0:01

Some of us, not all of

0:03

us, but I'd say most of us, have

0:06

to, at some point, go to work.

0:09

Maybe an office, maybe a restaurant, a

0:11

school, a hospital. There

0:13

are almost always co-workers involved once

0:16

you get there. There is typically,

0:18

for almost everyone, a boss or

0:20

several bosses. Even if

0:22

you work from home, there are generally

0:25

other people who exist in your work

0:27

world, faces on a

0:29

Zoom call or data bits forming

0:31

an email or two or a

0:34

billion emails. There is

0:36

very often a bureaucracy in play

0:38

at work, sometimes an efficient one,

0:41

sometimes a very frustrating one. And

0:44

I'll say it, and I've said it before because

0:46

it's important to remember, work is

0:49

weird. Jobs

0:51

are weird. We live

0:54

in a society where survival

0:56

means work, exchanging our labor

0:58

for many hours, doing pretty

1:00

much the same thing over

1:02

and over again each week

1:05

in order to have the food, shelter,

1:07

and clothing we require. Not

1:10

saying it's unnatural, but

1:12

to be fair, I'm probably implying

1:14

that it's unnatural. The

1:17

whole work thing can be challenging, even

1:19

more challenging if you have an

1:21

interesting mind, a tricky brain, a

1:23

mental health condition that makes you

1:25

function differently than the normies. If

1:28

there are even normies. I'm

1:31

going to try to help you out with all that.

1:34

This week, that's part of my job. I'm at work

1:36

right now. I make a podcast. It's

1:39

Depression Mode. I'm John Moe. I'm glad you're

1:41

here. Megan

1:50

Delp is the Director of Workplace

1:52

Mental Health for NAMI, the National

1:54

Alliance on Mental Illness. She's

1:56

here. We're here to try to

1:59

shed a little wisdom. and insight into

2:01

the whole work and mental

2:03

health issue. Megan

2:09

Delp, welcome to Depression Mode. Thank

2:11

you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I

2:14

have some great questions from our listeners to get

2:16

to, but I have some questions of my own

2:18

too. So let's

2:21

say I just got a new job,

2:23

office job, big organization, totally new, don't

2:26

know anybody there. And I

2:28

also have some mental health issues that

2:30

create challenges in my day-to-day functioning. What

2:33

would you recommend I do about making a

2:35

plan? I

2:37

would definitely start with your

2:40

provider. So whoever you are

2:42

already working with on those

2:44

mental health challenges, talking

2:47

with them about what accommodations

2:49

you might need, what training you might

2:51

need, but really starting

2:53

with that provider, that person that's already safe,

2:56

you already know them, you have

2:58

that relationship built. If you're starting

3:01

a new job, you're kind of just

3:03

figuring things out as you go there. You

3:05

don't know people are safe yet. And

3:08

so starting with that provider is always a good

3:10

safe bet. And

3:12

then as you get more comfortable in that job,

3:14

as you meet new people, as you kind of

3:16

feel your way through, you can start saying, okay,

3:19

this supervisor that I have now, they do feel safe. I

3:22

do feel like I could actually be honest with them. They've

3:24

shared about their mental health. Great.

3:27

That means it's safe to share about mine. If it's

3:30

not feeling like that supervisor might be

3:32

the safest person, then you

3:35

might want to go more the human

3:37

resources department. If you're feeling like you

3:39

need mental health accommodations, or if you

3:41

need that extra support, human resources might

3:43

be the safer bet. And

3:47

what legal rights does a person have

3:49

when in the workplace with a

3:51

mental disorder? What kind of

3:53

discrimination laws are even on the books in

3:55

a situation like that? Absolutely. So

3:58

a lot of people are unaware that. But

4:00

mental health conditions cannot be discriminated

4:02

against just like any physical health

4:06

condition you might have or physical health

4:08

limitation, whatever there is. There

4:12

are legal protections there for people.

4:16

And so going to a resource

4:18

online like the Job Accommodation Network to

4:20

really learn about your rights, to

4:22

learn about what you are allowed to

4:25

ask for and what you need to

4:27

be given as an employee,

4:30

that can be a great place to start. I

4:33

will say there are some sticky

4:35

points that come along with that.

4:37

For example, most employers will

4:40

require some amount of

4:42

documentation there, which usually

4:45

means disclosing a diagnosis.

4:48

Whether or not that means there's symptoms

4:50

that are revealed

4:52

or if it's just a diagnosis,

4:55

you know, it really varies employer by

4:57

employer, but it can

4:59

get a little sticky and it is

5:02

sensitive information so just being aware that

5:04

that is typically what an

5:06

employer will ask for is definitely

5:08

important. You mentioned

5:11

getting a read on your supervisor, trying

5:13

to figure out if

5:15

they're amenable or not. People

5:18

are hard to read. What should people be

5:20

looking for before

5:22

they be vultured and before

5:24

they trust someone? Yes.

