0:01

BBC Sounds, music, radio,

0:03

podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren

0:05

Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs

0:08

podcast. Every week I ask my guests to

0:10

choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd

0:12

want to take with them if they were

0:14

cast away to a desert island. And

0:17

for rights reasons, the music is shorter

0:19

than the original broadcast. I hope you

0:21

enjoy listening. My

0:46

castaway this week is Gully Frances De

0:48

Carne, Bishop of Chelmsford. She's

0:51

the third Anglican bishop in three generations

0:54

following in the footsteps of her father

0:56

and her grandfather. She also

0:58

sits in Parliament as a Lord Spiritual and

1:00

you may have seen her at the coronation

1:02

last year giving holy communion to the King

1:04

and Queen. The roots of her

1:07

family tree are intertwined with her faith. She

1:09

was born and raised in Iran and

1:11

was, she says, happily between and betwixt

1:14

the worlds of Christianity and Islam until

1:16

the Islamic Revolution of 1979. Her

1:20

family retargeted and amidst escalating violence,

1:22

they were forced to leave and

1:24

unable to return. She arrived

1:26

in the UK aged 13 as a refugee. She

1:30

was, she says, determined to transform

1:32

her experience of living on the

1:34

margins, both in Iran and in the

1:36

UK, into something positive. She says

1:38

there's a sense in which I've always

1:41

been a stranger and an interloper, living

1:43

with the ever-present anxiety of just not

1:45

quite fitting in. The challenge has been

1:48

to not get stuck in that

1:50

place. Bishop Gully Frances

1:52

De Carne, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you

1:54

very much. It's been good to be here. Now,

1:56

Gully, as I mentioned, your family history with the

1:58

church goes back to the end of the quite

2:00

some way and I think that the cruisier

2:02

the staff that you use is emblematic of

2:04

that. Tell me about it. So

2:07

the wooden staff that I use initially

2:10

belonged to my father who was given

2:12

it on his arrival in this country

2:14

and it was made of one solid

2:17

piece of wood and he

2:19

used it for many years and then in his old

2:21

age, two or three years before he died, one

2:23

day without telling any of us, he just

2:25

sawed the bottom of it off in order

2:27

to make it a walking stick

2:30

height and he carried on using

2:32

it. It looks a bit like a shepherd's crook

2:34

but a walking stick height and

2:36

he used it until he died and then

2:38

it sat in our umbrella stand for a

2:40

number of years and then when I became

2:42

a bishop, my husband had it restored to

2:45

its full height with a new piece of

2:47

wood and a metal cuff that connects the

2:49

new and the old. So

2:51

yes, I kind of think of

2:53

myself as my own person, very

2:56

different experiences but connected through

2:59

him both to my family's history but

3:01

also to the church in Iran and

3:03

indeed to the church in every time

3:05

and place. And there's a lovely kind

3:08

of resonance to the attitude to that

3:10

item which is something so hugely symbolic

3:12

but also practical and useful. Absolutely and

3:14

I think that says something about the

3:16

person my father was, both kind

3:19

of deeply spiritual but innately

3:21

kind of realistic and practical in

3:23

that sense. Gully, you have

3:25

a busy work life today. I wonder how

3:27

you carve out time for quiet contemplation? It's

3:31

really important that I try to do that

3:33

and it requires a certain discipline so I

3:36

do try to start every morning with

3:38

a short period of time to read

3:40

and then to have a little bit

3:43

of silence before then saying morning prayer.

