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1:21

Hello and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil I. Patel,

1:23

Editor-in-Chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show

1:25

about big ideas and other problems. Today,

1:27

I'm talking with Joseph Cox, who is one

1:30

of the best cybersecurity reporters around. He spent

1:32

a long time working at Vice's tech vertical

1:34

motherboard, but last year, after Vice imploded, he

1:36

and three other journalists co-founded a new site

1:39

called 404 Media, where they are

1:41

doing some really great work. Somehow, on

1:43

top of that, Joseph also found the time

1:45

to write a new book, which is coming

1:47

out in June. It's called Dark Wire, the

1:49

incredible true story of the largest sting operation

1:51

ever. I can't recommend it enough. It's

1:53

basically a caper, but it involves the

1:56

FBI running a phone network. For real,

1:58

that's the story. See, crime... Like

2:00

drug traffickers represent a market for encrypted

2:02

secures mutations away from the I want

2:04

for Smith's Illegally Arrows novel that gave

2:07

rise to a small industry specialized is

2:09

your phones as the back there is

2:11

that criminals used to conduct business scarcest

2:13

on a lot of reporting on the

2:15

seventy years and the book ends up

2:17

telling a really extraordinary story after breaking

2:20

into a few these encrypted smartphone companies.

2:22

The. Sp I ended up running one itself

2:24

so we could spy and Seminoles around the

2:26

world. And that means the

2:29

F B I had to run a

2:31

start up from company with all of

2:33

the problems of any other tech startup.

2:35

cloud service management, manufacturing and Shipping Aziz

2:37

Customer service expansion scale. The. Company was

2:39

called annum in for about three years,

2:42

he gave law enforcement agencies around the

2:44

world a crystal clear window into the

2:46

criminal underworld, but it ended because it

2:48

was too successful and all ended with

2:50

a massive worldwide raid on criminal organizations.

2:53

Get. The story is while. Now.

2:55

In the modern era, with the rise of

2:57

apps like Signal, most criminals no longer need

3:00

specialized hardware is dedicated services, But that raises

3:02

a whole new set of issues. The.

3:04

Really are bad people out there use

3:06

Intact to help them do bad things.

3:08

but the same tools to keep their

3:10

communications private help give everyone else to

3:13

privacy. To whistleblowers, dissenters, people like you

3:15

and me, there's a deep tension between

3:17

privacy and security. The constantly runs through

3:19

tech industry. And. Use your joseph and I

3:21

really dig into the way tech companies and governments are

3:24

forever going back and forth on. There's.

3:26

A lot going on this one of the affair on

3:28

the front of the the other. Jessica. Joseph

3:43

cost you any cofounder and reporter at

3:45

for for media and incredibly great new

3:47

tech website And you're off the offer

3:49

of a cold dark wire or can

3:51

to Dakota. Thank you so much for

3:53

having me. And. When asked you questions

3:55

I for for and I once i my dark

3:57

wire which is an incredible keeper of a book.

4:00

Highly recommend it. It's of it took out. It's a

4:02

beach read about. Encrypted smartphones. Other

4:04

houses thrive. It's great. It's a it's

4:06

a great read. I once had a

4:08

lot. It's very quickly want to cycle

4:10

up for of for of the new

4:13

Tuck outside the U Cofounder the Sponge

4:15

people tell me what that and starts

4:17

going really quickly so so as some

4:19

listens may know this company called nice

4:22

owner was as episode went bankrupt because

4:24

of a series as pool executive decisions

4:26

and me and my cofounders san Jose

4:28

since hapless a Minute maid or we

4:31

decided to leave. I'm a top own

4:33

primarily. Subscriber: Treason Technology Investigations

4:35

website. We just wanted to make a

4:37

sustainable vehicle for journalism Is we just

4:39

want to keep exposing stuff? We want

4:41

to keep writing stories of all of

4:44

these layoffs in the media industries that

4:46

is getting harder and harder and harder.

4:48

So why not just control sort of

4:50

the website ourselves? A business ourselves like

4:52

other people have done like to sector

4:54

or Case Newton a platform us and

4:57

Spy. But those people we decided to

4:59

take the plunge ourselves is going for

5:01

the really well. What's the most

5:03

important thing you've learned running around Me To misses. The

5:06

gyms and has to come first and as

5:08

always the case. But if you actually put

5:11

the journalism first people respect that and they

5:13

will come and they will pay for your

5:15

words like we just did a piece about

5:17

the exploitation of Ss Seven in the house

5:19

Phones are being tracked in the U S.

5:22

Very complicated story took me a long time

5:24

of people want to pay for that and

5:26

people want to subscribe me want to support

5:28

that work. So since the gyms and and

5:31

stuff will follow fastest novels and media companies

5:33

are doing the not putting the journalism front

5:35

and center. Or you know start

5:37

generating a I previous for Google search sooner

5:39

said we look for time next year I

5:41

encounter that's the first time and is may

5:44

be allergic to Google and I I literally

5:46

may know use a search engine anymore is

5:48

is that a parent or hate it. I

5:51

will have you back since I got for for maybe

5:53

with some here cofounders because I'm very instant hi. this

5:55

is going offices you know and I'm rooting for us

5:57

I think to orchestrate but where does have a book.

6:00

Which is also great. I have no idea

6:02

how you started saw me the company. And.

6:05

Wrote a true crime book at the

6:07

same time. You. Must be very sleepy,

6:09

but the book is Dark Wire. The Incredibles:

6:11

The story of the largest sting operation ever.