5:27

So at NAMI, in our stigma free initiative,

5:29

when we train managers in

5:31

our corporate partnerships, we

5:34

always tell them that they need to lead

5:36

by example. So are they taking care of their

5:38

own mental health? Are they signing off at the

5:40

end of the day? Actually staying off at

5:42

the end of the day? Are they

5:44

taking care of their health? Are they asking

5:47

us how we feel during the day? Are

5:50

they asking us how our stress levels are? It's

5:53

really just seeing the person and

5:55

saying like how are they managing

5:57

themselves And how are they inviting

5:59

me? The manage myself as

6:01

an employee. Or the encouraging

6:03

me to be healthy. Or the encouraging

6:05

me to take breaks to really take

6:08

a vacation and actually signed off. Or.

6:10

Are. They really encouraging. You know you

6:12

need a enter your emails the matter

6:15

when they come in. Can I reach

6:17

my vacation? You know this. There are

6:19

those differences you see in. As

6:21

supervisor who is encouraging healthy

6:23

behaviors versus one who might

6:25

not be. Or

6:29

was for some questions from our

6:31

lives. Since

6:33

I'm on be free off work

6:35

due to an unexpected depressive episode

6:37

currently just shared with my supervisor,

6:40

my allergies flare up. Curious

6:43

what the risks and pros are being

6:45

transparent with higher ups regarding the real

6:48

issue would play of experience. Negative consequences

6:50

were my disclosure was then used against

6:52

me and past place employment filed by

6:54

want to be honest. I'm. Fearful

6:57

as well. What would you suggest to

6:59

this person? Yeah that

7:01

is it is a it. Tricky.

7:03

Situation as you mentioned, there

7:06

can be ramifications to sharing,

7:08

and it is unfortunately the

7:10

reality that we live in

7:12

it really. You. Know

7:14

taking the time to know your.

7:17

Supervisor. And like you said, your. Brand.

7:20

New they are so it's really

7:22

hard to know if it's safe

7:24

if the if the A of

7:26

hr well and be understanding if

7:28

there might be recommendations. If not

7:30

unfortunately with. Something. Like disclosing

7:32

a mental health condition or

7:35

symptom player at it really

7:37

is very specific to the

7:39

workplace that you are in

7:41

and sell it. As

7:43

much as I want to say. Yeah, go

7:45

for it to stand up for. Yourself, ally

7:47

yourself so it does come with risk

7:49

and we want to be. Careful.

7:52

That we aren't putting ourselves in

7:55

a really negative situation. Yeah,

7:58

I do. listener mentions

8:01

calling in sick and another person says,

8:04

well, I often wonder what constitutes the

8:07

mental health equivalent of influenza,

8:09

that line where you decide you're too ill to

8:12

go into work that day. It's

8:15

tricky. If you're sneezing your

8:17

head off and you have a 103-degree

8:20

fever, of course you don't go in,

8:22

but what's the mental health boundary

8:26

on that, do you think? You

8:28

know, I actually kind of don't think

8:31

that there is a boundary. I love to think

8:33

of it more as what

8:35

do you need in order to stay

8:37

mentally well? So maybe the mental health

8:39

day is actually preventative, like you're starting

8:42

to notice maybe you're being

8:44

a little bit more irritable with

8:46

your colleagues, maybe you're avoiding your

8:48

emails a little bit, and

8:51

starting to know like, hey, I might need a break.

8:53

And before I get to the levels where I need

8:55

multiple days off, let me just take it the day,

8:58

you know, go for a walk outside, just take care

9:00

of my mental health. So

9:02

it could even be preventative to take care

9:04

of your mental health to take the day

9:06

off. But in terms of quote unquote, how

9:08

sick do you need to be? I don't

9:12

know that there is a

9:15

good answer for that. Like, I don't know how

9:17

sick enough we have to be to say we

9:19

deserve something like a day off. I

9:22

think if we're struggling, that's

9:24

the that is the clue that we need

9:26

to take care of ourselves. And maybe

9:28

that means time off. Yeah,

9:32

it's it's tricky though, because you

9:35

think, well, in a perfect

9:37

world, I would tell people, yeah, my

9:39

depression is really acting up, or

9:41

I'm having a complete panic

9:44

attack, you know, around the clock,

9:46

it's a mess. But

9:49

we don't live in a perfect

9:51

world, in a world where we

9:53

get judged on things with

9:56

our minds differently than we get

9:58

judged with a broken heart. and

10:00

leg. It's balancing

10:03

how things should work with how

10:05

things probably do work

10:07

sometimes. 100%. And

10:09

yeah, we do have to

10:12

be careful with what we disclose. And

10:14

as a therapist, I always tell my clients,

10:16

it's your information to do with what you

10:19

want. You never have to disclose, you never

10:21

have to tell anyone what's going on with

10:23

you, unless you feel safe to do

10:25

so, unless you want to do so. And so

10:29

we are allowed to keep all of that

10:31

information to ourselves. So of course, there might

10:34

come the time when if you

10:36

have to apply for short term disability or FMLA,

10:39

like some of those do

10:41

require disclosure. But

10:43

until we get to that level, we

10:46

are perfectly valid in keeping that

10:48

information safe and sound in

10:50

our own brains. Hmm.

