0:00

A note to our listeners. There is a

0:02

brief mention of suicide in this episode. It's

0:06

episode 156 of our

0:08

show, and there are some

0:11

things I've done a lot of times,

0:13

and will continue to do some more.

0:15

Just gonna keep doing them. One

0:17

of them is to say it's

0:19

depression mode. I'm John Moe. I'm glad

0:21

you're here. Here

0:31

are some other things I've done before over the

0:33

last 155 episodes, plus

0:36

another seven or so of the old show,

0:38

that I'm going to keep doing. I'm

0:40

going to keep telling you that

0:43

examining your childhood, examining how you

0:45

got built, is crucially important. It's

0:47

not about living in the past.

0:49

It's about knowing how your present

0:52

and future work. I'm

0:54

going to continue to advocate for writing that

0:56

stuff down. Even if you

0:58

have no intention of publishing it, or

1:00

even showing it to other people, selecting

1:03

memories that stand out, forming them into

1:05

narratives, is a great way to understand

1:07

what the hell happened back there. I'm

1:11

going to keep on encouraging you to

1:13

find what's funny about the humanity we

1:16

all share. And so I'm

1:18

definitely going to keep booking Gary Gullman,

1:20

who I've interviewed a bunch of times

1:22

already, but will keep interviewing some

1:24

more, including here in this episode. Gary

1:27

is a comedian. His latest special is on HBO,

1:29

and it's called Born on Third Base. I said

1:31

to my dad, I really want to play hockey.

1:34

He said, if you really want to play hockey,

1:36

I'll try to find the money for

1:38

you to play this sport. You've shown

1:40

no potential. Not

1:44

only have you shown no potential in hockey, but

1:46

Jews have

1:50

acquitted themselves with very little distinction, to

1:53

be honest with you, Gary. Son,

1:55

go grab the sports almanac. We're going to look at

1:57

the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jewish

2:00

players in the hockey hall of famina.

2:02

And we open up the book. He said, OK, ready? Done.

2:10

This was 1978. There were zero

2:12

Jewish players in the hockey hall of famina

2:15

in 1978. Now there

2:17

are zero Jewish players in the

2:19

hockey hall of famina. My dad

2:21

said, just for a point of

2:23

comparison, son, more Jews have

2:25

been the Messiah. Gary

2:36

Dolman is an author of the memoir Misfit,

2:38

Growing Up Awkward in the 80s. And

2:41

he's a mental health hero to a lot of people.

2:44

Gary has dealt with intense major depressive

2:46

disorder, been hospitalized for it, was unable to

2:48

function for a time and had to

2:50

move back in with his mom. He

2:52

was in his late 40s. He

2:55

eventually did find meds that worked for

2:57

him. He got good therapy. Now he

2:59

feels a lot better. And he talked

3:01

about his experiences in the

3:03

very important 2019 comedy special,

3:06

kind of a special, kind of a one man play

3:09

called The Great Depression. It's

3:11

not easy to make comedy out of a

3:13

subject like that. But Gary is

3:15

an unusually gifted person. Yes,

3:17

I will keep having Gary on because he

3:20

has a lot to say, has a big

3:22

heart, he's smart. And in the context

3:24

of mental health in 2024, he is important. Unlike

3:28

other times I've interviewed him, this

3:30

time, Gary Dolman was wearing

3:32

a very funky hat. Gary

3:40

Dolman, welcome back to depression mode. It

3:42

is a pleasure. Thank you for having me back.

3:46

This isn't something I normally ask about

3:48

because we are an audio show and

3:50

not a, there's no video element to

3:52

it, but could you please describe the

3:54

hat that you're wearing? Oh, it is

3:56

a bucket hat style and it is,

3:59

it is. made of various

4:02

denim patches. And

4:05

I got it at a store up

4:07

here and I

4:09

knew it was a bit of a reach in terms

4:11

of my style because it's a little bit funky, it's

4:16

a little bit brash, but

4:19

I've committed to it and more than

4:21

any other hat in my lifetime, I've

4:23

gotten compliments on it. So

4:25

I'm very pleased with the reception, but

4:28

also it feels like something that's

4:31

out of my comfort zone in

4:33

terms of stylishness. Yeah,

4:35

it looks like if a bunch

4:38

of distressed jeans got together and decided

4:40

to form a hat. That is

4:42

a great way to, that is the perfect way to put it. I

4:45

love it, yeah. Yeah, and

4:47

like you say, it's surprising

4:49

for somebody with an accounting degree to

4:51

be wearing a hat like that, but

4:53

you've come a long way. Yes, no,

4:55

I'm very grateful for where

4:58

I found myself in terms of fashion

5:01

acceptance. Great. The

5:05

book is Misfit Growing Up Awkward in

5:07

the 80s. You

5:09

could write a book about a lot of

5:11

things and I read this book and it's

5:13

wonderful. Why specifically write a

5:16

book about growing up? Oh,

5:18

I mean, I think I'm more focused

5:23

and I hate to say

5:25

I'm obsessed with my childhood

5:29

than the average person.

5:33

It's a wonderful combination

5:35

of trauma and

5:38

happiness and joy and

5:40

nostalgia. And I just,

5:43

there were so many moments growing up where

5:46

I would think to myself, I will never

5:48

forget this. And I always found myself in

5:50

a kind of mode of

5:53

recording things as if I

5:55

were a writer. I think part of it was just

5:57

being an avid reader and knowing what goes into it.

6:00

a book and always kind

6:02

of dreaming or aspiring to write

6:04

a book, I was

6:06

well aware of what books contained because

6:09

I read so many of them. So

6:11

I said about consciously

6:13

and subconsciously collecting moments

6:16

and events. And

6:18

a lot of these events were

6:21

narrated by a kid who at

6:23

least sometimes allowed, sometimes in my

6:25

head, I would say, I will

6:27

never forget this. And

6:30

so I have this unusual

6:32

memory for details

6:34

and specifics

6:37

that lend itself well to

6:39

writing really

6:42

any kind of book, but

6:44

particularly memoir, I think. It's

6:46

really helpful. And after

6:49

coming out of the Depression, I

6:51

spent a lot of time analyzing what

6:54

got me there and how long it

6:56

had been going on and what were

6:58

the sort of triggers, but also the

7:01

symptoms that were on display early on.