6:13

There's a lot of reporting that went into

6:15

it on both sides, on through as the

6:17

high side of the criminal sides. Let's start

6:19

at the beginning and lamp that timeline. It.

6:22

Feels like the the book begins with

6:24

smartphones in the two thousands. Criminals.

6:27

Are exceptions are great but the government can

6:29

read with on them. What? Happened

6:31

sir. It starts mostly with Blackberry

6:33

Like criminals. started using Bbm Blackberry Messenger

6:36

because it was seen as being more

6:38

secure and for a while it was.

6:40

It was better than ordinary text messages,

6:43

but you know the far as started

6:45

looking at that including the Royal Canadian

6:47

Mounted Police said it is very large

6:49

operations where they managed to read a

6:52

ton of Bbm messages. So. Some.

6:54

Sort of like geeks or drug traffickers.

6:56

A combination of those they saw making

6:58

customized blackberry is where they taken the

7:01

microphone out, the Gps out the cameras

7:03

well and it basically basically changes the

7:05

Blackberry Winter really secure encrypted device they

7:07

as encrypted email on the on to

7:09

their as well. That's not the end

7:11

of it though, of course cop starts

7:14

to catch up. With that said in

7:16

the criminals have to make more advancements

7:18

as well and what you basically have.

7:21

Is why I see is like a

7:23

shadow tech industry where where are usually

7:25

obsessed with you know the new Aslan,

7:28

out some of the new Google announcement,

7:30

whatever is and then you have these

7:32

top two drug traffickers who are excited

7:35

for the voice scrambling feature on a

7:37

new encrypted smartphones and the really is

7:39

brand loyalty. In the same was a

7:41

lot of us a loyal to Apple

7:44

or Google, whoever all loyal to an

7:46

encrypted messaging apps. There really is this

7:48

massive industry that really drives foods. Not

7:51

only. Book criminals are

7:53

able to do logistically as

7:55

in plants, most high tongue

7:57

cocaine shipments basically very easily.

8:00

They also radically change the conversation

8:02

around privacy encryption in law enforcement

8:04

as well. So. There's a

8:06

market for these products. Like he said,

8:08

brand loyalty. The first companies that start

8:10

are really doing that most. Basically you

8:12

can do which is the running their

8:14

own Blackberry messaging server which allows them

8:17

to control the encryption keys. These.

8:19

Companies quickly run follow the law

8:21

because they're providing services criminals. They

8:23

get arrested. Other competitors arise.

8:25

The big one that is introduced early

8:27

on the book is a coming up.

8:30

Phantom Secure. How did Phantom Secure avoid

8:32

the problems that. For the first

8:34

when the company's ran into. Some. What

8:36

they did was bother than just

8:38

customizing the blackberry, all adding their

8:40

own Blackberry server. They added the

8:42

encrypted email feature which is why

8:44

Sluggish of A see the time.

8:47

they allows these drug traffickers including

8:49

the Cinema Cartel the used sentenced

8:51

to communicate securely but they also

8:53

did something interesting. Buses that they

8:55

use a network of resellers who

8:57

know the criminals that a finite

8:59

customer base I would say of

9:01

traffic isn't going to buy the

9:03

science and these sellers know who

9:05

those. People are another element of trust

9:07

that is not like you just walk into

9:10

a shot and by when the sun's a

9:12

least not Ordinarily if the no one sees

9:14

resellers he has to trust them And of

9:16

course a stay. Messy. Woven sell

9:19

you a bad phone for drug traffickers

9:21

this give somebody a target to go

9:23

to complain about it says it's already

9:25

same with Apple like it or if

9:27

address as a cast aside I gonna

9:29

go Mona Tim Cook course and an

9:31

angry emails to Microsoft or whatever the

9:33

somebody here to to be held accountable

9:36

fans. That. Does it benefit? I'm a

9:38

curse a source of these companies because those people

9:40

ended up being targeted by the Sp Ice as

9:42

a way to get into these companies as well.

9:44

To he of honestly as a franchise

9:46

follow your your local franchise owner and

9:48

that person is to say some local

9:51

customer support for the drug dealer but

9:53

also the place where law enforcement can

9:55

apply pressure on the that last because

9:57

eventually you know does fall apart but

9:59

it's. Like that was the dominant.

10:02

Method. For quite awhile. and Phantom Secure

10:04

is really when the book opens without a

10:06

long story. it was Phantom Secures. At

10:09

the heart of the whole story. Yeah.

10:11

I mean I think these hardens and for

10:13

to phones as source will this be I

10:16

cause I'm have been around basically for a

10:18

decade before that was about both us and

10:20

then you have these customers phones. Now you

10:22

have complicated stuff that I'm sure we get

10:24

into with criminals actually turning to signal and

10:26

more consumer apps but that was the sources

10:29

timeframe do you had of these companies and

10:31

that's basically how long it took the the

10:33

F B I and other law enforcement agencies

10:35

to get a handle on it and ten

10:37

years is like ancient history when it comes

10:40

to the F B. I or or

10:42

law enforcement or surveillance techniques right

10:44

sites for a while. Criminals.

10:47

Were using these phones not openly, but they

10:49

basically didn't have to worry about the yes

10:51

to think about it. They bought one of

10:53

these phone for hundreds or thousands of dollars

10:55

for six months subscriptions and then they could

10:58

go to a cocaine deal like it really

11:00

was and. Yeah,

11:02

you gotta as a story. The beginning Where. And

11:05

the sort of consumer messaging platform

11:07

is the criminals. He's codewords, animate,

11:09

Say. Okay, switch to the secure phones

11:11

and now I have as if the

11:13

kilos of cocaine straight out know hedging

11:15

and this product works for. Major.

