouldn't wait to go to

15:05

the mechanic. You'd sort

15:07

it out there and then. Yeah. And

15:10

you should do that with your brain. Yeah.

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H E L P

15:46

dot com slash DITD. Right.

15:48

Now let's get back to the podcast. Back

15:52

then, sex was a massive taboo

15:54

subject. Like they just did not talk

15:56

about sex. He recalls not

15:58

even hearing his parents say that.

15:59

the word. So, you know,

16:02

the birds and the bees chat is out the fucking

16:04

window. Like, you just don't talk about it. Don't know what

16:06

it is. He didn't understand

16:09

really what relieving himself

16:12

sexually

16:13

was. So when he first experienced an erection,

16:16

he thought he was unwell. Oh no. So

16:19

to relieve himself,

16:20

he got his dog to... I mean,

16:23

that's weird. Lick down there. Yeah.

16:25

That's weird anyway. Yeah, it is. Regardless

16:27

of whether you know what's going on or not. Yeah.

16:30

What? Yeah.

16:33

That's weird. I know. That's an odd, that's

16:35

just an odd reaction to any situation.

16:37

I'm unwell. I'm going to get my dog to lick it.

16:39

Yeah. I've cut my arm. I'll get the dog

16:41

to lick it. I've got a headache. I'll get the

16:43

dog to lick it. Well, obviously, because they didn't

16:45

have the chat. They didn't have the chat like, you

16:48

know, if you have an erection, don't let your

16:50

dog lick it. Yeah.

16:53

He obviously sort of distorted his

16:56

understanding of sex and sexual desires,

16:58

like, because he didn't understand what this

17:01

was.

17:03

Yeah, but boy, his basic instinct isn't

17:05

even to get an animal to lick it. No, I know.

17:07

But like how many girls, I feel like how many girls

17:10

didn't know what their period was and were like, fuck,

17:12

I'm dying. Right.

17:14

And how many of them were like, dog

17:17

could probably... No. I mean,

17:19

no. No. I know. I

17:22

know. I'm troubled by this. Yeah. I

17:25

was. I was like, I don't put the two together. Good

17:27

lord. Yeah. So Izzie

17:29

started having cannibalistic thoughts in

17:32

the first grade.

17:33

What? Yeah. So he

17:35

would have been about seven years old. Fuck. Yeah.

17:37

This was from looking at a

17:39

young boy's thighs and

17:42

it sort of stirred up these thoughts of like,

17:45

I wonder what it's like to bite them. Like,

17:47

I want to sink my teeth into them. They look

17:50

juicy, you know? Oh, that makes me want

17:52

to vomit. I know. And I throat

17:54

a bit. And his desires then shifted towards women. So

17:57

from obviously

17:59

my understanding. And then this is,

18:01

and he was probably

18:03

perhaps unaware or uneducated

18:05

on how to relieve his sexual desires. Somehow

18:08

this turned into a lust for

18:10

flesh. They correlate, they would sort of

18:13

became together.

18:14

In cartoons

18:17

when you're really, really hungry

18:19

and you look at a bin and

18:21

it turns into a burger. Yeah.

18:24

And then- A mirage. Yeah, and then reality

18:27

comes around and the

18:30

cartoon cat or whatever is chewing on

18:32

a bin. Or you look at

18:34

like a, yeah, you look at something

18:36

long and it turns into a hot dog. Yeah. Instead

18:38

of feeling hungry, he's

18:41

feeling horny and looking

18:43

at a- The flesh.

18:44

A lady and

18:45

seeing a big

18:47

chicken leg. Yeah. Yeah.

18:50

So his, the

18:52

wires across here, like his sexual

18:54

desire is lust for flesh. I

18:56

wonder if there's actual like brain

18:59

chemistry that has gone awry

19:01

here. Yeah.

19:03

Like development. Cause

19:05

you know, I've sort of spoken about this before where there's this

19:07

sort of research into pedophiles have

19:10

the maternal and sexual parts

19:12

of their brain. The wires are like physically

19:14

crossed. Yeah. Parental instinct. I

19:16

wonder if that is there

19:19

any science behind that? I

19:21

think that he obviously had an interest.

19:25

Like he obviously had this sort of liking

19:28

towards the idea of eating people because when

19:30

he was a kid, fairy tales and

19:32

playing that game of his uncle. And then because

19:34

that obviously brought

19:35

him joy, perhaps, you

19:37

know, that embedded itself into the sexual

19:40

side of his brain. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

19:42

It's just an odd, cause

19:44

like we've all heard those stories

19:47

and I've never eaten a person. No.

19:49

As far as I know, never eaten a person.