7:03

So after I started to recover, it

7:05

became natural that I would

7:07

want to share this story. It's

7:10

sort of a prequel to the Great

7:12

Depression. Yeah, yeah,

7:15

yeah. It's an origin story.

7:19

How would a sympathetic and wise

7:22

and caring adult have described

7:24

Young Gary? Tell us about

7:26

the character that you are

7:28

in this book. It's

7:30

interesting. A thoughtful adult

7:32

would say he is

7:35

beautifully sensitive, whereas

7:38

the adults I

7:40

had in my life, except for my

7:42

dad really, would have said he's oversensitive,

7:44

he's hypersensitive, he's ultra sensitive, which just

7:47

means that he's not great at

7:50

tolerating criticism and insult and commentary.

7:52

So I think a thoughtful adult

7:54

would say he's very sensitive, but

7:56

also, and it's funny that I

7:58

would just... hear this

8:00

in a book I'm listening to by

8:02

Adam Gopnik. He talks about, I guess,

8:06

eight year olds, he describes them

8:08

as being over aware

8:11

and indignant. And,

8:13

and that really, that really captured

8:16

sort of my idea that I was thinking

8:18

about everything all the time. And I was

8:20

outraged by what I was, what

8:22

I was seeing and what I was going through

8:25

and just the injustices of it all. And

8:27

I think it, again,

8:30

it lends itself to a

8:32

writer, which is you're noticing

8:35

things and you're observing. And

8:37

then the indignation, I think, is

8:40

really helpful in motivating

8:42

the sentences in which you

8:44

declare the injustice

8:47

and the imbalance. It's

8:50

a form of escape, really, isn't it? Like, if

8:53

you can see the broader picture of

8:55

how ridiculous your situation is and how

8:57

ridiculous the other kids are and the

9:00

grownups supposedly in charge, you can kind

9:02

of rise above a little bit, even

9:05

if it's only in your mind. Yeah,

9:07

that's a great point. It gives you

9:09

some distance, at least in your head,

9:11

where you can

9:13

be sort of arrogant about it and

9:16

being this is beneath me and how

9:18

should I be treated this way. But

9:20

it also, and I think comedy

9:22

was this great

9:26

solve too, was that you could

9:28

take these injustices and these traumas

9:31

and in writing gain

9:34

some revenge or in comedy you

9:36

make it into a joke and you think

9:38

at least I am in control of the

9:41

laughter and I am sort of

9:44

redeeming the situation by

9:46

bringing some lightness and

9:49

laughter to others. So it's

9:52

sort of an alchemy

9:55

in which you're turning this garbage into

9:57

gold. Were

10:01

you described as sensitive? Because

10:04

I remember being a kid and being

10:06

described as sensitive and it

10:08

occurred to me like, wait, sensitive is

10:11

a put down? Oh yeah, yeah,

10:13

yeah. It's a pejorative term. Yes,

10:15

yes. I think

10:17

that it wasn't

10:19

until I really got

10:21

ahead of my depression and adopted

10:24

this sort of, or not adopted

10:26

it, but learned to accept aspects

10:29

of myself instead of deriding

10:31

them or hiding them. And

10:34

I was able to find, oh, this thing where

10:36

you're sensitive has been really helpful for you

10:40

artistically, but more importantly,

10:42

it's made you a more empathetic,

10:44

kinder person. And

10:46

so looking back, the people who

10:49

were calling me sensitive

10:51

and the way they would say it and

10:55

the way people continue to do

10:57

this, I forget where,

10:59

I think it was in a book by my friend Will

11:02

Schwabbe and he was

11:04

talking about in a

11:06

book he wrote called The End of Your Life Book

11:08

Club and then he wrote kind of a follow up

11:11

to it, which is called Books for Living. And

11:13

he was talking about being called sensitive

11:15

as a kid and even later as

11:17

an adult and it was this label

11:21

that people gave you to any

11:23

sensitivity was oversensitivity in their eyes.

11:26

So if you were, people were

11:28

calling him oversensitive and he realized

11:31

that they just mean you're sensitive and

11:33

they get to judge this and decide what

11:36

you should be upset about and it's

11:38

just, it seems pretty hostile

11:40

and he put it so

11:42

well in this book and I guess

11:44

I relied so long before I had

11:46

a lot of relationships and

11:49

deep relationships. I relied on reading

11:51

to kind of help

11:53

me figure out how other people were going about living

11:57

their lives because you're, you're

12:00

You're expected to figure

12:02

out how to live a

12:04

life and religion and faith

12:06

can help some, but

12:08

for the most part, you're on your own and

12:11

you develop these personal

12:13

philosophies and ideas. And

12:17

it's very frustrating because there's no

12:20

right way to live

12:22

a life and you're constantly figuring

12:24

it out and making adjustments. So

12:26

the books were very helpful to

12:29

me and that's why when I wrote this book, I

12:31

did not take it lightly because I

12:33

have such a high regard for authors

12:35

and books in general that I didn't

12:38

want to. I'd

12:40

been bilked by a number of comedians who

12:42

just typed up their act and

12:44

I just refused to

12:47

be one of those because it just felt

12:49

like a betrayal to me as

12:51

a fan of the comedian and

12:54

then a betrayal of the

12:56

art form of literature and writing

12:58

and memoir. Was

13:00

there a particular chapter in your

13:02

life or event that led

13:05

you to want to write about your early life? Was

13:07

there like a pivotal anecdote

13:11

or something that happened that really

13:13

led to this? I

13:16

think it's just more

13:19

of me realizing that my,

13:21

I hate to call

13:23

them obsessions, I'd rather call them passions. My

13:27

passions are pretty good compass

13:30

for what I write

13:32

well and joke about well and

13:34

so one of my passions

13:38

is just my

13:41

reintroducing ideas from my childhood

13:43

and examining them and sharing

13:47

them. I find it's

13:50

not a universal experience, my

13:52

experience, but the

13:54

overall idea of being a kid and growing

13:56

up and going to school, there's a lot

13:58

of interesting things. section which

14:00

is so hard to find in this

14:03

millennium. But I wouldn't

14:05

say there was one particular

14:07

moment. It was just a

14:09

lot of, again, I keep relying

14:11

on other books. I

14:14

was recently listening to a book

14:16

about the making of Bruce Springsteen's

14:18

Nebraska album, which is... Oh

14:21

yeah. It's one of them. ...and

14:24

this man wrote a book just about that.