3:45

So it's helped me over the years

3:47

to learn how to let go of

3:49

the things that I can't control,

3:52

the type of things

3:54

that might keep me awake at night

3:57

in the practice of silence. has

4:00

allowed me to practice the letting go. It's

4:03

time for your first disc today, Gully. What

4:06

have you chosen? So

4:08

the first piece I've chosen is Forres

4:10

Requiem. It's one of the earliest pieces

4:12

of Western classical music that I came

4:15

to know and love, and

4:17

it's punctuated my life at various

4:19

points. I've performed in

4:21

it on various occasions. I conducted it

4:23

while I was an undergraduate at Nottingham

4:25

University. I've listened to it in concert,

4:28

and I've heard it within the liturgical

4:30

setting, of course, where it's supposed to

4:32

be heard. The

5:36

Bear Amé from Forres Requiem performed

5:39

by Stephen Varko and the Cambridge

5:41

Singers with the City of London

5:43

Symphonia, conducted by John Rutter. Gully

5:46

Francis De Carne, your first name is

5:48

an abbreviation of Gullnar. What does that

5:50

mean in English? Gull

5:53

means flower, and anar is

5:55

pomegranate. So Gullnar is pomegranate

5:57

flower, and Gully is diminutive

5:59

flower. little flower. I've always

6:01

been gully, apart from with my dad when I

6:03

was little, occasionally I was gone off. What if

6:05

you're in trouble? You'd

6:08

think, wouldn't you? But no, I think he just

6:10

loved the name and occasionally liked to use the

6:12

full version. No, it is very beautiful. Tell me

6:14

a little bit more about your dad. Your father

6:16

Hassan is a man of enormous face and that

6:18

was the driving force in his life. But what

6:20

else do we need to know about him? How

6:22

would you describe him? He

6:25

was very tenacious. He had a

6:27

deep sense of justice. He

6:29

came from a very small village in the

6:32

centre of Iran called Taft,

6:34

from a very devout religious

6:36

Muslim family. His mother

6:38

encountered the British missionaries and trained as

6:40

a nurse in one of the hospitals

6:42

that they had set up. And

6:45

she died when he was very young

6:47

and her dying wish was that her

6:50

eldest son should have the opportunity to

6:52

be educated by the missionaries. So is

6:54

that how he came to convert? Yes.

6:56

So his father, who was a very

6:59

devout and spiritual man, couldn't quite bring

7:01

himself to allow his eldest son to

7:03

go, but he allowed his second son

7:06

to go, which was my dad. And

7:08

eventually at the age of 18, he

7:10

chose for himself to be baptised and

7:13

went on then to be ordained and was

7:15

by the time I was born Bishop

7:18

of the very, very small Anglican community

7:20

in Iran. And did choosing that

7:22

path cause problems for him? Did it put

7:24

him a distance between him and his family?

7:27

I think it definitely caused a rift.

7:29

Many families would have disowned a son

7:31

or a family member who was baptised.

7:34

Actually, they didn't do that. They remained

7:36

in good relationship. But I

7:38

think it was painful for them. He

7:40

loved his father very much. And

7:42

I think they arrived at a place

7:45

where each said that they would pray

7:47

for the other. And there

7:49

was a kind of sense of acceptance there,

7:51

but certainly for him, it

7:53

raised all kinds of questions about

7:55

his identity, how to be both

7:57

fully Christian, but also fully Persian.

8:00

because in Iran, you know, national

8:02

and cultural and religious identity are

8:04

very closely bound up. So to have

8:07

seen to betray your faith is

8:09

in a sense to

8:11

be a betrayer of your nationality and culture.

8:13

And so he became a bit of an

8:15

outsider in his own country. But

8:17

in the end, I think what it gave

8:20

him in terms of meaning for his life

8:22

and so on, he never regretted

8:24

it. Gully, it's time

8:26

for your second piece of music today. What are

8:28

we going to hear? It's called Mora Sahar,

8:30

which in English translates as Dawn

8:33

Bird or Morning Bird. It's

8:35

based on a poem that was written

8:37

in the early 20th century. It's a

8:39

very well-known song in Iran. It's become

8:41

a little bit like a protest song,

8:43

an anthem for the struggles of freedom.

8:46

And every time I hear it, I can still

8:48

hear my dad kind of humming along to it.

8:59

It's called

9:02

Mora Sahar

9:05

by Homer

9:07

Yoon Chajarian.

9:25

Gully Frances De Carnie, your mother Margaret

9:27

was born in Iran. Her parents were

9:29

missionaries. What was she like? My

9:33

mother was an extraordinary person.