11:18

Drug traffickers? What led to the downfall of

11:20

this First Way, which I think Phantom secures

11:22

kind of the major symbol of the first

11:24

wave. What led to the down for. The.

11:27

Sp I started Target Sense insecure by

11:29

well a couple of different ways for

11:31

the end up doing is slipping a

11:33

distributor he says he signs and they

11:36

oppose You need to get close to

11:38

the Ceo, the Phantom secure with some

11:40

ankles in some ram Us that happens.

11:42

Ramos make some very incriminating statements to

11:45

the S B I and undercover operations

11:47

and they arrest him and they say

11:49

you need to put back to into

11:51

Phantom secure and let us read all

11:53

of the messages as the ten thousand

11:56

users or whatever. Samson or we're going to

11:58

arrest you. For various. M

12:00

C F B I don't get

12:02

that back to Ramos tries to

12:04

escape, he merely gets away. I

12:06

won't spoil exactly what happened. this

12:08

is very dramatic and and they

12:10

arrest the militia doesn't I'm secure

12:12

spots yes although the sp I

12:14

did not get that back to

12:16

then he ushered in this way

12:18

ease of paranoia in cook the

12:20

phone industry where the sellers realized

12:22

oh. We. Can't do this

12:24

anymore. The gold rush of selling

12:27

encryption to drug traffickers is basically

12:29

over. Always gonna be over soon.

12:32

Yeah. You describe out certain like lavish

12:34

parties for their swords and honestly drugs

12:36

these resellers were throwing for themselves. Of

12:38

these companies that mostly men who ran

12:40

all these companies were throwing because this

12:42

was the easiest money that any of

12:44

them. Her roommate and at. Thirty.

12:47

Cents. Yeah and some

12:49

people go on the run, some

12:51

of them made to use with the

12:53

authorities. A century later, some of

12:55

them to shut down the company's entirely

12:57

because they presumably decide this is

12:59

not worth it. Like we cannot provide

13:02

these tools to criminals anymore As

13:04

you just say, like he, most places

13:06

in the world is is not a

13:08

crime to sell and encrypted phone

13:10

Know to make a piece of encryption

13:13

software uncontroversial. Guessing that's a good

13:15

thing as Mississippi illegals to make encryption

13:17

technology. it gets complicated. Legally

13:19

and ethically when you are deliberately

13:21

facilitating criminal networks and selling to

13:24

those crime that works and that's

13:26

what a lot of these companies

13:28

that. We. Have

13:30

take a quick break from your back. Support.

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For this show comes from Wix

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I have heard a lot of stupid. Stuff I'm

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free throw in this week. Katie

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podcasts. For

16:31

the Macintosh images of Cox author of Dark

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Wire that how the F B I ended

16:35

up not only intercepting that actually running and

16:37

encrypted. To

16:40

set the snakes, just describe how the

16:42

Feds classes a public health center secure

16:44

which ran an encrypted for network at

16:46

Blackberries and that mud hole in the

16:48

model. So

16:52

this raises to about twenty eight him

16:54

that gold rushes over that ten years

16:56

of parties come to an end and

16:58

somehow. Instead. Of another

17:00

company or another strategy coming

17:02

out of the criminal world,

17:04

the F B I launches.

17:07

The. Next Generation encrypted messaging platform

17:09

for drug dealers and called

17:12

Adam. How is it

17:14

that the F B I launches the big competitors?

17:16

Your lead to just that's the heart of the

17:18

book. and it to me, it's just the funniest

17:20

thing and the entire world. So when

17:22

Sansom is set down, there is

17:25

something as a vacuum there for

17:27

ten thousand customers. They need to

17:29

get back of an encrypted messaging

17:31

platform as soon as possible. When

17:33

you're a drug trafficker, time is

17:35

money, oversee, and if you're not

17:38

moving drugs, you are losing many.

17:40

so somebody who call themselves ask

17:42

you. Makes. A deal with the

17:44

Spr and they say already making my

17:46

own and crypto phone company would you

17:49

like to use it in your own

17:51

investigations And I cannot stress enough what

17:53

an incredible Eisa is Both ask you

17:55

cause it's not just like hey I'm

17:58

going reform on this one criminals. Patients

18:00

like: I'm giving you a tech startup and

18:02

you can grow it like I've done a

18:04

Strapping Us A Lucky Way pulling it sends

18:06

you can now growers and you can get

18:08

your hockey stick grow for whatever Silicon Valley

18:10

time you want to use and you can

18:12

put in your back to in return. Please.

18:15

Don't prosecute me to crimes are you may

18:17

or may know to in the seats and

18:19

is just an incredible deal and one this

18:22

is absolutely. Tantalizing. To

18:24

the sp I me a p they

18:26

miss their backs on sentence kids now

18:28

become mates their own back to door

18:30

in any way to they want to

18:32

censor. Search. Just. Would.

18:35

Just stick with asked who has the so up

18:37

to the F B I and say I have

18:39

this product would you like to take it over

18:41

and and we will sell it to the criminal

18:43

underworld. The F B

18:45

I has to see. yes. right?

18:48

Bit they have it agree they're gonna

18:50

do this. There's vastly some process. What

18:52

is that process of the a feeling

18:54

of thirst? Did Ceo Jamie as be?

18:56

I don't think the Americans, the senior

18:58

Tuesday a gonna get on board and

19:01

Leslie proves there's actually real So. Working.