14:26

But it was about everything and everything about

14:28

Bruce Springsteen and music and the art. It

14:30

was just, I think it's called Deliver Me

14:32

From Nowhere. Bruce Springsteen was

14:35

saying about his childhood that it destroyed

14:37

him and

14:39

it also made him. And I

14:42

thought, man, I wish that was

14:44

what I had written instead of

14:46

somebody else because that's exactly how

14:49

I would describe it. My childhood

14:51

made me into the frightened, insecure,

14:56

and overly cautious,

15:00

and almost to the point of paranoia

15:02

adult that I was for so

15:05

long. But in many

15:07

ways, it made me into

15:09

the compassionate, empathetic, creative person that

15:11

I am. So it's difficult for

15:13

me to say, I

15:16

wish none of that ever happened. I

15:19

just wish it didn't last as long.

15:22

I guess that's my plea because I

15:24

wouldn't be, I don't think, as human

15:28

or creative as I am because

15:30

you figure out these coping mechanisms.

15:32

And one of them for me

15:34

was to get a lot of

15:37

dopamine and serotonin by entertaining

15:40

people, either within my family or

15:42

at school or on a sports

15:44

team. And that made me feel better.

15:47

It wasn't the answer,

15:49

but it was sort of

15:51

a byproduct of my severe

15:54

anxiety and depression. When

15:57

thinking back on your childhood and And

16:00

like you say, you recorded all these things in

16:02

a kind of mental hard drive. Childhood,

16:06

like you say, last a very long time.

16:08

How did you decide what was going to

16:10

go in the book and what wasn't? Was

16:12

it all about how your your mental health

16:15

was formed later on? Was that the criteria?

16:17

I mean, that was that was part of

16:19

it. I want I wanted to be able

16:21

to. Consider

16:24

these situations that led

16:26

to my undoing. But

16:28

also when you when you write a book,

16:31

you have to select stories

16:35

that pay off or that can

16:37

be described in sort of visual

16:40

terms. It's almost like curating

16:43

a writing a screenplay. And

16:45

so I had to dismiss

16:48

certain things that were difficult

16:50

to describe in words

16:53

or pictures. The

16:56

beauty of the limitations is

16:58

that it's actually so so

17:01

conducive to creativity. If you tell me

17:03

you can write about anything, I won't

17:05

be able to. I won't

17:07

be able to write about anything

17:09

sometimes. It's just I get overwhelmed by

17:11

the choice. But if you say you

17:13

have to stick to this period

17:16

of your life and also these

17:18

stories have to be on theme

17:20

and topic, and they

17:23

also have to have they don't

17:25

necessarily have to have

17:27

a resolution. But if there isn't a

17:29

resolution, it's important to, I guess, point

17:34

it out or recognize it or analyze

17:36

it or examine it in some way

17:38

and try to find what the at

17:41

least what the emotional resolution was to it,

17:43

because certain things are, for instance,

17:46

in fourth grade, I I

17:48

had this great teacher and I was looking

17:51

forward to seeing him again in the next

17:53

year. And I never saw

17:55

him again in the rest of my life. And

17:57

it's something that that's so it was.

18:00

a death that was unresolved. And

18:02

I remember I would almost

18:04

every day I would walk by the office

18:08

or his classroom and think, oh, this will

18:10

be the day he returns. And he just

18:12

never came back. And

18:15

it was really interesting and a

18:17

weird thing because I never mentioned

18:19

it to anyone until I wrote

18:21

the book. I never felt comfortable

18:23

sharing it with anyone because at

18:26

the time it was weird

18:28

to have sort of what would have been

18:30

considered a crush on a teacher. The

18:33

teachers were sort of the

18:36

enemy or the authority figures.

18:39

And then by the time I was

18:41

comfortable sharing it with

18:43

anyone, it didn't seem as important or

18:45

if anybody would listen. I guess part

18:47

of it is it almost reminds

18:49

me of my writing the book almost reminds me

18:51

the first time I went to therapy when I

18:53

was a freshman in college when I had all

18:55

these stories of my life.

18:58

And just at

19:00

that time, just from 16 to 18,

19:02

basically. And I had never shared them

19:04

with anybody. And it was such a

19:07

relief. And that's what I keep coming

19:09

back to regarding writing

19:11

a memoir is most people

19:13

will not write a memoir and

19:15

they will not even keep a

19:17

journal. And I know what their

19:19

reasons are. It's not that easy

19:21

and we're busy all the time.

19:23

But my regret is that I

19:26

waited until I was given a

19:28

contract to write it. It was

19:30

so helpful to put these things down.

19:32

And it was so helpful when I

19:34

would bring these ideas to my therapist and

19:37

go over them and get perspective and

19:39

insight. And so I'm

19:41

brought back again to my favorite author,

19:44

Kurt Vonnegut, who says you should practice

19:46

some kind of art,

19:48

whether it's painting or journals or comedy

19:50

or whatever it is, because it helps

19:52

your soul grow. And I think in

19:55

the case of memoir

19:57

and journaling, I think it's

20:00

It is also a valuable component

20:03

for maintaining or increasing

20:05

mental health. More

20:11

with Gary Gullman about learning from your

20:13

past and about food after the break.