9:35

She was utterly selfless. She

9:38

had a kind of combination of the

9:40

kind of Victorian stoicism, but with a

9:42

very, very deep love of Iran. She'd

9:44

been born there. She was raised there. She

9:46

lived pretty much all her life there. I

9:50

Mean, obviously sharing a deep faith and a

9:52

love of Iran, but your parents' backgrounds sound

9:54

quite different then. I Mean, would that have

9:56

been cause for demer? What did people around

9:59

them think of? Their marriage in

10:01

the fact that they got together. I

10:03

believe that they will warn some by

10:05

several people not to go ahead sort

10:07

of the marriage and I can kind

10:09

of understand why as he say that

10:11

their backgrounds with so very different. The

10:13

odds were against them, but there was

10:15

a very very deep bond between them

10:17

ina. My mother was the stable one

10:19

in terms of providing some early life

10:21

for us, but my father couldn't have

10:23

done the things he did. He couldn't

10:26

have been the person he was without

10:28

her support. So in the end they.

10:30

Were the kind of perfect match for each

10:32

other and they defied the odds and I

10:34

had a very happy and long. Long.

10:36

Marriage You born in nineteen sixty six in

10:38

Isfahan in central or own and brought up

10:40

in the bishops has to the seats as

10:43

the Anglican church in the country You went

10:45

to a local school where you were the

10:47

only question. Did you feel different from the

10:49

other children? I.

10:51

Think C S is probably the

10:54

honest answer, but it wasn't in

10:56

any way a problem, it was

10:58

just as something that I accept

11:00

it. and it didn't stop me

11:02

making friends. But I think yes

11:04

we were. So for example around

11:06

Christmas time and we would go

11:09

carol. Singing from the church, not

11:11

not in the streets or anything,

11:13

but around people's houses. Who were

11:15

members of the church. So there was

11:17

a very definite moving out of the

11:20

church compound. something that was still connected

11:22

with nice. There are so I remember

11:24

those kinds of things and I remember

11:26

there. Being interests and the street, sometimes

11:29

we'd be followed. That was certain amount

11:31

of suspicion. And there were. Groups always

11:33

who I think so threatened by

11:35

our our presence and so. On So

11:37

were you aware of that at the time?

11:39

I'm an hard had to that feel. I

11:42

think I was aware of it at the

11:44

time but it sounds really strange but it

11:46

was just part of life. It's it's all

11:48

it's all I knew could time to go

11:50

to the music your you said choice today.

11:52

What have you gone full and why This

11:54

is a right on time by black box.

11:57

So after I am graduate. It

12:00

in Nineteen Eighty Nine. So one

12:02

after that. I joined the B

12:04

B C as a trainee Cydia

12:07

Manager. So am

12:09

this A really takes me back to

12:11

the initial training period in the Btc

12:13

I joined to the cohort sixteen and

12:15

we trained had about three months training

12:18

periods in each somewhere that and the

12:20

Bbc has a a training center and

12:22

a lot of fun with had during

12:24

that time and of like can say

12:26

is that this piece reminds. Me

12:29

as though space. And

13:03

right into. The differences to

13:05

Connie In Nineteen Seventy Nine, the Iranian

13:07

Revolution led the establishment as an Islamic

13:09

Republic in the country. At what point

13:12

did you and your family realize like

13:14

was good to be difficult for Christians

13:16

living in the country because initially your

13:18

father have been quite optimistic. About

13:20

change. Your.