19:04

With the Australian Federal Police, the I

19:06

Have p do something of a beta

19:08

test and they sought to roll out

19:10

the phones ask you does in Australia

19:12

to starting with five and then slowly

19:14

ramping up the ice tea stars, intercept

19:16

messages. And very quickly they

19:18

see that one hundred percent of

19:20

the messages at the time or

19:22

criminal internet access affairs know people

19:24

like it's a paranormal chats a

19:26

suicide okay cocaine deal okay methamphetamine

19:28

deal was as us so he

19:30

shows is that is a success

19:32

rates but at that moment. Bsp.

19:35

Eyes and breeding the messages for legal reasons

19:37

and they need to figure out the approval

19:40

process. And there's a really great scene in

19:42

the book where one of the prosecutors Andrew

19:44

Young is trying to get everybody else in

19:46

San Diego on his side to approve us

19:48

and they go round the table and as

19:51

only season drug prosecutors to be doing this

19:53

he isn't is years and he cites know

19:55

this is ridiculous I did Supers you can't

19:57

do this and eventually gets to. Brewer

20:00

the my senior official there and a simple

20:02

pointy and he says i need to see

20:04

the look on their face when I say

20:06

we're going to do this and he approves

20:08

it and interestingly he's an outsider. He's never

20:10

really been and the O J until he

20:12

was appointed so he has his outside perspective

20:14

of but why don't we just run around

20:16

Tech Company has a great idea that I'd

20:18

say go for it's I don't as it

20:20

would have got off the grounds. If.

20:22

I wasn't the outside. Perspective.

20:24

Necessarily to study, O J is

20:27

not the best place to run

20:29

a move fast and break things

20:31

text up. Obviously. So. Did this

20:33

is a my next lesson is the may have to run it. Them.

20:36

Have customers and resellers and I'm assuming they

20:38

need to fix things when they break a

20:40

mate. Need to have uptime. How did the

20:42

F B I run a phone company The

20:44

phone companies are bad at running some companies

20:46

out of the F B I run a

20:48

sensible has ever seen you since he was

20:50

have to do for a legitimate company the

20:53

sp I had to do here so he

20:55

has a higher higher developers some of which

20:57

I spoke to and they had no idea

20:59

they were actually working for the Us be

21:01

I stare to fix bugs introducing seats as

21:03

was that sources saying the F B I

21:05

had to pay for. The technical infrastructure

21:07

that was inclusion of Sim cards or

21:09

servers or anything like that they had

21:11

to deal with. Sipping the phone says

21:13

one point where stock is running low

21:16

in one part of the world's the

21:18

F B I flies a Gulfstream Jet

21:20

packs was duffel bags of Google pixels

21:22

to introduce more stocks or something or

21:24

Google pixels and ever been sets in

21:26

the history of Texas is exactly which

21:28

could have been a slight risk I

21:30

mean for other see all of those

21:33

batteries are playing but other source of

21:35

another thanks But every. Problem you imagine

21:37

a tech company was have they had

21:39

to deal with as well including hat

21:41

is paying people running every single aspect

21:43

of it, the marketing. trying to get

21:45

a grip on some of these criminal

21:47

markets where the resellers with say well

21:49

if you switch to our platform will

21:52

give you a discount this three hundred

21:54

dollars or something like that. and it

21:56

was also a little bit of mystique

21:58

in that when you went. Company's website

22:00

you couldn't get in unless you enter

22:02

the coast you got from a result

22:04

A kind of reminds you the early

22:06

days of was a google Plus weather

22:08

like you have to know somebody to

22:10

get an analyst. I came together to

22:12

the point where the sp I. Mean

22:16

they are running in a successful take Company

22:18

eventually grows the something I twelve thousand devices

22:20

Which doesn't sounds like a lot in the

22:22

grand scheme of things, but I speak of

22:24

them. Sansom Secure was somehow the F B.

22:26

I said it better than some of the

22:29

the criminal companies. Who was

22:31

in charge of Adam was it does have a

22:33

Ceo was or public face was at a committee

22:35

homework. Ask. You. Was.

22:37

In charge of the day to day

22:39

operations of the company, There were various

22:42

people insides the company to try to

22:44

take it over. Basket was the one

22:46

who basically pools assaults for most things.

22:48

Yeah, I'm gonna push this update with

22:51

us. Those things I think we should

22:53

hire this person's but. Behind.

22:56

Every single decision says the constant.

22:58

Sadly we presence of Cspi offices

23:00

developers have no idea the criminals

23:02

have no idea and neither did

23:04

the people saying the phones bus

23:06

a kind of think of it

23:08

as like. A V C or

23:10

like an investor who likes isn't really in

23:12

the public for the kind of pulling the

23:14

strings on the banks. That's how I see

23:16

the F B I and this is in.

23:18

they does get final approval on when I

23:20

don't put that in the phone because I

23:23

will actually make a job harder to put

23:25

that in two thousand improve our back door

23:27

and it was stuff like but who gives

23:29

them. A reduction image feature

23:31

both boos secretly make it's

23:33

the phone copies the recently

23:35

and business and success. So

23:37

Cspi is like V C

23:39

Last Tax Northstar Flasks Ultimate

23:41

Products Manager I guess but

23:43

ask you is the faces

23:45

at least credibly else? That's.

23:48

The most complicated decoder structure answer I

23:50

think we've ever seen. Why did the

23:52

Sci Trust ask who are? Here's here's

23:54

a central player Take him to them

23:56

in their the face. Did.