19:53

Always wonder sometimes, don't you? You've

19:55

gone to that restaurant. Like, yeah. You

19:58

never know. This desire

20:01

for flesh only grew, as it always

20:03

does. These

20:06

are urges. And at the age of 24, while attending

20:09

Waco University in Tokyo,

20:11

Waco University in Tokyo, Sagawa

20:14

followed a woman home and

20:16

broke into her apartment while she was sleeping.

20:19

So his intention was to slice

20:21

off a part of her bum. Fuck

20:24

sake. He just wanted a bit of her bum. He should

20:26

have gone for yours, it was already cooked. Ha ha

20:28

ha! Clapping

20:31

Please! Well done! That

20:33

bum joke! Grrr! And there's

20:35

plenty to go round. Hello. So he snuck

20:37

into her apartment. You're on fire today,

20:39

by the way. So

20:42

he snuck into her apartment and

20:45

he was quite nervous about, at the

20:47

time. Good! About, he

20:49

didn't know what he was doing. He was trying to find

20:51

something to knock her over the head with so he could knock

20:53

her out and cut a bit of a bum off.

20:55

He was looking around and he

20:57

was probably unaware of her surroundings. He was leaning

21:00

over at the time and he obviously nudged

21:02

into him and she woke up screaming

21:05

and like shit all kicked off and

21:08

he was arrested. Good! But it was

21:11

for attempted rape. So he didn't

21:13

deny it. He didn't obviously say no

21:15

actually I was in there to cut a bit of her ass off because I'm a

21:17

cannibal. I wanted to eat her. Yeah. His

21:20

charges were dropped after his father dropped the charges.

21:23

No, he paid him off. So

21:26

he

21:27

paid him off because he's a rich man. Powerful

21:29

man. I wonder, like so

21:32

he got arrested for potential

21:34

rape. Right.

21:36

Yeah. Is there a

21:38

crime for intended cannibal?

21:42

I have no idea but I think he just didn't want them

21:44

to know. It would be assault. Because it would sound insane

21:47

as well. Yeah, it would at least be like battery

21:49

or something wouldn't it? Cutting somebody's bum

21:51

off. Yeah.

21:52

In 1977 at

21:55

the age of 27, he moved to Paris

21:57

to pursue a PhD in Literature at

21:59

the Sorbonne.

21:59

During his time in Paris, he

22:02

would spend a lot of time with women, especially

22:04

sex workers, and he would often try, he'd obviously

22:07

invite him back to his, and he would try

22:09

and shoot them whilst they were unaware. He

22:11

would try and shoot. Yeah, but he'd

22:14

chicken out, he'd freeze up, he wouldn't do it. Oh yeah, well you

22:16

were going to say he was a bad aim. No,

22:18

like, yeah. But he just, you

22:21

know, any real thing for Western women.

22:24

He liked how pale they were, and he says

22:26

that his favourite time of year was June because it was

22:28

the hottest time of year in Paris, and that's

22:30

when women would have their legs on,

22:32

arms on show because he just loved really pale,

22:35

milky thighs. He just wanted

22:37

to sink his teeth into

22:38

them. Yeah, so he'd

22:40

spend a lot of time with these women, hoping,

22:43

finding them just delicious-looking.

22:46

However, on 11th of June 1981, Sir Gower,

22:48

then 32, invited his subborn classmate, Renee

22:50

Hartveld,

22:55

a Dutch woman to dinner, his apartment,

22:58

so he made out that it was just for

23:00

doing homework,

23:01

for her to help him with an

23:03

assignment. But

23:05

when she was facing the desk with her back

23:08

towards him, he came from behind

23:10

and

23:10

he shot her in the head. Fucking

23:12

hell. He first

23:15

undressed and raped her. Well,

23:17

he had sex with her body. He

23:20

then continued to finally live out

23:22

his fantasies, so he started

23:25

by trying to bite her in the bum cheek. He

23:27

said that he went for the right cheek as the left was

23:29

closer to the heart, and he wasn't like blood.

23:32

What

23:32

is... You fucking what? You

23:35

just shot her in the head, mate. That's really bloody.

23:37

Yeah. Eh? Right.

23:40

But his teeth weren't sharp enough to bite through,

23:42

so he used a fruit knife.

23:44

That wasn't sharp enough, so he had to go down

23:46

to the market to buy a meat carving knife, and

23:48

there he began to cut open her flesh.

23:51

So he first recalls that it was a yellow

23:53

corn-like substance, which was fat. So

23:56

he had to cut deep to finally get down to

23:58

the flesh.

24:00

So he quotes, the first

24:03

thing I did was cut into a buttock.

24:05

No matter how deep I cut, all I saw

24:08

was the fat beneath the skin. It looked like

24:10

corn. It took a while to actually reach the

24:12

red meat. So gala recalls.