10:53

You do a lot of work with

10:55

NAMI, obviously, in your role there and

10:57

you're in private practice. What

10:59

do you see, especially since

11:02

COVID is what I'm wondering about,

11:04

because it seemed to change everything

11:06

regarding how we work,

11:08

where we work, what we're doing, what

11:11

a workplace even means. What

11:14

are the mental health issues that you're running

11:16

across the most, both with NAMI and in

11:18

your practice? So

11:20

COVID definitely brought

11:22

into crystal clear clarity that

11:24

we are struggling with

11:27

our mental health as a nation. And

11:29

COVID definitely exacerbated that. And

11:32

now we are seeing the

11:34

ramifications of having to shift

11:36

our entire culture. And

11:39

there are a ton of pros to

11:41

working remotely to working hybrid. But

11:44

there are also things that we

11:46

still need to figure out. So

11:48

if someone is working totally remotely,

11:50

they've lost the community connection of

11:52

going into the office. They've gained

11:54

time, they've gained energy, they've Gained

11:57

a ton of things that are amazing. I Benefit from

11:59

that every day. No, and

12:01

we are still humans who need

12:03

that community connection. So how are

12:05

we the rebuilding a community in

12:07

a more remote or hybrid structure?

12:10

We do just need that human

12:12

to human connection. I think we're

12:14

still trying to figure that out.

12:16

Ah, you know, do meetings are

12:18

great. But. There is something

12:20

to be said for actually standing

12:22

or sitting next to a person

12:24

and having a chat with them

12:26

from. So definitely a lack of

12:28

community. People are feeling really kind

12:30

of isolated and lonely and their

12:33

work. I've definitely seen an increase

12:35

in. Isolation. Some

12:37

first feeling lonely and than actually

12:39

turning into not going out and

12:42

also turning into an actual symptom

12:44

of depression. Even so that lack

12:46

of community and then that leading

12:49

to actually. Isolating ourselves fully

12:51

and sorry not even friends after

12:53

work. Not seeing her family so

12:56

it kind of spirals and I've

12:58

seen it the most in my

13:00

male clients. Ah

13:02

so it's it is a

13:04

very interesting. Time

13:07

for men. I've seen some

13:09

people calling it the second

13:11

pandemic in there thing about

13:13

his. The. Pandemic of Mail

13:15

Loneliness. I'm apparently many men got

13:17

most of their socializing done at

13:19

work when they just came home

13:22

to their families, and so now

13:24

many people are. Many men are

13:26

not having that connection at work

13:28

and it has not been replaced

13:30

with anything. So. It is

13:32

that Loneliness Keys I think is really

13:35

critical. That's

13:37

interesting because. You think

13:39

of. Of. Mail friendship

13:41

groups often. Or

13:43

a context around. The.

13:46

Friendships that the you have like

13:48

him. My wife will sometimes get

13:50

together with her friends. Just.

13:52

To around and talk and that sort of

13:54

a function of. of the social

13:56

occasion whereas if i'm getting together with

13:59

my male friends, it's like going to

14:01

watch a ballgame or going to do,

14:04

there's an activity, there's a

14:06

context with it that

14:08

I think men crave in order

14:11

to enable the socializing.

14:13

I'm speaking in broad generalities, of

14:15

course, that might

14:17

not be the case as much with

14:20

people who identify as women. And

14:22

I hadn't thought about that

14:24

in the context of work, that

14:27

maybe it's a contextual thing where

14:29

the socializing needs, you know, not

14:31

a ballgame, but a staff

14:34

meeting, or, you know, gathering around the

14:36

water cooler. Absolutely. Yeah,

14:38

I think you're right in that, you

14:41

know, there is, unfortunately, so

14:43

in our culture, there is this kind of

14:45

sense around manhood

14:47

or being a male, that you kind

14:49

of keep those emotions close to your

14:52

chest, you don't really talk about much,

14:54

you can't just get together and jack,

14:56

that's weird, or that's not okay. And

14:58

there's that judgment, so there's that stigma

15:00

still. And so that idea

15:03

that we need to have a reason to get

15:05

together, and now we

15:07

don't have work, you know, it does, it

15:09

definitely will limit that sense of

15:11

community for sure. More

15:17

with Megan Delph and more of your questions after

15:20

the break. You

15:25

know what I like? I like

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easy things are just the best,

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15:34

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bring on the easy. My favorite easy

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depression. Back

17:29

with Megan Delp, NAMI's Director of

17:31

Workplace Mental Health, and we're

17:33

talking about how the move to working

17:35

from home, sometimes in isolation, really is

17:37

affecting people. During

17:41

the height of the pandemic, I

17:43

remember there was people would have

17:45

cocktail hours over Zoom, where people

17:47

were just alone in their homes

17:49

having cocktails, and

17:52

looking at a screen. I

17:55

mean, we're not Probably

17:57

going back to as much in-person. The

18:00

work, as there was before the pandemic.

18:02

though there's a lot less of it.

18:04

In. Other people have gone back in

18:06

the offices but it doesn't look like

18:08

it's ever gonna be the same. is.

18:11

That kind of on screen.

18:14

Social interaction. Enough.

18:16

Of a substitute for for. Your

18:19

body to body proximity. I

18:22

would say probably get us. Kind.

18:25

Of most of the way they say

18:27

i don't think it gets us all

18:29

the way they are There is something.

18:32

I mean I do tell a therapy and

18:34

I'd rather leave. You know we see the

18:36

same results with Tell A Therapy as we

18:38

do it in person therapy. And.