23:58

Seem like there's a lot excessively. Know who

24:00

that was yes they knew who

24:02

was and you're right this is

24:04

absolutely trust their i think he

24:07

was that is ask you did

24:09

anything to sources go behind yes

24:11

the icebox their agreement would be

24:13

voice you know be remove fall

24:15

apart and a to potentially face

24:17

prosecution in the future. I feel

24:19

like Ascii was probably in a

24:21

corner and when you a part

24:23

of this very violence underground industry

24:25

this is sort of your last

24:28

resort and this is your way

24:30

out so you don't get kills

24:32

by somebody and you can hopefully

24:34

remain free as well. Sir.

24:36

Ask who has this hilarious see

24:38

a job. Where. They

24:40

report to the as behind a Fps driving lot of.

24:43

Literally. Tax features but they have to

24:45

grow the company right that there's a vacuum

24:47

after Phantom Secure goes away and M could

24:50

potentially take over. Is actually does succeed but

24:52

in the middle the in the at to

24:54

as I was call it they've gotta go

24:56

when and they. Act like a

24:58

text, Aren't there a third? Their disruptive

25:01

squeezer competitors. How did they actually win?

25:04

So they won in a couple of

25:06

ways. The first is that by they

25:08

simply made a better products then seven

25:10

got a lot of the F B.

25:12

I made a better product as assess

25:14

certain Yes, they made a better encrypt

25:16

a smartphone for criminals of all of

25:18

these fancy interesting features, a hat and

25:20

people loved it. People flock to At

25:22

and they would tell their friends about

25:24

this and they would encourage some other

25:26

criminals to get on board as well.

25:28

The other part of how it really

25:30

grew with that symbol Controversially the F

25:32

B I and. His partners investigated another

25:35

company for Sky. This was very

25:37

similar sense and secure both stimulus

25:39

when of uncle encourage shots. The

25:41

plan was deliberately the sp or

25:44

has their company sitting in the

25:46

wings. And. Then we're going

25:48

to shut down Sky. Those users

25:50

are gonna have to go somewhere.

25:52

why don't we have them run

25:54

over to are trapped essentially or

25:56

honey pots? And that was the

25:58

most transformative moment before. The company

26:00

he grew i think free times

26:02

and. The F B I agents

26:05

die heard from they were saying like

26:07

it was like starting all over again

26:09

and they really did have hockey stick

26:11

growth where they now had in tiny

26:13

countries on the they were getting new

26:16

criminal syndicates every few days and it

26:18

was the slightest exponential growth source of

26:20

in the same way when use police

26:22

and app and he goes viral only

26:24

hear the sp I did some flights

26:26

I dunno maybe to dear Jay says

26:29

investigates said the i'm anti competition philosophically

26:31

shut down the compositor essentially yeah I.

26:33

Will you be told Marseille Gov Tim for to

26:35

they could go arrest to their competitors they would

26:37

do it and the F B I was allowed

26:40

to go are a second nutters. that's emotions nobody

26:42

that as massive growth. Or

26:44

they run. and eight of us really handle this growth out

26:46

of his skill. Sourcing network infrastructure

26:48

diagrams of the company and yet

26:50

the used a W S as

26:52

as a salary success That was

26:55

you. who does Google infrastructure as

26:57

well. They use commercial providers and

26:59

yeah I'm also see that was

27:01

been security concerns as well but

27:03

that kind of hammers the point

27:05

home. This they couldn't just runs

27:07

like the Sb Eyes tech company

27:09

because when make sense they really

27:11

really had to emulate the successful

27:13

players and the space. And that

27:16

includes these. Very expensive. Unlimited

27:18

data centers includes using a to be West

27:20

to accelerate your traffic and try to get

27:22

move reliable and have a lot of up

27:24

time. It was literally as they were just

27:26

trying to run the most successful tech company

27:29

they could. With a back

27:31

door to law enforcement with a bite or so

27:33

that was. I'm a very small capita is a

27:35

success because they are won four cents. A strange

27:37

thing about all this is the as as running

27:39

this phone network that encrypt us on our of

27:42

an old. They're. Not

27:44

allowed to just use the stuff

27:46

either. To be careful in when

27:48

they burn the customers actually prosecute

27:50

them. They have to officer knighted

27:52

states. We. Have a constitution, their rules

27:55

about what you can use and when you can

27:57

use it if the and warrants. In some ways,

27:59

it feels like other countries able to use this

28:01

information much more effectively than the F B I

28:03

was. Yeah, there's a constant tension

28:05

in which the authorities and I mean

28:07

more the Europeans or the ones in

28:09

other countries they really want to ask.

28:11

They want to see this drug shipments.

28:13

They want to stop this assassination. And

28:16

able to see these weapons and especially

28:18

for the threats to life. Psp I

28:20

know it's just have to act is

28:22

when they see somebody is going to

28:24

kill was they call Essex We just

28:27

sit there legally a wasn't White House

28:29

for Se Cleats Day. I'm treated it

28:31

as such and he can that tension

28:33

of well if we go too far

28:35

too quickly people are gonna realize as

28:37

a backdoor and something very unusual happens

28:39

where they would be a threat to

28:41

life. maybe a biker gang want to

28:44

kill somebody the authorities would intervene. And

28:46

improv an unsuspecting the phone. The criminals

28:48

would suspect somebody else in their own

28:50

organization and I want to kill them

28:52

and site is endless by where the

28:54

violence the Sp Ice has to deal

28:56

with and is basically getting out of

28:58

control. Towards. The end. How.

29:00

Do they keep any of this a secret? I hear

29:02

what you're saying. No one ever suspects their phone. But.

29:05

I feel like the reason they have the found this

29:07

because I suspect the regular phones. Is

29:10

it's just that. They. Have a false

29:12

confidence and annum Phones. What?