20:24

Back with Gary Gullman, comedian and author

20:27

of the memoir Misfit, Growing Up Awkward

20:29

in the 80s. Something

20:34

that I learned through therapy and I learned

20:37

through writing a memoir actually, because I had

20:39

a memoir that came out a few years

20:41

ago. I think you're in my memoir. It

20:44

was wonderful. I love that book. Oh,

20:46

thank you. What

20:49

happens in childhood forms a lot

20:51

of tendencies that you

20:53

have later on, which is not in

20:55

itself a good thing or a bad thing. Where

20:59

in the fully formed

21:01

Gary of today do

21:03

you see young Gary? What

21:05

are some things that young Gary was doing

21:08

that are like, oh, okay, I'm still doing

21:10

that in this form now? That's

21:13

a great question. I keep

21:17

coming across the expression, the

21:19

child is the father of the man, or

21:22

I'm sure also is the mother or the

21:24

parent of the adult.

21:27

That really resonates with me in

21:29

that it just

21:31

feels so accurate in terms

21:33

of what I've become based on

21:36

my childhood. I

21:38

just know one thing and

21:41

my word, it's not that different, but

21:43

I happened to see a cartoon

21:46

from Sesame Street today on

21:49

Instagram on an

21:51

account called Muppet History. It was about

21:54

an alligator king.

21:57

Try and find it because I think you'll love it. But

22:00

it was a fable and it

22:02

was a moral and it was a song and it

22:04

was funny and it was clever and it was meta.

22:07

And I realized that so

22:10

much of my personality and

22:12

my entertainment interests

22:16

and my

22:18

ideas of

22:20

how much I worship

22:23

at the altar of humor

22:25

and cleverness. And

22:27

just it's beautifully drawn and

22:29

the colors are very soothing.

22:33

Let's drop in a little clip from

22:35

that Sesame Street segment. Gary's remembering the

22:38

Alligator King and his seven sons. The

22:41

seven sons of the Alligator

22:43

King, but the thoughtful little

22:45

wolf. He said, Daddy

22:48

appears to me like you could

22:50

use a little help. But

22:53

the Alligator King to his

22:55

seven sons, you win

22:57

the crowd. You didn't

22:59

bring me to the server a piece of

23:01

butter. You helped me out when I was

23:04

down. Okay,

23:08

back to Gary Gullman. I didn't have

23:10

a lot of attention. My mother was

23:13

a very busy single mom and

23:15

was the overwrought. And so I was

23:18

spending a lot of time with Sesame Street and

23:20

Electric Company and Mr. Rogers in a show

23:22

called Zoom. And

23:26

when I was watching that today, I got the

23:28

same feelings I got as a kid. Just an

23:30

idea of a comfort and a recognition

23:33

of this beauty. I didn't realize it

23:35

was being taught a lesson, but

23:37

I understood that this was coming from

23:40

a place of peace

23:42

and warmth and

23:44

thoughtfulness. And it just brought

23:47

me a similar comfort today that brought

23:49

me so long ago. And I'm

23:52

sure there was as much chaos

23:54

and hostility around that show as there

23:56

is around everyone now. but

24:00

it was, it remains such

24:02

an oasis around the insanity.

24:05

But there's just a lot

24:08

of what I got into as a kid

24:10

that I lost touch with through

24:13

my depressive years because I didn't have

24:15

the energy nor

24:19

the capacity for joy. There

24:23

were a lot of years of ahydonia where

24:26

I could have played

24:28

basketball all day long and I wouldn't have gotten

24:30

any joy out of it and I would have

24:32

seen it as a chore. And now I play

24:34

basketball and it's just, I mean,

24:36

it's not exhilarating. I'm not giggling

24:38

the entire time or jumping for

24:40

joy, but I am recognized

24:43

this thing that has

24:45

zen components and

24:47

also cardiovascular health involved

24:49

and also this idea

24:52

of sticking with something and

24:54

improving and seeing improvement like that.

24:56

That was something that always brought me great

24:59

joy growing up. And I think

25:01

as adults, we find what we

25:03

do for a living and

25:05

sometimes we don't even try to get better at

25:08

that, but sometimes it's the only

25:10

thing we try to get better at. And

25:12

it's just, I think we're

25:14

missing out and we're limiting

25:16

ourselves. And I understand a

25:19

lot of what kept me

25:21

from doing that was that I

25:24

didn't have the energy because of my depression and

25:26

also it would have brought no joy because of

25:29

my depression. So it was not a

25:31

winner, but I do know

25:33

that subconsciously over the years, my

25:36

brain was telling me to get back to

25:38

playing basketball like I did when I was

25:40

a kid, because when I was a kid,

25:43

it brought me self-esteem and

25:46

it brought me around people and

25:48

kids my age and older kids.

25:51

And I remember just

25:53

being outside in the sun, which is

25:56

very healthy and sweating and it was

25:58

just such an ideal. deal,

26:01

antidepressant. And

26:03

I just didn't recognize it as

26:05

that as a kid. And I was driven in a

26:07

way to be

26:11

competitive and get better than other

26:13

people rather than just competing with

26:16

myself and improving and reaching

26:18

my potential, which I got

26:20

discouraged and didn't do. And

26:22

I think reaching

26:25

my potential has become

26:27

a much more reasonable goal than

26:30

AIM stardom. And those sort

26:33

of sad ideas that had

26:35

captured me when I was a teenager,

26:37

because I thought

26:39

in very broad terms

26:41

that that was the answer to why I

26:43

didn't feel good about myself, was that I

26:46

hadn't done anything great.