13:22

Fc right The my father was supporters of

13:25

the chains and regime In a things had

13:27

become very very difficult under the the former

13:29

Saw and many. Many people wanted to

13:31

see change. But pretty

13:34

quickly it became apparent that the revolution

13:36

wasn't going to a deliver what it

13:38

had promised. Very early on in the

13:41

revolution, one of all clergy in the

13:43

city of Shiraz was found murdered in

13:45

his study. Some of the church institutions,

13:48

hospitals and schools, a salon were confiscated,

13:50

all closed down, offices were raided, and

13:52

or house was raided. Even after that

13:54

was an attempt on my parents slice

13:57

at one point in which my mother

13:59

was. Check. My father survived. my mother

14:01

was injured so they were him in bed

14:03

with early as the morning and to gunman

14:06

broke into the house and and came into

14:08

the room and shots Fired Five shots and

14:10

I still have the pillow case that says

14:12

what looks like a halo of bullet holes

14:14

around where my father had was been. My

14:16

mother threw herself over him. she said she

14:19

thought they comes take him away again. Hit.

14:21

Briefly been imprisoned. Before that and

14:23

so one bullet went to her hand.

14:25

She ran off to them, down the

14:27

stairs that went around the outside the

14:29

the house, across the gotten to where

14:31

they climbed of the wolves and and

14:34

she didn't even notice that she'd been

14:36

shot until she stopped and. Then looked

14:38

in there and saw. That the blood was

14:40

tripping on the pain and so on

14:42

and on was taken to hospital for

14:44

surgery. but even after that you know

14:46

I remember we walked to church nights

14:48

along the streets and just celts that

14:50

in a that he was gonna blow

14:52

over. Nobody thought it would last. Yeah

14:54

we we carried on so far as

14:56

long as we could we simply carried

14:58

on. And what about your friendships with

15:00

other children? One.

15:02

Or two of my friends who were in

15:05

more devout Muslim families were incensed by what

15:07

they were hearing. I remember once and very

15:09

tenuous offering to carry her bags. you're struggling

15:11

a bit you sit on in a in

15:13

a your unseen and teachers as well. I

15:15

i did start to get kind of ostracized

15:17

the bitterness and no reason at all they

15:19

had it find an excuse to send me

15:22

out the class and I'd have to stand

15:24

in the cards or with and I remember

15:26

having sticker in one of my for example

15:28

that had a bible this on his or

15:30

something that that and and one of the

15:32

teachers. Being very angry about this and telling

15:34

me to take it out and but refusing

15:36

to do that senior Actually, this is that

15:38

this is a matter of prince of stuff

15:40

From a very young age I target inculcated

15:43

in the Us Census principal and a deep

15:45

sense of justice and. The pain.

15:47

Of injustice and being powerless.

15:50

Police time to go to next piece of music.

15:52

Disc number for what are we going to here

15:54

and by. this

15:57

is a piece by frank bridge

15:59

it's called minute for piano trio.

16:01

I've got three children, they've

16:04

all left home now but while the three of them

16:06

were growing up the house was always full of music

16:09

and this is a piece that I remember

16:11

the three of them playing together particularly during

16:13

lockdown where there was a lot of opportunity

16:16

to play music together. This piece will

16:18

remind me of the three of them playing. The

17:19

Front Bridge's miniatures for piano

17:22

trio performed by Jack Liebeck,

17:24

Alexander Chauchen and Ashley Woss.

17:27

Gully Francis De Carne a week after

17:29

the assassination attempt on your father, your

17:31

parents went to Cyprus on church business.