18:41

So I think. So. Too with

18:44

over the meetings as in person

18:46

like you can have great results.

18:49

I. Think the bigger issue is

18:51

actually just leaving your house. When

18:54

I've seen a lot with my clients is.

18:57

Where. That are homeless at first a

18:59

sanctuary in their safe spot from covered

19:01

in kind of. You. Know. Buckling,

19:04

Down and staying safe inside. It's all

19:06

this and become this place where they.

19:09

Never really. only. If they don't really

19:11

go out, they. Don't go see people. They

19:13

don't go to the gym, they don't do

19:15

their own hobbies outside the house and actually

19:17

becomes a place that is. Kind.

19:19

Of trapping them inside. So I think

19:22

there's definitely something to be said for

19:24

were getting out of the house, going

19:26

to a new place. Having that novelty

19:28

of seeing people in real life add

19:30

a new place at a unique place.

19:33

It does not have to be at

19:35

the office, but having that novel experience

19:37

their brains love new thing. An.

19:41

End. So yeah. Really? Allowing us

19:43

to have. Some. Fun in person

19:45

is just so good for our brains.

19:50

move across from from our listeners

19:52

at what point does something go

19:54

from normal work stress to mental

19:56

health impacts of warrant leaving a

19:59

job what's symptoms indicate mental

20:01

illness is a legitimate reason

20:03

to leave a job or

20:06

an industry. What should someone

20:08

be looking for? Yeah, so

20:10

some amount of work stress is good

20:12

for us, right? It

20:14

keeps us moving. It motivates us to get the

20:16

job done. It motivates us to do

20:19

a good job for our coworkers, for ourselves.

20:22

Some amount of stress is good. We

20:25

know it's getting to a dangerous

20:27

level when it starts feeling like

20:29

it's taking up all of

20:31

our energy. We're ending the day and

20:33

we can no longer do anything else

20:35

with our time because all

20:38

of our energy has gone towards work. And

20:42

that starts happening day after day after day.

20:44

It's not just the season. For

20:46

accountants, this season is very,

20:48

very busy for them. But

20:50

they know after this intense stress

20:53

of tax season is over, they

20:55

got some smooth sailing for a while. So that's

20:58

okay for them. If that level

21:00

of stress were to continue year-round, it

21:03

would be totally unsustainable. It would eat

21:05

into normal everyday life. It would

21:08

keep us from doing our hobbies. It would really,

21:11

really impact our ability to function. And

21:14

that is kind of the turning point

21:16

of this might be too

21:19

much. This work environment is not

21:21

supporting me taking care of myself.

21:24

It's not able to, or

21:26

it's not allowing me to live my life how I

21:28

want to. So it's

21:30

kind of where that functionality,

21:33

that life functioning goes from I

21:36

can manage to I can no longer

21:38

manage. And then also,

21:40

if you try to advocate for yourself and

21:42

say, this is unmanageable, can you help me

21:45

prioritize? Can we figure out how to delegate?

21:48

If the answer is no, that's

21:50

a big problem. If

21:52

the answer is great, let's work together, let's figure

21:54

this out, then definitely give

21:56

that workplace a chance to try and

21:59

correct. But if

22:01

the answer is no, then it

22:03

might not be the best place to be spending

22:05

your time. Yeah. You

22:08

mentioned work that you do at

22:11

NAMI with managers, with people who

22:13

are in supervisory roles. Is

22:18

there a big obstacle you need to

22:20

get past with people in

22:23

that line of work, like a way of

22:25

thinking that needs to be overcome that you

22:27

run across quite a bit? I

22:30

definitely have noticed, I mean,

22:32

even just talking about mental health at

22:35

work, people are so worried about saying

22:37

the wrong thing. They're

22:39

so worried to even start the conversation about

22:41

mental health that they just don't do it.

22:45

And so then there isn't that advocating for

22:47

mental health. There isn't that pushing

22:50

to say, hey, I'm really stressed. This

22:52

is impacting my workflow. If

22:55

they're worried about retaliation, they haven't heard anyone talk about

22:57

mental health, so they don't know if they can talk

22:59

about mental health. It's

23:01

just that initial hurdle

23:04

of figuring out how to talk about mental

23:06

health as an organization that really

23:09

keeps people from starting at all. Yeah.

23:14

How do you overcome something like that? So

23:17

the NAMI way, education training.

23:20

Education. Yes. Yes.

23:23

In our own voice. Yes. It

23:26

is helping people understand you don't have to

23:28

be a therapist to talk about mental health.

23:31

Just like your example of the broken leg

23:33

earlier, you don't have to be a surgeon

23:36

to ask someone, hey, how's your leg feeling?

23:38

I can see it's broken. You've told me

23:40

it's broken. How are you doing? So

23:44

too, you do not have to be a therapist to say, hey,

23:46

you told me you were really stressed the other day. How

23:49

are you feeling? Is that feeling better? Are you

23:51

feeling taken care of? Do we need to

23:53

do some more work around that? It

23:55

is the same kind of idea. We want

23:57

people to feel like mental health is... Festival,

24:01

there isn't a ton of pressure, you learn

24:03

together, if you ask a question and someone says,

24:05

hey, I'd prefer you ask it this different way.