26:48

And the idea that you have

26:50

to earn your self-esteem

26:52

is kind of an American

26:54

idea. Or maybe it's

26:58

just a human idea, and

27:00

it just couldn't be more

27:02

wrong or damaging. As

27:05

Mr. Rogers drummed into me every

27:07

day, it's just enough

27:09

to be you. Of course, it

27:12

sounds maudlin and preachy and sugarcoated

27:15

and Pollyanna, but I think

27:18

it's basic. Yeah, that's

27:20

one that I've struggled with a lot too,

27:22

this idea that you didn't... And

27:25

I think that's why I got into

27:27

so much performing and media and theater

27:29

and everything else is that I

27:32

could get that acclaim that

27:34

would validate me. That if I

27:36

got this many listeners

27:38

or this many downloads or this

27:41

standing ovation somewhere that then I

27:44

was worthy. And I've really struggled with

27:46

that later in life because I think,

27:49

okay, that's fucked up. You were already good enough. You

27:54

didn't need to earn personhood. You had

27:56

personhood. It was both right. But

27:59

then also, Like, but God,

28:01

all that striving has got me to a

28:03

lot of places that I'm glad that I'm

28:05

in. And so

28:07

I kind of struggle with, well, was it worth

28:10

it? You know, like to, to get all those

28:12

things that, that now you want, get to these

28:14

places you want to go and meet these people

28:16

you want to meet, but be kind of fucked

28:18

up as a result. Yeah,

28:20

it's, it's true. It, it, and

28:24

again, it's that idea of it destroyed

28:26

me, but it also made me. So

28:28

I would, I wouldn't have had this

28:31

driver or motivation, but

28:34

I guess the thing is

28:37

that I, we

28:39

didn't have to pay as much for it

28:42

psychically and emotionally to get

28:45

there. Our self-esteem shouldn't have been on

28:47

the line when we were spreading these

28:50

things. And there are people who I

28:52

think strive for things and want things

28:54

and ask for things and the, and

28:57

their self-esteem is not on the line,

28:59

depending on the results. And it's no,

29:01

it's so freeing. I think Steve Martin

29:03

in a, in a documentary,

29:06

and I think in his book,

29:08

he also talked about the relaxed

29:10

mind and how creative that can,

29:12

that can be that this mind

29:14

that is not trying to see

29:16

what works and fighting for achievement.

29:20

It just creates and it's

29:22

a pure form of creativity

29:24

and, and the creation is

29:26

purer and, and with less

29:28

desperation on it. How

29:31

do you, kind of a deep question

29:34

here, I'm trying to find the right way to phrase it. How

29:37

do you live alongside all those

29:39

childhood memories? I mean, now that

29:41

you've written them into a

29:44

book and a lot of people write them

29:46

into books and people, people do their own

29:48

things, but it's, you know, there's, there's. Wonderful

29:50

memories. There are, you know, there's

29:52

the issue of regret. There's the

29:54

issue of remorse. Um, and

29:57

it's, how do you live with that?

30:00

childhood as an

30:02

adult? And have you figured out how to do

30:04

that peacefully? Man, that

30:06

is a great question. And you asked

30:08

it perfectly. I mean, there is at

30:10

least one point during

30:14

every day, or I would say five times

30:16

a week, where I just cringe.

30:19

I cringe at something obnoxious that

30:21

I said or something mean

30:23

that I said, or unfortunately,

30:26

I never really feel that sad

30:28

about anything that happened to

30:30

me anymore. I can get angry

30:33

sometimes, but more I cringe at the

30:36

way I treated somebody

30:38

in second grade or

30:41

some obnoxious thing I bragged that I said

30:43

in high school

30:46

or something. And I then

30:49

take a deep breath and

30:51

say, well, you're not alone. You're not

30:53

alone. And

30:57

I say this all the time. One of the

30:59

most helpful pieces of

31:01

philosophy to me is Alanis Morris

31:03

sets You Learn, where

31:06

she just says these things about

31:08

sticking your foot in your mouth

31:10

or biting off more than you

31:12

can chew and recommending it. And

31:14

it's true. And I guess it's

31:16

a matter of me getting some

31:19

perspective on failure and understanding

31:21

how important failure is in

31:24

so many aspects

31:27

of life in terms of my creativity, but

31:29

also in terms of my learning

31:31

valuable lessons about how to live and how

31:33

to behave and how to approach my

31:36

life. So I think as

31:38

I look back, a lot of times

31:40

I say, Okay, I made these mistakes, but

31:42

I learned from them. And then again, reading,

31:46

if you read memoirs and

31:48

novels, you're seeing that people

31:50

have made complete messes of

31:53

their lives. And maybe they

31:55

didn't get a handle on it.

31:57

Maybe they didn't find redemption on

32:00

it but we can learn

32:02

from that and say either

32:04

one, everyone fucks

32:06

up, I'm not alone in

32:08

this, and

32:11

they've shared their story and

32:13

that it makes me feel empathy towards

32:15

them but also empathy towards myself and

32:18

also other people that have

32:20

dealt with the same things like I'm

32:22

reading James McBride's memoir called The Color

32:24

of Water and he's talking about being

32:27

16 or 17 and just being

32:32

kind of a hooligan like getting into

32:34

trouble and causing trouble and vandalizing and

32:38

so sometimes I'll see teenagers acting up

32:40

in the in the neighborhood on the

32:42

subway and it gives me perspective and

32:44

I say oh this is just what teenagers

32:47

do and sometimes they're troubled

32:49

and sometimes they have just

32:52

a bad day. Should we have condemned

32:55

James McBride for the worst

32:59

exploits of his teenage hood which was

33:02

basically being drunk in

33:04

public he was capable of

33:06

great things and which makes

33:08

me think that any of these teenagers all

33:10

of these teenagers are capable of great things.

33:12

I don't know if that's the right reason

33:14

to have empathy I guess it's just that

33:17

we don't know anything about the

33:19

the person we just see the actions

33:22

and we judge and we feel

33:24

that they'll never learn and

33:27

it's just something that's been going on. I'm

33:29

sure if we had seen Bruce

33:31

Springsteen riding his motorcycle with long

33:34

hair around town we

33:36

would have thought that he was

33:38

an aimless hippie or something and

33:41

it turns out this man has

33:43

written lyrics and music that has

33:45

made life justifiable for

33:48

many. Something

33:52

that that struck me

33:54

when I was reading your book and

33:56

talking about childhood your childhood is

33:59

that you did have a lot

34:01

of love and sympathy for

34:03

the character you are writing about. You

34:05

had a lot of understanding for

34:09

Gary as a character in a book.