17:34

While they were there the situation in

17:36

Iran deteriorated and he was advised not

17:38

to return so your mother came back

17:40

without him and then the following year

17:43

events took a terrible turn. Your

17:45

brother, Baccaron, was killed. How

17:48

did you find out what had happened? I

17:51

found out purely by accident at

17:53

school. My mother was in Tehran

17:56

at the time and my brother was in

17:59

Tehran as well. He was teaching

18:01

at the university there and he

18:03

had been killed on. The

18:05

success may my. Eldest

18:07

sister who was sitting often. He

18:09

found out very late at night

18:11

after I'd gone to bed and

18:13

because there was so much uncertainty

18:15

around she decided and I completely

18:18

understand as she decided to not

18:20

say anything to be adequate how

18:22

she did it, but she. Saw

18:24

me of school the next morning. Say. Wanted to

18:26

know what she was going telling you before

18:28

she told. yeah absolutely. I think she wants

18:30

to get it together for herself. a little

18:33

bit in and not unduly post me upset

18:35

earlier than necessary. So she's a mess schools

18:37

but somebody at school had heard the news

18:39

so they said to me i heard on

18:42

the news this morning that your brothers been

18:44

killed and I just dismiss it. I said

18:46

oh no it it must be a mistake

18:49

and then earlier than the end of the

18:51

school day around lunchtime ice and to spot

18:53

my sister with a friend walking towards. The

18:55

School and as soon as I saw her

18:58

I. I knew that and that

19:00

that the what I said was

19:02

true sir. As Sheets and you know

19:04

my sister never need to tell me I

19:06

knew straight away and and. And

19:09

and just twenty four when. When

19:11

he lost his life, I mean, what perspectives

19:13

do you have when his death? Now as

19:15

an adult, I'm sure it was incomprehensible to

19:18

you as a younger. It

19:20

was the chaos of revolution I

19:23

think is is all I can

19:25

say and I have to try

19:27

and see it within that context

19:29

too. Young men ambushed this call,

19:31

gotten a. I. Witness later

19:33

told us that they had a brief

19:36

conversation and then one of them pulled

19:38

a gun and killed killed him. And

19:40

so yeah, we've spent a lifetime coming

19:42

to terms with it, I guess. and

19:44

and in a sense it was his

19:46

sacrifice that brought us here. I don't

19:48

think my mom and my sister and

19:50

I would have less if we hadn't

19:52

had a very good reason to. So

19:54

he gave us the just as of

19:57

the chances. a new new life in

19:59

this country. I'm a very

20:01

bittersweet and itself it is that

20:03

it's It's a way of honor

20:05

since as is whoever honoring his

20:07

memory and trying to see that

20:09

goods. In what is so we

20:11

kids and evil situation and. Of

20:14

course, absolutely devastating for your parents. I mean,

20:16

it's a daily task to learn to forgive,

20:18

and they were determined to do that. I

20:20

think. They were

20:22

and they never pretended it was

20:24

easy. I think my saw that

20:26

probably spend the rest of his

20:28

eyes coming to terms with the

20:30

fact that if he'd been there

20:32

would have been him and and

20:35

not his son. but I think

20:37

they were absolutely committed not to

20:39

giving in and becoming bitter and

20:41

angry and full of hate themselves.

20:43

And. So they dedicated themselves to

20:45

continuing to serve in whatever way

20:48

they could Consensus To Carney, it's

20:50

time for your next piece of

20:52

music. Assist. Disc. Number five to

20:54

say. This.

20:56

Next piece was originally. Composed

20:59

as a hint soon by my

21:01

brother bathroom for words that were

21:03

written by my father it is

21:05

part as a person him know

21:07

it still sung in the church

21:09

in Iran today and by person

21:11

christians around the world at the

21:13

version that we're going to hear

21:15

his and arrangements that was done

21:17

by David Peacock who was my

21:19

music teacher when I first came

21:21

to England and the cellist on

21:23

this recording is my eldest son,

21:25

Gabriel. He reminds hear

21:27

lots of my rather they would. Have got on very

21:29

well. Variations

22:06

on Falcons Manatee composed my

22:08

back from the Connie. Testy.

22:10

Arranged by David Peacocks and

22:12

performed. By Gabriel friend's sister Connie

22:14

which Fiona Sweeney. Kristoff.