24:08

Great. You learn and you move on. It is

24:11

not as scary as we think it is, even

24:13

though it is a sensitive topic for sure. It

24:15

is not as scary as we think it is. This is an

24:20

interesting question from one of our listeners.

24:22

It's something we've talked about already, but

24:24

kind of a new wrinkle in it as well. It

24:27

says, I am out about my mental health

24:30

and neurodivergence at work. I think it can

24:32

be good for other employees to have people

24:34

who are open about their challenges, but

24:37

what things should people be on the

24:39

lookout for in their organization before disclosing?

24:43

Definitely. So I love

24:45

first and foremost that you are being an advocate,

24:47

this person is being an advocate, and

24:50

being that mental health leader that we need

24:52

in organizations because it has to come from

24:54

somewhere, right? Someone has to be that first

24:56

person to say, hey, this is my

24:59

lived experience. I have a mental health condition.

25:01

Here's how I'm dealing with it. I invite everyone

25:03

else to talk to me. I love

25:05

that. Some

25:08

red flags that you might want to look out

25:10

for is any

25:13

changes in behaviors towards you

25:15

after you disclose that

25:18

are not kind or

25:20

not friendly. I've even

25:23

heard from some people that their

25:25

manager was talking to them about

25:27

a possible promotion, and then after

25:29

they disclose that conversation stopped. Things

25:31

like that where if you're seeing

25:33

behavior or conversation around you changing

25:35

in a way that is making

25:38

you feel more isolated or making

25:40

you feel called out first

25:43

for whatever reason, that

25:45

is what you would want to look

25:48

for if there are those negative changes

25:50

after you disclose. Right,

25:53

but what do you do before you

25:55

disclose? How can you spot that before

25:57

you get into that situation? I

26:00

would say if people are already talking about

26:02

mental health, that's a great sign. If

26:05

no one's talking about it, that's when you

26:07

know that it is a little bit of

26:09

a riskier situation. And

26:11

unfortunately, in some workplaces, you

26:14

don't know until you try,

26:16

which is definitely a risk,

26:18

right? Like we sometimes we just do

26:20

not know how people are going to

26:22

respond if we disclose. And

26:26

so it is a little bit accepting that

26:28

risk. You can always start by

26:31

just dropping smaller hints

26:33

instead of doing a full

26:35

disclosure right away. You

26:37

can start by just taking those

26:40

smaller steps. So saying things like, I've

26:42

been more stressed recently than I have

26:44

in a while. And seeing

26:46

how bad is handled, how bad is managed.

26:49

So instead of, you know, dropping

26:52

your diagnosis right away, you could

26:54

just start with some stressors, some

26:56

smaller symptoms, and see how people

26:58

respond in that way. Eventually

27:02

giving more and more information as you feel

27:04

comfortable. More

27:12

from Megan Delp in just a moment. I'm

27:21

going to start with Megan Delp, therapist and director

27:24

of Workplace Mental Health for NAMI.

27:28

Do you see things getting better

27:30

in terms of the American

27:32

workplace and its treatment of

27:35

mental health issues? I

27:37

hope so. I think so. That doesn't

27:39

sound very solid, Megan. No.

27:44

I really, I do think so.

27:46

I think there are so many

27:49

people who really want

27:52

mentally healthy workplaces. I

27:55

do hear a

27:58

little bit more frequently now than I did. maybe

28:00

two years ago, a little bit of

28:02

a swing backwards.

28:05

And this idea that bringing mental

28:07

health into the workplace means we

28:09

have to coddle our employees or

28:11

that it's making us soft. And

28:15

I get out my soapbox and I stand on that

28:17

soapbox and I say, no, no, no. If

28:20

we care about mental health in

28:22

the workplace, we're actually helping our employees

28:24

be more resilient and be more

28:27

productive because their brains are

28:29

literally healthier. Like it

28:31

is the opposite of the concern that I'm

28:34

hearing more of. And

28:36

so that

28:38

is, yeah, that kind

28:40

of rhetoric is definitely becoming a

28:42

little bit more popular, which

28:45

is concerning, but I

28:47

do still see this big tide of

28:49

people who want mentally

28:51

healthy workplaces. I mean, Gen Z especially, they

28:53

are a force to be reckoned with. Yes,

28:57

the young people will save us. That's

29:00

my hope. That's my hope is, yeah, it

29:02

may be a hope, but

29:05

it's hope at least. Follow-up

29:08

question on that one from the same

29:10

listener, should people always assume that when

29:12

push comes to shove, the company will

29:14

not be on their side? Kind

29:18

of a negative view, but maybe

29:21

a realistic one. Right, unfortunately

29:23

that is the safer option.

29:27

Employers, they want to mitigate

29:29

risk above all else. And

29:32

so they are

29:34

always thinking about things from a

29:37

legal standpoint, protecting themselves. And

29:40

so employees have to do

29:42

the same, right? They need to

29:45

think first and foremost about protecting themselves and

29:48

making sure that what they are sharing, what

29:50

they are asking for is

29:53

something that first that

29:56

Their employer could actually give them, right?