34:11

It was written very sympathetically, and it

34:13

made me think of inner child work,

34:16

of the idea that like, okay, if

34:18

there was a child in

34:20

that same situation that you're describing, would

34:22

you put them down? Would you make

34:25

fun of them? Would you condemn them?

34:27

No, you would be kind

34:29

and sympathetic. You would love that kid. You would

34:31

tell them things were going to be okay, that this

34:33

is something that you can get

34:35

through. Have you done inner child

34:38

work in your own therapy?

34:40

Have you gone into that

34:42

kind of thinking before? Not

34:45

explicitly, but my therapist now and

34:47

my therapist in college and a

34:49

therapist I had for a few

34:51

years in Los

34:53

Angeles when I lived in Los Angeles,

34:55

a guy who was really helpful. We've

34:58

spent a lot of time because I spent a lot

35:00

of time in my in my head re-examining

35:03

these childhood

35:05

traumas and issues.

35:07

And without exception, these

35:09

these men who I

35:12

trusted and I admired

35:14

viewed this kid in

35:17

much more compassionate and

35:19

generous terms than I ever did.

35:21

And I found that so helpful.

35:24

And I sort of did

35:26

my best to adopt their

35:29

attitudes towards my childhood

35:32

self. And so I would bring these things up.

35:34

I would say I made fun of this girl

35:36

when I was in third grade,

35:38

and I made her cry. And I

35:40

disrupted a movie at a movie theater

35:43

and irritated the people sitting in front

35:45

of me. And when I was in

35:48

my dark estates, those ideas

35:51

were enough that I felt that I was

35:53

not worthy of living anymore. It

35:56

made me suicidal. Like I was a bad person.

35:58

I had done these horrible things. things,

36:00

it was unforgivable. And

36:02

then these people, these

36:04

objective people that I trusted, were able

36:07

to tell me that, that yes,

36:09

you shouldn't have made fun of that girl, and you

36:11

should have behaved better at the movie theater when you

36:13

were 16 or 17. But

36:16

you were you were 10 and 17.

36:18

And these aren't capital crimes.

36:21

And, and I'm sure that person

36:24

would forgive you. And but more

36:26

importantly, you need to forgive yourself. And that

36:28

that self forgiveness is such a, such

36:31

a crucial component in mental

36:34

health, but also just in in

36:36

maintaining your self esteem going forward.

36:39

And, and it also enables you

36:41

to be more compassionate

36:43

with others when you're when you're compassionate

36:46

with yourself. But I think

36:48

a lot of people lose sight of how, how

36:50

we treat ourselves in our in our

36:53

head, or just in terms of how

36:55

we we behave.

36:57

I had a friend

36:59

who was convinced he

37:01

didn't deserve better than a

37:04

single room occupancy dwelling,

37:07

he could have afforded to live better, but he

37:09

felt he was he was such a screw up

37:11

that he didn't deserve any better than that. And

37:13

and so he was punishing himself. And it just,

37:16

and I don't think he would have

37:18

even considered himself depressed or anxious or

37:20

anything like that. He just had this,

37:22

this idea that he wasn't deserving. And

37:25

it's a very common human

37:27

adult issue where we're,

37:30

we're not forgiving, we're not generous, we're

37:32

not compassionate with our with our own

37:34

self. Just

37:39

ahead, comedy and food, comedy about

37:41

food. Here's a little more from

37:44

Gary special born on third base.

37:47

I'm going to use an analogy to

37:51

clarify this. The

37:55

the tart is

37:57

to the pop tart. as

38:00

the grizzly bear is

38:02

to the gummy bear.

38:11

That's a really strong analogy.

38:15

And the irony of me coming

38:17

up with such an apt analogy

38:22

is that I flunked

38:25

out of analogy school.

38:29

And flunking out

38:32

of analogy school is

38:34

like... What's

38:53

your favorite thing about a black man comedian and author Gary

38:55

Gullman whose latest special is Born on Third

38:58

Base? It's on HBO.

39:01

Comedy question for you. In

39:05

your special Born on Third Base, there

39:07

is some discussion of

39:10

pop tarts. You have

39:12

told IndieWire that at one point

39:14

you were a food-based comedian. Yes!

39:19

Why was that? Part

39:22

of it was there are different stages

39:25

in a comedy career. One

39:28

of the stages is that nobody

39:31

knows who you are. They don't

39:33

have any context. They don't assume you're going to

39:35

be funny. In fact, they assume you're not going

39:37

to be funny. And

39:40

you are required to

39:43

be funny very quickly and

39:45

in a way that the

39:47

average mainstream comedy club goer

39:49

would get. When

39:53

I first started it was like your

39:55

network television viewer. Not that I was

39:57

capable of doing that. of

40:00

being anything but lower middlebrow, but

40:03

the audiences were just not there for it. And

40:06

then as I started to

40:08

make jokes about food early on, I

40:11

found that one, it was something everybody recognized,

40:15

and two, that a lot of these

40:17

areas, at least the specific foods, my

40:20

takes were original, so

40:22

that there weren't other medians, because that was also a problem

40:24

when I was starting out. I had this, and

40:26

this was very positive, I had this insistent that

40:28

everything I say were maybe

40:31

original and not, because you would often go on

40:33

on a show where six or seven other comedians

40:35

were, and a lot of them

40:37

had already talked about dating or drunk driving or

40:39

sex or pot or things like that. And

40:44

so I wanted to choose things that it would

40:46

be the first thing, first person

40:48

to talk about that subject. So food

40:51

early on was very helpful. Also

40:53

talking about my elementary school,

40:57

that was something that people could relate to

40:59

and was fairly original. But

41:02

then I noticed there were other

41:04

comedians who were talking about

41:06

food a lot. And so

41:08

I thought, I don't wanna be mistaken

41:10

for them, and

41:12

I don't want to be considered

41:15

unoriginal, because I'm also talking about the same

41:17

thing. And by that time, I had a

41:19

little bit more of an audience, because I'd

41:21

been on Last Comic Standing, so I could

41:24

start to talk about things that were

41:27

a little bit more obscure or esoteric.