22:17

Couldn't and will homer. Golly

22:20

Francis to Connie on May the twentieth

22:22

nineteen ac. He left Iran with your

22:24

mother and your eldest sister. So he

22:26

was leaving the only home you've ever

22:29

known in tragic circumstances. How do you

22:31

remember the journey. I

22:34

remember sitting on this vast plains. it was

22:36

one of the last be a sites to

22:38

leave the country before be a stopped flying

22:41

to Iran from her while and I think

22:43

that was seven of us on a on

22:45

a massive Boeing jet and I can remember

22:47

it taking off and looking out the window

22:49

and and down to the countryside and and

22:51

wondering how long it would be before we'd

22:54

be back. So yeah he runs around to

22:56

combat. you're. Expected to come back. Absolutely. I

22:58

don't think it occurred to any of us that

23:00

we wouldn't be back within. A few months, Maybe

23:02

a year at the most? Is

23:05

T derived? You were reunited with your

23:07

father and somebody settled in Cambridge. An

23:09

assassin one of the theological colleges. You

23:12

got a full bursary to study at

23:14

a christian boarding school in Bedfordshire. How

23:16

did you manage to adjust to life

23:19

in the Uk? It was a real

23:21

culture shock. Although I spoke English, my

23:23

English was rusty. Allah wasn't that comfortable

23:25

using it, But you know, I suddenly

23:28

had opportunities that I'd never had before

23:30

and I I was really keen to

23:32

to grab those opportunities. I got involved.

23:35

In the music and drama in the

23:37

sport and so on. as much more

23:39

interested in those things really than than

23:41

the academics now. So yeah it became

23:43

the springboard from which the rest of

23:45

my life developed in this country and

23:47

by Nineteen Eighty nine he graduated from

23:49

nothing the university and with music degree

23:51

and want to sound engineer so the

23:53

Bbc How did that more spiritual path

23:55

that you you took us to that

23:57

develop. Yeah,

24:00

I think as I was growing up

24:02

in my late teens or kind of

24:05

try to think to leave all of

24:07

that behind and and walk away from

24:09

Priest. I. Couldn't

24:11

quite do as I as bit rubbish

24:13

at it really and it kept join

24:16

me back. But it wasn't until later

24:18

in my late twenties asteroids got married

24:20

that I was it a bit of

24:22

a crossroads or less. the B B

24:24

C in order to move ask London

24:26

with my husband to was training to

24:28

be ordained and I had assumed. That

24:31

this would not be the opportunity to have

24:33

children and that. Wasn't. Happening And

24:35

so I was beginning to wonder what

24:37

if I never had children? what am

24:39

I can do the rest my life

24:41

And so I didn't really have a

24:43

Damascus Road experience. I was also doing

24:45

my doctoral studies on the role of

24:47

his particular of women missionaries in Iran

24:50

and death cross section of feminists theology

24:52

into say studies and the the more

24:54

I learned in the more I studied

24:56

about my homeland and year on the

24:58

food deserts gap south of the inability

25:00

to go back almost became like her

25:02

and Eight assists a cold. Ache I

25:05

remember. I mean it was a very

25:07

very painful time in many respects. Answer

25:09

me out, You know is very very

25:11

fortunes and blessed that everything worked worked

25:14

out well. but I remember a census

25:16

of a determination that however painful this

25:18

is, I've got to and I will

25:21

find a positive way through. It's time

25:23

for your next disc. What if you

25:25

choose and. So.

25:27

This is so my husband rarely

25:30

and it would remind me of

25:32

him a my absence from islands

25:34

and say he is a huge

25:36

Sinead O'connor fun and I've chosen

25:38

a track coach take me to

25:41

church which also reminds me that.

25:43

Religion and and the church which

25:45

should be a place of healing.