24:15

I actually

24:17

can't. Yeah. Well, you know, when I was- I've shot

24:20

my eyes. Yeah. Well, I was watching

24:22

the documentary. It was at this bit when I was

24:24

eating my stir-fry. And they actually, you

24:26

can watch the Vice interview with him on Netflix.

24:29

And they show the images from

24:32

the crime scene. You see all the deets. And

24:34

I was like, oh, I was not prepared for this. It

24:37

was horrid. I'm having a hard time. Yeah,

24:39

it's nasty. So he consumed

24:41

various parts of her body, eating most

24:44

of her breasts, face,

24:45

buttocks, feet and

24:47

thighs.

24:49

He then- He ate her feet. There's

24:51

not even any meat on them. I

24:56

watched my grandmam suck the meat off a chicken foot once.

24:58

Oh, my God. You wouldn't think

25:01

that there's

25:01

much meat on a chicken foot. Well,

25:03

I don't think I still to this day. She couldn't eat a foot.

25:06

You just know it's a foot. Well, yeah. And like

25:08

the chicken foot, it's like- like

25:10

Caribbean, they don't waste anything. You put everything in the neck,

25:13

the feet, stew, chicken

25:15

and the foot are all like clawed

25:17

up. And I still- that just flashes in my brain

25:19

every now and again. Oh, funny how that happens,

25:21

isn't it? Grandmam eating a chicken foot. A

25:23

human foot. I know. He also

25:26

said that he swallowed her clitoris

25:28

because she was on her period. He didn't

25:31

like- He said

25:31

he didn't like the blood! Yeah, he doesn't like

25:33

the smell of menstrual blood, so he just swallowed it whole.

25:36

What? I know. What? Right.

25:40

I bet it went down quick, though, because it's smooth,

25:43

innit? It's small and smooth. I

25:45

mean, at least he found it. Yeah.

25:47

Hey! Oh,

25:49

God. That was very poor

25:51

taste. That was great though.

25:53

No, come on. Yeah. Right, I've

25:56

taken a- there's a lot of issues here. There's

25:58

a lot of issues. He says he doesn't like-

25:59

blood. It shoots her in the head. I mean, there's no

26:02

way for him to know she's on her period before

26:04

he kills her, but he could have probably just dropped

26:06

it into conversation if he's that intent on like,

26:08

I don't like, I don't like the smell of menstrual

26:11

blood. It smells the same. Everyone's

26:13

like, ehh period blood. My mum once

26:15

told me it's the cleanest blood that you, you

26:18

know, that will come out of you in theory because

26:20

it's supposed to nourish a fetus.

26:23

So, you know, cool. It

26:25

probably doesn't smell the same. I don't know. I don't really smell my

26:27

own blood. Realistically, if there's that much blood

26:29

from everywhere, he's already cutting all their bits off.

26:31

You're not going to be able to tell the difference,

26:33

is he? Get over yourself. Right?

26:36

So, fuck off with that. You've done

26:38

it now, innit? There's blood everywhere. Literally,

26:41

you've done this the bloodiest way possible.

26:44

If you just keep saying you don't like blood,

26:46

you'd either have suffocated her first

26:49

or you'd have suffered, you'd have done something that wasn't bloody. You've

26:51

shot her in the head. There's bits of skull and brain everywhere,

26:54

right? Heads bleed loads, loads of blood everywhere.

26:57

You're cutting her feet off. You're eating bits of her

26:59

bum. You've eaten bits of her thighs. Artery

27:01

there. There's going to be blood everywhere,

27:03

right? But yet you swallowed her clitoris

27:05

whole because you didn't like the smell

27:08

of menstrual blood. Fuck off, mate.

27:10

You can't tell the difference. You're a prick.

27:13

I don't know where that came from. Yeah, sorry about

27:15

that. A little bit,

27:17

a little bit of feminist rage out there. Yeah, like,

27:19

don't fuck off. Fuck off. Like, the whole

27:21

thing is fucking, like,

27:23

terrible. But don't, like, just

27:25

the, that bit just feels like an extra

27:27

demeaning little bit. Like, oh, I swallowed her

27:29

clitoris whole because I don't like the smell of menstrual blood

27:31

because periods of day. Fuck off.

27:33

Yeah, yeah, I feel, I think, yeah. That's

27:36

what I felt when I read that quote from

27:38

him. Yeah.

27:39

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27:41

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27:43

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28:41

So, he put the rest of the body

28:43

in the fridge.