41:29

And that's how eventually, probably in around

41:31

2013, I

41:34

talked about this thing that I had written in

41:36

my notebook like 10 years earlier about

41:39

how the states got their abbreviations. And

41:42

then that brought me an audience

41:45

that was into things like that,

41:47

like sort of whimsical, absurdist humor.

41:50

Our Canada. Yeah, and then it was off to

41:53

the races, and I could talk about anything I

41:55

wanted. And luckily, they were also a group of

41:57

people who seemed to be, I don't

41:59

know whether it's... an intersection

42:01

of education or an intersection

42:04

of sensitive people, but they

42:06

were comfortable with

42:08

me talking about my

42:10

depression. And

42:12

then that, to me, that

42:15

was sort of the crowning

42:17

achievement of my

42:20

comedic odyssey was

42:22

to make this thing that was very difficult

42:24

for me to share, to make

42:26

that funny. And

42:29

so at this point, I feel

42:31

like if I were to die tomorrow, I fulfilled

42:34

some promise and some

42:36

potential and served a purpose. And

42:40

now I still try to have,

42:42

I still try to make

42:44

it kind of difficult in that I try

42:46

to talk about things that are unusual or

42:49

difficult to talk about or hard to make

42:51

funny, but that's only because I've found just

42:53

from experimenting that I like a little bit

42:55

of a challenge, not an

42:58

enormous challenge that may break me, but

43:00

a challenge where it's just not easy.

43:05

You get tired of, if

43:07

you're a baseball hitter, I'm sure you get

43:09

tired of seeing slow pitches that come right

43:11

over the plate. It would be boring. So

43:14

you like to see a curve ball every once

43:16

in a while to challenge yourself. So

43:18

that's where I am now. But

43:20

yeah, I was afraid of being labeled a

43:22

food comic, which I don't even think that's

43:24

a thing. And there's like dirty

43:27

comics and crowd work comics. I

43:29

don't think there's a food

43:32

comic comedy genre on Netflix.

43:35

Well there's a story that I've

43:37

always loved that when Weird

43:40

Al Yankovic wanted to do a song,

43:43

a parody of Nirvana of Smells

43:45

Like Teen Spirit, he actually

43:48

met with, I think you've called Kurt

43:50

Cobain or he met him backstage somewhere

43:53

and he said, I'd like to do this parody

43:55

of the song. Is that okay with you? And

43:58

Kurt said, yeah, of course, God would be awesome. honored,

44:00

that weird Al song, is it going

44:02

to be about food? And

44:07

Al said, what do you mean? He said, well,

44:09

you have so many songs about food. And Al

44:12

said, I didn't realize that I was a, I

44:14

did food material. A

44:17

food guy. Yeah.

44:20

So there is, there is a food

44:22

genre. I think. And you and Al

44:25

were both in it to some extent.

44:27

Interesting. Do

44:29

you, do you ever,

44:34

what's it like to carry this issue

44:37

of depression with you? Because, you know, you

44:39

made such a big splash with your special,

44:41

the Great Depression, what's

44:43

it like to always, to some extent, be

44:46

the depression guy? Um,

44:49

I think it's a

44:51

reward. I,

44:54

I really, while I

44:56

was dealing with it, I always hoped that I

44:58

would be able to come out the other side

45:00

and be able to make it funny and make

45:02

people understand what it feels like and also make

45:04

people who suffered with it feel

45:07

a little bit better and less alone. And

45:09

so when I do meet

45:11

and greets after my show or I sign my books

45:13

or I read my, my messages,

45:17

there are people telling me on

45:20

a daily basis how the, the

45:22

special and the openness helped

45:25

them either it allowed

45:27

them to talk to their, in some

45:29

cases, they'll have a child who suffered from

45:31

it and they'll understand where their child was

45:33

coming from and what they were going through.

45:36

Other times people who suffer from it will say,

45:38

I showed this to my family or my wife

45:40

or my girlfriend or boyfriend or partner.

45:43

And, and they understood. And

45:46

we've probably discussed this before. There's

45:48

such a, it's very frustrating. And,

45:51

and David Foster Wallace put this so

45:53

well in a, in a short story

45:56

he wrote called the depressed person,

45:59

and it's. It's this frustration of the

46:01

limitation of our language to

46:04

describe how it feels. People

46:07

telling me that I made it easier

46:10

to get past that hurdle.