25:47

sadly awesome causes it I'm

26:00

not the one who works

26:02

for the United Kingdom I

26:05

was once dead, and he

26:08

is dead Oh, he is

26:10

dead, and I'm not dying I'm

26:12

not the one who

26:15

works for the United Kingdom I'm

26:18

not the one who works for the United Kingdom

26:21

Sinead O'Connor And take me to church Gully

26:23

Francis De Carney You were the first

26:25

woman from an ethnic minority background to be ordained

26:27

as an Anglican bishop in the UK What

26:30

did that mean to you personally? Well,

26:34

it came from left field really and

26:36

yet, in a very strange

26:38

way, it made sense

26:41

I had this feeling that it

26:44

was clearly not about what I'd done in terms

26:46

of experience in the church It

26:48

was about my life experiences and what

26:51

that might have to contribute now within

26:53

the context of the Church of England

26:56

So I kind of feel I represent

26:58

something way beyond myself and

27:01

a sense in which it's

27:03

symbolic of pulling something from

27:05

the boundaries into the middle

27:07

this small, tiny Anglican community

27:09

in the middle of nowhere

27:11

Through me now, almost

27:13

at the heart of the establishment here

27:15

it's bizarre, it still surprises me But

27:18

I feel that quite strongly and I

27:20

feel a sense of responsibility with it

27:23

So for the, if I can

27:25

put it like this for the

27:27

Church of England we have lots

27:29

to learn from persecuted, smaller

27:32

Christian communities and

27:34

I hope that partly through my

27:36

story I'm able to weave those threads

27:38

together Your parents lived

27:41

long and happy lives in the

27:44

UK and are buried together near Winchester Cathedral

27:46

Now, I know that you and your sisters

27:48

thought long and hard about what to put

27:50

on their gravestone Can you

27:52

tell me what you were trying to capture? In

27:56

the later years of his life when my father

27:58

began to think about the fact that actually the

28:00

likelihood was he was going to die in this

28:02

country. He was very keen to find

28:04

a plot of ground somewhere where he could be

28:06

buried. In Islam, cremation

28:08

is kind of anathema, so he

28:11

wanted a burial place. And

28:13

so he asked the then Bishop and

28:15

the Dean of the Cathedral whether there

28:18

was an open churchyard anywhere in the

28:20

diocese where he could have a plot.

28:22

And extraordinarily, they came back with this

28:25

very generous offer. They said, you can't

28:27

be buried in your own diocese, so

28:29

you can be buried here. And we

28:31

wanted to capture something of the fact

28:34

that they had been aliens, strangers in

28:36

this land, and yet found a place

28:38

of belonging so that the

28:40

Bible verse and the line of poetry

28:43

that we've chosen reflect those themes.

28:45

What does it say? No longer strangers

28:48

and aliens, but citizens in the

28:50

household of God. They're

28:52

always very much with me in

28:54

spirit, and I miss them. I

28:57

miss them hugely. It's time for

28:59

some more music. Gugliel's seventh choice today. What are

29:01

we going to hear next? This

29:04

is Sovereign Light Cafe by

29:07

Keen. They have become a

29:10

favorite of us as a family,

29:12

I guess. And this track in

29:14

particular will remind me of family

29:16

holidays, driving in the car

29:18

with this blaring at full volume, all of

29:20

us singing along. We went to

29:22

see them perform live, open air, just as

29:24

we were coming out of lockdown, actually, and

29:27

hoping that they would play this piece. And they didn't,

29:29

and they didn't, and they didn't until they offered

29:31

it as an encore right at the end. Cane's

30:05

and Sovereign Light Cafe.

30:08

Gully Francis De Carney, in 2019,

30:10

you led a service in Farsi

30:12

at Wakefield Cathedral. It was a

30:14

historic moment, the first authorized Persian

30:16

translation of the Church of England's

30:18

liturgy. What did that mean to you? Wakefield

30:21

Cathedral, it's not a huge cathedral, but

30:23

it's a big building and it was

30:26

jam-packed full of

30:29

Iranians, many of them young

30:31

men, I mean standing room only. And

30:33

it was profoundly moving and both an

30:37

experience that took me back

30:39

to my childhood, but also a recognition

30:41

that this is kind of a new

30:43

manifestation. And so some of what

30:46

I would have remembered and would

30:48

have been familiar to me, I have

30:50

to just let it go. There's no good clinging on

30:52

to the past. New life

30:54

only comes sometimes when some

30:56

things die and are let

30:58

go of. When you're

31:00

trying to make sense of a story as enormous

31:03

as yours, as amazing as yours, how

31:06

do you manage to strike that balance of

31:08

processing what's happened and then going, okay, and

31:10

now I'm going to put that aside and go

31:12

forward? There is much in my

31:14

past that I'm proud of. It's shaped me,

31:17

it's made me who I am, and there

31:19

are also painful difficult bits, but none of

31:21

it defines me. And I try to be

31:23

open to new experiences, new understandings,

31:26

new ways of learning and new ways

31:28

of being. I'm glad that you're

31:30

open to new experiences because you're about to

31:32

have one. I'm about to cast you away

31:34

to your desert island. What

31:36

do you think the first thing you'll do when you get there will

31:39

be? Well,

31:42

probably if I've been shipwrecked

31:44

relief that I've found dry

31:46

land. We'll give you

31:48

a soft landing, don't we? I'm

31:50

quite happy in my own company. I think for a

31:52

while I'll quite enjoy it.