29:14

How to? Honestly? how do they keep a secret? I'm.

29:17

Genuinely shocked they delete as an really

29:19

really genuinely salts this didn't go out

29:21

early. Earth Yes. Be I ran this

29:24

for like basically for years more and

29:26

one way they did to that is

29:28

by only bringing agencies that they've really

29:30

really trust is there are countries who

29:32

would not linked in. I mean countries

29:35

like Serbia for example where understand a

29:37

lot of the violence took place. Missing

29:39

some of the corruption as well. Yes

29:41

Be I did not Loops I'm in

29:44

to the secret on one side. It

29:46

was a very large. Operation with sixteen

29:48

countries or something like that towards

29:50

the end. On the other it

29:52

was only very very very trusted

29:54

agencies and basically people at a

29:56

loss as these. Relationships.

29:59

They would in. Each other from sort of

30:01

other operations. They receive friends a lot

30:03

of cases and if they weren't friends

30:05

are the start. they were the encino.

30:07

They were telling me how they're going

30:09

to the pub in the bars together

30:12

a and getting drunk and celebrating. So

30:14

it really was this big mutual decision

30:16

to keep it under wraps. Which is

30:18

not to say the criminals did not

30:20

get suspicious because they absolutely did towards

30:22

the end and was other operations in

30:24

to anchor chatting sky those two other

30:26

companies. Some criminals did learn about those

30:28

beforehand so leaks do happen. Based

30:31

basically a miracle to this one. We

30:35

have six out of it breaks and Rebecca. Hi

30:46

This is got our I'm at Elson

30:49

and Where The House Ago house. It's

30:51

kind of unfair to call his cohorts.

30:53

I'm really The Houses is my Robin

30:55

Givhan for Sissy, Clear on what the

30:58

says, when? Anyways, where The House of

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31:51

Week on the pets were back to pitches.

31:54

And. This one's. Coming. From my

31:56

job. Of plants

31:58

as a I does is. It

32:00

led to podcasts producers become

32:03

ten times more productive. How

32:05

much are you charging the pets? Were

32:07

charging ninety nine dollars and Josh

32:09

came in right before we double

32:11

their prices. What's

32:14

keeping something like? A restrain from just gone

32:16

like yes we do all the say

32:18

i now stuff killed So there's a

32:20

lot of these older companies that are

32:22

tacking on a i had that kind

32:24

of the issue they're talking it on

32:26

You Built this really quickly is the

32:28

seventy miles was was the most. How

32:33

do you build a moat when you're

32:35

building with a I? Guess. This

32:37

week on the pitch. Go. Right now

32:39

and subscribed to The Pits wherever

32:41

you listen to podcasts. Well.

32:44

As last time, you noticed a

32:46

federal comments period. You. Know the

32:48

type federal government is passing a law, are

32:50

changing the rules and they want to hear

32:52

what you think about it. Well.

32:55

One of those com and periods just kicked

32:57

off and runs for the next two months

32:59

and it's a big one. The

33:03

Federal government wants know what you

33:05

think about their plan to reschedule

33:07

marijuana, not what time you take

33:10

the smoke breaks for Coli? Sorry

33:12

of like this. New schedules totally

33:14

confuses. The Federal government is basically

33:16

trying to read categorized week and

33:19

it could happen as soon as

33:21

election day. The President says it's

33:23

a big deal. This is monumental,

33:25

but we reached out to a

33:28

cannabis policy reporter at Politico task

33:30

if she thought it was monumental,

33:33

And she said yes, but

33:35

also not. Our

33:39

conversation is waiting for you. Add today

33:41

explained. We're

33:47

back I'm talking for for media source

33:49

of talkspace Absolutely Wilds restored sp I

33:51

running six months from company for criminals

33:54

that was not in fact to secure

33:56

his it's Massive project Adam How together

33:58

for a few years. Then things

34:00

get tricky. You've

34:03

got all the problems. A regular start up,

34:05

we had a period of yourself. Then you

34:07

have all these other sailed already problems that

34:10

are services getting bigger and it's leading to

34:12

an escalating cycle of violence that we have

34:14

to keep stopping and we have to. Keep.

34:17

It a secret. And. Things are

34:19

wreaking by Twenty Twenty One. People are starting

34:21

to get the sense this isn't and work

34:23

described sort of the beginning of the and

34:25

here. Towards the sounds of

34:27

Twenty Twenty One, it becomes pretty clear

34:30

to the F B I agents I've

34:32

spoken to another officials physicists a site

34:34

and tenable there are more more masters

34:36

coming in every single day. The F

34:38

B I can't keep. I think Momentum

34:41

is the term that was used. With

34:43

the influx of messages and uses they

34:45

are too successful to the point where

34:47

what happens if a message for through

34:49

the cracks and your and a com

34:52

soccer threat to life or something like

34:54

that I'm actually did happen at one

34:56

point. As in one person was

34:58

killed on the sp. Eyes up.

35:00

Now what happens if we let

35:02

that continue? So they decide that.

35:05

The. Date is going to be June Seventh.

35:07

Twenty Twenty One. Saw.

35:09

The reason that stuff is growing

35:11

to an enormous size. Small safer

35:13

A Legal Logistical reasons that that's

35:15

when the to court order the

35:17

obtains was gonna run else anyway.

35:19

So they start this massive. Flurry

35:22

of activity leading up to June Seventh.