28:44

After he'd done that. Oh good. And then ultimately,

28:46

he said his only regret was that he hadn't eaten

28:48

her while she was alive. Oh

28:51

dear. It gets worse. Since the

28:53

parts of her body that he didn't consume started to decompose,

28:56

he put them in a couple of suitcases and called a

28:58

cab. The taxi was said to comment on how

29:00

heavy the bags were and said, have

29:02

you got a body in here? That's a joke.

29:05

Oh god. I

29:06

know. Yes, Renee. He said it

29:08

was books. So, he took them down

29:10

to the... De Boulon? Boulon?

29:14

Which

29:14

was a park slash lake.

29:16

And he made the mistake however, he's a bit of an idiot.

29:19

He made the mistake of going on a sort of

29:21

light outside, forgetting that at 8pm

29:23

it's still light that time of year. Right.

29:26

Because there were still people out and about, you know, chilling and

29:28

having a picnic, having a lovely

29:30

time in the sunset in Paris.

29:33

So, he walked to find a quiet spot where he started

29:35

to push the cases into the water. And

29:38

as he started to walk away, he heard a yell and

29:40

he turned to see a man opening the cases and the man was

29:42

like, are these yours? And he seemed to

29:44

think that if he said yes, he wouldn't have opened

29:46

them up anymore. But you know, instinctually,

29:49

he just went no straight away. So,

29:51

if he said, are these yours? He might have gone, oh, alright,

29:53

I'll leave him. But he said no. So, he'd be like, oh,

29:55

I wonder what's in here then? So he opened them up

29:58

and that's where he finds the...

29:59

remains of René. So he's this

30:02

man, let out a big whale and he

30:04

keeps walking off.

30:05

But Issy was arrested four

30:07

days later. And this is where it

30:09

gets wild, okay? And it's not already

30:12

wild? Yeah, you're not gonna believe

30:14

this. Issy Sagawa awaited

30:16

his trial for two years at a French prison

30:19

when it was finally time for him to be tried.

30:22

The French judge Jean-Louis

30:25

Bruguet declared him

30:27

legally insane and unfit to

30:29

stand trial, dropping the charges

30:31

and ordering to him to be held indefinitely

30:34

in a mental institution, right? Yeah,

30:36

well, we already know... However, the

30:39

French people, the French public

30:41

didn't want to pay for this. They didn't want to put up

30:43

this guy, this Japanese man that

30:45

was a cannibal out of their own pocket.

30:48

So they deported him back to Japan

30:50

and he was set free. You

30:53

are fucking joking. No.

30:56

That, because I can kind of see the insanity,

30:59

because it's weird, isn't it? He obviously

31:01

planned it to it. There was some kind of forethought

31:04

because he already had the gun. You don't just

31:06

have a gun in Europe. Like

31:10

it's, you know, America, people

31:12

are born with him, aren't they? You just have

31:14

a baby, it's given its first gun and you

31:16

all just love

31:17

guns. You all just love guns. I

31:20

know you don't all love guns, I'm being sarcastic,

31:22

but there's a lot of gun love. It's scary.

31:25

In Europe, you don't just have

31:28

a gun. No. So he's

31:30

obviously gone to some level of

31:33

preparation. I'm going to shoot someone.

31:35

You said he tried multiple times and chickened

31:37

out. I mean, that's a weird one in itself as

31:40

well. We've never really heard that. Like some failed

31:42

attempts, he got

31:43

caught or like, you know, she fought back

31:45

or something like that, but to just be like, Oh no, I can't.

31:48

Yeah. We don't really hear of that. But then

31:50

it's like, he just got so caught up in there.

31:53

I'm going to shoot her in the head and I'm finally going to get to eat.

31:55

I think my teeth are flat. Some flesh. Sighs

31:57

or whatever. I forgot about any of the other details.

31:59

Oh, I don't know.

31:59

I don't like blood, but I've done this really bloodily. Oh,

32:02

somebody's gonna handle the bags. Oh, whoops,

32:04

it's light outside. Like, none

32:07

of that makes sense. Yeah, I think he was just

32:09

a bit of a fool. Just a bit of an idiot.

32:12

Yeah, but he's studying a master's

32:14

in literature. I know, but like- You've got to have a certain

32:16

amount of brain capacity to be able to do that. Yeah,

32:18

but he don't have any fucking common sense. Yes. You

32:21

could be the sharpest tool in the bloody knife

32:23

drawer, but it doesn't mean you've got common sense. He sounds

32:25

like he just, he's a bit of an, he just sounds

32:27

a bit- Like it's stupid. Like air-heady.