31:55

Time to think and reflect

31:57

and pull together all the

31:59

different threads. that have made up my life so

32:01

far. Well one more piece of music before we send

32:03

you there. What's your final choice

32:05

today? This is

32:07

a singer that I came across several

32:10

years ago, my own namesake actually, she's

32:12

called Golnar Shahiar. She combines

32:14

Persian poetry and this one,

32:16

which is called the fish

32:18

in English, Mahi, is

32:21

probably by the most famous

32:23

and influential 20th century poet

32:25

in Iran called Ahmad Asham

32:27

Loo. But Golnar Shahiar, she

32:29

combines the Persian poetry and

32:31

melody in a sense with

32:33

contemporary jazz influences, with African-Caribbean

32:36

rhythms, and she seems

32:38

to me to express something of

32:40

my desire to find my own voice, to

32:43

make something positive out of a feeling of

32:45

not quite belonging. Mahi

33:16

by Golnar Shahiar. So

33:18

Gully Francis De Carne, I'm going to send

33:20

you away to the island now, I'll give

33:22

you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare,

33:25

and you can take another book with you. What would

33:27

you like? So

33:29

I've chosen to take with me the

33:32

Shahnameh, which in English is the book

33:34

of kings. This is a

33:36

seminal work within the canon of Persian

33:39

literature. It's a 10th

33:41

century epic poem by the

33:43

famous Persian poet called Ferdowsi,

33:46

and it tells the story of

33:48

pre-Islamic Iran or Persia, and

33:51

it combines myth and legend and history. And

33:53

I grew up knowing some of the stories,

33:55

but I've never read it, so this would

33:57

give me the opportunity to do that. I

33:59

think my Persian is now quite

34:01

rusty so I would be helped by

34:03

an English translation alongside which would both

34:06

help me improve my Persian again and also

34:08

fully follow this

34:10

amazing poem. Well

34:13

it's yours you can also take

34:15

a luxury item what would you

34:17

like? I'd like to take my

34:19

photograph albums I'm a great lover

34:22

of printing out my photos

34:24

and putting them into albums so it

34:27

would make me feel connected to those that

34:29

I've left behind and also if

34:31

I had a supply of blank albums

34:33

I'd have the time to catch up

34:35

over the past few years many

34:38

photos have been left still out of the album.

34:40

Oh yet to be organized would give me a

34:42

project as well. And finally which

34:44

one track of the eight that you shared with

34:46

us today would you rush to save from the

34:48

Waves first? Really tough but

34:51

probably Forre's Requiem it's the

34:53

soundtrack that's punctuated many points

34:55

of my life Bishop

34:57

Gully Francis De Carney thank you very much

35:00

for letting us hear your desert island discs.

35:02

Thank you very much for having me I

35:19

hope you enjoyed my conversation with Gully

35:22

I'm glad she sees the island as

35:24

a place for reflection we've cast away

35:26

many spiritual leaders including Lord Indigit Singh,

35:29

Dr. Jonathan Sacks and Justin Welby you

35:31

can find these episodes in our desert

35:33

island discs program archive and through BBC

35:35

Sands the studio manager for

35:38

today's program was Emma Hart the

35:40

assistant producer was Christine Pavlovski and

35:42

the producer was Paula McGinley the

35:44

series editor is John Gowdy next

35:46

time my guest will be the cellist Shekko

35:48

Kenny Mason I do hope you'll join us Hello,

36:02

I'm Doctor Michael. Mostly stand

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