35:24

where's like, well now we're going to

35:26

switch this from intelligence tool into like

35:29

an evidence Judicial Tools and we going

35:31

to start investigating these people really, really

35:33

aggressively. So I've read tens of thousands

35:35

of pages of police reports related to

35:38

an arm and Mrs. When you start

35:40

to see the cops on the ground

35:42

in Europe following cause, dissing the normal

35:44

text messages, getting hotel bills, getting the

35:47

criminals credit card information, source of school

35:49

a normal. Investors techniques we

35:51

all know about. but now that ramp

35:53

those up, applying them to these messages

35:56

with the hope of pressing. Eight

35:58

hundred people is our list. Towards the big

36:00

day which is just like an unfathomable amounts

36:02

of better to is to have a one

36:05

day that you think of a big grade

36:07

or well as greats literally multiply that by

36:09

a hundred. And so eight

36:11

hundred people actually got arrested. Her And how many countries.

36:14

I. Actually don't know how many countries

36:16

but he was eight hundred people arrested

36:18

and a nom was act is in

36:20

more than a hundred different countries and

36:23

of the end they had something like

36:25

twenty two million messages and. Nearly.

36:27

Ten thousand police acted on

36:29

that one single day and

36:32

like this global relay race.

36:34

Other arrests embrace. To.

36:36

And what was their go signal to the

36:38

side Email being like Tuesday I think of

36:40

that was basically a meeting where where the

36:42

a Felix however bodies this is a date

36:44

when not going to negotiate it when organ

36:46

the changes this is a day you have

36:48

to figure out. What? You're going to

36:50

do now to arrest the people the you want to

36:53

target. How did they keep that secret?

36:56

Ah I mean this is when stuff

36:58

does start to get a little bit

37:00

wobbly as well as the last size

37:02

of the company. Some users to start

37:05

to get a little bit suspicious because

37:07

more more customers are coming on board.

37:09

has some of them even start to

37:11

cool the phones Cursed because I give

37:13

one to a friend's he joins it.

37:16

he measly guess Raiders Simple as you

37:18

start to get paranoid about will. maybe

37:20

something is wrong with these phones. Fortunately

37:22

for the sp eyes this is around

37:24

sources the May Twenty Twenty. One time

37:26

period and they're ready to go in early

37:29

June. So. They have

37:31

the raids everyone gets arrested out of a

37:33

set it down to they'd put up like

37:35

out laughing skull imagery on the web page

37:38

to they tell everyone as as go us.

37:40

Is. Actually not too dissimilar from that. Neighbour

37:43

thinks they put a big message on the

37:45

website saying we seem running this company the

37:47

entire time. He's a little form where you

37:49

to submit your information for us to tell

37:51

you this your implicated in this investigation of

37:54

the Sleep. If I was a criminal I

37:56

would not allow that form as yeah V

37:58

re re stupid did anyone. Before I

38:00

don't know but why did by why

38:03

did see his ass A day or

38:05

two after that came up I see

38:07

signs. It's a random tweet from somebody

38:09

saying hey my phone is not working

38:12

I didn't include And the book social

38:14

Sciences pumped misguided know get the memo

38:16

says cities on Reddit looking for customer

38:18

support that's incredible. Assess the and news

38:21

and I'm right. It's the end of

38:23

this moment where the Sci runs a

38:25

phone company for criminals you mentioned earlier

38:27

in episode. Now there's must consume ritual

38:29

specially. Offer this. Summer. John practice

38:32

signal which is and encrypted the some

38:34

other ones is that weren't all moves

38:36

as a replacement for these companies as

38:38

it is the absence of hardware as a

38:40

move to suffer. So. After

38:42

the company was shut down I spoke

38:45

to people who sell if of defense

38:47

to criminals and one said is basically

38:49

impossible to build a customer base now

38:51

because customs don't trust their lights are

38:53

not going to buy this phone. Guess.

38:56

What's to say? no to Cspi been

38:58

suggested as one assists and the consequences

39:00

that is. A lot of these criminals

39:03

are moving to Signal, they are moving

39:05

to consumer apps and I just think

39:07

that brings up. A really

39:09

urgent question, which is that what

39:11

happens Now the Sp: I is

39:13

not going to stop investigating encrypted

39:15

communications. they told me as much.

39:18

I snuck into a Law Forefront

39:20

Only conference and one of the

39:22

agents on stage says I'm looking

39:24

forward to the next escalation of

39:26

this operation in Europe. We have

39:28

European authorities say they want to

39:30

scan the contents of encrypted messaging

39:32

see Sam initially, but I could

39:34

easily expands. This is just a

39:36

warning salt for what potentially could

39:38

happen. Now because. Yes,

39:40

The eyes and gonna pass itself on the

39:42

back and go home There and aggressive agency

39:45

has a law enforcement agencies they're going to

39:47

go was a criminals are and in some

39:49

cases as can be Consumer apps. We've

39:51

covered encryption from the consumer side for

39:53

long time. You've obviously covered it. cements

39:55

for one for some criminals. I for

39:57

one time the pressure. On. All of that.

40:00

The where companies to have backdoors around the

40:02

world to break open I message for break

40:04

open signal were the least provide a key

40:06

to the law enforcement agencies. The pressure waxes

40:08

and wanes for the answer for most of

40:10

the companies has been the same trap. Know

40:12

where does not gonna do it Apple says

40:14

the F B I were not gonna a

40:16

mock the for the I phone of the

40:19

shooter in California. The time out and. The.

40:21

Pressure is increasing, especially with things I see,

40:23

Santa, all this other stuff that is obviously

40:26

bad and kind of in the public consciousness

40:28

and a real way now. It

40:30

It's essential tech companies will crack

40:32

The decency wraps will eventually forced

40:34

open our inception. The law enforcement.