32:30

Oh, whoops, it's light outside. But I think also- So

32:32

I can kind of understand, I can almost understand, because when

32:35

you put all of those things together, it

32:37

doesn't, we talked about like Ruth, Ruth

32:39

Ellis, somebody messaged me

32:40

like she obviously had battered women's syndrome, and I don't

32:42

think she did, because she planned it. Like she

32:45

went away, she learned how to shoot a gun. She

32:47

got dropped off as his house. There was premeditation

32:50

there. It's still a crime of passion. I'm not taking

32:52

that away from it. Like she was furious and she decided

32:54

that he had to die, but she premeditated

32:57

committing that. He's premeditated

32:59

this to an extent. Yeah, because he's-

33:02

But he's so scattered. Yeah. Like,

33:04

so yeah, I can, I think I can kind

33:06

of understand, okay, this man is obviously

33:08

insane, like to a degree. So he,

33:11

but the point is, he

33:12

got sent back to Japan. He did get put

33:14

in a mental institution for like

33:17

a very, very short period of time, but because

33:19

the crime happened in Paris, and it was

33:21

something to do with the legal documents or whatever, Japan

33:24

just weren't that interested in it. So he

33:26

just was let go. How odd. So

33:28

you've got this guy. Despicable.

33:31

This man that's got these urges, like

33:33

cannibal. He's just killed someone and eaten

33:35

them. It's walking free. He's just

33:37

walking around. That is so frightening. Yeah. I

33:40

think it gets like,

33:41

obviously the worst has happened. He's killed someone.

33:44

He's eaten them. Poor, you know,

33:46

poor woman has been, has been,

33:48

you know, mutilated,

33:50

right? Yeah.

33:53

But then, but then it gets worse because the response

33:55

that he got in Japan was quite the

33:57

opposite of France. And he actually.

34:00

became a cultural celeb

34:03

and he was called by various publications

34:06

to ask to write for them. To

34:09

write what? A recipe column? I am fucking

34:11

joking. The first being a magazine

34:14

called Murder in Mind to write an

34:16

article about his murder

34:18

and he got paid good for that. He

34:20

said at the time Japan was in like an economic

34:23

bubble, it's what he says in the documentary

34:25

and they would put 10s, 20k's on the table. Here

34:30

you go, write for us.

34:32

And following that it just

34:34

drew more attention to him and

34:36

more work came his way. So he wrote books.

34:39

He wrote books with pics of

34:41

Renee and the gory crime scene. So not

34:44

only did she die in a most horrific

34:46

way but her murder

34:49

and her death and her face were just published in all

34:51

these books like it was a spectacle. So all the

34:53

crime scene photos, all of the pictures

34:55

that the police took, all the pictures of her dismembered

34:57

body, all her body parts on plates,

35:00

her face, like the most gory photos

35:02

you've ever seen were just in these books that

35:04

he wrote. For entertainment. For people's

35:07

morbid fascination or entertainment. That's

35:09

disgusting that he was profiting off that

35:11

as well. Her poor family. I know. Comic

35:13

books were written with sort

35:16

of like manga style illustrations. He

35:18

did guest speaking. He appeared

35:21

in a variety of movies and documentaries.

35:24

There are even a couple songs written about him. La

35:26

Follie was a song by the Stranglers.

35:28

They wrote a song inspired by Sagawa's story

35:31

and Too Much

35:32

Blood by the Rolling Stones also.

35:34

Well, they're not like, they don't think it's a good thing,

35:36

but people sang about

35:38

him. He was also in a weird

35:41

porno, which was like a reality

35:43

show where a woman shared a house of

35:46

him for 24 hours. And after they

35:48

have sex,

35:50

he then tells her that he's a cannibal

35:52

and what he did.

35:54

And you see her real life reaction

35:56

of like,

35:57

what the fuck? And then he tells her what

35:59

he wants to do.

35:59

to do with her and it's all being filmed. He talks about how

36:02

he wants to drink her urine, like how

36:05

he wants to eat her or all this sort of

36:07

shit. This is after they've had sex

36:09

and she's absolutely fucking horrified. And this is like

36:11

a Japanese reality show, like porno

36:14

reality show. What the actual

36:16

fuck? Yeah. What

36:19

the fuck? Also those

36:21

fucking producers, they are definitely

36:23

hoping that he kills her. I'm sorry.

36:25

There is no way they put that

36:28

woman in that situation without

36:30

her knowledge. So therefore, could she

36:32

actually have fully consented to

36:35

what was about to happen to her? There is no

36:38

way they did not discuss the fact

36:40

that he just goes off the rails and is like,

36:42

yeah, and just kills her right there and then. They

36:44

ain't gonna be able to get there in time. Then what they're

36:47

gonna do, that's if

36:48

they exactly- Oh, there was a camera crew there. Yeah. From

36:50

the whole thing. Yeah, but what they're gonna do, by the time he's like

36:53

bit into her throat and ripped out. It's

36:55

done. But, you know, so we- They knew,

36:58

they knew what they were doing. That's

37:00

like putting a lion in a cage

37:02

with a sleeping baby. Yeah. Right?