29:58

There are some accommodations that... There are

30:00

places literally cannot provide into

30:02

that workplaces. Not. A

30:05

reasonable please bird bird A certain person to

30:07

work it out. There are just certain places

30:09

that. Cannot. Provide certain

30:11

accommodations. That being said, Employers.

30:15

Are employees do have the legal

30:17

right to. Have

30:19

accommodations. At work,

30:21

within their workplace. And that

30:24

could be anything from. You.

30:26

Know having a distraction free environment

30:28

if a person has a D

30:31

H D all the way to

30:33

having breaks, having noise canceling headphones

30:35

like. There are so many options

30:37

that an employer can work with

30:39

their employee to help them feel

30:41

sick days work. but again it's

30:43

it is still a risk to

30:45

for it. Even if it is

30:47

legally protected, it is still a

30:50

risk. Vr a

30:52

book. What I'm hearing is it

30:54

doesn't seem like very use. Of

30:57

foolproof way. To.

31:00

Be out and open about

31:02

your mental health and during

31:05

P r your. Your.

31:07

Job security him to workplace to

31:09

that. Unfortunately,

31:12

That is probably the take away the

31:14

we want to be moving in this

31:16

direction where we can advocate for ourselves

31:19

or we can be a leader in

31:21

the mental health space where we can

31:23

share and be open. and it. In.

31:26

The workplace It is just a

31:28

little bit. Trickier. And

31:31

so it really, it changes.

31:34

so much. workplace to workplace.

31:36

Some workplaces are amazing, right?

31:38

They really welcome you sharing.

31:41

About your. Your. Disability or

31:43

your mental health condition. They want to

31:45

work with you and know you know

31:47

do whatever it takes to help you

31:50

be a productive employees than their are

31:52

workplaces who are the exact opposite and

31:54

then everyone in between. So it really.

31:57

it really is important to first

31:59

protect ourselves. Yeah,

32:03

and it seems like too, you know,

32:05

if you didn't get the promotion

32:08

because there was a mental health issue

32:10

that was known and thus

32:13

the promotion was no longer being discussed with

32:16

you, as we talked about earlier, it's

32:19

kind of unprovable. You're kind

32:22

of stuck. Yeah,

32:24

you know, it is a

32:26

very tricky thing. That is discrimination, right?

32:28

Like that is... Yeah, it's discrimination

32:31

to the definition. Right, it is

32:33

illegal. And like you said,

32:35

it is very difficult to prove it.

32:37

Now, should you go ahead and try to

32:39

prove it? Yes, for sure.

32:42

If you want to take that route, definitely

32:44

stand up for yourself. Definitely look into that.

32:47

That comes with its own risks, of course. That comes

32:49

with its own consequences.

32:51

But, you know, as we

32:54

are all learning how to advocate for our mental

32:56

health in the workplace, we

32:58

might need to be a little bit more pushy, a

33:00

little bit more upfront

33:04

about what our rights as employees

33:06

are. Because if

33:09

no one stands up for,

33:11

against the employer, then we're

33:13

not going to make any movement. Yeah,

33:18

it's a matter of figuring out how

33:20

to fight this war without

33:23

dying on the hill, you know? Like

33:25

without sacrificing yourself in the

33:27

process. I mean, would

33:30

you say it's worth it to be a crusader,

33:33

to be someone who tries to bring

33:35

about change? Or is it better just

33:37

to keep your head down

33:39

and stay in your cubicle about this kind of

33:41

thing? Oh, that is a fun question.

33:43

I would say it depends on

33:45

what kind of life you want

33:47

for yourself. There

33:50

is nothing wrong with

33:52

wanting to live a quiet life,

33:54

to not be someone

33:56

who like pushes, pushes, pushes. It

33:59

is okay. just say, I have mental health

34:01

condition, it is mine to manage. I'm going

34:04

to sit at home and read my book. And that's

34:06

okay. And then also, okay, if you

34:08

want to be, you know, standing

34:11

on my soapbox with me, asking

34:13

for change, demanding change,

34:15

standing out at work,

34:18

asking for accommodations, like doing all these

34:20

different things. It's, it

34:22

is okay, one way or the other. And

34:24

then again, everything in between, it is

34:27

just figuring out how

34:29

you want your life to

34:32

look based around your mental

34:34

health condition. It is figuring out how

34:36

you want to live your life and

34:39

how much advocacy fits into that

34:41

lifestyle that you want for yourself.