40:37

I don't think necessarily the can

40:39

see maps will crack. I don't

40:41

see signal. Changing.

40:43

It's very robust position on so we

40:45

provide minimal data to law enforcement when

40:48

know can. upper back stories will coach

40:50

or anything like that and I trust

40:52

that are you signal every single day

40:54

and I think that says interesting things.

40:56

What I think it will do is

40:59

create incentives for the sp I'd to

41:01

keep trying these highly novel or audacious

41:03

operations and like we to see them

41:05

trying to compromise another encrypted shop platform

41:08

consumer or criminal run or whatever or

41:10

the another alternative. If these apps

41:12

are not going to provide data to

41:14

law enforcement is more target is hacking

41:16

right? you know generally stuff like unopposed

41:18

Pegasus malware which goes on to your

41:20

phone's I think that broader society nice

41:22

have a conversation about those options because

41:24

the status quo is not an opposite

41:26

like that. we can't sell this assign

41:28

him way it was just no can

41:30

do anything because the F B I

41:32

and his partners are going to keep

41:34

doing things and is sort of up

41:36

to all of us and the tech

41:38

companies especially where that. Pressure and

41:40

assets is gonna be placed by this

41:43

be I potentially. We've

41:45

been in. A. Pretty novel period

41:47

where the tech companies has been very willing

41:49

to stand up to governments that does feel

41:51

like it's changing. Just in a

41:54

variety of ways. It's heels against

41:56

censoring distinct that stings like state

41:58

sponsor Takei or Pegasus by. There

42:00

any of other approaches it are getting

42:02

more and more novel. Getting.

42:04

The tech companies are going to allow them

42:07

to have any reason for going to try

42:09

to shut them down. As aggressive as they

42:11

have the past. but when we look at

42:13

not sat right and metre they are suing

42:15

center so groups because they didn't really like

42:18

the fact that and who for some people

42:20

know what's up but that say a sort

42:22

of process as a court case I'm as

42:24

it ebbs and flows rice and I think

42:26

it's race similar to the cat and mouse

42:28

game between law enforcement's the criminals they target

42:31

and sort of the vendors the provide sources.

42:33

clickability, the price of I phone. Exploits. I

42:35

don't have the latest but when I've

42:37

reported by talking to people who make

42:39

these exploits the government's is always going

42:41

up and then Apple makes and will

42:43

secure and then they find any work

42:46

round and he keeps going. keeps going,

42:48

keeps going. I personally the sir that

42:50

option where okay this be assembled Money

42:52

I can I don't know just signs

42:54

of money for something rather than compromising

42:56

entire chat tussle. The tech companies don't

42:58

like the side of his constant has

43:01

to six from abilities I'm as a

43:03

mess very annoying for them. Cspi. Don't

43:05

like the facts that's asking is not

43:07

sort of a turnkey solutions yes, annoying

43:09

for both parties is probably the best

43:11

solution right now. As messy as as

43:14

is. right? Because it protects the

43:16

hassle Consumers who are not doing anything

43:18

on what is the book is amazing

43:20

how they're from the it's It is

43:22

a fun read. Summer retreat A Crown

43:24

Books What's your favorite story in the

43:26

book? My favorite Stories: Absolutely the art

43:29

of a Criminal Court. Microsoft real name

43:31

Maximilian Risk it's I don't know my

43:33

skull Microsoft is had a friend in

43:35

prison to use the nickname Linux as

43:37

well. Listen, computer stuff going on there

43:39

are I would much rather be called

43:41

minute from Microsoft because he basically helps

43:43

expands these phones around. The world getting

43:46

all of his criminal network to use

43:48

them. He's planning his own crimes on

43:50

the platform as well. And then something

43:52

starts happening. His. Assets to

43:54

me laps guess raiders some of

43:56

his to came in ocean their

43:58

Hong Kong also. These ruins and

44:01

lots of things along the way

44:03

and he consistently blames other people

44:05

are other phones it is Nasa

44:07

the is a non phones and

44:09

is just this incredible artists this

44:11

criminal gangs his comeuppance which when

44:13

I came across that in these.

44:16

Masks of documents I've read in. the

44:18

people I've spoken to him know Microsoft,

44:20

the the are like fall into my

44:22

lap. I just could not as been

44:25

more lucky or happy This this this

44:27

person expresses. this is a bookmark writer

44:29

that's amazing again a character in the

44:31

book. Enough it's Dark Wire the incredible

44:33

true story of the largest thing operation

44:35

ever. Also cannot recommend for for media

44:37

enough to reach as work farid the

44:39

whole site is great really ring for

44:42

gastro thank you so much nicer thank

44:44

you so much. Really pisses. Thanks.

44:49

Again to just concentrate on the show his

44:51

book is Dark Wire the incredible true story

44:53

of the largest sting operation comes out on

44:55

June fourth by and were revivals you're into

44:57

decoder or the verbs this is your some

44:59

of these just pick up your thoughts or

45:02

this episode or what you like to hear

45:04

more of you can see mouse as he

45:06

twitter of overstock com we really do real

45:08

the in spree canadian directly on for on

45:10

that reckless troubling we also have such as

45:12

far as officers to fact check out it's

45:14

at each other part it's a lot sure

45:16

to sort of we share with your friends

45:18

subscriber your part us. Through that

45:20

process and is professor The Speakers

45:22

Oppression The Verge Pretty awesome. Deposit

45:24

network as episode is for news

45:26

because it's that is edited like

45:28

supervising producer to leave James Economies

45:30

and Christmas.