37:06

I don't think he's a lion because I just, you know.

37:08

But a lot of the other

37:10

like documentaries were, some of them

37:12

were very strange. Like some of

37:14

them would, because he was obviously a short guy

37:16

and

37:17

like frail, some of them made him

37:19

do like humiliating stuff, like did put fitness

37:21

tests on him and they were kind of mocking him a

37:23

bit. Like it was just a very odd,

37:25

the sort of TV's and documentary was in. Like he was definitely

37:28

used a bit for entertainment. But

37:30

yeah, they were just fascinated with this guy,

37:33

with him. Actually also going back to

37:35

the porno thing, what was really strange

37:38

is they actually remained friends. They

37:40

became really close friends,

37:42

her and you see, like it's just, yeah,

37:45

a bit strange. This is the world

37:47

we live in. I know. Later

37:49

on in life, after the buzz around him died

37:52

down, he said his life

37:54

was really hard. Trying

37:56

to get a job as a known murderer.

37:59

and was like being

38:02

in prison itself. Like it was difficult,

38:04

is it? Oh, you got to live your life as a free man.

38:07

Oh. But he was still coining in on royalties

38:09

from books and he was also

38:12

writing restaurant reviews and doing art.

38:14

So he was still making, yeah.

38:16

So

38:17

he was still talk about how he has

38:20

his urges and it would usually masturbate

38:22

to try curb them. But he became

38:25

impotent. He came impotent. So he couldn't

38:27

get a boner anymore. An erection, sorry.

38:30

And he was unable to masturbate to scratch his itch.

38:32

So these urges, these cannibal

38:34

urges,

38:36

like it was so intense. I'm

38:38

not saying at all that he's

38:41

right at all, right? Obviously there's something

38:43

of some fucking wilds across in his

38:45

brain. And so he's got these

38:48

tremendous urges for flesh,

38:50

right? That he can't do

38:53

anything about. And he obviously had a way of coping

38:55

before,

38:56

but it's like, I can imagine actually

38:58

that being really fucking difficult. And

39:01

he goes on to say that he was getting

39:03

to the point where he wished he

39:05

was dead. He wanted to die. But

39:08

funny, he wanted to actually

39:10

die by being brutally murdered

39:12

and torn apart by a good looking woman. He

39:15

wanted to suffer. He said, I wanted

39:17

my death to be slow and painful and I wanted

39:19

to be torn apart by a woman.

39:21

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I

39:25

just, I hope he died really peacefully

39:27

then. Well, he actually- He didn't get

39:29

what he wanted. Because that's the thing, oh yeah, slowly and painfully.

39:31

He'd have got a satisfaction from that. Well,

39:34

he actually then, as he got older, he

39:36

started to get like the various different illnesses.

39:38

He became like wheelchair bound. His brothers

39:41

then cared for him. But he actually died

39:44

due to complications of pneumonia at

39:46

a hospital in Tokyo on the 24th of

39:48

November 2022 at

39:51

the age of 73. That was just

39:53

last year? Yeah, last November he died.

39:55

But he'd just been walking, he'd just been living as a free man.

39:58

That's mad, right. Can I look up some of the-

39:59

this can I look up one of his TV appearances?

40:02

Yeah go for it. But that is the story

40:05

of Sisisa Gawa. That was

40:07

really short actually wasn't it? Like

40:09

short. Yeah well it was sweet. That was sweet

40:12

though. Like fucked.

40:14

Absolutely fucked. Every time

40:17

you know every time I'm like ah the world has

40:19

some madness isn't it? In it doesn't

40:21

it? There's just a whole new fucking

40:23

level of

40:24

mad. So

40:28

I've just put Issei in and

40:30

the first one Issei's Ses Gawa. He's

40:33

a frightening looking man just anyway.

40:35

This

40:37

is awful. Listen he's

40:39

awful. He's awful. Look at his face.

40:41

No. Oh look but there he is

40:43

with her face in a frame. It's

40:46

awful. Yeah. And she's

40:49

got a picture of Renee in a frame. Disgusting.

40:53

Like I feel like it's just like he was just able to sort

40:55

of exploit her

40:56

over and over again. Oh he did. I think that's the worst part

40:59

of the story. Yeah. It's like her her poor body

41:01

was just like you can look it up. It's

41:03

just there. Like she had no sort of dignity.

41:05

No and he made money out of writing books about

41:07

it. There was no punishment. He

41:10

was praised for it almost. People took

41:12

a fascination in him and they wanted

41:14

more from him. Like it's mad.