34:45

Obviously, there's a million

34:47

different mental health conditions

34:49

a person can have and

34:51

nuances and variations even within

34:53

those. So I don't want

34:55

to generalize too much. But if

34:58

a person with a mental health

35:00

condition is maybe a little

35:02

more delicate, a

35:04

little more vulnerable than

35:06

the person without, how, how

35:08

could you take care of

35:11

yourself at work, given the

35:13

egos at work, given the

35:15

hierarchies, given the, you know, if there's

35:17

some amount of mistrust, or

35:20

you know, it could be a political place, how do

35:22

you take care of yourself? I

35:24

would say starting outside work first,

35:27

so making sure you have that

35:29

great support system, whether that's a

35:31

professional like a therapist, or your

35:34

own friend group who really knows

35:36

you who can support you who

35:38

can be there for you cheerleader

35:40

you, like really making sure everything

35:42

outside of work is

35:44

supporting you as wonderfully as

35:46

possible. So are you taking care of

35:48

your physical health? Are you eating well,

35:50

drinking water, getting enough sleep, really

35:52

doing the things that support your mental

35:54

health outside of work. That

35:57

is where I always tell people to start. And

35:59

Then figure. How do exist within

36:01

a workplace ecosystem? I mean that

36:03

can change day to day these

36:05

days. Like there are lay off

36:07

happening there, stressors, financial stuff like

36:09

there's so much change. So

36:12

for taking. Care of ourselves outside

36:14

of work. First and foremost, we

36:16

are much more able to adjust

36:18

and be flexible. No

36:20

matter what our mental health condition as whether we

36:23

have one or not, we are much more able

36:25

be flexible. If ah, if we are taking care

36:27

of ourselves that we have that community. And

36:30

then within the workplace ecosystem it

36:32

is figuring out how to structure

36:34

your day that works for you.

36:36

For example, I. Have a

36:38

D H D and I know if

36:41

I don't literally schedule every half hour

36:43

of my day, I won't do anything.

36:45

Don't home as a reminder, nothing else.

36:49

And so I have to set out

36:51

blocks to write my email. They have

36:53

to, you know, say I'm working on

36:56

a presentation from one to one thirty

36:58

or it won't and so figuring out

37:00

how to work with your own mental

37:02

health. So. That you feel

37:04

like you are the one in control

37:07

of how you're going through your day.

37:09

You're the one in control of how

37:11

you are not eating things you are

37:13

even blocking off time for people can't

37:15

scheduled meetings with you if that's what

37:17

you me and really trying your best

37:19

to figure out how to structure your

37:21

work life so it is supporting your

37:23

mental health the best. So

37:26

often the case. but. With.

37:30

With one. From and health would

37:32

again be. Brought. In general

37:34

about it, but I'll tell people

37:36

it's often just a matter of

37:38

budgeting out extra time to consciously

37:41

figure out how to deal. With.

37:44

Dealing with. In a

37:46

way that that other people could

37:48

disrupt work and start working. Maybe

37:50

you if you have something going

37:52

on. Me: To have a little

37:54

extra time just to do that? Bad. Planning

37:56

it's you can do the same job you could

37:59

do just as good. Job as as anybody

38:01

else but it just requires. Little.

38:03

More I. Little. More executive

38:05

functioning. Oh absolutely. I know

38:07

for myself if I know it, it

38:10

sort of. friends kind of roll out

38:12

of bed and start working if I

38:14

don't. Know see. If

38:16

I don't have a solid two hours before

38:19

I start my work, Day I am

38:21

discombobulated. I need time to gradually

38:23

get ready, have some good breakfast

38:25

stand out on my deck with

38:27

my dog. the guy. Really. I

38:29

know myself. I need time to

38:32

wake up and kind of get

38:34

myself moving and edges and make

38:36

such a difference for me. So

38:38

yeah. It is really

38:40

figuring out how to work with

38:43

your specific brain and. What?

38:46

About the person individually or do

38:48

if you would are working with.

38:50

Clients. With patients who

38:52

deal with depression. And

38:55

are struggling in the workplace? Where do you

38:57

bring. Up. To them. For

38:59

my clients with depression it is. Honestly,

39:02

really difficult because depression tells you

39:05

you are tired. You can't do

39:07

things you know. It's all of

39:10

those negative voices swirling in your

39:12

head all day long and so.