46:12

I never believed I did

46:14

it perfectly. I

46:16

must have gotten close, but I'm

46:19

just so grateful for that. I don't

46:22

want to

46:25

overstate the value, but

46:28

I'm so grateful that I

46:30

was able to participate in

46:33

this, along with Maria Bamford

46:35

and you and Chris Gethard

46:37

and Aparna Nanshala. Just this

46:40

idea that comedy can be

46:42

helpful in this way and

46:45

that people now

46:47

come to me and they thank

46:49

me and some people

46:51

will say, you got

46:53

me to do this, you got me to do that. And

46:55

it's like, no, I gave you a

46:59

model of somebody who

47:01

tried some of these things, and

47:04

then you did all the hard

47:06

work. I spoke about it

47:09

and I was compensated for that in countless

47:11

ways. Most

47:16

importantly, it just makes me feel

47:18

worthwhile. But I

47:22

hope the people know how strong

47:24

they are because it's, I

47:27

always say, you got to be a good patient, but

47:29

that's not easy. It's not easy to be a good

47:31

patient because just like any disorder,

47:36

there's a lot working against you. It's

47:40

not easy and it requires so much

47:42

strength and willpower and dedication. Also, that

47:44

self forgiveness because there are days you

47:46

are going to stay in bed and

47:49

feel terrible. And the real strength is

47:52

making it last maybe three days instead

47:54

of nine or whatever it takes. It's

47:58

just hard. And

48:00

I happen to have a situation

48:04

where nothing horrific

48:06

happened. I didn't lose a

48:08

loved one while

48:11

I was recovering. I lost

48:13

a pet and it threw me off course for

48:15

a while, but I learned

48:17

something from this recovery, which

48:19

was that don't wait until

48:22

you've been in bed for two weeks to

48:24

call your psychiatrist. Maybe after

48:26

a day in bed, set up an

48:28

appointment and tell him

48:30

how you're feeling and that's something

48:33

that I just, I waited until

48:35

the next appointment. By the time

48:37

the next appointment came up, I

48:39

was so deep and so far

48:41

behind that it just, it was,

48:43

it made it that much harder

48:45

and I had been white knuckling and it just,

48:48

it was counterproductive. Hmm.

48:52

I've talked with Chris Gethard about this

48:54

and when he did his show about

48:57

his own mental health journey, he

49:00

talked about doing Q and A's after the

49:02

performances and he stopped doing them after a

49:04

while because it was hard not

49:06

to take on psychic damage

49:09

from people relating to the work that

49:11

he did from people opening up about

49:13

the worst thing that's ever happened to

49:16

them in the scariest moment in, in

49:18

their lives with their mental health. And I've, I've

49:21

run into this a little bit myself. Have you

49:23

run into that where it's, it's

49:25

like hearing the darkest parts

49:27

of people's lives over and over,

49:29

although they're offered in the

49:32

best of faith, can still

49:34

take on damage for you? No,

49:36

that's a, that's a, it's a

49:38

great question. Also very interesting that you mentioned

49:40

Chris because Judd Apatow

49:43

and Mike Bonfiglio were the producers

49:45

on, on Chris's show too. And,

49:49

and so after we filmed

49:52

my special, Mike

49:54

reached out to Chris and said, could

49:56

you talk to Gary about some of

49:58

the things you've experienced afterwards? that he's

50:01

prepared. And so Mike was generous

50:04

to do that. And then Chris was generous

50:06

to meet with me for breakfast.

50:09

And he showed me some of the emails and

50:12

messages he had received. And

50:14

he said, I can't

50:16

spend very much time interacting with

50:18

these because they're devastating and they

50:20

bring me down. Now, I get

50:24

a lot of messages, but fortunately,

50:26

and I think it's because my

50:28

special did not talk

50:30

a lot about any of my, it

50:33

didn't talk a lot about my suicide

50:37

ideations. I

50:39

mean, I didn't mention it. And

50:41

I did not, until the book, talk

50:44

about my very, in

50:47

retrospect, comical

50:50

suicide attempts, one

50:53

involves putting a plastic bag over

50:55

my head from a toaster and

50:57

realizing it was a

51:00

sleeve as my head emerged from

51:02

the other side of the plastic.

51:04

And it was something I was

51:06

embarrassed to share, but

51:10

also thought was, at the time,

51:12

so private and so upsetting and

51:15

kind of embarrassing and heartbreaking to

51:17

me that I wasn't able to

51:19

share it. I

51:22

saw that I could tell an

51:25

audience almost anything and they wouldn't

51:27

recoil with horror

51:30

or fear from the great depressed. So I

51:32

felt comfortable sharing that in the book. And

51:35

so what I'm saying is that the people who

51:37

share their stories with me, there

51:39

are some people who've attempted

51:42

suicide or considered suicide, but

51:44

it is not in that

51:47

magnitude as Chris's was. So it's

51:49

not as debilitating to me as

51:51

it was for Chris, because

51:54

the message I'm getting aren't as dark. But

51:58

for the most part, I'm not as most

52:00

part have people telling me they got on

52:02

medication or went back to medication or they

52:04

went to psychiatric ward

52:06

or they went to

52:08

ECT or there I get

52:11

a lot of messages from from psychiatrists

52:13

and psychologists telling me that they either

52:15

shared the special or shared

52:17

the components of the special about

52:20

ECT and and

52:22

medication with their patients and

52:24

I mean that's a that's a

52:26

dream come true I couldn't have written a better a better

52:29

outcome for my suffering

52:32

I was

52:34

it worth it in in those terms

52:36

yes it definitely was again I wish

52:38

it was shorter and and it wasn't

52:40

as severe but if you

52:42

told me okay for two and a half years

52:45

you will you will suffer just

52:47

stay alive because at the end

52:49

it will it will provide solace

52:52

and a path to other people

52:54

I would say all right I

52:56

would have to say

52:58

yes okay well

53:02

keep up the good work Gary the book is

53:04

misfit growing up awkward in the 80s the

53:07

special is born on third base the

53:10

guy is Gary Gullman Gary thank you thank

53:12

you and thank you for liking my hat

53:14

it was it's an awesome hat thank you

53:16

it was so nice to see you and

53:18

and talk to you again and

53:20

I probably say

53:22

this in every time we talk

53:24

but our first conversation

53:27

on the hilarious world of depression

53:29

was a was a major component

53:31

in my recovery and I'll never

53:34

forget that my

53:37

thinks as always and constantly

53:40

to Gary Gullman we exist

53:43

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53:58

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Mode is made possible by your contributions.

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Papuchik. I'm John Mo. Bye now.

55:18

I'm always falling off of this

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town. Building

55:22

wings on the day death.

55:26

I am figuring things out.

55:30

Living on, living on, living

55:32

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55:36

I'm on the reason. Living on the

55:38

reason. I can't believe it. Living

55:45

on the answer. Maybe that's no

55:47

answer. How do you keep on

55:49

doing stuff? Hi,

55:54

this is Laney from Milwaukee,

55:56

Wisconsin. You are so, so

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