41:17

That is that. That was a great great

41:20

story. Gross. Gross

41:22

story. Very interesting. Yeah. And you

41:24

got a rage. Very rage. Yeah. In

41:26

a while. In a while. But anyway we

41:29

have an announcement to make.

41:31

We do. So

41:35

as somebody's already picked up on this actually on

41:37

Instagram. Hello. Stute listener. What?

41:40

At the end of last week's episode I

41:42

said this one is the last in the series.

41:46

Let me just go. I'll name drop. I'll

41:48

name drop. No don't name drop. Just

41:50

make it anonymous. Well they've commented

41:52

on a post saying

41:53

I noticed you've said series and not season.

41:56

Is that a typo? That it's just going

41:58

to be the end of the season.

41:59

not the end of devils as a whole. I

42:02

thought season and series meant the same thing.

42:04

Well, that's why I said it,

42:05

but she's not wrong. No,

42:08

is she? We have made the executive

42:11

decision to end the podcast from

42:15

this- High note. On a high note. In a way. No,

42:18

not, it was, it has been a challenging

42:21

for us series seasons, so

42:25

we lost our producer, didn't we? We lost our producer,

42:27

Dear Alex. And she was an absolute

42:29

dream

42:30

for us to work with. That actually came

42:33

just at probably the worst time for

42:35

both of us. Yes. You've got so much

42:37

you just

42:37

going on- In my personal life. In your personal

42:39

life and like business wise. Yeah.

42:42

I'd obviously just had a baby. Yeah. And

42:45

navigating that

42:46

has been a real challenge. And I think, I

42:48

feel really proud of us for giving it a

42:50

go. Yeah, and trying. We really,

42:52

really wanted to continue.

42:55

Cause I think we had really big plans. We did.

42:57

And I think we were very excited with

43:00

Alex about season three and

43:02

doing crime con and doing that and working as a

43:04

team. But like on our own,

43:06

it's actually a lot more

43:08

work than we anticipated. And it

43:11

just became quite stressful at times.

43:13

And if I'm being completely honest,

43:15

and you don't mind me saying this, Danny, it did put a bit

43:18

of stress on our friendship. I think at times, yeah.

43:20

And like- Cause we weren't prepared to- No,

43:22

but prepared for it. And I think for both

43:24

of us, we're real perfectionists. And

43:28

it's an issue for me, but we talk about

43:30

it in therapy. But

43:35

like, yes, okay. You can do

43:37

a true crime podcast. But I think for us, because

43:40

we're not experts as well,

43:42

I will easily spend 10, 12 hours

43:44

just researching before

43:47

I even start writing a script. And

43:49

which it's so time consuming. We

43:52

wanna do it right. And we wanna do it well.

43:54

And I just don't, I

43:56

think for

43:57

us to be able to keep putting this out there

43:59

and- doing right by you guys as

44:01

fans of true crime, but

44:03

also to do right by the victims

44:06

and the history of what we're talking about.

44:08

It's a lot and I just don't think that

44:11

at the moment we can keep doing it justice.

44:13

And I just keep getting imposter syndrome. I'm not gonna

44:15

lie guys, I'm gonna be completely honest

44:17

because I wear my heart on my sleeve and I'm always so honest.

44:21

I feel like this is

44:23

because obviously I enjoy consuming true

44:25

crime. I do like talking about it, but like we said, because

44:27

we're new to it

44:28

and we're not experts. Like I just,

44:31

I've always got this feeling of I've done

44:33

something wrong. I've said something wrong. I've

44:35

got the facts wrong. Oh,

44:38

and I just, I'm not cut out for this, but

44:40

for some reason when Alex was producing it for us, it

44:42

felt like a little safety blanket. Like it's okay,

44:44

cause she knows, she knows best. So

44:47

now we're on the open wild together. I

44:49

just think this isn't my forte and I

44:51

feel uncomfortable talking about, I know we've

44:53

done all right. Like the season was fun and

44:55

fine, but behind the scenes, I'm

44:58

just like, oh, oh,

44:58

oh, oh, oh, oh. We plunged ourselves, like

45:01

we plunged ourselves right in the deep

45:03

end. And we were just like, right. We don't need to change anything

45:06

about what we've been doing. We'll just carry on how

45:08

we've been doing it, but we'll just do it all ourselves,

45:10

everything. You know, whereas if we'd started grassroots

45:13

ourselves, you know, we would have let something slide,

45:15

whether it's audio quality or

45:17

production quality or something and yeah.