39:15

In. The workplace do can be really

39:17

exacerbated because we're We do get

39:19

feedback. Sometimes it is negative or

39:21

even feedback that like a could

39:24

use a date. The slide for

39:26

me. If a person is depressed

39:28

that depression voice in their head

39:30

might take that small comment and

39:32

spiral. It's so big so it's

39:34

really it's for my his client

39:36

you're experiencing really intense depression. It

39:38

is a lot of catching those

39:40

thoughts. It is a lot of

39:42

noticing. Am I spiraling? Am I

39:45

staying? grounded am i it really

39:47

kind of noticing throughout my day

39:49

where my brain as going where

39:52

my thoughts are going am i

39:54

taking time for some mindfulness whatever

39:56

your mindfulness is it is important

39:59

but as going outside, if it's

40:01

mindfully eating your lunch, something that

40:03

takes you out of work, reconnects with your

40:06

body so that you really can

40:08

be present with yourself and recognize your

40:10

needs, which

40:13

then supports really being kind of present

40:15

with your own brain and noticing those

40:17

depression thoughts. Again, I

40:19

will say a lot of the depression

40:21

management will come outside of work where

40:23

you are building that community, you're

40:26

seeking treatment if you need it, which if

40:28

you have depression, yes. But

40:32

it is definitely getting those fundamentals in place

40:34

outside of work that are going to support

40:36

you. And also recognizing there

40:38

might be a time where you need

40:40

time off from work to

40:43

really manage depression, to

40:45

maybe do a more intensive program

40:47

where you are doing group therapy,

40:49

art therapy, whatever it is, it

40:52

is okay to recognize that at some point

40:54

you might need time off to

40:57

really heal from depression. It

41:01

almost sounds too like whatever

41:03

the condition is, whether it's depression,

41:06

anxiety disorders, ADHD, OCD, it's

41:10

almost like it's a second job. Like you've

41:12

got, it's almost like a side hustle that

41:14

doesn't fit. Yeah, exactly. Where

41:16

you have to put in a little

41:18

extra work than other people do

41:20

and maybe treat that as work. Maybe treat that

41:22

as like, here are the duties

41:25

I have to perform as

41:27

part of having this condition to understand what's going

41:29

on and make a plan. Yes,

41:32

it's funny you mentioned that. I actually just

41:34

told a client earlier this week, you

41:36

are your first job. You are

41:38

going to take the most energy, you're going to

41:40

take the most of the resources that you

41:42

have, you need to be your

41:44

own first job. So are you putting in the

41:47

energy to take care of yourself the

41:49

best first? Your

41:51

actual job needs to come second because

41:53

if we are not well, our job

41:55

will not be done well. We

41:58

are going to struggle. to not

42:01

be our best selves at work. And

42:03

so if our energy isn't going towards ourselves

42:06

first, our work is

42:08

definitely going to struggle. See,

42:10

this is why you're a therapist and not

42:13

me because I characterized it as a side

42:15

hustle. You characterized it as

42:17

the primary important job. Maybe your job

42:19

at the office or the restaurant, think

42:21

of that as the side hustle in

42:23

addition to your other work. Yeah,

42:26

I like that visual much better. Yeah,

42:28

I think that works better. Megan

42:31

Delp is the Director of Workplace

42:33

Mental Health for NAMI, the National

42:35

Alliance on Mental Illness. Megan, thanks.

42:37

Thank you so much. It's been a delight. I

42:44

want to thank Megan Delp for being with

42:46

me. I'll be honest, parts of this turned

42:48

out a little less optimistic than I was

42:51

hoping for. No fault of Megan's. She was

42:53

great. But I guess I was

42:55

just hoping that there was a way of

42:57

navigating the typical workplace, if there is such

42:59

a thing as a typical workplace, so

43:02

that things like discrimination and stigma

43:04

and the choppy waters of office

43:06

politics could be avoided 100 percent,

43:10

fail safe. But there might

43:12

not be a way to do that. Maybe

43:15

I was wearing rose colored glasses. I

43:17

don't know. Maybe

43:19

I thought that because of the

43:21

privilege that I always have available

43:23

to me as a straight white

43:25

man. And I need to be aware

43:27

of that at all times. Could

43:30

be that that privilege makes me

43:32

think that unfair situations can be

43:34

made fair if you just have

43:36

a plan. And that is

43:38

very often not the case. I

43:40

do think there is some hope, though, in

43:43

the point Megan made about taking care of

43:45

yourself, making yourself the number one job you

43:47

have. Mind you, it

43:49

sucks that a job such as

43:52

that offers neither salary nor benefit,

43:54

though the job security can't be beat. And

43:57

I suppose you can apply a little bit of the prayer

44:00

to this situation as well when it comes

44:02

to the workplace and mental health. Accept

44:05

the things you cannot change, change

44:07

the things you can, know the difference. Good

44:10

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United States and Canada by calling or

44:43

texting 988. It's free and available 24-7.

44:48

Our Instagram and Twitter are both

44:50

at DepressPod. Our Depress Mode newsletter

44:52

is available on Substack. Search that

44:54

up. I'm on Twitter and

44:57

Instagram at John Moe. You can also

44:59

join our Preshies group on Facebook. Preshies

45:01

is a wonderful community, lots of people

45:04

sharing information back and forth with

45:06

each other, supporting each other. It's a good

45:08

hang. Check that out. Just

45:10

search up Preshies on Facebook. Our electric

45:13

mail address is DepressMode at maximumfun.org. Hi,

45:16

Credits listeners. Last week we had Lindy

45:18

West on the show and she talked

45:20

about life with two spouses and

45:23

how there's twice the chance that someone else

45:26

will do the dishes compared to life with

45:28

one spouse. That led Jason

45:30

Novak over on Twitter to say, I'd

45:32

love to be optimistic with her but

45:34

that just sounds like a recipe for

45:36

twice as many unwashed dishes. Fair

45:39

point, Jason. Depress Mode is

45:41

made possible by your contributions. Our production

45:43

team includes Raghu Manavalan, Kevin Ferguson and

45:45

me. We get booking help from Mara

45:48

Davis. Rhett Miller wrote and performed our

45:50

theme song, Building Wings. Depress

45:53

Mode is a production of Maximum Fun

45:55

and Papuchick. I'm John Moe. Bye now.

46:00

is calling off of this

46:02

town, building

46:04

wings on the way past.

46:07

I am figuring things out. Building

46:12

wings, building wings, building wings.

46:18

Now I'm on the reason, but

46:20

I don't need this. I just

46:22

need to leave it. Yeah,

46:26

one more thing I want to say, one more thing

46:28

I want to say, how do

46:30

you want me to do this? Hi,

46:36

this is Caitlin from Boston, Mass.

46:39

And I just wanted to say that you

46:41

are valid the way you are.

46:43

And I do. Building

46:48

wings, building wings, building wings. Maximum

46:53

Fun, a work-around network of

46:55

artist-owned shows. Supported directly

46:58

by you.