45:20

So we've been trying really hard. And I think I

45:23

don't think, I really hope it's not the

45:25

end of us being in the studio together

45:28

in a different

45:28

format or, you know. Oh,

45:30

hell yeah. Like we have this, this studio

45:33

is ours, right? Yeah. I'm

45:35

gonna miss the smell of it. I'm gonna miss my. Exactly.

45:39

So I gotta come back at some point. Yeah.

45:42

And I think I would rather, I can see now it's taking a toll

45:44

on both of us. And I would

45:46

die if it got to the point where

45:49

sort of people are listening and going, do

45:52

you know what guys, this just isn't good. Yeah.

45:55

Anymore. So I think before we get to that point, it's

45:57

right for us to bow out.

45:59

Like.

45:59

Like Def Leppard said, it's

46:02

better to burn out than

46:04

fade away! Is that

46:06

the word? Is that the right? I

46:09

have no idea. I don't know. I'm just like, yeah.

46:12

So we would just like to say thank you so

46:14

much to everybody that has listened

46:17

and supported us and been there. It

46:20

has been a pleasure to deliver these

46:22

horrific stories to you. An absolute pleasure,

46:24

which sounds sick and twisted and it probably is.

46:27

And to everybody who has messaged,

46:29

commented

46:29

and reviewed, even

46:32

the ones that are like, it's just two women cackling

46:34

again. Disgusting. One star. Thank

46:36

you. Thank you, because every little

46:39

helps. Yeah. You know, all press is good

46:41

press, yo. It's really not. Everybody

46:44

that has come up to us and said in that public,

46:46

like, well, I love your podcast. We're like, oh, thank

46:48

you so much. It's brought so much. I think

46:50

that's the thing that I will take away from this. And my favourite

46:53

thing has been the interaction. Hell yeah. With

46:55

other people who are on a similar wavelength to us.

46:58

And I've just, I've loved it. So thank

46:59

you so much for taking just for taking

47:02

the time for taking the chance on

47:04

us, for taking the time to listen to us, for

47:06

getting invested in ourselves

47:08

and our stories. And

47:11

I think I'd also really

47:13

like to say thanks to producer Alex.

47:15

Oh, Alex. We've missed her terribly over the

47:18

season. And because this is really her baby

47:20

as well. Yeah. She put so much work into it early. Well,

47:22

it was there. I mean, it was audio for him's

47:24

idea. And they came to us. Would

47:26

you like to do this? And we were like, yeah, okay.

47:29

And so, yeah, producer Alex really

47:31

deserves a lot of love. And we will

47:33

always be very great. We will. And

47:35

Ellie, who's helped us. Oh, Ellie, thanks.

47:38

It just saved a lot of our bacon. Ellie

47:40

and also has just provided

47:41

a bit of a soundboard. And I think

47:44

also a shout out to Mike at Audio Boom. Oh, man. He

47:46

did try to

47:47

help us. Selfish

47:50

it. But yeah, it's been fab. Just

47:52

follow us on our personal socials.

47:55

Mine is at Helen Anders of a Z and

47:57

yours is at

47:59

that. Danny Howard. Yeah,

48:02

da double n i not the raid not the

48:04

DJ if you don't if you don't already And

48:06

we'll keep you updated because I have

48:08

got a hankering for us to just chat shit

48:11

moving forward Well, we've well,

48:13

you know organize shit organize

48:15

chaos. We've got some like

48:17

I think exciting projects. Yeah horizon

48:20

Yeah, we have but I would love to be back

48:22

in the studio with you Danny at some point

48:25

when we figured that out And be

48:27

here to speak to you about cranes

48:29

and salmon can

48:31

yeah

48:32

So, thank you so much. Thank

48:35

you so much as always there if

48:37

you need any support Following

48:39

the content of this episode. There was

48:41

some

48:42

helpful resources And

48:47

I guess we'll just leave

48:49

it there I love you Helen Anderson,

48:52

I love you Danny Howard I

48:54

Always feel a bit sad And

48:58

yeah, so for now This

49:00

is the end the final curtain.

49:03

Goodbye. Goodbye.

49:05

Good friends. Goodbye Do

49:08

you know what? In my head

49:10

when I left the house this morning and it seems like what

49:13

the Sun has gone

49:15

to bed and so

49:17

must I Good

49:27

I

49:28

Sound like I've smoked 50 a day because I

49:30

lost my I've been speaking a lot recently

49:33

as you can tell I'm a husky little

49:35

bitch. All right, let's say bye cuz we're on

49:37

a fucking tangent all the time It's happened again.

49:40

Love you all. We love you all. Thank you so

49:42

much and the devil's Instagram won't

49:44

go anywhere It's just nothing would be very active.

49:47

Yeah, we'll do one. Goodbye post

49:49

maybe and love you all

49:51

from afar

49:56

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